Gary Horton (Scouts, Inc) on Shanny

[bloodsunday]

I was just on ESPN.com's chat with Gary Horton of Scouts, Inc and I posted a question to him:

AJ (Denver): Gary, Speaking of speculation and high goals, why is Mike Shanahan so widely criticized? Is he just a lightning rod for the media? Denver made a lot of highly publicized moves this offseason, but most of them really don't warrant the attention they get (Rice, Clarett, Dayne). Let me put it this way, Bill Belichik brings in D Terrell and its a "coy" move, Mike Shanahan brings him and its just another "turd" on the Denver roster. Why is that?

Gary Horton: (11:38 AM ET ) That's actually a very fair question, AJ. I think the answer is probably partially b/c Shanahan is perceived to have all the power and personnel moves, but he is not having the success on the field that Belichick is having. This limits his genius tag. Too many people make a big deal out of Shanahan not being able to have great success since Elway. Now, every move they make in personnel seems to be a comparision to the Elway days. As a perfect example, it was an organizational decision to bring in Jake Plummer, but yet every one wants to tie Jake's success or lack thereof to Shanahan. I happen to think Mike is a smart personnel guy who makes sound decisions, but the Broncos just haven't won enough on the field to keep everybody happy. Because their struggles coincided with the retirement of Elway, it's easy to assume that he was the key to their win and not a coach. However, in my opinion, there is nobody else in the NFL that can get more out of this roster than Shanahan. In the post Elway era, this has still been a very competetive football team in a very tough division.

---

I guess the answer (winning) was self-evident. But I just don't understand why people are so naive. Does anyone believe that if Tom Brady retired or got hurt today that the Patriots would not INSTANTLY drop to Denver's level (or worse)? The only difference between them is that Shanny signed on with Denver in the winter of Elway's career and Bellichik lucked out on a 6th round pick that he will have for virtually his entire career?

I take a little heart in knowing that thousands of football fans read this and perhaps have a slightly different perspective (from a credible source) of Shanny and the Denver organization now. It just makes me sick that people have villified this organization.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[fontaine]

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Yeah, there's loads of coaches who were labelled as QB Gurus, or offensive masterminds (like Shanny) but don't catch as much heat because of other distracting issues.

Such as Brian Billick who was supposed to a QB Guru and offensive mastermind. Let's see, he got rid of Dilfer, brought in Grbac and failed, brought in Redman and failed, tried in between stop gaps like Tony Banks and failed, and brought in Boller and has failed so far. The ravens have flat out sucked in their passing game and QB performance.

But luckily for Billick, his team keep the media occupied with their frequent run ins with the law like Jamal setting up a deal for a mountain of coke, Ray Ray being an acessory to a murder, Suggs etc etc.

The biggest problem the media seem to have with Shanny though, is that he's one of the longest tenured coaches with the same team. Bill Cowher catches the same flack because he's been with the Steeler's so long.

[Tombstone RJ]

I was just on ESPN.com's chat with Gary Horton of Scouts, Inc and I posted a question to him:

AJ (Denver): Gary, Speaking of speculation and high goals, why is Mike Shanahan so widely criticized? Is he just a lightning rod for the media? Denver made a lot of highly publicized moves this offseason, but most of them really don't warrant the attention they get (Rice, Clarett, Dayne). Let me put it this way, Bill Belichik brings in D Terrell and its a "coy" move, Mike Shanahan brings him and its just another "turd" on the Denver roster. Why is that?

Gary Horton: (11:38 AM ET ) That's actually a very fair question, AJ. I think the answer is probably partially b/c Shanahan is perceived to have all the power and personnel moves, but he is not having the success on the field that Belichick is having. This limits his genius tag. Too many people make a big deal out of Shanahan not being able to have great success since Elway. Now, every move they make in personnel seems to be a comparision to the Elway days. As a perfect example, it was an organizational decision to bring in Jake Plummer, but yet every one wants to tie Jake's success or lack thereof to Shanahan. I happen to think Mike is a smart personnel guy who makes sound decisions, but the Broncos just haven't won enough on the field to keep everybody happy. Because their struggles coincided with the retirement of Elway, it's easy to assume that he was the key to their win and not a coach. However, in my opinion, there is nobody else in the NFL that can get more out of this roster than Shanahan. In the post Elway era, this has still been a very competetive football team in a very tough division.

---

I guess the answer (winning) was self-evident. But I just don't understand why people are so naive. Does anyone believe that if Tom Brady retired or got hurt today that the Patriots would not INSTANTLY drop to Denver's level (or worse)? The only difference between them is that Shanny signed on with Denver in the winter of Elway's career and Bellichik lucked out on a 6th round pick that he will have for virtually his entire career?

I take a little heart in knowing that thousands of football fans read this and perhaps have a slightly different perspective (from a credible source) of Shanny and the Denver organization now. It just makes me sick that people have villified this organization.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Whether its justified or not, Shanny bears the burden of being blamed for the Broncos lack of recent success in the playoffs. I have been a staunch Shanny supporter in the past, but now even I'm changing my toon to a degree. The Broncos need to win a playoff game period.

[DBroncos4life]

Yep when you win it all thats all fans want. Most people on here don't seem happy with making the playoffs at all and I've seen some that say they would rather blow up the roster then face another 10-6 season. :bash:

[KillerBronco#76]

always nice to see someone actualy giving a little credit to shanahan.

[Jason in LA]

The standards of winning have been raised, which is good and bad. It's good because there is a strong effort every year to win, and that's produced a competitive team every year. Back to back 10 win seasons is nothing to hang our heads at. The Broncos have been in the playoff hunt each of the past four years.

The problem is they aren't going as far as we think they should be, and we are all upset over it, and rightfully so. They are not reaching the standards that they have set for themselves. It's not from a lack of trying. A little luck is involved, and they have been an unlucky team. There have also been a few really bad decision (Carter, IHOP, Griese's contract).

I've always been a Shanny supporter, and I hope he's there for a very long time. But even I know that they have to get past the level of just being competitive. They've become what the Dolphins were a couple of years back. That's not good enough.

I stated before that I think Shanny has gone back to what works. He didn't go after the big name free agent this year. He went back to taking a bunch of guys with a lot to prove, like he did before the Super Bowl run.

Because of this standard we all have something to look forward to. We are looking forward to a Super Bowl run, like each year. Think any faider fan is looking forward to a Super Bowl run? They'll be happy with an 8-8 season. There are many teams that would be happy with an 8-8 season. I'd hate it if that's all I had to root for.

[Tombstone RJ]

It still all hangs on the QB. Plummer is going to have make less mistakes.

[fontaine]

Yep when you win it all thats all fans want. Most people on here don't seem happy with making the playoffs at all and I've seen some that say they would rather blow up the roster then face another 10-6 season. :bash:

Actually I'm happy enough because I don't support the Redskins!
Those guys have it real bad.

[DBroncos4life]

My only beef is that "egg" we always seem to lay in the middle of the season. Most of the time we start off great then go to the crapper. We find away to not do that we get to 11 or 12 wins a year.

[Traveler]

I'm interested in seeing how NE does now that both their coordinators are gone. This will determine if Belicheck (sp?) should really be given the credit he so richly gets now.

As for Shanahan, he on a two years leash as far as I'm concerned. Thing is, what I might think or want doesn't matter.

That said, if he can't get this team back into the upper eschelon after 8 years, it's time to try someone else.

[DBroncos4life]

I know Mike wasn't the greatest coach with the Faiders but I don't remember him ever going 6 years below .500 either. Old Bill is a great coach but its not like everything he touches turns to gold either.

[bloodsunday]

Such as Brian Billick who was supposed to a QB Guru and offensive mastermind. Let's see, he got rid of Dilfer, brought in Grbac and failed, brought in Redman and failed, tried in between stop gaps like Tony Banks and failed, and brought in Boller and has failed so far. The ravens have flat out sucked in their passing game and QB performance.
Rep for that! There is absolutely no heat on this guy and his team has underperformed more than the Broncos since their Super Bowl. As you mentioned, he can't even find a starting QB, let alone a Pro Bowler.

[fontaine]

That said, if he can't get this team back into the upper eschelon after 8 years, it's time to try someone else.

There are about 10 or so teams that fall into this category. Teams like the Jets, Jags, Broncos, Seahawks, vikings etc etc are just in a holding pattern waiting to draft two/three key players that turn out to be studs and push the team into being elite.

The problem is there are only a handfull (maybe less) of these players every year and New England bagged two great ones in Seymour/Brady recently.

[bloodsunday]

The biggest problem the media seem to have with Shanny though, is that he's one of the longest tenured coaches with the same team. Bill Cowher catches the same flack because he's been with the Steeler's so long.
Relative to their success (2 Super Bowls versus 3 losses in the AFC Title game AT HOME), Shanny catches way more heat. But, I agree that his tenure has something to do with it. I think Shanny has taken Elway's place as the most recognizable figure in Denver, which comes with some intense heat.

[bloodsunday]

The Broncos need to win a playoff game period.
I think that is a very fair comment. I think Shanny would acknowledge that himself.

I just don't get why people aren't smart enough to actually think and analyze the situation before jumping on the Shanny Hate Wagon. The guy is the best coach this football team MAY EVER SEE. Scary. If we throw Shanny overboard, then how hard will it be without a Hall of Fame Coach and a Hall of Fame QB?

[bloodsunday]

Yep when you win it all thats all fans want. Most people on here don't seem happy with making the playoffs at all and I've seen some that say they would rather blow up the roster then face another 10-6 season. :bash:
Clearly those people have not been watching the San Fran 49ers lately. Everyone likes to point to Baltimore as the poster child for that approach (19 rookies 2 years ago), but are they really any better than Denver right now?

[bloodsunday]

It still all hangs on the QB. Plummer is going to have make less mistakes.
Again, fair. Also something that the organization (and Plummer) would likely acknowledge publicly.

[bloodsunday]

I'm interested in seeing how NE does now that both their coordinators are gone. This will determine if Belicheck (sp?) should really be given the credit he so richly gets now.
Maybe. I think Brady is more the linch pin here. Over time the combination of a HOF coach and a HOF QB is usually the right ingredients for success. Coordinators come and go a little more frequently. But you are right that this poses a challenge that NE hasn't had to deal with yet. They didn't even bring in a true OC, they are doing it by committee!

As for Shanahan, he on a two years leash as far as I'm concerned. Thing is, what I might think or want doesn't matter.
I think Bowlen will keep Shanny as long as he can. Shanny is a top 5 coach in this league no doubt. The leash should be on Plummer.

That said, if he can't get this team back into the upper eschelon after 8 years, it's time to try someone else.
I don't believe that because coaches as good as Shanny just don't come along that often. We may never see a coach as good as him again. As we have seen, its tough to step down from HOF to even above average.

[Traveler]

I think that is a very fair comment. I think Shanny would acknowledge that himself.

I just don't get why people aren't smart enough to actually think and analyze the situation before jumping on the Shanny Hate Wagon. The guy is the best coach this football team MAY EVER SEE. Scary. If we throw Shanny overboard, then how hard will it be without a Hall of Fame Coach and a Hall of Fame QB?


I would've said the best football coach we've had thus far. Semantics, I know.

Never know what's in the future and I certainly can see this team without him. Not all change is necessarily bad. I'd also like to say I'm not hating on him, just tired of the mediocrity. He's been a great coach for the team and the fans, but this is a what have you done for me lately profession. And lately, he doesn't have much to hang his hat on since the SB years.

[NFLBRONCO]

I've been hard on Shanny myself lately but, the biggest problem really is we need a legit QB LT DE WR FS to get us over the hump we LACK playmakers in key areas.

[Tombstone RJ]

Relative to their success (2 Super Bowls versus 3 losses in the AFC Title game AT HOME), Shanny catches way more heat. But, I agree that his tenure has something to do with it. I think Shanny has taken Elway's place as the most recognizable figure in Denver, which comes with some intense heat.

I don't think that change is good, just for change stake. That is, I don't want the Broncos to dump Shanny just to shake things up. But, if Shanny continues to to lose in the first round of the playoffs, and he continues to keep the Broncos at mediocrity, then to me, he is no better than Bill Cowher of the Steelers. I've never been a big fan of Bill Cowher becuase he has never proven anything to me that says he's an elite coach. Yet, the Steelers have stuck with him and stuck with him and stuck with him. The Steelers have finally hit pay dirt with Roethlisberger and now Cowher may appear to be an elite coach, not because he is an elite coach, but because he has an elite QB and a good team to win with.

I don't want the Broncos to go through year after year of being OK before they finally realize they do need either a new HC and system, or an elite QB.

Is Plummer the guy? IMO, I'm not seeing it. He makes too many stupid mistakes. Like it or not, I'm blaming this on Shanny.

[Traveler]

I've been hard on Shanny myself lately but, the biggest problem really is we need a legit QB LT DE WR FS to get us over the hump we LACK playmakers in key areas.

Exactly! And that goes back to Shanny, the personnel guy! That's what been holding this team back IMO. Kind of a double edge sword. He's a coach good enough to keep us competative. But that hurts us when trying to acquire the blue chip talent we need to take it to the next level. If the personnel side were better, ie., missing on too many early round choices, we wouldn't be having this dicussion.

I do think Sundquist has elevated the personnel side to the extent he can. I wonder what kind of players would be on the roster if he had complete control?

[bloodsunday]

I don't think that change is good, just for change stake. That is, I don't want the Broncos to dump Shanny just to shake things up.
I agree. As long as Shanny is a top coach, he should stay. Maybe his role (as GM) needs to be revisisted. He'd probably leave if that happened, but I'd rather that then flat out fire him.

But, if Shanny continues to to lose in the first round of the playoffs, and he continues to keep the Broncos at mediocrity, then to me, he is no better than Bill Cowher of the Steelers. I've never been a big fan of Bill Cowher becuase he has never proven anything to me that says he's an elite coach. Yet, the Steelers have stuck with him and stuck with him and stuck with him. The Steelers have finally hit pay dirt with Roethlisberger and now Cowher may appear to be an elite coach, not because he is an elite coach, but because he has an elite QB and a good team to win with.
Couple of points here. First of all, I find this to be a contradiction. You say that the Pittsburgh is stuck with Cowher, then you say that they have it it big because Cowher has a good QB and good team? If Cowher is so bad then you'd have to say he is holding Pittsburgh back somehow. Right? Secondly, I am not ready to annoint Roehhlisbergererererererere the best QB in the NFL just yet. He played well in the role the Steelers gave him last year, but his production tailed off when it mattered most. He appears to have a bright future, but we won't know for at least another season or two. That team rode its opportunistic defense last year. Kurt Warner (and even our own Griese) serves as an example that one year of success is too little to judge.

I don't want the Broncos to go through year after year of being OK before they finally realize they do need either a new HC and system, or an elite QB.

Is Plummer the guy? IMO, I'm not seeing it. He makes too many stupid mistakes. Like it or not, I'm blaming this on Shanny.
I have been pulling my hair out with Plummer. I look at it like this: Is Shanny an elite coach in the NFL? Yes. Is Plummer an elite QB in the NFL? No. If you are a believer (like me) that this combination is the key ingredient to success, then you must be as frustrated as me that they continue to ignore this position year after year. Plummer would be fine with me as a stop gap QB. But to be a stop gap implies that you have a plan to succeed him and we don't!

[bloodsunday]

Exactly! And that goes back to Shanny, the personnel guy! That's what been holding this team back IMO. Kind of a double edge sword. He's a coach good enough to keep us competative. But that hurts us when trying to acquire the blue chip talent we need to take it to the next level. If the personnel side were better, ie., missing on too many early round choices, we wouldn't be having this dicussion.

I do think Sundquist has elevated the personnel side to the extent he can. I wonder what kind of players would be on the roster if he had complete control?
There is a grain of truth to all this, but there is also some misconception. First of all, the Broncos are typically working with less than most teams (late picks and little salary cap money). Considering the number of moves (and even the quality) we made and the resources we had available (after relinquishing our #1 pick) this offseason, you have to be a bit amazed. As far as drafting is concerned, I think that has been sufficiently covered on this board. The general conclusion seems to be that Denver is on par (maybe better) than the NFL average in the draft. They need to improve, especially at key positions (WR, DB, DL), but all in all they are pretty good.

I'd be interested to hear what someone like Wabbit has to say about Shanny and his power within the organization. I simply don't know. The perception is that he has it all and even that his a bit of a dictator. The organization seems to be screaming at the top of their lungs to anyone that will listen that Sundquist's role is growing and he is taking a lot off of Shanny's plate. The biggest issue I see here is that Shanny is the coach first and the GM second. Therefore he has a tendency to make personnel decisions based on winning now and not down the road, where a true GM would be more likely to balance the long and short term better.

[rbackfactory80]

I was just on ESPN.com's chat with Gary Horton of Scouts, Inc and I posted a question to him:

AJ (Denver): Gary, Speaking of speculation and high goals, why is Mike Shanahan so widely criticized? Is he just a lightning rod for the media? Denver made a lot of highly publicized moves this offseason, but most of them really don't warrant the attention they get (Rice, Clarett, Dayne). Let me put it this way, Bill Belichik brings in D Terrell and its a "coy" move, Mike Shanahan brings him and its just another "turd" on the Denver roster. Why is that?

Gary Horton: (11:38 AM ET ) That's actually a very fair question, AJ. I think the answer is probably partially b/c Shanahan is perceived to have all the power and personnel moves, but he is not having the success on the field that Belichick is having. This limits his genius tag. Too many people make a big deal out of Shanahan not being able to have great success since Elway. Now, every move they make in personnel seems to be a comparision to the Elway days. As a perfect example, it was an organizational decision to bring in Jake Plummer, but yet every one wants to tie Jake's success or lack thereof to Shanahan. I happen to think Mike is a smart personnel guy who makes sound decisions, but the Broncos just haven't won enough on the field to keep everybody happy. Because their struggles coincided with the retirement of Elway, it's easy to assume that he was the key to their win and not a coach. However, in my opinion, there is nobody else in the NFL that can get more out of this roster than Shanahan. In the post Elway era, this has still been a very competetive football team in a very tough division.

---

I guess the answer (winning) was self-evident. But I just don't understand why people are so naive. Does anyone believe that if Tom Brady retired or got hurt today that the Patriots would not INSTANTLY drop to Denver's level (or worse)? The only difference between them is that Shanny signed on with Denver in the winter of Elway's career and Bellichik lucked out on a 6th round pick that he will have for virtually his entire career?

I take a little heart in knowing that thousands of football fans read this and perhaps have a slightly different perspective (from a credible source) of Shanny and the Denver organization now. It just makes me sick that people have villified this organization.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

To tell you the truth I think if Brady left N.E. then they would easily drop to Denver's level. His receivers are not great and his running game or lack of running game was with him for two super bowls. Everytime it is 3rd and long what happens? Brady drops back and fires a strike to one of his many overachieving receivers. His is so clutch when it counts. Anyway if Brady was not there I could not see them with more then 9-10 wins. The only team that truly cant do anything against their defense is the colts and that is mental.

[Traveler]

If you are a believer (like me) that this combination is the key ingredient to success, then you must be as frustrated as me that they continue to ignore this position year after year.


Proving my point exactly. It's the personnel (Shanny) side that's holding this team back. I would love to keep him here as coach. But only as the coach!

His belief that evaluating the quarterback position is a crapshoot at best is true to a point. But he also must realize that not having a franchise QB is a major part of getting to the next level.

[bloodsunday]

To tell you the truth I think if Brady left N.E. then they would easily drop to Denver's level. His receivers are not great and his running game or lack of running game was with him for two super bowls. Everytime it is 3rd and long what happens? Brady drops back and fires a strike to one of his many overachieving receivers. His is so clutch when it counts. Anyway if Brady was not there I could not see them with more then 9-10 wins. The only team that truly cant do anything against their defense is the colts and that is mental.
Exactly! I think their defense would still be good, but not good enough to carry them to 3 Super Bowl wins. Its an inconsistent argument to say that Shanny has never won without Elway and then not admit that Walsh never won without Montana, Holmgren never won without Favre, and BB never won without Brady. Like Shanny, he was cast aside from his first NFL coaching gig.

[bloodsunday]

Proving my point exactly. It's the personnel (Shanny) side that's holding this team back. I would love to keep him here as coach. But only as the coach!

His belief that evaluating the quarterback position is a crapshoot at best is true to a point. But he also must realize that not having a franchise QB is a major part of getting to the next level.
I don't believe this all falls on Shanny. He is not the only guy evaluating talent for this team. As I have stated already we have limited resources every offseason and that makes it tough to go out and get a sure fire QB. You have to get a bit lucky on a guy later in the draft or someone that gets cast aside. I was very critical of them not taking guys like Simms and Pennington, but neither of them has exactly set the world on fire. I feel your pain when it comes to figuring out the future of this position, but I am not ready to lay all that a Shanny's feet. Elite NFL QBs don't grow on trees.

[bloodsunday]

Speaking of growing on trees... did anyone see the commercial about the beer tree? While I know that's off topic, it was hilarious.

[bombquixote]

I don't think that change is good, just for change stake. That is, I don't want the Broncos to dump Shanny just to shake things up. But, if Shanny continues to to lose in the first round of the playoffs, and he continues to keep the Broncos at mediocrity, then to me, he is no better than Bill Cowher of the Steelers. I've never been a big fan of Bill Cowher becuase he has never proven anything to me that says he's an elite coach. Yet, the Steelers have stuck with him and stuck with him and stuck with him. The Steelers have finally hit pay dirt with Roethlisberger and now Cowher may appear to be an elite coach, not because he is an elite coach, but because he has an elite QB and a good team to win with.

I don't want the Broncos to go through year after year of being OK before they finally realize they do need either a new HC and system, or an elite QB.

Is Plummer the guy? IMO, I'm not seeing it. He makes too many stupid mistakes. Like it or not, I'm blaming this on Shanny.


cowher took his team to the superbowl and the afc championship game with cordell stewart at the helm. let's pause for just a moment and let that sink in....cordell stewart. yes, cowher is an elite coach.

[Traveler]

I don't believe this all falls on Shanny. He is not the only guy evaluating talent for this team. As I have stated already we have limited resources every offseason and that makes it tough to go out and get a sure fire QB. You have to get a bit lucky on a guy later in the draft or someone that gets cast aside. I was very critical of them not taking guys like Simms and Pennington, but neither of them has exactly set the world on fire. I feel your pain when it comes to figuring out the future of this position, but I am not ready to lay all that a Shanny's feet. Elite NFL QBs don't grow on trees.


Who really knows how much Shanny defers to others in selecting players? But this much we know, since he controls virtually all phases of the organization, there is no other person to lay our personnel failures on. His greatness as a coach and his failures as a personnel guy seems to cancel each other out. Thus luck has to be the determining factor. And the lady hasn't been too kind lately!

[Kaylore]

There are a lot of things I love about having Mike Shanahan here. Shanahan will get you at least 8 wins. He always produces at running the ball. I love that our team is nationally recognized for something we consistantly do well. His play calling is fun to watch. They are creative and exciting and show a good deal of thought. All those things make for better football to watch IMO.

I recently watched the 90' KC Vs. Denver MNF game (Elway Vs DeBerg). Man, the playcalling of Reeves was boring. First play of EVERY down is run up the middle. Humphrey had a good game that day, but most defenses keyed off of that he would get nailed for nothing or a loss.

I'm someone who loves the Broncos whether they win the Super Bowl or not. I do think they need to win a playoff game, but really for me, As long as they are competitive I'll support them. I watch football because its fun and I think a lot of Bronco fans forget that there are teams who've never gone to the super bowl, and other teams that have gone several times and keep coming up short (Vikings, Bills), and then there are teams that have goals to get a winning season like the Cards and the Lions (both which have a fair shot this year by the way).

I watch the game becaus its fun, and I support the Broncos because I love them. Shanahan makes the game fun, keeps the team competitive, and has shown he can win a championship should the ball bounce in our favor. As long as those criteria are met, I'm supporting this team.

[NW Bolt Fan]

To tell you the truth I think if Brady left N.E. then they would easily drop to Denver's level. His receivers are not great and his running game or lack of running game was with him for two super bowls. Everytime it is 3rd and long what happens? Brady drops back and fires a strike to one of his many overachieving receivers. His is so clutch when it counts. Anyway if Brady was not there I could not see them with more then 9-10 wins. The only team that truly cant do anything against their defense is the colts and that is mental.
It's NE's defense that solidifies them as champions. It may be tougher with a different QB, but their defense is solid no matter who plays.

[fontaine]

It's NE's defense that solidifies them as champions. It may be tougher with a different QB, but their defense is solid no matter who plays.

Yes, their defense is solid but with Bledsoe back there Bellichick, Crennel, Weis and that team were bottom feeders.

Insert Brady and they have a typical WCO with a quick release, who can read defenses and distribute the ball.

With Bledsoe back there they have an immobile QB that needs more time to setup and read his receivers and make the pass which means anything less than a great OL is the offenses doom.

The difference is going 7-8 wins with Bledsoe to winning superbowls with Brady.

[fontaine]

I don't believe this all falls on Shanny. He is not the only guy evaluating talent for this team. As I have stated already we have limited resources every offseason and that makes it tough to go out and get a sure fire QB. You have to get a bit lucky on a guy later in the draft or someone that gets cast aside. I was very critical of them not taking guys like Simms and Pennington, but neither of them has exactly set the world on fire. I feel your pain when it comes to figuring out the future of this position, but I am not ready to lay all that a Shanny's feet. Elite NFL QBs don't grow on trees.

Exactly. What people don't realize is that Shanahan has been trying with all his power to distribute the responsibility of winning games to everyone on the team apart from the QB.

In Elway's days Shanahan put a lot more emphasis on the QB/RB positions as playmakers.

Post Elway, Shanahan has realized that not only do we not have an elite QB but given our salary cap and draft slots, it's near impossible for us to draft one. That's why we keep drafting RBs, investing in defense/CB, because with guys like Plummer you need the QB to be less influential in running the offense.

I'll say this: This team is poised and waiting for the QB to step up. We don't need a Brady to win superbowls. A Chad Pennington, Hasselback, Delhomme type will do. Someone who isn't a liability on the field and for god's sake can run a quick release/distribute the ball type of WCO offense. This is something Plummer does NOT do well.

Yes, Plummer has his pluses like being a team leader, mobile, competitive with a good long ball and he sells the play action well BUT if he can learn to spread the ball around better and make two quick reads then make a decision we would be sorted.

Plummer does this sporadically but not consistently. Too often he is dependant on his primary WR to make a play and get open so he can lob him the ball rather than checking down decisively and adjusting his reads. I can't overestimate how important that is because it's the difference between having two/three options in the passing game where one of the WRs is bound to be open instead of just counting on THE guy (Rod) to get it done for the QB.

C'mon Plummer, sack up and get it done or you hit the road next year. And for god's sake hit your WR in stride! This isn't backyard football.

[Atlas]

I'.

That said, if he can't get this team back into the upper eschelon after 8 years, it's time to try someone else.

I agree Denver should be more like the Bengals and cardinals and fire a coach every 2 or 3 years until we field another SB winning team.

[ØrangeÇrush]

I'd just like to know when we were supposed to draft this franchise QB...sitting around the 20 spot every year. The closest one that came to us, if you'd call him a franchise QB, is Boller a couple of years ago. Next year will be the first time for us to be set up to draft one, I'm not sold on whether they even have one next year.

[Tombstone RJ]

I'd just like to know when we were supposed to draft this franchise QB...sitting around the 20 spot every year. The closest one that came to us, if you'd call him a franchise QB, is Boller a couple of years ago. Next year will be the first time for us to be set up to draft one, I'm not sold on whether they even have one next year.

Um, Brady was taken in the sixth round... Obviously, it was somewhat of a lucky pick, but its not all luck. Someone did research on the kid and he payed off big time.

The QBs are there, you just have to find them. The Skins took the Broncos #25 pick and rolled it on Campbell. We shall soon see if Gibbs and company know something that Shanny and company dont.

[Garcia Bronco]

Yeah, there's loads of coaches who were labelled as QB Gurus, or offensive masterminds (like Shanny) but don't catch as much heat because of other distracting issues.

Such as Brian Billick who was supposed to a QB Guru and offensive mastermind. Let's see, he got rid of Dilfer, brought in Grbac and failed, brought in Redman and failed, tried in between stop gaps like Tony Banks and failed, and brought in Boller and has failed so far. The ravens have flat out sucked in their passing game and QB performance.

But luckily for Billick, his team keep the media occupied with their frequent run ins with the law like Jamal setting up a deal for a mountain of coke, Ray Ray being an acessory to a murder, Suggs etc etc.

The biggest problem the media seem to have with Shanny though, is that he's one of the longest tenured coaches with the same team. Bill Cowher catches the same flack because he's been with the Steeler's so long.


I know a bunch of Baltimore fans and they're so happy to have a team again that they don't dump on their team like the Denver media does.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Tough division my ass.

[Garcia Bronco]

Um, Brady was taken in the sixth round... Obviously, it was somewhat of a lucky pick, but its not all luck. Someone did research on the kid and he payed off big time.

The QBs are there, you just have to find them. The Skins took the Broncos #25 pick and rolled it on Campbell. We shall soon see if Gibbs and company know something that Shanny and company dont.


I don't see what the surprise is....Gibbs has never had a great QB....their strength in the 80's was the o-line...something the Betheard put together.

[fontaine]

I know a bunch of Baltimore fans and they're so happy to have a team again that they don't dump on their team like the Denver media does.

Damn jailbird fans. Think they're too good for the Redskins!

[Phantom]

Everyone has a an opinion (referring to national media), why ....

The Broncos are "America's Team" :homer:

Seriously, either you love 'em or hate 'em ...

Like the Lakers or Yankees.

We all have teams that we are 'indifferent' towards - for me, the Saints, Panthers, Bills, Giants - teams I could root for or against, depending on the season, but in the case of the Broncos - across this great land, its love 'em or hate 'em. Elway had alot to do with this too.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'm pretty sure Dallas Cowboys fans don't give a **** about the Denver Broncos. Or any fan of an NFC team for that matter. (MAYBE the Packers).

[Phantom]

I'm pretty sure Dallas Cowboys fans don't give a **** about the Denver Broncos. Or any fan of an NFC team for that matter. (MAYBE the Packers).

That maybe true for the Chiefs, but not for America's Team.

You need to get out of your trailer park more often.

See when you've been to 6 Super Bowls (second only to Dallas) it's hard to escape the spotlight.

I would say most football fans have an opinon of the Raiders (love / hate) as well, but the Chiefs and Chargers - who ? ???

[Traveler]

I agree Denver should be more like the Bengals and cardinals and fire a coach every 2 or 3 years until we field another SB winning team.

Your words, not mine bro

So, correct me if I'm wrong. What you are saying is that in a couple of years, if we are still at the point we are now (mediocre), you'd be okay with that?

All I'm saying is (again) I'm willing to bear it out and go in another direction if we see no marked improvement a couple of years from now. If we have some down years, I could deal with it as long as there is a plan in place and we could see the team getting better.

[Atlas]

Your words, not mine bro

So, correct me if I'm wrong. What you are saying is that in a couple of years, if we are still at the point we are now (mediocre), you'd be okay with that?

All I'm saying is (again) I'm willing to bear it out and go in another direction if we see no marked improvement a couple of years from now. If we have some down years, I could deal with it as long as there is a plan in place and we could see the team getting better.

Name one sport just won where winning 60% of your games is mediocre.
You also said that you were getting frustrated and you would want to fire Shanny after this season. Now you change your mind to a couple of years. If Denver finishes 10-6 this year going into the offseason I will again be optimistic. Being 10-6 is great. Being 10-6 means you were 2 plays away: or you are 2 players away from being great. It means every little thing you do in the offseason can push you over the top. That's not a bad thing at all.

Don't you see? Elam makes that FG against the Faiders and Griffin doesn't fumble against the Wads then Denver is 12-4 and are hosting a playoff game. Denver was that close. So you sit their and cry in your milk and get all frustrated over what I'm not sure. I'm anticipating another 10-6..... but maybe Denver this year will make those two plays, maybe they signed those 2 players that get them to 12-4.

Maybe this year they will achieve greatness.

[Traveler]

Name one sport just won where winning 60% of your games is mediocre.
You also said that you were getting frustrated and you would want to fire Shanny after this season. Now you change your mind to a couple of years. If Denver finishes 10-6 this year going into the offseason I will again be optimistic. Being 10-6 is great. Being 10-6 means you were 2 plays away: or you are 2 players away from being great. It means every little thing you do in the offseason can push you over the top. That's not a bad thing at all.

Don't you see? Elam makes that FG against the Faiders and Griffin doesn't fumble against the Wads then Denver is 12-4 and are hosting a playoff game. Denver was that close. So you sit their and cry in your milk and get all frustrated over what I'm not sure. I'm anticipating another 10-6..... but maybe Denver this year will make those two plays, maybe they signed those 2 players that get them to 12-4.

Maybe this year they will achieve greatness.


No my friend, slow your roll!

I said that Shanny was on a two year leash with me. And if we are in the same position two years from now, then let's go in another direction.

I also stated earlier in this thread that we've been mediocre at best since the 98 season. So I am not and did not advocate firing him next year!

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. I'm looking for the "DID"! When they actually do take the next step, I'll gladly tone down the rhetoric.

[maven]

I have been pulling my hair out with Plummer. I look at it like this: Is Shanny an elite coach in the NFL? Yes. Is Plummer an elite QB in the NFL? No. If you are a believer (like me) that this combination is the key ingredient to success, then you must be as frustrated as me that they continue to ignore this position year after year. Plummer would be fine with me as a stop gap QB. But to be a stop gap implies that you have a plan to succeed him and we don't!

Plummer is a stop gap. He's not our franchise QB. I see our franchise QB coming by way of the Redskins pick. I see the Redskins going 4-12 or 5-11. Denver ends up with a top 5 pick. Then, I see a possible trade to move up to #1 overall. Denver finally selects a franchise QB to build on. Shanny has 2 or 3 years to develop him. If he succeeds, he's a genius & will be in Denver for a very long time & hopefully winning SB's. If not, he's fired & gone for good.

[Atlas]

No my friend, slow your roll!

I said that Shanny was on a two year leash with me. And if we are in the same position two years from now, then let's go in another direction.

I also stated earlier in this thread that we've been mediocre at best since the 98 season. So I am not and did not advocate firing him next year!

Woulda, shoulda, coulda. I'm looking for the "DID"! When they actually do take the next step, I'll gladly tone down the rhetoric.

Again I ask. When did winning 60% of your games become mediocre?? Were you a Bronco fan before they won those superbowls? Winning SBs isn't easy. I wonder what you would think if you were a Chef fan? I would rather have a team that you know is going to be above average with a chance every year to go to the SB with a couple of breaks than to just go off and start firing Shanny because 10-6 isn't good enough for some fans. So Bowlen fires Shanny brings is a new guy how many years do you give this guy?What happens if in the first year the Broncs are 4-12.... Damn Shanny was never 4-12.

There is definatley nothing wronmg with being 10-6 as long as your trying to improve and get better. Because you are almost there.

You sound like a spoiled Cowboy or 49er fan... Well, I guess you kinda are, your a spoiled Bronco fan that wants to have another Elway at QB.

Please stop saying 10-6 is mediocre. 70% of the NFL would love to go 10-6!!

[broncosteven]

It has only been 5 years since last Bronco SB. In that time we only had 1 sub .500 season. Bear fans here in Chicago would Love to have our record during that time & have a stable coach.

Shanny has a good foundation we only need a couple players to step it up on the field, & minimize Injurys. I like that people don't respect the Bronco organization as it gives them motivation to prove them wrong.

I don't think there is a better coach out there, we would have to suffer through a string of 1st time coaches for years before we would even get back to a decent 10-6 record (i.e. Bears, Cowboys, 49ers, Chargers, Chefs, Buttland). I don't care about the record, as long as they make the playoffs & win the big games. All playoff teams have to win to advance, it helps to have home field but we did it the hard way in 97.

[bloodsunday]

Tough division my ass.
I'd take nearly any other division in football over the AFC West in terms of having an easier schedule. Sure, Oakland is down right now, but every other team is competitive and Oakland is only a few years removed from a Super Bowl appearance. The division is one of the most consistent in the NFL. Not to mention the fact that we have some of the best rivalries. It's tought to count on a win against Oakland, Denver or KC even when they are down because of the rivalry factor. Denver learned that lesson the hardway last year....

Hell, I'd have taken any division in the NFC last year (except for maybe the East). Even there you would have only had two tough games.

[bloodsunday]

Yes, their defense is solid but with Bledsoe back there Bellichick, Crennel, Weis and that team were bottom feeders.

Insert Brady and they have a typical WCO with a quick release, who can read defenses and distribute the ball.

With Bledsoe back there they have an immobile QB that needs more time to setup and read his receivers and make the pass which means anything less than a great OL is the offenses doom.

The difference is going 7-8 wins with Bledsoe to winning superbowls with Brady.
Yeah I agree -- anyone that thinks NE would have won those three Super Bowls with Bledsoe or Rohan Davey is out of their friggn' mind. Yeah, NE defense is good, but its not as good as Baltimore's was when it carried them to the Super Bowl. NE still relies on their offense to make big plays in the clutch (Brady to Branch). Baltimore only sent their offense out to give their defense some rest. Other than that, they may have prefered to play 60 minutes of D.

[bloodsunday]

Exactly. What people don't realize is that Shanahan has been trying with all his power to distribute the responsibility of winning games to everyone on the team apart from the QB.
I think he has also. The problem is that eventually you need your QB to be big if you want to go deep in the playoffs. The most dominant teams of all time all had HOF coaches AND QBs.

I'll say this: This team is poised and waiting for the QB to step up. We don't need a Brady to win superbowls. A Chad Pennington, Hasselback, Delhomme type will do. Someone who isn't a liability on the field and for god's sake can run a quick release/distribute the ball type of WCO offense. This is something Plummer does NOT do well.
I agree again. However, we need more than a caretaker at QB. We need a guy that plays our system well. Much is made of Plummer's mobility (because Griese was a statue), but he is the opposite of Griese -- he can't throw from the pocket. A guy that can mix that up a little would be nice. You can't throw the ball on a roll out 30 times a game.

Yes, Plummer has his pluses like being a team leader, mobile, competitive with a good long ball and he sells the play action well BUT if he can learn to spread the ball around better and make two quick reads then make a decision we would be sorted.
I think we put too much emphasis on these qualities because of the Griese experience. Griese was okay in terms of ability, but he didn't have any intangibles. Now we get a guy that has less ability (at least as a pure passer) than Griese because of his intangibles. The pendulum swung a bit too far the other way I think.

I think Plummer is a fine QB and a QB that we might even be able to win a Super Bowl with (if the defense plays lights out), but he's certainly not a franchise type guy. I am just disappointed that in 6 years this team has done little to bring along a young guy. I believe all our draft pick QBs have been 7th rounders since Griese. They aren't really making much of an effort, although I heard that they tried to move up and get that kid from Lousiville this year.

[labronx]

cowher took his team to the superbowl and the afc championship game with cordell stewart at the helm. let's pause for just a moment and let that sink in....cordell stewart. yes, cowher is an elite coach.

I can't believe nobody caught this one!

Cowher did not take the Steelers to bowl with Kordell. It was Neal O'Donell. Kordell got beat in the AFC champ game at home by you know who.

No Cowher is actually luck Ben came along or he might of been out of Pitt by now.

He almost got let go off a couple of years ago,

ahem

[labronx]

Im getting tired of the first round exits, actually I am tired of it. I give Plummer and Shanny this year depending on how it shakes out, one of them has to go, unless we lose in the AFC championship or a Div game by some kind of freak play or some miracle comeback that would not be a direct result of a Shanny or Plummer mistake. If we lose in the first round one of them has to go.

you make the call

[labronx]

opps bombquixote
my bad I could have swore my retarded ass read superbowl. You are right about Kordell and Cowher.

I still dont think he is an elite coach. a good one yes.

[ØrangeÇrush]

Um, Brady was taken in the sixth round... Obviously, it was somewhat of a lucky pick, but its not all luck. Someone did research on the kid and he payed off big time.

The QBs are there, you just have to find them. The Skins took the Broncos #25 pick and rolled it on Campbell. We shall soon see if Gibbs and company know something that Shanny and company dont.


Umm...I'd like to see Brady trot out behind the line that Brian Griese had in Denver..Ephraim Salaam? Trey Teague? Look Brady is a good quarterback no doubt, he's clutch. However, when Brady was drafted Brian Griese was putting up Pro Bowl numbers.

[clarker]

Yeah I agree -- anyone that thinks NE would have won those three Super Bowls with Bledsoe or Rohan Davey is out of their friggn' mind. Yeah, NE defense is good, but its not as good as Baltimore's was when it carried them to the Super Bowl. NE still relies on their offense to make big plays in the clutch (Brady to Branch). Baltimore only sent their offense out to give their defense some rest. Other than that, they may have prefered to play 60 minutes of D.I think the Pats were 5-11 the year before they won their first Super Bowl. Having Tom Brady as QB helps.

[clarker]

I can't believe nobody caught this one!

Cowher did not take the Steelers to bowl with Kordell. It was Neal O'Donell. Kordell got beat in the AFC champ game at home by you know who.

No Cowher is actually luck Ben came along or he might of been out of Pitt by now.

He almost got let go off a couple of years ago,

ahemI think they are saying that Cowher took them to the Super Bowl once before then a few years later reached a AFC title game with Stewart. In fact he reached two AFC title games with Kordell. They lost to the Pats in 2001.

[Atlas]

I can't believe nobody caught this one!

Cowher did not take the Steelers to bowl with Kordell. It was Neal O'Donell. Kordell got beat in the AFC champ game at home by you know who.

No Cowher is actually luck Ben came along or he might of been out of Pitt by now.

He almost got let go off a couple of years ago,

ahem

Cowher is a good coach but he can't hold Shanny's jock. He has had very talented teams in Pittsburgh. Great defenses ect... Where are his trophy's??

[Pat Bowlen]

Im getting tired of the first round exits, actually I am tired of it. I give Plummer and Shanny this year depending on how it shakes out... If we lose in the first round one of them has to go.

you make the call
Haha... who do you think gets released first?

Bold post!

[Atlas]

Im getting tired of the first round exits, actually I am tired of it. I give Plummer and Shanny this year depending on how it shakes out, one of them has to go, unless we lose in the AFC championship or a Div game by some kind of freak play or some miracle comeback that would not be a direct result of a Shanny or Plummer mistake. If we lose in the first round one of them has to go.

you make the call

They had 2 first round exists in 2 years. Another spoiled Bronco fan

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'd take nearly any other division in football over the AFC West in terms of having an easier schedule. Sure, Oakland is down right now, but every other team is competitive and Oakland is only a few years removed from a Super Bowl appearance. The division is one of the most consistent in the NFL. Not to mention the fact that we have some of the best rivalries. It's tought to count on a win against Oakland, Denver or KC even when they are down because of the rivalry factor. Denver learned that lesson the hardway last year....

Hell, I'd have taken any division in the NFC last year (except for maybe the East). Even there you would have only had two tough games.

Eh. Over the last five years SD and KC have had one winning season each, Denver has been mediocre and Oakland had a couple of good years. Nothing to write home about.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Eh. Over the last five years SD and KC have had one winning season each, Denver has been mediocre and Oakland had a couple of good years. Nothing to write home about.

Yeah, mediocre is 48-32.

[Rohirrim]

No wonder TJ won't let Bob shake the "Information Minister" title. The guy is so consistently, stupendously wrong.

[DBroncos4life]

No wonder TJ won't let Bob shake the "Information Minister" title. The guy is so consistently, stupendously wrong.



As much as I don't like Bob sometimes he does take his beatings and he keeps on coming back for more. As much as it pains me to say it he DOES bring something to the board.