Pat Saunders says 8-8/9-7 this year

[SoCalBronco]

It's anyone's guess about Super Bowl XL
By Patrick Saunders
Denver Post Staff Writer



'Tis the season for prognostications.

Take a trip to the local newsstand and there they are: bold, glossy, eye-catching NFL preview magazines. Jake Plummer and Champ Bailey grace the local covers.

Just as People and Us promise all the gossip on Brad and Angelina, the NFL preview magazines vow to tell you everything you need to know about the 2005 season.

Even red-faced 49ers fans might be titillated to take a peek at what the so-called experts are saying about their team.

Let's take a quick stroll through this year's early predictions:

* Sporting News: Dan Pompei is picking the Eagles to beat the Colts in Super Bowl XL. As for the Broncos, Pompei picks them to finish third in the AFC West with an 8-8 record, behind the Chiefs (11-5) and Chargers (9-7).

Now, before you get the idea Pompei is a Broncos-hater, keep in mind last year he picked the Broncos to beat Seattle in Super Bowl XXXIX.

* Pro Football Weekly: Another vote for the Eagles to win it all. PFW also picks the Colts to be the AFC champion. Last year, PFW picked the Colts to beat the Eagles.

Your Broncos? Try 9-7 and a third-place finish in the AFC West behind San Diego (10-6) and Kansas City (9-7).

* Street & Smith's: Legend has it American Football League general managers used Street & Smith's as a guide for the league's first draft in 1959. In other words, S&S has been doing this for a while. Last year, their reporters got it right, picking the Patriots over the Eagles. This year, Street & Smith's is taking the Eagles over the Colts.

The good news for Broncos fans is S&S has Denver winning the AFC West then beating the Jets in the wild-card game.

The bad news? The magazine predicts the Colts will beat the Broncos in the divisional playoff game. That would mean a third consecutive playoff loss in Indianapolis.

* Athlon Sports: Its champion is - drumroll please - the Baltimore Ravens, over the Eagles.

Now there's an interesting pick. Athlon has the Broncos finishing second in the West to the Chargers. cq

In a section called "2004 Revisited," the magazine looks back on what it wrote last year.

The Prophecy: "If the Broncos have a few players step up at running back, wide receiver and offensive tackle, there's little doubt this is a playoff team."

Denver finished 10-6 and made the playoffs as a wild-card team.

The Lie: "The Broncos finished near the bottom of the league last year with only nine interceptions. That may change with the addition of Champ Bailey and the decision to make the defensive




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backs go through offensive drills."
The Broncos finished the 2004 season with 12 interceptions. Only five teams had fewer. cq

* Lindy's: This magazine touts itself as "America's leading football authority." It also has a sexy swimsuit model on its cover, leading the reader inside to a seven-page, full-color spread on NFL cheerleaders. Kind of makes your wife wonder why you're buying the magazine.

Anyway, Lindy's picks the Broncos to win the AFC West, with San Diego and Kansas City grabbing the wild-card spots.

Lindy's has Atlanta beating Detroit - yes, Detroit - in the NFC title game. It has the Patriots beating the Colts for the AFC title.

Lindy's Super Bowl XL champion? The Patriots, making them the first team to win three consecutive Super Bowls. cq

* Sports Illustrated: SI won't make its predictions until shortly before the season opens.

Last year, SI picked the Patriots to beat the Seahawks in Super Bowl XXXIX.

SI senior writer and HBO guru Peter King picked the Rams to beat the Bills. He also picked Plummer as his preseason MVP. Of course, that was before a guy named Peyton Manning threw for 4,557 yards, 49 touchdowns and posted a passer rating of 121.1.

* Patrick Saunders: In the interest of full disclosure, I should include the predictions I made for my annual Broncos preview in the Sporting News.

In 2003, I wrote: "Make it 10-6 and an early playoff exit." I was right on the money.

Last year, I wrote: "The Broncos haven't won a playoff game since Terrell Davis and John Elway led them to their second consecutive Super Bowl victory six seasons ago. That slump will end this season." Oops!

This year, I wrote: "The feeling here is that Denver has too many holes to patch, and it likely will be an 8-8 or 9-7 team. That will leave Mike Shanahan a lot of explaining to do to Broncos fans and team owner Pat Bowlen."

Patrick Saunders can be reached at 303-820-5459 or psaunders@denverpost.com.


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I think he is right but i dont think it will be on Shanny so much as the schedule. There just isnt too much more than 9 wins there any way you slice it unless we get several breakout years.

[TheReverend]

Thanks for posting a great article. I stand by my 13-3 prediction... all we need is a healthy Pryce and Brown

[SoCalBronco]

Thanks for posting a great article. I stand by my 13-3 prediction... all we need is a healthy Pryce and Brown

I would agree with your prediction if all of the following happens:
1. Watts breaks out
2. Putz breaks out
3. Whoever is at RG is at least solid
4. On the DL, there are 2 studs
5. DJ is just as effective if not more
6. Walls stays healthy the whole season
7. Special Teams additions pan out
8. Plummer looks like the 2003 version

[Hercules Rockefeller]

This year, I wrote: "The feeling here is that Denver has too many holes to patch, and it likely will be an 8-8 or 9-7 team. That will leave Mike Shanahan a lot of explaining to do to Broncos fans and team owner Pat Bowlen."

Patrick Saunders can be reached at 303-820-5459 or psaunders@denverpost.com.


So what holes weren't present last year that made you predict they'll go 10-6 versus what new holes do they have this season Patrick?

[NFLBRONCO]

Thanks for posting a great article. I stand by my 13-3 prediction... all we need is a healthy Pryce and Brown

This is a great prediction for a team that has trouble beating good teams. 3 loses is a huge task with 05 opponents we play this year.

[-Slap-]

I would agree with your prediction if all of the following happens:
1. Watts breaks out
2. Putz breaks out
3. Whoever is at RG is at least solid
4. On the DL, there are 2 studs
5. DJ is just as effective if not more
6. Walls stays healthy the whole season
7. Special Teams additions pan out
8. Plummer looks like the 2003 version

We're going to need rapid development from Bell or Clarett, too.

[ZachKC]

So what holes weren't present last year that made you predict they'll go 10-6 versus what new holes do they have this season Patrick?
I would say more so some things that you guys thought were not going to be holes turned out to be holes last year and you are walking into this season with basically the same ones...JMO though.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Thanks for posting a great article. I stand by my 13-3 prediction... all we need is a healthy Pryce and Brown

Two broken down defensive ends are all you need?

[FADERPROOF]

I would agree with your prediction if all of the following happens:
1. Watts breaks out
2. Putz breaks out
3. Whoever is at RG is at least solid
4. On the DL, there are 2 studs
5. DJ is just as effective if not more
6. Walls stays healthy the whole season
7. Special Teams additions pan out
8. Plummer looks like the 2003 version

9.) Trade for Mike Doss

[SoCalBronco]

9.) Trade for Mike Doss

id be willing to give up a 3rd for him. That would be solid.

[FADERPROOF]

id be willing to give up a 3rd for him. That would be solid.

3rd would be a nice price for him.

[ZachKC]

id be willing to give up a 3rd for him. That would be solid.
Really? I think that would be a bit much for Doss. I don't know maybe not...

It would be hard to pull the trigger on that.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I would say more so some things that you guys thought were not going to be holes turned out to be holes last year and you are walking into this season with basically the same ones...JMO though.

and yet they were 10-6 with those holes

[FADERPROOF]

Really? I think that would be a bit much for Doss. I don't know maybe not...

It would be hard to pull the trigger on that.

Well, Doss is a 2nd round pick and is only in his 3rd year, I doubt the Colts are willing to take a 2nd day pick for him.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I would agree with your prediction if all of the following happens:
1. Watts breaks out
2. Putz breaks out
3. Whoever is at RG is at least solid
4. On the DL, there are 2 studs
5. DJ is just as effective if not more
6. Walls stays healthy the whole season
7. Special Teams additions pan out
8. Plummer looks like the 2003 version

Denver goes 16-0 if all of the following happen.

All these lists that are 6+ items deep that people are making where everything has to pan out for Denver to go to 12 or 13 wins are just not realistic. Denver was two plays from 12 wins last year.

1 stud on the DL + a healthy Pryce, and improved redzone play is going to equal 11-12 wins.

[watermock]

This year, I wrote: "The feeling here is that Denver has too many holes to patch, and it likely will be an 8-8 or 9-7 team. That will leave Mike Shanahan a lot of explaining to do to Broncos fans and team owner Pat Bowlen."

This is such an idiotic statement it's pathetic.

What holes? Did we lose our QB, or our RB, or any of our WR's? Maybe our kicker left...we have a vastly superior punter, and added a supposedly nifty punt returner. We added three first round draft picks on the DL, three former OL starters...Pryce is coming back...signed Gold to supposedly make a dominant LB corp.

Out of 17 DL, Denver is going to find 10, Pryce or no Pryce, C Brown or no C Brown, there is incredible depth on the DL, the best I've ever seen.

Losing Johnson, Kennedy, Hayward made holes? Our secondary is green, but losing a Safety that was terrible in coverage and was prone to getting fined isn't exactly leaving a gaping hole, he was terribly overpaid. If losing Johnson on the DL is such a big deal, why is he still on the open market. Worrying about Hayward is just plain silly when we have 7 players back, Pryce, the Browncos, Luther and Davis off IR.

So we get 7 players from trade or off IR, and we have a hole? We add a LB? We get both Anderson and Q plus draft Clarett?

Add a punter and punt returner and possibly a KO specialist? Did Kannell or Mauk die or become injured? Has Jake's couch attacked him again? Is Rod Smith injured? Did Lelie suddenly get old? Has Watts gone back to Junior High? Smith is old, but perfectly healthy, Lelie is just getting into his prime and Watts can only improve. Carswell, while a grizzled vet, is perfectly healthy.

I love it when these idiots make an assertion, and can't even back it up with one sentence.

Our entire OL is back sans Neil, who was broken down. Even there, all our starters are back and healthy.

Putz is still developing, and back, and we added Alexander at TE as well, who is no slouch if healthy.

If anything, Denver has filled glaring holes in punting, return man, and we got a few veterans to fill the interior line for depth.

Our secondary isn't thin, it's just green. We have 3 starting RB's plus Clarett, we have an adequate FB in Johnson.

This moron should be more worried about having to play BOTH SuperBowl teams, along with our nemisis, the Ravens at home, along with our usual division rivals.

Our schedule is rougher.

I keep telling you people that Moss has a chronic bad foot. He only played in 7 games last year, and Minnesota sold Greasy Al a bill of goods and a headache. Moss will tenderfoot it for awhile, but will break down. Trust Me, his foot is why he was traded.

Did Kansas City suddenly get younger with Sammy Knight and a broken down Kendrell Bell? Bell isn't any better bet than C. Brown, maybe worse. Did Oakland suddenly discover a defense? Can Shottie ever win a playoff game? What did San Diego do to improve other than pay Brees too much money? :wave:

Yes, we are a motley crue, but to say we have too many holes to fill is totally ludicrous. Virtually the whole team is back, and we have a flock of new players to compete for backup spots.

I am just incredulous someone actually paid to write this tripe can't manage one sentence to back up his assertion.

It's one thing to ramble on a message board, but a paid writer should bring just a little more to the table. I can't wait to see what revelations Burger Bill comes up with next...

[DBroncos4life]

Two broken down defensive ends are all you need?



I want to know how you KNOW that they won't be 100% or close to it, but you can tell us that Bell will be 100% and both Shields and Roaf will be just fine.


Look a KC fan Hoping and Wishing that Pryce and Brown are not healthy!!!

[Ballhawk]

I would agree with your prediction if all of the following happens:
1. Watts breaks out
2. Putz breaks out
3. Whoever is at RG is at least solid
4. On the DL, there are 2 studs
5. DJ is just as effective if not more
6. Walls stays healthy the whole season
7. Special Teams additions pan out
8. Plummer looks like the 2003 version

Just these two would give us a shot at 13-3

[watermock]

Pryce says he's ready to go. Brown is running and on schedule. We can use other players if either isn't healthy. Even Dorsett Davis, who they said had broken out before he almost tore off a finger, is back.

Our DL is rediculously deep.

Denver's problem isn't holes, it's we don't have alot of true star players evident.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Here's what I think needs to happen:

1. Offense has to be #1 in Total and Scoring
2. Defense has to be #1 in Total and Scoring
3. Pryce must break Strahan's single season sack record
4. Plummer must have 20+ TDs at a 2 to 2.5/1 TD/Int ratio
5. Bell must go over 2k
6. Ashley has to score 15 TDs and push 1500 yds receiving
7. DJ must become Ray Lewis
8. Al must become Ray Lewis
9. Champ can't have a pass completed on him the entire season
10. The OL must look like it did in '97 and '98
11. Sauerbrun must have the greatest season for a punter ever.
12. Elam can't miss a single FG

If all those things occur, I think there's a chance Denver can get to 8-8. If just one doesn't happen, they're looking at 4-5 wins tops.

During the season, it's whining about how Denver is very talented but plays down to their competition and gives games away. In the off-season, Denver has no talent and everything has to fall into place perfectly just to come close to what they were at last season. That's from both posters and the local beat writers, columnists, and on-air people.

[TheReverend]

I would agree with your prediction if all of the following happens:
1. Watts breaks out
2. Putz breaks out
3. Whoever is at RG is at least solid
4. On the DL, there are 2 studs
5. DJ is just as effective if not more
6. Walls stays healthy the whole season
7. Special Teams additions pan out
8. Plummer looks like the 2003 version

1. OR Ashley grows in intermediate routes
2. He did last year. Now he needs a mild progression and to play at that level all year.
3. Done. Cooper was solid. Not fantastic but solid.
4. Pryce and Brown... Brown WILL be healthy and phenomenal. Thats my guarantee. Ellis and Warren are here also.
5. He'll be at LEAST as effective. Yes he has to learn a new pos. but hes already adjusted to the speed of the NFL. hell fine at sam.
6. We drafted 3 corners. If walls goes down then my man, Big Willie Style, will get even more of an opportunity to dominate.
7. We know Sauerbrun will deliver. Hopefully Darrent can run in the pros.
8. I fully expect us to go back to selling the run and dominating with play action. Were deeper at reciever than ever now though... Jerry rice is #4... what does that say?

PS. GREAT post mock. Rep.

[Northman]

ive said we will go 9-7 from the start and although im hoping for the better ive got to stay realistic at this point. until the ( brownies ) prove otherwise i cant see us going any higher with the schedule and unproven players we have right now.

[ZachKC]

and yet they were 10-6 with those holes
Heh, if you were happy with last year's season than more power to you.

[Kaylore]

I would agree with your prediction if all of the following happens:
1. Watts breaks out
2. Putz breaks out
3. Whoever is at RG is at least solid
4. On the DL, there are 2 studs
5. DJ is just as effective if not more
6. Walls stays healthy the whole season
7. Special Teams additions pan out
8. Plummer looks like the 2003 version

1. Honestly I don't think this is critical to us winning. I will say I think he'll be much improved and the rules are in his favor.

2. This is one of the critical areas I agree with you. Putz, or whoever is playing TE, needs to make our redzone better.

3. Average would be enough at RG, given that Dan Neil was below average and we did ok at times.

4. One stud and three solids will be enough to make things happen up front. I think we'll see that.

5. DJ will do very well. He's someone I know is lock at being successful because his work ethic and athleticism proves it.

6. This is one that is critical. Walls needs to stay, otherwise the new rule-calling will screw us.

7. Better special teams should be a lock this year. Between Sauerbrun and a legit, fast return man, we should be at least average which is more than enough for me.

8. This is critical, and I think better protection this year should help this enormously. If he doesn't shine this year, we should look elsewhere...like our top five pick.

[ZachKC]

Orange Mane - The Land Of The "Ifs"

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I want to know how you KNOW that they won't be 100% or close to it, but you can tell us that Bell will be 100% and both Shields and Roaf will be just fine.


Look a KC fan Hoping and Wishing that Pryce and Brown are not healthy!!!

Roaf and Shields haven't missed a game since they've been Kansas City Chiefs.

As for Bell, yeah he's had some injuries, but nothing like Brown. Brown is a joke. Even when healthy, he's no better than our Eric Hicks.

[HEAV]

So many "Ifs and maybes" on this roster. Scares me to think the line is one serious injury away from falling apart. I hate having to hope for a good year from the D-line, rather than expecting a good year from the D-line. If Brown can play, if Pryce is healthy and maybe Myers and Eckuban can contribute.

I want to see Champ step it up in the big games and against the true #1 receivers in the league, Randy will be a true test for him. I also worry about the musical chairs at the LB spot. I've never seen DJ play the strong side backer, I hop they aren't screwing with his career. Can Walls stay on the field and be productive, can Middlebust or one of the rookies be the third corner?

Jake will be Jake. It's if Rod can maintain his level of play at his age and can Ash finally be a complete wide out and more than just a deep route runner. Can Watts catch, or will the 3rd spot be a 42 year old man with great hand and slow feet.

Can Bell be an every down back and play a full season?


It's to early to throw out numbers, my opinion only, so I'll wait till the second or third preseason game to get a feel of how things look.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I want to see Champ step it up in the big games and against the true #1 receivers in the league

And maybe he can do better against Eddie Kennison, too. ROFL!

[FADERPROOF]

Orange Mane - The Land Of The "Ifs"

Would you really like to admit that the Chifs don't have any "Ifs?"

Didn't think so.

[BroncoInferno]

I think he is right but i dont think it will be on Shanny so much as the schedule. There just isnt too much more than 9 wins there any way you slice it unless we get several breakout years.

SoCal, I just don't think anyone can say with any certainty how tough our schedule will be. Every year there are many surprises, with teams you expected to be good falling off, and a surprise team being better than expected. I think some of those games that look tough now might not look as tough when it's actually time to suit up.

I think we've improved. Even if you don't agree that we improved the defensive line, we clearly improved special teams, which cost us at least two games last season. The return of Gold and Burns will help big time on coverages, Sauerbrun is one of the best punters in the league, and Darrent Williams couldn't possibly worsen our situation from last season at PR/KR, and has the potential to be special. An improved ST situation could be worth two games alone, even with no improvements anywhere else.

[watermock]

I would guess it's mostly speculation at this point.

It's just amusing that Saunders says there are holes, when the whole team is essentially intact, as much or more than any other team.

Let's go thru this again. QB back. RB's back, have a second year possible star, two injured RB's back, drafted a potential star.

WR's. All are back, added Rice, re-signed Putz and signed Alexander.

OL, basically whole line is back and added some depth.

DL, Choose your partner, that's a barn dance, but I like our chances tonight.

LB, It's certainly above average. There is some notorious Gold bashings, but It should be above average IMO.

Special teams were propped up with a new proven punter and a Dante Hall clone.

So where are the holes? I only see weakness in the secondary, but Champ is on one side, and Walls is going to be back. It wasn't his knee, and we drafted at that spot.

[NFLBRONCO]

I think the schedule is tough this year. Difference I think we play alot of teams with solid coaching staffs to match Shanny.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I still see holes in your interior line.

I still see holes in your entire defensive line.

I see a hole at safety and nickel back.

And finally, I see a giant, gaping hole at quarterback.

[DBroncos4life]

I still see holes in your interior line.

I still see holes in your entire defensive line.

I see a hole at safety and nickel back.

And finally, I see a giant, gaping hole at quarterback.



That giant hole at QB has two straight trips to the playoffs, how about Green?

[TheReverend]

I still see holes in your interior line.

I still see holes in your entire defensive line.

I see a hole at safety and nickel back.

And finally, I see a giant, gaping hole at quarterback.

I see holes in your ENTIRE team except TE. I maintain my theory: you're an idiot.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

That giant hole at QB has two straight trips to the playoffs, how about Green?

Green lacks a defense. We've been over this before.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I see holes in your ENTIRE team except TE. I maintain my theory: you're an idiot.

LOL!

I'm the idiot? You're the idiot, my friend. The idiot who thought Denver's offense was ranked higher than KC's.

Holes in the offense besides TE? Are you KIDDING? You're talking about the NUMBER ONE offense in the league. And it has holes? Ha!

[DBroncos4life]

Green lacks a defense. We've been over this before.


Really when you go 13-3 with no D I don't think that was the problem, NEXT.

[Rocket 7]

I still see holes in your interior line.

I still see holes in your entire defensive line.

I see a hole at safety and nickel back.

And finally, I see a giant, gaping hole at quarterback.
The only hole I see is you. As in ass

[TheReverend]

LOL!

I'm the idiot? You're the idiot, my friend. The idiot who thought Denver's offense was ranked higher than KC's.

Holes in the offense besides TE? Are you KIDDING? You're talking about the NUMBER ONE offense in the league. And it has holes? Ha!

Your offensive line probably will not be the same that played last year. Your system backs will still perform though. No WRs.

Cant say anything good about your D either.

Gonzo is great though.

Youre still an idiot

[watermock]

We have 17 DL. The problem is going to be sorting thru all of them, and hoping the castoffs don't outperform the clodhoppers you will sign off our waiver wire.

How do we have holes in our interior line? Everyone is back all along the line, and we signed some veteran starters for depth. Neil was done well before the season was over. We don't have a single injury along the line. Your a certified idiot.

Fergy outplayed Kennedy every time. Both Herndon and Kennedy were completely overpaid in free agency, and we drafted another 4 corners, have Bailey, and altho it's a concern because there are alot of green DB's, you can't say it's a "hole" in the team whatsoever.

Our gaping "hole" at QB threw for 4000 yards last year. The glaring hole is that idiot pubiak, who can't call plays worth a damn in the red zone.

[Rock Chalk]

Here's what I think needs to happen:

1. Offense has to be #1 in Total and Scoring
2. Defense has to be #1 in Total and Scoring
3. Pryce must break Strahan's single season sack record
4. Plummer must have 20+ TDs at a 2 to 2.5/1 TD/Int ratio
5. Bell must go over 2k
6. Ashley has to score 15 TDs and push 1500 yds receiving
7. DJ must become Ray Lewis
8. Al must become Ray Lewis
9. Champ can't have a pass completed on him the entire season
10. The OL must look like it did in '97 and '98
11. Sauerbrun must have the greatest season for a punter ever.
12. Elam can't miss a single FG

If all those things occur, I think there's a chance Denver can get to 8-8. If just one doesn't happen, they're looking at 4-5 wins tops.

During the season, it's whining about how Denver is very talented but plays down to their competition and gives games away. In the off-season, Denver has no talent and everything has to fall into place perfectly just to come close to what they were at last season. That's from both posters and the local beat writers, columnists, and on-air people.


Sadly, the powers that be will not let me rep you so many times in one thread without repping a whole slew of worthless posts just to rep you again.

[NFLBRONCO]

Here's what I think needs to happen:

1. Offense has to be #1 in Total and Scoring
2. Defense has to be #1 in Total and Scoring
3. Pryce must break Strahan's single season sack record
4. Plummer must have 20+ TDs at a 2 to 2.5/1 TD/Int ratio
5. Bell must go over 2k
6. Ashley has to score 15 TDs and push 1500 yds receiving
7. DJ must become Ray Lewis
8. Al must become Ray Lewis
9. Champ can't have a pass completed on him the entire season
10. The OL must look like it did in '97 and '98
11. Sauerbrun must have the greatest season for a punter ever.
12. Elam can't miss a single FG

If all those things occur, I think there's a chance Denver can get to 8-8. If just one doesn't happen, they're looking at 4-5 wins tops.

During the season, it's whining about how Denver is very talented but plays down to their competition and gives games away. In the off-season, Denver has no talent and everything has to fall into place perfectly just to come close to what they were at last season. That's from both posters and the local beat writers, columnists, and on-air people.


REP Nice Job

I'm thinking 8-8

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Your offensive line probably will not be the same that played last year. Your system backs will still perform though. No WRs.

Cant say anything good about your D either.

Gonzo is great though.

Youre still an idiot

Nothing good? We revamped half the freakin D, moron.

No WRs? Kennison had 1,086 yards and 8 TD in 14 games last year.

Offensive line won't be the same? You're right there. With Welbourn's ass on the bench it will be better.

System backs? You really are retarded.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Our gaping "hole" at QB threw for 4000 yards last year.

And twenty god damned interceptions. And pooped his pants in the playoffs.

Everyone was racking up yards last year due to the new rule.

[FADERPROOF]

Nothing good? We revamped half the freakin D, moron.

No WRs? Kennison had 1,086 yards and 8 TD in 14 games last year.

Offensive line won't be the same? You're right there. With Welbourn's ass on the bench it will be better.

System backs? You really are retarded.

Kennison is so great that you guys are entertaining Freddie Mitchell, try again.

Kennison, Parker, and Mitchell, really puts fear in teams right there ::)

OH I forgot about big bad Boerigter.

[FADERPROOF]

And twenty god damned interceptions. And pooped his pants in the playoffs.

Everyone was racking up yards last year due to the new rule.

He had jsut as many turnovers and your QB.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

He had jsut as many turnovers and your QB.

Our QB led the league's best offense and one of the top passing games. Yours shat his pants so bad down the stretch your D had to bail you out to get into the playoffs...and even then you needed a charity win from the Colts.

[FADERPROOF]

Our QB led the league's best offense and one of the top passing games. Yours shat his pants so bad down the stretch your D had to bail you out to get into the playoffs...and even then you needed a charity win from the Colts.

How'd your QB and #1 offense do down the stretch and in the playoffs?

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Kennison is so great that you guys are entertaining Freddie Mitchell, try again.

Kennison, Parker, and Mitchell, really puts fear in teams right there ::)

OH I forgot about big bad Boerigter.

Guess what? It really doesn't matter. We'll be one of the most bad-assed passing teams in the league again. What does it take to get this fact through your head? WE ARE AN ELITE PASSING TEAM AND HAVE BEEN FOR THREE YEARS.

Keep laughing at out WRs, they will keep burning your ass.

[FADERPROOF]

Guess what? It really doesn't matter. We'll be one of the most bad-assed passing teams in the league again. What does it take to get this fact through your head? WE ARE AN ELITE PASSING TEAM AND HAVE BEEN FOR THREE YEARS.

Keep laughing at out WRs, they will keep burning your ass.

Congrats on the elite passing game and 0 playoff wins.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

How'd your QB and #1 offense do down the stretch and in the playoffs?

DEFENSE, YOU MORON.

GOD DAMMIT! You ****ing Bronco fans are like a broken record.

What are you going to say when our D improves this year and we turn your team into glue?

[FADERPROOF]

DEFENSE, YOU MORON.

GOD DAMMIT! You ****ing Bronco fans are like a broken record.

What are you going to say when our D improves this year and we turn your team into glue?

So Indy didn't make the playoffs last year, because they have a ****ty defense also right?

Your D can improve, there's only one way to go with your D and that's up, but it won't be enough of an improvement.

[DBroncos4life]

DEFENSE, YOU MORON.

GOD DAMMIT! You ****ing Bronco fans are like a broken record.

What are you going to say when our D improves this year and we turn your team into glue?



What are you going to say when your old O falls apart and turns into doo doo?

[DBroncos4life]

13 and 3 with no D to 7-9. Yep its ALL the D!!!

[FADERPROOF]

13 and 3 with no D to 7-9. Yep its ALL the D!!!

13-3 with Greg Robinson

7-9 with Gunther

[DBroncos4life]

13-3 with Greg Robinson

7-9 with Gunther



Yep I guess Gunther The Great isn't that great. Funny that he NEEDS superstars to make the D good but Robinson made SCRUBs into probowl players.

[Rocket 7]

DEFENSE, YOU MORON.

GOD DAMMIT! You ****ing Bronco fans are like a broken record.

What are you going to say when our D improves this year and we turn your team into glue?
Into glue? Probably "stick" to the same ol excuces. Our O is great. As for our D it's gonna be bottom five. 38 to 35 Chiefs lost again.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

So Indy didn't make the playoffs last year, because they have a ****ty defense also right?

Your D can improve, there's only one way to go with your D and that's up, but it won't be enough of an improvement.

Indy's D forced a bunch of turnovers. We didn't. Gee, didn't our ****ty D force alot of turnovers the year we went 13-3? Funny how that works.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

What are you going to say when your old O falls apart and turns into doo doo?

Won't happen this year. It probably won't happen at all. The players will just retire.

[FADERPROOF]

Indy's D forced a bunch of turnovers. We didn't. Gee, didn't our ****ty D force alot of turnovers the year we went 13-3? Funny how that works.

So now it's a turnover thing?

You keep waffling on this subject, please come back and write something when you fully believe in what you say.

[TheReverend]

Nothing good? We revamped half the freakin D, moron.

No WRs? Kennison had 1,086 yards and 8 TD in 14 games last year.

Offensive line won't be the same? You're right there. With Welbourn's ass on the bench it will be better.

System backs? You really are retarded.

Revamped half the D? Taking two dolphins DBs, a broke ass LB, and drafting a LB that was falling faster than Pauly Shore in the 90s dont count as a revamping.

PS. no one likes you here.

PPS. go do another Darth Vader interview... geek.

[Mediator12]

And twenty god damned interceptions. And pooped his pants in the playoffs.

Everyone was racking up yards last year due to the new rule.

Hey hopeful Bob, Trent Green had just as many TO's as Jake last year. All this while Trent was no longer in Kansas City during January.

If you are not concerned with the age of your OL and the increased potential for injury there destroying the Only elite part of your whole team except Gonzalez, then you really are here just to be contrary.

BTW, Gunther took last years defense and made them even worse than Greg Robinson did. Less TO's, worse third down Percentage, worse yds per drive. But all those stellar FA additions are going to bring Gunther back to respectable right?

I can not wait to see Derrick Johnson get his ass handed to him in a NFL game. Just wait till he gets cut blocked trying to get to the backfield. He will cry more than Ray lewis did on Monday night last year.

[elsid13]

Roaf and Shields haven't missed a game since they've been Kansas City Chiefs.

As for Bell, yeah he's had some injuries, but nothing like Brown. Brown is a joke. Even when healthy, he's no better than our Eric Hicks.


Bell been healthy only one year in the league, his rookie. He is no better then Brown in that regard

[TheReverend]

Remember that one article on Gunther Cunningham where they kept saying "Gunther swallows" hahahahahaha. My feelings exactly.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

So now it's a turnover thing?

You keep waffling on this subject, please come back and write something when you fully believe in what you say.

Turnovers are a part of defense.

If the 2004 Chiefs had recorded 30+ turnovers we'd have been playoff bound.

[TheReverend]

Turnovers are a part of defense.

If the 2004 Chiefs had recorded 30+ turnovers we'd have been playoff bound.

If the 2004 Broncos had recorded 30+ turnovers we'd have won the ****ing superbowl.

I maintain my theory:youre a ****ing idiot.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

If the 2004 Broncos had recorded 30+ turnovers we'd have won the ****ing superbowl.

I maintain my theory:youre a ****ing idiot.

Dude, forcing turnovers are part of a good defense. The CLEAR difference between the 2003 Chiefs defense and the 2004 defense was turnovers.

Are you having trouble understanding?

[TheReverend]

IF's are great and all, but as I said, any team would want 30+ turnovers. Its an instant playoff stat

[Bob's your Information Minister]

IF's are great and all, but as I said, any team would want 30+ turnovers. Its an instant playoff stat

That was my whole point.

[Rocket 7]

Guess what? It really doesn't matter. We'll be one of the most bad-assed passing teams in the league again. What does it take to get this fact through your head? WE ARE AN ELITE PASSING TEAM AND HAVE BEEN FOR THREE YEARS.

Keep laughing at out WRs, they will keep burning your ass.
How is Sylvester Morris doing? I think I saw him picking up my trash or was it he was pulling weeds?

[FADERPROOF]

Turnovers are a part of defense.

If the 2004 Chiefs had recorded 30+ turnovers we'd have been playoff bound.

Funny, Broncos couldn't force turnovers worth a damn last year, while our QB kept tossing ints(as you keep pointing out), yet we were a playoff team while the Chiefs weren't.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Funny, Broncos couldn't force turnovers worth a damn last year, while our QB kept tossing ints(as you keep pointing out), yet we were a playoff team while the Chiefs weren't.

Yeah but your D was ranked in the top 10 against the run AND pass. I was using the turnover point to illustrate how the Colts, who had an otherwise horrible defense, managed to get into the playoffs. JUST LIKE THE 2003 CHIEFS.

[watermock]

This is so amusing.

Anything Brown can bring to the table is an addition. We are not praying his groin improves and will be a savior for the D like you are with Kendrell Bell.

Brown washes out BFD...then we only have 16 more DL to choose from. Brown pans out, and he hasn't had any setbacks, we pulled a coup. Denver's hopes are hardly pinned on C. Brown as much as the Chefs are praying Bell's nuts heal. I don't know how Bob manages to hold on around here. You have to at least say he's got staying power, FishFan swam away half a year ago.

If Carl Peterson wasn't a complete fool, he would of given Robinson some talent back when the Chefs had a functioning Priest Holmes and Kennison and Morton actually cared. Hell, you don't even have Morton now. I think your new LB will be a star, but he's still a rookie and is going to get stood up behind that sissy DL.

The window has closed. Vermeil likely will cry like a woman on the way out the door after this years disaster. Then your left with Goonther in the wings. Then the cycle will be complete. At least when Denver kicks a coach out, we kick hard enough the tomcat doesn't sneak in the back door.

Bottom line is the Kansas City offense is aging, and their defensive will improve them to a semblance of mediocrity, around 7-9, IF Bell improves.

[telluride]

My off-season optimism has taken hold. I'm saying 11-5, and the playoffs, baby.

[DBroncos4life]

I could see 11-5 or 10-6. Truth is only Warren needs to improve to make the line better. Pryce will be 80% and that will still be more then enough to make the line better. If Ekuban and Myers play at the same level they did last year and there is no reason to think they won't then we are set a the Dline. Our LB core is stronger this year then last year as well. Sp teams? Please we now have a top punter and we still have Elam who is clutch as they come. If we improve our return team like I think we did then our top 10 O gets even better. The one real weakness on the team would be corners but we did a good job drafting depth and Browner was a good pick up as well. Our O will get better then last year as well. Doubt us all you want KC fans but remember we are NOT the aging team that you are so we do have more then on good push left in our tanks.

[watermock]

Not to mention we will have a deep draft next year with two firsts and two 4's. The Washington pick might be very high.

[Rocket 7]

Not to mention we will have a deep draft next year with two firsts and two 4's. The Washington pick might be very high.
Im thinking top 3 w/ Washington's pick.

[Merlin]

Dude, forcing turnovers are part of a good defense. The CLEAR difference between the 2003 Chiefs defense and the 2004 defense was turnovers.
Bob,
You complain about some of our homers, yet you are the quintessential example of tortured logic. On the one hand you were critical of Robinson and so Gunther as your savior, on the other, you recognize that your team was clearly better with Robinson's defense (as poor as it was). So which is it? If Gunther is better, then your team just plain sucks because it is getting worse. If Robinson is better, then your team just plain sucks because he is long gone and you are stuck with Gunther.

Merlin

[Rascal]

Several things must happen this year.

1) Somebody at RG must step up.
2) Pryce must come back healthy, Warren must at least good, and Brown needs to play more then half the games (prefer towards the end).
3) Watts must show up and catch the critical ball and Lelie needs to develop on the intermediate routes.
4) Bell needs to play to his ability
5) Red zone offense must be better and that is largely due to Kyle Johnson and Putzier contributing
6) Jake must not throw more then 15 INT's.
7) Special teams must improve over last year.

Honestly, I think Putzier and Kyle Johnson will improve. I think Warren will good but not spectacular. Pryce will be about 80% of his former self. Brown will play 6 games (none at the end...IR yet again). RG will be a problem all year...I have zero confidence in Cooper Carlisle. Lelie will do better, as will Watts but not to the degree that is needed. Bell...I really have no idea. Jake...I have no idea.

[wabbit]

I like & respect Pat Saunders, but I can from experience that when you cover the Broncos day after day for years...sometimes you just have too MUCH information rattling around your rationality.

9-7/8-8 IS possible IF everyone plays like they have...that is, If these Cleveland boys really ARE a bust...If Trevor's back remains a problem...if Luther Ellis plays his obligatory two games before curling up under the trainers table...if Plummer continues his quest for ambidextrous equality...if injuries plague the team

...but the good news is that that can happen in ANY year, and already has in some cases, so there's no where to go but up.

The schedule is a bear, but this really is a better team, so 10 & 6 remains my predicted finish, having not seen these guys play a single down (but, hey, it's that time of year)...maybe 11 & 5 with a little luck...& luck is a commodity in very short supply for Denver lately

Maybe it's our turn

[bronco militia]

the schedule is a bear, but this really is a better team, so 10 & 6 remains my predicted finish, having not seen these guys play a single down (but, hey, it's that time of year)...



no one has seen this team play a down so I don't see how you or Saunders can say this team is better or worse than the 2004 team.

after this offseason, I don't know how anyone can get a read on this team

christ, the off season sucks.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/drew/060705drew.gif

[wabbit]

no one has seen this team play a down so I don't see how you or Saunders can say this team is better or worse than the 2004 team.

after this offseason, I don't know how anyone can get a read on this team

christ, the off season sucks.



Well, OK...I'll embellish some

I give Denver all the credit in the world for major upgrades for it's Special teams.

If nothing else, these draft choices should add some real speed and talent there...and Todd Sauerbrun will greatly improve the punting, thus help with the field position game.

Special Teams cost us two games outright in 2004...and helped get us killed in both KC & Indy

I don't think that can happen this year

The Cleveland imports should follow a tendency of all people given a second chance, that is, they will play with considerable determination...knowing all the while that (in Warren & Browns case) they are on one year try-outs.

I've rarely seen a good player let down in a contract year.

Shanahan gave Plummer considerable latitude last year because he showed so much improvement in 2003. He won't make that mistake again, and that alone will make Plummer...at least statistically...better.

Lelie broke out in 2004. Watts is do for the same..at least to some degree. Putzier has become buddy-buddy with Plummer, so I suspect there will be many more balls going his way..Bell, Clarett with something to prove, as is the case with Anderson.

Yeah...a few things have changed for the better...MUCH better, so I feel venturing a prediction of a 10 & 6 season isn't exactly getting naked and dancing on I-25...perhaps you do.

[sirhcyennek81]

12-4. This team will gel at the right time, and roll.

[Crushaholic]

If this idiot Saunders predicted we would go to the SB last year, then I'll look for another one of his predictions to go down the toilet when we beat that predicted record...

[sledgehammer]

9-7 sounds about right.

Wins

Kansas City
Oakland
San Diego
NY Jets
Philadelphia
Washington
at Miami
at NY Giants
at Dallas

Losses

Baltimore
New England
at Kansas City
at Oakland
at San Diego
at Buffalo
at Jacksonville

[wabbit]

If Denver goes 3 & 5 on the road, they deserve to be 9-7/8-8...if that strong.

I don't see it.

The over-view says great improvement needed in pass rush & Special Teams...and, of course, fewer mistakes from Plummer.

Denver achieved both A & B, if only by virtue of getting abck Trevor Pryce at 100%...and I believe that will be the case. I mean, the guy knows he's on borrowed time with that contract.

With greater pass rush comes more turn-overs, and THAT was/is Larry Coyers' 2005 mission...& I tend to think it will happen.

[fontaine]

If Denver goes 3 & 5 on the road, they deserve to be 9-7/8-8...if that strong.

I don't see it.

The over-view says great improvement needed in pass rush & Special Teams...and, of course, fewer mistakes from Plummer.

Denver achieved both A & B, if only by virtue of getting abck Trevor Pryce at 100%...and I believe that will be the case. I mean, the guy knows he's on borrowed time with that contract.

With greater pass rush comes more turn-overs, and THAT was/is Larry Coyers' 2005 mission...& I tend to think it will happen.

If the team can stay relatively injury free then we go 10-6. If not then anything can happen, although I will say that the FO has done a good job of stocking up depth and should be reasonabley ok, (let's face it, the team has had plenty of practice at overcoming injuries the past couple of seasons).

We're much more prepared for injuries than say, other AFC West teams like KC, San Diego who are a Gonzalez, Gates or LT injury away from going back to the cellar or in KC's case, going back home.

[Mile High Shack]

like I have been saying

9-7 until I see better play all around defensively

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Bob,
You complain about some of our homers, yet you are the quintessential example of tortured logic. On the one hand you were critical of Robinson and so Gunther as your savior, on the other, you recognize that your team was clearly better with Robinson's defense (as poor as it was). So which is it? If Gunther is better, then your team just plain sucks because it is getting worse. If Robinson is better, then your team just plain sucks because he is long gone and you are stuck with Gunther.

Merlin

We faced inferior offenses when Robinson was here. Our schedule really was quite easy. Last year, not the case.

Besides, you all know Robinson would never have done well in KC, even WITH the talent we brought in this year.

[bloodsunday]

I think he is right but i dont think it will be on Shanny so much as the schedule. There just isnt too much more than 9 wins there any way you slice it unless we get several breakout years.
That's just it -- the prediction is all about a tough schedule. This team is no worse than last season (in terms of the roster) and very likely at least marginally better based on special teams alone. It's really hard to imagine how an established Pro Bowl punter and an electrifying returner like Williams won't move us from the bottom of the league to at least the middle of the pack. If the Browncos pan out, then we could be onto something special. I know there is some concern, but I don't see any reason to believe that DJ and Ian Gold won't be as good or better than they have been in previous seasons. DJ played all over the field in the preseason last year and adapted just fine.

So.. back to the schedule. Yeah it looks daunting, but there are a few things to note: 1) our toughest games are at home (NE, Philly, Bal) 2) our division plays essentially the same schedule (San Diego's is tougher) and 3) things will change as the season unfolds. If that schedule is as tough as it appears once it plays out, then 10 - 6 could win our division.

I think the best way to evaluate this team is to compare us to the division. I see a pretty tight race between KC and Den. Both teams have addressed their weaknesses in the offseason and had pretty good rosters to begin with. The Raiders will be fun to watch, but they will only play on one side of the ball. San Diego is overrated, IMO. They played over their heads last year and didn't do a lot to improve their status this season. Right now I give a slight edge to KC because they have a dominating unit in their offense. Denver plays well all around, but we don't have one dominant unit that can take over a game. If the D-line moves pan out, then that unit will be the defense and my prediction will become Denver. We can speculate that KC's offense will decline (based on age) or that our D-line will improve, but until those things happen, I stick by this.

[Traveler]

ive said we will go 9-7 from the start and although im hoping for the better ive got to stay realistic at this point. until the ( brownies ) prove otherwise i cant see us going any higher with the schedule and unproven players we have right now.


totally agree!

[Rohirrim]

IMO the whole season will come down to turnovers. Bring up the TO numbers and 11-5 is possible, stay at the bottom of the NFL in TO numbers, and 8-8 is likely.

I'm still not optimistic. Bronco success this year is based on a whole lot of "ifs," and few of those "ifs" are proven players. Rod's statistics are dropping. Lelie is still a "maybe." He makes some great catches, but he's hot and cold, and I have yet to see him become the go-to guy when the game is on the line, like Eddie Mac was. Watts is a wildman and has proven he can get open, but his hands are suspect - especially in the clutch. Putz is an average TE at best. The whole RB stable is full of "maybes" and if somebody goes down on the Oline, the dropoff in talent will be noticable. And which of these guys is going to consistently score in the red zone the way Sharpe or Eddie Mac or TD once did? Some of these young guys may be good, but not that good. And who knows about Jake?

The whole Dline is one, giant "if," including its only star player, Pryce. DJ is great, but will the SS eat him up? Were Gold's numbers in TBay an aberration, or reality? The secondary is even more questionable this season than last. And on STs about the only proven player is Saurbraun (the best offseason move Shanny made). The draftees are all pure "ifs", "maybes" and "I hope sos." Given that STs killed this team last year, that's still one of the biggest "ifs."

Think about it. Who's the Magic Johnson, the Kirk Gibson, the Elway, the Sharpe, the Eddie Mac, on this team? The guy who makes the crucial play at the toughest time? Who's the guy that you can always go to, to pull out the crucial third down, or the crucial score, or (even more important) the sack or the TO when you've absolutely got to have one?

This team still doesn't have the "star" player that everybody else feeds off of. Maybe next year, with the Skins pick, Shanny will get one.

I'm still saying 8 & 8.

[Traveler]

IMO the whole season will come down to turnovers. Bring up the TO numbers and 11-5 is possible, stay at the bottom of the NFL in TO numbers, and 8-8 is likely.

I'm still not optimistic. Bronco success this year is based on a whole lot of "ifs," and few of those "ifs" are proven players. Rod's statistics are dropping. Lelie is still a "maybe." He makes some great catches, but he's hot and cold, and I have yet to see him become the go-to guy when the game is on the line, like Eddie Mac was. Watts is a wildman and has proven he can get open, but his hands are suspect - especially in the clutch. Putz is an average TE at best. The whole RB stable is full of "maybes" and if somebody goes down on the Oline, the dropoff in talent will be noticable. And which of these guys is going to consistently score in the red zone the way Sharpe or Eddie Mac or TD once did? Some of these young guys may be good, but not that good. And who knows about Jake?

The whole Dline is one, giant "if," including its only star player, Pryce. DJ is great, but will the SS eat him up? Were Gold's numbers in TBay an aberration, or reality? The secondary is even more questionable this season than last. And on STs about the only proven player is Saurbraun (the best offseason move Shanny made). The draftees are all pure "ifs", "maybes" and "I hope sos." Given that STs killed this team last year, that's still one of the biggest "ifs."

Think about it. Who's the Magic Johnson, the Kirk Gibson, the Elway, the Sharpe, the Eddie Mac, on this team? The guy who makes the crucial play at the toughest time? Who's the guy that you can always go to, to pull out the crucial third down, or the crucial score, or (even more important) the sack or the TO when you've absolutely got to have one?

This team still doesn't have the "star" player that everybody else feeds off of. Maybe next year, with the Skins pick, Shanny will get one.

I'm still saying 8 & 8.


Welcome back...REP for this post!

[FADERPROOF]

We faced inferior offenses when Robinson was here. Our schedule really was quite easy. Last year, not the case.

Besides, you all know Robinson would never have done well in KC, even WITH the talent we brought in this year.

Do we know that? When he was the DC in denver, we happened to win 2 straight Super Bowls.

[Merlin]

This team still doesn't have the "star" player that everybody else feeds off of. Maybe next year, with the Skins pick, Shanny will get one.
I'm still saying 8 & 8.
This is a poor way of measuring a team. Is there one star player in NE that you can count on to win the game? The closest is their kicker since he is the one who has done it. Brady is good, but he has done nothing stellar to put him in that category. They have some good people in the secondary and decent linemen, but there was never a specific individual you would count on to win each game in a clutch situation. BTW, Lelie could be counted on to make some clutch catches to help win games, and there is no reason to assume he will not be better this year. In fact there is no reason to assume the whole offence will not be better this year.

Merlin

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Do we know that? When he was the DC in denver, we happened to win 2 straight Super Bowls.

Greg Robinson sucks.

[FADERPROOF]

Greg Robinson sucks.

Yes, although he was on a 13-3 team while Gunther was on a 7-9 team.

[Odysseus]

]
Think about it. Who's the Magic Johnson, the Kirk Gibson, the Elway, the Sharpe, the Eddie Mac, on this team? The guy who makes the crucial play at the toughest time? Who's the guy that you can always go to, to pull out the crucial third down, or the crucial score, or (even more important) the sack or the TO when you've absolutely got to have one?

This team still doesn't have the "star" player that everybody else feeds off of. Maybe next year, with the Skins pick, Shanny will get one.

I'm still saying 8 & 8.

Last year everyone was terrified about the Offensive line specifically OLT. We got past that. Nobody thought the offense would put up any numbers. The rules changed so everybody's number's went up. I only remember a few scattered posters talking about red zone. The only poster who said the offense will be "better than you think" was Wabbit. He was right. (No disrepect to anyone who also posted on that but I remember him being one of the first.)

Last year we were stoked on the defense but several key injuries later all we have to show for it are good stats....except turnovers. We thought Champ would save us from the perils of the NFL guns out there. Champ was good but not perfect. He's only one guy no matter what his ego or paycheck says.
Nobody was worried about Special Teams. I was livid about that all year. The meltdown on the defensive coaching did not help things.

This team really doesn't have any stars on it. We've got over-rated and under-rated players all over the place. Roh and a lot of you are absolutely correct on this assumption. I'm VERY optimisitic but I think this team is still just a 10-6 team. I think everyone is discounting this team because of the over optimism of last year. I think people buying into the difficultly of the schedule is short sighted.

This team is going to be better than a lot of you think. They will probably still not do well with Interceptions, red zone, and Jake will still be Jake. I think they'll survive at RG. All the happy talk about Jeb he'll still have balls bouncing off his helmet. Special teams will be dramatically improved simply because they it can't get any worst.

My biggest question mark right now is the guys staying healthy and getting us past the first round.

FYI: Roh is wrong about Rod's numbers. They went UP last year.

[Rohirrim]

This is a poor way of measuring a team. Is there one star player in NE that you can count on to win the game? The closest is their kicker since he is the one who has done it. Brady is good, but he has done nothing stellar to put him in that category. They have some good people in the secondary and decent linemen, but there was never a specific individual you would count on to win each game in a clutch situation. BTW, Lelie could be counted on to make some clutch catches to help win games, and there is no reason to assume he will not be better this year. In fact there is no reason to assume the whole offence will not be better this year.

Merlin

The Pats have a bunch of them (and by "star" I don't mean just headline grabbers - I mean consistent, unstoppable, "go to" guys). Bruschi, for one - although his future now looks in doubt. I think you're underselling Brady, big time. Let's put it this way, I'd trade Jake for Brady in a quarter heartbeat. The Broncos had those kinds of players too, when they took the two SBs: Elway,TD, Eddie, Sharpe, Rod, etc. Who can deny the drop off in third down and scoring consistency since Sharpe and Eddie left? They were money in the bank. When Sharpe, Eddie and Rod were inside the twenty, it was sure points. That consistent threat hasn't been replaced. There is no "go to" guy on offense anymore. Or on D, for that matter.

[Odysseus]

That consistent threat hasn't been replaced. There is no "go to" guy on offense anymore. Or on D, for that matter.

You are right. This is why I don't see this team pushing into any Super Bowls. I think this team can get deep into the playoffs but they don't have the punch to go the whole distance.

We have some very smart posters around here. I'm sorry. I don't buy the pessimsim that seems to own many of the Broncos posters here. I think they are going to do well despite having no name parts.

[Rohirrim]

FYI: Roh is wrong about Rod's numbers. They went UP last year.

Like I said, his stats are "dropping." Put his stats on a graph over his career. His overall stats have been dropping since 2000, his peak year. Last year he was the undeniable number one WR on the team. Given the fact that his best stats came when he was playing with Sharpe and Eddie, it's even a greater testament to how good of a receiver he has been. But the trend downward is undeniable. Ten years at WR in the NFL is a long time. Rod is entering his eleventh. Don't get me wrong, Rod is still my favorite all-time Bronco WR, and still the backbone of this team, and I still wear my #80 jersey proudly, but it's long past due that Lelie (or somebody) came in and took the top spot. I'm just saying that, compared to what they had (Rod, Sharpe, Eddie) the positions (TE/WR) are weak.

[TheReverend]

You are right. This is why I don't see this team pushing into any Super Bowls. I think this team can get deep into the playoffs but they don't have the punch to go the whole distance.

We have some very smart posters around here. I'm sorry. I don't buy the pessimsim that seems to own many of the Broncos posters here. I think they are going to do well despite having no name parts.

Lack of stars? Tell that to Al, Trevor and Champ. Dont believe the critics, John Lynch had a pretty good year too.

Reasons we are DOMINANT in 2005:

Before he was a "bust" of a draft pick, he was a solid rookie and a dominant player for years before a couple of injuries on a ****ty team that no one wants to play for. He'll have some more fire now.

Ashley Lelie kinda had a break out year last year... I might have been the only one that noticed how many deep balls he caught or PIs he brought on. About 12-1300 yards if you include PIs... wait till he shows his new mastery of the intermediate game.

Putz really started to come into his own last year... I think that continues. He seems to be buddy-buddy with Plummer... I'll trust his hands in the Redzone. They could help each other out with this friendship.

Warren-contract year... enough said.

DJ and Ian- theres quite a few Ian Gold critics but I think any of them think hes a step down from Sykes/Spragan. Obvious upgrade.

Bell is a fighter with speed... no more horse collars, he gets open, cuts back and hes gone.

Jake Plummer will have time to think because Tatum will be scorching defenses, keeping DL and LBs honest and having secondaries bite on the play action. Plus who can deny the power of the porno stache?

Jerry Rice... the greatest of all time is our FOURTH WR... and we still worry about redzone production?

Burns/Sauerbrun/Williams- should all come in to elevate our special teams to an elite level.

The offseason weve had with the money available blows my mind. Shannahan should get an award. He will, in fact. It's called the Lombardi Trophy.

[rbackfactory80]

Two broken down defensive ends are all you need?

You always come on here and criticize everything people write but calling Pryce a broken down end after suffering an injury is idiotic. Pryce is hands down better then any defender on the Chiefs.

[Rohirrim]

Welcome back...REP for this post!

Thanks for the welcome back, but I'm always around. I just don't get the time to post like I used to. These people actually expect me to work! I don't know where they get off with that. :thumbs:

[SoCalBronco]

DJ and Ian- theres quite a few Ian Gold critics but I think any of them think hes a step down from Sykes/Spragan. Obvious upgrade.



Ian is better than Spragan but worse than Sykes.

[Rohirrim]

You are right. This is why I don't see this team pushing into any Super Bowls. I think this team can get deep into the playoffs but they don't have the punch to go the whole distance.

We have some very smart posters around here. I'm sorry. I don't buy the pessimsim that seems to own many of the Broncos posters here. I think they are going to do well despite having no name parts.

I'm trying to be a realist, not a pessimist. But the reality is, once camp starts and I make it down to Dove Valley for a couple of practices, I'll throw all this realism aside and start shouting, "16 and 0!" By the time the games start, my heart will take over, my head will go out the window, and I'll be the worst :homer: on the board. Happens every year. ;)

[Mediator12]

Ian is better than Spragan but worse than Sykes.

Come on Socal, Sykes could not even beat Spragan out last year after he healed by game two.

[TheReverend]

Ian is better than Spragan but worse than Sykes.

We've talked about this too many times... sadly we can't have an end to the argument because Ian will be playing Will/Reduction. Maybe when DJ shows hes an insanely good Sam and our LB core is much better with the addition, we can have some resolution.

[SoCalBronco]

Come on Socal, Sykes could not even beat Spragan out last year after he healed by game two.

Sykes said on PFC Radio during the middle of the season that he still wasnt 100% and it wouldnt till the end of the year.

[yavoon]

You are right. This is why I don't see this team pushing into any Super Bowls. I think this team can get deep into the playoffs but they don't have the punch to go the whole distance.

We have some very smart posters around here. I'm sorry. I don't buy the pessimsim that seems to own many of the Broncos posters here. I think they are going to do well despite having no name parts.

funny I find the forum overall to be very optimistic. especially when it comes to flaming the pessimists!

[Merlin]

The Pats have a bunch of them (and by "star" I don't mean just headline grabbers - I mean consistent, unstoppable, "go to" guys). Bruschi, for one - although his future now looks in doubt. I think you're underselling Brady, big time. Let's put it this way, I'd trade Jake for Brady in a quarter heartbeat.
None of their players are stars in the context that is being discussed. None comes close to being able to dominate a game (the closest is Law, but look at what they did without him). Brady is better than Jake, but so what. Are you contending that Jake is a star? Jake is a good QB, and Brady is a very good QB, but neither of those two are stars in the context discussed; i.e. they dominate a game by themselves. Ron Mexico at the moment is not as good as Brady, but on any given day he can dominate like few other QBs can. NE is a team concept. They win as a team. That is why they can loose their CBs and still win in the playoffs and the SB against excellent QBs.

BTW, Bruschi is the one I would argue comes closest in defence and Brady on offence, but these are rarely examples of individual effort.

Merlin

[TheReverend]

BTW, Bruschi is the one I would argue comes closest in defence and Brady on offence, but these are rarely examples of individual effort.

Merlin

hehehe

[Odysseus]

Lack of stars? Tell that to Al, Trevor and Champ. Dont believe the critics, John Lynch had a pretty good year too.

Reasons we are DOMINANT in 2005:

The offseason weve had with the money available blows my mind. Shannahan should get an award. He will, in fact. It's called the Lombardi Trophy.

Nobody is scared of our team offensively or defensively. I'll assume since you did not list any offensive starters that we agree our offense isn't all that. If Bell shows up, Putz improves, and our WR all perform we are still just a 20 point offense. Sure we can get 30 points but that is leagueflation due to rule changes. Our better teams would be 50 point offenses now.

Defensively I look at the number of guys on DL and LB who are pro bowl guys. I look at the number of interceptions. I look at the number of stops our defense puts up. I look at the number of key games where our defense got shot full of holes.

Stats is one of the easiest ways to lie. The only test of any off season is the end result. I don't think consecutive first round exits are bad but even if we get past the first round whose our closer on either side of the ball? Who are our playmakers? Our teams have not been MENTALLY very tough.

This team has to get healthy, stay healthy and keep winning. It's not a bad deal being a Bronco fan. I'm glad Shanahan stuck around. I want to see him beat the critics and get another Superbowl ring.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

hehehe

British spelling.

[TheReverend]

Another solid post Quiettiger...

I do think our offense is all-that. I don't think we have any Randy Moss's or Peyton manning's but I think Tatum Bell has a legit shot at cracking 2,000 if he stays healthy. I think Lelie becomes a bonafide star and Putz plays solidly.

On defense I think youll see turnovers in abundance this year with a healthy pryce, warren and brown after the passer with the occasional rush from our new Sam, DJ.

Barring a massive amount of Injuries (2004 titans)... I think the sky's the limit

[ZachKC]

Would you really like to admit that the Chifs don't have any "Ifs?"

Didn't think so.
Of course not; no team has no "ifs" but I believe we have alot less than the Broncos.

[ZachKC]

I am still sorting through this thread. So far The Reverend is making you guys look like idiots. I would chain him up and let the big kids talk football.

[SoCalBronco]

I am still sorting through this thread. So far The Reverend is making you guys look like idiots. I would chain him up and let the big kids talk football.

Actually Reverend has made many excellent points and has very good insight. There arent that many kids here, this isnt the team site board.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Lack of stars? Tell that to Al, Trevor and Champ.

Al and Trevor are not stars

[TheReverend]

I am still sorting through this thread. So far The Reverend is making you guys look like idiots. I would chain him up and let the big kids talk football.

Says the fruit that comes to a rival AFC West message board to instigate in an endless stream of Chief's homerism...

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Says the fruit that comes to a rival AFC West message board to instigate in an endless stream of Chief's homerism...

You're new here....

[TheReverend]

You're new here....

Says the fruit who has 5,000+ posts in one year on a rival message board...

[sirhcyennek81]

hey, i am a fruit. oh wait...carry on. Broncos will do fine, Chiefs will do what they do, score 40 points, give up 45. Vermiel will cry, we will laugh at him crying, then forget the chiefs when we get into the playoffs and crush the colts. it will happen.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Says the fruit who has 5,000+ posts in one year on a rival message board...

Right. That would make me...NOT NEW. And I actually registered here under a different name LONG before that, so I'm even more established.

Anyway, did you have a point?

[Merlin]

Al and Trevor are not stars
You are right, they are not stars in the usual context of the term. But Al and Trevor (if healthy) are considered among the best at their corresponding positions.

Merlin

[bloodsunday]

Nobody is scared of our team offensively or defensively.
Rep. This goes back to a post I put out earlier. We are a solid all around team, but we have no player and no unit that is truly dominant. That is why this team will never be better than a 10 - 6 or 11 - 5 team (unless more playmakers step up). I hold out hope that the changes to the d-line can make our defense into a dominant unit. We have enough skill players on defense, but our d-line is letting us down. With better d-line play we'll get better field position and more turnovers. If our defense can dominate the way Carolina, Baltimore (in the past), New England, and Pittsburgh have, then this team will be scary. Our balance on offense and now Special Teams would a great compliment to a dominant defense.

But I agree totally, as I see it right now, we don't have a dominant unit that teams fear playing.

[bloodsunday]

You are right, they are not stars in the usual context of the term. But Al and Trevor (if healthy) are considered among the best at their corresponding positions.
I love Al, but I don't think he is considered to be a top 5 MLB in the NFL. He is a fringe Pro Bowler (depending on his stats each season and injuries to others). Trevor used to be a dominant player but seems to be tailing off. I think all this changing of positions has hurt him and I also think that he has lost some of his hunger. Hopefully those two things change and he can be dominant again this year.

[Merlin]

Of course not; no team has no "ifs" but I believe we have alot less than the Broncos.
How can you begin to make that suggestion? Your team had a losing record and the Broncos a winning record. Your team has made changes, but you don't know yet if they will pay off. The broncos have made changes, but much of the team that achieved the winning record is back as are critical players that missed much of last year because of injuries. Also, the young players that did well last year will have one year's experience in Shanahan's often complex system. You guys have far more ifs than the Broncos.

BTW, from the point of view of gambles, the Broncos also have much better potential pay offs than your team. So both, from potential and actual performance perspective, you guys are in a more questionable position.

Merlin

[Merlin]

I love Al, but I don't think he is considered to be a top 5 MLB in the NFL. He is a fringe Pro Bowler (depending on his stats each season and injuries to others).
Actually, a number of sports writers believe he is and rate him higher than Ray Lewis. The measure is not how they perform in a particular game or hit (no pun intended) the highlight reels, but rather how well they do day-in-day-out, and Al's record speaks for itself.

If Al were half the self promoter that Ray is he would be a pro bowler a few times over.

Merlin

[bronco militia]

the Broncos created enough "if's" this offseason to be mentioned in the same breath as the Chiefs.....

[gunns]

I think he is right but i dont think it will be on Shanny so much as the schedule. There just isnt too much more than 9 wins there any way you slice it unless we get several breakout years.

So basically Shanahan has once again mislead us by saying we are only one or two players away from making it. WHAT A SHOCK!

[Merlin]

the Broncos created enough "if's" this offseason to be mentioned in the same breath as the Chiefs.....
Where? Most of the DL is back, and the replacements would easily match the one departure. Safety is not a big drop off, in fact in some ways it is an improvement. Receiving got better. Running got better. ST got better. Secondary got better (even considering the question at safety). QB has one more year experience and has many more tools available so at the very least will attain same performance, but more likely will improve. TE got better. OL is no worse (might be better because Foster has one more years experience).
Is easy to make blanket statements, but at least back them up with something other than facts by assertion.

As I said, there are ifs, but in no way can one feasibly argue they are at the same threshold as KC.

Merlin

[bronco militia]

Where?

Most of the DL is back, and the replacements would easily match the one departure.

if you were happy with the DL in 2004, then I can see why you think the DL is better. i don't share your enthusiasm for last years DL unit.

The Broncos were trying to trade Trevor for a reason and Trevor's back is a huge question mark. "If" #1

They traded and drafted for, so far, a bunch of underachievers from cleveland..."If" #2, # 3,# 4, #5

Safety is not a big drop off, in fact in some ways it is an improvement.

I agree, but thought they should have tried to keep Herndon. Oh well, the Broncos drafted 3 CB's. "If" #6

Receiving got better.

lol!...just saying so doesn't make it true. this is an area I thought the Broncos would address more this offseason. Vincent Jackson was right there for the taking. "if" #7

Running got better.

sure, Mike Anderson is healthy (and is #1 on the depth chart). But drafting Clarret really pissed me off. "if" #8

ST got better.

yes, finally...even if the Roid rage punter holds out.

Secondary got better (even considering the question at safety).

yes and no.....KK was a liability on the field, and Herndon is gone, but Walls returns from an injury plagued season. if he stays healthy and some of the new CB's produce. "if" #9, #10


QB has one more year experience and has many more tools available so at the very least will attain same performance, but more likely will improve.

lol...again, just saying so doesn't make it true. Jake's entire career can be summed up by looking at the 2004 season. A lot of trINT's and boned headed plays. This is not an if because this is a given. He will end up being the weak link sometime this season. Again what "new" tools does he have in 2005 compared to 2004?


TE got better.

really? how so? Stephanie Alexander? the new coach? "If" #11

OL is no worse (might be better because Foster has one more years experience).

I agree. But I think Ben Hamilton is overated, or is playing out of position. if he's the next long time center, then thats where he should be playing. The broncos have question marks at Guard regardless of Hamilton. "If" #12


Is easy to make blanket statements, but at least back them up with something other than facts by assertion.

uh, sure you do

.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I still think you guys are going to have troubles in the red zone.

[TheReverend]

I love Al, but I don't think he is considered to be a top 5 MLB in the NFL. He is a fringe Pro Bowler (depending on his stats each season and injuries to others). Trevor used to be a dominant player but seems to be tailing off. I think all this changing of positions has hurt him and I also think that he has lost some of his hunger. Hopefully those two things change and he can be dominant again this year.

Al's actually rated in the top 3 MLBs and Top 5 LBs in general every year. MLB he sits behind Ray Ray and alternates the #2 spot with urlacher depending upon the reporting. When OLBs are included LaVar and Brooks usually get a nod above him but hes consistently rated an ELITE LB.

[bronco militia]

I still think you guys are going to have troubles in the red zone.

oh yeah and that too....anyway, there's a lot to look for in the preseason. Hopefully our Broncos stay healthy enough to address these issues in 2005.

[bronco militia]

Al's actually rated in the top 3 MLBs and Top 5 LBs in general every year. MLB he sits behind Ray Ray and alternates the #2 spot with urlacher depending upon the reporting. When OLBs are included LaVar and Brooks usually get a nod above him but hes consistently rated an ELITE LB.

he had a down year in 2004, but that usually happens when players "get payed"....

IMO, he missed a lot of goaline tackles.

[TheReverend]

he had a down year in 2004, but that usually happens when players "get payed"....

IMO, he missed a lot of goaline tackles.

I dont think he had a down year, I think DJ played so well that Al didnt shine as bright. The statement was "Al isnt rated high" and I was explaining he's rated very high by experts. CBS Sportsline top 50 players has him top 3 MLBs for the past 4 yrs.

[bloodsunday]

I dont think he had a down year, I think DJ played so well that Al didnt shine as bright. The statement was "Al isnt rated high" and I was explaining he's rated very high by experts. CBS Sportsline top 50 players has him top 3 MLBs for the past 4 yrs.
Actually, I started this and the statment was that Al's not a top 5 MLB. I stand by that statement. Al is a solid linebacker and I love having him on this team, but I was refuting the idea the he could make this defense great all by himself.

Here are the 5 middle linebackers that made the Pro Bowl last season:
James Farrior, PIT
Tedy Bruschi, NE
Ray Lewis, BAL (injured)
Dan Morgan, CAR
Jeremiah Trotter, PHI

I suppose I would take Al over Trotter, but that's it. I give Ray Ray the nod because of his play making ability. Throw in Ulracher, Brooking, and Zach Thomas and Al slides to at least 6 or 7.

[TheReverend]

Actually, I started this and the statment was that Al's not a top 5 MLB. I stand by that statement. Al is a solid linebacker and I love having him on this team, but I was refuting the idea the he could make this defense great all by himself.

Here are the 5 middle linebackers that made the Pro Bowl last season:
James Farrior, PIT
Tedy Bruschi, NE
Ray Lewis, BAL (injured)
Dan Morgan, CAR
Jeremiah Trotter, PHI

I suppose I would take Al over Trotter, but that's it. I give Ray Ray the nod because of his play making ability. Throw in Ulracher, Brooking, and Zach Thomas and Al slides to at least 6 or 7.

I think Ray Ray and Urlacher are overrated. It was fun watching Ray Lewis get his ass run over by the bus all day last year.

Trotters a great run defender but a complete MLB needs to be at least decent in coverage (usually playing hook/slant zones). Farrior had an absolutely incredible year and if he keeps it up I'd rate him as #1. Bruschi... this is probably my anti pats bias, but I think he's just lucky (no evidence to back that up at all). I flat out disagree on Brooking and Ive seen Zach Thomas or Dan Morgan take on blockers well.

That leaves... despite being overrated: Ray Lewis... and Al, and we'll see about Farrior.

[Merlin]

if you were happy with the DL in 2004, then I can see why you think the DL is better. i don't share your enthusiasm for last years DL unit...
You totally missed the point. The question was how did the teams compare to last year. KC looks like it may have answers, but there are a bunch of ifs at play. Conversely it is easy to show, as I already did and you confirmed, that the team is at least as good as last year, and potentially better. Are they ifs at play? Of course, but they have great potential for payoff (and it is highly unlikely TP is as bad as you assume otherwise they would have rather cut him). As I stated from the start, yes they Broncos have ifs, but they are not in the same ballpark as the Chiefs which you stated and could not validate. All you could argue was that last years team was not great. Now, that was great insight in your part. Again, you claim the ifs in the Broncos are at least as bad as KC, how so? You have not provided any evidence for this claim but your typical cynic claims disguised as powerful commentating.

PS People assume that being a sceptic is a sign of intelligence, but being a sceptic about everything is just a different form of being a follower (your thoughts are defined by others). Critical thought is a combination of being a sceptic and being able to recognize validity when applicable.

Merlin

[bronco militia]

You totally missed the point. The question was how did the teams compare to last year. KC looks like it may have answers, but there are a bunch of ifs at play. Conversely it is easy to show, as I already did and you confirmed, that the team is at least as good as last year, and potentially better. Are they ifs at play? Of course, but they have great potential for payoff (and it is highly unlikely TP is as bad as you assume otherwise they would have rather cut him). As I stated from the start, yes they Broncos have ifs, but they are not in the same ballpark as the Chiefs which you stated and could not validate. All you could argue was that last years team was not great. Now, that was great insight in your part. Again, you claim the ifs in the Broncos are at least as bad as KC, how so? You have not provided any evidence for this claim but your typical cynic claims disguised as powerful commentating.

PS People assume that being a sceptic is a sign of intelligence, but being a sceptic about everything is just a different form of being a follower (your thoughts are defined by others). Critical thought is a combination of being a sceptic and being able to recognize validity when applicable.

Merlin

I generated the "ifs" in response to post #131 and #133.

Don't assume that I am questioning your intelligence or try to read betwen the lines of my post. I'll come right out and tell you what I think of you if need be. Right now, you're like most of the memebers of the Orange Mane that think if they say something enough times it will eventually become fact.

homer on

[Merlin]

Right now, you're like most of the memebers of the Orange Mane that think if they say something enough times it will eventually become fact.
Great minds think sort of a like :) That is exactly what I think many of the nay Sayers behave like since their responses are far too often knee jerk reactions with very little insight but rather the obvious superficial context. It is all a matter of perspective as you know, my concern is when one is expected to accept other perspectives when they provide little substance but the usual uninsightful, superficial, glib commentary. Not that I am this necessarily applies to your comments ;)

Merlin

[fontaine]

Actually, I started this and the statment was that Al's not a top 5 MLB. I stand by that statement. Al is a solid linebacker and I love having him on this team, but I was refuting the idea the he could make this defense great all by himself.

Here are the 5 middle linebackers that made the Pro Bowl last season:
James Farrior, PIT
Tedy Bruschi, NE
Ray Lewis, BAL (injured)
Dan Morgan, CAR
Jeremiah Trotter, PHI

I suppose I would take Al over Trotter, but that's it. I give Ray Ray the nod because of his play making ability. Throw in Ulracher, Brooking, and Zach Thomas and Al slides to at least 6 or 7.

I disagree.

Farrior is a product of the 3-4 system where Pittsburgh have a tremendous front 2 that can rush the passer and take up double teams vs the run. Bruschi? Yeah he's a solid MLB but I would have Al Wilson over him because he's far younger and better in coverage.

Dan Morgan can't stay healthy and has yet to post a full 16 game season.

Zach Thomas still play great but his skills are deteriorating and he looked average at times behind an average DL last year.

So yeah I would take Wison over all of these guys right now barring Ray Ray and Keith Brooking.