Pastajelly disses Browncos, praises Clowns

[fontaine]

Seems like the Browncos were malcontents and stragglers according to this guy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1896180

Chemistry, character heavily considered by BrownsBy Len PasquarelliESPN.com
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BEREA, Ohio – The new face of the Cleveland Browns comes complete with a track record of success, a Super Bowl pedigree, an unflagging work ethic, leadership skills and an impeccable reputation.

Many of the new faces of the recently bedraggled Browns, and there are plenty of them, also sport those kinds of credentials. And it's not just happenstance that, in surveying the new-look Browns at a minicamp session this week, one is drawn more now to the players' résumés than to their rap sheets.

"Oh, definitely, the plan of the people upstairs was definitely to [alter] the culture around here," acknowledged cornerback Gary Baxter, arguably the highest-profile veteran free agent signed in what has been an offseason of a well-orchestrated makeover by first-year general manager Phil Savage and rookie head coach Romeo Crennel. "The turnover around here isn't by accident. They had a certain model in mind when they started making changes, and I think at the top of the list [were] things like structure, chemistry, character, attitude."

Not to diminish the football skills of the several newcomers to a franchise that remains a passion for the hearty Rust Belt fans here, but it's obvious some veterans were added not only for the difference they might make on the field but also for the presence they will provide in the locker room.

“ When we started to [reshape] this team, we knew the kind of player we wanted. Winners. Quality people. Leaders. Now, don't get me wrong, they had some of that here. But with the guys we brought in, we're hoping some of what they've got rubs off on people, mixes in well and then, boom, you've got something.�
—Coach Romeo Crennel

It isn't as if the Cleveland locker room was totally devoid of solid players who were also solid people. No one can question, for instance, the significance of holdover veterans such as right offensive tackle Ryan Tucker, cornerback Daylon McCutcheon, linebacker Brant Boyer and defensive end Orpheus Roye.

There weren't enough of those players, though, to go around. But with the offseason roster refashioning, it appears the Browns' brain trust has infused the team with a significant character upgrade.

When Savage suggested on Tuesday that the fresh coat applied to the Browns was still at the finger-painting stage, he was being a tad too modest. It has been more like a paint-by-numbers exercise, taking the proven route and avoiding risks, and moving deliberately through the palette. And if Cleveland is not yet a masterpiece, the portrait of the Browns seems a much brighter one now.

This remains a relatively young team. Of the 96 players listed on the roster on Tuesday, there are only 16 nonkickers with more than four years of NFL seniority. And not too surprisingly, half of that group is comprised of players acquired this offseason, including five who have Super Bowl rings stashed in their safe-deposit boxes.

When the Browns released starting left offensive tackle Ross Verba last week after he reiterated that he would not participate in any on-field activities until his contract was upgraded, it raised to 20 the number of players who started at least one game in 2004 but have been jettisoned.

The malcontents, the malingerers and the miserable – regardless of their perch on the old Cleveland depth chart – have for the most part been weeded out. There has been plenty of addition by addition, for sure, but just as much addition by subtraction. Any time there is a new football regime at a franchise, when the guys making decisions have no loyalties to the players they inherited, such an overhaul is inevitable.

Still, in releasing one former first-round draft choice and trading another, in dispatching both starting safeties from a year ago, and by whacking the starting quarterback who only a year ago had been hailed as a savior, Savage and Crennel have hardly been indiscriminate. The charge here, defined more by deeds than words, is a simple one: Fit in or get out.

"When we started to [reshape] this team," said Crennel, who has five Super Bowl rings as an assistant coach, "we knew the kind of player we wanted. Winners. Quality people. Leaders. Now, don't get me wrong, they had some of that here. But with the guys we brought in, we're hoping some of what they've got rubs off on people, mixes in well and then, boom, you've got something."

Whether the elements of the makeover mesh quickly enough to translate into a dramatic difference in the wins column remains to be seen. The Browns amassed a dismal four victories in 2004. And their poor performance demanded a refurbishing in virtually every area.

The reality that the Browns are essentially starting over again, in Year 7 of the city's second NFL incarnation, is a tough pill for fans to swallow. But the sins of the past – squandered talent, a draft record that would have been better had team officials simply thrown darts at the board, imprudent spending on free agents, a palpable disconnect with the city – clearly cannot be atoned for overnight. The recent reign of terror and tumult promulgated by former coach Butch Davis is a stark reality, as is the fact that Cleveland is now working on a third different football hierarchy since re-entering the league in 1999.

But the perception is that the Browns are doing things right now, with an understanding that a turnaround might not be swift. What has been created, and in a very short time, is a much better mix in the locker room. "There are things that a few of us older guys can convey to the younger players, things that deal with the [realities] of the game, and maybe they'll listen because of the voice they're hearing it from," said guard Joe Andruzzi, who won three Super Bowl rings with the New England Patriots. "Me, I'm not a rah-rah guy who is going to jump up in the middle of the locker room and give a speech. But if a guy comes to me with a question, I'm going to be straight with him. And I'm going to work hard every day and try to set the example there. That's my brand of leadership."



Trent Dilfer is the Browns' projected starting QB this season.
Such a sentiment, that a player earns his "team leader" title (and respect) with his work ethic, was echoed by quarterback Trent Dilfer, another former Super Bowl winner.

On the long flight to Cleveland from Seattle, after Dilfer was dealt to the Browns, the veteran quarterback had plenty of time to consider his role with his new team. Dilfer broke out a legal pad, began scribbling down his thoughts about leadership and how he could connect with a bunch of players he didn't know well, and didn't stop until he had filled five pages.

"Look, this is still a bottom-line game, and you're still judged by how you perform on Sunday afternoons," Dilfer said. "It's a lot easier to [command] respect when you win. But, yeah, I kind of made sure I came in here with a strategy about how to approach this. I thought about all the experiences I've had in the game, good and bad, and settled on a way to incorporate all those things. But the fastest way to do it, no matter what, is to go out every day and work the hardest you can, and have guys see that's what you're doing. Then the intangible stuff, leadership and respect, falls into place."

Dilfer saved his leadership manifesto, has it stashed at the apartment he's renting close to the team complex, but hasn't yet had to refer back to it. Chances are, given the respect he has already commanded, Dilfer won't have to dig it back out for review. He and several other new players have brought with them a sense of professionalism and presence that has reenergized many of the veterans who have suffered through lean times here.

"More than anything," said tight end Steve Heiden, who has spent his entire six-year NFL tenure with the Browns, "I thought we just needed more veteran guys. There have been times when you looked around the huddle, and we had so many young guys who just didn't understand yet what it takes to win that you knew we were in trouble. You know how much easier everything becomes, even practices, when the huddle is filled with people who know the ropes? And the fact so many of them have been on winners and experienced success in the league, that adds even more to the mix."

[Rock Chalk]

Same song different verse.

We know fat ass doesnt like us. We know this for fact. Yet we still enjoy it when he disses on us because it gives us the perfect opportunity to make fun of his fat ass.

[fontaine]

Same song different verse.

We know fat ass doesnt like us. We know this for fact. Yet we still enjoy it when he disses on us because it gives us the perfect opportunity to make fun of his fat ass.

He does raise an interesting point though. Character counts for a lot, just ask the Patriots.

How will guys like Warren/Ekuban deal with the change in expectations in Denver? Especially Warren.

In cleveland he was constantly looked at as the guy who had to lead by example by virtue of his lofty draft status and the yearly disapearing act by Courteny Brown. Warren never lived up to that role and was allowed to coast along by Butch Davis.

It's a different story in Denver where he's viewed as just another guy. I think the expectation even during practice will be much different. In Cleveland he was a big fish in a small pond whereas in Denver he's just another guy who was brought in along with other questionable DLman.

There's no doubt that guys like Wilson/Lynch/Keith Burns/Coleman/Pryce are the ones who lead that defense so maybe a change in expectation/situation will allow these guys to just go out and play rather than having to constantly deal with the perception that these guys are viewed as busts/failures.

Maybe Mediator12 could shed some light on this as he's well versed in the psychological aspect of the pro game.

[Jason in LA]

That article makes it sound like they are on their way to the Super Bowl. They'll be lucky to go 8-8. I don't think they'll be that good.

[fontaine]

That article makes it sound like they are on their way to the Super Bowl. They'll be lucky to go 8-8. I don't think they'll be that good.

Yes, the chosen one made sure of that.

[ND Bronco Fan]

Its always easy to drool over the Pats and anyone associated with them, all these guys fall over themselves when it comes to Bellicheck and his great coaching pedigree..........so because he was a coach under him he must be just as smart at which point every personnel decision he makes will be right.

Tired of reporters, makes me wish Woody wrote more, at least he has his own opinions, albeit sometimes way out in left field but at least its a different perspective than all these other clowns jumping on a bandwagon. Fricken guy aint won a single game as an NFL coach and he is getting praised.

[Jason in LA]

Not only are the Browns on their way to the Super Bowl, but if you guys have heard reports out of South Bend, you'd think that Notre Dame is on their way to a national title.

[Sir Mawn]

I often wonder if character builds a championship team or if a championship worthy team builds character. Many times what you need are just a few players that lead by example and all the other flavor clowns and selfish players will jell.

The Cowboys of the 90's are an example of the team building character. They had their share of ego maniacs but combined with character guys they made it work. The same could be said about our own Superbowl teams.

Trends in the NFL will cause teams to focus on certain things over others: 4-3 over 3-4, zone blitzing, cover 2, west coast offense, run and shoot, mobile QB's, pocket passers, big linemen, quick linemen etc. And this is yet another trend.

There always has to be a mix between character and talent. How much of each depends on your taste and on the era. Personally, I'm happy with our situation as it stands now.

[WyoLaw]

Are Pasquarelli and Fat Boy Bill Williamson brothers/cousins/inbred relatives....heck something? They look too much alike not to be related...I can't stand either one!

[DBroncos4life]

I often wonder if character builds a championship team or if a championship worthy team builds character. Many times what you need are just a few players that lead by example and all the other flavor clowns and selfish players will jell.

The Cowboys of the 90's are an example of the team building character. They had their share of ego maniacs but combined with character guys they made it work. The same could be said about our own Superbowl teams.

Trends in the NFL will cause teams to focus on certain things over others: 4-3 over 3-4, zone blitzing, cover 2, west coast offense, run and shoot, mobile QB's, pocket passers, big linemen, quick linemen etc. And this is yet another trend.

There always has to be a mix between character and talent. How much of each depends on your taste and on the era. Personally, I'm happy with our situation as it stands now.


I would only add one key thing to that and its the word luck. Teams need luck just as much as they need skill.

[WyoLaw]

http://Pasquarelli_Len_35.jpg
http://20050516_060743_bill_williamson_cover_mug_2005.jpg

You make the Call.

[WyoLaw]

I guess I don't know how to post images. Anyone have any advise?

[epicSocialism4tw]

I would only add one key thing to that and its the word luck. Teams need luck just as much as they need skill.

Man, are you ever right with that comment. It takes a healthy team peaking at the right time to pull it off.

[broncosteven]

I often wonder if character builds a championship team or if a championship worthy team builds character. Many times what you need are just a few players that lead by example and all the other flavor clowns and selfish players will jell.

The Cowboys of the 90's are an example of the team building character. They had their share of ego maniacs but combined with character guys they made it work. The same could be said about our own Superbowl teams.


I think on the field they had more Chemistry than Character. Off the field they had plenty of "Chemical" induced issues, Irvin caught with Biatches & crack, a backup rb suppling the team with Heroin, Charles Haley 2-3 strikes with sub abuse, etc... but they had good chemistry on the field & low instances of injuries.

Jimmy Johnson turned a blind eye to these guys as long as they performed & they loved the fact that they could party all week as long as they won on Sundays. Lokk who Jones had to get after Johnson left, a gun toting crazy man...who Shanny started under to boot...


BTW I Love Tom Waits Music, Blind love is one of my all time fav songs Closing time is a GREAT album. Now your gone, & its Hotels & wiskey & bad luck dames, I don't care if they miss me I never remember their names... Damon Runyon of his generation...

[rbackfactory80]

He does raise an interesting point though. Character counts for a lot, just ask the Patriots.

How will guys like Warren/Ekuban deal with the change in expectations in Denver? Especially Warren.

In cleveland he was constantly looked at as the guy who had to lead by example by virtue of his lofty draft status and the yearly disapearing act by Courteny Brown. Warren never lived up to that role and was allowed to coast along by Butch Davis.

It's a different story in Denver where he's viewed as just another guy. I think the expectation even during practice will be much different. In Cleveland he was a big fish in a small pond whereas in Denver he's just another guy who was brought in along with other questionable DLman.

There's no doubt that guys like Wilson/Lynch/Keith Burns/Coleman/Pryce are the ones who lead that defense so maybe a change in expectation/situation will allow these guys to just go out and play rather than having to constantly deal with the perception that these guys are viewed as busts/failures.

Maybe Mediator12 could shed some light on this as he's well versed in the psychological aspect of the pro game.

Listen, character is overrated. Half the teams in the NFL have no character and multiple players on every team have no character. In the NBA it is even worse with no teams having any character. All these guys really care about is money and for the 5-10 guys on every team that really do care then I praise them. However Warren might have character issues but so doesn't 50 percent of players in the NFL.

[Atlas]

It's a feel good article for the Brownies. Good for them That's about the only good news they will have all year. The article maybe is even true. Maybe Warren and Ecuban and Brown quit on Butch Davis. I heard a lot of Brownies did.

They know this is their best chance at redemption. If they can't play good in Denver than they are truely busts. There is little risk and tons of reward for Shanny and team. My feelings are two of the Brownies won't amount to much and two of them will be good.



If that happens it will be fine with me.

[Bronco LB 59]

Patterson said the other day Ekuban, Courtney and Myers were good guys he would want to marry his daughter. He mentioned that Warren wasn't a bad guy and immaturity was his major problem in the past.

Pastajelly doesn't know the "Browncos". Are you going to believe Patterson or Pastajelly here?

The primary reason why the Browns traded these 4 guys dealt with their 3-4 scheme and not character. The only character issue was Warren and I think bringing him in was well worth the risk given his talent.

[rbackfactory80]

Pastajelly or whatever you want to call him is the biggest broncos hater going. Last year I read that stupid article he wrote when Kennoy opened his mouth and said the colts receivers were soft. I think him giving the Browns the high amount of praise he gave them just shows how stupid he is. I just hope somehow Denver will shut him up once and for all.

[Kaylore]

What an abnoxious article. The team is beginning to rebuild from the ground up, and it reads like they are the new elite team in the NFL. :TJnPopps:

[Mediator12]

Who did they add at LB in order to make the 3-4 work? Matt Stewart? Switching Kenard Lang To OLB? Romeo is delirious if he thinks that group of pathetic LB's can handle the brunt of the Work in a 3-4. More than any Group on that team, The LB's were the flat out worst unit in talent and performance in CLE. I am pretty sure they would have led the league in missed tackles as a unit last season if they kept that as an official stat. And for all the crap Romeo and Phil Savage have heaped on the Browns DL they let go, they did not fit the 3-4 scheme more so than being character problems.

What Cracks me up is that Len would buy into the hype that Crennel can take these LB's and make a 3-4 work. I guess new hype plays better in the Press room than old hype.

As to Fontaine's question about expectations and Warren, the biggest thing is a change of venue and getting a fresh start. Some players need change to play to their potential. They need to know somebody believes in them and wants them there. That was not the case in CLE. They were willing to blame and crucify Warren at every turn. He had a target on his back. Now, he is no longer the center of criticism. He can focus on playing and not representing the performances of the whole team.

[Mediator12]

Man, are you ever right with that comment. It takes a healthy team peaking at the right time to pull it off.

Usually, I would agree. The Eagles and Pats were pretty banged up going to the superbowl last year. Owens missed the two playoff games and the Pats had two Rookies and a converted WR in the secondary against the Colts and in the Bowl.

[MT-Tdawg]

Pastabelly is an ignorant tool that writes at a 6th grade level. He's always hated the Broncos and probably always will. 95% of the stuff he writes could have been done better by a drunken dwarf on acid.

[DarkHorse30]

Its always easy to drool over the Pats and anyone associated with them, all these guys fall over themselves when it comes to Bellicheck and his great coaching pedigree..........so because he was a coach under him he must be just as smart at which point every personnel decision he makes will be right.
.

Patsies don't strike me as being a dynasty....maybe because even though Denver has lost most of its best players since '98 I think our team, even with a mockup QB like Kanell, can beat 'em. Doesn't a "dynasty" actually have to kick the crap out of a team in the SB at least once? This Vinatieri-last-second-FG-to-win isn't exactly brilliant...merely consistently workmanlike....not unlike Belichek.

Any doubts that Pastabelly probably was seriously rooting for the browns during their Belichek days......when they stunk, and everybody said Belichek was worthless as a HC?

[Boogerboots]

Lets rephrase this shall we...

“ When we started to [reshape] this team, we knew the kind of player we wanted. Winners. Quality people. Leaders. Now, don't get me wrong, they had some of that here. But with the guys with athletes foot that we brought in, we're hoping some of what they've got rubs off on people, mixes in well and then, boom, you need tough actin' Tinactin.�
—Coach Romeo Crennel

http://www.bodog.com/images/football/heresjohnnymadden.jpgBOOM!

[Dr. Broncenstein]

where does the ****ing soulja fit into the character upgrade?

[labronx]

I often wonder if character builds a championship team or if a championship worthy team builds character. Many times what you need are just a few players that lead by example and all the other flavor clowns and selfish players will jell.

The Cowboys of the 90's are an example of the team building character. They had their share of ego maniacs but combined with character guys they made it work. The same could be said about our own Superbowl teams.

Trends in the NFL will cause teams to focus on certain things over others: 4-3 over 3-4, zone blitzing, cover 2, west coast offense, run and shoot, mobile QB's, pocket passers, big linemen, quick linemen etc. And this is yet another trend.

There always has to be a mix between character and talent. How much of each depends on your taste and on the era. Personally, I'm happy with our situation as it stands now.

awesome point

I think Championships build character more than character builds championships.

How many times do you see a loser ass player win a championships and then go to another team and go back to his loser way.

Like the say winning cures everything.
you win all of a sudden everyone on the team is a stand up guy.
you keep losing and Gerrard Warren has character flaws, but ask MS if he has seen any of this. ???

[labronx]

Who did they add at LB in order to make the 3-4 work? Matt Stewart? Switching Kenard Lang To OLB? Romeo is delirious if he thinks that group of pathetic LB's can handle the brunt of the Work in a 3-4. More than any Group on that team, The LB's were the flat out worst unit in talent and performance in CLE. I am pretty sure they would have led the league in missed tackles as a unit last season if they kept that as an official stat. And for all the crap Romeo and Phil Savage have heaped on the Browns DL they let go, they did not fit the 3-4 scheme more so than being character problems.

What Cracks me up is that Len would buy into the hype that Crennel can take these LB's and make a 3-4 work. I guess new hype plays better in the Press room than old hype.

As to Fontaine's question about expectations and Warren, the biggest thing is a change of venue and getting a fresh start. Some players need change to play to their potential. They need to know somebody believes in them and wants them there. That was not the case in CLE. They were willing to blame and crucify Warren at every turn. He had a target on his back. Now, he is no longer the center of criticism. He can focus on playing and not representing the performances of the whole team.


Good point MD12

check out this article on exactly what you said about change of venue and somebody else believing in you!

http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-adande16jun16,1,4380865.column?ctrack=1&cset=true

Dumars' Point Is Reclamation

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. — If there's one superstar on this Detroit Piston team of rejects-turned-champions, he is sitting in Suite 219 at the Palace.

While the players meet with reporters on the court, the man who put the whole thing together, who defied decades of NBA conventional wisdom, is isolated, in the dark. He prefers it that way.

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"I do my best work in the shadows," Joe Dumars says.

He spent his 14-year playing career with the Pistons in the shadow of Isiah Thomas, his more celebrated backcourt partner. As the team's president of basketball operations, Dumars has assembled an unlikely collection of players that won the championship last year and is back in the NBA Finals looking for another.

What Jerry West did for the Lakers in the 1980s and '90s, Dumars is doing for the Pistons.

He isn't stuck on statistics or news clips. No need for numbers or reputations. He goes by what he sees, what those he trusts tell him, and finally what instinct instructs him. He watched Game 3 halfway up the arena, joined by only four other people in a suite that accommodates 30. He was in the same spot when the Pistons worked out the next day.

"I just observe people's tendencies," Dumars says. "See what their personalities are like, try to look beyond the dribbling and running and jumping, try to see what's inside someone."

Wednesday, after Tuesday night's first Piston victory in the series, he saw players who felt better about themselves, players who now understand the level at which they must play to compete with the San Antonio Spurs.

Of course, it's easy to see the swagger restored after a big victory. Where Dumars excels is finding the potential in players everyone else has abandoned.

Point guard Chauncey Billups has been traded or let go five times. Center Ben Wallace wasn't drafted and was traded by his first two NBA teams.

Guard Richard Hamilton was traded by the Washington Wizards, despite a 20-point scoring average, in part because the Wizards thought he might be too frail.

Forward Rasheed Wallace was considered a member of the NBA's all-head-case team in Portland. Forward Tayshaun Prince was the No. 23 pick in the 2002 draft.

Now they're considered the best overall starting five in the league.

"Most of the moves basically have the same DNA, and that's guys who were basically missed or passed over or given up on for some reason," Dumars said. "I think what this team really shows is sometimes — not all the time, but sometimes — the fact that you show a player that you believe in him, probably more than he believes in himself at the time, can elevate guys. That's the DNA of this team. These cats have been down before. That's why when we were down 2-0, [they rallied]. These cats have been down before."

There's a loyalty the players feel toward Dumars that just doesn't exist in other organizations.

"Joe gave a lot of us opportunities that we never had," Billups said. "When you finally get that opportunity, you want to make well. You want to show your appreciation. I think that's what we get."

Just ask Antonio McDyess, another Dumars find who looks as happy as a puppy rescued from the pound. McDyess was considered finished after three knee surgeries, but Dumars saw something he liked.

When he got home after Piston games, he watched McDyess' games with the Phoenix Suns on the satellite dish, then signed him for a guaranteed $23 million over four years, even though McDyess' scoring average had dropped to less than half of his 20 points per game peak. But he has been repaid with a reliable sixth man who has averaged about eight points a game in the playoffs.

"He trusted in my knee and trusted in me coming in to help this team," McDyess said. "It was a lot of people that gave up on me, and he wasn't one of them. He told me when I first came in that I still had it. He believed in me. When you've got the GM believing in you, you only can believe in yourself."

Dumars was sold after talking to Billups, who had played with McDyess in Denver.

"I knew I was getting an incredible guy," Dumars said. "In saying all that, you have to take risks. You can't sit back and conservatively try to become a world champion. It doesn't work like that. You can't sneak in the back door and try to win a world championship. You've got to take chances, you've got to take risks."

It's a go-for-it approach that he developed in Natchitoches, La., a place of "gumbo-eating, crawfish-eating, Cajun folks," as he describes it. But there was great athletic talent there.

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"I guess we're all products of our environments," Dumars said. "I knew if I was going to get out of Louisiana, get out of the bayou, it wasn't going to be the conservative route. You've got to go for it.

"You better bring it, or cats are going to be at your dome. You've got to compete, man. Because cats are coming at you. You either compete or you shut it down. I wasn't about to shut it down."

He played on an AAU team with Karl Malone and John "Hot Rod" Williams and saw he could hold his own against the top competition in the country. He starred at McNeese State and was the Pistons' first-round pick in 1985 and averaged 16 points a game for his career.

Dumars was chosen the most valuable player of the NBA Finals in 1989, when the Pistons swept the Lakers. Which brings up an interesting point.

Seventeen of the 21 other players who won that award since it first was given in 1969 are in the Hall of Fame, or practically guaranteed to be enshrined. Dumars isn't, yet.

Michael Jordan would be the first to argue that Dumars deserves to be.

"Who says he shouldn't?" he said, somewhat angrily, when I asked him about it once.

If Dumars does join Thomas, it will put the Pistons in line with the other 1980s champions, such as the Lakers (Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy), the Boston Celtics (Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish), and Philadelphia 76ers (Moses Malone, Julius Erving) who established the standard that it takes at least two Hall of Fame players to win a championship.

That's what makes these Pistons so remarkable. It's likely that none of these players will reach the hall. Yet it's possible the team could have two championships.

In that case, Dumars should definitely go to the Hall of Fame. As an executive.

J.A. Adande can be reached at j.a.adande@latimes.com. To read previous columns by Adande, go to latimes.com/adande.

[labronx]

Patsies don't strike me as being a dynasty....maybe because even though Denver has lost most of its best players since '98 I think our team, even with a mockup QB like Kanell, can beat 'em. Doesn't a "dynasty" actually have to kick the crap out of a team in the SB at least once? This Vinatieri-last-second-FG-to-win isn't exactly brilliant...merely consistently workmanlike....not unlike Belichek.

Any doubts that Pastabelly probably was seriously rooting for the browns during their Belichek days......when they stunk, and everybody said Belichek was worthless as a HC?


That is true at least one ass kickin' to show who the man of house is! :pimp:

[ØrangeÇrush]

I don't know what kind of crack these people smoke. In describing character, lets look at some of these high character guys on the NE team.

Rodney Harrison -- While playing for San Diego was often described as, cut throat and a head hunter.

Ty Law -- Every year all he did was bad mouth the organization, complain about his pay, talk down in the media to his teammates and coach.

Corey Dillion -- name says it all, pariah in Cincinatti.

Richard Seymour -- not really a character concern, however, notice who isn't in mini camps..not much being said about that.

Willim McGinest -- faked an injury on the 1 yard line to catch his breath, came out one play, came back in and stopped Edge on the last play of the game. Writers called it a trick by a wily vet. Sounds like cheating to me...nice character.

Everything is right in the world when your winning, and everyone's a saint. Whatever..

[fontaine]

Everything is right in the world when your winning, and everyone's a saint. Whatever..

This is true. But I'm trying to find out how much character and chemistry come into the equation of winning.

Last year all the hype was about Lynch/Marco Coleman/Luther and how these guys (especially Lynch) were lockerroom leaders and guys with great character.

I have no doubt that Lynch's professionalism and ardor for the game helped some of the younger guys in the secondary.

I know some people have said that winning builds character, and I agree with that to a certain extent but just look at the influence Rod has over guys like Lelie/Watts who all bust their balls during offseason to get ready and in shape, and how Droughns tooks Rod's advice and ended his holdout. I mean would Watts/Lelie be trying just as hard if they had someone like TO or Edge or Shockey in the team and not attending camps instead of Rod?

I think you definitely need to have a couple of guys on both sides of the ball who define your team in their effort and character regardless of how the team is doing. What I wouldn't give to have another stone cold warrior like Eddie Mac on this team again. Secretly I'm hoping Brown/Ekuban pan out more than Warren does because I am of the firm belief that even if Warren does play well then he'll go back to being a turd again once he gets his payday.