When an employee switches gender . . .

[clean]

When an employee switches gender, what's a company to do?

At work, transgender employees can bring up many tough issues. How does an employee inform co-workers that he or she is switching genders? How will clients react? How will co-workers handle a transitioning employee using the restroom? And there are logistical issues, such as changing security badges to reflect a new gender.

“It's a huge issue. Are they a man or a woman, and when do they change?” says Richard Chaifetz, CEO of Chicago-based ComPsych, an employee-assistance firm. “It creates discomfort for people; their prejudices come out. The gender is changing, but (employees) know it's the same person, and that can create problems for people.”

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/money/20050610/transgendercov10.art.htm

[-Slap-]

"I'm going to HR. I just can't pee when Glenn/Glenda is in the restroom."

[Maximus]

Amazing... this happened on my Job. Male to female!!!

[clean]

"I'm going to HR. I just can't pee when Glenn/Glenda is in the restroom."

Stage fright was also my concern.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Jesus. If someone did that at my workplace I'd avoid them at all costs. Changing your gender is unnatural.

[-Slap-]

Jesus. If someone did that at my workplace I'd avoid them at all costs. Changing your gender is unnatural.

Have they conclusively defined your gender, Knob?

Kind of thought the jury was still out on that one.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Have they conclusively defined your gender, Knob?

Kind of thought the jury was still out on that one.

I'm a Chiefs fan.

[Paladin]

And Boob is still undefined....

I once had an employee who changed to female and s/he turned out to be lesbian. I sh*t you not!

[Tredici]

Not at my job, but in the industry, had a guy we'd all done business with and knew he had a wife and a couple of kids and then at one function he shows up as Laura sans Larry.

Man, it was a treat to watch the good old boys deal with that one.

[sisterhellfyre]

Hi, gang --

This was an interesting article. Not least because I'm an M2F transexual myself, and currently in the process of changing from "man" to "woman." Nope, no kidding! I started on the process last September, gradually changing my wardrobe, letting my hair and nails grow, etc... adding up subtle cues... and I've been on hormone treatment with estrogen and progesterone for six weeks now. The drugs are beginning to change my body, and the biggest problem I have right now is impatience. The more that happens, the more I'm ready and eager for more changes to occur.

I'm planning to have The Surgery about 3 years from now, when I can take a loan against my 401K to pay for the procedure. I'm fortunate in that I won't need a facial remodeling surgery; I've always had fairly fine-boned features, small hands, and so on, so it's almost like my body was halfway there to begin with. I "pass" pretty well on the street right now, and that will only become even more so as I continue with the hormones. Shop clerks, restaurant workers & etc call me "ma'am" more often than not. Even when I'm not wearing any makeup at all, I can see a hesitation in their eyes as they try to decide whether I'm a "sir" or a "ma'am." Much of the time, they choose the "safe" option and just say "May I help you?" without any gender honorifics. Like the Army veteran quoted at the end of the article, I may be a big girl... I'm 5'11" and 160... but I'm definitely a girl.

And if I'm going to do it, I'd darned well better do it up good: don't you know that tall blonde longhaired women attract a LOT of second looks??? [laugh]

The USA Today article was dead-on about some of the challenges that transitioning people face in the workplace. My health insurance has an exception clause specifically denying any benefit or coverage for supplies, services, treatments or procedures for "sexual transformation." For some M2Fs, between genital surgery, facial surgery, and electrolysis, the bill can run up to $75,000. You could look at it as a measure of how committed transitioners are to being or becoming who they feel they were supposed to be: even the prospect of having to come up with that kind of money doesn't stop them.

Making my transition at work has really been pretty easy -- but I also realize how fortunate and blessed I am in that. I work for a medium-sized family-owned business that supplies art materials and equipment to the Pacific Northwest. I've been there for 14 years now, thru thick, thin, divorce and health problems. When I started seeing a counselor to talk about gender issues and confusions back in 2003, I informed the owners of the company, in general terms, of what I was doing. (They're friends as well as supervisors, and regard me as part of the company "family.") As I decided that transitioning was right for me, and as I got closer to starting on it, I kept my supervisors well-informed, answering any questions they had.

Together, we plotted out a strategy for how to share the news with the rest of the staff. I shared that info back in January, and I'm going "full-time" to live as a woman -- to live as myself -- in about another month. :-)

Most of the people I work with have been really great about it. One or two men gave me the "fisheye" at first, but they've come around to accept the change as they've seen that I'm serious about it. It's not some wild harebrained idea that I'll eventually forget about. Most of the women I work with have been fascinated at seeing the changes, and they've had lots of questions. They've also offered support of all kinds, from makeup tips to constructive comments about clothing colors or styles. One woman, the assistant general manager of the company, even brought me a bagful of "extra" makeup colors and products that she doesn't use.

I guess I'd say the key to making a successful transition at work is information. What has worked for me has been to be open and clear about what I'm doing. I knew as I got started that the process would take a while. It's not like I could afford to take a month off, go away male and come back female. I also knew I didn't want to just show up one day in a dress and makeup and say "I'm M***** now." That would not have worked. I'm also not going to be a "femi-Nazi" about my coworkers referring to me as "he" or "she." I'll request "she," but I realize they've known me for 13+ years now as "he." It's going to take a while for them to get used to. I've promised to be gentle with them.

I figure that people tend to fear the unknown, and gender-switchers like me are among the greatest of unknowns. I did the math once, and came up with a figure something like 1:60,000 will ever begin or make a gender switch. That's not a real high ratio! Given that number, I figure that if I want people to accept and respect what I'm doing, I have to be willing to share information with them. If y'all have any questions, please feel free to ask.

You may fire when ready... :-)

Regards,
m.

[sisterhellfyre]

BYIM wrote:
"Jesus. If someone did that at my workplace I'd avoid them at all costs. Changing your gender is unnatural."

So, Bob, I gotta ask: does this mean you'll avoid any threads I've posted on from now on? Does that mean I could run you off the board by making sure to post some comment on every new thread?

Just checking... praise the Lord and pass the ammunition...

Regards,
m.

[watermock]

Before you decide, I recommend watching Mr. Garrison's ordeal from South Park.

[Pat Bowlen]

You may fire when ready... :-)

Regards,
m.
Thanks for taking all the fun out of the thread.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

BYIM wrote:
"Jesus. If someone did that at my workplace I'd avoid them at all costs. Changing your gender is unnatural."

So, Bob, I gotta ask: does this mean you'll avoid any threads I've posted on from now on? Does that mean I could run you off the board by making sure to post some comment on every new thread?

Just checking... praise the Lord and pass the ammunition...

Regards,
m.

No. Online is completely different. I'm not going to insult you either. To me, you are just another Broncos fan. That is already bad enough. ;D

[DBroncos4life]

Jesus. If someone did that at my workplace I'd avoid them at all costs. Changing your gender is unnatural.


Whatever bob you know you would use the grass on the field lets play approach.

[sisterhellfyre]

Pat Bowlen wrote:"Thanks for taking all the fun out of the thread."

Oh... gee... Pat... bummer for you, dude.

Regards,
m.

[sisterhellfyre]

DB4L wrote: "Whatever bob you know you would use the grass on the field lets play approach."

Not that there's anything wrong with that, right guys? ;-)

Regards,
m.

[Tredici]

I love this Forum.

[Kaylore]

Thanks for taking all the fun out of the thread.
LOL No joke.

[Bronx33]

Wanted: 1 Stick Of Dynamite And A Lighter.

[Garcia Bronco]

I think if I did something like that..I'd want to start a new job after that fact..but I guess the reality is...one might not beable to afford something likek that....anyway....who cares in the end...as long as the transexual understand that it's not just happening to them...it's happening to everybody around them too. I just wouldn't put up with listening to a transexaul complain that they're a victim of this, that, or the other. They decided to do it.

[Garcia Bronco]

I love this Forum.


It's wild ain't it?

[Garcia Bronco]

BYIM wrote:
"Jesus. If someone did that at my workplace I'd avoid them at all costs. Changing your gender is unnatural."

So, Bob, I gotta ask: does this mean you'll avoid any threads I've posted on from now on? Does that mean I could run you off the board by making sure to post some comment on every new thread?

Just checking... praise the Lord and pass the ammunition...

Regards,
m.


LOL!!!

I'm a transexual too....see ya Bob.

[RhymesayersDU]

We had this problem at my pop's restaurant. There was a guy, who was a cross dresser... dressed, acted, etc like a woman, although still had the male parts.

He/She wanted to use the woman's bathroom, but my dad wasn't having it. She worked as a dishwasher, so the aspect of customer interaction wasn't a problem.

[DB-Freak]

LMAO!!!

The gay thread and now this??

O boy Errand must be sick to his stomach right now.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You know, how the hell is clean allowed to have an avatar like that? That's just repulsive.

[Nuggets4]

I love this Forum.

Damn right.

BTW sisterhellfyre, good for you. Sounds like you're really happy with your decision, and that's the only important thing.

[DB-Freak]

You know, how the hell is clean allowed to have an avatar like that? That's just repulsive.
Cannibal Corpse baby.

:militia: :militia:

[Nuggets4]

You know, how the hell is clean allowed to have an avatar like that? That's just repulsive.

Same can be said of yours.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Same can be said of yours.

Dude, are you serious? His avatar is disgustingly offensive.

[DBroncos4life]

Dude, are you serious? His avatar is disgustingly offensive.



Really yours is too.

[TD30]

This forum is cracking me up.

[Bronx33]

Barb why is gunther wearing skeet shooting glasses??? is this so he can see/shoot who's fu**** up this year?

[DBroncos4life]

Barb why is gunther wearing skeet shooting glasses??? is this so he can see/shoot who's ****** up this year?



Gunthers future is so bright he has to wear shades.

[clean]

Hi, gang --

This was an interesting article. Not least because I'm an M2F transexual myself, and currently in the process of changing from "man" to "woman." Nope, no kidding! I started on the process last September, gradually changing my wardrobe, letting my hair and nails grow, etc... adding up subtle cues... and I've been on hormone treatment with estrogen and progesterone for six weeks now. The drugs are beginning to change my body, and the biggest problem I have right now is impatience. The more that happens, the more I'm ready and eager for more changes to occur.


Thanks for the post. Hearing a first person account always makes an issue a little less abstract for me.

[sisterhellfyre]

Thanks for the post. Hearing a first person account always makes an issue a little less abstract for me.

You're welcome, clean. :-)

And thanks, Nuggets4, for your statement too. I am happy with the decision, and with what I've done so far.

Garcia, you had a great point that a sex change doesn't just affect the person making the change. It affects everyone around them too. It's a kind of egocentric myopia there that I've seen among some transitioners. I remind myself daily, and even multiple times a day, that "it's not all about me." And I don't lay any claim to victimhood, or special considerations "just because". That's just not right.

Regards,
m.

[Garcia Bronco]

You're welcome, clean. :-)

And thanks, Nuggets4, for your statement too. I am happy with the decision, and with what I've done so far.

Garcia, you had a great point that a sex change doesn't just affect the person making the change. It affects everyone around them too. It's a kind of egocentric myopia there that I've seen among some transitioners. I remind myself daily, and even multiple times a day, that "it's not all about me." And I don't lay any claim to victimhood, or special considerations "just because". That's just not right.

Regards,
m.

Right on.

[Rock Chalk]

Hi, gang --

This was an interesting article. Not least because I'm an M2F transexual myself, and currently in the process of changing from "man" to "woman." Nope, no kidding! I started on the process last September, gradually changing my wardrobe, letting my hair and nails grow, etc... adding up subtle cues... and I've been on hormone treatment with estrogen and progesterone for six weeks now. The drugs are beginning to change my body, and the biggest problem I have right now is impatience. The more that happens, the more I'm ready and eager for more changes to occur.

I'm planning to have The Surgery about 3 years from now, when I can take a loan against my 401K to pay for the procedure. I'm fortunate in that I won't need a facial remodeling surgery; I've always had fairly fine-boned features, small hands, and so on, so it's almost like my body was halfway there to begin with. I "pass" pretty well on the street right now, and that will only become even more so as I continue with the hormones. Shop clerks, restaurant workers & etc call me "ma'am" more often than not. Even when I'm not wearing any makeup at all, I can see a hesitation in their eyes as they try to decide whether I'm a "sir" or a "ma'am." Much of the time, they choose the "safe" option and just say "May I help you?" without any gender honorifics. Like the Army veteran quoted at the end of the article, I may be a big girl... I'm 5'11" and 160... but I'm definitely a girl.

And if I'm going to do it, I'd darned well better do it up good: don't you know that tall blonde longhaired women attract a LOT of second looks??? [laugh]

The USA Today article was dead-on about some of the challenges that transitioning people face in the workplace. My health insurance has an exception clause specifically denying any benefit or coverage for supplies, services, treatments or procedures for "sexual transformation." For some M2Fs, between genital surgery, facial surgery, and electrolysis, the bill can run up to $75,000. You could look at it as a measure of how committed transitioners are to being or becoming who they feel they were supposed to be: even the prospect of having to come up with that kind of money doesn't stop them.

Making my transition at work has really been pretty easy -- but I also realize how fortunate and blessed I am in that. I work for a medium-sized family-owned business that supplies art materials and equipment to the Pacific Northwest. I've been there for 14 years now, thru thick, thin, divorce and health problems. When I started seeing a counselor to talk about gender issues and confusions back in 2003, I informed the owners of the company, in general terms, of what I was doing. (They're friends as well as supervisors, and regard me as part of the company "family.") As I decided that transitioning was right for me, and as I got closer to starting on it, I kept my supervisors well-informed, answering any questions they had.

Together, we plotted out a strategy for how to share the news with the rest of the staff. I shared that info back in January, and I'm going "full-time" to live as a woman -- to live as myself -- in about another month. :-)

Most of the people I work with have been really great about it. One or two men gave me the "fisheye" at first, but they've come around to accept the change as they've seen that I'm serious about it. It's not some wild harebrained idea that I'll eventually forget about. Most of the women I work with have been fascinated at seeing the changes, and they've had lots of questions. They've also offered support of all kinds, from makeup tips to constructive comments about clothing colors or styles. One woman, the assistant general manager of the company, even brought me a bagful of "extra" makeup colors and products that she doesn't use.

I guess I'd say the key to making a successful transition at work is information. What has worked for me has been to be open and clear about what I'm doing. I knew as I got started that the process would take a while. It's not like I could afford to take a month off, go away male and come back female. I also knew I didn't want to just show up one day in a dress and makeup and say "I'm M***** now." That would not have worked. I'm also not going to be a "femi-Nazi" about my coworkers referring to me as "he" or "she." I'll request "she," but I realize they've known me for 13+ years now as "he." It's going to take a while for them to get used to. I've promised to be gentle with them.

I figure that people tend to fear the unknown, and gender-switchers like me are among the greatest of unknowns. I did the math once, and came up with a figure something like 1:60,000 will ever begin or make a gender switch. That's not a real high ratio! Given that number, I figure that if I want people to accept and respect what I'm doing, I have to be willing to share information with them. If y'all have any questions, please feel free to ask.

You may fire when ready... :-)

Regards,
m.
I had a nice long response for you but I decided that speaking to an it is not worth my time.

[Nuggets4]

I had a nice long response for you but I decided that speaking to an it is not worth my time.

But it was worth your time to think of a "nice long response", think about it, then decide not to post it and instead post a jackass comment? Gotcha.

[delany]

sisterhellfyre: Thanks for sharing all this.

Just curious about a few things...feel free not to answer any of these q's.

Does your ex know about this? What was their reaction?

Do you have any kids?

What is your sexual orientation?

Have you ever been deeply suicidal?

To be honest, I would be pretty uncomfortable woking with a trans-gen (but hey, I still am somewhat homophobic as well)...and really I view this as more my problem than someone in your position.

Good luck with all this.

[bronco militia]

good luck with all this?

bwhahahaha!!

I'd fire he/she/it's ass!

[sisterhellfyre]

Hi gang --

To Alec: "It?" [amused laugh] OK, so what? I can live with that. I don't expect everyone I meet to smile and say "good luck!" I'm just as prepared to deal with the negative as well as the positive. But thanks for sharing your perspective. :-)

To bronco_militia: You'd fire me, huh? Bummer... but it would be more your loss of a good employee than it would be skin off my butt. I know that I'm fortunate in having a great place to work, where I can be (and become) who I am. I know several other TS folk whose work environment would be hostile. And it severely crimps their happiness in life. (Side note, not a threat: in more and more places around the country, firing me because of my gender status would be grounds to sue, and the suit would have an excellent chance of success.)

To delany: Thanks for asking your questions. I'm sure willing to meet you halfway and respect your curiosity. :-)

"Does your ex know about this? What was their reaction?"
I don't think my ex would be very surprised, but I haven't seen or spoken to her in several years. On the other hand, determining that transition was "right" for me cost me a relationship that lasted 3-1/2 years (after my divorce). She was hardwired heterosexual. I don't blame or fault her for it, it's just who she is. A hellish situation for both of us for a while, but in the end, we all are who we are, and we do what we have to.

"Do you have any kids?"
No.

"What is your sexual orientation?"
I'm bisexual, and have been since I was 17. (I'm in my early 40s now.) I don't see any reason for that to change. Within the last 10 days, I've been out on separate dates with a man and a woman. My pool of potential dating partners may be somewhat smaller than many folks', but it's far from nonexistent.

"Have you ever been deeply suicidal?"
Yes, several times over the years. Not... quite... to the point of making an attempt, but that's only because I recognized where I was headed and got help first. I was lucky that I had close friends keeping an eagle eye on me. They weren't willing to let me go that easily.

Regards,
m.

[Sean]

Damn I'm a putz. I thought I was showing balls when I posted about my ex fiance cheating on me with the airline pilot. This takes it to another level.

[GCKansas]

Well no offense to you Sister, but my religious view on this activity consider it a sin so I can not condone your choices. I am not a bible thumper but I do believe GOD made us who we are and it is not for us to change his creation. That said I am not condemning you, that is not my place. I do have a problem with that in the work place because I am uncomfortable with it, but I have worked with a man going to a woman and I was respectful but kept my distance whenever I could. I am not an activist and allow people their choices and as long as they repect my views I will respect theirs.

[DB-Freak]

Hmmmm where does it on the bible say that sex change is a sin?

[DB-Freak]

Some of the responses here are killing me.

Seriously.

[sisterhellfyre]

[QUOTE=GCKansas]Well no offense to you Sister, but my religious view on this activity consider it a sin so I can not condone your choices. I am not a bible thumper but I do believe GOD made us who we are and it is not for us to change his creation.

Hi, GC --

The flippant answer would be to point out that "well, God made me this way, so there!", but I'm not too crazy about saying that for two reasons. One is that sarcasm doesn't make for good dialogue, and for two, I'd rather take responsibility for my own choices and my own life than blame it on God.

In the end, GC, I'll just leave it at mutual respect and call it "fair enough." As long as we leave out the "burn-her-at-the-stake" part, that's good enough for me. :-)

Regards,
m.

[GCKansas]

That all I'm saying sister, Condemn the sin, not the sinner is how the saying goes. I respect your individuality. I am glad you didn't give the flippant reply because this is a serious subject. Your choices would not stop me from associating with you or anyone else. Really the people I have the most problem with out there are the ones that flaunt it and throw it in people faces. Of couse that goes for the ones who haven't chosen your route as well. It is just that most people I have come in contact with that have gone the sex change process are the ones that dress trashy and lack any moral fiber what so ever. Those are really the people I have a problem dealing with but like I said there are people like that on both sides and I have a problem with them too. If anyone chooses to change their sex do it with some class.

[bronco militia]

To bronco_militia: You'd fire me, huh? Bummer... but it would be more your loss of a good employee than it would be skin off my butt. I know that I'm fortunate in having a great place to work, where I can be (and become) who I am. I know several other TS folk whose work environment would be hostile. And it severely crimps their happiness in life. (Side note, not a threat: in more and more places around the country, firing me because of my gender status would be grounds to sue, and the suit would have an excellent chance of success.)

.

Since Colorado is no fault state, I could fire you at any time for just about any reason. That is if you live in Colorado.

anyway, you came to a football forum to air your dirty little secret so cry me ****ing river.

[DB-Freak]

Since Colorado is no fault state, I could fire you at any time for just about any reason. That is if you live in Colorado.

anyway, you came to a football forum to air your dirty little secret so cry me ****ing river.
O we got ourselves a tough guy here don't we?

[elsid13]

Is it football season yet????/

[Mtbrncofn]

Between this thread and the "Gays in Sports" thread, I sure have learned a lot about my fellow posters in the last couple of weeks!

[errand]

LMAO!!!

The gay thread and now this??

O boy Errand must be sick to his stomach right now.

No..I'm not sick to my stomach. People can live the way they want. It bothers me not...I don't approve of it, nor would I consider them normal. Just one man's opinion on the subject.

.....all I've said is that since you guys legitimize one person's abnorma lor immoral behavior...your gonna have to legitimize the next freak show that comes along.

As for sisterhellfyre....I think it must be sad to not know if your a man or woman. Hope it works out for you...but I've heard numerous times where those who got the operation wish they hadn't later...and that people of your persuasion have a high rate of suicide, alcoholism, and drug abuse.

[Taco John]

Hi, gang --

This was an interesting article. Not least because I'm an M2F transexual myself, and currently in the process of changing from "man" to "woman." Nope, no kidding! I started on the process last September, gradually changing my wardrobe, letting my hair and nails grow, etc... adding up subtle cues... and I've been on hormone treatment with estrogen and progesterone for six weeks now. The drugs are beginning to change my body, and the biggest problem I have right now is impatience. The more that happens, the more I'm ready and eager for more changes to occur.

I'm planning to have The Surgery about 3 years from now, when I can take a loan against my 401K to pay for the procedure. I'm fortunate in that I won't need a facial remodeling surgery; I've always had fairly fine-boned features, small hands, and so on, so it's almost like my body was halfway there to begin with. I "pass" pretty well on the street right now, and that will only become even more so as I continue with the hormones. Shop clerks, restaurant workers & etc call me "ma'am" more often than not. Even when I'm not wearing any makeup at all, I can see a hesitation in their eyes as they try to decide whether I'm a "sir" or a "ma'am." Much of the time, they choose the "safe" option and just say "May I help you?" without any gender honorifics. Like the Army veteran quoted at the end of the article, I may be a big girl... I'm 5'11" and 160... but I'm definitely a girl.

And if I'm going to do it, I'd darned well better do it up good: don't you know that tall blonde longhaired women attract a LOT of second looks??? [laugh]

The USA Today article was dead-on about some of the challenges that transitioning people face in the workplace. My health insurance has an exception clause specifically denying any benefit or coverage for supplies, services, treatments or procedures for "sexual transformation." For some M2Fs, between genital surgery, facial surgery, and electrolysis, the bill can run up to $75,000. You could look at it as a measure of how committed transitioners are to being or becoming who they feel they were supposed to be: even the prospect of having to come up with that kind of money doesn't stop them.

Making my transition at work has really been pretty easy -- but I also realize how fortunate and blessed I am in that. I work for a medium-sized family-owned business that supplies art materials and equipment to the Pacific Northwest. I've been there for 14 years now, thru thick, thin, divorce and health problems. When I started seeing a counselor to talk about gender issues and confusions back in 2003, I informed the owners of the company, in general terms, of what I was doing. (They're friends as well as supervisors, and regard me as part of the company "family.") As I decided that transitioning was right for me, and as I got closer to starting on it, I kept my supervisors well-informed, answering any questions they had.

Together, we plotted out a strategy for how to share the news with the rest of the staff. I shared that info back in January, and I'm going "full-time" to live as a woman -- to live as myself -- in about another month. :-)

Most of the people I work with have been really great about it. One or two men gave me the "fisheye" at first, but they've come around to accept the change as they've seen that I'm serious about it. It's not some wild harebrained idea that I'll eventually forget about. Most of the women I work with have been fascinated at seeing the changes, and they've had lots of questions. They've also offered support of all kinds, from makeup tips to constructive comments about clothing colors or styles. One woman, the assistant general manager of the company, even brought me a bagful of "extra" makeup colors and products that she doesn't use.

I guess I'd say the key to making a successful transition at work is information. What has worked for me has been to be open and clear about what I'm doing. I knew as I got started that the process would take a while. It's not like I could afford to take a month off, go away male and come back female. I also knew I didn't want to just show up one day in a dress and makeup and say "I'm M***** now." That would not have worked. I'm also not going to be a "femi-Nazi" about my coworkers referring to me as "he" or "she." I'll request "she," but I realize they've known me for 13+ years now as "he." It's going to take a while for them to get used to. I've promised to be gentle with them.

I figure that people tend to fear the unknown, and gender-switchers like me are among the greatest of unknowns. I did the math once, and came up with a figure something like 1:60,000 will ever begin or make a gender switch. That's not a real high ratio! Given that number, I figure that if I want people to accept and respect what I'm doing, I have to be willing to share information with them. If y'all have any questions, please feel free to ask.

You may fire when ready... :-)

Regards,
m.



Very interesting... I'll never understand it, as I'm wired male, through and through. But I can accept that you're not. I have my own theories as to the hows and whys this happens, but it's intertwined with my religious/spiritual beliefs and aren't really that important.

You might be interested in reading this thread over at Chiefs Planet (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=116256&highlight=raise). One of their most popular posters came out with the revelation that he felt deep down to be a "she." You might be able to relate...

[Taco John]

You know, how the hell is clean allowed to have an avatar like that? That's just repulsive.



It disgusts me too, though I find it to have a redeeming art quality to it that I can't deny. So in that sense, I find it compelling.

[Garcia Bronco]

It disgusts me too, though I find it to have a redeeming art quality to it that I can't deny. So in that sense, I find it compelling.


I think it's disgusting...but I have all that crap turned off.

[Spider]

well sisterhellfire , I hope all works out for you , I dont understand your position , but then it doesnt matter what I understand , all that matters is what will make you happy ..
good luck .......

[Taco John]

Hmmmm where does it on the bible say that sex change is a sin?



The Bible posits that the body is a temple... But we live in America, hence we live in hypocrisy as far as that goes. The amount of pollutants that come through our water and the hormones in our food are enough to turn that whole "body is a temple" thing into a joke over here. We are grown much larger than any people in the world, and it's not because of natural evolution...

[Taco John]

I think it's disgusting...but I have all that crap turned off.



I need to implement an ignore avatar function...

Always so damn much to do... always so damn far behind...

[bombquixote]

LOL!!!

I'm a transexual too....

i am malcom x!

this thread rules.

[TheNextStep]

.....all I've said is that since you guys legitimize one person's abnorma lor immoral behavior...your gonna have to legitimize the next freak show that comes along.

And I suppose that what I would ask would be why would you not legitimize it? Christian morals say that what sister is doing is a sin... but Christian ethics recognize that the fact that another person is a sinner does not give you the right to ostracize, judge, or discriminate against them. Furthermore, one sin is no greater than another, is it? Sin is sin. So what about greedy people? What about obese people? Why do they not get treated in the same manner as sister is treated? Why is sister viewed as "abnormal" whereas a somebody who commits some other type of sin - adultery, sloth, etc - is viewed as being, yes, a sinner, but, no, not abnormal?

That's what ethics are about. To the Christian, it isn't a matter of whether or not it is a sin. To believers, it is and there is no questioning that. That said, does the fact that she sins give you the right - as a good, loving Christian who is trying to walk as Jesus walked - to treat her any differently than you would anybody else or to deny them any rights that you would grant to anybody else?

That's in your own bible, man...

To put it another way, WWJD?

[Psi]

You guys are so slow to imitate the greatness that is the Planet...

Seriously, though. Congrats to sisterhellfyre for finally starting to get things going in the right direction (and I know what you mean about the impatience; I'm only 19, but each day I go without getting on hormones or just doing SOMETHING to get things moving feels like an eternity). People may not understand, but that's fine. I don't understand some of their more socially acceptable quirks, I'm sure.

I am who I am. I'm a girl. I ended up with a male body, somehow. If I knew exactly why it occurred, I'd be the first. Do I know how to fix it? Well, my only options are to try to transition or off myself, so I guess I'll have to give the former a go first.

Funny thing, though. People always say, "It's what's on the inside that counts." Until you present this to them... then, sometimes, their brains explode into a puddle of hypocrisy.

Very interesting... I'll never understand it, as I'm wired male, through and through. But I can accept that you're not. I have my own theories as to the hows and whys this happens, but it's intertwined with my religious/spiritual beliefs and aren't really that important.

You might be interested in reading this thread over at Chiefs Planet (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=116256&highlight=raise). One of their most popular posters came out with the revelation that he felt deep down to be a "she." You might be able to relate...I'm popular! I'm popular!

[Pat Bowlen]

You're only 19, though. You don't know anything right now, especially if you haven't even figured out your gender yet.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You're only 19, though. You don't know anything right now, especially if you haven't even figured out your gender yet.

Bingo. We have a winner here.

[Psi]

Bingo. We have a winner here.Correct.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/WooWoo/awinnerisyoudumbassolympics.gif

I'm fully certain of my gender. I've been absolutely certain for at least five or six years, and pretty much knew as far back as fifteen years ago. Regardless of my love of sports, regardless of the expectations and influences society has thrown at me, I've basically always considered myself a girl. Why? Again, no one knows. But I know me.

The endless repression, the neverending soul-searching, the fear of others finding out or what they may do when they find out... it takes a lot out of you. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. If I could "fix" this (by which I mean to say, give myself the body of my choice... a "fix" that makes me happy or comfortable with having a male body would basically erase my very being, and I don't think that sounds like a great idea) by snapping my fingers, I would. But that's not possible, so I and everyone like me will just have to deal with this as best we can.

Well, those of us that don't kill themselves. I believe the official "young transsexual suicide rate" is something like 67%, and that's without even taking into account those who off themselves for mysterious reasons (like if I'd killed myself prior to telling anyone in "real life"... nobody would have had a clue, apparently).

The temptation to just end it is still strong from time to time, but the guilt is too overpowering to ever consider actually going through with it.

[broncogary]

Correct.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/WooWoo/awinnerisyoudumbassolympics.gif

I'm fully certain of my gender. I've been absolutely certain for at least five or six years, and pretty much knew as far back as fifteen years ago. Regardless of my love of sports, regardless of the expectations and influences society has thrown at me, I've basically always considered myself a girl. Why? Again, no one knows. But I know me.



Is is that you throw like a girl? :dummy:

[Psi]

I was a good baseball player, thank you very much. I'd like to see you hit an inside-the-park home run and make All-Stars while also desperately needing glasses.

[TheNextStep]

Look, Psi, though I do not even REMOTELY have any idea why you and sister would make the choices that you've made, I have no problems defending your rights to make them. Why do you want to do it? Hell I don't know...

But I do know this:

The temptation to just end it is still strong from time to time, but the guilt is too overpowering to ever consider actually going through with it.

There's only one problem in this world that you can't get over... and that's being dead. Everything else is fixable. It might not be easy, but it can be fixed.

[Psi]

Pretty much.

I mean, you can always kill yourself, right? Not like you've gotta book a reservation well in advance or anything, so I should, at the very least, see where I can go before giving that option serious consideration.

[-Slap-]

And I suppose that what I would ask would be why would you not legitimize it? Christian morals say that what sister is doing is a sin... but Christian ethics recognize that the fact that another person is a sinner does not give you the right to ostracize, judge, or discriminate against them. Furthermore, one sin is no greater than another, is it? Sin is sin. So what about greedy people? What about obese people? Why do they not get treated in the same manner as sister is treated? Why is sister viewed as "abnormal" whereas a somebody who commits some other type of sin - adultery, sloth, etc - is viewed as being, yes, a sinner, but, no, not abnormal?


I agree with the central message of your post, but I don't know if I would have used obese people as an example. Obese people might not be as openly persecuted as someone who's trans-gender, but they certainly experience discrimination on a daily basis. Even in a country with more obese people than any other, really large people are generally perceived as less efficient and lazier than others, especially in the workplace.

Gays and fat people are among the few remaining groups of people that can be ridiculed in public anymore. Is it because many people consider those conditions to be a matter of choice and not a determined at birth? Maybe its just because people like laughing at mean jokes, just like they like listening to gossip.

[Pat Bowlen]

I was a good baseball player, thank you very much. I'd like to see you hit an inside-the-park home run and make All-Stars while also desperately needing glasses.
So did you just wear the panties over the jock strap, or what?

[Merlin]

To use the Bible to argue for or against is a non-starter. First the Bible is not the Book of God for all people. Second, there is the separation of church and religion. Last, but definitely not least, it would be absurd for most of us to abide by all the teachings of the Bible considering that many of its concerns are counter our general beliefs. Here are couple of examples.

1. You know that little thing they throw in a football game.... yeah! that pigskin thing... Well we are not supposed to ever touch it (and lets not talk about eating the animal).

2. Now, those of you who still have slaves make sure you treat them well, and as a reference read the bible. Yes, the Bible does accept slavery.

BTW, those are just simple examples and there are many more. It is because of these reasons that many times bible thumping individuals can be hypocritical. They claim The Book as the ultimate source of knowledge, yet there are a number of areas they totally ignore because of their obvious inconsistencies.

The Bible like all other great religious documents is full of wisdom and insight into the human condition, but the minute we start attributing to it a moral compass that is to be literally interpreted, we are guaranteed to be enveloped by a moral ethics shrouded in the guise of the bible, but driven by someone's personal bias (since it is the personal bias that selects what elements of the bible are relevant and which are not).

[sisterhellfyre]

Hi gang --

(Apologies in advance if this post sounds a bit... sentimental... but I think the hormones are making me a bit mushy tonight. It happens every now & again.)

To Taco John: Thanks for the link over to ChiefsPlanet. I was touched by Psi's story, and ... well, the rest is history. If you'd be willing to email or PM me sometime, I'd like to hear your religious/spiritual viewpoints and how they might account for folks like me and Psi.

For myself, I gave up a while back on trying to figure out the "how" and "why" of it all. Neurophysiology may yet provide some clues at some point in the future as scientists map the structural and organizational differences between male and female brains. It may be possible, somehow, for a "female" brain to end up in a "male" body. But that's all conjecture at best right now, and for me as a casual amateur at hard science, it's not a good use of my time to speculate. I'd rather spend my energy on going on from here.

To errand: "legitimize the next freak show"? I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at your phrasing there. It has been my goal, since I started transition, to NOT be a freak show. To do it with some class, some style, and be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror. :-)

And thanks, errand, for your empathy in "it must be sad not knowing if you're a man or woman." You nailed that one: it's a strange and difficult place to live. My very first time "out", a couple years ago, I heard an M2F speaker who put her finger right on it. She said she'd always wanted to walk up to someone on the street, just a random stranger, and ask "How does it feel to wake up in the morning and *know* that you are a man?" Nobody else had ever said it, in my hearing, so succinctly. It made me cry, but it also let me know I wasn't alone. It lifted a huge weight off my soul. I'll be forever grateful for that.

To TNS: Day-yum, brother! Never thought I'd call a Raider fan "brother," but I have a lot of respect for your viewpoints and what you wrote. Thanks. :-)

And to Psi: You go, girl! I'm glad you're here, and didn't take the suicide option. I wish sometimes I had learned what I know now when I was your age, but that kind of regret also isn't constructive. In some ways I had it easier than you did, but I also had a lot more work to do to get to this point. Through all the years, no matter where I went or what I did, underneath it all I had this vague uneasy feeling, like a hollowness in my soul. A feeling that I was somehow an impostor, a fake, trying desperately to figure out and play by the rules of some game I didn't like, didn't understand, and didn't really want to play -- but I had no idea I had any options. And if people around me figured out "the truth" about me, I'd be in deep trouble... even if I couldn't have verbalized what that "truth" was, either. I know I'm on the right track now because that hollow feeling is gone. I don't miss it. :-)

Regards,
m.

[TheNextStep]

Slap - I agree that fat people are discriminated against but I don't see anybody touting the bible or their religious belief to justify said discrimination. That's the only reason I felt comfortable using that example. In general, however, I agree with you.

Merlin - I'm not even talking about whether the Bible is right or wrong, good, bad, or indifferent. My point is that, whether you believe in it or not, it does not say that it is okay to discriminate against one type of sinner over another.

That said, two things:

1. A football isn't literally made out of pigskin, nor was it ever. It was originally made from a pig's bladder, but that stopped in around 1869. From then 'til now, footballs have been made of rubber.

2. The scriptures that you're quoting regarding slavery is Ephsians 6:5 - 6:8, which says,

[5] Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
[6] Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
[7] With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
[8] Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

You know how I know that? Because I've researched this very subject in the past. You see, in America during slavery times, there was a large push for whites to minister to slaves. They wanted not only to use them as slaves but, ironically, to save their souls. The problem with that? There were several theologians at the time who already saw that slavery was wrong. In 1780, a conference of Methodist ministers at Baltimore declared that traveling preachers who owned slaves had to give them and, further, that "slavery is contrary to the laws of God, man, and nature - hurtful to society; contrary to the dictates of conscience and pure religion, and doing that which we would not other should do to us and ours." That is, mind you, nearly a century before the civil war and during a period of serious Methodist growth in the American South. They didn't stop there with grandstanding declarations, however. Oh, no. In 1784, the Methodists decided "to extirpate this abomination from among us" and gave every member of the Methodist church a choice: emancipate your slaves within 12 months or either withdraw or be excluded from Methodist societies.

The result? Slave owners started denying access to the Methodist missionaries (and the Methodists weren't alone - the Quakers, as well, took an abolitionist stand). The battle to "save the souls of the slaves" was being lost because nobody wanted these missionaries coming onto their plantations and talking to their slaves about abolition or the fact that they were equal to the masters, etc.

So... what does that have to do with Ephesians? Well, that was the part of scripture used during the second great revival, in another attempt to save the souls of the slaves, by the Baptist church. They used that passage to say that, essentially, the message is that if you came to God in bondage, so must you remain. The missionaries sold it by telling the slave owners that once a slave was saved and taught that God wanted him to remain a slave and to think only of his master, that slave would become more productive. Once that was spread around, plantation owners were satisfied and again allowed missionaries to minister to the slaves - with the understanding that this scripture was interpreted this way.

Here's the catch. Look up Ephesians 6:9 and what it says. It say, "And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." See, they never mentioned that verse. That was their compromise... because THAT verse, which immediately follows the very scripture they were using to tell people to remain in bondage says that the Masters must do the same for the slaves as they do for him... because "neither is there respect of persons with him." The bible says - and always has - that the slaves and masters were equals in the eyes of the Lord.

Sure, Christians may have used the bible to justify slavery by way of the scriptures... but the FACT is that what they taught was the exact opposite of what the scripture said!

Furthermore, another piece of scripture used to support the "Bible okays slavery" argument is 1 Corinthians 7... but, again, look at the whole text rather than just the pieces that people have picked out in order to further their own agenda. 1 Corinthians 7:22 once again says that all men are equal in the eyes of the Lord by stating, "For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant."

Whether you believe that what the Bible says is correct or not... whether you are a Christian, a Muslim, or an atheist, you cannot say that the Bible supports slavery. The only reason that thought even exists today is a result of the American Slave trade and a deal struck between missionaries and plantation owners and the compromise they used to accomplish it.

[Taco John]

To Taco John: Thanks for the link over to ChiefsPlanet. I was touched by Psi's story, and ... well, the rest is history. If you'd be willing to email or PM me sometime, I'd like to hear your religious/spiritual viewpoints and how they might account for folks like me and Psi.



Well, the long and short of it is that I believe in reincarnation. I believe that folks have latent memories from past lives. Most can't access these memories, but I believe they are there. I also believe there to be a biological/hormonal component to it. I don't believe that people just "go gay." I think they were either created that way (biological malfunction), or are affected by the spiritual aspect (latent spiritual memory).

Some would call my beliefs new age beliefs. I would challenge them with Biblical scriptures that I believe clearly point to reincarnation. I believe it to be an old-age belief that got weeded out for several reasons.

[Spider]

Well, the long and short of it is that I believe in reincarnation. I believe that folks have latent memories from past lives. Most can't access these memories, but I believe they are there. I also believe there to be a biological/hormonal component to it. I don't believe that people just "go gay." I think they were either created that way (biological malfunction), or are affected by the spiritual aspect (latent spiritual memory).

Some would call my beliefs new age beliefs. I would challenge them with Biblical scriptures that I believe clearly point to reincarnation. I believe it to be an old-age belief that got weeded out for several reasons.
well according to that Link LABronx put up , I was a Woman in Russia ..... :kiddingme

[TheNextStep]

well according to that Link LABronx put up , I was a Woman in Russia ..... :kiddingme
Too bad they didn't have porn sites back then, Spidey. Ya could have been famous...

[Boogerboots]

Well that's it for another show. Special thanks to our guests. If anything, we have learned here that despite all the misinformation and blind hatred that some people have to those that are trans-gendered, we must understand this. That underneath it all we are all human beings and as such we all deserve some semblence of respect. Afterall, like the old saying goes, it's what's inside that counts. So until next time... be good to each other.
V
http://www.wvah.com/programs/jerryspringer/jerryspringer.jpg

[Merlin]

Nextstep,

I think you are missing my point. Yes slaves and masters were equals in the eyes of the lord, but the bible nonetheless accepts slavery and encourages slave to listen to their masters (as you clearly illustrated). Regardless of how the lord views slaves and their masters, slavery is still a morally accepted practice within the text. And as I stated, there are innumerable other passages that go counter our common perception of right and wrong. Accordingly, any attempt to ground a moral code on a literal interpretation of the bible is bound to fail because of its inconsistencies with our present mores and ethical standards. That being said there is no shortage of people attempting to do so, but more often than not, these attempts are an articulation of their personal biases and prejudice since the bible is not used by them in its totality as a source for proper and legal moral conduct.

PS, as I am sure you are aware, there is no passage either in the Old or New Testament (I cannot speak to the Quran) stating abortion is a sin, even though it was a practice available to that time period. All attempts at justifying arguments against abortion are based on a symbolic interpretation of the bible with regards to the sanctity of life. BTW, I am not trying to start a debate about abortion, but rather am trying to illustrate the problematic nature of basing a moral and legal code on the infallibility of the bible.

[Spider]

Too bad they didn't have porn sites back then, Spidey. Ya could have been famous...
Ha! I still claim I was a lesbian

[TheNextStep]

Merlin - actually I think that you missed my point. Just as the verse states that slaves should listen to their masters, it also states that masters must "do the same unto them" regarding everything that it just said that the slaves were supposed to do. That's not advocating equality?

As for abortion, I'm not arguing about abortion. Still, I don't think that the idea of the sanctity of life is confined to believers in the Bible. I honestly don't think that's the central issue in that debate. The central issue is when life starts. If life starts at conception, as the anti-abortion side claims, then, yes, the bible does say that abortion is a sin by saying "Thou Shalt Not Kill." If, however, life starts at birth, as the pro-choice crowd says, then your argument holds water.

Lastly, I want some props for setting you straight about the damned pigskin!

[Merlin]

Merlin - actually I think that you missed my point. Just as the verse states that slaves should listen to their masters, it also states that masters must "do the same unto them" regarding everything that it just said that the slaves were supposed to do. That's not advocating equality?!

As you know, slavery is about being a property. The bible requires that the masters treat their slaves well, but the latter are nonetheless slaves. And I quote:

Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

I think you get my point. As to abortion, again you missed my point. The argument that is grounded on the bible is strictly based on the sanctity of life since there is no argument against it in the bible. Yes, the discussions in the past couple of decades have focused on issues of when life begins, but the discussions as they relate to the bible have always hinged on the sanctity of life. In fact, the whole notion of a "culture of life" is based on the argument of sanctity of life as symbolized in the bible.

As to the "thou shalt not kill" command, well, they never referred to abortion as killing even though it was practiced then (why not include it explicitly?), and like many other contradictions in the bible, this one has its own, "an eye for an eye" (I am not stating this is related to abortion, but rather pointing out the inconsistencies within the text).

Finally, I am not sure how much props is required. Yes, pigskin is not used, but are you correct about footballs being only rubber? I was under the impression they were made of leather. Either way you are owed props!

[TheNextStep]

Merlin, I think we've reached a point where we'll agree to disagree. At any rate, my point wasn't to argue the merits of the bible but rather to point out that if one DOES believe in the Bible, they must act accordingly. If a Christian wants to say that he's trying to be like Jesus, well... he'd better really be trying or I think he's hypocritical and full of sh*t.

Oh, and some are leather... but I'm pretty sure most of them are vulcanized rubber. That's what Cecil says (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_121.html), anyway... and I freakin' dig Cecil so I'm not arguing with it.

[Nuggets4]

If a Christian wants to say that he's trying to be like Jesus, well... he'd better really be trying or I think he's hypocritical and full of sh*t.

Amen. The same should be said for all of the world's faiths. I'm not Christian, but I always loved the phrase "Love the sinner, hate the sin". That's the way it should be.

[Pat Bowlen]

Is Merlin really arguing that the Bible says slavery is ok? And, if so, does he agree?

I'm just too lazy/drunk to read the entirety of those posts.

[TheNextStep]

Yes, he's arguing that the bible not only okays slavery but that it encourages it. No, however, he's not arguing that as one of his beliefs. He's using it as an example in order to say that the bible itself is moot when it comes to questions of morality.



(at least that's how I understood it, Merlin. If I got that wrong, do correct me)

[Merlin]

Yes, he's arguing that the bible not only okays slavery but that it encourages it. No, however, he's not arguing that as one of his beliefs. He's using it as an example in order to say that the bible itself is moot when it comes to questions of morality.
(at least that's how I understood it, Merlin. If I got that wrong, do correct me)
Pretty close. With regards to slavery, I would not argue that the bible necessarily encourages it (although some passages come close), but it certainly does not disavow it, and it treats said individuals as property thus leading to text that is clearly "unchristian" in nature.

Also I am not saying that the bible has no value as a moral text, but I definitely question its literal use as a source of ultimate moral definition because of its internal inconsistencies as well as some its incongruence with some of our general accepted beliefs (e.g. there are sections in the bible, if interpreted literally, that have God dictating genocide, creating miscarriages [thus abortions], etc).

The bible like many of our (humankind) great religious documents is full of wisdom and insight about the human condition, its problems as a dictum of moral behavior are usually related to the human failings and biases of interpreters rather than the text itself (unless treated literally).

Many scholars have written on this subject, and it would not take much of a search on the web to read something about it. For those of you interested in reading an in-depth analysis of the trappings of trying to literally understand the word of God I would suggest a political philosopher by the name of Eric Voegelin. His work is based on history, religious documents, and his understanding of the difficulties of "hearing" the word of God. His work takes many volumes (5 I think), it is very insightful, and not for the superficial reader. (For those of you who need to know, he is a converted Catholic).

Merlin

[fontaine]

The bible like many of our (humankind) great religious documents is full of wisdom and insight about the human condition, its problems as a dictum of moral behavior are usually related to the human failings and biases of interpreters rather than the text itself (unless treated literally).


Yes, but do you believe that those incongruities extend as heavily in the new testament? I always thought the gospels in the new testament were fairly self explainatory.

[Merlin]

Yes, but do you believe that those incongruities extend as heavily in the new testament? I always thought the gospels in the new testament were fairly self explainatory.
Yes they do. For example:

Paul commands that "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear." (Ephesians 6:5, a command repeated in 1 Timothy 6:1, Colossians 3:22, Titus 2:9, and 1 Peter 2:18,21.). And the above command is in the context of the Roman Empire, where the slavery practiced was one of the most terrible in history.

Best case scenario, lets assume religious documents are derived from the word of God, the problem is that these words be necessity are interpreted by humans and as such are bounded by history, context, discourse, political structures, social formations, geography, etc. Complicating interpretation further is that text is being interpreted by readers bound by the same constraints (btw, it is our nature to function as bounded beings since they provide the matrices from which we derive meaning). Therefore, text can never be "self explanatory," it is always in a state of interpretive flux between itself and the reader.

That being said, I am not suggesting some relativistic vortex, there are obviously interpretations that are closer to the text than others, otherwise what the hell are we discussing. What the contextual matrices do is bring forth the interpretation that is most salient to the audience in question. And the debates within a discursive community are about fleshing out those aspects that are salient.

Merlin

[ClevelandBronco2]

That being said, I am not suggesting some relativistic vortex, there are obviously interpretations that are closer to the text than others, otherwise what the hell are we discussing. What the contextual matrices do is bring forth the interpretation that is most salient to the audience in question. And the debates within a discursive community are about fleshing out those aspects that are salient.

Shoot, Merlin, we were all thinking that.

…what the hell are we discussing.

Especially that part.

http://66.49.247.155/BB/showthread.php?t=27119

[Taco John]

Well that's it for another show. Special thanks to our guests. If anything, we have learned here that despite all the misinformation and blind hatred that some people have to those that are trans-gendered, we must understand this. That underneath it all we are all human beings and as such we all deserve some semblence of respect. Afterall, like the old saying goes, it's what's inside that counts. So until next time... be good to each other.
V
http://www.wvah.com/programs/jerryspringer/jerryspringer.jpg



Ha!

[Merlin]

Shoot, Merlin, we were all thinking that.
Touche ;) :)

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

I say bravo Sister and Psi. If you can't feel comfortable in your own skin, and don't like who you are, it sucks going through each day feeling as if it and you are one big lie. It definately puts a twist on inter-office dating Ha! , but seriously, you need to do whatever you feel will make you feel whole and complete. The world is a very dark and ugly place, but don't allow some self rightous jerk make it darker for you. I can't relate, because I am to use TJ's term Hard-wired male, but I can be understanding and supportive, because that's all we have in this world is each other. To quote Jim Morrison "No one here gets out alive."

[Kaylore]

This thread is in the wrong forum. :drown: