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GSRelyea
06-21-2005, 06:21 AM
Blazers talking trade with three teams By Chad Ford
ESPN Insider
Archive

• Check out Chad Ford's blog for the latest on who's in and who's out of the NBA draft.


It's crunch time. Just eight days until the NBA draft and everything still is in utter commotion.

Picks two through seven are for sale. Workouts are going full steam. The deadline for underclassmen to withdraw from the draft is Tuesday.

Check back with Insider Tuesday for a full breakdown of who's in and who's out of the 2005 NBA draft. And on Wednesday, look for our latest mock draft.

Here's the latest on what's going on:


Blazers heating up the phone lines
Bobcats GM Bernie Bickerstaff has called the Blazers' No. 3 pick the key pick in the draft.

Why? Because the Blazers are more than willing to trade it and a number of teams, including the Lakers, Bobcats and Jazz, are willing to offer a lot to get their hands on it.

With Phil Jackson now running the show in Los Angeles, you can expect the Lakers to be pretty active over the next few weeks, retooling the team to Jackson's liking.

That's led to whispers that the Lakers are talking to the Blazers about a deal that would give them the No. 3 pick in the draft and Ruben Patterson for Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins and the No. 10. There's also talk that the Lakers have been trying to resurrect talks with the Jazz for Carlos Boozer.

If the Lakers do move up in the draft, who are they targeting?

For months GM Mitch Kupchak has been hot on the trail of high school phenom Gerald Green. Green worked out for the Lakers and Jackson on Thursday. The workout raised more than a few eyebrows because Green isn't expected to slip past the Raptors (who are also very high on him) at No. 7.

Meanwhile, Green and the Blazers continue to fight over his refusal to work out for the team in a group setting. Factor in that Portland just brought in another high school two-guard, Martell Webster, for a workout, and the dots are there, ready for someone to connect. Webster wouldn't be drafted as high as No. 3, but he would be draftable as the 10th overall pick.

However, don't hold your breath just yet, Laker fans. This is just one of a number of different trade scenarios the Blazers apparently are working on. The ideal trade is to convince the Bobcats to swap Nos. 5 and 13 for No. 3 – a deal that GM Bernie Bickerstaff admits is on the table but says he isn't interested in.

The Blazers are also talking to the Jazz about a deal that would swap No. 3 for the No. 6 and No. 27 picks. That deal could also include some players. Sources claim that Gordan Giricek and Kirk Snyder could be sent to Portland with Ruben Patterson and the draft rights to Russian 2-guard Sergei Monia headed back to the Jazz. The Jazz, who desperately need a point guard, would select Chris Paul or Deron Williams with the No. 3 pick.

If the Lakers stay at No. 10, folks in the camp of high school big man Andrew Bynum are suggesting, pretty loudly, that the Lakers are leaning toward drafting him.



Bucks work out Williams
Bucks GM Larry Harris continues to assert that he still hasn't decided whether the Bucks will select Andrew Bogut or Marvin Williams with the No. 1 pick.

While most in the league have assumed the Bucks will eventually choose Bogut over Williams, Harris gave his first real hint Sunday that Williams is truly in the running for the pick.

Williams worked out with the Bucks on Sunday, and Harris and head coach Terry Porter came away raving about his post skills.

"Early on, I see him more as a power forward and a guy who can play some three [small forward] as well," Harris told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel after the workout. "His post-up game is a lot further along than people have seen.

"Eventually, he's going to grow some more, so he's going to get bigger. He has the bulk to him to play the four, and it's going to be a very easy transition for him. He's definitely strong and solid in the post."

Those statements are significant because on lottery night, when the Bucks got the top pick, Harris told Insider that what his team really needs is a power forward. Joe Smith plays the bulk of Milwaukee's minutes at power forward, with mixed results. Desmond Mason plays small forward, and a combination of Dan Gadzuric and Zaza Pachulia plays center.

It's been assumed that Bogut is the pick because he's a big upgrade over Gadzuric and Pachulia in the middle, while Williams would duplicate a position played well by Mason. However, if the Bucks really believe that he'll be a power forward, Williams might have a much better chance at being the No. 1 pick than people are giving him.

Bogut is scheduled to work out for the Bucks today.



Magic focusing on May
In Insider's previous two mock drafts, we've had the Magic taking Webster with the 11th pick in the draft. Expect that to change when we release our third mock draft Wednesday.

Sources in Orlando told Insider this past weekend that if North Carolina power forward Sean May is on the board when the Magic draft, they're leaning strongly toward taking him. Why would the Magic draft May when they took Dwight Howard at the same position last year?

"I think they're such different players that you play them together on the front line," the Magic source told Insider. "Howard has the size, athleticism and defense and May has the bulk and skills scoring in the low post. [Tony] Battie and [[Kelvin] Cato are role players. I think those two guys would fit great together."

We'll see. This is the time of year when some NBA teams start to throw out misleading information to mess with other teams drafting below them. It could be a smokescreen to convince a team drafting a few picks behind the Magic to give up something in a trade to get May.



Vazquez working out on Sunday
Spanish stud Fran Vazquez is coming to New York on Friday and has scheduled a general NBA workout on Sunday and an NBA physical on Monday.

Vazquez is widely regarded as the top international player in the draft and a likely top-10 pick. His team recently was ousted from the playoffs, where Vazquez put up solid numbers of 12.1 ppg and 7.8 rpg.

Vazquez was scheduled to come over and do a handful of individual workouts with the Hornets, Jazz, Raptors and Bobcats; however, he's opted instead to do just one group workout. That news didn't please everyone. According to one team that was scheduled to work him out, the news isn't good.

"He was seriously in the mix," the GM told Insider. "I'm not sure that we'd still consider him without a private workout."

Marc Cornstein, Vazquez's agent, defends the decision. "He had a tremendous year in Spain," Cornstein told Insider. "Virtually every team in the league has scouted him extensively. I don't know how big of an issue it really is."



Draft Cards
• Among the top players, it sounds like the following early-entry guys are staying in the draft: Martynas Andriuskevicius, Jarrett Jack, Andrew Bynum, Yaroslav Korolev, Ersan Ilyasova, Roko Ukic, Johan Petro, Linas Kleiza, Louis Williams, C.J. Miles, Dwayne Jones, Von Wafer, Carl Krauser, Anthony Roberson, Drago Pasalic and Deji Akindele.

Meanwhile, it sounds like these early-entry guys are withdrawing: Tiago Splitter, Nemanja Aleksandrov, Marko Tomas, Peja Samardziski, Torin Francis, James White, Olu Famitimi, Juan Jose Barea, Ivan Chiriaev, Paulius Jankunas, Miguel Marriaga, Pops Mensah-Bonsu and Dusan Sakota.

Among those still on the fence: Ike Diogu, Randolph Morris, Rudy Fernandez, Mile Ilic, Kosta Perovic, Marko Lekic, Marcin Gortat, Steven Smith, Brandon Rush and Amir Johnson.

• Croatian point guard Roko Ukic must have made quite an impression at the Reebok Eurocamp. After dominating in competition there, Ukic flew to the United States and worked out for the Raptors on Friday and the Celtics on Saturday. Raptors GM Rob Babcock and Celtics vice president Danny Ainge were both in Treviso at the camp and were impressed. They'll seriously consider him with the 16th and 18th picks, respectively.

• Slovenian big man Uros Slokar has surprised a number of teams with strong workouts. Sources with the Pistons, Clippers and Sonics all claim that he was impressive when they had him in.

"The report that we had on him from Europe was that he was a little on the soft side," one scout told Insider. "He actually looks much tougher than we expected. He could be an interesting second-round pick for someone."

Slokar has been a well-regarded prospect for years but never developed for Benetton. This year, with Andrea Bargnani taking his playing time, Slokar was loaned to a smaller team in Italy and began to put up impressive numbers.

• Arizona's Channing Frye refused to work out with the Charlotte Bobcats, fueling the fire that the Knicks have given him a promise at No. 8.

• There are a couple of great workouts scheduled on Monday to keep an eye on:

The Bobcats have Deron Williams, Rashad McCants, Raymond Felton, Julius Hodge and Monta Ellis coming in. Look for Williams to work out individually while the other four all go at it. Williams has been refusing to work out against anyone other than Chris Paul.

The Nets also have a sweet big man workout planned with Hakim Warrick, Charlie Villanueva and Wayne Simien all scheduled. Whoever performs well there could be the No. 15 selection in the draft.

Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.

Clockwork Orange
06-21-2005, 06:36 AM
I read this morning that Jarrett Jack is withdrawing from the draft. Too bad, I wouldn't have minded the Nuggets taking a long look at him.

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 06:47 AM
God I cannot wait for the age limit to be set, even if it will only be 19 and not 20 yeears old.

Nuggets4
06-21-2005, 06:58 AM
The fact that Linas Kleiza is staying in the draft scares the hell out of me because the Nugs are reportedly really high on him. Not to mention he's a teammate of the owner's son.

-Slap-
06-21-2005, 09:46 AM
That's led to whispers that the Lakers are talking to the Blazers about a deal that would give them the No. 3 pick in the draft and Ruben Patterson for Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins and the No. 10. There's also talk that the Lakers have been trying to resurrect talks with the Jazz for Carlos Boozer.

If the Lakers do move up in the draft, who are they targeting?

For months GM Mitch Kupchak has been hot on the trail of high school phenom Gerald Green. Green worked out for the Lakers and Jackson on Thursday. The workout raised more than a few eyebrows because Green isn't expected to slip past the Raptors (who are also very high on him) at No. 7.

Rapin' Ruben Patterson and a high school kid. That will get the next Phil Jax era off to a rousing start.

:laugh:

FADERPROOF
06-21-2005, 10:17 AM
God I cannot wait for the age limit to be set, even if it will only be 19 and not 20 yeears old.

Same here, is any high schooler coming out next year besides Gerland Green?

Hopefully they get it set this year, Greg Oden is a huge prospect next year and I'd like to see what he can do in the college game before going to the NBA.

Nuggets4
06-21-2005, 01:00 PM
Same here, is any high schooler coming out next year besides Gerland Green?

Hopefully they get it set this year, Greg Oden is a huge prospect next year and I'd like to see what he can do in the college game before going to the NBA.

There are a few. Monta Ellis is a possible late first rounder. Webster (can't remember his first name) is a potential top 10. There's a big man who's name I can't remember either who's a possible late first rounder.

As for Oden, you just want him to go to college because he's been reportedly high on OSU.

FADERPROOF
06-21-2005, 01:07 PM
As for Oden, you just want him to go to college because he's been reportedly high on OSU.

Damn, Ive been scooped out.

But yes, Oden and teammate Conley are going in a package deal to either Ohio State or Wake Forest(maybe MSU or Indiana but Conley isn't high on those two schools).

The new CBA has a minimum 19 year old age limit starting June 30th so it looks as if both have to attend college, and Ohio State would be the ideal place for that. :)

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 01:45 PM
Will the new CBA affect this year's draft?

I mean, have these kids who are coming out already gotten agents, etc. We saw how that worked in college football, with kids trying to go back...

FADERPROOF
06-21-2005, 01:52 PM
Will the new CBA affect this year's draft?

I mean, have these kids who are coming out already gotten agents, etc. We saw how that worked in college football, with kids trying to go back...

The CBA will take place starting July 1st, so next NBA season will be under the the new CBA along with the age limit.

Players this year in high school who have declared are free from this new rule on age limit, next year the high schoolers will have to attend at least 1 year of college.

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 01:54 PM
Ah, good deal.

bendog
06-21-2005, 01:59 PM
What's the logic of freezing out the 18 year olds? I saw a piece on HBO Costas, and it seemed most of the kids make it, and even those who don't get their payday, and aside from Kobe they aren't "bad guys."

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 02:08 PM
What's the logic of freezing out the 18 year olds? I saw a piece on HBO Costas, and it seemed most of the kids make it, and even those who don't get their payday, and aside from Kobe they aren't "bad guys."

I think that's incorrect. A lot of kids come out of high school, never see the court, and are never heard from again. They would be benefit from a year in college to help their game, IMO.

And not only that, but Kobe sucked his first year. Jermaine O'Neal sat the bench his first couple years. Garnet wasn't the MVP until, like, his 8th year.

Besides LeBron, who came right out and dominated, most of these high schoolers could really benefit from taking a year to improve their games.

1 interesting note, which I just heard on Around The Horn, is that for American players, the age requirement is 19, and for Europeans/foreigners, the age requirement is 18.

Tombstone RJ
06-21-2005, 05:46 PM
Where do the Nugz draft and who are they interested in?

Clockwork Orange
06-21-2005, 05:48 PM
Where do the Nugz draft and who are they interested in?

20th & 22nd and anyone who can shoot from beyond 18 feet.

Hercules Rockefeller
06-21-2005, 05:51 PM
1 interesting note, which I just heard on Around The Horn, is that for American players, the age requirement is 19, and for Europeans/foreigners, the age requirement is 18.

The Euros are also already professionals, while American kids are just graduating from high school.

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 06:03 PM
The Euros are also already professionals, while American kids are just graduating from high school.

Oh I totally agree, I'm not bashing the move... Just thought it was interesting that they seperated it like that. I totally never thought of that aspect of it when they were talking about an age requirement.

Nuggets4
06-21-2005, 06:42 PM
1 interesting note, which I just heard on Around The Horn, is that for American players, the age requirement is 19, and for Europeans/foreigners, the age requirement is 18.

I heard that too, but now I'm reading this from Chad Ford.

The players and owners agreed to a compromise that sets the age minimum at 19, and one year removed from high school for American players. International and American players must turn 19 during the calendar year they are declaring for the draft. Players who spend a year in prep school would be eligible for the draft as long as they are 19.

More interesting notes from Ford:

Stern wanted to keep NBA GMs and scouts out of high school gyms and it appears he will get his wish. Stern implied on Tuesday that there would be a directive from the league banning NBA GMs and scouts from scouting high school games.

Also, you can expect to see more players skip college and go directly to the NBDL, where they'll get a one-year paid audition for NBA scouts before they are draft eligible.

Perhaps the most significant development in the new CBA will be the creation of a true NBA minor league via the NBDL. Both sides were interested in making this happen and it was never a serious impediment to the bargaining process.

*snip*

• Players can be sent down to the NBDL for only the first two years of their career. Veterans cannot be assigned to an NBDL team.

*snip*
Now that teams have the option of drafting players and developing them in the minor leagues, look for more teams to reach, starting in this year's draft.

Stern said on Tuesday that rookie signings and summer leagues can begin on July 1. However, the free agency period will be moved back slightly from July 15 to July 22 to allow time for the agreement to be fully drafted. Teams can negotiate with free agents from July 1 through July 21, but won't be allowed to sign them until July 22.

Under current rules, teams have 15 days to match any offer sheet on a player they have restricted free agency rights to. This rule often drags out the free agency process for both teams and players.

Granik said in the new agreement the period that teams have to match will be shortened to seven days. That should have the effect of encouraging more teams to extend offer sheets to restricted free agents.

The new agreement creates an exception for second-round picks. Teams can now match offers to second-round picks as long as the team still owns its mid-level exception. To make this rule work, the new agreement says that any team signing a second rounder to an offer sheet cannot offer more than the mid-level amount in the first year of the contract. However, after the first season of the contract, the player's salary can jump to the maximum allowable for a player with three or more years in the league.

So, to keep Arenas as an example, the Wizards would have been forced to offer Arenas $4.9 million in his first year. As long as the Warriors hadn't already spent their mid-level exception, they could have matched the Wizards offer and kept him under contract.

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 06:51 PM
Wow Nuggets4, that all sounds awesome. Even more so since Albuquerque is getting an NBDL team, which I can catch on winter break.

And shortening the matching deal to 7 days is sweet too.

MadCity
06-21-2005, 07:34 PM
Question: Does anybody actually see Andrew Bogut being a star in the league? For some reason, I have a feeling we're about to see the second coming of Luc Longley.

Clockwork Orange
06-21-2005, 07:39 PM
I also just saw on FSRM that another of the changes is that active rosters will be expanded from 12 to 14.

Damn. That means that the Suns will have 7 designated towel wavers instead of 5. ;)

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 07:48 PM
Luc Longley wasn't bad. If you said Shawn Bradley, then I'd be concerned. Longley was a good role player, IMO.

I don't know if Bogut will be a dominant center, like a Shaq, Ewing, etc... But, could he be a decent role player, like a Longley, helping out other players? I think he probably could be.

Nuggets4
06-21-2005, 08:12 PM
Question: Does anybody actually see Andrew Bogut being a star in the league? For some reason, I have a feeling we're about to see the second coming of Luc Longley.

He's gonna make Longley look like Shaq. I wasn't high on Bogut during the season and hearing how he TANKED the athleticism drills in Chicago just cements my belief.

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 08:18 PM
He's gonna make Longley look like Shaq. I wasn't high on Bogut during the season and hearing how he TANKED the athleticism drills in Chicago just cements my belief.

Ooooh he did? Details! I haven't heard anything on the camps, except the fact that the NBA invited New Mexico Lobo Danny Granger to the draft @ MSG, which has everybody talking here because that pretty much guarantees he's going high in the 1st.

epicSocialism4tw
06-21-2005, 09:12 PM
Question: Does anybody actually see Andrew Bogut being a star in the league? For some reason, I have a feeling we're about to see the second coming of Luc Longley.

Bogut is nothing like Longley. Longley was a good rebounder and a big body to move people around down low.

Someone on this thread mentioned that they saw that Bogut 'tanked' 'athleticism ' drills. The guy is 7 feet tall. Nowitzki is the only 7 footer that can move like a guard. Bogut is intelligent, has good big man footwork, is a great post passer, has a good jump shot,and has a soft touch by the basket. That sounds pretty good to me. It doesn't sound like Longley, Duncan, Shaq, or anyone else. More like Brad Miller and Vlade Divac rolled into one with a little bit of Kareem by the rim. If he pans out, he will be a major player for years.

Nuggets4
06-21-2005, 09:45 PM
Ooooh he did? Details! I haven't heard anything on the camps, except the fact that the NBA invited New Mexico Lobo Danny Granger to the draft @ MSG, which has everybody talking here because that pretty much guarantees he's going high in the 1st.

Here's Chad Ford's article. When you're a big stiff (or Euro) and Ford is saying you did poorly, you're in trouble.

There are three ways to help your draft stock at the Chicago predraft camp.

First, you can actually play well in the event, like Luther Head and David Lee did, and convince scouts that you're first-round material.

Second, you can stand against a wall, spread your arms out and possibly measure longer/bigger than team originally thought you were. Guys like Chris Paul and Ike Diogu did that this year.

Finally, you can go through the NBA draft combine and prove to scouts that you're quicker, stronger, or can jump higher than your original scouting report.

Insider exclusively obtained a list of the Chicago pre-draft camp combine results on Wednesday. The combine measures four key areas: strength (bench press repetitions of 185 pounds), vertical jump, lane agility (how fast a player moves laterally around the key), and speed (¾-court sprint). Then the league adds those up and gives an athletic ranking to each player in the draft.

The overall winner this year was Oklahoma State's Joey Graham, who blew away the competition. Second was Georgia Tech's Will Bynum. Other top players with good scores included Rashad McCants (3rd overall), Luther Head (6th), David Lee (11th), Marvin Williams (15th), Chris Paul (16th) and Raymond Felton (18th).

There was one major surprise in the top 20 -- Illinois point guard Deron Williams finished 10th, ahead of both Paul and Felton. Part of that had to do with strength; Williams bench pressed 185 pounds 15 times, which is really great for a point guard. However, that wasn't the full story.

There have been major questions about Williams' lateral quickness, but he actually tested quicker than Paul in the lane agility drill and finished .03 seconds behind Paul in the sprint. Williams has lost about 15 pounds and is down to 7½ percent body fat, which obviously has helped his athleticism.

The bottom end of the spectrum included mostly international players and lumbering big men. Georgia Tech center Luke Schensher finished at the bottom of the list (75th). Ersan Ilyasova (74th) and Martynas Andriuskevicius (73rd) also tested poorly.

The shock on the low end was high school star Monta Ellis, who finished 70th. His strength, vertical jump and lateral quickness were all on the low end of the scale. That could be devastating to his draft chances.

Other disappointments included Andrew Bogut (61st), Martell Webster (60th), Rudy Fernandez (57th), Antoine Wright (55th), Jarrett Jack (54th) and Francisco Garcia (51st).

Luther Head ranked as the most athletic point guard in camp. Will Bynum took the award for the 2-guards. Joey Graham won for 3s, David Lee for 4s and Marcin Gortat for centers.

Ellis was the worst ranked guard in camp at either position. Ilyasova finished last among small forwards while Taylor Coppenrath was last for power forwards and Luke Schenscher finished at the bottom of the heap for centers.

On the individual test front, Will Bynum recorded the highest one-step vertical jump at 40½ inches. Gerald Green and Ronnie Price tied for second at 39 inches, followed by Luther Head at 38½. Chris Paul and Hakim Warrick rounded out the top-five, each launching a 38-inch leap.

Luke Schensher recorded the worst vertical jump, at 26½ inches. He was followed by Taylor Coppenrath and Jason Klotz (27 inches) and Martynas Andriuskevicius and Wayne Simien (27½ inches).

Joey Graham won the strength test, bench pressing 185 pounds an impressive 26 times. Ike Diogu finished second with 21 reps, followed by Chuck Hayes with 20. Channing Frye helped himself shed the soft label a bit by hoisting the bar 19 times. Eric Williams, Marcin Gortat and David Simon all finished tied for fifth with 18 reps.

As happens every year, several top players were unable or barely able to do this drill. Monta Ellis, Rudy Fernandez, Martynas Andriuskevicius, Brandon Rush and Daryl Dorsey got a zero for the drill. Luke Schensher and Travis Diener could only lift the bar once.

In the lane agility drill, Michigan State's Alan Anderson recorded the fastest time at 10.32 seconds. Rashad McCants was second at 10.39. John Lucas ranked third, Rudy Fernandez fourth and Raymond Felton fifth.

Jason Klotz, Ellis Myles and Deji Akindele finished at the bottom of the heap. Monta Ellis and Andrew Bogut also recorded terrible times of above 12 seconds.

In the ¾-court sprint, Will Bynum recorded the fastest time at 3 seconds. Joey Graham, Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants and John Lucas were also in the top five. Marvin Williams and Julius Hodge finished in the top 10.

Jason Klotz earns the awarded as the slowest guy in camp with a 3.68 seconds time. Ersan Ilyasova, Andrew Bogut, D'or Fischer and Torin Francis rounded out the five slowest guys in camp.

Here's a look at how 30 of the top draft prospects performed in each event. Note that several top prospects, including Fran Vazquez, Johan Petro, Nate Robinson, Ryan Gomes, Brandon Bass, Matt Walsh and Linas Kleiza, did not participate in the testing.

So who was helped and hurt by the testing?

WINNERS

Deron Williams -- Scouts have been questioning his quickness and athleticism all year. Now that he's lost some of that body fat, that no longer seems to be an issue. He's not as fast as Raymond Felton and doesn't jump as high as Chris Paul, but he's clearly in the same league athletically.

Joey Graham -- It doesn't come as a huge surprise that Graham came out on top. If you've seen him play much, you know he's an unbelievable athlete. Still, finishing on top of the heap should guarantee he gets selected in the lottery.

Will Bynum -- He was the last guy invited to Chicago and played extremely well, especially on the defensive end. A few scouts believe he might be a better prospect than Nate Robinson (the guy who tested as the top athlete in Chicago last year). I doubt he gets selected ahead of Nate, but he's definitely in the second-round mix now.

Rashad McCants -- There are still questions about his attitude, but it's rare to find such a great shooter who can also test off the charts athletically (just look at Martell Webster and Antoine Wright). Someone's going to ignore the baggage and take him in the late lottery to mid-first round.

Channing Frye -- He's stronger and more athletic than scouts have given him credit. The 19 reps on the bench press will turn a lot of heads.

David Lee -- Athletically, he tested as the top power forward in the draft. His lane agility scores are what really stand out. Lee has very quick feet, which will really help him defensively in the pros. Combine that with his strong play in Chicago and Lee seems like he's another step closer to securing a spot in the first round.

Marcin Gortat -- He had just a so-so camp, but he tested out as the most athletic center in the draft. He could be off the board in the first 10 picks of the second round if he decides to stay in the draft.

Sean May -- His numbers don't jump out at you, but he showed a better vertical jump and more agility than his main competition: Ike Diogu, Wayne Simien and Chris Taft. Maybe that will balance out the fact that he measured smaller than all of them.

LOSERS

Andrew Bogut -- He's been trying to dispel the "great white stiff" myth for the past few weeks. This doesn't help. While his vertical leap is actually above average for a guy his size, his lateral quickness and sprinting speed were just awful. That will hurt him defensively.

Wayne Simien -- Simien finished well below the other top big men in almost every area. Especially shocking is his lack of explosion jumping off one foot. His one-step vertical was only a half inch more than his standing vertical. That was, by far, the worst in the camp.

Antoine Wright -- Scouts have been warning that Wright looks more athletic than he actually is. At the combine, he was significantly below Francisco Garcia, a guy almost every scout in the league has knocked for his lack of athleticism. Had he not benched an impressive 12 reps, he would have landed close to the bottom. That's going to come back to haunt Wright.

Jarrett Jack -- He has great size and toughness, but athletically, he tested well behind most of the point guards in this draft. With Roko Ukic making a strong push, it could cause him to slip.

The High Schoolers -- Monta Ellis, Martell Webster and Brandon Rush all tested terribly. That's partly because of their age and partly because guys like Ellis and Rush might not have been training for these particular tests the way some players do.

We knew that Webster was just an average athlete but Ellis was a huge shock. For an undersized 2-guard to be successful in the League, he has to be long, quick and explosive. Ellis is none of the above. There's been talk that Minnesota is flirting with taking him at No. 14. It's pretty hard to justify that after seeing these numbers.

The Internationals -- They always struggle every year. With the exception of Gortat, they all were near the bottom of the heap. Most of them have never lifted weights before (which hurts their bench press numbers) and most are bigs lacking any real explosion or quickness.

Andrew Bogut:
Bench press: 13 reps
Vertical jump: 33½"
Lane agility: 12.06 sec.
3/4 court sprint: 3.51

And for you Rhyme, here's your boy Granger's numbers:

Danny Granger:
Bench press: 10 reps
Vertical jump: 34"
Lane agility: 10.84 sec.
3/4 court sprint: 3.34

Nuggets4
06-21-2005, 09:47 PM
Someone on this thread mentioned that they saw that Bogut 'tanked' 'athleticism ' drills. The guy is 7 feet tall. Nowitzki is the only 7 footer that can move like a guard. Bogut is intelligent, has good big man footwork, is a great post passer, has a good jump shot,and has a soft touch by the basket. That sounds pretty good to me. It doesn't sound like Longley, Duncan, Shaq, or anyone else. More like Brad Miller and Vlade Divac rolled into one with a little bit of Kareem by the rim. If he pans out, he will be a major player for years.

Do you defend all hte big stiffs in the league? Just curious because I've seen you support Bradley, Dampier and now Bogut lately. Bogut is intelligent and is a decent passer. But he's gonna get destroyed down low. He's 245 lbs.. He will get manhandled by all the centers in the league. You can't put him at the four, he's proven he's too slow for that.

And the fact that you compared him to "a little bit of Kareem" proves you must have never seen Bogut play. Or you've never seen Kareem play. One of the two.

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 09:53 PM
Interesting stuff about Bogut. The one time I saw him play in person, I wasn't impressed. That was in the MWC championship @ Pepsi against my boy DGranger and the Lobos... But to Bogut's defense, they doubled him all night and forced somebody else on Utah to beat them, which they couldn't do. So I don't know what to make of him just yet.

And thanks for posting the info on Granger.

yavoon
06-21-2005, 10:06 PM
I think that's incorrect. A lot of kids come out of high school, never see the court, and are never heard from again. They would be benefit from a year in college to help their game, IMO.

And not only that, but Kobe sucked his first year. Jermaine O'Neal sat the bench his first couple years. Garnet wasn't the MVP until, like, his 8th year.

Besides LeBron, who came right out and dominated, most of these high schoolers could really benefit from taking a year to improve their games.

1 interesting note, which I just heard on Around The Horn, is that for American players, the age requirement is 19, and for Europeans/foreigners, the age requirement is 18.

its all anti american, but hey if the fans convince themselves that forcing ppl into college will somehow make them better passers. go for it.

Nuggets4
06-21-2005, 10:07 PM
I saw him play a few times on TV. He has good court vision, I will give him that, but he's going against guys smaller than him. He's not gonna have that in the pros. He looked lost on D in college, I'm scared for what's gonna happen in the pros.

As a Duke fan, I hate saying this, but Marvin Williams is CLEARLY the best player in the draft. I can't believe this is even being debated.

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 10:09 PM
Un-American how?

How is requiring that kids get better at the game Un-American?

Employers all across the nation have requirements for what they want prospective employees to know/be able to to/etc.

yavoon
06-21-2005, 10:16 PM
Un-American how?

How is requiring that kids get better at the game Un-American?

Employers all across the nation have requirements for what they want prospective employees to know/be able to to/etc.

denying an adult money and opportunity based upon what? his age? thats unamerican.

if u want to deny him based on ability or talent or something REAL then fine. anything else is consumerist hegemony.

oh and for ur employers thing. I'm actually more or less fine w/ say the lakers saying they wont draft anyone under 19. or say the lakers, blazers and clippers, but having it be written into law that no1 under 19 is legally capable of playing proffesional basketball is IMO not right

RhymesayersDU
06-21-2005, 10:23 PM
denying an adult money and opportunity based upon what? his age? thats unamerican.

if u want to deny him based on ability or talent or something REAL then fine. anything else is consumerist hegemony.

oh and for ur employers thing. I'm actually more or less fine w/ say the lakers saying they wont draft anyone under 19. or say the lakers, blazers and clippers, but having it be written into law that no1 under 19 is legally capable of playing proffesional basketball is IMO not right

Fair enough, on that point. Perhaps it should be a team by team decision. But at some point, IMO, the NBA needed to protect these teams from themselves.

These teams get into young kids' ears, tell them they can make the money right now, and end up drafting on potential, which isn't always a bad thing, but in many cases, it is. The kids don't play, end up out of the league, and with what? No education, and little money.

Plus, I think the NBA is allowed to determine what they want their product to be, just like any other business. If the NBA doesn't want their product to be filled with kids who they feel aren't ready, I believe they are allowed to make that decision.

yavoon
06-21-2005, 10:59 PM
Fair enough, on that point. Perhaps it should be a team by team decision. But at some point, IMO, the NBA needed to protect these teams from themselves.

These teams get into young kids' ears, tell them they can make the money right now, and end up drafting on potential, which isn't always a bad thing, but in many cases, it is. The kids don't play, end up out of the league, and with what? No education, and little money.

Plus, I think the NBA is allowed to determine what they want their product to be, just like any other business. If the NBA doesn't want their product to be filled with kids who they feel aren't ready, I believe they are allowed to make that decision.

it will probably help the nba earn more money, free college exposure for their future superstars, free talent development system, I mean lets face it the ppl who DON'T get paid in college basketball are the athletes; everyone else gets a piece of the pie. and the nba is given an exemption by the federal gov't, its more like an agreed upon thing rather than capitalism merely working itself out.

oh and companies can't discriminate on anything they want.