Ravens always seem to be a step ahead of everyone else when it comes to D

[labronx]

We and other teams jumped on the bandwagon with the whole 2 massive-tackles and let the MLB make plays after they won the Bowl and then they had success with the 3-4 and we copied them again.

What's next?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2084252



Scheme should aid LB's freelancing

Associated Press
Related Video:
Reports to halfway house in Atlanta

OWINGS MILLS, Md. -- No one is happier to be a part of the Baltimore Ravens' new 46 defense than middle linebacker Ray Lewis, who can't wait to again experience the freedom of hunting down running backs without the hassle of shaking off bothersome offensive linemen.

The scheme was originally devised by Buddy Ryan for the 1986 Chicago Bears, who won a Super Bowl behind the standout play of middle linebacker Mike Singletary. Ryan is the father of Ravens first-year defensive coordinator Rex Ryan, who has installed the high-pressure alignment in part to allow Lewis to attack the football without having to take on the kind of isolation blocks that at times limited his effectiveness last season.

"That's like telling your premier running back that you're going to make sure he's not going to be touched in a football game,'' Lewis said Monday after the opening session of a four-day mandatory minicamp. "To come into camp and have my defensive coordinator tell me I'm not going to be touched, I'm like a little kid all over again.''

Playing last season in the 3-4 alignment of defensive coordinator Mike Nolan, who left to become head coach of the San Francisco 49ers, Lewis led the Ravens with 200 tackles and was selected to play in the Pro Bowl for a seventh time. But his effectiveness was dependent upon his ability to battle through the isolation blocks of opposing linemen.

That shouldn't be a problem this season.

"We're excited about getting the bull's-eye off Ray Lewis,'' Rex Ryan said. "He doesn't need to be a nose guard this year. We should be in great shape against the running game. You don't have a blocker for Ray.''

Head coach Brian Billick said, "It fits Ray and his expertise in the middle. I can't speak for Ray, but I would think he's very excited about the potential this holds.''

Now in his 10th season, Lewis made a name for himself early in his career by tracking down running backs and dropping them with a ferocious tackle. If all goes as planned, he will return to that role in 2005.

"That's what I do. I don't try to bash people and try to get to the football. I get to the running back,'' Lewis said. "No running back wants to face me in this league.''

The Ravens' defense last year restricted Lewis from running free, but he accepted his role and performed as best he could under the circumstances.

"It's tough, because you have to humble yourself and take coaching and do whatever they tell you to do,'' Lewis said. "Whether it takes away from your game or helps it, you just deal with it. That's what I did. It didn't alter how I prepared, it didn't alter my passion for the game. But at the same time, it alters how dominant I can be.''

It was a different kind of offseason for Lewis, who decided to taper his relentless workouts in favor of letting his mind and body heal following a disappointing 9-7 season that ended without a trip to the playoffs.

"Usually I'm right back at it in three weeks, but this year I took two months off,'' he said. "I got away from being involved in anything that had to do with football. Instead, I dealt with my family and kids.''

There has been speculation that Lewis would be a holdout at camp because he wants to re-negotiate his contract, but he attended a voluntary session last week and insisted that money matters are not weighing on his mind.

"Now is not the time to speak about a contract,'' he said.

Running back Jamal Lewis, who is serving time at a halfway house in Atlanta, and Terrell Suggs, who is being tried in Arizona on assault charges, were among those missing at Monday's session. Defensive back Deion Sanders was excused to take care of a personal issue.

[TheNextStep]

I'm just sayin' here... but nobody copied the Ravens' 3-4 defense. Everyone copied New England's 3-4 defense... including the Ravens.

[Clockwork Orange]

Oh drat, does this mean that we won't get to hear Ray Ray whining like a school girl with a skinned knee on Monday Night Football again?

[labronx]

I'm just sayin' here... but nobody copied the Ravens' 3-4 defense. Everyone copied New England's 3-4 defense... including the Ravens.

well the 3-4 was run by Pitt before Belli came to NE.
I dont know about Balt copying NE aren't the Ravens and Pitt in the same division?

[TheNextStep]

But what has Pittsburgh won? A few years ago, the only teams in the league running the 3-4 were the Steelers and Eagles, neither of whom were winning a damned thing... and nobody else was quick to jump on that bandwagon.

New England, however, runs off 3 titles in 4 years and you see a sudden marked increase in teams running that system. There's no way in hell that everybody was copying the Ravens and I don't see how you can even argue that, considering that New England was running a 3-4 AND WINNING CHAMPIONSHIPS WITH IT back when even Baltimore was running the 4-3.

[Pat Bowlen]

I'm just sayin' here... but nobody copied the Ravens' 3-4 defense. Everyone copied New England's 3-4 defense... including the Ravens.
Beat me to it. The Patriots started that trend all the way.

[labronx]

But what has Pittsburgh won? A few years ago, the only teams in the league running the 3-4 were the Steelers and Eagles, neither of whom were winning a damned thing... and nobody else was quick to jump on that bandwagon.

New England, however, runs off 3 titles in 4 years and you see a sudden marked increase in teams running that system. There's no way in hell that everybody was copying the Ravens and I don't see how you can even argue that, considering that New England was running a 3-4 AND WINNING CHAMPIONSHIPS WITH IT back when even Baltimore was running the 4-3.

nobody is arguing anything.

I get your point about NE winning and everybody copying, however, I wouldn't go as far as saying that NE runs the 3-4 look at the superbowl and youll see that they mainly ran a 4-3.

Ask Bellicheck and he will even tell you that he doesn't run the 3-4 hes a maniac he runs all kinds of stuff.

ITs all a matter of who he is playing that week. Balt though ran a base 3-4 last year under Nolan and before the DC who went over to Cinci they ran a 3-4 back then I think the 3-4 has always been a big part of the AFC Central.

SD has been running it for years, if you really want to talk about everyone jumping on the bandwagon and all of a sudden using the 3-4 just look at your team.

The Raiders abandoned it halfway through the year, I never understood why they even tried as they never had the manpower for it.

I still dont understan why we dont employ as a bigger part of our "base" package.

[labronx]

Beat me to it. The Patriots started that trend all the way.

yawn

[SoCalBronco]

I dont think anyone will be going to the 46 as more than a small package. It has definite limits in the coverages you can run from it, its a run defense almost solely. The way people today are spreading Ds out, you cannot survive with a 46 as a base in a passing league. You will be able to predict with a high degree of certainty the coverage you will get and any time the other side knows what you are going to do, your almost always in trouble. Outside of Man-Blitz, Man-Free, Man-Free with Robber, Man with a bracket of a reciever or TE and the Three Deep Zone, there isnt alot else you can run against the pass from the 46. And Shanny knows how to carve up a 46, even a 46 with talented players. Back in 95, we tore Buddy Ryan a new one, 38-6, with good players in the front eight.

[labronx]

But what has Pittsburgh won? A few years ago, the only teams in the league running the 3-4 were the Steelers and Eagles, neither of whom were winning a damned thing... and nobody else was quick to jump on that bandwagon.

New England, however, runs off 3 titles in 4 years and you see a sudden marked increase in teams running that system. There's no way in hell that everybody was copying the Ravens and I don't see how you can even argue that, considering that New England was running a 3-4 AND WINNING CHAMPIONSHIPS WITH IT back when even Baltimore was running the 4-3.

you are right the Eagles also ran the 3-4 and back in the days ran the 4-6. Which in my mind is variation of the 3-4.

This all brings you back to who? Buddy Ryan

[labronx]

I dont think anyone will be going to the 46 as more than a small package. It has definite limits in the coverages you can run from it, its a run defense almost solely. The way people today are spreading Ds out, you cannot survive with a 46 as a base in a passing league. You will be able to predict with a high degree of certainty the coverage you will get and any time the other side knows what you are going to do, your almost always in trouble. Outside of Man-Blitz, Man-Free, Man-Free with Robber, Man with a bracket of a defender and the Three Deep Zone, there isnt alot else you can run against the pass from the 46. And Shanny knows how to carve up a 46, even a 46 with talented players. Back in 95, we tore Buddy Ryan a new one, 38-6, with good players in the front eight.
yep good post
the 46 is geared to be a quick massive pressure D at the point of attack it leaves your coverage team in allot of man to man or some weak zone schemes that will be destroyed by a quick, accurate passing attack like Indy's

[Clockwork Orange]

yep good post
the 46 is geared to be a quick massive pressure D at the point of attack it leaves your coverage team in allot of man to man or some weak zone schemes that will be destroyed by a quick, accurate passing attack like Indy's

A team like Indy can exploit them, true, but they're the exception rather than the rule. The Ratbirds secondary features Chris McAllister, Samari Rolle & Ed Reed. If anyone can pull it off, it's them.

[yavoon]

maybe, but this trend is an appeasement of ray lewis mostly. it might work tho, ray's one big weakness now is his loss of explosive power, he still has good range and is a great tackler. so I dont think they are hugely off the mark here.

[Pat Bowlen]

yawn
Either you agree or you don't. You claim to not be arguing, but you're still debating the opinion that the Patriots weren't the team that most recently ran the formation with real success. The reason that the 3-4 has been talked about and employed to the extent that is has in the past couple of seasons is directly due to New England's use of it and Bellicheck's ability to maximize its strengths.

I'm not saying that Baltimore hasn't been a trendsetter in the NFL, I'm just saying that they shouldn't get credit for the 3-4 craze that's going around, or for employing it successfully before anybody else thought to.

[DBroncos4life]

What killed the 3-4 back in the day?

[SoCalBronco]

What killed the 3-4 back in the day?

I dont know if anything killed it per se scheme wise, i would think its more that teams do not have that really powerful two gap NT that can absolutely shut things down inside, so that you can still have a great run D with only 3 guys on the line, and then have the versatility of blitzing several different combinations of backers to get the heat you need in the pass game. Those elite caliber NTs are a luxury, they come at a high premium. I think it was just that very few people had these kind of guys that perfectly fit this scheme. The 3-4 is very versatile, a very good defense. You dont know where the fourth guy is coming from, and you can shut down the passing game altogether if you want by dropping that extra guy into coverage, with a loaded three deep zone with 5 guys underneath and 3 guys deep taking away the whole shallow crossing game.

[sirhcyennek81]

3/4 was a response to the West Coast Offense, dropped lb's and dlinemen into passing zones to confuse and slow up the wco offense. offenses more prone to power running kind of "beat" the 3/4. key in today's nfl is the ability to play any defensive front at any time, 4-6, 4-4, 3-4, 4-3, ect. 2-9, whatever works.

[yavoon]

3/4 was a response to the West Coast Offense, dropped lb's and dlinemen into passing zones to confuse and slow up the wco offense. offenses more prone to power running kind of "beat" the 3/4. key in today's nfl is the ability to play any defensive front at any time, 4-6, 4-4, 3-4, 4-3, ect. 2-9, whatever works.

the good 3-4 defenses aren't really weak against the run. I understand the basic idea but I dont think it actually plays out as often as u think.

[Kaylore]

What killed the 3-4 back in the day?
Boy, everyone seems to be saying something else, but I recall the 3-4 being used extensively in the late 70's early 80's. In 1981 17 of 28 franchises used the 3-4 including the Broncos during that time. I remember the West Coast offense coming in and taking things apart, and then you saw a gradual shift toward the 4-3 with a select few teams staying with it, like the Steelers. The West Coast Offense era did away with the 3-4, it didn't bring it back. 3-4 was resurrected by Bill Cower in the 90's and now its become more popular because other teams are having success at it.

[Kaylore]

3/4 was a response to the West Coast Offense,
No it wasn't. The WCO wasn't widely used until the mid 80's and by then most teams were switching to 4-3 schemes.

[kappys]

Boy, everyone seems to be saying something else, but I recall the 3-4 being used extensively in the late 70's early 80's. In 1981 17 of 28 franchises used the 3-4 including the Broncos during that time. I remember the West Coast offense coming in and taking things apart, and then you saw a gradual shift toward the 4-3 with a select few teams staying with it, like the Steelers. The West Coast Offense era did away with the 3-4, it didn't bring it back. 3-4 was resurrected by Bill Cower in the 90's and now its become more popular because other teams are having success at it.

Kaylore is the only one on target here. The WCO killed the 3-4 defense because it focused too much on blitzing schemes with various LB"s, which left holes that allowed for quick slants and so forth to eat up a defense.

The 4-3 is a much more simple defense, which allowed the LB's to focus on short drops and quick routes and make tackles against those receivers and TE's who ran them. Cover 2 defenses out of a 4-3 set with both CB's and LB's playing short zones was designed to counter quick WCO routes.

As for the 46 I think it could work as a part time defense for the Ravens. The reason for that is not Ray Ray so much as it is Ed Reed. Reed has proved that if given the ability to roam the field he can come up with big play after big play. Given that Mcallister and Rolle are the CB's, they can let Reed gamble while dropping their FS deep. It is somewhat risky, but will work for them. Of course the focus will all be on Ray making some extra tackles, but the real focus of this defense will be Ed Reed IMO.

[Beantown Bronco]

Ray Lewis just moved up at least a round or two on my ff board. (we draft individual defensive players in addition to def teams)

[Beantown Bronco]

"To come into camp and have my defensive coordinator tell me I'm not going to be touched, I'm like a little kid all over again.''



Is it just me, or should the self-proclaimed "best LB in the game" not be saying things like this? Booo Hooo, I'm only good when I don't get touched. What a wuss. Why doesn't he become a kicker already?

[illbroncsfn]

Kaylore is the only one on target here. The WCO killed the 3-4 defense because it focused too much on blitzing schemes with various LB"s, which left holes that allowed for quick slants and so forth to eat up a defense.

The 4-3 is a much more simple defense, which allowed the LB's to focus on short drops and quick routes and make tackles against those receivers and TE's who ran them. Cover 2 defenses out of a 4-3 set with both CB's and LB's playing short zones was designed to counter quick WCO routes.

As for the 46 I think it could work as a part time defense for the Ravens. The reason for that is not Ray Ray so much as it is Ed Reed. Reed has proved that if given the ability to roam the field he can come up with big play after big play. Given that Mcallister and Rolle are the CB's, they can let Reed gamble while dropping their FS deep. It is somewhat risky, but will work for them. Of course the focus will all be on Ray making some extra tackles, but the real focus of this defense will be Ed Reed IMO.

Excellent post Kappys! I couldn't agree more that Ed Reed will be the true architect behind the Rex Ryan 46 defense. The death of the 46 defense was it's vulnerability in getting beat deep. May this fortune hold true for Baltimore :thumbsup:

[Jason in LA]

I wouldn't say the Broncos copied the Ravens with the big DTs. Keith Trayor was a huge DT before the Ravens loaded up at that position.

[Tombstone RJ]

We and other teams jumped on the bandwagon with the whole 2 massive-tackles and let the MLB make plays after they won the Bowl and then they had success with the 3-4 and we copied them again.

What's next?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2084252



Scheme should aid LB's freelancing

Associated Press
Related Video:
Reports to halfway house in Atlanta

OWINGS MILLS, Md. -- No one is happier to be a part of the Baltimore Ravens' new 46 defense than middle linebacker Ray Lewis, who can't wait to again experience the freedom of hunting down running backs without the hassle of shaking off bothersome offensive linemen.

The scheme was originally devised by Buddy Ryan for the 1986 Chicago Bears, who won a Super Bowl behind the standout play of middle linebacker Mike Singletary. Ryan is the father of Ravens first-year defensive coordinator Rex Ryan, who has installed the high-pressure alignment in part to allow Lewis to attack the football without having to take on the kind of isolation blocks that at times limited his effectiveness last season.

"That's like telling your premier running back that you're going to make sure he's not going to be touched in a football game,'' Lewis said Monday after the opening session of a four-day mandatory minicamp. "To come into camp and have my defensive coordinator tell me I'm not going to be touched, I'm like a little kid all over again.''

Playing last season in the 3-4 alignment of defensive coordinator Mike Nolan, who left to become head coach of the San Francisco 49ers, Lewis led the Ravens with 200 tackles and was selected to play in the Pro Bowl for a seventh time. But his effectiveness was dependent upon his ability to battle through the isolation blocks of opposing linemen.

That shouldn't be a problem this season.

"We're excited about getting the bull's-eye off Ray Lewis,'' Rex Ryan said. "He doesn't need to be a nose guard this year. We should be in great shape against the running game. You don't have a blocker for Ray.''

Head coach Brian Billick said, "It fits Ray and his expertise in the middle. I can't speak for Ray, but I would think he's very excited about the potential this holds.''

Now in his 10th season, Lewis made a name for himself early in his career by tracking down running backs and dropping them with a ferocious tackle. If all goes as planned, he will return to that role in 2005.

"That's what I do. I don't try to bash people and try to get to the football. I get to the running back,'' Lewis said. "No running back wants to face me in this league.''

The Ravens' defense last year restricted Lewis from running free, but he accepted his role and performed as best he could under the circumstances.

"It's tough, because you have to humble yourself and take coaching and do whatever they tell you to do,'' Lewis said. "Whether it takes away from your game or helps it, you just deal with it. That's what I did. It didn't alter how I prepared, it didn't alter my passion for the game. But at the same time, it alters how dominant I can be.''

It was a different kind of offseason for Lewis, who decided to taper his relentless workouts in favor of letting his mind and body heal following a disappointing 9-7 season that ended without a trip to the playoffs.

"Usually I'm right back at it in three weeks, but this year I took two months off,'' he said. "I got away from being involved in anything that had to do with football. Instead, I dealt with my family and kids.''

There has been speculation that Lewis would be a holdout at camp because he wants to re-negotiate his contract, but he attended a voluntary session last week and insisted that money matters are not weighing on his mind.

"Now is not the time to speak about a contract,'' he said.

Running back Jamal Lewis, who is serving time at a halfway house in Atlanta, and Terrell Suggs, who is being tried in Arizona on assault charges, were among those missing at Monday's session. Defensive back Deion Sanders was excused to take care of a personal issue.

Nothing new here. They are going to a 46 defense which clogs up the inside.

The only thing the Ravens are doing is making sure the two inside tackles hold up the interior offensive lineman so Ray-ray can make a play-play.

[TheNextStep]

nobody is arguing anything.

I'm not talking about getting into an argument so much as making a statement of fact that is incorrect. You said in post #1 that everyone was copying Baltimore's success with the 3-4. I disagree.

I get your point about NE winning and everybody copying, however, I wouldn't go as far as saying that NE runs the 3-4 look at the superbowl and youll see that they mainly ran a 4-3.

Ask Bellicheck and he will even tell you that he doesn't run the 3-4 hes a maniac he runs all kinds of stuff.

Every team shows different fronts and tries to confuse the offense and create matchup problems. The Raiders officially switched to the 3-4 last year... but the year prior, they played 3-4 on approximately 20% of their defensive snaps.

ITs all a matter of who he is playing that week. Balt though ran a base 3-4 last year under Nolan and before the DC who went over to Cinci they ran a 3-4 back then I think the 3-4 has always been a big part of the AFC Central.

No, Cincy hadn't played a 3-4 in quite some time. Remember how Takeo Spikes was making a name for himself? He wasn't in a 3-4 while he was doing it (though he's in a 3-4 now, in Buffalo, one of the first teams to copy New England).

As far as saying that the 3-4 has been a "big part" of the AFC Central, I would say that you could say that about any division in the league. At one point in time, the 3-4 defense was the predominant defense in the NFL. Hell, the Raiders won a Super Bowl running a 3-4 defense... and, as you Bronco fans like to remind us, that was a long-a$$ time ago...

SD has been running it for years, if you really want to talk about everyone jumping on the bandwagon and all of a sudden using the 3-4 just look at your team.

No, San Diego has not been running it for years. They, too, were a 4-3 team for a long time. John Parrella played 8 seasons in San Diego... and the first time he played in a 3-4 was when the Raiders switched to it last year. San Diego didn't switch to a 3-4 defense until they hired Wade Phillips as their defensive coordinator, last off-season.

As far as my team jumping on the 3-4 bandwagon, you're right. They did.

The Raiders abandoned it halfway through the year, I never understood why they even tried as they never had the manpower for it.

No, unfortunately, they didn't. Anybody who remembers seeing Tyler Brayton lined up at outside linebacker can tell you that. Anybody that remembers Warren Sapp playing defensive end all year long can tell you that. Hell, Norv Turner and Rob Ryan have already admitted as much by saying that they're making it a point this upcoming season to mix in a little more of the 4-3 defense, especially on 3rd and long, in order to try to use Warren Sapp to his strengths.

As for whether or not they had the manpower for it... well, how many teams do have the manpower to completely switch their defensive scheme in the first year of a DC's reign? Not many. Most people will tell you (myself included) that the first year after a change in schemes more likely than not results in a dropoff because the players have to get acclimated to playing within that scheme. Also, the Raiders weren't helped by the fact that half of our freakin' linebackers were injured by game 4 of the season (after which, Tyler Brayton was moved from DE to OLB). Hell, I wish we would have scrapped the 3-4 after our linebackers went down. Believe me, I know lots of Raider fans who are still pissed that they didn't.

I still dont understan why we dont employ as a bigger part of our "base" package.

Who plays NT? Who teaches your players how to run it, where they need to be, and what their responsibilities are? Most importantly, you guys had one of the best run stuffing defenses in the league last year... why switch schemes?

[Tombstone RJ]

But what has Pittsburgh won? A few years ago, the only teams in the league running the 3-4 were the Steelers and Eagles, neither of whom were winning a damned thing... and nobody else was quick to jump on that bandwagon.

New England, however, runs off 3 titles in 4 years and you see a sudden marked increase in teams running that system. There's no way in hell that everybody was copying the Ravens and I don't see how you can even argue that, considering that New England was running a 3-4 AND WINNING CHAMPIONSHIPS WITH IT back when even Baltimore was running the 4-3.

TNS, you gotta admit that the Steelers offense is what held the Steelers back, not their defense. The Pats found Tom Brady and bingo, SB win. The Steelers now have a good young QB and they still have a good running game. Steelers are now a ligit threat for the SB.

[TheNextStep]

TNS, you gotta admit that the Steelers offense is what held the Steelers back, not their defense. The Pats found Tom Brady and bingo, SB win. The Steelers now have a good young QB and they still have a good running game. Steelers are now a ligit threat for the SB.
I certainly agree with that. That said, you have to admit that while they say that the NFL is a "copy-cat league" the truth is that the only teams that get copied are the ones that win it all. Pittsburgh ran the 3-4 for YEARS and nobody else switched to it. Why? Because Pittsburgh wasn't winning.

Oh, and I think you give Brady too much credit. Guys like Ty Law and Willie McGinest and Richard Seymour have more to do with getting those rings than Brady fans would ever like to admit...

[Tombstone RJ]

What killed the 3-4 back in the day?

Big offensive tackles forced alot of defenses go to a 43 because it helped pressure the opposing QB better.

[Tombstone RJ]

I certainly agree with that. That said, you have to admit that while they say that the NFL is a "copy-cat league" the truth is that the only teams that get copied are the ones that win it all. Pittsburgh ran the 3-4 for YEARS and nobody else switched to it. Why? Because Pittsburgh wasn't winning.

Oh, and I think you give Brady too much credit. Guys like Ty Law and Willie McGinest and Richard Seymour have more to do with getting those rings than Brady fans would ever like to admit...

Point being that the Steelers 3-4 has always been a very good defense. The Steelers have been running it for so long that they know the exact type of defensive lineman and lineback to draft in order to be successful. Nobody throughout the years has drafted better than the Steelers when it comes to acquiring DEFENSIVE talent.

Now, their offense has been suspect for a long time. Niel O'Donnell was ok, but nothing special, Crydell Stewart at times was great, at other times he stunk, Tommy Maddox was good for a short time, then when down hill fast. Yet throughout all of this QB turmoil, the Steelers always had good offensive lines and a good running game with Bettis and company.

Now the Steelers have that one player that will make all the difference in the world: a great YOUNG QB.

Just like I predicted that Carry Collins will make the faiders almost unstoppable on offense, providing the faiders have a great big offensive line to protect him (and they do), I predict that the Steelers with Rotheisberger are now the AFCN team to beat.

Its all about the right QB, in the right system, at the right time. AKA Tom Brady and the Patriots.

[Mediator12]

Man, I love the 4-6 defense!! I would run it as a base if I could. It relies on an aggressive upfield approach every single play, and with a safety in the box every play it offers the same or better blitzing options as the 3-4.

However, it is probably professional suicide today. It requires four outstanding players in the secondary and a killer MLB. IMHO, that leaves BAL one guy short. The guy who will make or break it will be Will Demps and not Ed Reed though. Ed Reed is a SS and Demps is the FS for BAL. I think everyone assumes Reed is the FS because of the high number of INT's, but he is definitely the SS. While Demps is a good safety, he does not have the range IMHO to be the lone safety over the top. Also, he is not good enough to be the SS in that formation either.

As for the lack of 3-4 defenses the last decade or so, look at the number of good DE's in the league and who have now retired or at the end of their career's. The tweeners were in short supply to play outside backer in the 3-4. The DE's were in greater number. Plus, it usually favors the defense to get pressure with four up front rather than blitzing.

The trend back to the 3-4 is because teams have not prepared for it the way they have the 4-3 the last years. The novelty of the system has served teams well. It really makes calling the OL protections more important. The increased number of teams switching will dull some of its effectiveness. Supply and demand, novelty, and the stability of the 4-3 were the major causes. Right now the cyclical nature of things has evoked the 3-4 reaction.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I think most here are missing the big picture. The trend right now in the NFL is to use multiple defensive sets to disrupt the offensive flow/planning. Think back to all of the talk here about the Broncs moving to the 3-4. They, like most other teams, will be mixing 3-4, 4-3, 4-6, 2-5 and other defensive sets to try and offset the rules advantages that have been handed to the offenses.

[TheNextStep]

Tombstone - I agree with you. My point in saying that everyone copied the Patriots is NOT to say that Pittsburgh's 3-4 defense was performing poorly. They weren't - Bill Cowher (a coach that I admire a ton) always fields a great defense. My point isn't to say that they weren't good - my point is to say that nobody copied them, despite their defensive success, because they never won the Super Bowl. It wasn't until after the Patriots had run off a few Super Bowl victories that we started seeing the 3-4 base defense as a trend in the NFL.

Big Guy - I absolutely agree with that. New England runs a base 3-4 but Crennel's defense was always capable of multiple fronts and had the personnel that they could switch from one to the other on the fly.

[yavoon]

I think most here are missing the big picture. The trend right now in the NFL is to use multiple defensive sets to disrupt the offensive flow/planning. Think back to all of the talk here about the Broncs moving to the 3-4. They, like most other teams, will be mixing 3-4, 4-3, 4-6, 2-5 and other defensive sets to try and offset the rules advantages that have been handed to the offenses.

I only know one team that truly switches sets, the patriots. maybe we could wait till 2 teams do it to call it a trend.

[TheNextStep]

I only know one team that truly switches sets, the patriots. maybe we could wait till 2 teams do it to call it a trend.
Every team in the league switches defensive sets. Absolutely every single one of them. New England does it with better success... but to claim that they're the only team that does it is beyond ridiculous.

[labronx]

Either you agree or you don't. You claim to not be arguing, but you're still debating the opinion that the Patriots weren't the team that most recently ran the formation with real success. The reason that the 3-4 has been talked about and employed to the extent that is has in the past couple of seasons is directly due to New England's use of it and Bellicheck's ability to maximize its strengths.

I'm not saying that Baltimore hasn't been a trendsetter in the NFL, I'm just saying that they shouldn't get credit for the 3-4 craze that's going around, or for employing it successfully before anybody else thought to.

I never said balt started the trend did I?

but to say NE did is a stretch don't you think?

Like I told TNS, I see how people started using it more due to NE's success, but they certainly didn't start the trend.

anyways who cares? this post was about how Balt is always willing to try diff things, thats all.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Every team in the league switches defensive sets. Absolutely every single one of them. New England does it with better success... but to claim that they're the only team that does it is beyond ridiculous.

I guess he has never watched a game before. You are right, every team does it. NE just has a more complex system than most others have at this point.

[TheNextStep]

I never said balt started the trend did I?

but to say NE did is a stretch don't you think?

Like I told TNS, I see how people started using it more due to NE's success, but they certainly didn't start the trend.

anyways who cares? this post was about how Balt is always willing to try diff things, thats all.

Actually, you did say that Baltimore started the trend. In the thread title, you said that Baltimore was ahead of everyone else and, in your opening paragraph, you said "We and other teams jumped on the bandwagon with the whole 2 massive-tackles and let the MLB make plays after they won the Bowl and then they had success with the 3-4 and we copied them again."

And saying that New England started the actual trend is a stretch? No, not at all. You said so, sure... but I defy you to back that up. Here, I'll back my argument up: AFTER the Patriots won 2 Super Bowls, 7 teams switched to the 3-4 base defense. Don't believe me? Believe this:

Here is a link (http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayton_john/1575845.html) by John Clayton, written after the Patriots won their first Super Bowl. It lists 10 trends that he observed in the off-season immediately following. In Clayton's article, he says absolutely nothing about teams switching to a 3-4 defense as a trend. Why? Because nobody had. In fact, Clayton talks about the trend at that time towards playing more nickel defenses and also discusses the "glory of the middle linebacker." While he doesn't specifically say "middle linebacker in a 4-3" I think that this quote pretty much gives that away:

That may not work if the team doesn't have two good defensive tackles who can protect the middle linebacker from being blocked by guards or centers. Still, it's good to be a middle linebacker.

To further emphasize the point, go back to 2002 where, according to this link (http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1394954.html) by Len Pasquarelli, 10 NFL teams were going into the season with new defensive coordinators. Of the ten, how many ran a 3-4 base defense? The answer: 1. Wade Phillips in Atlanta. That's it. If nearly a full third of the league turned over their defense and a whopping ONE of them switches to the 3-4, I'd say that you can hardly call it a trend... especially given that the majority of the teams that didn't switch defensive coordinators weren't running a 3-4 either.

Compare that, now, to this link (http://msn.foxsports.com/story?contentId=2964482&print=true), written by Dan Pompeii, after the Patriots won their SECOND Super Bowl. It lists 7 teams who switched to a 3-4 defense that off-season.

And you say not only that New England didn't start the trend but that it's a stretch to even suggest it?

[broncosteven]

As for the 46 I think it could work as a part time defense for the Ravens. The reason for that is not Ray Ray so much as it is Ed Reed. Reed has proved that if given the ability to roam the field he can come up with big play after big play. Given that Mcallister and Rolle are the CB's, they can let Reed gamble while dropping their FS deep. It is somewhat risky, but will work for them. Of course the focus will all be on Ray making some extra tackles, but the real focus of this defense will be Ed Reed IMO.

Excellent post. Doug Plank is the reason it is called the 46 defense because he could come up & lay the wood. Gary Fencik owes his career to Plank, Plank freed Fencik & Wilbur Marshall up to penetrate and head hunt during 85. Ravens also have good corners that can take the Man-to-man matchup but I don't see them running it full time. they need to work in 4-3 looks & shift per Offense formation at snap. Plus where will they play "Geritol Time"? 46 = no nickel back, at least Neon Leon will be fresh for PR.

I think you can run better against a 46 than 3-4 in 3-4 less linemen are initally blocked leaving LB's & Secondary free to make a play in their space. In 46 too many bunched at line can cause problems if runner gets a seam & into secondary. In passing situations man-to-man coverage can be beaten as we all wittnessed vs Oakland & Indy, you just have to pick up the extra man.

[SoCalBronco]

Cover 2 defenses out of a 4-3 set with both CB's and LB's playing short zones was designed to counter quick WCO routes..

Probably the biggest misconception is that Cover 2 somehow beats the WCO. Nothing could be further from the truth. At Stanford and with the 49ers Walsh loved going up against the two deep zone. He dicked it to death with his X Delay and TE Delay and RB Delay Routes, the latter of which was complemented by a middle post so that it stretched the MLB in a Hi-Lo fashion because if he dropped off too deep to cut off the open middle post, the Delay would fill the vacated area over the ball and vice versa. He also made alot of use motion, specifically motion of a back past the WR to force the LBs to bump out widening the underneath windows in the zone for other routes. He also used alot of TE Option routes where hte TE would release vertical to a depth of 6-8 yards and against zones he would "hook up" away from the closest defender. The WCO also is well known for attacking the two deep with "triangles" stretching the OLBs who play the curl zone. You would have a three reciever pattern where the outside reciever ran a 12 yard curl route, the tight end ran a whip route and the back ran a swing route (release inside at a 45 degree angle to a point right over the ball at 6 yards then whipped around and if there was an open lane i.e. the defender closest to him had vacated to the flat, keep going if not sit down in the hole past the ball and before that LB's zone area, and the back running a swing to contain the flat defender who would be the corner, you have a horizontal stretch on the OLB, and one of the curl or whip would be open). WCO is an offense that works against almost any coverage, its best against man coverages but also very good against the zones, except for the zones where the defense drops 8 into coverage, which is a coverage that works against almost any offense, only problem is there is zero pass rush and the QB can just sit there and wait till the zone thins out and find a guy who maneuvered his way open. The Zone blitz is the only thing that might kill the WCO, and it might kill any offense, assuming you can predict with good certainty what the pass protection scheme will be and assuming its not maximum protection because they will bait you into throwing the hot route when you see a particular LB blitzing and you will assume its a man blitz when in reality a DL will drop right into that passing lane.

[broncosteven]

Point being that the Steelers 3-4 has always been a very good defense. The Steelers have been running it for so long that they know the exact type of defensive lineman and lineback to draft in order to be successful. Nobody throughout the years has drafted better than the Steelers when it comes to acquiring DEFENSIVE talent.


The Steelers also used the Zone blitz from 4-3 & Nickel situations which essentially turns a Dlineman into a LB in coverage (all be it, a bigger lineman) turning the 4-3 look at snap into a 3-4 when the lineman drops into coverage. It took a couple of years before others figured it out & got spread througout the league.

The Steeler's have a Defensive Master "Plan" man.

[broncosteven]

The Zone blitz is the only thing that might kill the WCO, and it might kill any offense, assuming you can predict with good certainty what the pass protection scheme will be and assuming its not maximum protection because they will bait you into throwing the hot route when you see a particular LB blitzing and you will assume its a man blitz when in reality a DL will drop right into that passing lane.

Socal I promise I didn't steal Zone blitz for my post right after yours...we must have been thinking same thing...

[labronx]

I'm not talking about getting into an argument so much as making a statement of fact that is incorrect. You said in post #1 that everyone was copying Baltimore's success with the 3-4. I disagree.

I never said a everyone, I said WE, not everyone.

Every team shows different fronts and tries to confuse the offense and create matchup problems. The Raiders officially switched to the 3-4 last year... but the year prior, they played 3-4 on approximately 20% of their defensive snaps.

Thats Understood no issue here.



No, Cincy hadn't played a 3-4 in quite some time. Remember how Takeo Spikes was making a name for himself? He wasn't in a 3-4 while he was doing it (though he's in a 3-4 now, in Buffalo, one of the first teams to copy New England)..

I never said Cincy ran it I said Baltimore prior to "the coach who left to cincy" ran the 3-4. I just couln't remember Marvin Lewis' name. I guess you misinterpreted what I said which is Prior to Marvin Lewis Balt ran the 3-4.

As far as saying that the 3-4 has been a "big part" of the AFC Central, I would say that you could say that about any division in the league. At one point in time, the 3-4 defense was the predominant defense in the NFL. Hell, the Raiders won a Super Bowl running a 3-4 defense... and, as you Bronco fans like to remind us, that was a long-a$$ time ago....

The 3-4 was and has been a bigger part of the AFC Central than it was in other divisons. pretty much other posts have echoed my sentiments.



No, San Diego has not been running it for years. They, too, were a 4-3 team for a long time. John Parrella played 8 seasons in San Diego... and the first time he played in a 3-4 was when the Raiders switched to it last year. San Diego didn't switch to a 3-4 defense until they hired Wade Phillips as their defensive coordinator, last off-season..

I remember SD used to run it back in the TD days, however, I dont know, I though they did im pretty sure they did, Ill let you have it you can come up with a Parella quote on that, but it sounds look you are right.


As far as my team jumping on the 3-4 bandwagon, you're right. They did.



No, unfortunately, they didn't. Anybody who remembers seeing Tyler Brayton lined up at outside linebacker can tell you that. Anybody that remembers Warren Sapp playing defensive end all year long can tell you that. Hell, Norv Turner and Rob Ryan have already admitted as much by saying that they're making it a point this upcoming season to mix in a little more of the 4-3 defense, especially on 3rd and long, in order to try to use Warren Sapp to his strengths.

As for whether or not they had the manpower for it... well, how many teams do have the manpower to completely switch their defensive scheme in the first year of a DC's reign? Not many. Most people will tell you (myself included) that the first year after a change in schemes more likely than not results in a dropoff because the players have to get acclimated to playing within that scheme. Also, the Raiders weren't helped by the fact that half of our freakin' linebackers were injured by game 4 of the season (after which, Tyler Brayton was moved from DE to OLB). Hell, I wish we would have scrapped the 3-4 after our linebackers went down. Believe me, I know lots of Raider fans who are still pissed that they didn't..



Who plays NT? Who teaches your players how to run it, where they need to be, and what their responsibilities are? Most importantly, you guys had one of the best run stuffing defenses in the league last year... why switch schemes?


anyways good stuff, I enjoy the talk. im tired of off topic stuff anyways.

[labronx]

I guess he has never watched a game before. You are right, every team does it. NE just has a more complex system than most others have at this point.

Are you talkin' about me never watching a game?

Big Bright Guy?

dude come on :vermeil:

[TheNextStep]

Actually, I think Big Guy was talking about yavoon and his (ridiculous) statement that New England was the only team in the league to change defensive fronts.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Are you talkin' about me never watching a game?

Big Bright Guy?

dude come on :vermeil:

No I was talking about the comments by vavoon the loon. Sorry if it looked like I was taking a shot at you. I know you have seen at least one game :).

[labronx]

Actually, I think Big Guy was talking about yavoon and his (ridiculous) statement that New England was the only team in the league to change defensive fronts.

Dude Im a little testy right as Im having not a sh*tty day at work just a I guess a frustrating day at work

LOL

[TheNextStep]

You're a little testy...

I'm a big dick...

I guess Freud was right after all... it all DOES come back to sex...

[labronx]

No I was talking about the comments by vavoon the loon. Sorry if it looked like I was taking a shot at you. I know you have seen at least one game :).


ooops

Im so so sorry

i appologize for dissing you or like Mock would say "dishing" you :loopy:

LOL

[TheReverend]

"That's what I do. I don't try to bash people and try to get to the football. I get to the running back,'' Lewis said. "No running back wants to face me in this league.''

I didnt see any sort of look of fear in the Bus last year. Maybe he was just too busy running Ray-Ray over all day...

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

ooops

Im so so sorry

i appologize for dissing you or like Mock would say "dishing" you :loopy:

LOL

No problem. Go home and play a tape of the Denver/Green Bay Super Bowl and have a couple of beers. You will be surprised how much better that makes your day.

[labronx]

You're a little testy...

I'm a big dick...

I guess Freud was right after all... it all DOES come back to sex...

Dude, Im on a call right now and I almost spit out my coffee and yes it does come back to sex!!!

LOL

[labronx]

man the last time I post an article on the ravens!

LOL

[Raider Bill]

But what has Pittsburgh won? A few years ago, the only teams in the league running the 3-4 were the Steelers and Eagles, neither of whom were winning a damned thing... and nobody else was quick to jump on that bandwagon.

New England, however, runs off 3 titles in 4 years and you see a sudden marked increase in teams running that system. There's no way in hell that everybody was copying the Ravens and I don't see how you can even argue that, considering that New England was running a 3-4 AND WINNING CHAMPIONSHIPS WITH IT back when even Baltimore was running the 4-3.


You'd have to go back to Vermiel berfore you see a 3-4 in Philadelphia.