Anyone like the Broncos?

[BroncoManCanuck]

I strongly believe that the Broncos will have an amazing season, and win the divison with at least 12 wins. But doesn't it seem like every sportswriter hates the Broncos. Almost all the articles besides denverpost, rockymountainnews, and denverbroncos.com are trashing the Broncos. Bashing us about, Clarret, the browncos, sauerbrun, and now rice.

[Kaylore]

It's a tough schedule and there are a lot of unknowns this season. I gotta say that whether we go 9-7 or 12-4, this is going to be a fun season to watch.

[BroncoManCanuck]

It's a tough schedule and there are a lot of unknowns this season. I gotta say that whether we go 9-7 or 12-4, this is going to be a fun season to watch.
I'm just saying that we deserve more credit then we are getting.

[Merlin]

I'm just saying that we deserve more credit then we are getting.
Credit for what? Shanahan has taken a very interesting bet. He has brought in a number of players with a lot of potential that could either pay big time, or live up to their past failures. If you gauge the players by their history, this is going to be one painful year for the Broncos, especially considering their schedule. But, if just 2-3 of the players he brought in play up to their potential (and I don't mean Rice), then this could be a great year. I think ESPN had it right. This could be very interesting. BTW, I am betting Shanahan and Co. got it right and we will do very well this year.

Merlin

[orange crusher]

I'm just saying that we deserve more credit then we are getting.

I agree. They made some comment last night on NFL Network about why Rice would want to end his career playing for mediocre teams like Seattle and Denver.

Nobody expected much out of Pittsburgh and Sandy Eggo last year either. A lot will depend on staying healthy, but I like the Broncos chances.

[BroncoManCanuck]

I agree. They made some comment last night on NFL Network about why Rice would want to end his career playing for mediocre teams like Seattle and Denver.

Nobody expected much out of Pittsburgh and Sandy Eggo last year either. A lot will depend on staying healthy, but I like the Broncos chances.
I saw that too.

[DarkHorse30]

I would love ALL the sportswriters, especially Denver's local writers (just the ones that are pure conjecturites.....not the NEWSwriters like Williamson, Rasizer, Saunders, George and Adams) to completely crap themselves over how bad they think the Broncos will be.

[BroncoManCanuck]

I would love ALL the sportswriters, especially Denver's local writers (just the ones that are pure conjecturites.....not the NEWSwriters like Williamson, Rasizer, Saunders, George and Adams) to completely crap themselves over how bad they think the Broncos will be.
I bet that after we win the SB this season, they will still produce a load of crap about how we suck.

[scorpio]

Mediocre. That's great. There's no such thing as mediocre in this league anymore, you either fish or cut bait. The fact is that in this era of free agency, we have a record of winning seasons (and I don't mean 9-7) that most teams would sell their souls for.

[sirhcyennek81]

thread asking on a bronco board if anyone likes the broncos...its obvious. no, no one here does.

[watermock]

Put me down for 11-5 and one playoff win. Every year, it seems like this team has a ton of question marks, but they outdid themselves his year.

I'm anticipating vastly improved special teams this year. I wonder if they will still be sending Gold down in coverage after his injury on coverage, particuliarly considering his pricetag. The Williams kid is supposed to be a demon returning punts, and we have Fatso punting. Maybe that 7th rounder can kickoff to the endzone.

The sportwriters like to rag on Clarett, he's one of their personal whipping boys. Yet, as a freshman, all they could do is fawn over him like a starstruck teenie bopper.

I'm not hot on the Rice move, but it's done. He's really up there, but conversely, he is healthy. I would of preferred an all around player like Troy Brown, but what's done is done and I hope Jerry can provide that #4 that Mr. Nintendo loves to run.

If somehow C. Brown fully heals, and Pryce's back holds up, with Warren in a contract year, we might have a pretty damn good front 7.

Gold was an odd signing, but he's better than some people give him credit for. It was just puzzling to move Williams from Will, where he's played his whole career. This is a gamble.

[Rausch]

Honestly....no.

I think it's a three horse race between Denber, the Cha-gahs, and KC.

And the team with the least injuries wins...

[Old Dude]

I'm cautiously optimistic.

The "plan" revisited.

We start with an evaluation of last year's team. It's no mystery. Tons of yardage, but poor red-zone performance. High rankings in offensive and defensive yardage, but a poor turnover ratio and a horrible punting game (both in terms of kicking and receiving). Bottom line is that the team frequently started in bad field position - - offensively and defensively - - then worked like mad to move the ball (or to stuff the opponent's drive) - - but fizzled in close.

Our sack numbers weren't bad, but plenty of them were coverage sacks, and the stats were skewed a little by a couple weak opponents. (The trainwreck that was once the Tennessee Titans being one of them). You just can't help but wonder how much stronger the D would have been if Pryce hadn't been crippled.

We got mixed results from our rookie class. Williams looked great. Bell started slow due to the finger injury in training camp, followed by another injury in Jax, but finished looking pretty good. Watts tore it up in camp, but wore down as the season went on and dropped some potential TDs. Shoate & LeSeuer accomplished very little.

Dan Neil officially went over the hill, but Carlisle didn't look bad and Foster made good progress.

Our schedule wasn't that tough. We certainly caught the Titans at the right time, and Indy rolled over for us in the regular season finale. The Saints and Panthers were both sputtering when we played them, and the Texans weren't much of a factor.

On the other hand, we let wins slip away in Jacksonville and San Diego, and in the snowstorm against the Raiders. We had a great performance against the Chiefs at home, but a lousy one on the road.

Once again, our secondary got hobbled just as we entered the playoffs against the deadliest aerial attack in the NFL. Walls out. Middlebrooks out. And the result was an undrafted rookie with hardly any starts under his belt doing his best against the record shattering Colts.

After all that, Heyward, Droughns, Herndon and Putzier want more money.

We keep Putz and give up the other three. We let Spragan go, too. Pryce and Plummer both take cuts.

The Skins make us an offer we can't refuse. We pick up what promises to be a decent 1st round pick next year, in a deeper draft, and a 3rd and 4th to boot.

We use our top remaining pick to go after a bona fide punt returner - - ie, a guy who actually returned punts in college, as opposed to our usual strategy of putting some generic rookie with speed back there - - but one who has never handled a punt return and is supposed to learn on the job. In the NFL. I can't complain about this move.

We go after an all-pro punter who has issues with his curent team. A problem child to be sure, but unless he gets suspended, he can't possibly be anything but an improvement over what we had before.

We even bring back Burns.

So special teams was obviously a high priority, and the moves to address it look pretty solid, even if they weren't very sexy.

Next issue: defense. Well we went and got the only Denver LB who showed any ability to ballhawk here over the last 3 or 4 years - - Ian Gold. Like him or hate him, he brings experience and speed and he is an upgrade over Spragan, who was his backup to start with.

We don't have the money to bring in a bunch of all-pro DLs or secondary people. We can't even afford to pay Herndon and Heyward what they want. So we spend our 2d and 3rd picks on a couple of young DBs with good potential (and hope that we have better luck this year than last with that part of the draft) And we bring in a whole google of guys from the Browns, who are basically unloading a bunch of busts and dissapointments and we hope a change of scenery and a better surrounding cast can make a difference for one or two of them. And we just have to keep our fingers crossed on Pryce. (But we hardly had him at all last year, so maybe we start out this year a little ahead on that score.)

Oh yeah. Rice and Clarrett. Lots of publicity but not really moves that will make or break this team one way or the other. Rice might be of some help as a player coach (by example if nothing else) and Turner likes Clarrett and Turner seems to always know what he's doing. And Ron Dayne ... I don't have any high hopes for him, but he can't be any more useless than Garrison Hearst was last year.

I think we once again have the makings of a fine defense. If we can get something out of Brown or Warren, I think this defense will actually be better than last year's version, which ranked way up there.

And if our punter can give the defense some field position to work with, that wouldn't hurt either. It's easier to make big defensive plays when you've got a team backed up, than when they always start at their 45 yard line.

On offense, Droughns was not the answer. He did not have the outside speed and opponents eventually caught onto that. Bell is ultimately a far more dangerous back. Not quite in the Portis category, but good enough to do a lot of damage in this system. Lalie has arrived, at least as a long ball threat, Smith is still dangerous, and Watts should improve somewhat, though I think, like Lelie, he won't break out until year number 3.

The biggest reason for optimism though is the O-Line. This team, like most, lives or dies with that. I think this is the year when Foster becomes a force. If I'm right, lots of good things will happen out there.

12-4. Division winner. And depending on the health of the squad at playoff time, there is no telling how far they can go.

There. Call me a homer, but that's the most optimistic prediction I've made since I came to the Mane.

[Dukes]

When have the Broncos ever gotten any respect?? Other than the '98 season....

[Rascal]

I agree with that for the most part Old Dude and excellent post.

Although I think Foster will improve he wasn't quite the road blocker his size would indicate. A lot of time he simply looked lost out there. Lepsis is on the downslope of his career due to his age and lack of size since his play depends upon quickness. Tom Nalen is tough as nails and tons of experience. But you have to wonder if age is going to take its effect this year or not. Hamilton is coming on. He is undersized (even for us) but makes up for it with effort and technique. The other guard position is a crap shoot. Carlisle would seem to have the inside track, but with the addition of Clement you wonder if they will move him there and there is the guy in Europe Clabo who everyone is so high about.

Our line has needed some TLC for years, and with Foster and Hamilton (although playing out of position) being the only true addition age is beginning to take its toll. If Nalen stays healthy we should be okay, but you have to wonder how long he can keep it up. We should have grabbed Demulling this year when we had the chance. Damn you shanny.

[Needa Pass Rush]

I'm just saying that we deserve more credit then we are getting.

We were vastly underated and mostly overlooked when we snatched the Lombardi out of the hands of a Green Bay team that assumed it was theirs. Let 'em discount the mighty Denver Broncos! :alky:

[Bronx33]

We were vastly underated and mostly overlooked when we snatched the Lombardi out of the hands of a Green Bay team that assumed it was theirs. Let 'em discount the mighty Denver Broncos! :alky:


I agree! screw em all, let em over look us thats all good! in the W department.

[Ray Finkle]

Hey wow, another useless thead.....

[bloodsunday]

Great review OldDude! I agree with 90% of this.


We start with an evaluation of last year's team. It's no mystery. Tons of yardage, but poor red-zone performance. High rankings in offensive and defensive yardage, but a poor turnover ratio and a horrible punting game (both in terms of kicking and receiving). Bottom line is that the team frequently started in bad field position - - offensively and defensively - - then worked like mad to move the ball (or to stuff the opponent's drive) - - but fizzled in close.

This is really how the team has laid out for about 3 years now. Good stats, terrible playmaking.


We got mixed results from our rookie class. Williams looked great. Bell started slow due to the finger injury in training camp, followed by another injury in Jax, but finished looking pretty good. Watts tore it up in camp, but wore down as the season went on and dropped some potential TDs. Shoate & LeSeuer accomplished very little.

Also a trademark of this team lately.


Dan Neil officially went over the hill, but Carlisle didn't look bad and Foster made good progress.

Foster was okay for a first year starter. I wasn't overly impressed with Coop. He has been with Denver a while. Despite the fact that he wasn't a starter until now, I hoped for more. Hopefully someone can make a strong impression and solidify this spot (Clabo, Meyers, Spikes, Carlisle). I'd also like to see Meyers impress so that we can cut bait with Leach and save a roster spot for either a 3rd QB or a kick off specialist.


Our schedule wasn't that tough. We certainly caught the Titans at the right time, and Indy rolled over for us in the regular season finale. The Saints and Panthers were both sputtering when we played them, and the Texans weren't much of a factor.

But this is where you have to be careful when comparing this season. Our schedule LOOKED tough when it came out. It wasn't until the season unfoled that teams like Tennessee bombed and Indy gave us a game. I remember when the schedule came out and December was Miami, @KC, @Ten, and Indy -- I almost died. Then Ricky goes to Africa, Indy takes a week off, and Tennessee loses all their starters. That is why we can't get too caught up in how tough our schedule looks for this season. We just have to play the games at let it unfold.


On the other hand, we let wins slip away in Jacksonville and San Diego, and in the snowstorm against the Raiders. We had a great performance against the Chiefs at home, but a lousy one on the road.

This is where we need playmakers to emerge. Everyone of these games would have turned on one or two key plays. You listening Watts?


Once again, our secondary got hobbled just as we entered the playoffs against the deadliest aerial attack in the NFL. Walls out. Middlebrooks out. And the result was an undrafted rookie with hardly any starts under his belt doing his best against the record shattering Colts.

There is really only one team in the NFL that could do what Indy did to us. I try not to get caught up in having 27 DBs on the roster just reacting to that one bitter moment. Instead, let's get a home playoff game and avoid playing Indy in that dumbass dome again. That is a better strategy than trying to sign a roster full of DBs.


We use our top remaining pick to go after a bona fide punt returner - - ie, a guy who actually returned punts in college, as opposed to our usual strategy of putting some generic rookie with speed back there - - but one who has never handled a punt return and is supposed to learn on the job. In the NFL. I can't complain about this move.

I think Williams is a man waiting to explode. He has playmaker written all over him. He returned like 50% of his INTs in college for TDs. He wasn't an every possession returner (he was too valuable), so that worries me a little. But when he got his hands on the ball, he was like lightning.


We go after an all-pro punter who has issues with his curent team. A problem child to be sure, but unless he gets suspended, he can't possibly be anything but an improvement over what we had before.

For as much grief as I have given Sauerbrun, this kind of stuff happens all the time. For whatever reason a guy falls out of favor with management and moves on. He may wear out his welcome here in a few seasons, but if those are Pro Bowl seasons, who cares?


So special teams was obviously a high priority, and the moves to address it look pretty solid, even if they weren't very sexy.

Defense is debatable, but there is no doubt here that we have upgraded the special teams. This should be our most improved unit without question.


Next issue: defense. Well we went and got the only Denver LB who showed any ability to ballhawk here over the last 3 or 4 years - - Ian Gold. Like him or hate him, he brings experience and speed and he is an upgrade over Spragan, who was his backup to start with.

I like Gold -- a Michigan boy -- but just think we had better places to spend our one big acquisition. I think he is a good player and probably worth the money he got. Its just that our LB core is strong relative to other positions.


We don't have the money to bring in a bunch of all-pro DLs or secondary people.

Amen. For those that don't like the Browncos, what was the alternative? Keep Hayward? That is about all we could have afforded and its one friggn' player. Not an elite one either if you ask me.


We can't even afford to pay Herndon and Heyward what they want. So we spend our 2d and 3rd picks on a couple of young DBs with good potential (and hope that we have better luck this year than last with that part of the draft)

This is far and away my biggest gripe of this offseason. Our depth concerns in the secondary come down to 2 things: the health of Walls and Middlebrooks. We have some young guys and got a great UDFA in Browner. If we had just signed Herndon to the 1st round (1.6 million) tender, then we would have bought ourselves one more year to evaluate Walls and Middlebrooks. As a result we could have saved at least one draft pick (maybe 2) for other positions. Offering Herndon might have meant we couldn't bring in a guy like Rice, but instead we could have drafted a guy like Gibson.


Oh yeah. Rice and Clarrett. Lots of publicity but not really moves that will make or break this team one way or the other. Rice might be of some help as a player coach (by example if nothing else) and Turner likes Clarrett and Turner seems to always know what he's doing. And Ron Dayne ... I don't have any high hopes for him, but he can't be any more useless than Garrison Hearst was last year.

Great point! Both these moves get a ton of attention, but neither is very consequential right now. They could be depending on injuries and such. More importantly neither was an expensive acquisition. If their attitudes are right, then these moves are no brainers.


I think we once again have the makings of a fine defense. If we can get something out of Brown or Warren, I think this defense will actually be better than last year's version, which ranked way up there.

Simply put, our defense cannot play any better until our pass rush improves. The key to our whole defense, and maybe our whole season, rides on those guys. If we can rush the passer, suddenly our coverage will look better, we'll get better field position, and we'll get more turnovers. It's that simple. Now these guys just have to make it happen.


And if our punter can give the defense some field position to work with, that wouldn't hurt either. It's easier to make big defensive plays when you've got a team backed up, than when they always start at their 45 yard line.

Our special teams are improved and will help. But having a defense that wreaks havoc is also important to field position.


On offense, Droughns was not the answer. He did not have the outside speed and opponents eventually caught onto that. Bell is ultimately a far more dangerous back. Not quite in the Portis category, but good enough to do a lot of damage in this system.
I think Bell may be a better back for the system. As I have stated before, Portis was kind of a home run or nothing guy. If Bell can get the more consistent 4 - 7 yard run and combine it with explosive speed, then we will be better off. Portis simply had too many carries for zero or negative yards.


Lalie has arrived, at least as a long ball threat, Smith is still dangerous, and Watts should improve somewhat, though I think, like Lelie, he won't break out until year number 3.

Lelie needs to be more consistent on the average play (slants, outs, etc...), but had a good year. If Watts can make his 3rd year breakout this year, then our offense could be very, very good. Hard to argue with the logic that Watts needs another year, but I am hopeful.


The biggest reason for optimism though is the O-Line. This team, like most, lives or dies with that. I think this is the year when Foster becomes a force. If I'm right, lots of good things will happen out there.

I disagree here. We didn't really do anything to help our line. I get the impression that the coaching staff wants to see more from the right side of the line. Foster was good as a first year starter, but clearly needs to improve. More than anything, we need a guy to emerge as a top notch player at the RG spot.


12-4. Division winner. And depending on the health of the squad at playoff time, there is no telling how far they can go.

There. Call me a homer, but that's the most optimistic prediction I've made since I came to the Mane.

I think this is an optimistic prediction! I think our division will be tough and our schedule is likely to be tough. We have to figure a few of our "turds" will bust or get injured. So I think 9 - 7 is the worst I could see and 11 - 5 (division winner) is the best scenario I see. Of course, I see huge things (12 - 4 or better) if all our moves work out, but we have to expect a few won't. I think we are a division winner if Warren, Ekuban (as a role player), Sauerbrun, any RG, D Williams (as a returner and/or nickel guy), and Watts have good seasons. That seems like a lot, but I really don't think it is considering these guys' history. The biggest reach there may be Warren. The others have proved they are capable of those types of seasons or are on the rise.

[baja]

I'm cautiously optimistic.

The "plan" revisited.

We start with an evaluation of last year's team. It's no mystery. Tons of yardage, but poor red-zone performance. High rankings in offensive and defensive yardage, but a poor turnover ratio and a horrible punting game (both in terms of kicking and receiving). Bottom line is that the team frequently started in bad field position - - offensively and defensively - - then worked like mad to move the ball (or to stuff the opponent's drive) - - but fizzled in close.

Our sack numbers weren't bad, but plenty of them were coverage sacks, and the stats were skewed a little by a couple weak opponents. (The trainwreck that was once the Tennessee Titans being one of them). You just can't help but wonder how much stronger the D would have been if Pryce hadn't been crippled.

We got mixed results from our rookie class. Williams looked great. Bell started slow due to the finger injury in training camp, followed by another injury in Jax, but finished looking pretty good. Watts tore it up in camp, but wore down as the season went on and dropped some potential TDs. Shoate & LeSeuer accomplished very little.

Dan Neil officially went over the hill, but Carlisle didn't look bad and Foster made good progress.

Our schedule wasn't that tough. We certainly caught the Titans at the right time, and Indy rolled over for us in the regular season finale. The Saints and Panthers were both sputtering when we played them, and the Texans weren't much of a factor.

On the other hand, we let wins slip away in Jacksonville and San Diego, and in the snowstorm against the Raiders. We had a great performance against the Chiefs at home, but a lousy one on the road.

Once again, our secondary got hobbled just as we entered the playoffs against the deadliest aerial attack in the NFL. Walls out. Middlebrooks out. And the result was an undrafted rookie with hardly any starts under his belt doing his best against the record shattering Colts.

After all that, Heyward, Droughns, Herndon and Putzier want more money.

We keep Putz and give up the other three. We let Spragan go, too. Pryce and Plummer both take cuts.

The Skins make us an offer we can't refuse. We pick up what promises to be a decent 1st round pick next year, in a deeper draft, and a 3rd and 4th to boot.

We use our top remaining pick to go after a bona fide punt returner - - ie, a guy who actually returned punts in college, as opposed to our usual strategy of putting some generic rookie with speed back there - - but one who has never handled a punt return and is supposed to learn on the job. In the NFL. I can't complain about this move.

We go after an all-pro punter who has issues with his curent team. A problem child to be sure, but unless he gets suspended, he can't possibly be anything but an improvement over what we had before.

We even bring back Burns.

So special teams was obviously a high priority, and the moves to address it look pretty solid, even if they weren't very sexy.

Next issue: defense. Well we went and got the only Denver LB who showed any ability to ballhawk here over the last 3 or 4 years - - Ian Gold. Like him or hate him, he brings experience and speed and he is an upgrade over Spragan, who was his backup to start with.

We don't have the money to bring in a bunch of all-pro DLs or secondary people. We can't even afford to pay Herndon and Heyward what they want. So we spend our 2d and 3rd picks on a couple of young DBs with good potential (and hope that we have better luck this year than last with that part of the draft) And we bring in a whole google of guys from the Browns, who are basically unloading a bunch of busts and dissapointments and we hope a change of scenery and a better surrounding cast can make a difference for one or two of them. And we just have to keep our fingers crossed on Pryce. (But we hardly had him at all last year, so maybe we start out this year a little ahead on that score.)

Oh yeah. Rice and Clarrett. Lots of publicity but not really moves that will make or break this team one way or the other. Rice might be of some help as a player coach (by example if nothing else) and Turner likes Clarrett and Turner seems to always know what he's doing. And Ron Dayne ... I don't have any high hopes for him, but he can't be any more useless than Garrison Hearst was last year.

I think we once again have the makings of a fine defense. If we can get something out of Brown or Warren, I think this defense will actually be better than last year's version, which ranked way up there.

And if our punter can give the defense some field position to work with, that wouldn't hurt either. It's easier to make big defensive plays when you've got a team backed up, than when they always start at their 45 yard line.

On offense, Droughns was not the answer. He did not have the outside speed and opponents eventually caught onto that. Bell is ultimately a far more dangerous back. Not quite in the Portis category, but good enough to do a lot of damage in this system. Lalie has arrived, at least as a long ball threat, Smith is still dangerous, and Watts should improve somewhat, though I think, like Lelie, he won't break out until year number 3.

The biggest reason for optimism though is the O-Line. This team, like most, lives or dies with that. I think this is the year when Foster becomes a force. If I'm right, lots of good things will happen out there.

12-4. Division winner. And depending on the health of the squad at playoff time, there is no telling how far they can go.

There. Call me a homer, but that's the most optimistic prediction I've made since I came to the Mane.

NICE BREAK DOWN! nOW THIS IS WHAT YOU REP NOT NEWS ABOUT SOMEONES CAT.

[baja]

Opps Caps off

[Old Dude]

I would be very interested to see a breakdown comparing team ranks in the punting game (avg return yardage) with turnover ratios in general.

[Merlin]

I would be very interested to see a breakdown comparing team ranks in the punting game (avg return yardage) with turnover ratios in general.
You are right, that would be a very interesting stat. If I were to hazard a guess, it helps. Look at the Bills. Excellent special teams and very high turnover ratio last year.

Merlin

[bloodsunday]

Speaking of anyone like the Broncos... I had a conversation with a good buddy of mine from Pittsburgh. Man, they love to pick on the Broncos. He was all over us signing Rice like we just gave the guy Hayward money and promised him a starting gig! They just love rip the Broncos, it must be some type of football envy?

I told him that his dumb ass QB is riding around town on a motorcycle with no helmet, and he says, "its not against the law". I was shocked! If Ben pulled a Winslow, Pittsburgh would be screwed and he would be crying his eyes out.

Bottom line is, the other teams around the league aren't willing to live up to the same standards we have set here in Denver. Thank god we have an owner and a coach that care more about winning than what idiots like Pete Prisco and Dr Z say.

[Old Dude]

Well, I looked at it, and there's a little statistical correlation, but not enough to be significant.

In net punting average, Denver ranked 23d with 34.3 per punt. Tied for 24th-27th in terms of balls downed inside the opponents 20.

In average punt return yardage, we were 12th, with an average 9.3 per return. But only 8 teams had more fair catches.

Our takeaway/giveaway ratio was -9, which ranked in a tie for 24th-25th with Tampa Bay.

We were ranked in a tie with KC for 28th-29th in terms of takeaways.

The top teams in takeaways were:

Buffalo 39
Carolina 38
Indy, NE & Cincy: 36
Seattle: 35
Baltimore: 34
Jets, SD, NO: 33
Phil: 28

New Orleans & San Diego were 1 and 2 in net punting and tied for 7th-10th in takeaways.

Buffalo, which was 1st in takeaways, was 13th in net punting.

Carolina, which was ranked #2 in takeaways, was 9th in net punting.

Indy, tied for 3rd in takeaways, was 11th in net punting.

Cincy, also tied for 3rd in takeaways, was middleof the pack in net punting at #16.

Philly, ranked 11th in takeaways, was 7th in net punting.

But Baltimore* & Seattle which got a lot of takeaways, were in the lower half of net punting, while the Jets and Pats who also very good, were near the very bottom.

* Baltimore was one of the very best at downing punts inside the 20, though.

[Merlin]

Well, I looked at it, and there's a little statistical correlation, but not enough to be significant.
Did you actually do a statistical analysis? On face value it would seem the numbers indicate a statistical significant association. My guess is if you run the numbers you will find there is a relationship (not as defining variable, but as an influencing variable). BTW, Buffalo's punting data is skewed because half their games they are punting in Buffalo, an awful place to punt. I am sure if you look at their numbers away you will find they will rate in the top 6 or 7.

PS The point of your question is not to determine if punting and kicking define takeaways, but rather if they influence the numbers. Some teams are able to achieve many takeaways because of the nature of how the play defence (i.e. they are good at it, or they gamble a lot).

Merlin

[Cito Pelon]

If I'm a player or coach right now, I focus on whatever I did right last year, that's all I focus on, and I try to do it more often this year. You get into a mode where you're over-critiquing and it's too much mentally. You can't relax and be happy you make two good plays a game, but you have to focus on what you did right and try to make that happen more often.

[rbackfactory80]

I agree. They made some comment last night on NFL Network about why Rice would want to end his career playing for mediocre teams like Seattle and Denver.

Nobody expected much out of Pittsburgh and Sandy Eggo last year either. A lot will depend on staying healthy, but I like the Broncos chances.

As long as Jake Plummer is the Broncos QB the NFL network will never give the broncos any props. The funny thing is they all think they are legends of the game. Glen Parker, Paul Burmeister, give me a break. I am sick and tired of even watching football programs like NFL live of playbook because all they do all program long is kiss the Eagles and Patriots asses. Definitely not a fair and balanced approach to football news.

[clarker]

Mediocre. That's great. There's no such thing as mediocre in this league anymore, you either fish or cut bait. The fact is that in this era of free agency, we have a record of winning seasons (and I don't mean 9-7) that most teams would sell their souls for.I agree. In todays NFL there are 2-3 really good teams(IMO, the Pats, Eagles), 2-3 really bad teams(IMO, San Fran and Miami) and the rest could finish anywhere from 9-7 to 11-5.

Other than at the very top and very bottom, the rest of the NFL is pretty close together. I mean the media will never say it as long as Favre is playing but Denver is not any more mediocre than Green Bay.

[dbroncos31]

Mediocre. That's great. There's no such thing as mediocre in this league anymore, you either fish or cut bait. The fact is that in this era of free agency, we have a record of winning seasons (and I don't mean 9-7) that most teams would sell their souls for.
since the start of free agency, Denver has the 2nd best record, after green bay.

[watermock]

The real problem is that Shanahan always brings a decent team to the field, but has been hamstrung with some horrible FA picks, and some questionable drafts before 2002, which has really hurt the team.

We always have a decent team, not the rollercoaster types like many rivals, and mostly, we always seem to find a way to lose critical games.

Who didn't pencil in Chicago at home and Oakland at home as losses?

Losing at Indy wasn't a disgrace, giving up WAS.

IMO, the one thing about Denver is they always seem to come out flat in the third quarter, and struggle in the RedZone.

To me, this shows that the team isn't emotional enough. Being overly emotional is dumb, but this is a pretty redundant flaw I have seen again and again. Flat out of the gate in the third, and not making the CRITICAL PLAYS we need to win games.

This has happened at least 10 times. The fumble against Jacksoville by Q. The INT late last year. Giving up the huge kick return by Dante Hall a couple years ago. The pass headed for Portis that Rod Woodson picked off and took 98 yards. The Watts drops. Jakes audible where he throws the fade instead of just slamming the ball in for the TD on first down at the three. It's so frustrating.

That's why I have found alot of fault with Kubiak. I feel that when you get in the redzone, the last thing you do is go 5 wide and pull your TE and push the RB into motion to create "matchups". It's bad enough we start the cadence with only one RB and no FB, but then we pull our TE and put in a 5 wide? You don't have to listen to ME, all you have to do is look at our redzone production. Considering that the offense seemed to be able to march down the field, then seem to change it's philosphy has had me calling for Kubiak's nintendo offense on so many occasions, I can't even count them, probably because I was banging my head on the wall pissed off beyond belief how a team could go to a stretch offense on a shortened field. I just don't get it. You don't have the safety pushing up to the LOS in the redzone. He doesn't have to.

Oh well. Until Pubiak figures out that we don't have to run a 5 wide, and send Lelie on fly patterns every play, our 3rd down, and redzone is going to continue to struggle.

The horrific thing I read the other day was they are "working on multiple sets in the redzone", when it's exactly you need to be able to do, but that shouldn't be your primary redzone offense. Yeah, I know it was just passing camp, but it's terrifying nontheless.

When is Kubiak going to learn that when your in the redzone, corners are going into press coverage, the safeties are going to cheat, and you need to be able to do more than send lelie into the south stands to stretch the field?

[Atlas]

When is Kubiak going to learn that when your in the redzone, corners are going into press coverage, the safeties are going to cheat, and you need to be able to do more than send lelie into the south stands to stretch the field?

Funny how Kubiak knew how to call a red zone offense when Elway was playing but now he sucks. The fact is it all comes down to execution and Plummer is not as good at the red zone offense as Elway was. Doesn't mean Plummer can't get better I believe he will and Denver's redzone will be better this year.

[watermock]

Funny how Kubiak knew how to call a red zone offense when Elway was playing but now he sucks. The fact is it all comes down to execution and Plummer is not as good at the red zone offense as Elway was. Doesn't mean Plummer can't get better I believe he will and Denver's redzone will be better this year.

Your going to tell me the playcalling hasn't changed? How much 5 wide in the endzone did Denver run during the SuperRun? BTW, Shanahan was calling the plays to boot. Yeah, we had Elway, but we also had Floppy Ed, TD and Sharpe.

Now we have the Putz (Kubiak consistently pulled him in the redzone), Lelie the streaker (all Kubiak had him do was run fade patterns to the corner), and an older Rod Smith (was never a huge redzone target, just overall good), not to mention we have had Gary, Anderson, and the Q running the ball.

Add in neglecting the OL for 5 years and you might see what I'm talking about.

[rbackfactory80]

since the start of free agency, Denver has the 2nd best record, after green bay.

Yeah all in all I often find myself talking badly behind shanny's back but then I think to myself who I would rather have as the head coach. He is a very good consistent coach who is much more in tune with detail then 95 percent of other coaches.

[Cito Pelon]

The real problem is that Shanahan always brings a decent team to the field, but has been hamstrung with some horrible FA picks, and some questionable drafts before 2002, which has really hurt the team.

We always have a decent team, not the rollercoaster types like many rivals, and mostly, we always seem to find a way to lose critical games.

Who didn't pencil in Chicago at home and Oakland at home as losses?

Losing at Indy wasn't a disgrace, giving up WAS.

IMO, the one thing about Denver is they always seem to come out flat in the third quarter, and struggle in the RedZone.

To me, this shows that the team isn't emotional enough. Being overly emotional is dumb, but this is a pretty redundant flaw I have seen again and again. Flat out of the gate in the third, and not making the CRITICAL PLAYS we need to win games.

This has happened at least 10 times. The fumble against Jacksoville by Q. The INT late last year. Giving up the huge kick return by Dante Hall a couple years ago. The pass headed for Portis that Rod Woodson picked off and took 98 yards. The Watts drops. Jakes audible where he throws the fade instead of just slamming the ball in for the TD on first down at the three. It's so frustrating.

That's why I have found alot of fault with Kubiak. I feel that when you get in the redzone, the last thing you do is go 5 wide and pull your TE and push the RB into motion to create "matchups". It's bad enough we start the cadence with only one RB and no FB, but then we pull our TE and put in a 5 wide? You don't have to listen to ME, all you have to do is look at our redzone production. Considering that the offense seemed to be able to march down the field, then seem to change it's philosphy has had me calling for Kubiak's nintendo offense on so many occasions, I can't even count them, probably because I was banging my head on the wall pissed off beyond belief how a team could go to a stretch offense on a shortened field. I just don't get it. You don't have the safety pushing up to the LOS in the redzone. He doesn't have to.

Oh well. Until Pubiak figures out that we don't have to run a 5 wide, and send Lelie on fly patterns every play, our 3rd down, and redzone is going to continue to struggle.

The horrific thing I read the other day was they are "working on multiple sets in the redzone", when it's exactly you need to be able to do, but that shouldn't be your primary redzone offense. Yeah, I know it was just passing camp, but it's terrifying nontheless.

When is Kubiak going to learn that when your in the redzone, corners are going into press coverage, the safeties are going to cheat, and you need to be able to do more than send lelie into the south stands to stretch the field?

Jeez, Mock, that may possibly be the best rant I've ever seen from anybody but me. Well, Old Dude does well, but they're not really rants. Short of my own rants, naturally, but nonetheless . . . . . . excellent rant. So we'll see what 2005 holds, I guess.

[Cito Pelon]

"That's why I have found alot of fault with Kubiak. I feel that when you get in the redzone, the last thing you do is go 5 wide and pull your TE and push the RB into motion to create "matchups". It's bad enough we start the cadence with only one RB and no FB, but then we pull our TE and put in a 5 wide? You don't have to listen to ME, all you have to do is look at our redzone production. Considering that the offense seemed to be able to march down the field, then seem to change it's philosphy has had me calling for Kubiak's nintendo offense on so many occasions, I can't even count them, probably because I was banging my head on the wall pissed off beyond belief how a team could go to a stretch offense on a shortened field. I just don't get it. You don't have the safety pushing up to the LOS in the redzone. He doesn't have to."

There was lot of meat in that rant, and that was pretty meaty.

"The horrific thing I read the other day was they are "working on multiple sets in the redzone","

That was an attention-getter, definitely

Well, let's see how it plays out in pre-season. ShanaKubiak have a lot of work to do to make a Championship, be it Divisional, Conference, or League. There's still no doubt about that.

[Cito Pelon]

Yeah all in all I often find myself talking badly behind shanny's back but then I think to myself who I would rather have as the head coach. He is a very good consistent coach who is much more in tune with detail then 95 percent of other coaches.

You make a good point. It's the assistant coaches that have become worrisome. I've been a Shanny-basher for many years, I'll own up to that no problem. Obviously, the team is not clicking on all cylinders, and the trouble is the OC, DC, and AC's are not top-notch.

Mock pointed out Shanny has had some troubles getting the right personnel on the field as GM. But ya know what stood out to me last year in the Championship run, the playoff run to the SB Title? It was Belechik let Crennel and Weiss run everything on gameday. All he did was provide oversight. And they pretty much ignored him anyway. Bill Walsh and Jimmy Johnson were the HC's that ruled the NFL for quite a few years - who were their OC's and DC's, their AC's? The guys that are now top HC's. Norv Turner, Shanahan, Reid, Holmgren. Why is Vermeil such a good HC? Because Al Saunders is his OC.

Well, I went into a anti-homer rant, so that's enough.

[Atlas]

Your going to tell me the playcalling hasn't changed? How much 5 wide in the endzone did Denver run during the SuperRun? BTW, Shanahan was calling the plays to boot. Yeah, we had Elway, but we also had Floppy Ed, TD and Sharpe.

Now we have the Putz (Kubiak consistently pulled him in the redzone), Lelie the streaker (all Kubiak had him do was run fade patterns to the corner), and an older Rod Smith (was never a huge redzone target, just overall good), not to mention we have had Gary, Anderson, and the Q running the ball.

Add in neglecting the OL for 5 years and you might see what I'm talking about.

Kubiak calls the plays that are in the game plan. Shanny puts the game plan together. If you don't like the play calling you don't like the game plan thus it's probably more of Shanny's fault than Kubes... IMO of course.

I think it's more of player execution than play calling. It's a simple concept. If the players execute the play properly they will score more. Too many drops by the WRs too many bad desicions by jake.. ect...