More ESPN Negative Press for Shanahan and Denver

[epicSocialism4tw]

• The much-reported trade that sent Denver cornerback Willie Middlebrooks to San Francisco in exchange for defensive end John Engelberger continues two dubious trends for Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. First, it represents the admission of another first-round flop at cornerback for the Broncos under Shanahan's stewardship. Second, it extends the team's penchant for collecting defensive ends from other teams, in part because the Broncos can't develop many of their own players at the position.

During Shanahan's tenure in Denver (1995-2004), the Broncos chose eight cornerbacks. Five of the choices were first-day picks, two were first-rounders, and none were chosen lower than the fifth stanza. The swap of Middlebrooks means that just two of the eight (2004 draft choices Jeremy LeSueur and Jeff Shoate) remain with the team. The other six -- Middlebrooks (first round, 2001), Tory James (second round, 1996), Darrius Johnson (fourth round, 1996), Chris Watson (third round, 1999), Darwin Brown (fifth round, 1999) and Deltha O'Neal (first round, 2000) -- totaled just 16 seasons and 49 starts in a Denver uniform. And 36 of those starts were by O'Neal, who fell so far out of favor by 2003 that Shanahan attempted to convert him to wide receiver, failed, and traded him to Cincinnati.

The dismal track record pretty much defines abject failure, doesn't it? There has been a lot of positive press for the three cornerbacks chosen by the Broncos this year -- Darrent Williams (second round), Karl Paymah (third) and Domonique Foxworth (third) -- and it's probably well-deserved, given the individual potential of all the prospects. But if any of them are to succeed, they are going to have to snap a long stretch of Denver draft pick futility at the position.

As for acquiring Engelberger, a pure 4-3 end who didn't fit into the 49ers' transition to a three-lineman front, well, why not? After all, Shanahan collects defensive ends like the bottom of a pocket collects lint. Counting Engelberger, the Broncos now have eight veteran defensive ends on the roster. Just one of them -- Trevor Pryce, who Denver attempted to trade this spring then retained when he accepted a pay cut -- is home-grown. The Broncos acquired Ebenezer Ekuban in a trade. They signed Courtney Brown, Marco Coleman, Raylee Johnson, Chukie Nwokorie and Anton Palepoi as veteran free agents.

That's a lot of defensive ends, by the way, and not all of them can make the regular-season roster.


__________________________________________________ ______________

Okay...we all get the DB thing (which isn't as dramatic as this guy makes it seem...you would think that Tory James, Deltha, Willie, and Lenny Walls never played a down), but to say that he hasnt developed D lineman since Pryce? What happened to Berry (who the media loves) and Hayward (the top FA DE this offseason)?

These guys continue to show that their team reporting is so shallow that it is worthless to even look at.

[Tredici]

In the meantime they ignore no other teams in the NFL seem capable of making a trade.

Shanahan just eats their lunch, don't he?

[Bronco9798]

Actually it's true, just with a bit of sarcasm. I hope we prove them all wrong this year though.

[elsid13]

Wow, we must real suck and be the worse team in the league. We cann't do anything right if listen/read ESPN.... Thank God, Gunther is in our division maybe some of his genuis can rub off Shanny and the rest of the front office. Maybe we should hire Saliberry to run our team????? Gee I am sorry that I cheer for the worse team in the league.

[bpc]

Well Middlebrooks maybe a bust... but at least we got a live body for him.

The people that write pieces like this about Shanahan are just mad that they can't get him run out of Denver unlike what they can do to many other coaches around the league. Job security is a B****.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

and after all this, Shanahan has only 1 losing season in Denver. Just imagine what could happen if he could draft corners and develop DLineman?

[ludo21]

i know that this press means crap, but its starting to annoy me that these writers dont do their own research before they write. They just look at the initial trade then slam it out of spite. I mean these guys probably just looked at the trade, then looked at the stats, then said, hey didnt they just grab a few browns lineman, o they must suck. (forget the fact that we got 4 d-lineman for cheap) and they all have tremendous potential(besides EE who has hit his ceiling, but hey 8-10 sacks a year aint bad)

sorry had to vent.

[Meck77]

I hear you ludo. I was writing up a long response but deleted it. The season just needs to start. Won't be long before the first "Get rid of Plummer" or "Fire Shanny Thread" hits the Mane when we lose a game. Things will be back to normal soon enough.

[SoCalBronco]

Pastabelly. Wow. No acquisition can be positive. We lose nothing here. Willie made only minimal impact in his career here and the entirety of the impact was in just a portion of one year, excluding special teams. We get a guy who got 6 sacks and 4 FFs last year basically for free and somehow they can still write negatively?

Have another donut, Len.

[bpc]

Seriously, Pasquerelli truely does hate us. I've never seen him attack a team so much. Its like every other week now.

I'm going to laugh my ass off when we have a year like we did in 96'. Thats what this year is starting to remind me of. Hopefully we don't repeat the playoff performance though.

[Jason in LA]

I guess I better step in and defend Shanny, since I adopted im.

Yeah, Shanny has had bad luck with CBs and DEs. But he's been great with RBs, O linemen, LBs, and pretty good with WRs (the team always has at least two good WRs, just can't get a 3rd one).

Nobody is perfect. Some GMs can spot talent really well in certain positions. Shanny can. He just doesn't do it as well with the DEs and CBs.

Like it was said before, Shanny has only had one losing season, and his team is always there late in the season in the playoff hunt.

You can look at a lot of GMs and see their long lists of failures.

[Play2win]

I think its pure genius by Shanahan to grab all these 4-3 guys, because its become so En-Vogue to have a 3-4 Defense. That plus the Redskin pick next year, Shanahan has Enfused this team with a hell of alot of talent in very little time for very little cost. This, of course all depends on how these guy execute and perform, but if they do, Shanahan has just reclaimed his title as "Mastermind"

[Raiders Rock]

Good Read

[Rocket 7]

If Pastabelly is that smart "why is he always on the couch with a remote and a burrito on Sunday's instead of in the booth with a clipboard and a headset on?" He is full of BS

[TexanBob]

Well, shucks. At least Shanny can acknowledge a problem and try to fix it rather than just blowing smoke about how great his players are when they aren't playing well.

Still, three DBs on the draft's first day smells a bit like desperation.

[Needa Pass Rush]

Good Read

Who read it to you? :charge:

[crazyhorse]

Guy makes a good point.

Why try to dump your best end, then go out picking the bones of the rest of the league for an end?

[SoCalBronco]

Guy makes a good point.

Why try to dump your best end, then go out picking the bones of the rest of the league for an end?

Because he was unwilling to get off of his 9 million dollar cap figure for this season.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Because he was unwilling to get off of his 9 million dollar cap figure for this season.

and his sack numbers make him out to be a better pass rusher than he really was

[Bronco9798]

Really, who cares what he says. It's up to the Broncos to go out this year and prove all these idiots wrong. There's only one way to shut them up. WIN!!!!!!

[crazyhorse]

Because he was unwilling to get off of his 9 million dollar cap figure for this season.

:nono:

[Dukes]

and his sack numbers make him out to be a better pass rusher than he really was

Take out the slaughter of the Titans, and his stats were only "good"

[Ballhawk]

It was nice of Pasta to leave Walls, Herndon, Berry and Hayward out of this Piece, the last three have signed some fairly decent contracts. James was injured as much as Middlebrooks has been. Predator is a tweener and not an everydown DE and plays more LB, but hey do not let facts get in the way of the Bronco Bashing.

Shanny does draft certain positions better than others. Or it should be said that he has better coaches working with the OL, RBs, LB and WR than Dline and CB. Thus the hiring of Patterson and Slowvak (sp).

[SoCalBronco]

:nono:

Its quite true, Crazyhorse. Denver had tried for several years prior to this year to get him to restructure as we normally do with the vets and he has refused every year. This year in particular, Denver did not have alot of cap room to work with so naturally they tried with Trevor again and he refused yet again. While I understand that it was not his fault and he was hurt in the act of playing football, he basically sat out this season and got approximately 5 million for doing nothing. He now has injury concerns and is 29. These facts should have made Trevor more reasonable when asked to restructure to help the team. Everyone has done it. Rod has done it repeatedly. Jake did it for us. Lynch etc. I realize Trevor was scared, perhaps in the back of his mind he thought that he wont return to where he was as a player so he wants to keep every dime he can and accumulate every dollar he can. Certainly a reasonable perspective.

But at the same time, Denver was squeezed right up against the cap and needed money. Now I dont hold it against players when they ask to redo and hold out because i dont believe in the "you signed the contract, honor it" theory, so I am not estopped from supporting the team when they ask a player to restructure to benefit the team. We needed that money, badly. It killed us in FA. Trevor's cap figure was an albatross on our necks. He didnt lift a finger to help. We begged him to reduce it and he refused yet again. We had to offer people backloaded contracts and we ended up getting beaten to a pulp in the early days of free agency. Our top targets went off the board so quick that we had to totally configure "The Plan". Since Trevor was acting this way we had to find a way to get him out of here so we told him, fine you keep your damn money but we will trade you. In theory, Trevor should have liked this, he keeps his whole salary. But he didnt lift a finger on that front either to help the front office. We asked them to help us find him a new home and they didnt help their either. Trevor, via his agent, also threatened Denver, implying if he was outright released (something surely he didnt want as he could never get anything near as much as 9 million guaranteed given his injury situation on the open mark) he would go to the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers. It was only after he got it through his ****ing skull that even if he took a substantial reduction in base salary from about 9 million to around 6 million, that 6 million was still far higher than what he would get in terms of a guaranteed sum on the market. By the time he bought in to this, all of our key targets were gone and we had exacerbated the situation by blowing the little wad we had on ****ing Ian Gold.

Trevor created alot of problems and hardship for the team this offseason. I still havent forgiven him for that and i wont.

[crazyhorse]

Its quite true, Crazyhorse. Denver had tried for several years prior to this year to get him to restructure as we normally do with the vets and he has refused every year. This year in particular, Denver did not have alot of cap room to work with so naturally they tried with Trevor again and he refused yet again. While I understand that it was not his fault and he was hurt in the act of playing football, he basically sat out this season and got approximately 5 million for doing nothing. He now has injury concerns and is 29. These facts should have made Trevor more reasonable when asked to restructure to help the team. Everyone has done it. Rod has done it repeatedly. Jake did it for us. Lynch etc. I realize Trevor was scared, perhaps in the back of his mind he thought that he wont return to where he was as a player so he wants to keep every dime he can and accumulate every dollar he can. Certainly a reasonable perspective.

But at the same time, Denver was squeezed right up against the cap and needed money. Now I dont hold it against players when they ask to restructure and hold out because i dont believe in the "you signed the contract, honor it" theory, so I am not estopped from supporting the team when they ask a player to restructure to benefit the team. We needed that money, badly. It killed us in FA. Trevor's cap figure was an albatross on our necks. He didnt lift a finger to help. We begged him to reduce it and he refused yet again. We had to offer people backloaded contracts and we ended up getting beaten to a pulp in the early days of free agency. Our top targets went off the board so quick that we had to totally configure "The Plan". Since Trevor was acting this way we had to find a way to get him out of here so we told him, fine you keep your damn money but we will trade you. In theory, Trevor should have liked this, he keeps his whole salary. But he didnt lift a finger on that front either to help the front office. We asked them to help us find him a new home and they didnt help their either. Trevor, via his agent, also threatened Denver, implying if he was outright released (something surely he didnt want as he could never get anything near as much as 9 million guaranteed given his injury situation on the open mark) he would go to the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers. It was only after he got it through his ****ing skull that even if he took a substantial reduction in base salary from about 9 million to around 6 million, that 6 million was still far higher than what he would get in terms of a guaranteed sum on the market. By the time he bought in to this, all of our key targets were gone and we had exacerbated the situation by blowing the little wad we had on ****ing Ian Gold.

Trevor created alot of problems and hardship for the team this offseason. I still havent forgiven him for that and i wont.

I remember Pryce being surprized that he was put up for trade without talking money thsi off season. Or was that someone else?

[SoCalBronco]

I remember Pryce being surprized that he was put up for trade without talking money thsi off season. Or was that someone else?

That's quite correct, he said in a Denver Post article that they never contacted him about money. The team believed differently. I tend to think Trevor was a liar there. The team was up against the cap and was re-doing everyone in order to be a semi-active player. It was well known that they ask vets every year and its well known that Trevor has refused every year. In addition, his cap figure was very large and that was public info so i feel pretty comfortable with the notion that he was openly lying when he made that statement.

[NFLBRONCO]

I haven't liked many picks by Shanny either at CB. Many IMO are reaches. I think its a little harsh experts have to realize the whole picture we are the only team since 95 to not have a high pick. The only few times we had a high choice only 83 draft paid off. In 91 and 2000 IMO they were weak drafts. Lets see what we do in 06 draft with a stronger draft pool. Hell this is our first time with 2 #1's. I think most teams would do bad picking where we usually do. The elite teams landed a Franchise player or had multiple picks to load up.

[Tombstone RJ]

I'd love to compare all the articles pastabelly has wrote about the Broncos the last 4 years with all the articles he has written about his favorite team, the Steelers. Even though, aside from the Steelers great year last season, they have done little to warrant pastabelly's admiration, just as the Broncos have done little to warrant his misplaced loathing. Shanahan and Cowher are both good coaches and run respectable franchises, yet every chance pastabelly gets to spit on Shanahan, he does so with strange efficiency.

[TheReverend]

Its quite true, Crazyhorse. Denver had tried for several years prior to this year to get him to restructure as we normally do with the vets and he has refused every year. This year in particular, Denver did not have alot of cap room to work with so naturally they tried with Trevor again and he refused yet again. While I understand that it was not his fault and he was hurt in the act of playing football, he basically sat out this season and got approximately 5 million for doing nothing. He now has injury concerns and is 29. These facts should have made Trevor more reasonable when asked to restructure to help the team. Everyone has done it. Rod has done it repeatedly. Jake did it for us. Lynch etc. I realize Trevor was scared, perhaps in the back of his mind he thought that he wont return to where he was as a player so he wants to keep every dime he can and accumulate every dollar he can. Certainly a reasonable perspective.

But at the same time, Denver was squeezed right up against the cap and needed money. Now I dont hold it against players when they ask to redo and hold out because i dont believe in the "you signed the contract, honor it" theory, so I am not estopped from supporting the team when they ask a player to restructure to benefit the team. We needed that money, badly. It killed us in FA. Trevor's cap figure was an albatross on our necks. He didnt lift a finger to help. We begged him to reduce it and he refused yet again. We had to offer people backloaded contracts and we ended up getting beaten to a pulp in the early days of free agency. Our top targets went off the board so quick that we had to totally configure "The Plan". Since Trevor was acting this way we had to find a way to get him out of here so we told him, fine you keep your damn money but we will trade you. In theory, Trevor should have liked this, he keeps his whole salary. But he didnt lift a finger on that front either to help the front office. We asked them to help us find him a new home and they didnt help their either. Trevor, via his agent, also threatened Denver, implying if he was outright released (something surely he didnt want as he could never get anything near as much as 9 million guaranteed given his injury situation on the open mark) he would go to the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers. It was only after he got it through his ****ing skull that even if he took a substantial reduction in base salary from about 9 million to around 6 million, that 6 million was still far higher than what he would get in terms of a guaranteed sum on the market. By the time he bought in to this, all of our key targets were gone and we had exacerbated the situation by blowing the little wad we had on ****ing Ian Gold.

Trevor created alot of problems and hardship for the team this offseason. I still havent forgiven him for that and i wont.

Taking rumors personally SoCal?

[SoCalBronco]

Taking rumors personally SoCal?

Its not rumors, Reverend. All of this stuff is either from the papers or Wabbit, Mediator or Heav and much was cross-confirmed by all of them, especially the part about Trevor constantly refusing to restructure while our FA "Plan" went up in flames in early April. That's why Shanahan and Sundquist were using completely absolute language regarding Trevor's future for weeks until we saw 2 or 3 days before their restructuring Ted Sundquist first say there is still an outside chance that he could come back and then a day later, Shanny putting it at "50-50" and then ofcourse we saw that RMN article when Trevor said "pay me now or pay me later i dont care" which was total BS, as if he had no problems with the contract when he had acted like a little biatch and left us twisting in the wind as every single target went off the board one by one.

[Tombstone RJ]

Its quite true, Crazyhorse. Denver had tried for several years prior to this year to get him to restructure as we normally do with the vets and he has refused every year. This year in particular, Denver did not have alot of cap room to work with so naturally they tried with Trevor again and he refused yet again. While I understand that it was not his fault and he was hurt in the act of playing football, he basically sat out this season and got approximately 5 million for doing nothing. He now has injury concerns and is 29. These facts should have made Trevor more reasonable when asked to restructure to help the team. Everyone has done it. Rod has done it repeatedly. Jake did it for us. Lynch etc. I realize Trevor was scared, perhaps in the back of his mind he thought that he wont return to where he was as a player so he wants to keep every dime he can and accumulate every dollar he can. Certainly a reasonable perspective.

But at the same time, Denver was squeezed right up against the cap and needed money. Now I dont hold it against players when they ask to redo and hold out because i dont believe in the "you signed the contract, honor it" theory, so I am not estopped from supporting the team when they ask a player to restructure to benefit the team. We needed that money, badly. It killed us in FA. Trevor's cap figure was an albatross on our necks. He didnt lift a finger to help. We begged him to reduce it and he refused yet again. We had to offer people backloaded contracts and we ended up getting beaten to a pulp in the early days of free agency. Our top targets went off the board so quick that we had to totally configure "The Plan". Since Trevor was acting this way we had to find a way to get him out of here so we told him, fine you keep your damn money but we will trade you. In theory, Trevor should have liked this, he keeps his whole salary. But he didnt lift a finger on that front either to help the front office. We asked them to help us find him a new home and they didnt help their either. Trevor, via his agent, also threatened Denver, implying if he was outright released (something surely he didnt want as he could never get anything near as much as 9 million guaranteed given his injury situation on the open mark) he would go to the Raiders, Chiefs or Chargers. It was only after he got it through his ****ing skull that even if he took a substantial reduction in base salary from about 9 million to around 6 million, that 6 million was still far higher than what he would get in terms of a guaranteed sum on the market. By the time he bought in to this, all of our key targets were gone and we had exacerbated the situation by blowing the little wad we had on ****ing Ian Gold.

Trevor created alot of problems and hardship for the team this offseason. I still havent forgiven him for that and i wont.

Fact of the matter is that the Broncos tried to trade Trevor, but no teams were interested because he has a fat contract, he has back problems, and he is not getting any younger. Plus the fact that if he refused to renegotiate, the Broncos would have released him anyway.

Trevor saw the writing on the wall and came to his senses. He restructured his contract and now he has the ability to stick with the same team that drafted him, and still make a butt load of money.

[SoCalBronco]

Fact of the matter is that the Broncos tried to trade Trevor, but no teams were interested because he has a fat contract, he has back problems, and he is not getting any younger. Plus the fact that if he refused to renegotiate, the Broncos would have released him anyway.

Trevor saw the writing on the wall and came to his senses. He renegotiated his contract and now he has the ability to stick with the same team that drafted him, and still make a butt load of money.

Id be surprised if he was still here next year. His idiocy in waiting too long to finally recognize the parameters of the situation significantly wounded Denver this offseason. Next year, his cap figure is about 10 million. Think he is gonna restructure again if he has a great season? No. And the base salary is going to keep getting higher, then on to about 12 million i believe (need confirmation from Herc about the exact details, but the general concept is that it will keep ballooning and up and till this year even when he had no leverage he held on to it till the very end bitterly refusing to restructure it down until he got 70 percent of what it was to be guaranteed). If he has a great year, Denver will still try and deal him. They will reason, correctly, that he proved the injury concerns are bogus and he played great so that means some teams are gonna give us some good value for him. Likewise, that value is likely going to be far greater long term than another year or two of very productive play since by the beginning of the 2006 season he will be 31.

If he has a good but not great season, we will still probably deal him. We could probably get something for him and the age issue is still there. Here, though, there is more of a chance that he would stay than if he had a great season but it depends on the predictive ability of both sides in terms of measuring what the market will be. Lets say Denver says, okay, you got 8 sacks last year and generally played "okay", so we will ask you to lop off half of your 12 million salary or more than that. If Trevor doesnt waste time being stupid and comes to the conclusion that its likely the market will not give him as much as 5 million in guaranteed pay, he'll stay, if not, he'll go. But at least, if he is good instead of great, he will start to weigh what he would otherwise get. If he is great, not only will he feel he is worth the 12 million but he will also get pissed off that he played great and they are still "b****ing at him to cut his salary" and just will refuse to listen to anything.

If Trevor is average or poor, we probably dont have a trading partner, but by the same token our fear of him going to a division rival is reduced since he is showing that he cant hack it anymore anyway.

[SoCalBronco]

Herc has said its very important to Denver's future cap health to get Trevor's future cap numbers off the books. Its going to be like a Boa Constrictor choking us. Wont be as bad next year since the rest of the cap looks solid according to Herc but it is still alot of deadweight.

[Tombstone RJ]

Id be surprised if he was still here next year. His idiocy in waiting too long to finally recognize the parameters of the situation significantly wounded Denver this offseason. Next year, his cap figure is about 10 million. Think he is gonna restructure again if he has a great season? No. And the base salary is going to keep getting higher, then on to about 12 million i believe (need confirmation from Herc about the exact details, but the general concept is that it will keep ballooning and up and till this year even when he had no leverage he held on to it till the very end bitterly refusing to restructure it down until he got 70 percent of what it was to be guaranteed). If he has a great year, Denver will still try and deal him. They will reason, correctly, that he proved the injury concerns are bogus and he played great so that means some teams are gonna give us some good value for him. Likewise, that value is likely going to be far greater long term than another year or two of very productive play since by the beginning of the 2006 season he will be 31.

If he has a good but not great season, we will still probably deal him. We could probably get something for him and the age issue is still there. Here, though, there is more of a chance that he would stay than if he had a great season but it depends on the predictive ability of both sides in terms of measuring what the market will be. Lets say Denver says, okay, you got 8 sacks last year and generally played "okay", so we will ask you to lop off half of your 12 million salary or more than that. If Trevor doesnt waste time being stupid and comes to the conclusion that its likely the market will not give him as much as 5 million in guaranteed pay, he'll stay, if not, he'll go. But at least, if he is good instead of great, he will start to weigh what he would otherwise get. If he is great, not only will he feel he is worth the 12 million but he will also get pissed off that he played great and they are still "b****ing at him to cut his salary" and just will refuse to listen to anything.

If Trevor is average or poor, we probably dont have a trading partner, but by the same token our fear of him going to a division rival is reduced since he is showing that he cant hack it anymore anyway.

Your making an awful lot of assumptions SoCal. Fact of the matter is the Broncos back loaded his contract and now they have to deal with it. That is Shanny and Sundquist's fault, not Trevor's. Sure, I agree, he should be more willing to step up to the plate quicker to restructure, because he's gonna get his guaranteed money regardless, but to blame the current situation on him is a little unfair. This is the Broncos way of maxing out their credit card and now they have to pay.

[Tombstone RJ]

Herc has said its very important to Denver's future cap health to get Trevor's future cap numbers off the books. Its going to be like a Boa Constrictor choking us. Wont be as bad next year since the rest of the cap looks solid according to Herc but it is still alot of deadweight.

Again, this is the Bronco's fault, not Trevor's. I believe in front loading contracts as much as possible, so situations like this are avoided, but that is probably easier said than done. Either way, the Broncos negotiated the contract, now its time to deal with the ramifications.

[Jason in LA]

I think its pure genius by Shanahan to grab all these 4-3 guys, because its become so En-Vogue to have a 3-4 Defense. That plus the Redskin pick next year, Shanahan has Enfused this team with a hell of alot of talent in very little time for very little cost. This, of course all depends on how these guy execute and perform, but if they do, Shanahan has just reclaimed his title as "Mastermind"

That's a great point. Many of these teams that are moving to the 3-4 are dumping good 4-3 ends. The Broncos have been smart to pickup these guys.

The only question about this line is health. There is no question that this line is way more talented than last years line. But health might not be as big of an issue as it was a few months ago. They have so many that they'll be in a rotation, limiting their chances of getting hurt. They'll all always be fresh. Also, they all can't get hurt. If a couple of them go down there is still a ton of talent.

There is no question that this line is way better than last year's line. This line will be a strength, not a weakness. If this line can live up to it's potenial, this will be a very special defense.

Who cares if this line is home grown? That really doesn't matter. A lot of the key members of the Super Bowl teams weren't home grown.

[SoCalBronco]

Your making an awful lot of assumptions SoCal. Fact of the matter is the Broncos back loaded his contract and now they have to deal with it. That is Shanny and Sundquist's fault, not Trevor's. Sure, I agree, he should be more willing to step up to the plate quicker to restructure, because he's gonna get his guaranteed money regardless, but to blame the current situation on him is a little unfair. This is the Broncos way of maxing out their credit card and now they have to pay.

Yes I am making assumptions but i think the scenario i laid out is forseeable. Yes we backloaded it. But, the beauty of the NFL salary cap on the management side is that all of that backloaded money will never cause any harm because its not guaranteed and thus it likely will never be paid. I dont think its important that we backloaded it, he isnt going to see any of it and we wont be on the hook for any of it if we cut him or trade him.

You are right on the Broncos maxing out on the credit card though. Nothing absolutely huge but significant things here and there added up. A big part is IHOP's settlement whereby i think we had to account for about 3 million in dead money (but at least it opened up a future 40 million over a sum of years slot that wasnt expected to be there) this year, we also had to account for the rest of Mobley's bonus i think, not sure. But there was a large part of the cap that wasnt really the team's fault or anyone's fault it was just timing. I think the second half of Wilson's initial bonus was paid this year and Plummer's option, those were prolly prorated but it had some effect i think together.

Im not Herc but i think we will be in good shape the next few years if we can get Trevor off the cap. Outside of Wilson, Bailey and Plummer there arent really any high salaries at all on the team. But, even though we will have some room to wiggle i dont think we are going to go out and get players as much as i would usually expect next year since the team is going to have to do Lenny's new contract if he plays well (assuming the market doesnt go beyond what we can pay) and is going to try and do Lelie's new deal since by that time he will have only 1 year left on the deal. We really got a great bargain getting Putzier for just 12 million over 5 years.

[Kaylore]

I think its funny that we're able to trade away undeveloped talent for a solid player and yet that makes Shanahan worthy of more criticism. I he didn't trade him away, he would be nagging him still.

I heard Schlereth on the radio today, and he went out of his way to say that the Broncos aren't going anywhere this season. Sometimes attacking a coach or player gets really popular, and everyone starts joining in. Remember how the media hated Lelie last year and wouldn't shut up about it? I do. All we need to do is perform and have a good season and then the media will just change the subject and hope no one notices.

[wabbit]

If we do end up trading Pryce, my money is on Dallas as his destination.

Pat Bowlen & Jerry Jones talked about a possible trade during owners meetings, but as SoCal mentioned, the untested back, as well as the intransigent posture on salary worried the Cowboys...and Cincinnati, a late bidder, for that matter.

If Pryce proves the back is fine, I agree a trade of some kind is almost guaranteed...and the three teams most likely to be vying for his services will be Dallas, Seattle & St. Louis...all of whom inquired more than once about the guy.

Other teams that expressed interest in Pryce & had, at least more than one discussion with the Broncos about him included the NY Giants, NY Jets, Cleveland (oddly enough, but true), Cincinnati, Houston, Green Bay, Tampa Bay, Arizona & Jacksonville...not to mention interest shown by KC, Oakland & San Diego, but that aint happenin'.

[sirhcyennek81]

Broncos have lost what, exactly? a talented DB who could not stay healthy for a de who has started 58 games and fits what we are trying to do here. Broncos problem was lack of passrush at key moments. Not depth at corner. A Manning on his ass doesnt torch a rookie cb in Indi last season. Course, I am but a humble homer, and know nothing of the reality of putting as many talented players on the field at the same time as possible...

[TheReverend]

Its not rumors, Reverend. All of this stuff is either from the papers or Wabbit, Mediator or Heav and much was cross-confirmed by all of them, especially the part about Trevor constantly refusing to restructure while our FA "Plan" went up in flames in early April. That's why Shanahan and Sundquist were using completely absolute language regarding Trevor's future for weeks until we saw 2 or 3 days before their restructuring Ted Sundquist first say there is still an outside chance that he could come back and then a day later, Shanny putting it at "50-50" and then ofcourse we saw that RMN article when Trevor said "pay me now or pay me later i dont care" which was total BS, as if he had no problems with the contract when he had acted like a little biatch and left us twisting in the wind as every single target went off the board one by one.

So be it. Im very happy with the way things worked out and I think week 1 when Trevors in the QBs face all day youll have forgiven him.

[GoHAM]

But, even though we will have some room to wiggle i dont think we are going to go out and get players as much as i would usually expect next year since the team is going to have to do Lenny's new contract if he plays well (assuming the market doesnt go beyond what we can pay) and is going to try and do Lelie's new deal since by that time he will have only 1 year left on the deal. We really got a great bargain getting Putzier for just 12 million over 5 years.

True, and let's also not forget that Lepsis will also need to be paid next year, provided he continues to play well at LT.

[baja]

True, and let's also not forget that Lepsis will also need to be paid next year, provided he continues to play well at LT.

There is Warren as well and I think Brown is due too.

[rbackfactory80]

Pastabelly go to hell you arrogant piece of ****.

[Cito Pelon]

What hurt Denver a lot was having their assistant coaches raided year after year post B2B.

As for DB's Deltha is still a starter, as is James. James I remember got a fantastic offer from Oakland that Denver just couldn't match. Same with Berry and Hayward. And it's difficult to get stud Dl guys when you pick at 25 most years.

If the guy wanted to bag on Den for not moving up in the first round at times, that might be a valid criticism, but most of this crap we see from the national media is because they have to put out a certain amount of words every day. They have contracts too.

They also have parties to attend where they can pontificate and try to nail groupies. Then they have to rush home and try to fit together a few paragraphs from what their interns have gathered. And you see what we get.

One of the few national shows I've seen that is worth a crap is that one with Wilbon, I can't remember the name, a little help please, where they have the guy at the end of the show that has picked out all their mistakes and they have to eat the crow for where they jacked up.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'm taking a somewhat different view of this. The modern era has not been kind to coaches who hold the dual role of coach/GM. I think it's to much for one guy to handle and I do believe Shanny's drafts have suffered as a result of Bowlen not having another guy in the GM role. Denver has built mainly through FA in the Shanahan era and while we have been successful in the draft in some respects (runners and OL for example) we've received some justly deserved criticism here. ESPN is not the only critic of Shannahan's drafts. Quite a few of us have also criticized how he drafts. If Mike is going to get credit for making good trades, we should also realize why he's had to make some of these trades. Let's face it...would we rather have a marginal defensive end prospect with 6 sacks to his credit or a big, fast shutdown corner that we thought we had when WM was drafted? I'd rather have the shutdown CB. Granted, Middlebrooks has been hurt but that's been part of Shanny's legacy...gambling on guys who were medical risks and trying to beat the odds. When you do that a lot, you win some but you also lose a lot. My point is this: since we know that we've not had great luck developing our own CB's and DE's, or quarterbacks either for that matter, why does Shanny not take steps to rectify this? Shakeups in scouting, coaching... maybe bringing in somebody else when it comes time to evaluate these positions. He gets advice from Bobby Turner on RB's, why not find the CB equivalent of Turner and use his advice? A GM who was not also the coach could do that a lot easier. I was a staunch supporter of Shanny's in everything he did untill recently because he brought us the Bowls, but it's time Mike show he can do it without John Elway. Aspiring to make the playoffs is not what I want to reach for; winning it all again is the goal. I don't realistically see us doing that unless we become more New England like in our drafts. I don't see that happening untill Mike makes some changes, starting with focusing on the coaching job instead of wearing 2 hats.

[Bronco9798]

Someone help me out here. Wasn't Middlebrooks actually recommended to Shanny by an assistant who was on the Broncos staff that coached Middlebrooks in College? Or am I thinking of someone else? I know Shanny makes the final decision but he is always influenced by his scouts and assistants.

[footstepsfrom#27]

That sounds familiar to me too. What I'm saying is that we seem to be weak in our scouting dept when it comes to certain positions and we're always spending big FA money to make up the difference. How tough can it be to go out and find some scouts who know how to judge DB talent? I don't understand why we don't do it.

[SoCalBronco]

I'm taking a somewhat different view of this. The modern era has not been kind to coaches who hold the dual role of coach/GM. I think it's to much for one guy to handle and I do believe Shanny's drafts have suffered as a result of Bowlen not having another guy in the GM role. Denver has built mainly through FA in the Shanahan era and while we have been successful in the draft in some respects (runners and OL for example) we've received some justly deserved criticism here. ESPN is not the only critic of Shannahan's drafts. Quite a few of us have also criticized how he drafts. If Mike is going to get credit for making good trades, we should also realize why he's had to make some of these trades. Let's face it...would we rather have a marginal defensive end prospect with 6 sacks to his credit or a big, fast shutdown corner that we thought we had when WM was drafted? I'd rather have the shutdown CB. Granted, Middlebrooks has been hurt but that's been part of Shanny's legacy...gambling on guys who were medical risks and trying to beat the odds. When you do that a lot, you win some but you also lose a lot. My point is this: since we know that we've not had great luck developing our own CB's and DE's, or quarterbacks either for that matter, why does Shanny not take steps to rectify this? Shakeups in scouting, coaching... maybe bringing in somebody else when it comes time to evaluate these positions. He gets advice from Bobby Turner on RB's, why not find the CB equivalent of Turner and use his advice? A GM who was not also the coach could do that a lot easier. I was a staunch supporter of Shanny's in everything he did untill recently because he brought us the Bowls, but it's time Mike show he can do it without John Elway. Aspiring to make the playoffs is not what I want to reach for; winning it all again is the goal. I don't realistically see us doing that unless we become more New England like in our drafts. I don't see that happening untill Mike makes some changes, starting with focusing on the coaching job instead of wearing 2 hats.

Despite his odd numbered year botches, i think Shanny is underrated when it comes to the draft. Contrary to popular belief, we actually do very well in the early rounds of the draft. For the 5 draft period from 2000-2004, we have hit on 60% of our first rounders (the rule of thumb states that a 50 percent hit rate in the first round is "average"), and a whopping 71% of our second rounders.

Currently, while you are correct in saying that Denver uses FA to build its rosters, exactly 50% of the projected 2005 starting 22 will be Shanny draft picks/undrafted FAs he acquired right after the draft. If Monsanto Pope starts, that percentage will increase to 54.5%. So we get homegrown talent too, obviously we can evaluate some positions better than others though.

[yavoon]

Your making an awful lot of assumptions SoCal. Fact of the matter is the Broncos back loaded his contract and now they have to deal with it. That is Shanny and Sundquist's fault, not Trevor's. Sure, I agree, he should be more willing to step up to the plate quicker to restructure, because he's gonna get his guaranteed money regardless, but to blame the current situation on him is a little unfair. This is the Broncos way of maxing out their credit card and now they have to pay.

I agree here, the broncos have somewhat fallen behind the contract curve here. they are constantly starved for space, constantly leveraging restructurings into signing bonuses, which of course still counts just not all at once. we have also shown relatively incapable of working out good deals for our midlevel talent(see herndon), we either have to jump on these guys faster, or find more creative ways to sign them. u can't just allow all ur good GM decisions to be swept away in 2-4 years, it leaves the team scrambling.

[Atlas]

Still, three DBs on the draft's first day smells a bit like desperation.

I agree BUT you have to ask yourself "Did Shanny hit on the draft??" IF he did then Shannny wins. I'ts that simple... It's a win or lose preposition...which side are you on???

[wabbit]

Shanahan has made changes, and has shaken up the scouting department...twice.

He fired David Gibbs, demoted Jacob Burney & released Keith Millard at the end of the season last year.

He added an outstanding new coach in Tim Brewster from San Diego...Andre Patterson is a guy more in-line with Larry Coyers way of thinking, although Burney ostensibly retains the title of D-line coach.

There are many who believe Special Teams/LB coach Kirk Doll will become an NFL Head Coach some day relatively soon...he's an innovator who will turn Denver's Special Teams into one of the best in the league this year.

Shanahan, like Vermeil, Bellichick & a few others don't make changes just to make changes...and they are excellent evaluators of coaching talent.

Shanahan takes his knocks as a personnel guy...and he's brought that on himself, frankly, but, recognizing that, he has delegated more & more authority to people he knows can make good decisions and depends on them more than ever.

The off-season moves this year are a great example of a team management approach & it's what makes good coaches great.

Chemistry begins with the coaches and spreads to the players...not really the other way around.

[SoCalBronco]

Great post Wabbit. I am excited to see what Coach Doll can do with our backers and how Coach Brewster can further develop Putzier.

[SoCalBronco]

we have also shown relatively incapable of working out good deals for our midlevel talent(see herndon), we either have to jump on these guys faster, or find more creative ways to sign them. u can't just allow all ur good GM decisions to be swept away in 2-4 years, it leaves the team scrambling.

I agree to an extent yavoon but with some of the midlevel talent that you refer to, its somewhat unfair to blame the Broncos for not working out deals sooner. I think Herndon knew that there wasnt that much talent out on the FA market this year and that he would get something better than what he was worth. He saw that guy Anthony Henry i think, get a bonus almost at 10 million and Baxter got a very high bonus. None of these guys are even approaching elite status at corner. I dont think it was in Herndon's interest to negotiate with Denver in good faith before the Free Agency period opened up. Same with Hayward. He knew there wasnt **** at DE on the market. It would be stupid to listen to the team's offer to negotiate earlier and get something done earlier. You bide your time when you know demand will exceed supply and wait till the market opens for trading. The incentives built in discourage the player and agent from working with the team to get something done before FA begins. Once Hayward got 3 sacks in Tennessee on Christmas Eve to get his sack totals into double digits, there was no way he was going to take a deal from us before testing the market.

What about last year you might ask? Well, last year guys like Herndon and Hayward would probably not be willing to go for an extension since Denver wouldnt have offered them alot at the time. At the time, Denver viewed Reggie as purely a product of Trevor's disruptiveness on the line and a guy who wasnt a complete DE. Their offer would factor in these beliefs. Reggie would in response, very likely just try and play out the season and hope that his contract season would be a breakout season so he really could "get paid", which is, on the surface what happened. Same thing with Herndon. He was a backup. You think they were going to offer him something big time as a backup? He knew Walls had injury issues, if he can get in there and start a few games and show the league he can play, he'll get paid.

[Atlas]

Shanahan has made changes, and has shaken up the scouting department...twice.

He fired David Gibbs, demoted Jacob Burney & released Keith Millard at the end of the season last year.

He added an outstanding new coach in Tim Brewster from San Diego...Andre Patterson is a guy more in-line with Larry Coyers way of thinking, although Burney ostensibly retains the title of D-line coach.

There are many who believe Special Teams/LB coach Kirk Doll will become an NFL Head Coach some day relatively soon...he's an innovator who will turn Denver's Special Teams into one of the best in the league this year.

Shanahan, like Vermeil, Bellichick & a few others don't make changes just to make changes...and they are excellent evaluators of coaching talent.

Shanahan takes his knocks as a personnel guy...and he's brought that on himself, frankly, but, recognizing that, he has delegated more & more authority to people he knows can make good decisions and depends on them more than ever.

The off-season moves this year are a great example of a team management approach & it's what makes good coaches great.

Chemistry begins with the coaches and spreads to the players...not really the other way around.

Have you been copying my notes or are you just that smart???

[watermock]

What hurt Denver a lot was having their assistant coaches raided year after year post B2B.

Your becoming more amusing than irrritating.

Denver has one of the most stable coaching staffs in the NFL.

Noone has "Raided" Denver at all. I doubt you can name a single coach.

Name one. Greg Robinson? Who was fired by Kansas City?

Maybe Alex Gibbs who retired?. Gibbs wasn't raided.

I'm still wating for a take.

[yavoon]

I agree to an extent yavoon but with some of the midlevel talent that you refer to, its somewhat unfair to blame the Broncos for not working out deals sooner. I think Herndon knew that there wasnt that much talent out on the FA market this year and that he would get something better than what he was worth. He saw that guy Anthony Henry i think, get a bonus almost at 10 million and Baxter got a very high bonus. None of these guys are even approaching elite status at corner. I dont think it was in Herndon's interest to negotiate with Denver in good faith before the Free Agency period opened up. Same with Hayward. He knew there wasnt **** at DE on the market. It would be stupid to listen to the team's offer to negotiate earlier and get something done earlier. You bide your time when you know demand will exceed supply and wait till the market opens for trading. The incentives built in discourage the player and agent from working with the team to get something done before FA begins. Once Hayward got 3 sacks in Tennessee on Christmas Eve to get his sack totals into double digits, there was no way he was going to take a deal from us before testing the market.

What about last year you might ask? Well, last year guys like Herndon and Hayward would probably not be willing to go for an extension since Denver wouldnt have offered them alot at the time. At the time, Denver viewed Reggie as purely a product of Trevor's disruptiveness on the line and a guy who wasnt a complete DE. Their offer would factor in these beliefs. Reggie would in response, very likely just try and play out the season and hope that his contract season would be a breakout season so he really could "get paid", which is, on the surface what happened. Same thing with Herndon. He was a backup. You think they were going to offer him something big time as a backup? He knew Walls had injury issues, if he can get in there and start a few games and show the league he can play, he'll get paid.

I'm sure there's a story for all of em. in the end though the results aren't there. also I dont like how everytime a player leaves denver he was massively overpaid. berry left and ppl were like, "good riddance, arizona just overpaid." then he goes and gets what? 14 sacks? I think denver being rammed against the cap is more a reason that the midlevel talent leaves than teams just swooning in and "massively overpaying" all of denvers players.

[Cito Pelon]

I agree here, the broncos have somewhat fallen behind the contract curve here. they are constantly starved for space, constantly leveraging restructurings into signing bonuses, which of course still counts just not all at once. we have also shown relatively incapable of working out good deals for our midlevel talent(see herndon), we either have to jump on these guys faster, or find more creative ways to sign them. u can't just allow all ur good GM decisions to be swept away in 2-4 years, it leaves the team scrambling.

Yeah, on the one hand I have to agree with that. Had arguments before over the relative merits of doing a purge like the Titans did last year and this year, versus scrambling every year to put together a decent roster by restructuring year-after-year with the "Core Players."

There is a lot of merit to going with the non-purge method. Once you have a good system in place, a plug-and-play system, you contend every year, you're only a "few plays or a few players away" from a Championship of some kind - every year.

On the other hand, it sure looks to me if you want to make that system work, the FO has to get the right combo of assistant coaches in to make a plug-and-play system work. That looks more and more to me like the key.

And Denver has made some moves to get a solid coaching staff in place. Could be the best overall coaching staff Denver has had since '98.

[SoCalBronco]

I'm sure there's a story for all of em. in the end though the results aren't there. also I dont like how everytime a player leaves denver he was massively overpaid. berry left and ppl were like, "good riddance, arizona just overpaid." then he goes and gets what? 14 sacks? I think denver being rammed against the cap is more a reason that the midlevel talent leaves than teams just swooning in and "massively overpaying" all of denvers players.

Yes, us being bunched up against the cap is a problem but i think Shanny wouldnt drastically overpay someone even if he had the room under the cap.
Berry was very productive last year, i think some of what he did was due to Darnell Dockett but lets assume we were wrong looking back on it and he deserved the 25 over 5 yrs.

Still, while you might be annoyed that people bring up "oh well i dont want him anyway if we are gonna overpay" i dont think there is a single fan on this board, yourself included that thinks that Reggie Hayward is worth 25 over 5 years with a 10 million bonus. Can you honestly say that this is anywhere close to Fair Market Value yavoon? Even if we had the money, i still wouldnt do it because you dont wreck future caps when the guy isnt remotely worth the investment. That said, if i had a choice to spend the money either on Hayward or Gold and we were going to pay relatively the same amount of money out to either of them, id choose Hayward. Its still overpaying.

And yes, it would have been nice to keep Herndon (esp. in light of our precarious depth now) but its more than just homer whining when we say "im glad we didnt overpay". 15 million over 5 for Herndon? I'll give you that this is closer to Kelly's actual value as compared to what Hayward got in relation to his value but this is still too much. 3 million per season for a guy who was running with the 2s last summer and who was going to backup Walls this year? 3 million to sit on the bench unless its long yardage or 3 or 4 WRs? Money plays. Money belongs on the field. Money isnt backups. I could have stomached 15 over 5 for Herndon i suppose given our problems right now, but it still would be a reach and there is no way i could bear Hayward getting a 10 million bonus and 25 over 5, overall. ****ing Plaxico Burress got 25 over 5 from the Giants and we are expected to give that same amount to a guy like Reggie Hayward, and 10 million of it up front?

[Cito Pelon]

Your becoming more amusing than irrritating.

Denver has one of the most stable coaching staffs in the NFL.

Noone has "Raided" Denver at all. I doubt you can name a single coach.

Name one. Greg Robinson? Who was fired by Kansas City?

Maybe Alex Gibbs who retired?. Gibbs wasn't raided.

I'm still wating for a take.

How about I "take" you to the woodshed?

Heimerdinger, Dorrell, Donatell. Post their first names, woodshed-boy.

Pick your shots more carefully, or "take" more ass-stripings.

[yavoon]

Yes, us being bunched up against the cap is a problem but i think Shanny wouldnt drastically overpay someone even if he had the room under the cap.
Berry was very productive last year, i think some of what he did was due to Darnell Dockett but lets assume we were wrong looking back on it and he deserved the 25 over 5 yrs.

Still, while you might be annoyed that people bring up "oh well i dont want him anyway if we are gonna overpay" i dont think there is a single fan on this board, yourself included that thinks that Reggie Hayward is worth 25 over 5 years with a 10 million bonus. Can you honestly say that this is anywhere close to Fair Market Value yavoon? Even if we had the money, i still wouldnt do it because you dont wreck future caps when the guy isnt remotely worth the investment. That said, if i had a choice to spend the money either on Hayward or Gold and we were going to pay relatively the same amount of money out to either of them, id choose Hayward. Its still overpaying.

And yes, it would have been nice to keep Herndon (esp. in light of our precarious depth now) but its more than just homer whining when we say "im glad we didnt overpay". 15 million over 5 for Herndon? I'll give you that this is closer to Kelly's actual value as compared to what Hayward got in relation to his value but this is still too much. 3 million per season for a guy who was running with the 2s last summer and who was going to backup Walls this year? 3 million to sit on the bench unless its long yardage or 3 or 4 WRs? Money plays. Money belongs on the field. Money isnt backups. I could have stomached 15 over 5 for Herndon i suppose given our problems right now, but it still would be a reach and there is no way i could bear Hayward getting a 10 million bonus and 25 over 5, overall. ****ing Plaxico Burress got 25 over 5 from the Giants and we are expected to give that same amount to a guy like Reggie Hayward, and 10 million of it up front?

a nickel is no longer a backup in the NFL, didnt denver see 3wr on like 40% of their snaps last year?

I'm just sayin we need results. and I'm somewhat tired of ppl insulting berry by saying he had pryce, and now he has docket. frigging julius peppers has the best supporting line in the league and ppl still lick his nuts. the fact is last year berry in arizona showed a great nose for the qb, he was a slippery intelligent mofo.

btw for all our trading a lot of our trades are short term loans. what we going to do then? let someone else "overpay" them and once again be stuck? I'm not anymore anxious to overpay than anyone else, but u need to sign talent. that or u need to start rebuilding.

[SoCalBronco]

a nickel is no longer a backup in the NFL, didnt denver see 3wr on like 40% of their snaps last year?

Yeah i believe Mediator said we were in nickel formations alot last year. I'll give you that, so he is out there a bit more, but to be worth Seattle's offer, to be worth 3 million as a nickel corner you better be one of the best damn nickel corners in the league and i thought Herndon was good but not rising to that level. JMO.

I'm just sayin we need results. and I'm somewhat tired of ppl insulting berry by saying he had pryce, and now he has docket. frigging julius peppers has the best supporting line in the league and ppl still lick his nuts. the fact is last year berry in arizona showed a great nose for the qb, he was a slippery intelligent mofo.

btw for all our trading a lot of our trades are short term loans. what we going to do then? let someone else "overpay" them and once again be stuck? I'm not anymore anxious to overpay than anyone else, but u need to sign talent. that or u need to start rebuilding.

Here i agree with you 100 PERCENT, yavoon. Denver has put themselves in a tough spot. If Warren produces, he is going to want to get paid. Do you give him the money up front to keep him with the risk that he just gets lazy again, or in the alternative do you let him go and we wind up back at square one with nothing whatsoever on the defensive line? Same with Brown. Lets assume he is healthy and he rocks. He is due a large roster bonus next year. Do you pay it and risk that he starts getting injured again? Or do u let him go and get gobbled up by another team once they saw he produced? You wont be able to renegotiate the roster bonus downwards if he has a good year. So its tough. Thats a very valid concern yavoon im glad you brought it up, Rep. Its not talked about alot. There is a catch 22 situation of sorts awaiting us next year if these guys do well. If they dont, we are back at square one again.

[Raiders Rock]

Who read it to you? :charge:


Your Wife :) :twokisses

[Odysseus]

Shanahan has made changes, and has shaken up the scouting department...twice.

Chemistry begins with the coaches and spreads to the players...not really the other way around.

The more you post up about Kirk Doll the better I like the guy. I think Special teams is a CRITICAL facet for fixing long term Bronco problems. The fact that Shanny is putting players, plays and empowering his people means he'll be do a better job seeing the big picture which is what he's paid to do.

I'm glad that Shanny is looking hard at coach level questions instead of dwelling on the player level. Fans forget that Broncos don't routinely change coaches. It's been relatively stable up until now and Shanahan is making moves to be more inclusive not exclusive and yet a lot of the old resentment is still there.

Lenny is marginal, regional and irrelevant in my view. He's using short sightedness of a regional team to present himself as "hard hitting" when in fact he hits like a biotch. I doubt he would stand the scrutiny he so eagerly wishes he could dish out. He strikes me as dishonest in his approach. I love it when a guy can punch with something but Lenny ain't it. thwack

[Popps]

The article is dead-on. As fans, we may not like it... but facts are facts. I've basically written that article (in so many words) on this forum 100 times. (As have others.)
Shanahan couldn't find a CB in the draft if his life depended on it, and he refuses to take the D-line seriously. All of that is in stark contrast to his early days in Denver... when the D-line was #1 priority, and he seemed to have a grip on the CB situation.

Shanahan has been trying to build our defense from the back-forward for years... and the result? We can't stop anyone at crunch time.

That said, I'd still take him over most coaches/GMs in the league. We'll see what his latest round of experiments can do. If Pryce is healthy, I do like the odds of one of the new DLs panning out. We've certainly got enough to choose from. Still... you can't help but look at our defense over the last couple of years and think that the only thing missing was a ass-kicking edge pass rusher. A DE that has to be accounted for on every play. Will we have one of those this year? Unlikely. Let's just hope the rotation can get enough pressure to keep our secondary from having to cover guys for 6 seconds at a time.

[BroncoInferno]

Its not rumors, Reverend. All of this stuff is either from the papers or Wabbit, Mediator or Heav and much was cross-confirmed by all of them, especially the part about Trevor constantly refusing to restructure while our FA "Plan" went up in flames in early April. That's why Shanahan and Sundquist were using completely absolute language regarding Trevor's future for weeks until we saw 2 or 3 days before their restructuring Ted Sundquist first say there is still an outside chance that he could come back and then a day later, Shanny putting it at "50-50" and then ofcourse we saw that RMN article when Trevor said "pay me now or pay me later i dont care" which was total BS, as if he had no problems with the contract when he had acted like a little biatch and left us twisting in the wind as every single target went off the board one by one.

None of this has ever been substaniated. In fact, quite the contrary. It wasn't just Pryce saying he was never asked to restructure, THE TEAM stated as much. They simply thought they could get a first day pick for an aging player while dumping his salary simultaneously. I thought they could as well. They were wrong. So, a deal was wroked out. The only place it was ever intimated that he had refused to renegotiate this offseason has been on this board. I really don't think it's fair to call a guy a "little biatch" based on internet innuendo.

[-Slap-]

How about I "take" you to the woodshed?

Heimerdinger, Dorrell, Donatell. Post their first names, woodshed-boy.

Pick your shots more carefully, or "take" more ass-stripings.

Well, Mock, you asked for some names.

[SoCalBronco]

None of this has ever been substaniated. In fact, quite the contrary. It wasn't just Pryce saying he was never asked to restructure, THE TEAM stated as much. They simply thought they could get a first day pick for an aging player while dumping his salary simultaneously. I thought they could as well. They were wrong. So, a deal was wroked out. The only place it was ever intimated that he had refused to renegotiate this offseason has been on this board. I really don't think it's fair to call a guy a "little biatch" based on internet innuendo.

Its pretty common knowledge that the team always asks its vets to restructure when they are tight against the cap and its also pretty well known that Trevor has refused to do so previously making him a prime target to do so this time. I trust Wabbit's words on the events that went down, he is pretty much Gold. Last year he nailed 3 of the 4 first round key targets that the Broncos were targetting and nailed the top ranked back on their board (Chris Perry). He was right on LeSueur sucking ass at camp and turned out to be right when he said V. Jackson had been moved down from being one of the 2nd round considerations a few days before the draft and was now the first choice at pick 76, sure enough Shanny said the same re: wanting to get Jackson at 76. There's more but im not going to get into all of it. Bottom line, ill buy what he is saying. He's had years covering the Valley and that is sufficient indicia of trustworthiness for me, especially when alot of what he has said was confirmed by Heav and Mediator.

[clarker]

I don't mind the bashing when the Broncos or Shanny have it coming but there is another side of the coin as well that guys like that fat ass from ESPN and Kiszla never talk about.

The talk about free agent flops like IHOP and Dale Carter, but forget about Alfred Williams, Mark Schlereth, Ed McCaffrey, Howard Griffith, John Lynch, and others.

They talk about first round busts like Middlebrooks, O'Neal and Nash, but forget about D.J. Williams, Al Wilson, Trevor Pryce, John Mobley, George Foster and Ashley Lelie.

The talk about late round reaches like Tonovousi(sp?) and leave out the Terrell Davis' of the world.

So if Mike Shanahan and the Broncos staff are so bad drafting and picking free agents, then Shanny must be the greatest coach ever bar none. Because the Broncos are in the play offs almost every year and won two Super Bowls with 13 of 22 starters that were drafted by or signed by Mike Shanahan.

If you asked any Broncos fan if they would take over 100 wins in 10 years. 6 play off appearances including two Super Bowl wins. Would they take it? I would guess the answer would be yes.

Like him or not, Shanny has been damn successful in his 10 years in Denver. I don't mind it when people bring him out to task for his mistakes, which he has made a few. But the same people who are quick to bash him forget that he has made more than a few good moves while in Denver.

Shanny's first round picks. He didn't have a 1st round pick in his first year or this year. Wade used the first pick for Gary Zimmerman, I'm not giving credit to Shanny for that, but just stating what happened to that pick.

The Good-John Mobley,Trever Pryce, Al Wilson, Ashley Lelie, D.J. Williams, George Foster.

The Bad- Willie Middlebrooks, Marcus Nash(the worst) and Deltha O'Neal.

6 picks that are good to excellent players for the Broncos either now or in the past.

3 picks that sucked. Although Deltha had one good season and one great game. Right, TrINT?

As for corner's Deltha and Middlebrooks didn't work out but Tory James has been a pretty good player when healthy and Kelley Herndon just got a big contract with the Seahawks if I remember right.

As for D-linemen what about Hayword and Berry? Where did they start out at? The Broncos couldn't afford to keep them, but Shanny and the staff were smart enough to spot them in the first place.

[BroncoInferno]

Its pretty common knowledge that the team always asks its vets to restructure when they are tight against the cap and its also pretty well known that Trevor has refused to do so previously making him a prime target to do so this time. I trust Wabbit's words on the events that went down, he is pretty much Gold. He's had years covering the Valley and that is sufficient indicia of trustworthiness for me, especially when alot of what he has said was confirmed by Heav and Mediator.

Well, that's your choice. Just because they ask vets to restructure does not mean they did so in this case. They thought with the premium placed on lineman, they could get a high draft choice while getting Pryce off the books. It's clear that was their thinking. When it became clear they weren't going to get anything, a deal was worked out. No disrespect to Wabbit and others, but internet innuendo does not establish fact. Unless something more substantive comes out, the fair thing to do is to give Trev the benefit of the doubt, particularly since he *did* accept a pay cut. But to each their own, I guess.

[SoCalBronco]

Well, that's your choice. Just because they ask vets to restructure does not mean they did so in this case. They thought with the premium placed on lineman, they could get a high draft choice while getting Pryce off the books. It's clear that was their thinking. When it became clear they weren't going to get anything, a deal was worked out. No disrespect to Wabbit and others, but internet innuendo does not establish fact. Unless something more substantive comes out, the fair thing to do is to give Trev the benefit of the doubt, particularly since he *did* accept a pay cut. But to each their own, I guess.

I dont see why we should give Trevor the benefit of the doubt. He did accept a pay cut but at that point it was too late to benefit the team since all the targets were gone. Whopdeedo. I dont think its fair to equate wabbit's reports with "internet innuendo" since, as i edited my post above to provide specific examples of what he has called, he has earned a sufficient indicia of trustworthiness around here.

[SoCalBronco]

I don't mind the bashing when the Broncos or Shanny have it coming but there is another side of the coin as well that guys like that fat ass from ESPN and Kiszla never talk about.

The talk about free agent flops like IHOP and Dale Carter, but forget about Alfred Williams, Mark Schlereth, Ed McCaffrey, Howard Griffith, John Lynch, and others.

They talk about first round busts like Middlebrooks, O'Neal and Nash, but forget about D.J. Williams, Al Wilson, Trevor Pryce, John Mobley, George Foster and Ashley Lelie.

The talk about late round reaches like Tonovousi(sp?) and leave out the Terrell Davis' of the world.

So if Mike Shanahan and the Broncos staff are so bad drafting and picking free agents, then Shanny must be the greatest coach ever bar none. Because the Broncos are in the play offs almost every year and won two Super Bowls with 13 of 22 starters that were drafted by or signed by Mike Shanahan.

If you asked any Broncos fan if they would take over 100 wins in 10 years. 6 play off appearances including two Super Bowl wins. Would they take it? I would guess the answer would be yes.

Like him or not, Shanny has been damn successful in his 10 years in Denver. I don't mind it when people bring him out to task for his mistakes, which he has made a few. But the same people who are quick to bash him forget that he has made more than a few good moves while in Denver.

Shanny's first round picks. He didn't have a 1st round pick in his first year or this year. Wade used the first pick for Gary Zimmerman, I'm not giving credit to Shanny for that, but just stating what happened to that pick.

The Good-John Mobley,Trever Pryce, Al Wilson, Ashley Lelie, D.J. Williams, George Foster.

The Bad- Willie Middlebrooks, Marcus Nash(the worst) and Deltha O'Neal.

6 picks that are good to excellent players for the Broncos either now or in the past.

3 picks that sucked. Although Deltha had one good season and one great game. Right, TrINT?

As for corner's Deltha and Middlebrooks didn't work out but Tory James has been a pretty good player when healthy and Kelley Herndon just got a big contract with the Seahawks if I remember right.

As for D-linemen what about Hayword and Berry? Where did they start out at? The Broncos couldn't afford to keep them, but Shanny and the staff were smart enough to spot them in the first place.

excellent post, rep.

[clarker]

excellent post, rep.Thank you.

[BroncoInferno]

I dont see why we should give Trevor the benefit of the doubt. He did accept a pay cut but at that point it was too late to benefit the team since all the targets were gone. Whopdeedo. I dont think its fair to equate wabbit's reports with "internet innuendo" since, as i edited my post above to provide specific examples of what he has called, he has earned a sufficient indicia of trustworthiness around here.

Wabbit's definately earned respect around here, but nobody is perfect. The best of best are wrong time and again. The print media certainly isn't perfect either, but they reported nothing to indicate that Trevor had refused a pay cut. Couple that with the fact the Trevor did take a pay cut, and I can't see how it's reasonable to hold a grudge against him for not taking a pay cut soon enough, when no facts have been established to prove that he did initially refuse. Now, as I said, the print media could have missed the boat on this. It's certainly possible that Pryce initially refused a pay cut, but with no facts to support the claim, I can't see how it's fair to give him a hard time about it.

Even if he did refuse initially, that's on the Broncos. They agreed to the terms of the contract just as Trevor did. The team will always do what is in their best interest--like release a player from a contract for almost any reason--so why shouldn't a player look out for his best interest? And why should he be given a hard time for doing so? It's easy for us to sit back and say that Player X should take one for team--easy to say when it isn't our respective bank accounts that will be effected.

[SoCalBronco]

Wabbit's definately earned respect around here, but nobody is perfect. The best of best are wrong time and again. The print media certainly isn't perfect either, but they reported nothing to indicate that Trevor had refused a pay cut. Couple that with the fact the Trevor did take a pay cut, and I can't see how it's reasonable to hold a grudge against him for not taking a pay cut soon enough, when no facts have been established to prove that he did initially refuse. Now, as I said, the print media could have missed the boat on this. It's certainly possible that Pryce initially refused a pay cut, but with no facts to support the claim, I can't see how it's fair to give him a hard time about it.

Even if he did refuse initially, that's on the Broncos. They agreed to the terms of the contract just as Trevor did. The team will always do what is in their best interest--like release a player from a contract for almost any reason--so why shouldn't a player look out for his best interest? And why should he be given a hard time for doing so? It's easy for us to sit back and say that Player X should take one for team--easy to say when it isn't our respective bank accounts that will be effected.

I agree that each side shouldnt be criticized for doing what's in their best interest and since i do not believe in the "he signed the contract he should honor it" theory i dont hold it against players when they hold out or ask for a new deal. Similarly, i dont have any problem with a team going for money when they need it even though they just agreed on a set of terms with the guy. That doesnt even come into play here, IMO, because i think it was in Trevor's best interest to take the pay cut from day 1 or at least a short while after day 1. Remember when Sundquist arrogantly proclaimed over the radio that "we will get whatever we ask for in return for Pryce" strongly implying we could get a 1st rounder? And then media reports in the following days kept saying we cant find a trading partner? Trevor and his agent surely must have been aware of the team's struggles in finding a trading partner. This should have tipped him off early to the concept that if released on the open market, Trevor Pryce would get no where near guaranteed money he would get even with the pay cut from 9 million down to 6 million that he eventually took, because other teams were worried about his injury. Admittedly, at this point we probably disagree because my theory here depends on the team openly asking trevor for a substantial cut from the beginning with a refusal in reply, while you think that they may have never asked. But if they did in fact ask, and ask repeatedly like I think they did, he should have accepted the reality of the situation earlier. He finally realized there is no way im gonna get 6 million in guaranteed money on the open market so ill take it, but by that time, his realization didnt help us as much as it would have had he seen the light earlier.

[Rausch]

In the meantime they ignore no other teams in the NFL seem capable of making a trade.

Shanahan just eats their lunch, don't he?

Is this sarcasm?...

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

With all of the bodies the Broncs have on the DL, I am beginning to wonder if the plan is not to try and trade for more draft choices as teams realize thier shortcomings and injuries occur during camp. Maybe Pryce comes off the books this year - perhaps to Dallas for a second rounder if they get desperate?

[DBroncos4life]

I knew that the media would twist this trade out to be bad for Denver. Name one team that has ever traded a guy with 2 career starts in 4 years and finished the last two years on IR for anything let alone a quality player that we landed. While 90% of the NFL ends up just cutting the players that are veiwed as "bust" we set out to find a team that needed depth and sent them our bust for a guy that could no longer be used in their new 3-4 system. 2 of the 3 teams that wanted to make a move for Middlebrooks now run a 3-4 D. Hmmm see a pattern here. No coach can be perfect year in and year out but it seems this year Mike has found a way to get something in return for his mistakes of years past.

[BroncoInferno]

I agree that each side shouldnt be criticized for doing what's in their best interest and since i do not believe in the "he signed the contract he should honor it" theory i dont hold it against players when they hold out or ask for a new deal. Similarly, i dont have any problem with a team going for money when they need it even though they just agreed on a set of terms with the guy. That doesnt even come into play here, IMO, because i think it was in Trevor's best interest to take the pay cut from day 1 or at least a short while after day 1. Remember when Sundquist arrogantly proclaimed over the radio that "we will get whatever we ask for in return for Pryce" strongly implying we could get a 1st rounder? And then media reports in the following days kept saying we cant find a trading partner? Trevor and his agent surely must have been aware of the team's struggles in finding a trading partner. This should have tipped him off early to the concept that if released on the open market, Trevor Pryce would get no where near guaranteed money he would get even with the pay cut from 9 million down to 6 million that he eventually took, because other teams were worried about his injury. Admittedly, at this point we probably disagree because my theory here depends on the team openly asking trevor for a substantial cut from the beginning with a refusal in reply, while you think that they may have never asked. But if they did in fact ask, and ask repeatedly like I think they did, he should have accepted the reality of the situation earlier. He finally realized there is no way im gonna get 6 million in guaranteed money on the open market so ill take it, but by that time, his realization didnt help us as much as it would have had he seen the light earlier.

But see SoCal, you're making the conclusion Trevor's behalf that it was in his best interest to take the pay cut sooner--he may have seen it differently. May be there was something in the works with another team that we will never know about. Now, in the end, he did take the pay cut, obviously deciding it was in his best interests (this is all going under your theory that he was asked and refused a pay cut from day 1).

The point, though, is that all either of us can do is speculate. No facts are established with regards to whether or not he was repeatedly ask to take a paycut. Therefore, I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt in this case.

[NFLBRONCO]

If we do end up trading Pryce, my money is on Dallas as his destination.

Pat Bowlen & Jerry Jones talked about a possible trade during owners meetings, but as SoCal mentioned, the untested back, as well as the intransigent posture on salary worried the Cowboys...and Cincinnati, a late bidder, for that matter.

If Pryce proves the back is fine, I agree a trade of some kind is almost guaranteed...and the three teams most likely to be vying for his services will be Dallas, Seattle & St. Louis...all of whom inquired more than once about the guy.

Other teams that expressed interest in Pryce & had, at least more than one discussion with the Broncos about him included the NY Giants, NY Jets, Cleveland (oddly enough, but true), Cincinnati, Houston, Green Bay, Tampa Bay, Arizona & Jacksonville...not to mention interest shown by KC, Oakland & San Diego, but that aint happenin'.


If Pryce is traded does it happen next offseason or trade deadline this year? I never thought of this much but, with Warren a FA if we like him and 2 #1's next year we might need to unload a big contract to handle these 2 picks and Warren.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Despite his odd numbered year botches, i think Shanny is underrated when it comes to the draft. Contrary to popular belief, we actually do very well in the early rounds of the draft. For the 5 draft period from 2000-2004, we have hit on 60% of our first rounders (the rule of thumb states that a 50 percent hit rate in the first round is "average"), and a whopping 71% of our second rounders.

Currently, while you are correct in saying that Denver uses FA to build its rosters, exactly 50% of the projected 2005 starting 22 will be Shanny draft picks/undrafted FAs he acquired right after the draft. If Monsanto Pope starts, that percentage will increase to 54.5%. So we get homegrown talent too, obviously we can evaluate some positions better than others though.
The rule of thumb??? I'm not sure what "rule of thumb" you are speaking of but I can't imagine missing on every other 1st round pick would make to many NFL owners particularly happy. Second, I'm not sure how impressive it is that 50% or 54.5% of our starters are draft choices. Perhaps I could put it into context if I had the will to compare several other teams numbers...(say the Pats and Steelers, who have a recent history of solid drafts) which I don't. But since each team has a finite amount of money it can spend and remain under the salary cap, and since signing 1 or 2 big name FA's can eat into that in a hurry, it naturally follows that a fairly high percentage of any team's roster MUST consist of draft picks since it's financially infeasible not to play drafted (cheaper) players.

I'm more interested in the fact that we've not won a playoff game since John left. I'll grant that Shanny has made some good FA moves, and in fact I think this year's DL moves might prove to be great ones, but it's tough to argue that there have been some pretty bad personel moves made through the draft. I'm not really trying to bash Shanahan, I just think he needs a GM in place.

Wabbit, your thoughts about Shanny changing up the coaching/scouting ranks make sense, and I hope this year we see a different level of play in...for example...our special teams; which have flat out sucked the last several years. I hope you're right about these new guys.













5

[Mediator12]

None of this has ever been substaniated. In fact, quite the contrary. It wasn't just Pryce saying he was never asked to restructure, THE TEAM stated as much. They simply thought they could get a first day pick for an aging player while dumping his salary simultaneously. I thought they could as well. They were wrong. So, a deal was wroked out. The only place it was ever intimated that he had refused to renegotiate this offseason has been on this board. I really don't think it's fair to call a guy a "little biatch" based on internet innuendo.

Actually, it has never been refuted either. Trevor Pryce has a very smart agent that handled the spin control on this in a very positive way from the real situation, which I pray to God never becomes available to the general public. He had Trevor lie blatantly in order to preserve any bargaining power he had with the Broncos.

BTW, Find one article that substatiates the TEAM agreed with Trevor's assertion of not being asked to restructure. You will not find one. Why you ask? Simply put, that would require the Broncos to call him an outright Liar, while they are trying to get the maximum value for him on the trading block. That is not good asset management or PR is it. Instead they opted to NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION DIRECTLY at all.

[ZachKC]

Wow, we must real suck and be the worse team in the league. We cann't do anything right if listen/read ESPN.... Thank God, Gunther is in our division maybe some of his genuis can rub off Shanny and the rest of the front office. Maybe we should hire Saliberry to run our team????? Gee I am sorry that I cheer for the worse team in the league.
Why does one of these drama queen\victim posts come along everytime some article that doesn't go down on the Broncos is posted?

[wabbit]

Well, gee...lets see here

Oh yeah, this is a Bronco board...we talk about the Broncos when trolls aren't polluting the board.

When there is talk, or written material contrary to our belief about our team, we react in kind.

You don't like it...take your one liner takes elsewhere boy...comprende'

[SoCalBronco]

Why does one of these drama queen\victim posts come along everytime some article that doesn't go down on the Broncos is posted?

Zach, there havent been many articles that have gone down on us this summer. You like to laugh it at, but on the whole the media has been very negative towards the team this summer. Even on deals that no one could reasonably see as negative (See the Middlebrooks trade) the media has piled on. You dont believe it, but its true. And i dont think this is a homer viewpoint either. From what i have seen, I would venture that in discussions amongst ourselves, we are far more harsh to our team and than the patrons at Chiefsplanet are to their team.

[ZachKC]

Zach, there havent been many articles that have gone down on us this summer. You like to laugh it at, but on the whole the media has been very negative towards the team this summer. Even on deals that no one could reasonably see as negative (See the Middlebrooks trade) the media has piled on. You dont believe it, but its true. And i dont think this is a homer viewpoint either. From what i have seen, I would venture that in discussions amongst ourselves, we are far more harsh to our team and than the patrons at Chiefsplanet are to their team.
First of all the last part isn't true...a lot of CP members are brutal to the Chiefs and their decisions.

Also, every team's fanbase thinks the media hates them. Seriously, if you went to every single message board of any NFL team like the OM or CP you would get thei fans talking about how much the media hates them. It is fan and message board culture.

[ZachKC]

Well, gee...lets see here

Oh yeah, this is a Bronco board...we talk about the Broncos when trolls aren't polluting the board.

When there is talk, or written material contrary to our belief about our team, we react in kind.

You don't like it...take your one liner takes elsewhere boy...comprende'
I would tell you to take your grudge and insecurities elsewhere but I have come to enjoy it. Besides the fact that im not a troll.

[sirhcyennek81]

Broncos made several good trades this year, sets them up for now, and down the road, and someone will make a move to pick up one of the 19 defensive linemen we have. Good moves for the Broncos.

[Tombstone RJ]

First of all the last part isn't true...a lot of CP members are brutal to the Chiefs and their decisions.

Also, every team's fanbase thinks the media hates them. Seriously, if you went to every single message board of any NFL team like the OM or CP you would get thei fans talking about how much the media hates them. It is fan and message board culture.

Do me a favor Zach. Go find links to all the articles Len Pastabelly has written about the Broncos the last four years. Now, do the same and go find links to all the articles that Len Pastabelly has written about the chefs, or the Steelers, or the Giants, or any number of other NFL franchises.

I think you'll notice a distinct and very apparent bias against the Broncos in Pastabelly's coverage of the Broncos as opposed to other NFL franchises. I think you'll notice that he does not heap criticisim upon other teams in the NFL with such enthusiasm as he does with the Broncos.

[jonny1]

I'm not really trying to bash Shanahan, I just think he needs a GM in place.

Ever hear of Ted Sundquist?

[ZachKC]

Do me a favor Zach. Go find links to all the articles Len Pastabelly has written about the Broncos the last four years. Now, do the same and go find links to all the articles that Len Pastabelly has written about the chefs, or the Steelers, or the Giants, or any number of other NFL franchises.

I think you'll notice a distinct and very apparent bias against the Broncos in Pastabelly's coverage of the Broncos as opposed to other NFL franchises. I think you'll notice that he does not heap criticisim upon other teams in the NFL with such enthusiasm as he does with the Broncos.
Like I have time in my life for that, count me in as not interested.

If you guys feel better by playing the victims than more power to you. I still mark it down as fan culture and message board culture.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Ever hear of Ted Sundquist?
Do you believe Sundquist is the real power in the front office? I don't.

[Tombstone RJ]

Like I have time in my life for that, count me in as not interested.

If you guys feel better by playing the victims than more power to you. I still mark it down as fan culture and message board culture.

Ok then Zach, try this: find one positive article about the Broncos written by Len Pastabelly the last four years.

Do you have time for that?

[wabbit]

Oh, c'mon Tombstone.

Don't you know??

Zach is above the fray.

He...hovers there...looking down and making his selections what is truth & what is not.

[ZachKC]

Ok then Zach, try this: find one positive article about the Broncos written by Len Pastabelly the last four years.

Do you have time for that?
Alrighty...after a few mins.

Dayne signing...seemed not to rip on it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2027992

Even with the departure of 2004 starter Reuben Droughns, who rushed for 1,240 yards in '04 but who was traded to the Cleveland Browns on Tuesday evening, the Broncos still possess a cadre of young and talented backs. Dayne, 27, will certainly have to fight for playing time and carries, provided he makes the regular-season roster.

Talks about a signing...everyone quoted talks about how they are excited. Nothing bad here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2025542

Alexander signing. Mostly facts. Seems to paint it in a positive light.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2019777


Seven-year veteran tight end Stephen Alexander, who enjoyed a productive bounce-back season in 2004 after a spate of injuries, has reached a contract agreement with the Denver Broncos, ESPN.com has learned.

Story about possible switch to 3-4. Nothing bad...talks up Pryce a little.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1991338

Older story about how stocked you guys are at RB when Droughns was still around. Shedded a lot of Broncos in a positie light.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1969743

Old article talking how Pryce could come back at the end of your season last year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1956963

The importance of having Pryce available Sunday -- and for the playoffs if Denver qualifies -- shouldn't be underestimated. An eight-year veteran, the former Clemson standout is a superb two-way defender, strong enough to anchor against the run and quick enough to rush the passer.

All of these after a random glance of his archive.

[sirhcyennek81]

well...is it empirical truth?

[ZachKC]

Oh, c'mon Tombstone.

Don't you know??

Zach is above the fray.

He...hovers there...looking down and making his selections what is truth & what is not.
From the guy who argues for pages and pages with Chiefs fans and then talks about how he doesn't aegue with Chiefs fans.

[ZachKC]

well...is it empirical truth?
It is mesureable...but you would have to define "bad" and "good" so its emprical nature is on shaky ground.

[clarker]

Alrighty...after a few mins.

Dayne signing...seemed not to rip on it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2027992



Talks about a signing...everyone quoted talks about how they are excited. Nothing bad here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2025542

Alexander signing. Mostly facts. Seems to paint it in a positive light.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2019777



Story about possible switch to 3-4. Nothing bad...talks up Pryce a little.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1991338

Older story about how stocked you guys are at RB when Droughns was still around. Shedded a lot of Broncos in a positie light.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1969743

Old article talking how Pryce could come back at the end of your season last year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1956963



All of these after a random glance of his archive.Those are all just news items, what about his opinon columns?

[ZachKC]

Those are all just news items, what about his opinon columns?
Can you find an archive? I tried to find one and didn't come up with one. I didn't try to hard though. He puts a whole lot of opinion type articles in his news items archive. I only searched for a lil while though.

[ZachKC]

His news and opinion pieces seem interchangable. This is mostly why I don't like him as a writer at all.

[clarker]

Can you find an archive? I tried to find one and didn't come up with one. I didn't try to hard though. He puts a whole lot of opinion type articles in his news items archive. I only searched for a lil while though.I don't know where to find a archive for him. I don't like about 99.9% of the junk he writes, even when he is not talking about the Broncos. I don't like any off the stuff he writes about Denver, because it is baised. I can't stand Kiszla from the Post either.

I like Krieger(sp?) from the Rocky Mountain news and the Sporting News writers.

[Atlas]

I'm more interested in the fact that we've not won a playoff game since John left. I'll grant that Shanny has made some good FA moves, and in fact I think this year's DL moves might prove to be great ones, but it's tough to argue that there have been some pretty bad personel moves made through the draft. I'm not really trying to bash Shanahan, I just think he needs a GM in place.



5

Denver played a very good team the last two years in the playoffs. THe Colts maybe the second best team in the NFL the last two years since they lost two tough games at NE. Denver also lost to the eventual SB champions Ravens in 2001. Denver played the tougher than most teams that post season.
I imagine if Denver would have played any team except the Colts they might have had a victory. I just think people whining about not wining a playoff game aren't looking deep enough. The Colts are a damn good team.

Denver needs to win one more game this year and get a home playoff game. Then they will get a playoff win.

[ZachKC]

Denver played a very good team the last two years in the playoffs. THe Colts maybe the second best team in the NFL the last two years since they lost two tough games at NE. Denver also lost to the eventual SB champions Ravens in 2001. Denver played the tougher than most teams that post season.
I imagine if Denver would have played any team except the Colts they might have had a victory. I just think people whining about not wining a playoff game aren't looking deep enough. The Colts are a damn good team.
Wow, hope all of that makes you feel better. You might have a point if you were not dominated in such a complete fashion in the games.

[yavoon]

Denver played a very good team the last two years in the playoffs. THe Colts maybe the second best team in the NFL the last two years since they lost two tough games at NE. Denver also lost to the eventual SB champions Ravens in 2001. Denver played the tougher than most teams that post season.
I imagine if Denver would have played any team except the Colts they might have had a victory. I just think people whining about not wining a playoff game aren't looking deep enough. The Colts are a damn good team.

Denver needs to win one more game this year and get a home playoff game. Then they will get a playoff win.

yah and to peyton manning Im sure denver's defense looks like a high school gameplan. "oh manup, rush 4-5 guys, gotcha."

[clarker]

Denver played a very good team the last two years in the playoffs. THe Colts maybe the second best team in the NFL the last two years since they lost two tough games at NE. Denver also lost to the eventual SB champions Ravens in 2001. Denver played the tougher than most teams that post season.
I imagine if Denver would have played any team except the Colts they might have had a victory. I just think people whining about not wining a playoff game aren't looking deep enough. The Colts are a damn good team.

Denver needs to win one more game this year and get a home playoff game. Then they will get a playoff win.Great point. In fact Bellick(sp?) the Ravens' head coach said after that season that he felt Denver was the best team they played in that post season and that he felt going into that game that the winner of that game would take the whole thing.

[clarker]

Wow, hope all of that makes you feel better. You might have a point if you were not dominated in such a complete fashion in the games.Well if that shouldn't make us feel better, tell me what gets Chief fans through losing in the first round at home every time they get in the play offs. What works for you guys, because if it works for the sad a** fans at ChokeHead Stadium, it should work for fans of a team that have been to a Super Bowl since Nixon was President. :thumbs:

[ZachKC]

Well if that shouldn't make us feel better, tell me what gets Chief fans through losing in the first round at home every time they get in the play offs. What works for you guys, because if it works for the sad a** fans at ChokeHead Stadium, it should work for fans of a team that have been to a Super Bowl since Nixon was President. :thumbs:
That sucked...and there was no reason for it. Instead of acting like it wasn't a big deal and talking about great the team was that stomped us we move on to next season. I own the Chiefs losses. Atlas is in some jaded universe where your guys failures come with these flowery consolation prizes.

The only part of that I have ever used that could be constrewed to be like the crap that Atlas spews is how I felt good about how our team fought hard games in losses. They went out there and played some great games that were tough, exciting, and heart breaking instead of having no pride and looking like they had no idea how to play football. Even that excuse is lame in my world. I don't like using it. A loss is a loss, own it.

[Atlas]

Well if that shouldn't make us feel better, tell me what gets Chief fans through losing in the first round at home every time they get in the play offs. What works for you guys, because if it works for the sad a** fans at ChokeHead Stadium, it should work for fans of a team that have been to a Super Bowl since Nixon was President. :thumbs:

No team in the NFL knows more about losing home playoff games than the Steelers and Chefs. They are the all time chokers.

[clarker]

That sucked...and there was no reason for it. Instead of acting like it wasn't a big deal and talking about great the team was that stomped us we move on to next season. I own the Chiefs losses. Atlas is in some jaded universe where your guys failures come with these flowery consolation prizes.Yeah, you can have your own flowery consolation prize as well, for at least in 1997. You lost to the team that won the Super Bowl as well.

[ZachKC]

Yeah, you can have your own flowery consolation prize as well, for at least in 1997. You lost to the team that won the Super Bowl as well.
No I had no prize...I am not a current Bronco fan. If I was you I would always talk about those days instead of your current squad. I added a lil more to that post as well.

[clarker]

No team in the NFL knows more about losing home playoff games than the Steelers and Chefs. They are the all time chokers.No kidding? I wonder how many time the media darlings Mart and Cowher has coached the Pro Bowl? Got to be at least a combined 5 or 6 times.

[clarker]

No I had no prize...I am not a current Bronco fan. If I was you I would always talk about those days instead of your current squad. I added a lil more to that post as well.So how is that the Chiefs are so much better than Denver over the last 5-6 years? How many play off games have they won? Hell, how many have they won since Super Bowl IV?

[ZachKC]

So how is that the Chiefs are so much better than Denver over the last 5-6 years? How many play off games have they won? Hell, how many have they won since Super Bowl IV?
Who are you talking to? Are you making up conversations with me?

Would you like me to say that you think the Broncos are the best team in the history of the world and make a counter argument for that?

[Atlas]

Yeah, you can have your own flowery consolation prize as well, for at least in 1997. You lost to the team that won the Super Bowl as well.

I tried to rep you.....

[clarker]

Who are you talking to? Are you making up conversations with me?Your on a public message board right? I guess you don't have an answer for why the Chiefs are any better than Denver the last 4-5 years. I mean I know it must suck to cheer for a team that has only been to won AFC title game, let alone a Super Bowl since Nixon was President, but I wasn't talking about all those years. Just the last 4-5.

I mean the Broncos haven't won a play off game since 1999, but I don't think the Chiefs have won one since Montana was at QB. So how are they so much better than Denver?

[ZachKC]

Your on a public message board right? I guess you don't have an answer for why the Chiefs are any better than Denver the last 4-5 years. I mean I know it must suck to cheer for a team that has only been to won AFC title game, let alone a Super Bowl since Nixon was President, but I wasn't talking about all those years. Just the last 4-5.

I mean the Broncos haven't won a play off game since 1999, but I don't think the Chiefs have won one since Montana was at QB. So how are they so much better than Denver?
My point was that you were arguing something I never said. I guess if we were switching themes because you felt backed into a corner on your rationalization with awful losses with Atlas...

To your question I would put both of our teams at an even place the past 4-5 years.

[clarker]

What you said about Atlas' point was "Wow, I hope that makes you feel better" And something about if the Broncos losses were close games, bla, bla, bla

My point is did it make you feel better because the Chiefs only lost 14-10 to Denver or by only 7 to the Colts. Does that make you feel better. How do the Chief fans make them feel better about it? Plus what difference much the lost by? I wouldn't feel any better about losing to the Ravens by 1 point that it was to lose by what 20 points? A loss is a loss.

It is a joke when Chief fans bash Denver for losing their last 3 play off games in the first round when their team wrote the damn book on first round chokes. It is like Vikings fans making fun of Bills fans for them losing 4 Super Bowls.

Having said all that, at least you admit that the Chiefs and the Broncos are about even the last 4-6 years.

[ZachKC]

What you said about Atlas' point was "Wow, I hope that makes you feel better" And something about if the Broncos losses were close games, bla, bla, bla

My point is did it make you feel better because the Chiefs only lost 14-10 to Denver or by only 7 to the Colts. Does that make you feel better. How do the Chief fans make them feel better about it? Plus what difference much the lost by? I wouldn't feel any better about losing to the Ravens by 1 point that it was to lose by what 20 points? A loss is a loss.

It is a joke when Chief fans bash Denver for losing their last 3 play off games in the first round when their team wrote the damn book on first round chokes. It is like Vikings fans making fun of Bills fans for them losing 4 Super Bowls.

Having said all that, at least you admit that the Chiefs and the Broncos are about even the last 4-6 years.

And my point was nothing makes me feel better. It was a loss and no prize was gained from it. I was making fun of Atlas for acting like there was.

[clarker]

And my point was nothing makes me feel better. It was a loss and no prize was gained from it. I was making fun of Atlas for acting like there was.There is no prize, but it is fair to say that if Denver hadn't had to play the Ravens or Colts right off the bat, they might have won a play off game in those years. For example I think Denver could have beat the Chiefs two years ago, since we creamed them in Denver that year and lost by one point in K.C.

[Atlas]

And my point was nothing makes me feel better. It was a loss and no prize was gained from it. I was making fun of Atlas for acting like there was.


I'm not saying it makes me feel better because Denver lost to good teams. I said that people shouldn't be down on the Broncos for losing to a great team like the Colts. The Colts are maybe the second best team in the NFL. How can you criticize Shanny or the Broncos for losing to a team that is much better than they are.

your a moron

[ZachKC]

There is no prize, but it is fair to say that if Denver hadn't had to play the Ravens or Colts right off the bat, they might have won a play off game in those years. For example I think Denver could have beat the Chiefs two years ago, since we creamed them in Denver that year and lost by one point in K.C.
So by your logic I could say that the Chiefs prob would have beat Denver because we dominated you in Arrowhead and played a very close game in Denver where the score was tied going into the 4th qtr?

[ZachKC]

I'm not saying it makes me feel better because Denver lost to good teams. I said that people shouldn't be down on the Broncos for losing to a great team like the Colts. The Colts are maybe the second best team in the NFL. How can you criticize Shanny or the Broncos for losing to a team that is much better than they are.

your a moron
You might have a point if the Colts been to a Superbowl in the past few years. I can only see this as a valid argument...and its an if...if you lose to SB champion. And again, its not like you guys lost a hard fought contest. You were dominated.

[clarker]

So by your logic I could say that the Chiefs prob would have beat Denver because we dominated you in Arrowhead and played a very close game in Denver where the score was tied going into the 4th qtr?Yes, I think that is a fair thing to say.

[ZachKC]

Yes, I think that is a fair thing to say.
Thats cool, I am just trying to roll with his logic...something tells me he won't find that the situation gells with his plan.

[clarker]

You might have a point if the Colts been to a Superbowl in the past few years. I can only see this as a valid argument...and its an if...if you lose to SB champion. And again, its not like you guys lost a hard fought contest. You were dominated.Well the Broncos dominated the Colts the first year during the regular season, with Manning and the starters playing and the Colts playing for home field advantage?

[ZachKC]

Well the Broncos dominated the Colts the first year during the regular season, with Manning and the starters playing and the Colts playing for home field advantage?
My main point is that this is a stretch because the rationalization made by Atlas is based on a team who has not been to a SB. If you are going to play "oh well you we lost to the best team" game you need to lose to the best team. And if you are using that for anything less than the best team...its a pretty weak rationalization. IMO.

[clarker]

My main point is that this is a stretch because the rationalization made by Atlas is based on a team who has not been to a SB. If you are going to play "oh well you we lost to the best team" game you need to lose to the best team. And if you are using that for anything less than the best team...its a pretty weak rationalization. IMO.I guess I'll just defer it to the Chief fans. They know more about first round losses than anyone. :thumbs: Don't get pissy, that was just a little joke.

[Atlas]

My main point is that this is a stretch because the rationalization made by Atlas is based on a team who has not been to a SB. If you are going to play "oh well you we lost to the best team" game you need to lose to the best team. And if you are using that for anything less than the best team...its a pretty weak rationalization. IMO.

Your the one reading into everything. I already told you. Denver lost to a better team. A much better team. How can people whine about not winning a playoff game when they lose to a much better team. If Denver would have lost to a lesser team than people should be criticzing them. There is no shame in losing to a better team. You just have to come back the next year and get better.

This is neither here nor there BUT In the history of the Broncos in the playoffs they have only lost twice in games that they were favored in. in 1984 against Pittsburgh and in 96 against Jacksonville.

[clarker]

Your the one reading into everything. I already told you. Denver lost to a better team. A much better team. How can people whine about not winning a playoff game when they lose to a much better team. If Denver would have lost to a lesser team than people should be criticzing them. There is no shame in losing to a better team. You just have to come back the next year and get better.

This is neither here nor there BUT In the history of the Broncos in the playoffs they have only lost twice in games that they were favored in. in 1984 against Pittsburgh and in 96 against Jacksonville.And those two games sucked much worse than either of those Colts games. The Jags game was worse, IMO, than the Super Bowl losses.

[ZachKC]

Your the one reading into everything. I already told you. Denver lost to a better team. A much better team. How can people whine about not winning a playoff game when they lose to a much better team. If Denver would have lost to a lesser team than people should be criticzing them. There is no shame in losing to a better team. You just have to come back the next year and get better.

This is neither here nor there BUT In the history of the Broncos in the playoffs they have only lost twice in games that they were favored in. in 1984 against Pittsburgh and in 96 against Jacksonville.
I will admint, I could accept this line of reasoning if you yourself didn't think Denver was a better team for the Colts and they would win.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=21151&highlight=colts

[Atlas]

And those two games sucked much worse than either of those Colts games. The Jags game was worse, IMO, than the Super Bowl losses.

My best friend was a Steeler fan. That '84 game was very hard for me but I do agree. The '96 game was more devastating because Denver was so good that year. The window was closing on Elway's career and it looked like he was going to go ringless.

[clarker]

My best friend was a Steeler fan. That '84 game was very hard for me but I do agree. The '96 game was more devastating because Denver was so good that year. The window was closing on Elway's career and it looked like he was going to go ringless.Plus the Jags were an expansion team. True that the NFL made it easier for the Jags and Panthers that it did for say the Vikings or Saints or Buccs when they came into the league, but still it sucked d.ck to lose to a 2nd year team. And as you said it looked like Elway was going to be ringless.

[wabbit]

From the guy who argues for pages and pages with Chiefs fans and then talks about how he doesn't aegue with Chiefs fans.

What hell is this?

I can't argue endlessly with you people, you simply go around in circles...kinda reminds you of home, huh?

Where are the pages & pages there Zach...remember now, pages & pages.

Hmmm?

[wabbit]

Zach is doing research...can't be bothered to reasearch the subject title of the thread, but By God, I'll get him.

Fools paradise, these message boards, huh?

most fun I've had in weeks

[ZachKC]

What hell is this?

I can't argue endlessly with you people, you simply go around in circles...kinda reminds you of home, huh?

Where are the pages & pages there Zach...remember now, pages & pages.

Hmmm?
A lil search engine action.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=16565

Don't you remember? It is the time you made it clear that you are insecure about your job. Pages 2-6 I believe. You went off about how you are too good to argue with us and did it for a whole multi page thread.

[ZachKC]

most fun I've had in weeks
Seriously? I hope this is a joke beacuse if not you need to go outside brother. I went to a great concery in St. Louis last night you may have liked it.

[wabbit]

Soooo, in your mind 9 posts in 125 ( I only went in five pages...seems like a valid sample) is pages & pages simply because the thread moved along.

...and where is it that I said I'm too good to argue with Chiefy fan.

I dread it, because y'all talk in some kind of yokel code that takes some sorting out...but where is that Zach

Sorry pal, you're just being a prick & throwing crap out there hoping it will stick.

Fact is, I often don't even review the replies to posts from chiefy fan unless I'm sitting here for a while because it's the same old tired trash post after post.

[wabbit]

Zach is researching again...first point crushed...second point coming...any time now Zach

Hey Zach...ever occur to you those threads are, like, a year old.

Boy you must be really determined...huh Zach

[wabbit]

Seriously? I hope this is a joke beacuse if not you need to go outside brother...

It is Zach...I'm not the researching old up-ge-chuck from a year ago

You are

[ZachKC]

Amazing, I am trying to do this and do some website stuff at the same time. I thought maybe I was mistaken so I take some time to go back through the thread only to see you made 30+ posts on the thread. 31 from my fast count. Stick to writing bud. You have Spide's math smarts.

[ZachKC]

It is Zach...I'm not the researching old up-ge-chuck from a year ago

You are
I can do two things at once.

[wabbit]

I can do two things at once.


Hey, everybody...that's one in Missouri

Got a real skill there Zach...must have employers absolutely beating down your door.

[ZachKC]

Hey, everybody...that's one in Missouri

Got a real skill there Zach...must have employers absolutely beating down your door.

Says the guy who can't count...

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=347481&postcount=171

I feel no urgency or need to defend myself to you or any KC fan.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=14330

I should prob apologize. The thread I linked above was not the one that outed you as insecure. It is this post and thread. It was so glaring. So thats pretty much everything you asked for. Enjoy.

[ZachKC]

Yup things have been going pretty well over here in Missouri these days.

[clarker]

Yup things have been going pretty well over here in Missouri these days.You guys got indoor plummbing at last? LOL

[ZachKC]

You guys got indoor plummbing at last? LOL
I enjoy it.

[wabbit]

Where does it say I don't like, or can't be bothered arguing with Chiefy fan Zach?

Your bobastic point was that I said I was too good to argue with Chiefy fan, yet argue page upon page (good posts if I must say so myself)...I do that all the time.

Where is that Zach...it's not even implied...I said I don't give a crap what you people thing, and I don't

Where is it Zach

[ZachKC]

You feel no need to argue...yet you do.

You are running yourself around in circles now. I provided everything you asked for. It is pretty obvious. But the window to the past is closed tonight. Sorry to dissapoint. Is there anything else some of us posters can do to make you lash out and defend your profession ?

[clarker]

I enjoy it.Yeah, I live in South Dakota, I think we get ours next month, I'm really looking forward to it. LOL :thumbs:

[ZachKC]

I couldn't imagine taking all the time to study and perfect an amazing craft like writing and having to use it on boring and uncreative reports on teams that are made mostly of facts that everyone else is writing.

I will wait while you talk to your peers to get some opinions to use for your reply.

[Kaylore]

You feel no need to argue...yet you do.

You are running yourself around in circles now. I provided everything you asked for. It is pretty obvious. But the window to the past is closed tonight. Sorry to dissapoint. Is there anything else some of us posters can do to make you lash out and defend your profession ?
Yes. Shut up.

[ZachKC]

Yeah, I live in South Dakota, I think we get ours next month, I really looking forward to it. LOL :thumbs:
Sounds like a good excuse to throw a kick ass party.

[wabbit]

You feel no need to argue...yet you do.

I said a YEAR AGO that I feel no need to justify anything to Chiefy fan...I don't. Damn boy, is that college include remedial reading...I'd take a course


You are running yourself around in circles now. I provided everything you asked for....


You provided nothing of the sort based on your original assertion.

Just sh*t on the wall...that's all you ever get from these people...

...but Zach CAN do two things at once...now that's really something.

[Atlas]

...and where is it that I said I'm too good to argue with Chiefy fan.

.


You are too good to argue with chief fans. Why waste your time talking in circles.

[wabbit]

I couldn't imagine taking all the time to study and perfect an amazing craft like writing and having to use it on boring and uncreative reports on teams that are made mostly of facts that everyone else is writing.

I will wait while you talk to your peers to get some opinions to use for your reply.

Well, there you go, endearing yourself as you often do on these boards.

Thanks a bunch for denigrating an impossibly difficult and arduous job that brings some news & happiness to people here.

More than anything else you've written on these boards...this post says it all about you.

[Rausch]

You are too good to argue with chief fans. Why waste your time talking in circles.

Because Taco refuses to pony up the jack to stream porn from this shack...

[Kaylore]

You are too good to argue with chief fans. Why waste your time talking in circles.
No joke Wabbit. It seems every week one of the Chief faithful reveal what total classless tools they are. Don't waste your time.

[wabbit]

You're right, of course, but this has gone on for while.

I don't like liars & people who manipulate context to suit their own means.

No-one is going to wade through all that year old garbage...he's certainly hoping you won't.

He is all about the statements he made in that last post I quoted.

Heavy handed demeaning insult of the work I do...followed by his standard chores of shelf arrangement & cashier at the 7-11.

You make the call

[ZachKC]

Heavy handed demeaning insult of the work I do.
From the guy who has a past of going out of his way to demean my schooling and what he thinks I do work wise. Like I said, everything I have talked about I provided with links...

But you should be thanking me. This is the most fun you have had in weeks.

[wabbit]

The links are a year old Zach...a year ago...and it doesn't support your original premise that I said I'm too good to argue with Chiefy fan...when I do it all the time

Your argument was a cheap-shot & your pursuit & demeaning comments only demonstrate what a vindictive, short sighted tool you really are

[Atlas]

The links are a year old Zach...a year ago...and it doesn't support your original premise that I said I'm too good to argue with Chiefy fan...when I do it all the time

Your argument was a cheap-shot & your pursuit & demeaning comments only demonstrate what a vindictive, short sighted tool you really are

I'm too good to argue with a chief fan but yet I still do. I'm trying to ignore them though.

[wabbit]

My God, I hate these people.

I used to think it was pretty cool when KC beat Oakland or represented the West in some way.

Not any more, believe me.

Dick Vermeil is a great coach with an outstanding staff.

Once he's gone, it will be a monumental pleasure to watch that franchise sink back into the stinking morass they've been more than a few times since SB IV...if not move entirely to a new area.

[Lidderer]

Well, there you go, endearing yourself as you often do on these boards.

Thanks a bunch for denigrating an impossibly difficult and arduous job that brings some news & happiness to people here.

More than anything else you've written on these boards...this post says it all about you.


you've gotta be kidding me. this coming from the guy who takes every potshot possible at anyone who doesn't worship the occasional morsel of info.

most hypocritical thing i've read in weeks.

[Play2win]

I can't stand the Qweefs. I hate them as much, or maybe even more than the Faiders. And it has nothing to do with the Organization itself. It has everything to do with their fans. I hate the Qweefs because of their fans. They are idiots. Complete and thorough idiots. I just hope the Qweefs and their fans become a stinking Rot outside in the NFL's dumpster outback for years to come...

[clarker]

There is no doubt I hate the Chiefs worse than the Raiders. The Raiders at least have cool colors. But I have met more Raider FANS that are pricks than Chief fans.

[wabbit]

you've gotta be kidding me. this coming from the guy who takes every potshot possible at anyone who doesn't worship the occasional morsel of info.

most hypocritical thing i've read in weeks.


Yeah, gee, I'm kidding ya

You don't read much, do ya...not that it's unsual for your kind...just asking.

dick

[Lidderer]

Yeah, gee, I'm kidding ya

You don't read much, do ya...not that it's unsual for your kind...just asking.

dick

see like right there.

[ØrangeÇrush]

Someone help me out here. Wasn't Middlebrooks actually recommended to Shanny by an assistant who was on the Broncos staff that coached Middlebrooks in College? Or am I thinking of someone else? I know Shanny makes the final decision but he is always influenced by his scouts and assistants.

To answer your question it was david gibbs...not surprising willie was traded now that his biggest supporter was gone.
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=334&storyID=2273

Jason Nacht; Edison, New Jersey
You coached Willie Middlebrooks in college and he has not really panned out well since the Broncos picked him in the first round of the 2001 draft due to injuries slowing his development. Do you think that he still has the potential to become a great cornerback?

David Gibbs
I stuck my neck out for Willie and I still believe in Willie. He has not played up to his capabilities and it’s something that we talk about all the time with him and it’s time. He’s got to show up or he’s got to move on and I think he will step up. He’s a good player and he has gotten better every year he’s been here, it always seems like we have other guys who are playing better at the time. Willie is a really good special teams player for us but he also, this season, needs to become a good DB and get his butt on the field.