Interesting Article and comments from Gibbs on C. Brown's injury history

[fontaine]

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20050524-120800-2606r.htm
Medical examiners


By Jody Foldesy
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Washington Redskins officials perused the foreboding details of Courtney Brown's medical dossier in mid-March and weighed rolling the seemingly loaded dice.
A half-dozen injuries marred the defensive end's five-year career with the Cleveland Browns, who made him the top pick in the 2000 NFL Draft. Signing Brown after so many setbacks seemed akin to buying real estate in a flood plain or on a fault line. The medical report just went on and on.
"It was substantial," Redskins coach Joe Gibbs recalled. "We all kind of looked at it the same way, like, 'Good gosh.' "

After digging through reams of surgical notes and MRI reports, the Redskins were left with a simple but significant question: Was Brown injury-prone and therefore likely to be hurt again and again, or had he simply endured an unusually long run of bad luck?
Such medical uncertainty is common terrain for NFL clubs, but that doesn't make it easy to navigate. Teams constantly must scrutinize shades of grey and decide: sign or don't sign? Draft or don't draft? And in this era, in which the salary cap constrains spending and hampers depth, the stakes are particularly high because a winning club is often a healthy club.
"In '99, when we went to the playoffs, I think we only had 13 games missed by starters," Redskins director of sports medicine Bubba Tyer said. "Last year [when Washington was 6-10], it was over 100."
Swinging for the fences
From a medical perspective, cornerback Walt Harris had about as much business pocketing $1.4 million from the Redskins last spring as Gibbs has of piloting one of his stock cars 140 mph around a curve.
A former first-round pick, Harris underwent a risky operation in February 2004 to alleviate chronic patella tendinitis. A third of the tendon was removed, a procedure Tyer said has just a "50-50" chance of succeeding.
Dr. James Andrews, the renowned orthopedist and Redskins senior consultant, flatly told the club it was "not a good surgery." The Redskins had to weigh getting a top reserve against flushing $750,000 in signing bonus and $660,000 in base salary down the drain. Owner Dan Snyder eventually broke the indecision.
"There was a point in there where the owner said, 'Hey, let's get him,' " Tyer recalled. "That's the risk involved. He thought it was worth the chance, and it turned out to be great."
Indeed, Harris now is fully healthy and the odds-on starter when Washington's season opens Sept. 11. But for much of last summer, the Redskins weren't sure whether his knee would mend.
"It was a long rehab," Gibbs said. "In that case you hit the home run, obviously knowing when you go into it that you could bomb out, too."
Defensive tackle Daryl Gardener was another four-bagger by Washington. He signed a $775,000 contract in 2002, took a pain-killing shot in his bad back and won Redskins player of the year. But in 2003, after receiving a seven-year, $34.8 million deal with the Denver Broncos, Gardener played in just five games. He's now out of football with back troubles.
Not all of Washington's medical gambles have paid off. Guard Dave Fiore signed for four years and $6.4 million in 2003, but his chronically bad knees sidelined him after just three games. He ultimately was paid more than $2 million for virtually no production.
Then there's linebacker Jeremiah Trotter, a gutsy third-round pick by the Philadelphia Eagles in 1998. A sketchy ACL repair at Stephen F. Austin scared off many NFL clubs, but Trotter emerged at a Pro Bowl level in Philadelphia. In 2002, he got a seven-year, $35.5 million pact from Washington and limped through two injury-riddled and mistake-filled seasons. In 2004, he re-signed with the Eagles for spare change and promptly returned to the Pro Bowl.
"Any player that we look at, we look at on a risk-reward basis," Eagles president Joe Banner said. "When we drafted him, we felt like we got an awfully good player who made the risk-reward worth it. When we faced the decision last year to bring him back, we faced the same analysis. The short answer is in both instances we came to the conclusion that the value of what he brought to the team was worth signing him."
Ratings game
For some decision-makers, such as Kansas City Chiefs coach Dick Vermeil, the medical evaluation isn't "a complicated procedure." Vermeil and his like-minded brethren invest little of their own subjectivity, relying on medical staffs for detailed analyses of injured players.
It's up to the doctors and trainers to translate the medical jargon into projections on how much a player will practice or play and to guess whether the player might be reinjured.
"They kind of take the grey out of it," Cincinnati Bengals coach Marvin Lewis said. "There's a saying: You've got to defer to what the medical people believe. That's why there has to be built-up trust and a track record."
For doctors and trainers, there is a considerable amount of information to digest. Tyer sits in as the prospective player is evaluated by a Redskins team doctor. X-rays and other tests may be conducted at that time. He and Redskins trainers then sift through notes about the player's various surgeries. The club also may review specific injuries with a consultant, such as Charlotte-based foot specialist Dr. Robert Anderson.
All NFL teams use some type of numbered grading system to rate players on a medical scale. The Eagles rate players from 1 to 4, with grades at either extreme getting no discussion on the personnel side of the equation. A player who rates 4, for instance, will be stripped from Philadelphia's draft board, no questions asked.
Washington uses a 1-to-5 scale. Based on Tyer's description, a 1 "never had a history of injury," a 2 has "some history" and a 3 has "history of injury with some findings — you know, he sprained his knee, and now he's got a loose knee."
From there, players slide quickly toward the black list. Tyer recommends against acquiring players with a 4, while players with a 5 are considered unsignable and undraftable. Of course, there are always exceptions.
"You could say that players have failed the physical and we [have acquired them anyway]," Tyer admitted. "But that happens throughout the league."
The Eagles are among the teams that have taken notable gambles. Besides being two-time winners with Trotter, Philadelphia looked past shoulder troubles to select defensive tackle Corey Simon sixth overall in 2000 and didn't get scared off by second-round safety Michael Lewis' irregular heartbeat in 2002. The club also paid huge money to oft-injured defensive end Jevon Kearse last year.
But the Eagles permitted defensive end Derrick Burgess to leave via free agency this offseason and let beloved running back Duce Staley depart in 2004. Injuries factored into both decisions. Banner argues the club ultimately is fairly conservative.
"It's a very player-by-player type decision," Banner said. "I'd probably describe us on the somewhat-conservative-slash-cautious side. If you compare around the league, there are some players I've seen drafted, some even relatively high, that we wouldn't have pursued for medical reasons."
Meanwhile, some teams treat certain injuries like the kiss of death. Torn ACLs no longer are a big deal — the Redskins have a dozen players with old ACL injuries — but the absence of cartilage in a knee, for example, furrows the brow of Tyer.
"The bone-to-bone injuries — there's nothing you can do about those things in football," Tyer said. "I mean, you can take medicines. Some people are doing advanced surgery work, transplanting cartilage — that's not for football players. That's maybe to help somebody prolong the life of their knee before they have a replacement."
Injury-prone?
Gibbs said he was willing to bet on Brown, who ultimately signed with Denver, because Brown is "a 10 as a person." In other words, the fact Brown could be counted on to rehab properly and not cause off-field distractions made the coach much more apt to make an offer. Still, there's little doubt Brown has earned a certain label.
"He's injury-prone," Redskins defensive end Phillip Daniels said. "Until he can play without getting injured, he's going to get that label."
Why has Brown been injured so frequently? Why did former Redskins offensive lineman Mark Schlereth endure 29 medical procedures during a 12-year career while Hall of Fame rusher Walter Payton played in 190 of 194 possible games?
Random luck obviously plays a big role. Redskins right tackle Jon Jansen didn't miss so much as a practice at the University of Michigan or in the pros until — untouched — he suffered an Achilles' tendon tear in last season's Hall of Fame Game.
"I've talked to 50 different doctors," Jansen said, "and they've all said there was really no explanation for what happened — 'You were just unlucky.' "
But Jansen still maintains theories about the seemingly random distribution of NFL setbacks. For instance, he thinks a given player's body might be "structured" to hold 260 pounds, but for football purposes he weighs 290. Jansen believes the player is just begging for a blow-out.
Lewis and Vermeil cite flexibility and elasticity. Said Vermeil: "Some [players] are gifted in other ways the Good Lord made them. And some are not as flexible. They're stiffer. Their bodies don't bend and roll with the punches as well."
Diet, according to Daniels, is another key factor. He takes vitamins each day and cringes when younger teammates wolf down fried chicken or hamburgers for lunch. Others interviewed for this article mentioned physical fitness and experience.
"What prevents injuries is technique, being in shape and knowing what the [heck] you're doing," said Redskins center Cory Raymer, whose multiple setbacks during a nine-year career have intermittently attracted the "injury-prone" label.
Generally speaking, there don't appear to be any reliable studies on how and why NFL players get hurt. The players association ranks playing surfaces to promote player-friendly turfs, but that's about it. The NFL, according to a league spokesman, hasn't conducted any such analyses.
Some teams have done smaller studies, such as the Eagles' position-by-position breakdown, but those results are proprietary and seemingly not earth-shattering. Said Banner with a laugh: "I think you can figure: Players who get hit the most get hurt the most."
Ultimately, though, the most crucial difference between a player who's injury prone and one who's relatively healthy might be toughness. Tyer's long-repeated mantra is "tough players make good trainers." Jansen believes that most players get the same number of ailments over the course of a career — some get taped up, while others head for the bench.
"I'm not talking about Courtney Brown, and I'm not going to name names," Jansen said, "but there are a lot of injuries that don't need to go reported.
"It's not about luck; it's about toughness."

[bloodsunday]

I got a bad vibe reading this article. I sensed that Washington considered Brown a HUGE injury risk and that they were taking a lottery type chance on him. In other words, we should be cautious (as fans) about considering Brown to be a lock for anything.

[ND Bronco Fan]

See I got a different feeling from the first 1/3 of the article I read (too long). I got the feeling they were trying to play off the fact that chose not to sign Brown after all the trouble they went through. Fly out there the day he is released and all that, only to have him sign with Denver. Sure they are going to play up the injuries-since "they did not want him".

[fontaine]

I got a bad vibe reading this article. I sensed that Washington considered Brown a HUGE injury risk and that they were taking a lottery type chance on him. In other words, we should be cautious (as fans) about considering Brown to be a lock for anything.

I've been pessimistic about Brown's return as well. Originally I said I didn't think he'd make it past week 4 but what do I know?

I think the management is handling Brown with kid gloves, like only making him go one a day in camp, limiting his practice time and reps, and limiting the number of snaps he takes during the season to see if he can hold up and to give his body a chance to recover.

I read an interesting take from a GM in sportsline. The gist of it was that he didn't consider C. Brown a total loss. He said that during his rookie season where players are most likely to be overwhelmed physically by the rigors of the NFL, Brown held up ok and didn't get injured in his rookie season.

However, he went on to say that once Brown got injured in his 2nd year, he lost "balance" physically. He spent most of the time rehabbing his injured knee and various other parts of his body lost sync or where unbalanced with his injured leg. In other words, parts of his bady where more/less stronger than his injured leg and if you loose that balance, then you're chances of suffering injury elsewhere are magnified because the muscle structure of your body is trying to compensate for less/more stronger parts rather than working together in equal portions.

Interesting stuff.

[Ray Finkle]

I got a bad vibe reading this article. I sensed that Washington considered Brown a HUGE injury risk and that they were taking a lottery type chance on him. In other words, we should be cautious (as fans) about considering Brown to be a lock for anything.


it was written by the times who are huge redskin backers....it's just pr to cover their butts if Brown busts here...

[-Slap-]

See I got a different feeling from the first 1/3 of the article I read (too long). I got the feeling they were trying to play off the fact that chose not to sign Brown after all the trouble they went through. Fly out there the day he is released and all that, only to have him sign with Denver. Sure they are going to play up the injuries-since "they did not want him".

I agree. Its not like Brown's medical history was any secret. He was the top overall pick, he wasn't exactly flying under the radar.

[RaiderH8r]

Like I said before, it's hard to work up the gumption to bust your ass to get back from an injury, or play injured, when your team is 1-7 at the midway point of every season. I think winning will cure a lot of his ills. Hell, Abraham didn't even do it when his team was IN the playoffs, I think/hope Brown will be fine.

[Spider]

well this is the NFL , Players get hurt , Only a fool would count on a player 100% .. But then taking a gamble on a player with a Injury history , is somthing few teams can afford ... I think Denver is in a unique position , our Dline wasnt the greatest , but they held their own more often then not .......

[bronco militia]

I think Denver is in a unique position , our Dline wasnt the greatest , but they held their own more often then not .......


lol...your're being too kind...

[Spider]

lol...your're being too kind...
;D I prefer the first half of last years season no question .....

[fontaine]

Well, I will say this: IMO, Brown has a better chance of staying healthy than a guy like Luther Ellis who's really on the wrong side of 30 and is just plain worn down.

At least with Brown, he's still young and his body still has the ability to repair itself. Ted Johnson was another guy who was perenially injured and bounced back for the Pats last season so maybe there's hope.

[bloodsunday]

See I got a different feeling from the first 1/3 of the article I read (too long). I got the feeling they were trying to play off the fact that chose not to sign Brown after all the trouble they went through. Fly out there the day he is released and all that, only to have him sign with Denver. Sure they are going to play up the injuries-since "they did not want him".
I didn't read any where that they didn't want him, but just that they considered him a risk. Perhaps they are saying that he was such a risk that they weren't ready to bid as much as Denver.

[bloodsunday]

However, he went on to say that once Brown got injured in his 2nd year, he lost "balance" physically. He spent most of the time rehabbing his injured knee and various other parts of his body lost sync or where unbalanced with his injured leg. In other words, parts of his bady where more/less stronger than his injured leg and if you loose that balance, then you're chances of suffering injury elsewhere are magnified because the muscle structure of your body is trying to compensate for less/more stronger parts rather than working together in equal portions.

Interesting stuff.
This is interesting and there are a lot of theories about this kind of stuff. TD held up well until his first injury and things just spiraled on him. Many say he was compensating for his knee and putting too much stress on other body parts. Perhaps the best way to deal with Brown then would be to take a full year on IR and let him heal completely. I also read (on ESPN I think) that this particular food injury he is rehabing from him has only been overcome a couple of times.

[delany]

CB just needs to realize that he doesn't need to be the Man in Denver.

He needs to play within himself....he can go for broke in the playoffs.

If he can hold up at the point of attack and play in at least 12 games in the regular season....I would consider it a success.

This season he should be judged on additional criteria besides sack numbers and tackles. Starting with...games played.

[bloodsunday]

Well, I will say this: IMO, Brown has a better chance of staying healthy than a guy like Luther Ellis who's really on the wrong side of 30 and is just plain worn down.
I agree with that, but I think Denver has more invested in Brown in terms of hope. The Denver coaches are counting more on Brown being an impact player than Ellis.

[bloodsunday]

If he can hold up at the point of attack and play in at least 12 games in the regular season....I would consider it a success.
Interesting point you raise here. I question why Denver would have him play at the point of attack instead of the weakside end that they promised to Trevor. Seems to me that Brown could keep his weight down (to relieve the stress on his body) if he played the weakside. Maybe he's a guy that's a better fit as a pass rush specialist in a 3 - 4?

[fontaine]

I also read (on ESPN I think) that this particular food injury he is rehabing from him has only been overcome a couple of times.

Well, I think Espn faulted on that. The injury that they were referring to was a Lisfranc Seperation/Sprain, where essentially the bone structure of your foot flattens down.

His injury is a sprained/torn Lisfranc tendon which I was led to believe is a different injury and not as career threatening.

[Beantown Bronco]

I love all this talk throughout the article about diet and flexibility, etc. having a real influence on injuries. I don't really buy into it. I see most injuries as bad luck more than anything. For example, if you're an Olineman or DLineman and your leg gets caught under someone else or someone next to you falls and lands on your knee, you're going to get injured whether you've been eating a little too much KFC or not. I don't think Kerry Collins' broken jaw or Griese's separated shoulder had anything to do with training either. Things happen when you get hit by 250 pound linebackers hitting you as hard as they can.

Hamstring pulls are pretty much the only major injury I would attribute to training, flexibility and conditioning. Just look at Lelie. He was pulling his hammy left and right before getting to the Broncos. Now, with better training, well I won't say it for risk of jinxing it any further.

[Rascal]

Can somebody please tell me in the hell Brown is playing strong end while Pryce is playing weak end? Pryce is bigger, stronger, and better at fending off blocks. While Brown is faster and smaller. I really don't like it. Not to mention having Brown at weak end will probably help him stay healthy (because I would have him lose about 10 pounds in the process).

For some reason I have a feeling this is a result of ian gold. Ian is to small so he needs a bigger lineman in front of him and they aren't about to put him on the strong side so trevor gets moved over there and DJ gets Brown. If this is true it hacks me off even more about getting ian.

[Spider]

Can somebody please tell me in the hell Brown is playing strong end while Pryce is playing weak end? Pryce is bigger, stronger, and better at fending off blocks. While Brown is faster and smaller. I really don't like it. Not to mention having Brown at weak end will probably help him stay healthy (because I would have him lose about 10 pounds in the process).

For some reason I have a feeling this is a result of ian gold. Ian is to small so he needs a bigger lineman in front of him and they aren't about to put him on the strong side so trevor gets moved over there and DJ gets Brown. If this is true it hacks me off even more about getting ian.
I think Gold does play a small Part , but another Part I would be looking at is speed is Pryce quicker ?
then you have the Right handed offense and QB , is Pryce quicker then Brown , and a better chance of the QB not seeing Pryce ?

[bendog]

I think Gold does play a small Part , but another Part I would be looking at is speed is Pryce quicker ?
then you have the Right handed offense and QB , is Pryce quicker then Brown , and a better chance of the QB not seeing Pryce ?
Part of Pryce's deal with shanny was that he could play under 280 and get the left side. He's got a bad back. (-:

JMO but if Den gets 16 starts out of the two of these guys, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[bloodsunday]

I love all this talk throughout the article about diet and flexibility, etc. having a real influence on injuries. I don't really buy into it. I see most injuries as bad luck more than anything. For example, if you're an Olineman or DLineman and your leg gets caught under someone else or someone next to you falls and lands on your knee, you're going to get injured whether you've been eating a little too much KFC or not. I don't think Kerry Collins' broken jaw or Griese's separated shoulder had anything to do with training either. Things happen when you get hit by 250 pound linebackers hitting you as hard as they can.
I think you are naive if you don't think that some players are more injury prone then others. There are examples where players overcome an injury prone perception or go longer than average stretches without injury. But at the end of the day everyone's body is different and some just don't hold up as well with phyisical stress like 365 day training and carryinig footballt type weight. How you overcome that is as much a guess as anything at this point. Its different for everyone.

[ND Bronco Fan]

I didn't read any where that they didn't want him, but just that they considered him a risk. Perhaps they are saying that he was such a risk that they weren't ready to bid as much as Denver.


Originally Posted by ND Bronco Fan
See I got a different feeling from the first 1/3 of the article

Notice where I said "feeling", that is why you did not read it anywhere.

[bloodsunday]

Part of Pryce's deal with shanny was that he could play under 280 and get the left side. He's got a bad back. (-:

JMO but if Den gets 16 starts out of the two of these guys, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
I'd put the over under about 22 games. 14 for Pryce and 8 for Brown.

[bendog]

I've got hope for Ebanezer.

[Ray Finkle]

Well, I think Espn faulted on that. The injury that they were referring to was a Lisfranc Seperation/Sprain, where essentially the bone structure of your foot flattens down.

His injury is a sprained/torn Lisfranc tendon which I was led to believe is a different injury and not as career threatening.


didn't Duce Staley have the same injury?

[bloodsunday]

Well, I think Espn faulted on that. The injury that they were referring to was a Lisfranc Seperation/Sprain, where essentially the bone structure of your foot flattens down.

His injury is a sprained/torn Lisfranc tendon which I was led to believe is a different injury and not as career threatening.
Here is the article I read:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2024090

Len P calls it a Lisfranc Sprain.

[Beantown Bronco]

I think you are naive if you don't think that some players are more injury prone then others.

Where did I say anything about this? All I'm saying is, like Jon Jansen's doctor would say, some injuries are simply the result of bad luck. True, many players are "injury prone". I have never debated this. What I am debating is the reason for the injuries. Does this have to be the result of their training? Why can't this be the result of mostly bad luck?

I have a friend who has been in 4 car accidents. None were their fault. Some people are just magnets for "black clouds", in life and in football.

[Jason in LA]

One part of the article that sticks out to me was when the one player said that some of these players are playing at a weight that's too much for them. Some players have a 260 lb frame, but are playing at 290 lbs, or more. I read a while back that somebody thought Brown's injury problems were because he was playing heavier than he did in college. The added weight might be the problem.

Does anybody know Brown's playing weight in college, and if he had injury problems back then? Maybe he just needs to drop the extra weight.

On a side note, I guess we can all stop saying "it's Griese's fault", and start saying "it's Gold's fault".

[Jason in LA]

I did a search on Brown going into the draft. One article had him listed at 270 lbs at the time of the draft. He's listed at 290 lbs on the Broncos website. That could be one of the problems.

[bloodsunday]

Your Orginal Quote:
I love all this talk throughout the article about diet and flexibility, etc. having a real influence on injuries. I don't really buy into it. I see most injuries as bad luck more than anything.
Sounds to me like you are discounting the idea of injury proneness (word?) in favor of "bad luck". I don't consider them mutually exclusive, but your last two sentences suggest that you don't believe its anything more than bad luck, like the idea that a person could just not have the proper body type to endure the stress.

Where did I say anything about this? All I'm saying is, like Jon Jansen's doctor would say, some injuries are simply the result of bad luck.
It's true that some are bad luck. Others could be a sign of a person that has an inferior athletic body, or a prior injury, or degenerative condition.

True, many players are "injury prone". I have never debated this. What I am debating is the reason for the injuries. Does this have to be the result of their training? Why can't this be the result of mostly bad luck?
Again, sometimes its bad luck. But in the Injury prone scenarios it is often the result of normal football activity (blocking, tackling, running) as opposed to getting rolled up on. It's especially true when it happens to one guy over and over (brown). So doctors are looking for training for better ways to protect and understand the body. I believe it is case by case. Some players may respond to different training or playing with less mass, etc.. while others just don't have the type of body to endure the pounding.

I have a friend who has been in 4 car accidents. None were their fault. Some people are just magnets for "black clouds", in life and in football.
It's not about fairness, its just reality. Romo played 16 seasons and barely missed any time. Brown has played 5 and has finished the last 4 on IR. You have to consider him injury prone. Why you are prone is probably case by case. For example, I think there is some legitimacy to the argument that a guy with a severe injury over compensates and puts too much stress on other body parts and causes other injuries. Other guys it may just be a body type that is not conducive to the punishment that a pro athlete endures. And yet other guys may just have a "black cloud" following them around. At this point, I would put C Brown in either category one or two, but am not an expert on his condition nor a doctor.

I am not trying to attack you, but I just sensed that in your original quote you were completely discounting the idea that different body types or previous injuries could be a predictor of future injuries. Instead you just chalk it up to bad luck. When a doctor evaluates a player, they are evaluating his body type and his previous injuries to try and predict/correct future injury scenarios.

[telluride]

The most sensible approach to these dinged d-line guys is this: assume that they will not contribute much, and if they do, be pleasantly surprised. But if we go into the season thinking one or two or three of them will be solid starters, we are prepping ourselves for dissapointment.

Our d-line likely will be about the same as last year. If the magic happens and Pryce is cured and the Brownies ressurrected, let's all rejoice. (Me, I woulda kept Berry and Hayward.)

[Pendejo]

Yeah Gibbs thought that Brown was such a risk (knowing full well is his injury history)...that he jumped on a plane to Cleveland the same day the dude was released in an attempt to sign him.

Brown is clearly a gamble, but not all that costly of one.

[Atlas]

I don't really buy into it. I see most injuries as bad luck more than anything. For example, if you're an Olineman or DLineman and your leg gets caught under someone else or someone next to you falls and lands on your knee, you're going to get injured whether you've been eating a little too much KFC or not.

The odds of you getting hurt when someone falls on the back of your leg isn't as high if you have good flexibilty. Being able to withstand sudden shock and having your leg in awkward positions is all about being flexible.

[Beantown Bronco]

I guess I'll just have to disagree. If a 300 pould lineman falls on the knee of a guy, even if he's the strongest, most flexible guy in the world. He's going on the DL. A break is a break.

[bronco militia]

The most sensible approach to these dinged d-line guys is this: assume that they will not contribute much, and if they do, be pleasantly surprised. But if we go into the season thinking one or two or three of them will be solid starters, we are prepping ourselves for dissapointment.

Our d-line likely will be about the same as last year. If the magic happens and Pryce is cured and the Brownies ressurrected, let's all rejoice. (Me, I woulda kept Berry and Hayward.)

that's a solid take, but I wouldn't have kept Hayward...maybe the Broncos should have tried harder to keep Berry, but they had huge expectations/plans for Hayward.

You have to remember that Hayward was given the RDE before camp, then lost it by the end of camp and then got it back after Trevor and others were injured. He got one sweet deal from the Jags. Unortunatly due to Shanny's drafts and other FA debacles, the Broncos are forced to make moves like they have made this offseason.

for once, I'd like one of shanny's offseason DL projects to pan out...maybe this is the year?

[DarkHorse30]

Gibbs didn't really know what today's NFL is like. Look at his trouble trying to get players on the field, and wins in his pocket. Bottom line, take ANYTHING the Redskiins say with an owner like Snyder and a old-timer like Gibbs with bags of salt.

As to Brown's injury....sure it's a "risk" to expect him to be an everyday starter, but the trick in cap football is buying low and selling high. I'm not surprised Gibbs and old-timers like Al Davis would have problems dealing with building juggernauts in today's NFL. The cap doesn't allow you to pay for a championship team and then roll.

So....you're left with the idea of trying to find good players that WANT to play. Redskins aren't successful enough in the last 10 years, even with Gibbs on board, to know anything about this idea. OTOH, Denver has been drawing good players here ever since Shanahan came to town. It is one of the best organizations in football, with a proven track record of winning in the last 10 years. How do they do it? By taking flyers on guys like A. Williams, Romanowski, McCaffrey, Neil Smith......and about a half a dozen guys nearly every year. If that is too "risky" for old-time-fans to be comfortable with......maybe they can join the confusion that surrounds Gibbs current tenure with the Redskins.

[DarkHorse30]

that's a solid take, but I wouldn't have kept Hayward...maybe the Broncos should have tried harder to keep Berry, but they had huge expectations/plans for Hayward.

You have to remember that Hayward was given the RDE before camp, then lost it by the end of camp and then got it back after Trevor and others were injured. He got one sweet deal from the Jags. Unortunatly due to Shanny's drafts and other FA debacles, the Broncos are forced to make moves like they have made this offseason.

for once, I'd like one of shanny's offseason DL projects to pan out...maybe this is the year?

The fact is....Denver got Berry and Heyward for next to nothing and turned them into stars. Both operate on the weak-side DE, a pass-rushing goldmine.

Consider that Pryce has NEVER been a weak-side DE....any question on whether he would be as productive as Heyward or Berry occupying the same role? I'm really laughing at all the hand-wringing over Denver's D-line moves. Denver has manufactured a top 5 defense the last two years, finding guys sometimes on the cheap, to man the front 4. Somehow, Denver has overcome "bad drafts" and the Daryl Gardner "debacle" to find a pretty good front 4.

Now Denver gets a chance to see what 2-3 highly rated, but poorly producing former #1 picks can do, given a second chance with a GOOD organization.

THIS is a problem?

[Atlas]

I guess I'll just have to disagree. If a 300 pould lineman falls on the knee of a guy, even if he's the strongest, most flexible guy in the world. He's going on the DL. A break is a break.

Guys have their legs fallen on all the time. WHy do only some of these injuries to some of the players? Why are some players more likely to get injured. Maybe because they are the most stiff unflexable players.

[bronco militia]

.

THIS is a problem?

it's a problem if it ends up being more of the same.

so far, defensive ranking don't equal division titles, home playoff games, or any playoff victories when it comes to the Denver Broncos of the last 6 seasons.

[edweirdo]

Interesting story that was mentioned on ProFootballTalk.com this morning:
http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20050524-120800-2606r.htm
:injured:

I'm sure you Broncos fans don't find PFT's calling Denver the "Island of Misfits" not exactly to you liking.
rofl

Shanahan has made some...interesting...choices in FA and in the draft. Will be interesting to see whether the moves pay off or backfire.

You guys should have a sick LB corps for the 4-3. Any word on who would play LB in the 3-4?

[bronco militia]

http://66.49.247.155/BB/showthread.php?t=26261&page=1

wait for it to load,

http://gprime.net/flash.php/postingandyou

[edweirdo]

http://66.49.247.155/BB/showthread.php?t=26261&page=1

wait for it to load,

http://gprime.net/flash.php/postingandyou

LOL Sorry for the duplicate post.

[TotallyScrewed]

I think the reason for the concern over "wolfing down KFC or burgers" is it shows a lack of knowledge about how the body works and a disregard for proper methods in diet, technique, conditioning, flexibility, etc...

The vast majority, or so I'm led to believe, of pro players have made it to that level based on God given talent and some effort. They've never had to work on all those things mentioned above.

Don't discount Romo's career to just luck. The guy was heavily in tune with his body and didn't stress it without thought. The guy obviously knows a great deal about body mechanics and techniques. Just ask Sharpe about his elbow. Romo's emotion about the game probably made him one of those "tape it and go" guys.

I think the biggest benefit for CB is working in an environment where he's not THE MAN and doesn't have to play every down for the team to be successful.

[Beantown Bronco]

Rod Smith is an admitted junk food addict. He rarely eats healthy, even during the season. He is rarely hurt.

Back in 2000, when I was getting autographs of players going into practice, I noticed that all of the players brought their own lunches. For what it's worth, Romo was the only Bronco I noticed who was not eating BK or McD's fast food.

[SpringStein]

For what it's worth, Romo was the only Bronco I noticed who was not eating BK or McD's fast food.

What was he having - a handful of "vitamins"? ;)

[TotallyScrewed]

Sharpe was also a health nut but only for his football career. I never heard that about Smith.

[DBroncos4life]

Hmmm this article is coming from a team that we may have ripped off twice in back to back years. Now they are writing about a player that turned them down to come to play at DENVER. Im not saying Brown will be good or even step on the field but I will take that article at face value. Oh by the way Brown got hurt chasing a guy down and making a tackle, on the other side of the field. He got hurt trying to help his team. If he just gives up like 45% of the other ends in the NFL he wouldn't have got hurt. Just food for thought

[DarkHorse30]

it's a problem if it ends up being more of the same.

so far, defensive ranking don't equal division titles, home playoff games, or any playoff victories when it comes to the Denver Broncos of the last 6 seasons.

If you look at the O and D rankings, and then consider that Denver is in the top 10 of each for the past 2 years.....THEN think about how many complete teams like Denver there really are, and how much our "failed" D-line experiments really impact gettting to the playoffs....answer? None. The reason Denver lost 2 playoff games to Indy is because our secondary was toast, due to injury, both years. You can blame it on our pass-rush, but you might remember that Manning rarely gets sacked. So it's the pass-rush still? Not likely.

For all the talk about Denver having trouble finding a good D-line, and all the rehashing about how this draft was a failure or gambling on Gardner was a mistake, Denver continues to do better than nearly every other team at most aspects of it's game......especially in this division. KC takes a few years off...Oakland takes about every other year off....ditto SD.....but Denver consistently finds good players to play in a good system for a great organization.

"More of the same...." playoff appearances?.....winning seasons?.....offensive record-breaking seasons with HALF the talent?.......sheesh, this is gawd-awful.....I see why you're so depressed. Not.

[bronco militia]

"More of the same...." playoff appearances?.....winning seasons?.....offensive record-breaking seasons with HALF the talent?.......sheesh, this is gawd-awful......



if you're satisfied with the last 6 seasons that's fine....I'm not.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Yeah Gibbs thought that Brown was such a risk (knowing full well is his injury history)...that he jumped on a plane to Cleveland the same day the dude was released in an attempt to sign him.

Brown is clearly a gamble, but not all that costly of one.


The 2nd page before someone pointed that out. His past wasn't scary enough to prevent them from offering a pretty similar deal compared to the Broncos either.

[Cito Pelon]

I love all this talk throughout the article about diet and flexibility, etc. having a real influence on injuries. I don't really buy into it. I see most injuries as bad luck more than anything. For example, if you're an Olineman or DLineman and your leg gets caught under someone else or someone next to you falls and lands on your knee, you're going to get injured whether you've been eating a little too much KFC or not. I don't think Kerry Collins' broken jaw or Griese's separated shoulder had anything to do with training either. Things happen when you get hit by 250 pound linebackers hitting you as hard as they can.

Hamstring pulls are pretty much the only major injury I would attribute to training, flexibility and conditioning. Just look at Lelie. He was pulling his hammy left and right before getting to the Broncos. Now, with better training, well I won't say it for risk of jinxing it any further.

Nah, you have to be flexible, and "football-strong," not just weight-training strong, meaning somebody like a QB that never gets hit except in games is less able to withstand a hit, his body just isn't used to getting torqued around. It's like if you're like me, you lift weights but don't do physical labor every day, yo go out and do some landscaping, lifting rocks, sod, hell I can feel muscles and joints getting torqued that the weigh-training doesn't get to.

Same thing with technique - if somebody is rolling toward you're knees, you better be smart/athletic enough to lift your damn feet, or you could be in a lot of hurt.

[DarkHorse30]

if you're satisfied with the last 6 seasons that's fine....I'm not.

Bully for you.

Yeah....I'd much rather lose playoff games than rebuild the best championship team the league has seen since the cowboys annihilated the Bills every other year.

If you think rebuilding is done easily in the cap-era, I've got news for you.....it isn't. The Broncos have had one crap season since Elway retired, and have been getting better every year since...despite losing 3-4 HOF players after the SB seasons.

Being unhappy because your team doesn't win the SB is fine.....but at least recognize the Broncos aren't an unorganized bunch of boobs that can't draft, grab a good FA, etc. The record and the stats prove that Denver IS getting better......like it or not.

[Rock Chalk]

The odds of you getting hurt when someone falls on the back of your leg isn't as high if you have good flexibilty. Being able to withstand sudden shock and having your leg in awkward positions is all about being flexible.
It all depends on the nature of the incident. I dont care how flexible a person is, if a 300 lbs lineman rolls onto your foot and up your shin, odds are you are getting injured even if you are a contortionist.

Take Bell for example. A broken finger is not the result of poor training or being out of shape. Thats an example of bad luck. Id agree with Beantown that MOST injuries in the NFL are a result of bad luck and not poor conditioning. I say this because the conditioning that goes on in the NFL is among the best conditioning regiments in the world for ANYTHING.

Now that is not solely the reason, and I dont think Beantown was saying that either. There are cases where a person is "weak" physically when it comes to absorbing pain and damage to the body, but there are cases where a person has had a multitude of injuries and ALL of them, or most of them anyway, were a result of some incredibly bad luck.

Really, how many groin injuries do you hear about? Is there some sort of excersize you can do to strengthen your groin? (masturbation aside). Turf toe anyone? The most common injuries in the NFL, from what I have seen, stem more from just the physical nature of the game and the things one has to do to their body than from any lack of proper or excellent training or shape a person is in.

Whether Brown is an example of bad luck or injury proneness I suppose is the question and really, no one knows. NOt yet anyway. We will, soon enough, and the more you people nonsensically jabber on about random topics, the more excited I get about it.

[labronx]

The fact is....Denver got Berry and Heyward for next to nothing and turned them into stars. Both operate on the weak-side DE, a pass-rushing goldmine.

Consider that Pryce has NEVER been a weak-side DE....any question on whether he would be as productive as Heyward or Berry occupying the same role? I'm really laughing at all the hand-wringing over Denver's D-line moves. Denver has manufactured a top 5 defense the last two years, finding guys sometimes on the cheap, to man the front 4. Somehow, Denver has overcome "bad drafts" and the Daryl Gardner "debacle" to find a pretty good front 4.

Now Denver gets a chance to see what 2-3 highly rated, but poorly producing former #1 picks can do, given a second chance with a GOOD organization.

THIS is a problem?

NICE