All this talk about the Raiders WR's, Screw that

[Raiders Rock]

This will be you Browncos nightmare.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/06/21/first.person0627/lg_jordan.jpg

[Bob's your Information Minister]

And here is Oakland's nightmare:

http://www.newyorkjets.com/images/2004.1/frontpage/content/644.jpg

[Tombstone RJ]

LaMont Jordan, meet Al Wilson. Al Wilson, kill LaMont Jordan.

[Florida_Bronco]

This will be you Browncos nightmare.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/06/21/first.person0627/lg_jordan.jpg

Didn't you guys say that about Tyrone Wheatley and Charlie Garner too?

Sorry guys, but all the talent in Oakland isn't going to scare me. For many years you guys have had "talent" that just hasn't put it together, I have no reason to think this year will be any different.

[Rock Chalk]

Sure sure RR.

By week 4 you will be nothing but a fading memory around here.

[rbackfactory80]

Yeah he is the answer to all Oaklands problems. Maybe he can run that sorry hb pass to moss like he did against the ravens last year. Smart football player.

[watermock]

Looks like IHOP's Sister

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/06/21/first.person0627/lg_jordan.jpg

[Jason in LA]

Dude is a career backup. The faid will be in passing mode most of the time. They'll be playing in a lot of shootouts with that horrible defense. Maybe they can play Jordan at LB. He'd probably be better than what they have there now.

[DB-Freak]

He was a good prospect coming out.

Unfortunately, had to play behind martin.

[Florida_Bronco]

Looks like IHOP's Sister

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/06/21/first.person0627/lg_jordan.jpg

He looks old :poke:

[Hogan11]

He's no big deal.

[DBroncos4life]

For a second there I thought he was posting a pick of Sapp and Washington. You know the guys that avg 4 million dollars a tackle last year.

[2KBack]

In a division with Priest and LT2, I'm afraid the words "hand-off to Lamont Jordan" barely even register

[SoCalBronco]

After getting bitchslapped a few times by Wilson, Williams, Lynch and Bailey, i think Jordan is going to think twice about coming to this division. He'll prolly run over Ian a few times though.

[Kaylore]

And Raiders Rock, here is one reason I won't be scared
http://www.raiders.com/uploads/photos/perm/main/JONKAMLLCBIC/101104turner180.jpg

[Raider Bill]

The right side of our OL is going to be huge.

RG Langston Walker 6'8" 345
RT Robert Gallery 6'7" 325
TE Courtney Anderson 6'6" 270

I have a feeling Lamont's going to get his.

[SoCalBronco]

The right side of our OL is going to be huge.

RG Langston Walker 6'8" 345
RT Robert Gallery 6'7" 325
TE Courtney Anderson 6'6" 270

I have a feeling Lamont's going to get his.

I'll give you Gallery. (BTW, shouldnt he be on the Left side by now?)

I like the right side of our front seven against that group and your FB.

[Raider Bill]

We'll see.

I dont think any of those backs (except Robert Smith) Minnesota ran out there were anything special, but were beneficaries of the ridiculous coverages that Moss would draw, sometimes being bracketed with 3 defenders and almost never less than 2.

[Disco Man]

As long as Al Davis is alive the Raiders are no threat

[coachmastermind]

As long as Al Davis is alive the Raiders are no threat


His twin may be though... and that does scare me! haha

[Florida_Bronco]

We'll see.

I dont think any of those backs (except Robert Smith) Minnesota ran out there were anything special, but were beneficaries of the ridiculous coverages that Moss would draw, sometimes being bracketed with 3 defenders and almost never less than 2.

I don't see us sending 3 defenders at Randy, and maybe not even 2. I have confidence in Champ and when we have played Moss, we've handled him well.

[Kaylore]

I don't see us sending 3 defenders at Randy, and maybe not even 2. I have confidence in Champ and when we have played Moss, we've handled him well.
I say again, last I heard, Moss was going to be covered by Lenny Walls because he's taller.

[Florida_Bronco]

I say again, last I heard, Moss was going to be covered by Lenny Walls because he's taller.

That works for me ;D

Randy just doesn't scare me :raiderssu

[cabronco]

As long as Al Davis is alive the Raiders are no threat
Al Davis is alive ? I thought he was just a stuffed corpse in a jump suit... Uhh

[MadCity]

Al Davis is alive ? I thought he was just a stuffed corpse in a jump suit... Uhh

It's funny how many people make that mistake.

rofl

[DBroncos4life]

In 2004 NY Jets played the Browns. Jordan rushed for 73 yards that game. Not too scary. Toss in Pryce, Wilson, Gold, and Williams that will be more like 50 yards.

[SoCalBronco]

In 2004 NY Jets played the Browns. Jordan rushed for 73 yards that game. Not too scary. Toss in Pryce, Wilson, Gold, and Williams that will be more like 50 yards.

In fairness to Raider Fan, i gotta ask how many carries did Jordan get for those 73 yards? Total yards are almost irrelevant. Its all about average. I do agree though, Pryce, Wilson and Williams will shut him down.

[gunns]

Your dreams are about when the Raiders offense is on the field. I'll give you that your O line looks impressive and may allow Collins to look half way decent with Wr's like Moss and Porter. What you have to worry about is when your defense allows the opposing offense to stay on the field.

[DBroncos4life]

In fairness to Raider Fan, i gotta ask how many carries did Jordan get for those 73 yards? Total yards are almost irrelevant. Its all about average. I do agree though, Pryce, Wilson and Williams will shut him down.


4 yard avg. Long run of 11. Still nothing to say he will own the newest members of the Broncos and our guys we had before. The game was in week 11 so it was after Brown done for the year.

[jossjeff]

[rbackfactory80]

In 2004 NY Jets played the Browns. Jordan rushed for 73 yards that game. Not too scary. Toss in Pryce, Wilson, Gold, and Williams that will be more like 50 yards.

Your keyword in that statement was Trevor Pryce. I am sick and tired of people calling him washed up and people are going to feel stupid when they see what he will bring to Denver's defense this year.

[jossjeff]

With all of Oakland's offseason acquisitions I agree that Jordan will eventually be the biggest difference maker. Norv Turdner may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but one thing he knows is how to get behind a pounding back and ride him till he drops.

Considering our defensive woes I think we may be playing ball control more than people realize. People saying our defense will be adequate might ask themselves outside of CWood which of our starting defensive players would be starting on other teams right now?

Moss, Jordan, Porter.... Yeah the team should be exciting to watch. Our schedule opening the season is brutal but if we can split the first two looking down the road it's not that tough and you never know.

On the downside I'm still not sold on the following:

Kerry Collins' ability to make good decisions while getting pressured.

The OLine's ability to run block.

The pash rush. To me counting on Burgess to stay healthy for entire year is wishful thinking at best.

Our defensive Cord still is a clueless asshole. He recently stated that Tyler Brayton will again be playing LB this season??? Talk about forcing square pegs into round holes. Ryan is a joke. Still trying to play the 3/4 with 4/3 personell.

Who starts opposite CWood? Asomugha? Washington? Routt? Hill? Are any of them ready to play? Aso has had some time yet he has failed to impress and seems to lack CB instincts to me. I fear Washington is a PBuch clone, Routt is a track star at I'm thinking that Hill is a 3rd CB at best.

Will Derrick Gibson ever develop? Hasn't yet with chances to do so.

Assuming Schweigert starts has he learned to tackle? He may have ballhawk skills but that matters not if he gets laid out by every 190 pound WR coming his way.

Lot's of question to be sure.

However after the last two seasons I have some legitimate hope going into this one.

Al Davis may be an ass but at least he is trying to win which is more than about half the owners around the league can say with a straight face. At times his meddling hurts the team yes but I'd much rather fail trying than not try at all.

[Florida_Bronco]

Like many have said before, the deciding factor for the Raiders will be how good their team chemistry is. My speculation is they will be like the Vikings of 1998 and a few years after. They'll have alot of talent on offense and score points and possibly win quite a few games, but if they make it to the playoffs they will most likely crack under pressure and/or their defense will kill the team.

Just my speculation though.

[Jason in LA]

JJ, that's one of the few objective posts that I've seen from a Raider fan on a Broncos board. I'm still not sold on Jordan, but I do agree with what you said about the Raider defense. Too many question marks. Too many players that wouldn't start on many teams. At this point I don't see how that unit can get into the top 20, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them right where they were last year. But one good thing for your Raiders, I thought the Chargers were going to make a run at 0-16 last year, and just about everybody had them in last place. So anything can happen.

[jossjeff]

Like many have said before, the deciding factor for the Raiders will be how good their team chemistry is. My speculation is they will be like the Vikings of 1998 and a few years after. They'll have alot of talent on offense and score points and possibly win quite a few games, but if they make it to the playoffs they will most likely crack under pressure and/or their defense will kill the team.

Just my speculation though.

I won't argue with any of that. Fair analysis.

[-Slap-]

http://www.raiders.com/uploads/photos/perm/main/JONKAMLLCBIC/101104turner180.jpg

Massive turkey wattle under his neck, but no crow's feet around his eyes.

Botox?

[jossjeff]

http://www.raiders.com/uploads/photos/perm/main/JONKAMLLCBIC/101104turner180.jpg

Massive turkey wattle under his neck, but no crow's feet around his eyes.

Botox?

Let's be realistic here. Dude was about our 37th choice for Head Coach and only got the gig after others passed.

Offensively I suppose he's competent but that's about the nicest thing I can say about "the company man".

His appearance may stop a clock but that's not my primary concern.

[Jason in LA]

Like many have said before, the deciding factor for the Raiders will be how good their team chemistry is. My speculation is they will be like the Vikings of 1998 and a few years after. They'll have alot of talent on offense and score points and possibly win quite a few games, but if they make it to the playoffs they will most likely crack under pressure and/or their defense will kill the team.

Just my speculation though.

I do agree that the Raiders will be like the Viks, just not like the '98 Viks. That Viks team was one of the best offenses ever. I think that's asking a bit too much out of this Raider offense. I'd say the Raiders are going to be more like the Viks over the past four years. Very good offense for the most part, but a bad defense. The Viks over the past four years have gone 5-11, 6-10, 9-7, and 8-8. They have had an explosive offense each of those years. An offense that I'd say is better than what the Raiders will have. Until the Raiders do something about that defense they are going to find themselves on the losing end of a lot of shootouts. If their O has a bad game it will be a loss, because the D won't pick up the slack.

[jossjeff]

JJ, that's one of the few objective posts that I've seen from a Raider fan on a Broncos board. I'm still not sold on Jordan, but I do agree with what you said about the Raider defense. Too many question marks. Too many players that wouldn't start on many teams. At this point I don't see how that unit can get into the top 20, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them right where they were last year. But one good thing for your Raiders, I thought the Chargers were going to make a run at 0-16 last year, and just about everybody had them in last place. So anything can happen.

Interesting point.

Hey I'm hoping that with Jordan converting many of those 3rd and 2's that we were stuffed on or had to pass on last season will give our defense some extra time and may help improve performance.

As far as rankings go who really gives a crap? Top 20 whatever. I'd just like them to make the occasional play and help us rather than hurt us.

Bottom line is that Sapp is 4/3 tackle and was out of position all of last season. Is he past his prime? Yes, but as an organization we certainly didn't do him any favors by playing him out of position.

[Florida_Bronco]

Interesting point.

Hey I'm hoping that with Jordan converting many of those 3rd and 2's that we were stuffed on or had to pass on last season will give our defense some extra time and may help improve performance.

As far as rankings go who really gives a crap? Top 20 whatever. I'd just like them to make the occasional play and help us rather than hurt us.

Bottom line is that Sapp is 4/3 tackle and was out of position all of last season. Is he past his prime? Yes, but as an organization we certainly didn't do him any favors by playing him out of position.

You have got to be the only non homer and non asshole raider poster I have seen on this board during my time. Nice to see someone come here as a fan of a rival and actually discuss football without "talking smack" all the time.

You sir, just earned yourself some positive rep :D

[Rashid242]

I don't see us sending 3 defenders at Randy, and maybe not even 2. I have confidence in Champ and when we have played Moss, we've handled him well.

10 for 151 yards isn't all that great. Especailly when you played Cover 2 for every snap of the game. That was 03'.

[Rashid242]

I do agree that the Raiders will be like the Viks, just not like the '98 Viks. That Viks team was one of the best offenses ever. I think that's asking a bit too much out of this Raider offense. I'd say the Raiders are going to be more like the Viks over the past four years. Very good offense for the most part, but a bad defense. The Viks over the past four years have gone 5-11, 6-10, 9-7, and 8-8. They have had an explosive offense each of those years. An offense that I'd say is better than what the Raiders will have. Until the Raiders do something about that defense they are going to find themselves on the losing end of a lot of shootouts. If their O has a bad game it will be a loss, because the D won't pick up the slack.

Besides Culpepper I would take ever skill player over what the Vikes have.

I would take Micheal Bennett over Jordan but besides Mike's Pro Bowl year in 02' he misses half the games with injury.

I do agree even with Collins & the offense having a very good year I think the Raiders win between 7-9 games. 9 if the get all of the bounces.

[Mr Chatterboodamn]

And Raiders Rock, here is one reason I won't be scared
http://www.raiders.com/uploads/photos/perm/main/JONKAMLLCBIC/101104turner180.jpg


actually, we all should be scared of the damage that free radicals do to the skin.

[Atlas]

His twin may be though... and that does scare me! haha

Al Davis is also the Leader of North Korea???

[watermock]

That can't be Lamont Jordan. I thought it was Warren Sapp holding up the sea wall.

The east coast media has hit a new low. Oalkand sends millions for this fat assed zero backup and we tet MoC for nothing?

The guy looks like a pig. I thought he was Warren Sapp. Don't tell me they are going to run this pig.

It's comedy. The guy signs for millions and can't make it up the steps.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/06/21/first.person0627/lg_jordan.jpg

Welcome to IHOP Oakland.

[Florida_Bronco]

10 for 151 yards isn't all that great. Especailly when you played Cover 2 for every snap of the game. That was 03'.

Those stats are misleading, he only made 1 big catch (44 yards) in that game, everything else was of the 10-15 yard variety. Also keep in mind we had O'Neal, Brandon, Ferguson and Herndon as our starting secondary that day and he still only made 1 big play.

Sorry, but Moss does not impress me. I think you'll see when he finally gets on the field in Oakland and isn't the only viable option at receiver, that's he just not that much of a "game changer"

[Jason in LA]

Besides Culpepper I would take ever skill player over what the Vikes have.

I would take Micheal Bennett over Jordan but besides Mike's Pro Bowl year in 02' he misses half the games with injury.

I do agree even with Collins & the offense having a very good year I think the Raiders win between 7-9 games. 9 if the get all of the bounces.

I hope you don't really mean that.

Nate Burleson, in only his second year, posted a 1000 yard season, and had more catches than Porter, and had as many TDs. I'd take him over Porter and Curry. Porter has yet to get a 1000 yard season.

How about TE Jermaine Wiggins? 71 catches for 705 yards. You'd take Courtney Anderson or Teyo Johnson over Wiggins? Please don't answer that. Anderson and Johnson combined for only 22 catches for 306 yards.

The biggest difference is Culpepper for Collins, which you already said you'd take Culpepper. There is no comparision between the two QBs.

I'd take the Viks O from last year over the Raider O this year. That Viks O led them to an 8-8 season.

[Broncoman13]

With all of Oakland's offseason acquisitions I agree that Jordan will eventually be the biggest difference maker. Norv Turdner may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but one thing he knows is how to get behind a pounding back and ride him till he drops.

Considering our defensive woes I think we may be playing ball control more than people realize. People saying our defense will be adequate might ask themselves outside of CWood which of our starting defensive players would be starting on other teams right now?

Moss, Jordan, Porter.... Yeah the team should be exciting to watch. Our schedule opening the season is brutal but if we can split the first two looking down the road it's not that tough and you never know.

On the downside I'm still not sold on the following:

Kerry Collins' ability to make good decisions while getting pressured.

The OLine's ability to run block.

The pash rush. To me counting on Burgess to stay healthy for entire year is wishful thinking at best.

Our defensive Cord still is a clueless a-hole. He recently stated that Tyler Brayton will again be playing LB this season??? Talk about forcing square pegs into round holes. Ryan is a joke. Still trying to play the 3/4 with 4/3 personell.

Who starts opposite CWood? Asomugha? Washington? Routt? Hill? Are any of them ready to play? Aso has had some time yet he has failed to impress and seems to lack CB instincts to me. I fear Washington is a PBuch clone, Routt is a track star at I'm thinking that Hill is a 3rd CB at best.

Will Derrick Gibson ever develop? Hasn't yet with chances to do so.

Assuming Schweigert starts has he learned to tackle? He may have ballhawk skills but that matters not if he gets laid out by every 190 pound WR coming his way.

Lot's of question to be sure.

However after the last two seasons I have some legitimate hope going into this one.

Al Davis may be an ass but at least he is trying to win which is more than about half the owners around the league can say with a straight face. At times his meddling hurts the team yes but I'd much rather fail trying than not try at all.



Awesome.... two of the best WR's in football and you're hoping for a ground attack/ball control offense. Sounds like a waste of talent to me... fits the Faid just fine!

[Rashid242]

Those stats are misleading, he only made 1 big catch (44 yards) in that game, everything else was of the 10-15 yard variety. Also keep in mind we had O'Neal, Brandon, Ferguson and Herndon as our starting secondary that day and he still only made 1 big play.

Sorry, but Moss does not impress me. I think you'll see when he finally gets on the field in Oakland and isn't the only viable option at receiver, that's he just not that much of a "game changer"

The 44 yarder & the 39 yarder in the 4th quarter to put the game away.

He shouldn't have caught any passes if your going to play Cover 2 all day long.

That my friend is very definition of gamer changer.

[Rashid242]

I hope you don't really mean that.

Nate Burleson, in only his second year, posted a 1000 yard season, and had more catches than Porter, and had as many TDs. I'd take him over Porter and Curry. Porter has yet to get a 1000 yard season.

How about TE Jermaine Wiggins? 71 catches for 705 yards. You'd take Courtney Anderson or Teyo Johnson over Wiggins? Please don't answer that. Anderson and Johnson combined for only 22 catches for 306 yards.

The biggest difference is Culpepper for Collins, which you already said you'd take Culpepper. There is no comparision between the two QBs.

I'd take the Viks O from last year over the Raider O this year. That Viks O led them to an 8-8 season.

I love Nate & Wiggins but nobody game plans for either one of them.

Nate got single coverage against mainly a 3rd corner & he took advantage.

Won't have that now with out Moss.

Most of Wiggins catches were dump off catches. I can't think of one besides the 2nd Packer game when caught a pass down the field.

The Vikings took advantage of using Moss as a decoy against all of those zone defenses.

Porter proved he could be #1 receiver despite being the focal point of a defense. Plus he had no semblance of a running game.

If Moss can make Gus Frerotte look like an All Pro. He can do the same with Collins.

Even if Collins embodies the word inconsistent.

[Jason in LA]

I love Nate & Wiggins but nobody game plans for either one of them.

Nate got single coverage against mainly a 3rd corner & he took advantage.

Won't have that now with out Moss.

Most of Wiggins catches were dump off catches. I can't think of one besides the 2nd Packer game when caught a pass down the field.

The Vikings took advantage of using Moss as a decoy against all of those zone defenses.

Porter proved he could be #1 receiver despite being the focal point of a defense. Plus he had no semblance of a running game.

If Moss can make Gus Frerotte look like an All Pro. He can do the same with Collins.

Even if Collins embodies the word inconsistent.

Moss didn't get the attention he normally gets last year because he was injuried. He missed a few games, and when he was playing he was nowhere near 100%. Teams did focus on other players because of this. Even without a healthy Moss, Culpepper put up career numbers.

Wiggins is a TE, not a deep threat. He's not needed to make plays down field. I'll take a TE that can bail the QB out when the WRs are covered.

Porter a proven #1? When did that happen? The guy was the main option and still didn't get 1000 yards. There have been many great WRs that were the only option and still put up well over 1000 yards. TO was the only good receiver on the Eagles. Every defense focused on him, and he was on pace for a good 1500 yards before he got hurt, and a good 17 TDs. Porter is, and always will be, a middle of the road WR. I'd take Nate Burleson over Porter any day of the week. Nate played well even when Moss was out or not a factor because he wasn't 100%.

[Jason in LA]

The 44 yarder & the 39 yarder in the 4th quarter to put the game away.

He shouldn't have caught any passes if your going to play Cover 2 all day long.

That my friend is very definition of gamer changer.

Cover 2 is a defense that only works with a good pass rush. I'm sick of hearing about cover 2. The Bucs are the only team that's really made that coverage work. That's mostly because their pass rush was so great. The QB had to throw a short and quick pass. And the CBs were waiting in the flats for it.

The Broncos didn't have the pass rush to pull off the cover 2.

[Rashid242]

Moss didn't get the attention he normally gets last year because he was injuried. He missed a few games, and when he was playing he was nowhere near 100%. Teams did focus on other players because of this. Even without a healthy Moss, Culpepper put up career numbers.

Wiggins is a TE, not a deep threat. He's not needed to make plays down field. I'll take a TE that can bail the QB out when the WRs are covered.

Porter a proven #1? When did that happen? The guy was the main option and still didn't get 1000 yards. There have been many great WRs that were the only option and still put up well over 1000 yards. TO was the only good receiver on the Eagles. Every defense focused on him, and he was on pace for a good 1500 yards before he got hurt, and a good 17 TDs. Porter is, and always will be, a middle of the road WR. I'd take Nate Burleson over Porter any day of the week. Nate played well even when Moss was out or not a factor because he wasn't 100%.

Teams treated Randy Moss like Randy Moss when ever he was on the field.

Porter was and is more a #1 then Burleson. If you can't see Porter is a better receiver then Burleson then we can stop debating now. I'm a Viking fan & can see that.

I can't think of one of the Nate's TD's where he beat double coverage or beat a corner like Bailey.

Nate had 2 good games when Moss was out. Against the Packers & Colts.

2 stout defenses.

[Rashid242]

Cover 2 is a defense that only works with a good pass rush. I'm sick of hearing about cover 2. The Bucs are the only team that's really made that coverage work. That's mostly because their pass rush was so great. The QB had to throw a short and quick pass. And the CBs were waiting in the flats for it.

The Broncos didn't have the pass rush to pull off the cover 2.

It didn't work that day but for the most part it can work if you have decent corners & very good coverage safties.

I don't care who you have at corner if you don't play Cover 2 well with good cover safeties he's going to kill you.

[Jason in LA]

Cover 2 is not based on good CB or safety play. That coverage is great for an average CB, because he doesn't have to travel too far. If the pass rush is there the QB is throwing the ball right to where the CB is. Pretty easy to cover. Cover 2 is a bad coverage for safeties, because they are asked to cover way too much field. If the pass rush doesn't get there the safeties are beat. Posts or corner routes will beat the safety everytime. Cover 2 doesn't rely on good DBs. It relies on a great pass rush. The Bucs had one and made that coverage work.

[Jason in LA]

Teams treated Randy Moss like Randy Moss when ever he was on the field.

Porter was and is more a #1 then Burleson. If you can't see Porter is a better receiver then Burleson then we can stop debating now. I'm a Viking fan & can see that.

I can't think of one of the Nate's TD's where he beat double coverage or beat a corner like Bailey.

Nate had 2 good games when Moss was out. Against the Packers & Colts.

2 stout defenses.

You must not have watched Porter too much. Every year he's labled "a rising star". But when is he finally going to have that break out year? It's not going to happen because he's a middle of the road WR. He's as good as Jonnie Morton. He'll never be a star, and I wouldn't want him as my #1 receiver.

[Rashid242]

You must not have watched Porter too much. Every year he's labled "a rising star". But when is he finally going to have that break out year? It's not going to happen because he's a middle of the road WR. He's as good as Jonnie Morton. He'll never be a star, and I wouldn't want him as my #1 receiver.

Again Porter hasn't had the career he should mainly due to injuries but if you can't see that he is more talented then Burleson or Morton then I guess we should stop then.

[DBroncos4life]

Again Porter hasn't had the career he should mainly due to injuries but if you can't see that he is more talented then Burleson or Morton then I guess we should stop then.


In six seasons Porter has yet to get over 1000 yards. Nate did in year two. Both had 9 tds last year. Nate had a better year then Porter last year. Pretty easy to see. More catches, more yards, same number of TDs and he was second fiddle to Moss for how many games? Porter is talented but to say that he IS better then a guy that his career numbers are LESS then is kind of funny.

[Rashid242]

Cover 2 is not based on good CB or safety play. That coverage is great for an average CB, because he doesn't have to travel too far. If the pass rush is there the QB is throwing the ball right to where the CB is. Pretty easy to cover. Cover 2 is a bad coverage for safeties, because they are asked to cover way too much field. If the pass rush doesn't get there the safeties are beat. Posts or corner routes will beat the safety everytime. Cover 2 doesn't rely on good DBs. It relies on a great pass rush. The Bucs had one and made that coverage work.

Cover 2 protects average corners. It is tailored made for coverage safties.

Tight End running down the middle is the best way to foul up Cover 2 but most teams don't have great tight ends.

Tampa in long yardage situation even runs the mike down the middle to take away that.

As you say Cover 2 is better when you have pass rushers but you certainly can be effective with it if you have good cover safeties.

I certainly suspect the Broncos to play Cover against Raiders all day as they did against the Vikings.

The bad thing is Moss beats Cover 2 more then any receiver I've ever seen.

Still it's the safest way to go.

[Rashid242]

In six seasons Porter has yet to get over 1000 yards. Nate did in year two. Both had 9 tds last year. Nate had a better year then Porter last year. Pretty easy to see. More catches, more yards, same number of TDs and he was second fiddle to Moss for how many games? Porter is talented but to say that he IS better then a guy that his career numbers are LESS then is kind of funny.

I watched every game he's played in. Nobody game planned for Burleson.

Again I can't think of 1 of his TD's that he beat a guy the quality of Bailey.

I gurantee you most NFL people in a heartbeat would take Porter over Burleson.

Go to the Viking board & I bet majority would take Porter. It's plain as day.

numbers don't tell the story all of the time.

[DBroncos4life]

I watched every game he's played in. Nobody game planned for Burleson.

Again I can't think of 1 of his TD's that he beat a guy the quality of Bailey.

I gurantee you most NFL people in a heartbeat would take Porter over Burleson.

Go to the Viking board & I bet majority would take Porter. It's plain as day.

numbers don't tell the story all of the time.


You must not have seen Porter play that often then. 11 games Porter went without a TD. Two games he had 3 tds, one in snow. Maybe people would take Porter over Burleson but not me. Nate is younger and cost less. To me they are just about the same.

[Rashid242]

You must not have seen Porter play that often then. 11 games Porter went without a TD. Two games he had 3 tds, one in snow. Maybe people would take Porter over Burleson but not me. Nate is younger and cost less. To me they are just about the same.

Speed- Porter's faster.

Hands- Porter has better hands.

athletic ability- Porter.

Nate doesn't have a single thing over Porter.

I am a Viking fan & can't figure this love all of a sudden for Burleson.

[DBroncos4life]

Speed- Porter's faster.

Hands- Porter has better hands.

athletic ability- Porter.

Nate doesn't have a single thing over Porter.

I am a Viking fan & can't figure this love all of a sudden for Burleson.


Age Burleson 23 Porter 27

Season over 1000 yards Burleson 1 Porter 0

Contract without Bonus Porter
2000 266000.00
2001 332500.00
2002 399000.00
2003 465500.00
2004 557000.00
2005 1000000.00
2006 1000000.00
2007 1000000.00
2008 5200000.00
2009 6400000.00

Burleson
2003 225000.00
2004 305000.00
2005 380000.00

[Atlas]

Speed- Porter's faster.

Hands- Porter has better hands.

athletic ability- Porter.

Nate doesn't have a single thing over Porter.

I am a Viking fan & can't figure this love all of a sudden for Burleson.

Nothing besides younger age
more yards
more catches
cheaper contract
other than that Porter is much better.

[Raider Bill]

You gotta take into account the offenses they played in. Porter played in an offense that challenged the field horizontaly. Burleson has been in a deep ball offense opposite Moss his entire career. I think you'll see what Burleson's really made of this upcoming season.

You wanna talk average recievers? I'll take Oaklands top 4 over Ashley Lelei.

[DBroncos4life]

You gotta take into account the offenses they played in. Porter played in an offense that challenged the field horizontaly. Burleson has been in a deep ball offense opposite Moss his entire career. I think you'll see what Burleson's really made of this upcoming season.

You wanna talk average recievers? I'll take Oaklands top 4 over Ashley Lelei.



Yeah Burleson really played alot with Moss, less then 24 games worth. I thought the only thing Collins did well was throw the ball deep, which would mean that throwing the ball Horizontaly wouldn't have been a problem for him would it? Also take into the fact that Nate is the NUMBER TWO guy NOT the NUMBER ONE guy I think he did pretty well. As for that last coment I guess back to back years picking in the top ten isn't enough for you, take who you want but Lelie has shown more then Curry, Porter, and whoever else is the Raiders WR BESIDES Moss.

[DBroncos4life]

Porters first three years stats 71 catches, 914 yards and 9 tds
Lelies first three years stats 126 catches, 2237 yards and 11 tds

Yeah its a close one.

[SoCalBronco]

You gotta take into account the offenses they played in. Porter played in an offense that challenged the field horizontaly. Burleson has been in a deep ball offense opposite Moss his entire career. I think you'll see what Burleson's really made of this upcoming season.

You wanna talk average recievers? I'll take Oaklands top 4 over Ashley Lelei.

A reciever can never be said to be average if he leads the league in YPC. Ever.

[DBroncos4life]

A reciever can never be said to be average if he leads the league in YPC. Ever.


Lets not forget 7 tds over 30 yards. Avg wr's do that every year...oh wait they don't.

[RunByDesign]

This will be you Browncos nightmare.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/06/21/first.person0627/lg_jordan.jpg

Evander Holyfield? Ha!

[Raider Bill]

A reciever can never be said to be average if he leads the league in YPC. Ever.


With Todd friggin Pinkston nipping at his heels.. He catches EVERYTHING along the sideline. He's nowhere near as physical as any of Oaklands top 4 nor can he challenge the entire field.

[Raider Bill]

Porters first three years stats 71 catches, 914 yards and 9 tds
Lelies first three years stats 126 catches, 2237 yards and 11 tds

Yeah its a close one.


Porter was selected a round lower, making a position switch from college and going to a team that had 2 hall of fame wide recievers, and for whatever reason got into Grudens doghouse.

[Rashid242]

Nothing besides younger age
more yards
more catches
cheaper contract
other than that Porter is much better.


Porters 26.

Well see if he has more yards this year.

Catches can be overrated. Yards & TD's are the measuring stick.

Porter>Burleson.

[DBroncos4life]

Porters 26.

Well see if he has more yards this year.

Catches can be overrated. Yards & TD's are the measuring stick.

Porter>Burleson.


He turnes 27 in 10 days or so. As far as yards and TD's being the measuring stick thats great because Nate had more yards and the SAME amount of TD's as Porter.

[Jason in LA]

Porter was selected a round lower, making a position switch from college and going to a team that had 2 hall of fame wide recievers, and for whatever reason got into Grudens doghouse.

So what has Porter done the past two years, when the 2 HOF WRs weren't really in his way? Nothing of note. You Raider fans need to stop making excuses for the guy and realize that he's just a middle of the read WR.

[Jason in LA]

Again Porter hasn't had the career he should mainly due to injuries but if you can't see that he is more talented then Burleson or Morton then I guess we should stop then.

Do you normally stop debating with people at the first disagreement.

Porter's lack of production can't be blamed on injuries. He's had his share, just like all other players, but his career hasn't been hampered by injuries. That's just another lame excuse for why he hasn't had that breatout seasons yet. At some point people are going to have to realize that he's just a middle of the road WR. Even if you believe he's better than Burleson, he's still a middle of the road WR. He still hasn't done anything of note.

[SoCalBronco]

Porter was selected a round lower, making a position switch from college and going to a team that had 2 hall of fame wide recievers, and for whatever reason got into Grudens doghouse.

His draft status is not relevant, Bill. Your saying Porter is better than Lelie. Its a question of who's better, draft status is irrelevant, thats not the question. If Porter is better, than he is better and draft status is irrelevant in the analysis, the same is true vice versa. Whether Im a 7th round draft pick or 1st round draft pick has nothing to do with who has played better. Its an irrelevant consideration.

With regard to him going to a team with 2 HOF WRs, yeah he might not have had as many oppurtunities to get the ball, but a similar argument can be made for Ash. While neither might reach the Hall, Eddie Mac and Rod Smith have both been very fine and entrenched NFL starting WRs for awhile before Ash was drafted. In addition, during Ash's first two seasons, Shannon Sharpe also took away a substantial amount of balls, a significant portion of which would have likely gone Lelie's way, so the two HOF WRs argument doesnt work.

Your final point is irrelevant like the first one. Whether Porter was in the dog house or not isnt relevant. Why should Lelie be punished when comparing the two because Porter found his way, for whatever reason, into Coach Gruden's doghouse. That's irrelevant. The statistical differentials between Lelie and Porter over their first three years is significant, it isnt close. Youve pointed out that Lelie is primarily a sideline guy and doesnt do much in other areas of the field. Since there is the implied argument that Porter does stuff all around the field, he should have been able to make up some if not all of the statistical shortfall. He didnt.

There isnt an argument to be made here Bill. Lelie was a whisker short of 1100 yards. Porter has never had a 1000 yard season. Lelie most likely led the league or was in the Top Five in drawing PI yardage for his team. Moreoever, Lelie caught at least 2 balls over 30 yards where the refs made an incorrect call and didnt give him the catch and was in a position to make far more plays had Plummer been more accurate. Porter has occasionally had very good games.

Lelie is a better and more productive WR. I really dont see how this is in dispute.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Lelie is a better and more productive WR. I really dont see how this is in dispute.

Lelie - 27 starts, 2237 yards, 11 TD

Porter - 32 starts, 2273 yards, 19 TD

Looks like a draw to me, except Porter has the edge in TDs.

And Porter's not a pussy.

[SoCalBronco]

Lelie - 27 starts, 2237 yards, 11 TD

Porter - 32 starts, 2273 yards, 19 TD

Looks like a draw to me, except Porter has the edge in TDs.

And Porter's not a p***Y.

How is it a draw Bob? Porter has started 5 more games? WTF.

If they played the same number of games, Lelie probably has 300 yards more than Porter although he is likely would not have as many TDs. There is also the inherent bias towards Porter there because your adding on starts in Porter's 4th year where he has had more experience and oppurtunity to get better.

[Jason in LA]

Cover 2 protects average corners. It is tailored made for coverage safties.

Tight End running down the middle is the best way to foul up Cover 2 but most teams don't have great tight ends.

Tampa in long yardage situation even runs the mike down the middle to take away that.

As you say Cover 2 is better when you have pass rushers but you certainly can be effective with it if you have good cover safeties.

I certainly suspect the Broncos to play Cover against Raiders all day as they did against the Vikings.

The bad thing is Moss beats Cover 2 more then any receiver I've ever seen.

Still it's the safest way to go.

I'd say cover 2 is the worst coverage for safeties. If there is no pass rush it is the safeties that are going to look like crap. If the QB has time to throw, and the WR runs a corner, and he will be open, who's fault is it going to be? The safety, who really don't have much of a chance to defend that route. If the safety is over playing the corner then the WR will run a post on him. Elway and Rod Smith set up Eugene Robinson with that in Super Bowl XXXIII. Atl was in cover 2, and Robinson was cheating too far to the sidelines so he could cover the outside deep patterns. Rod fakes to the outside, then cuts to the middle. Robinson never had a chance. Asking the safeties to cover half the field is too much, unless there is a great pass rush, making it much easier for them. Like you said before, run a TE down the middle of the field and the safeties can't cover it. The MLB has to cover way deeper than he normally does.

If I'm playing against a dink and dunk offense, and my team has a great pass rush, then cover 2 is perfect. Like in the Super Bowl with the Raiders and Bucs. That was a perfect matchup for the Bucs. The Raiders ran what the Bucs were best at stopping. But if it's a team that throws the ball down field, no way I run cover 2. A safety all by himself with Randy Moss, and half the field to cover, no thanks.

[Kaylore]

His draft status is not relevant, Bill. Your saying Porter is better than Lelie. Its a question of who's better, draft status is irrelevant, thats not the question. If Porter is better, than he is better and draft status is irrelevant in the analysis, the same is true vice versa. Whether Im a 7th round draft pick or 1st round draft pick has nothing to do with who has played better. Its an irrelevant consideration.

With regard to him going to a team with 2 HOF WRs, yeah he might not have had as many oppurtunities to get the ball, but a similar argument can be made for Ash. While neither might reach the Hall, Eddie Mac and Rod Smith have both been very fine and entrenched NFL starting WRs for awhile before Ash was drafted. In addition, during Ash's first two seasons, Shannon Sharpe also took away a substantial amount of balls, a significant portion of which would have likely gone Lelie's way, so the two HOF WRs argument doesnt work.

Your final point is irrelevant like the first one. Whether Porter was in the dog house or not isnt relevant. Why should Lelie be punished when comparing the two because Porter found his way, for whatever reason, into Coach Gruden's doghouse. That's irrelevant. The statistical differentials between Lelie and Porter over their first three years is significant, it isnt close. Youve pointed out that Lelie is primarily a sideline guy and doesnt do much in other areas of the field. Since there is the implied argument that Porter does stuff all around the field, he should have been able to make up some if not all of the statistical shortfall. He didnt.

There isnt an argument to be made here Bill. Lelie was a whisker short of 1100 yards. Porter has never had a 1000 yard season. Lelie most likely led the league or was in the Top Five in drawing PI yardage for his team. Moreoever, Lelie caught at least 2 balls over 30 yards where the refs made an incorrect call and didnt give him the catch and was in a position to make far more plays had Plummer been more accurate. Porter has occasionally had very good games.

Lelie is a better and more productive WR. I really dont see how this is in dispute.

Nice post Wabbit. Took the words out of my mouth. I would be very suspect of one of the the few receivers that wasn't able to break 1,000 yards with the new rule enforcement. Sure, you could argue that all the Fade's opponents just kept their safeties back the whole time because they didn't respect their run game, but when your QB is throwing over 500+ times a season, you expect that to translate into better stats on the receivers' end. Not so much the case with Porter.

[Jason in LA]

Lelie - 27 starts, 2237 yards, 11 TD

Porter - 32 starts, 2273 yards, 19 TD

Looks like a draw to me, except Porter has the edge in TDs.

And Porter's not a p***Y.

Porter has played 5 seasons, Lelie has played 3 seasons. Their numbers after their 3rd year was posted on the last page. It wasn't even close. Lelie in a blowout.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

How is it a draw Bob? Porter has started 5 more games? WTF.

If they played the same number of games, Lelie probably has 300 yards more than Porter although he is likely would not have as many TDs. There is also the inherent bias towards Porter there because your adding on starts in Porter's 4th year where he has had more experience and oppurtunity to get better.

It's pretty close to a draw. Anyway, I'd rather have Porter. Remember, he didn't even have a running game. And I'd say Plummer is better than Collins.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Porter has played 5 seasons, Lelie has played 3 seasons. Their numbers after their 3rd year was posted on the last page. It wasn't even close. Lelie in a blowout.

Porter barely saw the field his first two years.

19 touchdowns vs 11. Yeah, it's a real blowout.

[SoCalBronco]

Porter barely saw the field his first two years.
19 touchdowns vs 11. Yeah, it's a real blowout.

This is an argument that benefits Lelie not Porter. Denver had Smith, McCaffrey and Sharpe and Lelie was still able to do damage. To be sure, Oakland had two very good WRs as well, but a TE not as good and your conceding Porter didnt do jack first two years.

You doubted Lelie last season and got burned. Now your doing the same again and you will get burned again.

[wabbit]

Nice post Wabbit. Took the words out of my mouth...

You mean SoCal don't you Kaylore??

Just a note to separate the two

If it contains pertinent, significant statistical fact, it's probably SoCal.

If it's bombastic commentary...that's me.

[Jason in LA]

Porter barely saw the field his first two years.

19 touchdowns vs 11. Yeah, it's a real blowout.

That's his own fault. He should have been better.

Let me know when he gets a 1000 yard season.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'm not doubting Lelie. He's about as good as Porter and both will have fine seasons this year.

And I really don't see how that argument benefits Lelie. Lelie was obviously better earlier in his career, but that doesn't matter now.

[watermock]

Well, I got all the regional HornHead games. True, Burleson was opposite Moss, but Moss missed 7 games and took alot of plays off. He was hurt just about all year. All Nate did was get open, and I can't remember the last ball he dropped. He's not super fast, super strong, or anything. It just seemed like he's got that instictive ability to get open. It was uncanny. He was much more consistent than Moss, quite honestly, and the best third down reciever last year, by far. I don't know how the guy did it, but he's got whatever "it" is.

[DBroncos4life]

Lelie - 27 starts, 2237 yards, 11 TD

Porter - 32 starts, 2273 yards, 19 TD

Looks like a draw to me, except Porter has the edge in TDs.

And Porter's not a p***Y.



What makes me laugh even more here is that out of 69 total games Porter could only get on the field and start for 32 of them. He's missed time because hes been hurt, but remember Porters not a pussy. Bob also leaves off some other stats like plays over 20 yards. You would think with 32 starts he would have the edge here. Porter has 35 while, Lelie has 41. Plays over 40 yards Lelie has 13, Porter has 5. Lelie is also avg just a tad less then 4 yards a catch more then Porter as well. Also Bob something that you may want to learn is just because the WR didn't START the game doesn't mean that he didn't see action in the game. Regardless I don't think you should fault Lelie for developing faster and being able to start 16 games before his 5th NFL season.

[Rashid242]

Well, I got all the regional HornHead games. True, Burleson was opposite Moss, but Moss missed 7 games and took alot of plays off. He was hurt just about all year. All Nate did was get open, and I can't remember the last ball he dropped. He's not super fast, super strong, or anything. It just seemed like he's got that instictive ability to get open. It was uncanny. He was much more consistent than Moss, quite honestly, and the best third down reciever last year, by far. I don't know how the guy did it, but he's got whatever "it" is.

I don't care if Moss went out & sat indian style on the line of scrimmage.

He drew the attention away from everybody & Nate made a living off of that.

Out of those 5 games Moss missed Nate had 2 stellar games. Against the Packers & Colts.

Nate does have it but not as a 1 receiver when team now will be divising schemes for him.

Porter has faced that this year & did relatively well.

[OrangeShadow]

i highly doubt you O line can keepp up with our lbs

[Raider Bill]

. Porter has never had a 1000 yard season. .

I like how this keeps getting brought up like he never approached 1000 yards when in fact he had 998 or something. Talk about irrevelant.

Apples to oranges, Porter came into an offense, where he was at best the 4th option and Gannon hardly ever made it past his 3rd read.


Todd Pinkston has a high Career YPC but isnt a good WR.

[Raider Bill]

dupe post

[Raider Bill]

And dont give me Smith and McCafferty, if Porter was selected by the Broncos McCafferty would have been riding pine.

Lelei is a one trick pony running sideline routes against 2nd corners.

[bendog]

damn, I thought it was otis sistrunk for a minute. Scared me.

[Raider Bill]

Anyhow a critique of Oaklands recievers rings kind of hollow coming from a Denver fan. If I use your strict numbers criteria and throw you a bone with Lelie

Moss>Smith
Lelie>Porter
Curry>Watts
Gabriel>Rice

[fontaine]

And dont give me Smith and McCafferty, if Porter was selected by the Broncos McCafferty would have been riding pine.

Lelei is a one trick pony running sideline routes against 2nd corners.

You were doing fine until you made this asinine comment.

It was only in his third year that Porter was allowed on the field as a 3rd WR and then struggled badly in 2003 when he was the primary WR and not working off of nickel and dime defenders.

Porter was on the bench and then struggled when handed the starting gig because he had yet to fully learn the nuances of the WR position like reading defenses, adjusting routes and setting up his defender with great moves. That's why Rice/Brown kept him on the bench for so long.

Porter has great size/speed and is a very good possession WR that has enough speed to go deep. But it took him five years to fully learn that and become a more polished product.

As far as Lelie goes, they are two different WRs. Lelie is much more of a deep threat while Porter is more possession but also has great speed. Porter is definitely the more polished WR but he should be since he'll be going into his 6th year and Lelie his 4th.

[Beantown Bronco]

Anyhow a critique of Oaklands recievers rings kind of hollow coming from a Denver fan. If I use your strict numbers criteria and throw you a bone with Lelie

Moss>Smith
Lelie>Porter
Curry>Watts
Gabriel>Rice

Huh? Anyone who says they are using strict numbers and then has Rice in last place needs to have their head examined.

(and don't say just last year's numbers, because nowhere in this thread are we limiting it to just last year's numbers. And even if we did, Rice still had comparable, if not better, numbers)

[Raider Bill]

Huh? Anyone who says they are using strict numbers and then has Rice in last place needs to have their head examined.

(and don't say just last year's numbers, because nowhere in this thread are we limiting it to just last year's numbers. And even if we did, Rice still had comparable, if not better, numbers)


Isn't Rice your 3rd or hopefully your 4th reciever... Gabriel is ours and caught more balls than Rice last season.


Dont try to bring Rice's numbers from even 2002 into it because they're hardly relevant.

[Beantown Bronco]

Rice will most likely be #4 and he had more TDs last season than Gabriel....so who needs to look at 2002?

[Raider Bill]

Heh, he had a whopping 1 more TD, 3 less catches, and 120 less yards.


Gabriel owned Rice in every statistical category, first downs, 20+,40+ , Yards per catch etc. The relative age greatly outweighs that lone TD seperating them.

[DBroncos4life]

Heh, he had a whopping 1 more TD, 3 less catches, and 120 less yards.


Gabriel owned Rice in every statistical category, first downs, 20+,40+ , Yards per catch etc. The relative age greatly outweighs that lone TD seperating them.



But yet you have Moss over Smith even though he had LESS catches and LESS yards. But youre right Raiders fan you guys are the greatest passing team now in the modern era. Manning and boys move over because here comes Collins and the 9 wins in two years boys!!!

[Florida_Bronco]

Anyhow a critique of Oaklands recievers rings kind of hollow coming from a Denver fan. If I use your strict numbers criteria and throw you a bone with Lelie

Moss>Smith

Sorry I have to disagree with this somewhat. Smith is more reliable and a team player, he brings many things to the table that cannot be measured and Moss will never have, and Smith plays when the team needs him to play Moss plays when he wants to play.

Age is the only reason I would ever consider taking Moss over Smith, but I should add that when Rod was younger, he was also very dangerous. I'd take Smith and his unselfish ways over Randy's talent and his "me first" attitude.

Lelie>Porter

Can't argue there, but I think Porter has the talent to be a very good WR.

Curry>Watts

I'll wait until I see how Watts does this year before I disagree with you on that.

Gabriel>Rice

Rice is on the downside of his career, Gabriel is an up and comer, hard to compare really. But at this point I think Gabriel may very well have more impact with the Raiders than Rice will here, but we'll have to see.

[Rashid242]

I know this is a Bronco board & I come in peace but let's not argue that.

From statistics to historical standing it's not even close.

[Florida_Bronco]

I know this is a Bronco board & I come in peace but let's not argue that.

From statistics to historical standing it's not even close.

There is more to being a football player then putting up good stats, it's called being a hard worker and a team player, something Smith is and Moss isn't.

I don't know if you've ever played organized football, but if you have, you should know how much of an effect someones attitude can have on your team.

[Raider Bill]

Sorry I have to disagree with this somewhat. Smith is more reliable and a team player, he brings many things to the table that cannot be measured and Moss will never have, and Smith plays when the team needs him to play Moss plays when he wants to play.

Age is the only reason I would ever consider taking Moss over Smith, but I should add that when Rod was younger, he was also very dangerous. I'd take Smith and his unselfish ways over Randy's talent and his "me first" attitude.



Can't argue there, but I think Porter has the talent to be a very good WR.



I'll wait until I see how Watts does this year before I disagree with you on that.



Rice is on the downside of his career, Gabriel is an up and comer, hard to compare really. But at this point I think Gabriel may very well have more impact with the Raiders than Rice will here, but we'll have to see.


This wasn't necessarily directed at you but at those throwing around disparaging remarks at Oakland's recievers and twisting the argument however it put's the Denver recievers in the best possible light.

[SoCalBronco]

This wasn't necessarily directed at you but at those throwing around disparaging remarks at Oakland's recievers and twisting the argument however it put's the Denver recievers in the best possible light.

Bill, your avoiding the argument. This is like the old, now out of date and out of favor legal objection of "self serving". Well OFCOURSE ITS SELF SERVING, otherwise I wouldnt offer it.

Its not whether something is self serving, its whether the argument, independent of who is making it, can stand on its own two feet. I really hate to invoke LABF, but as he has pointed out, 2+2=4 no matter who is putting the equation on the blackboard. Its useless to say "you guys are twisting facts to support your team". We are supporting our team but its in dispute whether we are simply "using facts to make an argument" or "twisting them". Address the actual arguments, Bill.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Bill, your avoiding the argument. This is like the old, now out of date and out of favor legal objection of "self serving". Well OFCOURSE ITS SELF SERVING, otherwise I wouldnt offer it.

Its not whether something is self serving, its whether the argument, independent of who is making it, can stand on its own two feet. I really hate to invoke LABF, but as he has pointed out, 2+2=4 no matter who is putting the equation on the blackboard. Its useless to say "you guys are twisting facts to support your team". We are supporting our team but its in dispute whether we are simply "using facts to make an argument" or "twisting them". Address the actual arguments, Bill.

Damn SoCal. You sound like you are ready to be appointed as a judge now. No more of this simple lawyer stuff :D

[SoCalBronco]

Damn SoCal. You sound like you are ready to be appointed as a judge now. No more of this simple lawyer stuff :D

Nah Bro. :) I just like picking on rival fans, although Bill is pretty decent and knowledgeable for a Raider fan.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Nah Bro. :) I just like picking on rival fans, although Bill is pretty decent and knowledgeable for a Raider fan.

Well if Rehnquist retires I think you should volunteer. Would be a popular pick here. Probably even LABF and WAGS would agree.

[SoCalBronco]

Well if Rehnquist retires I think you should volunteer. Would be a popular pick here. Probably even LABF and WAGS would agree.

If LABF and W*GS ever agreed, it would be a sign of the end times. And i certainly dont want to be responsible for the end of the world. ;D

Thanks for the nice words though, Big Guy. :)

[Bob's your Information Minister]

This thread is funny.

[Raider Bill]

It doesn't matter what I say, people here bring in some tangential argument about why it's not so and act as if they are standing on firm ground.

If you had to choose up sides, whose recievers would you take?

[SoCalBronco]

It doesn't matter what I say, people here bring in some tangential argument about why it's not so and act as if they are standing on firm ground.

If you had to choose up sides, whose recievers would you take?

Even though you think we are all a bunch of homers, i dont think you will find too many people who will say Oakland's WR corps as a whole is not as good as Denver's as a whole. Given that, I continue to disagree with you on Lelie vs. Porter. I actually dont believe its close for the many reasons i have stated. Regarding Rod vs. Moss, while i agree with DB that Moss is a cancer and is lackadaisical in his play and doesnt have much leadership skills (i dont think yelling that he isnt getting the ball or just "getting pissed" after a loss is is leadership), he still is unquestionably a better wide reciever than Rod Smith although i think Rod is a great WR himself, its just the Moss is probably one of the 2 best in the league and arguably the best. As to Ronald Curry versus Darius Watts. Right now, id say Curry is ahead but the issue is sufficiently cloudy such that I dont think its pure homerism to suggest that its an open question. Watts certainly had a decent year for a rookie WR, outpacing several of those drafting far higher, including but not limited to Reggie Williams, a top 10 selection, Rashaun Woods and Michael Jenkins, both first round selections respectively. He does have a problem with the dropsies but shows a special ability to beat the press despite his rail thin frame and is ahead of his time in finding the windows in zones and getting seperation generally. 32/400 is nothing to sniff at for a rookie wideout. Curry is, right now, probably better but the organization feels very good about Watts after recently reviewing each and every one of his snaps (see past PFW column) and grading him on film. In addition, I dont know if i am remembering correctly or not (i trust you will correct me if i am wrong), but didnt Curry suffer a key injury. On the whole though, right now Curry is better, but for these reasons and others i think there is sufficient cloudiness on the issue so that someone else cant say your making a choice based purely on homerism when i say i feel fairly good about the proposition that Watts will be a pretty good WR this year and possibly better than Curry. Its an open question right now, with a lean to Curry though.

Doug Gabriel is unquestionably better than anyone we have on our roster besides our starters. I thought he was tremendous the first few games and was Oakland's best WR. I think highly of Gabriel in particular so i wont question that one.

On the whole, I admit on a pure talent level they are better (although as i have pointed out, i think Lelie is substantially better than Porter), but there are key questions as to the consistency of these players (Porter), and character/work ethic (Moss). As a whole you are more talented though, there is no question. Only Detroit has a better corps of WRs, although they are greener than Oakland's group.

[Raider Bill]

Lelei's entire repertoire is "go deep" he's a slightly better version of Todd Pinkston. Porter is the superior all around reciever, who wasnt brought into a situation where they were dying for a WR to pan out. You had two of the best recievers of all time like I said and Charlie Garner getting more balls thrown his way than Sharpe did.

[Mr. Trout]

Heh, he had a whopping 1 more TD, 3 less catches, and 120 less yards.


Gabriel owned Rice in every statistical category, first downs, 20+,40+ , Yards per catch etc. The relative age greatly outweighs that lone TD seperating them.


If you are talking about Doug ****ing Gabriel shut your mouth.. When the faider bitches make the playoffs talk ****.

[Raider Bill]

One personnel director from an AFC team still seeking to upgrade at the No. 2 wide receiver spot before camp said he will definitely consider Rod Gardner in free agency once the Washington Redskins decide to release the former first-rounder. But he also said he has recently reviewed videotape of a few young wide receivers for whom he would consider trading. At the top of the list of young pass-catchers he might pursue in a deal is two-year veteran Doug Gabriel of the Oakland Raiders. Gabriel, 24, could get lost in the shuffle in Oakland, where the Raiders will deploy Randy Moss, Jerry Porter and Ronald Curry on third-down situations.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2097888&num=2

[Raider Bill]

I doubt he gets "lost in the shuffle" unless Johnny Morrant is coming on quicker than expected.

[Mr. Trout]

Isn't this a broncos board..who gives a flyin **** about johnnie morant.

[SoCalBronco]

I doubt he gets "lost in the shuffle" unless Johnny Morrant is coming on quicker than expected.

As i noted earlier, i think pretty highly of Gabriel. He was really good the first half of the season. Morant has a well sculpted physique but i dunno if there is anything up in his head and he is raw generally.

[TheNextStep]

I take the weekend off to dazzle my neighbors with my grill-master powers and light off a sh*tload of fireworks...

And I come back to a thread where people are arguing that Rod Smith is a better #1 receiver than Randy Moss is?

Unbelievable.

[jspchief]

Ironic that this thread was started to take focus off of Chokeland's WRs and put it on their RB, and morphs into a cock fight over WRs.

In response to the thread starter, It really doesn't matter if Lamont Jordan is the next Gale Sayers. When the Faders are down 28 points midway through the 2nd qtr, they'll have to abandon the run anyway.

[rbackfactory80]

oh I had 1000 yards and you had 957 therefore I am better. Give me a break people. Porter is solid lelie is solid ,after that it is all b.s. Oh and Bob, worry about the Chiefs wide receivers.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

oh I had 1000 yards and you had 957 therefore I am better. Give me a break people. Porter is solid lelie is solid ,after that it is all b.s. Oh and Bob, worry about the Chiefs wide receivers.

I generally don't worry about our passing attack at all, seeing as how it's the best in the division.

[Atlas]

I generally don't worry about our passing attack at all, seeing as how it's the best in the division.

That will change this year. The Broncos will be improved and the Raiders will be very hard to stop.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

That will change this year. The Broncos will be improved and the Raiders will be very hard to stop.

Yeah, you wish. All of you seem to forget the driving force in any passing attack is the man who takes the snaps. And right now, we have the best one in the division.

[Rashid242]

There is more to being a football player then putting up good stats, it's called being a hard worker and a team player, something Smith is and Moss isn't.

I don't know if you've ever played organized football, but if you have, you should know how much of an effect someones attitude can have on your team.

Look I have a ton of respect for Rod Smith. However who do defensive coordinators fear more?

It don't have anything to do with numbers. That's called impact on a football game.

[Tombstone RJ]

Yeah, you wish. All of you seem to forget the driving force in any passing attack is the man who takes the snaps. And right now, we have the best one in the division.

I can't argue with you on KC's passing attack, its good. However, I'm willing to bet that the faid's passing attack is goint to be the best in the division, and that SD will have an extremely potent passing attack too with the addition of Vincent Jackson and McCardell, and Antonio Gates developing. One thing is for sure, the running games of all the teams in the AFCW is going to be fun to watch.

[RukdaFaidas]

I never thought I'd say it, but I agree with the Raider fans on everything:

Moss > Smith
Porter > Lelie and Burleson
Curry and Gabriel > Watts and whoever

Porter's numbers have been affected by both injury and Al. Porter was in a contract dispute last year and I totally believe Al shut him off. Yes, it's totally rediculous to not throw the ball to your best receiver, but Al would, and has, cut off his nasty looking nose to spite his face.....can you say Marcus Allen.
Moss is the most talented receiver in the NFL, and I can't believe there are some here saying they don't fear him. As a Chiefs fan, I definitely fear him. And don't give me that "well, we have Champ and you don't" stuff. If Kennison can beat Champ, Moss might just flat out tear him up.

[rbackfactory80]

I agree Lelie needs to get better, especially catching balls over the middle. He is basically a deep specialist.

[Florida_Bronco]

Look I have a ton of respect for Rod Smith. However who do defensive coordinators fear more?

It don't have anything to do with numbers. That's called impact on a football game.

If I am a defensive coordinator (but I'm not) I don't "fear" any of them.

Moss may be the better player on the field at this point, but Rod is a better overall asset to his team, PERIOD.

[MT-Tdawg]

Yeah, you wish. All of you seem to forget the driving force in any passing attack is the man who takes the snaps. And right now, we have the best one in the division.

This is the year Trint goes does down like Michael Jackson at an elementary school Bob.

[RaiderH8r]

This will be you Browncos nightmare.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/06/21/first.person0627/lg_jordan.jpg
That looks like a career backup....only worse.

[Rashid242]

If I am a defensive coordinator (but I'm not) I don't "fear" any of them.

Moss may be the better player on the field at this point, but Rod is a better overall asset to his team, PERIOD.

Your a homer & that's fine. I'll take the asset that's going to the Hall of Fame.

Headcase or not.

[Florida_Bronco]

Your a homer & that's fine. I'll take the asset that's going to the Hall of Fame.

Headcase or not.

I wouldn't call it being a homer, I'd call it being smart about the personnel you have on your team.

There are lots of people in the hall of fame that never helped their team win a championship, It's too early to tell, but I'd say Moss may very well be one of those players. Smith, on the other hand, was a vital part of our Super Bowl teams and is still vital now.

Don't confuse that with saying that winning a SB makes you a superior player, but you get my point.

[Florida_Bronco]

Also I should add, that I used to like Randy Moss when he first came out, before his antics and when his me first attitude wasn't really there, but even then I still would have rather had Smith then Moss.

[Montaq]

His twin may be though... and that does scare me! haha

Except one is an evil evil man and the other is dictator of N Korea.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

This is the year Trint goes does down like Michael Jackson at an elementary school Bob.

You wish. Most durable QB in the NFL!

[elsid13]

You wish. Most durable QB in the NFL!


Kiss of Death. Thanks boob

[TheNextStep]

If I am a defensive coordinator (but I'm not) I don't "fear" any of them.

Moss may be the better player on the field at this point, but Rod is a better overall asset to his team, PERIOD.

In ten seasons, Rod Smith has 59 touchdowns.
In seven seasons, Randy Moss has 90 touchdowns.

You're talking out of your asset. Period.

[Rashid242]

Also I should add, that I used to like Randy Moss when he first came out, before his antics and when his me first attitude wasn't really there, but even then I still would have rather had Smith then Moss.

Rather have & being a better player is a different scenario.

I'm cool with that.

[Raiders Rock]

In ten seasons, Rod Smith has 59 touchdowns.
In seven seasons, Randy Moss has 90 touchdowns.

You're talking out of your asset. Period.


And thats all I got to say about that
http://www.keryx.se/forrestgump/gumpjenny.jpg

[Atlas]

In ten seasons, Rod Smith has 59 touchdowns.
In seven seasons, Randy Moss has 90 touchdowns.

You're talking out of your asset. Period.

In 10 seasons Rod has won 2 SBs and is the unquestioned leader of his team. In 7 seasons Moss has been a cancer and a distraction for his team and then he was run out of town.

[Raiders Rock]

In 10 seasons Rod has won 2 SBs and is the unquestioned leader of his team. In 7 seasons Moss has been a cancer and a distraction for his team and then he was run out of town.

Teams aren't judged by just one player, teams are judged by how much Pam you put on your uniform and how many illegal leg whips you can compete in any given SB run.

RR

[Atlas]

Teams aren't judged by just one player, teams are judged by how much Pam you put on your uniform and how many illegal leg whips you can complete in any given SB run.

RR

Denver's blocking technigue is legal. If you don't like it take it up with the league.

[Beantown Bronco]

You wish. Most durable QB in the NFL!

Obviously Bob never heard of Peyton Manning.....Tell me, where was Trent Green in the 99 season? Dumbass.

[Montaq]

Obviously Bob never heard of Peyton Manning.....Tell me, where was Trent Green in the 99 season? Dumbass.

I think, Brett Favre has been "fairly" durable. ???

[RaiderH8r]

Teams aren't judged by just one player, teams are judged by how much Pam you put on your uniform and how many illegal leg whips you can compete in any given SB run.

RR
The Fade crying foul play...that's funny.

[DBroncos4life]

You wish. Most durable QB in the NFL!



I'm never shocked that you think a KC player is the BEST in the NFL at something....


Farve games 209 games started 205
Manning games 112 games started 112
Green games 88 games started 83

Green missed the WHOLE 99 season with an injury.

[TheNextStep]

In 10 seasons Rod has won 2 SBs and is the unquestioned leader of his team. In 7 seasons Moss has been a cancer and a distraction for his team and then he was run out of town.

During those Super Bowl years, Smith was UNQUESTIONABLY relegated to the back seat in the leadership department by John Elway and Terrell Davis. Since Rod Smith has become the unquestioned leader of his team (which I dispute anyway, citing Al Wilson as such) you guys haven't gotten past the first round of the playoffs.

Let's not even pretend to make it out as if Rod Smith was the piece of the puzzle that got Denver there... because everyone knows that's a load of crap.

[rbackfactory80]

In ten seasons, Rod Smith has 59 touchdowns.
In seven seasons, Randy Moss has 90 touchdowns.

You're talking out of your asset. Period.


90 touchdowns with a real qb but now things have changed.

[TheNextStep]

90 touchdowns with a real qb but now things have changed.

Right... because when he was making Jeff George, Gus Frerotte, and Todd freakin' Bouman look like all-pro's, it was because they were "real QBs."

rofl

Since Jake Plummer took over as Rod Smith's quarterback, he's scored exactly 10 touchdowns.

Kerry Collins has exactly 2 seasons where he threw 20 or more interceptions. In two fewer seasons in the league, Jake Plummer already managed to toss 20 INTs in a year 5 times.

What was that about "real QBs" again?

Go ahead... throw stones.... rofl

[Florida_Bronco]

In ten seasons, Rod Smith has 59 touchdowns.
In seven seasons, Randy Moss has 90 touchdowns.

You're talking out of your asset. Period.

Rod also had to compete for those touchdowns with Eddie Mac, Shannon Sharpe and the Broncos great running game...but to be fair let's throw this out there...

Rod's 2 best seasons (2000 & 2001)

- 113 rec 1343 yds 11.9 avg 65 long 11 tds (14 rec over 20yds)
- 100 rec 1602 yds 16.0 avg 49 long 8 tds (30 rec over 20 yds)

Randy's 2 best seasons (2002 & 2003)

- 111 rec 1632 yds 14.7 avg 72 long 17 tds (27 rec over 20 yds)
- 106 rec 1347 yds 12.7 avg 60 long 7 tds (19 rec over 20 yds)

Remember that in 2000 Eddie Mac also had 100+ receptions, which took some away from Rod, and Mike Anderson ran for 1487 yds. Bottom line is that in their 2 peak years, they were very comparable statistically.

[rbackfactory80]

Right... because when he was making Jeff George, Gus Frerotte, and Todd freakin' Bouman look like all-pro's, it was because they were "real QBs."

rofl

Since Jake Plummer took over as Rod Smith's quarterback, he's scored exactly 10 touchdowns.

Kerry Collins has exactly 2 seasons where he threw 20 or more interceptions. In two fewer seasons in the league, Jake Plummer already managed to toss 20 INTs in a year 5 times.

What was that about "real QBs" again?

Go ahead... throw stones.... rofl

Cmon man 2 players are not going to spring you from a 5 win team to an 11 win team. Broncos will win at oakland and mile high that is a promise.

Trevor crush that puss collins.

[Raider Bill]

Trevor crush that puss collins..

This dude may have something to say about that.

http://www.theraiderzone.com/photos/gallery02.jpg

[Bob's your Information Minister]

.

This dude may have something to say about that.

http://www.theraiderzone.com/photos/gallery02.jpg

Is he moving to LT? If not he will be dominating Courtney Brown's creaky ass.

[SoCalBronco]

.

This dude may have something to say about that.

http://www.theraiderzone.com/photos/gallery02.jpg

I thought Gallery was still at RT, Bill? If so, he wont be going up against Trevor.

[jspchief]

I thought Gallery was still at RT, Bill? If so, he wont be going up against Trevor.Actually, aren't they moving him to guard?

[rbackfactory80]

.

This dude may have something to say about that.

http://www.theraiderzone.com/photos/gallery02.jpg

No doubt Bill he is a beast.

[SoCalBronco]

Gallery is a very good player. I remember watching him in the preseason and he played well. He had some rocky areas in ther regular season but was still a good player in Year 1. The AFC West has some good young tackles in Gallery, Foster and i think San Diego got a real good steal in Wesley Britt.

[Raider Bill]

Nah.. actually he's still going to play the Right side. The thinking is that Gallery RT/Simms LT > Gallery LT/ Anyone else RT, and I'm inclined to agree with them. Simms isn't much of a run blocker to be playing the strong side.

[Raider Bill]

Langston Walker was having trouble with pass pro since we're doing more 7 step stuff. Dude was nails with the WCO, but was getting beat to his outside with the deeper drops. They slid him over to RG for now at 6'8".

[Rashid242]

Rod also had to compete for those touchdowns with Eddie Mac, Shannon Sharpe and the Broncos great running game...but to be fair let's throw this out there...

Rod's 2 best seasons (2000 & 2001)

- 113 rec 1343 yds 11.9 avg 65 long 11 tds (14 rec over 20yds)
- 100 rec 1602 yds 16.0 avg 49 long 8 tds (30 rec over 20 yds)

Randy's 2 best seasons (2002 & 2003)

- 111 rec 1632 yds 14.7 avg 72 long 17 tds (27 rec over 20 yds)
- 106 rec 1347 yds 12.7 avg 60 long 7 tds (19 rec over 20 yds)

Remember that in 2000 Eddie Mac also had 100+ receptions, which took some away from Rod, and Mike Anderson ran for 1487 yds. Bottom line is that in their 2 peak years, they were very comparable statistically.

I don't count catches because catches can be overrated.

Rod Smith in 10 years caught 1200 yards or more only 3 times.

Moss in 7 yrs. has only caught under 1200 yards once.

Smith has only caught double digit TD's twice in 10 yrs.

Moss has only caught less the 10 once.

Smith has never been above 12 TD's . Moss averages 13 TD's a year for his career.

Sorry but the stat's aren't very close.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Smith has never been above 12 TD's . Moss averages 13 TD's a year for his career.

And THAT is where the huge difference is. There's no comparison between Rod and Moss.

[Florida_Bronco]

And like I mentioned in the paragraph, Rod has always had alot of talent around him to share those catches and TD's with.

Also look at those catches over 20 yards, Rod and Randy were very close there. I think that's a fairly good indicator of big play ability.

[Rashid242]

And like I mentioned in the paragraph, Rod has always had alot of talent around him to share those catches and TD's with.

Also look at those catches over 20 yards, Rod and Randy were very close there. I think that's a fairly good indicator of big play ability.

He played with Cris Carter & Robert Smith for 4 out 7 yrs.


In 126 games Rod Smith had 124 catches of 20 yards or more.

In 107 games Moss has 142 catches of 20 yards or more.

In all of the years Cris Carter played with Moss except one both had over 1000 yards & double digit TD's.

In 2 of the years Robert Smith led the NFC in rushing.

[TheNextStep]

Rod also had to compete for those touchdowns with Eddie Mac, Shannon Sharpe and the Broncos great running game...but to be fair let's throw this out there...

Rod's 2 best seasons (2000 & 2001)

- 113 rec 1343 yds 11.9 avg 65 long 11 tds (14 rec over 20yds)
- 100 rec 1602 yds 16.0 avg 49 long 8 tds (30 rec over 20 yds)

Randy's 2 best seasons (2002 & 2003)

- 111 rec 1632 yds 14.7 avg 72 long 17 tds (27 rec over 20 yds)
- 106 rec 1347 yds 12.7 avg 60 long 7 tds (19 rec over 20 yds)

Remember that in 2000 Eddie Mac also had 100+ receptions, which took some away from Rod, and Mike Anderson ran for 1487 yds. Bottom line is that in their 2 peak years, they were very comparable statistically.

No disrespect, but if you cherry-pick statistics, you can make whatever bullsh*t argument you want look nice.

Reminds me of a line from "Mister Baseball" where they tell Tom Selleck he's being traded and he says, "I lead this club in 9th inning doubles in the month of August!"

[TheNextStep]

Cmon man 2 players are not going to spring you from a 5 win team to an 11 win team. Broncos will win at oakland and mile high that is a promise.

Trevor crush that puss collins.

I never said that we were an 11 win team, and the Raiders have added far more than just two players.

As for your prediction of a sweep, it rings kind of hollow this time of year. It's freakin' July! I predict that Oakland will go 19-0 and start a ten year reign of dominance at about this time of year. Why? Because the freakin' rosters aren't even set yet so nobody knows sh*t about what to really expect from these teams.

That aside, you do realize that Mike Shanahan's death grip on this series ended a while back, right? In the last 4 years, we've each swept once and split twice, giving us a four year total of 4 wins, 4 losses for either team.

[Florida_Bronco]

No disrespect, but if you cherry-pick statistics, you can make whatever bullsh*t argument you want look nice.

Reminds me of a line from "Mister Baseball" where they tell Tom Selleck he's being traded and he says, "I lead this club in 9th inning doubles in the month of August!"

I wouldn't go that far. My point wasn't that Rod was the better of the 2 (even though I still say he's the better asset to his team) but that at similar points in their careers, Smith was producing almost as well as Moss.

[Rashid242]

I wouldn't go that far. My point wasn't that Rod was the better of the 2 (even though I still say he's the better asset to his team) but that at similar points in their careers, Smith was producing almost as well as Moss.

As good as Rod Smith has been he really still hasn't despite both playing with similar quality counterparts.

[Atlas]

As good as Rod Smith has been he really still hasn't despite both playing with similar quality counterparts.

Moss is the better player and has the better stats BUT Denver's system revolves around the running game and the TE(Sharpe) a lot more than Minnesota's. Rod has a had a wonderful career and he is a great leader and blocker. Plus he also returns punts and has lined up at RB several times. The total package of what Rod is and what Moss is maybe Rod helps a team win more than Moss. Because of his unselfisness and willingness to do everything it takes to win. The same can't be said for Moss.

[Rocket 7]

Rod Smith never takes a play off. Randy Moss will if he wants too

[RaiderH8r]

Rod Smith never takes a play off. Randy Moss will if he wants too
Randy Moss has never met a play he couldn't take off. His sauce....weak.

[Florida_Bronco]

Moss is the better player and has the better stats BUT Denver's system revolves around the running game and the TE(Sharpe) a lot more than Minnesota's. Rod has a had a wonderful career and he is a great leader and blocker. Plus he also returns punts and has lined up at RB several times. The total package of what Rod is and what Moss is maybe Rod helps a team win more than Moss. Because of his unselfisness and willingness to do everything it takes to win. The same can't be said for Moss.

Exactly :Broncos:

[TheNextStep]

Randy Moss has never met a play he couldn't take off. His sauce....weak.

Well, he's met at least 90 that he didn't take off...

[RaiderH8r]

Well, he's met at least 90 that he didn't take off...
7 years in the league...90 plays, yeah that sounds about right. :thumbs: Maybe the Fade should give him performance bonuses for plays where he takes more than 3 steps off the line, makes a block, or stays on the field for the entire half. I bet he'd find a way to get involved when the ball's not coming his way then.

[Rashid242]

7 years in the league...90 plays, yeah that sounds about right. :thumbs: Maybe the Fade should give him performance bonuses for plays where he takes more than 3 steps off the line, makes a block, or stays on the field for the entire half. I bet he'd find a way to get involved when the ball's not coming his way then.

induction speech in Canton.

[Rashid242]

Moss is the better player and has the better stats BUT Denver's system revolves around the running game and the TE(Sharpe) a lot more than Minnesota's. Rod has a had a wonderful career and he is a great leader and blocker. Plus he also returns punts and has lined up at RB several times. The total package of what Rod is and what Moss is maybe Rod helps a team win more than Moss. Because of his unselfisness and willingness to do everything it takes to win. The same can't be said for Moss.

which apparently as good as Rod Smith was he wasn't.

Teams focused on stopping the running game which left Rod Smith in a lot more man then Moss ever saw.

After his rookie season Moss was the focal point of defenses to this day.

[wabbit]

It bends the mind to think you folks have spent 4 or 5 pages debating the Moss-Smith virtues.

Yikes.

You'll be getting quite a bit of football news as the rookies come on board.

I asked how close the team was to signing it's draft group & was told 'very'...'in all but one case'...I have no idea who the one problem child may be, but I could guess.

At any rate, we should see all these kids come into the fold fairly quickly.

[Disco Man]

Like I said on the 1st page as long as Al Davis is alive the Raiders are no threat, the game has long passed him off as a joke.

[Kaylore]

It bends the mind to think you folks have spent 4 or 5 pages debating the Moss-Smith virtues.

Yikes.

You'll be getting quite a bit of football news as the rookies come on board.

I asked how close the team was to signing it's draft group & was told 'very'...'in all but one case'...I have no idea who the one problem child may be, but I could guess.

At any rate, we should see all these kids come into the fold fairly quickly.
Paymah.

[Florida_Bronco]

Like I said on the 1st page as long as Al Davis is alive the Raiders are no threat, the game has long passed him off as a joke.

I just wanna see the domination of the Raiders continue. How funny would that be if we swept them this year Nnyah!