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TheReverend
06-13-2005, 05:25 AM
Tuning up
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Phil Barber /
Posted: 15 hours ago




In the ever-more-impatient NFL, huddles are being dominated by quarterbacks barely old enough to remember the Y2K scare.
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This year, 49ers rookie Alex Smith and Bills sophomore J.P. Losman will join a group of precocious passers that includes the Steelers' Ben Roethlisberger, the Giants' Eli Manning, the Ravens' Kyle Boller and the Bengals' Carson Palmer.


But down in the dusty Southwest, a couple of old-school coaches are partying like it's 1999. That was the season Kurt Warner led the Rams to a Super Bowl championship and Drew Bledsoe threw for just shy of 4,000 yards for the Patriots.


Since then, each quarterback has ridden his share of dramatic ups and downs.


Ignoring downward trends, the Cowboys signed Bledsoe, 33, to be their starter. The Cardinals signed Warner, who will turn 34 on June 22, to compete for their job, then coach Dennis Green anointed him the starter in late May.


Now we get to find out if either of these guys still can throw and thrive. Both were displaced recently by younger athletes -- Warner by Manning in New York and Bledsoe by Losman in Buffalo.


In appraising the veterans' chances for 2005, you have to start by looking at their supporting casts. Both quarterbacks are as mobile as cacti, which means they won't be creating a lot of their own opportunities.


"Both have a tendency to hold the ball," an AFC pro personnel director says. "If they can get a line up front to protect them, they have the throwing ability to be dangerous."


Both lines were upgraded for 2005. The Cardinals signed Oliver Ross to play right tackle, and the Cowboys landed free-agent guard Marco Rivera. And both quarterbacks should have ample targets. Arizona has a talented young trio of receivers in Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald and Bryant Johnson, and Dallas has a more seasoned combination in Keyshawn Johnson and Terry Glenn. The Cowboys have an edge in the running game.


Then there are the quarterbacks themselves. Bledsoe was mediocre in Buffalo after a big 2002 debut. Warner led the Giants to a winning record through nine games last year but was sacked 24 times in his last four starts. They seem to be at similar points in their careers.


But another pro personnel director sees the two quarterbacks in different lights. He believes Bledsoe has several productive years left. "You can feel Drew," he says. "You know he can still throw the ball. You know he won't fumble it away. You have a better sense of his direction, and he is in a better environment."


In contrast, the personnel director just can't shake the memory of the game that altered Warner's career. In the Rams' 2003 season opener, he suffered a concussion, fumbled six times and more or less came unglued. Warner hasn't been the same quarterback since.


Kurt Warner hasn't been the same quarterback since taking a beating in the 2003 season opener against the Giants. (Doug Pensinger / Getty Images)



"In first grade, you probably knew some kid who peed in his clothes," the personnel man observes. "When you see him in high school, it might be years later, but you still say, 'He peed in his clothes.' In this league, once they sense what you are, they go after you."


The green flag won't come down on the 2005 season for three months, but based on the offseason moves, we can tell you which teams are getting in gear -- and which are just clogging up traffic.


FULL THROTTLE


Bears: They stood pat on defense but revamped their offense -- especially if you include the return of injured quarterback Rex Grossman. Performance should go way up at wide receiver (Muhsin Muhammad replaces David Terrell) and tackle (Fred Miller instead of Qasim Mitchell), and rookie running back Cedric Benson gives Grossman another weapon. Grade: A


Chiefs: They rode their late-season momentum (4-1 in the last five games) into the offseason, boosting their defense by signing veteran free agents (linebacker Kendrell Bell and safety Sammy Knight), trading for cornerback Patrick Surtain and defensive end Carlos Hall and drafting linebacker Derrick Johnson. The losses were minimal, even though wide receiver Johnnie Morton was released. Grade: A


Raiders: After years of claiming they were younger than people contended, the Raiders truly have traded in their motorized carts in 2005. Seven of their nine new starters likely will get their jobs through promotions. Granted, many hardly are upgrades, such as Nnamdi Asomugha for Phillip Buchanon at cornerback and Travian Smith for Napoleon Harris at inside linebacker. That hardly matters because Oakland's two major offeason acquisitions, wideout Randy Moss and running back LaMont Jordan, were whoppers. Grade: A-


Lions: If Detroit can keep its receivers healthy, it might finally be able to turn a good offseason grade into victories. Tops on the list of improvements were the signings of left guard Rick DeMulling (replaces David Loverne) and strong safety Kenoy Kennedy (for Bracy Walker). At tight end, replacing Stephen Alexander with Marcus Pollard probably is a wash. Grade: A-


Vikings: It seems absurd that a team could unload the most dominant big-play threat in the game and wind up looking astute. The Vikings didn't necessarily come out ahead in the Randy Moss trade; it was what they did afterward that made the difference. Minnesota is another team that focused on defense, adding four veteran starters: cornerback Fred Smoot, nose tackle Pat Williams, middle linebacker Sam Cowart and oldie-but-goodie free safety Darren Sharper. Grade: A-


ACCELERATING


Browns: They might be the most altered team in the league, with new coach Romeo Crennel having displaced more than half of last year's starters. On defense, the secondary now includes cornerback Gary Baxter and safeties Sean Jones and Brian Russell. On offense, Trent Dilfer takes over for human voodoo dolls Jeff Garcia and Kelly Holcomb. The biggest upgrades? Rookie Braylon Edwards for Antonio Bryant at wide receiver and free-agent pickup Joe Andruzzi for Paul Zukauskas at left guard. Grade: B+


Cardinals: Most of the new starters -- such as tight end Eric Edwards and middle linebacker Gerald Hayes -- are uninspiring, but the Cardinals now have an interesting mix of crafty new vets (quarterback Kurt Warner, free safety Robert Griffith) and rookies (running back J.J. Arrington, cornerback Antrel Rolle). It's the young guys who ultimately could make more noise. Still, signing Oliver Ross to play right tackle is the move that drives up the Cardinals' grade. Grade: B+


Chargers: Get this: The Chargers have become the NFL's most stable franchise. Two rookies, outside linebacker Shawne Merriman and lineman Luis Castillo, could take over as starters on defense -- and that's all the changes. Grade: B


Cowboys: Drew Bledsoe seems to be an aging risk at quarterback -- until you remember he's replacing Vinny Testaverde, 41. Bledsoe will have a better line than Testaverde did, thanks to the signing of Marco Rivera. Cornerback Anthony Henry and defensive tackle Jason Ferguson fill two primary needs, but the quickness of linebacker Dexter Coakley, a free-agent defector, will be missed. Grade: B


Falcons: One of 2004's surprise teams, the Falcons are showing more incremental improvement at left guard (Matt Lehr in place of Roberto Garza) and, especially, middle linebacker, where free-agent pickup Ed Hartwell is more physical than Chris Draft. Keion Carpenter is a suitable replacement for Cory Hall at strong safety. Grade: B


Plaxico Burress will provide Eli Manning with a big target.
(Jim McIsaac / Getty Images)


Giants: Kurt Warner was better than Eli Manning last season, but handing the ball to Manning in Year 2 seems like the right thing to do. Wide receiver Plaxico Burress will be a bigger target for him than Ike Hilliard, and tackle Kareem McKenzie will solidify the offensive line. On defense, the acquisition of middle linebacker Antonio Pierce balances the loss of defensive tackle Norman Hand. Grade: B


Seahawks: The Seahawks did a good job of plugging holes. Defensive end Bryce Fisher and cornerback Andre Dyson were brought through the free-agent "in" door as Chike Okeafor and Ken Lucas were leaving through the "out." The Seahawks also pounced on outside linebacker Jamie Sharper as a replacement for Chad Brown. Grade: B


CRUISE CONTROL


49ers: Alex Smith frequently will look like an overmatched rookie at quarterback, but he will be a slight improvement over Tim Rattay. Another rookie, David Baas, might have a harder time replacing Kyle Kosier at right guard. But the 49ers look better at offensive tackle (Jonas Jennings for Scott Gragg) and defensive end (Marques Douglas for John Engelberger). Grade: B-


Panthers: Health concerns have affected the Panthers more than economic issues. Defensive tackle Kris Jenkins, wide receiver Steve Smith and running back DeShaun Foster appear healthy again, but outside linebacker Mark Fields' lymphoma has recurred. The loss of wideout Muhsin Muhammad is painful but is eased somewhat by the additions of guard Mike Wahle and cornerback Ken Lucas. Grade: B-


Saints: The team made solid moves by bringing in free agents Jermane Mayberry (at right guard) and Dwight Smith (free safety), but shouldn't the league's worst defense have received more attention? Grade: B-


Bengals: The only changes are on defense. Bryan Robinson is a step up at defensive tackle, but will rookie linebacker David Pollack be more effective than Kevin Hardy? Grade: C+


Jaguars: Coach Jack Del Rio must like his young team because the Jaguars stayed pretty quiet. Free-agent defensive end Reggie Hayward should add some energy. Grade: C+


Redskins: The big news was swapping possession receivers, Laveranues Coles for Santana Moss, but we suspect they are actually the same person. Most of the improvement will come from the returns of injury casualties right tackle Jon Jansen and defensive end Phillip Daniels. But we're skeptical that middle linebacker Lemar Marshall and cornerback Walt Harris will adequately replace Antonio Pierce and Fred Smoot, both free-agent losses. Grade: C+


PARKING BRAKE ON


Broncos: The way coach Mike Shanahan plugs in running backs, you can expect Tatum Bell to match former Bronco Reuben Droughns yard for yard. Bringing back swift outside linebacker Ian Gold after lending him to the Buccaneers for a year is a boon, as is welcoming back a healthy Trevor Pryce at defensive end. Strong safety Kenoy Kennedy was a physical presence in the secondary -- his replacement is Nick Ferguson -- and brittle Courtney Brown will be hard-pressed to outdo Reggie Hayward at end. Grade: C


Patriots: Giving Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli a mediocre grade is like telling God he's doing an OK job with the oceans. Subtract the injury-related shifts (tackle Tom Ashworth and corner Tyrone Poole return; linebacker Tedi Bruschi might be out), and there isn't much to go on. Replacing Joe Andruzzi at left guard will be a challenge for rookie Logan Mankins. Grade: C


Rams: The Rams should have eight new starters, including five who are new to the roster. The changes don't appear to be sweeping, though. Free-agent additions Chris Claiborne and Dexter Coakley are expected to fill two of the linebacker spots, and coach Mike Martz is hoping rookie Alex Barron can jump in at right tackle. The team will miss end Bryce Fisher. Looks like 8-8 again, eh? Grade: C


Texans: The Texans went with youth at linebacker, letting Jay Foreman and Jamie Sharper go in favor of Antwan Peek and free-agent pickup Morlon Greenwood. Grade: C


Buccaneers: It's hard to picture a turnaround in Tampa when the big free-agent purchase was tight end Anthony Becht and a former undrafted free agent, Anthony Davis, is slated to start at left guard. The biggest loss could be right guard Cosey Coleman, who left the job to Jeb Terry. Grade: C-


Dolphins: The worst team in the AFC is in line for plenty of change, but you have to wonder what the impact will be. Rookie running back Ronnie Brown is sure to provide some spark, but quarterbacks A.J. Feeley and Gus Frerotte look a lot like Jay Fiedler. And Miami might have regressed in the secondary, with cornerback Reggie Howard and strong safety Tebucky Jones replacing Patrick Surtain and Sammy Knight. Grade: C-


Eagles: Warning: This team might suffer significant loss of viscosity if Reggie Brown has to start in place of Terrell Owens at wide receiver. Grade: C-


Jets: The Jets got younger and smaller -- and maybe worse -- at nose tackle (Lance Legree in, Jason Ferguson out) and right tackle (Adrian Jones for Kareem McKenzie). Grade: C-


Ravens: The Ravens worked hard to find a new model for each machine that drove off the lot, but they might have come up short. Yes, Derrick Mason is more productive than Travis Taylor or Kevin Johnson at receiver, but Keydrick Vincent is a notch below Bennie Anderson at right guard, and Samari Rolle is a bigger gamble at cornerback than Gary Baxter. Grade: C-


The Bills replace veteran Drew Bledsoe with inexperienced J.P. Losman at quarterback this season.
(Rick Stewart / Getty Images)


IN REVERSE


Bills: Two of the Bills' best linemen, Jonas Jennings and Pat Williams, departed, and unproven J.P. Losman is the new quarterback. Grade: D+


Colts: Is this any way to catch the Patriots? It's hard to see improvement at any position, unless rookie corner Marlin Jackson turns out to be a fast learner. The team might still re-sign middle linebacker Rob Morris, but offensive tackle Rick DeMulling, tight end Marcus Pollard and free safety Idrees Bashir are gone. Grade: D+


Packers: Brett Favre decided to limp back for another 3,000 yards, and Ahman Green still is there. But starting guards Marco Rivera and Mike Wahle were allowed to escape, and the players expected to compete for their spots (Adrian Klemm, Grey Ruegamer and Matt O'Dwyer) are unheralded. Safety Earl Little should compensate for the loss of Darren Sharper. Grade: D+


Steelers: Pitsburgh brought in only one free agent, wideout Cedrick Wilson -- and he can't imitate Plaxico Burress. Max Starks is no substitute for Oliver Ross at right tackle. Grade: D


Titans: You hate to kick a Titan when he's down, but the salary cap finally flattened these guys. Several of the players who made Tennessee a contender from 1999 to 2003 were dismissed to create cap room. And though coach Jeff Fisher typically breeds overachievers, wide receiver Tyrone Calico is no Derrick Mason, offensive tackle Jacob Bell is no Fred Miller and cornerback Andre Woolfolk is no Andre Dyson. Grade: F

-----------------

Im getting really sick of hearing "brittle" Courtney Brown.

Hercules Rockefeller
06-13-2005, 05:52 AM
So crappy teams that had to make a lot of moves to get better, got better grades? Wow, now there's a revelation. The Chargers getting a B for simply using their 2 1st round picks is a joke. Beating 1 playoff team last year, and having that game handed to them on a silver platter, is not grounds for doing jack **** during the offseason.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 05:54 AM
Oh yeah!

Florida_Bronco
06-13-2005, 08:26 AM
KC brought in a aging safety that can't cover, an oft-injured linebacker, a backup defensive end and a solid corner, throw in a rookie linebacker just for good measure.

We brought in 3 first round picks would loads of potential (Dayne, Brown and Warren). We have another 1st round pick (Ekuban) that may never be great but is a solid player that should do well coming off the bench. We also added some much needed reliable depth, mainly with Myers and Rice.

How the Chiefs are under "full throttle" and we have the parking brake on is beyond me. Whoever wrote this article just lost all credibilty with me.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 08:43 AM
KC brought in a aging safety that can't cover, an oft-injured linebacker, a backup defensive end and a solid corner, throw in a rookie linebacker just for good measure.

We brought in 3 first round picks would loads of potential (Dayne, Brown and Warren). We have another 1st round pick (Ekuban) that may never be great but is a solid player that should do well coming off the bench. We also added some much needed reliable depth, mainly with Myers and Rice.

How the Chiefs are under "full throttle" and we have the parking brake on is beyond me. Whoever wrote this article just lost all credibilty with me.

Dude, all of our players are proven (except Johnson, who's going to be the most badass linebacker that came out in years anyway). None of your players have accomplished jack ****. That's why we got an A and you got a C.

redrage
06-13-2005, 08:52 AM
KC brought in a aging safety that can't cover, an oft-injured linebacker, a backup defensive end and a solid corner, throw in a rookie linebacker just for good measure.

We brought in 3 first round picks would loads of potential (Dayne, Brown and Warren). We have another 1st round pick (Ekuban) that may never be great but is a solid player that should do well coming off the bench. We also added some much needed reliable depth, mainly with Myers and Rice.

How the Chiefs are under "full throttle" and we have the parking brake on is beyond me. Whoever wrote this article just lost all credibilty with me.
Bronco-colored glasses off. Chiefs-colored glasses on.

KC brought in a ballhawking safety, a playmaking linebacker, a speedy defensive end and an All-Pro corner, throw in the best rookie linebacker just for good measure.

We brought in 3 first round busts that have never panned out (Dayne, Brown and Warren). We have another 1st round pick (Ekuban) that will just warm the bench. We also added some much needed training camp fodder, mainly with Myers and Rice.

How the Chiefs are under "full throttle" and we have the parking brake on is pretty clear. Whoever wrote this article is one smart cookie.

Florida_Bronco
06-13-2005, 08:58 AM
Dude, all of our players are proven (except Johnson, who's going to be the most badass linebacker that came out in years anyway). None of your players have accomplished jack ****. That's why we got an A and you got a C.

That's the pot calling the kettle black :nono: If you consider Bell proven, you have to consider Brown (especially) and Warren proven. Brown is very good when healthy, and that puts him is the same boat as Bell.

Warren did his job in Cleveland, and just because it was dirty work and he didn't get a ton of sacks, people say he isn't proven. Brown has been very good when healthy, and as some have stated before, he gets hurt because he plays with intensity and gets caught in those positions.

Ekuban and Myers are proven, even though they aren't starters, and especially Myers who is a very good rotational player. Clement is a solid tackle, Rice is still effective in a reduced role and we have quite a few young guys in the secondary that we can work with.

On the other hand, Knight is basically one dimensional, Bell is good when healthy, Hall is a backup DE. In my opinion, only Surtain and possibly Johnson will have any substantial impact.

Hell, you guys could very easily experience what we had last year with Bailey. Teams may avoid Surtain and go after your other corner.

redrage
06-13-2005, 09:07 AM
I don't remember the Bengals or the Raiders avoiding Bailey.

Florida_Bronco
06-13-2005, 09:10 AM
I don't remember the Bengals or the Raiders avoiding Bailey.

You forget that the safety help over the top was not there. Denver's scheme is meant for the safetys to provide help over the top and they didn't provide.

Can't put all the blame on Champ, but he isn't free of blame either.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 09:12 AM
If you consider Bell proven, you have to consider Brown (especially) and Warren proven. Brown is very good when healthy, and that puts him is the same boat as Bell.


WRONG. Bell has done something in the NFL. The best Brown has EVER been was mediocre. He's AVERAGE when healthy. Where is the proof otherwise?

Kendrell's injuries don't come close to Brown's, either.

Warren did his job in Cleveland, and just because it was dirty work and he didn't get a ton of sacks, people say he isn't proven. Brown has been very good when healthy, and as some have stated before, he gets hurt because he plays with intensity and gets caught in those positions.

Both players played on the worst D-Line in the NFL for 3-4 years. Warren was doing his job? Is that why Cleveland kept getting gashed in run defense?

Ekuban and Myers are proven, even though they aren't starters, and especially Myers who is a very good rotational player. Clement is a solid tackle, Rice is still effective in a reduced role and we have quite a few young guys in the secondary that we can work with.

Players like Myers and Ekuban are a dime a dozen. Neither is good enough to start. You had guys like them last year.

On the other hand, Knight is basically one dimensional, Bell is good when healthy, Hall is a backup DE. In my opinion, only Surtain and possibly Johnson will have any substantial impact.

Knight is one dimensional? Is that why he's one of the best run defenders among safeties AND is one of the best at getting turnovers? He's at LEAST as good as your baby John Lynch, and he doesn't have any injury issues either.

Hell, you guys could very easily experience what we had last year with Bailey. Teams may avoid Surtain and go after your other corner.

That would be great. For the first time in several years Warfield won't be asked to cover the opposing team's no. 1 WR.

bloodsunday
06-13-2005, 09:38 AM
Dude, all of our players are proven (except Johnson, who's going to be the most badass linebacker that came out in years anyway). None of your players have accomplished jack ****. That's why we got an A and you got a C.
Actually you got an A because its one man's opinions. KC's moves are just as questionable.

It's fair to question the quality of the moves until they pan out on the field, but anyone that thinks Denver has sat around and done nothing (like San Diego) is a moron. Denver has attempted to address every situation they thought was questionable on their team, including new coaches on the d-line, in the secondary, and for the TEs. I think our new coaches at the TE and DBs may be the most underrated moves we made because people are so fixated on a minor move like signing Rice. Bringing in Stephen Alexander is another move that I think is underrated. He is the best tightend on our roster in terms of catching and blocking combined.

Darrent Williams scored on something like 30 or 40% of the plays in which he touched the ball in college. The man is dynamic with the ball. Also an underrated move.

If people would stop over analyzing Rice, Clarett and C Brown, they would see that Denver has bolstered their team.

bloodsunday
06-13-2005, 10:00 AM
That's the pot calling the kettle black :nono: If you consider Bell proven, you have to consider Brown (especially) and Warren proven. Brown is very good when healthy, and that puts him is the same boat as Bell.
Let's not forget that Bell is switching systems (from the 3 - 4) and played around some pretty talented defensive players and coaches in Pittsburgh.

Warren did his job in Cleveland, and just because it was dirty work and he didn't get a ton of sacks, people say he isn't proven. Brown has been very good when healthy, and as some have stated before, he gets hurt because he plays with intensity and gets caught in those positions.
Warren is at worst a starter for us. He had decent stats in Cleveland and played in 15 games a year (avg). That aside, he is perceived as a turd because he has underperformed relative to his draft status and because he has a big mouth. The upside of Warren in a contract year is a pretty decent bet for Denver.

In my opinion, only Surtain and possibly Johnson will have any substantial impact.
Surtain was a pretty good pickup, althought I maintain that KC overpaid. The interesting part will be to see how the contact rules impact him in a system like KC's. All the Miami DBs got away with way too much contact the past few years and the Dolphins brass was worried that the new rules would impact Surtian in particular.[/QUOTE]

Johnson is a different story. He stock has done nothing but drop during the draft process. Teams were scared away for a variety of reasons, but here is what Pete Prisco had to say (after giving them a grade of C for the pick):

"The Chiefs had to go defense, and Johnson fills that need. The problem with him is that he is a run-around defender, a guy who doesn't take on blocks. Is he tough enough to be a star in the NFL? That's the question many scouts have about Johnson."

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8400557

Disagree with Prisco as you like, but the point is that Johnson fell in the draft. Maybe those 14 teams will regret not drafting him, or maybe its because they fear he is a bust. There is some doubt there.

Florida_Bronco
06-13-2005, 10:02 AM
WRONG. Bell has done something in the NFL. The best Brown has EVER been was mediocre. He's AVERAGE when healthy. Where is the proof otherwise?

Brown has been better than medicore. I wouldn't say he's been special but he's been above average. Bell hasn't been special either. He had 1 good year and been average since. In 2001 Brown had 4.5 sacks and 21 tackles in only 4 games. He can get it done.

Both players played on the worst D-Line in the NFL for 3-4 years. Warren was doing his job? Is that why Cleveland kept getting gashed in run defense?

Prove to me that was the worst defensive line. Maybe the worst overall defense, but how can you lay all that blame on the line. The linebackers and secondary wasn't all that great either. Figure in the scheme that didn't play to Warren's strengths, that Brown has been injured alot and the team's morale was down in the cellar and that may explain it.

Players like Myers and Ekuban are a dime a dozen. Neither is good enough to start. You had guys like them last year.

Then explain to me why so many teams have trouble finding those players? Do you have any backup players that got 8 sacks last year or that can play just about any position on the D-line?

Knight is one dimensional? Is that why he's one of the best run defenders among safeties AND is one of the best at getting turnovers? He's at LEAST as good as your baby John Lynch, and he doesn't have any injury issues either.

I don't think Sammy Knight is that great of a run defender. Last year 46 of his 98 tackles were assisted. In 2 years with Miami 78 of his 194 tackles were assisted, that's a pretty high percentage that are assisted. Also, when was the last time Knight went to the Pro Bowl? Lynch was just there and didn't have any injury troubles last year, only missed 1 game. Knight is not as good as Lynch. I won't argue though that Knight is a ball hawk.

That would be great. For the first time in several years Warfield won't be asked to cover the opposing team's no. 1 WR.

Good luck with that.

bloodsunday
06-13-2005, 10:08 AM
WRONG. Bell has done something in the NFL. The best Brown has EVER been was mediocre. He's AVERAGE when healthy. Where is the proof otherwise?

Kendrell's injuries don't come close to Brown's, either.
Your right about one thing, Brown has been more injured then Bell. If Bell is such a stud, why didn't Pittsburgh want him back? I mean he came at a discount after the report that he failed the Giants physical. The guy has issues (injuries and personality). Yes he is capable of playing at a high level, but so are Warren and Brown. Bell is switching systems and will experience a decline in the talent level around him as well.

Both players played on the worst D-Line in the NFL for 3-4 years. Warren was doing his job? Is that why Cleveland kept getting gashed in run defense?
You can't dispute that Cleveland was horrible. But you also cannot dispute that there is more to it than these players. Now that these 4 are gone are they playoff contenders? Seriously. People act like these 4 were the cause of all the problems in Cleveland. That organization was (maybe still is) screwed up from top to bottom. Pretend like you have think a little more than the media trash floating around.

Players like Myers and Ekuban are a dime a dozen. Neither is good enough to start. You had guys like them last year.
About like Hall, huh? Yes they are role players, but they add depth and competition.

Knight is one dimensional? Is that why he's one of the best run defenders among safeties AND is one of the best at getting turnovers? He's at LEAST as good as your baby John Lynch, and he doesn't have any injury issues either.
Lynch made the Pro Bowl last season.


Boob, I really evaluate Denver and KC's offseasons about the same at this point. Both teams addressed their weak areas in terms of roster additions. Both teams made moves that some will call questionable. The Chiefs paid a bit higher price for their players and Denver took some gambles on retreaded players. At the end of the day its all a matter of opinion until they line up and play.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 10:14 AM
Lynch made the Pro Bowl last season.


*cough* Jerome Woods *cough*

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 10:15 AM
In 2001 Brown had 4.5 sacks and 21 tackles in only 4 games. He can get it done.

Hahahahaha! ROFL! ROFL!

Florida_Bronco
06-13-2005, 10:15 AM
Bloodsunday you hit it right on the head "At the end of the day its all a matter of opinion until they line up and play."

Florida_Bronco
06-13-2005, 10:16 AM
Hahahahaha! ROFL! ROFL!

What's funny about that, those are pretty impressive numbers for that amount of games.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 10:17 AM
What's funny about that, those are pretty impressive numbers for that amount of games.

Yeah, I hope Brown "gets it done" for you guys like that this year. ROFL!

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 10:17 AM
Bloodsunday you hit it right on the head "At the end of the day its all a matter of opinion until they line up and play."

No ****. I'm getting really tired of running around in circles with you guys.

DBroncos4life
06-13-2005, 10:18 AM
No ****. I'm getting really tired of running around in circles with you guys.


Well I hear that KC has a board now. I now its crazy but maybe you should post there for respect.

bloodsunday
06-13-2005, 10:33 AM
*cough* Jerome Woods *cough*
I knew you'd come up with something like that... So why exactly is it that Lynch's Pro Bowl nomination is a joke to you but K Bell's is gospel?

bloodsunday
06-13-2005, 10:36 AM
Well I hear that KC has a board now. I now its crazy but maybe you should post there for respect.
Exactly! If you are so tired of us, leave. The feeling is mutual you know (in case you don't check your rep).

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 10:49 AM
I knew you'd come up with something like that... So why exactly is it that Lynch's Pro Bowl nomination is a joke to you but K Bell's is gospel?

I never said one thing about Kendrell going to the pro bowl.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 10:50 AM
Exactly! If you are so tired of us, leave. The feeling is mutual you know (in case you don't check your rep).

Are you kidding? The payoff during the regular season is well worth it.

TheReverend
06-13-2005, 10:51 AM
No ****. I'm getting really tired of running around in circles with you guys.

Thats because you make NO sense. Please go to a KC site where you can all daydream that its 2003 again.

Foot2balls
06-13-2005, 10:52 AM
Thats because you make NO sense. Please go to a KC site where you can all daydream that its 2003 again.

Minister Bob, grab the pretzels and I'll meet you there.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 11:02 AM
Thats because you make NO sense. Please go to a KC site where you can all daydream that its 2003 again.

I make more sense than you, Mr. "Denver's offense is ranked higher."

GCKansas
06-13-2005, 11:18 AM
I personally think that every team in the AFC West improved themselves or at least tried. The play on the field will be the final determination. I dont' hold a lot of value in the media's take on how good this team did or not. They are just a few steps away from the average fan on picking who did well and who is going to do well. We can bicker untill the cows come home about this subject and still be wrong all the way around. So I will leave the fortune telling to others and commend all the teams that tried to meet their needs for next season which I say again, I think the AFC west teams all tried to do.

TheReverend
06-13-2005, 12:25 PM
I make more sense than you, Mr. "Denver's offense is ranked higher."

I was the first to admit that I was wrong. Had I thought it through before I said it, I wouldnt have said it. Had you thought through what you say before you say it, youd never open your stupid ****ing mouth.

I maintain my theory: youre a ****ing idiot.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 12:34 PM
I was the first to admit that I was wrong. Had I thought it through before I said it, I wouldnt have said it. Had you thought through what you say before you say it, youd never open your stupid ****ing mouth.

I maintain my theory: youre a ****ing idiot.

All of my opinions have facts backing them up. You just don't like anything that's positive towards KC.

TheReverend
06-13-2005, 12:51 PM
Brown is a bust but Bell is a stud? What facts support that statement?

My theory remains intact.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 01:00 PM
Brown is a bust but Bell is a stud? What facts support that statement?

My theory remains intact.

I never said Bell was a stud. I said he's actually proven something in this league. The only thing that Courtney Brown has proven is that he's a poor man's Vonnie Holliday.

Mediator12
06-13-2005, 01:05 PM
All of my opinions have facts backing them up. You just don't like anything that's positive towards KC.

Oh, like Gunther was going to do anything with those pathetic defensive players Bob? Read the truth on Gunther!

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 01:19 PM
Oh, like Gunther was going to do anything with those pathetic defensive players Bob? Read the truth on Gunther!

Heh. My opinions THIS offseason. Last year was admittedly nonstop homer tripe from Bob.

rbackfactory80
06-13-2005, 01:31 PM
I don't remember the Bengals or the Raiders avoiding Bailey.

When you have one of the best wideouts in the league, Chad Johnson, you will get him the ball no matter who is covering him. Get real

rbackfactory80
06-13-2005, 01:32 PM
I never said Bell was a stud. I said he's actually proven something in this league. The only thing that Courtney Brown has proven is that he's a poor man's Vonnie Holliday.

If he were a poor mans Vonnie Holliday he would be dead.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-13-2005, 01:33 PM
If he were a poor mans Vonnie Holliday he would be dead.

ROFL!

rbackfactory80
06-13-2005, 01:34 PM
All of my opinions have facts backing them up. You just don't like anything that's positive towards KC.

The only thing going for KC is they have tony Gonzales, good rb's and a line that can do a good job for about 1 more year. Otherwise they are a poor mans Arizona Cardinals.

Ballhawk
06-13-2005, 01:35 PM
So crappy teams that had to make a lot of moves to get better, got better grades? Wow, now there's a revelation. The Chargers getting a B for simply using their 2 1st round picks is a joke. Beating 1 playoff team last year, and having that game handed to them on a silver platter, is not grounds for doing jack **** during the offseason.

This about sums up my feelings on all the offseason grading. Lets just forget the fact that we are returning every starter on O except for RD and Neil.

In one breath it is great that we get Trevor back (who will be at DE) but it is Brown that will replace Reggie ??? Outside of that it is only Kennedy that will need to be replaced and I am hoping that replacement will be Lynch and one of the younger guys can show enough cover skills to give us a true FS.

Lastly Im sure that if we had used our number one pick our "offseason" grade would be higher, although everyone feels we took the skins for a ride on that trade.

Florida_Bronco
06-14-2005, 08:46 AM
I never said Bell was a stud. I said he's actually proven something in this league. The only thing that Courtney Brown has proven is that he's a poor man's Vonnie Holliday.

How do you figure he's a poor man's Vonnie Holliday when Courtney Brown was the 1st overall pick? ??? Maybe it should be the other way around?

Again, you make no sense.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-14-2005, 09:05 AM
How do you figure he's a poor man's Vonnie Holliday when Courtney Brown was the 1st overall pick? ??? Maybe it should be the other way around?

Again, you make no sense.

It makes complete sense. Where they were drafted has absolutely no bearing.

Courtney Brown is an oft injured defensive end that when healthy is average at best.

Vonnie Holliday is an oft injured defensive end that when healthy is average at best. The only advantage he has over CB is that he's injured LESS.