"a few players away", "the plan", and the negativity from the fans

[orange 4 life]

once again, im pretty mystified.

i listened to mike and sandy again last night (i must be a massochist), and about broke my radio.
these two smug morons are doing their typical routine where they bash everything broncos and try to encourage everyone else to join their anti bronco crusade.
sure, they disguise it by saying "its not being a bad fan to criticize your team", but its a bash session none the less.
its not being a bad fan to criticize your team when your team is the arizona cardinals or new orleans saints.
its not a bad fan to criticize the broncos when they clearly deserve it, but to bash a team that went 10-6 the last two years and improved in the offseason is one of two things
1) a bad fan, and/or
2) an idiot

we were told by shanahan that we were "a few players away".
many here and in the media scoffed at this.
it made no sense at the time, and to STILL shrug that off is jaw dropping.
for the umpteenth time, we were two PLAYS away from 12-4 a year ago.
yes, we were only a few players away.
we were a red zone threat away on offense.
we were a couple defensive linemen short on defense,
and we were short a couple players on special teams.
by and large, our team was pretty damn solid.
so, what did "the plan" have for us in the offseason?
semantics aside (a "couple" or a "few" players), we WERE only a "few" players away.
question is: did we get those players in this offseason?
answer: it is sure starting to look that way. why the collective voice is one of skepticism if not flat out criticism i dont understand.
how spoiled have we become?

we were weak on the defensive line. that was clearly our BIGGEST area of need.
we got brown, warren, ekuban, and myers. again, if TWO of these players make any impact, we won that deal.
also, not many choose to mention this, but we get BACK trevor pryce and luther ellis.
thats SIX linemen we didnt have last year. i'd say that qualifies as improvement considering all we gave up is one overhyped and overpaid player in reggie hayward.
we needed more playmakers (though pressure in of itself makes plays), and so we brought back ian gold. like him or not, he improves an already strong group.

we were weak in the red zone. well, we didnt make huge waves on offense, but we did retain putz who goes into his second full season as starter, and we get BACK mike anderson, which is another fact no one seems to mention. also, we brought in clarett and dayne, both of which have some upside around the goaline. if ONE of these three guys make an impact, we are improved.
lelie goes into his third year, and bell and watts goes into their second. if rice comes in and EARNS a spot, great. just one more guy that may make a play here and there. if he's signed, rest assured he'll EARN his roster spot. you should be HAPPY about this prospective signing. it shows that we ARE in fact looking at NOW as our time to win.
further, you must concede that alot of our struggles in the scoring department are a result of our poor field position, which brings us to special teams.

we brought back keith burns, who is not only a good PLAYER on special teams but is a LEADER on that team.
ian golds return adds another probowl caliber special teams player.
drafting darrent williams brings in the return threat we've deperately needed.
signing todd sauerbrun brings in a 3 time probowler to punt.
VAST improvement in special teams, which carries over to offense and defense.

that leaves the defensive backfield as the only spot not improved from a year ago.
kennedy and herndon are out, and fergy and walls are in.
pretty much a wash in my opinion, but remember that the special teams and defensive line will take ALOT of pressure off the backs.
another defensive back would be nice, but if thats the ONLY piece of the puzzle not in place, i think we have to acknowledge that everything has ended up pretty much according to the "plan".

we were two PLAYS away from 10-6 last year, and we have improved on all THREE teams this offseason.
why anyone would be overly critical is beyond me.
it might be a bit early to make hotel reservations for the superbowl...

...but you might at least want to pencil in the time off work.
stop the negativity, and lets get back the collective confidence we havent had since elway retired.
:Broncos:

jake

[Mile High Shack]

God love ya Jake, we need more homers like you :)

keep the faith

me, myself, I can't do it, but you help keep everyone strong

[RhymesayersDU]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to orange 4 life again.

[sirhcyennek81]

Broncos did improve where they needed to. I dont exactly understand why fans of this team are so negative. How can you not like what shanahan has done? Warren and Brown are basically in for extended tryouts, if they do not succeed, they are gone. simple. Myers and Ekuban are good rotational players, and you could have a decent third down rush line of Pryce, Brown, Ekuban and Palepoi. Someone will get there. Secondary gained youth and speed, and instead of two strong safeties in our defensive backfield, we now have a true free safety in ferguson. Gold is an upgrade over spragan, we lose size, but gain speed, and he changes how offenses view our defense. you have pryce and gold coming for the qb on the same side of the field, potentially pulling three blockers away from warren, brown and pope. i like this offseason, i liked this draft. Broncos are the most consistent team int he afc west, standing wise, time to make the jump, win the division and get a home playoff game at Mile High.

[bronco militia]

O4L...you make solid points, but for the first time since I've been a fan (1985) I can't remember the media and so many fans down on the Broncos at this point of the season.

I'll admit we're spoiled, but the Broncos and Mike Shanahan have set the bar very high as far as expectations go in Colorado.

I don't think this team is going to the superbowl, but it doesn't mean I'm not a fan of the team anymore.

[-Slap-]

We are a few players away. Unfortunately those players happen to be Walter Payton, Johnny Unitas and Deacon Jones.

[sirhcyennek81]

in 1995 when denver went 8-8, did anyone see them going 13-3 the following year? So why is it unfeasible for them to go from 10-6 to 12-4?

[orange 4 life]

O4L...you make solid points, but for the first time since I've been a fan (1985) I can't remember the media and so many fans down on the Broncos at this point of the season.

I'll admit we're spoiled, but the Broncos and Mike Shanahan have set the bar very high as far as expectations go in Colorado.

I don't think this team is going to the superbowl, but it doesn't mean I'm not a fan of the team anymore.

i cant remember the media and fans so down either, and i go back to the 70's.

again, we were two plays away from 12-4, and we're improved in all three phases of the game.

yes, the bar is set high, and that DOES NOT mean that idiots like sandy clough should hammer everything the broncos do.
yes, we havent won a playoff game post elway, but we HAVE been consistently competitive, and we HAVE improved dramatically this offseason.
improvement equals more wins, more wins equals division title, division title equals home playoff game(s), home playoff games equal playoff wins.

seems to me that "logic" and not the ugly word "homerism".

[-Slap-]

we were weak in the red zone. well, we didnt make huge waves on offense, but we did retain putz who goes into his second full season as starter, and we get BACK mike anderson, which is another fact no one seems to mention. also, we brought in clarett and dayne, both of which have some upside around the goaline. if ONE of these three guys make an impact, we are improved.

We were as bad as anybody in the NFL in the red zone last year (except maybe Jacksonville) and we did nothing to address that.

Ron Dayne the goalline back. I love it. Ever seen him play?

[orange 4 life]

We were as bad as anybody in the NFL in the red zone last year (except maybe Jacksonville) and we did nothing to address that.

Ron Dayne the goalline back. I love it. Ever seen him play?

mike anderson the goalline back.

ever seen him play?

i have

[orange 4 life]

We are a few players away. Unfortunately those players happen to be Walter Payton, Johnny Unitas and Deacon Jones.

well thats the kind of negative idiocy so prevalent lately.

pathetic

[-Slap-]

mike anderson the goalline back.

ever seen him play?

i have

I've seen him fumble a lot, too. That's why Shanahan would rather loan Mock his credit card in front of an adult book store than give Sarge the rock anywhere near the goalline.

You been puffing on MA's supply this morning, Jakey?

[Beantown Bronco]

I'd beg to differ on the negativity thing. During and after the '99 season were about as negative as I can remember.

[-Slap-]

well thats the kind of negative idiocy so prevalent lately.

pathetic

You're the pathetic idiot.

[orange 4 life]

God love ya Jake, we need more homers like you :)

keep the faith

me, myself, I can't do it, but you help keep everyone strong

okay, and WHY exactly cant you do it?

were we not 10-6 the last two years?
were we not two plays away from 12-4?
did we not improve?

its not "homerism", its simple logic.

[Beantown Bronco]

But to play devil's advocate, out division rivals also improved on paper. That logic only works when all else stays the same.

[orange 4 life]

You're the pathetic idiot.

yeah i know slappy.

i should be a solid fan like yourself and hammer every move the team makes.
i should predict a 6-10 season because we signed a linebacker you dont like.
i should ignore the positive and focus on the bad...what little of it there is.

whatever pal.

[bronco militia]

we HAVE improved dramatically this offseason.


saying so, doesn't make it true.....there are more question marks about this roster than there were before the 2005 offseason began, hence the pessimism about Shanny's "one or two players away" comment.

[orange 4 life]

But to play devil's advocate, out division rivals also improved on paper. That logic only works when all else stays the same.

the chiefs didnt make enough improvement, the chargers were a fluke, and the raiders....

...well, the raiders are better, but shanahan hasnt had a good nights sleep since we lost that snow game, and the raiders dont have the qb to beat us.

[-Slap-]

yeah i know slappy.

i should be a solid fan like yourself and hammer every move the team makes.
i should ignore the positive and focus on the bad...what little of it there is.

whatever pal.

Nah, you should get on here and tell all these young people that used car dealers are to be trusted implicitly, because they're just there to help you. That was the most glaring example of message board malpractice I've ever witnessed on this forum.

Hey, look up in the sky, Jake. The clouds are made of cotton candy.

Wheeeeeeeeee!

[Mile High Shack]

okay, and WHY exactly cant you do it?

were we not 10-6 the last two years?
were we not two plays away from 12-4?
did we not improve?

its not "homerism", its simple logic.
The logic is

I have very little faith that our pass rush will improve. I still don’t believe Trevor is fully healed nor will he ever be, when he starts getting hit, I expect his back to twinge up again.

I have no faith in the Browns that came upon us.

I have lost some faith in Jake and his high INT total.

I have lost faith in our interior line, the ability to push back in the red zone.

I have lost faith in our secondary, Champ is great, but I always thought Walls was over-rated. Middlebust is always hurt.

And lastly, I have lost faith in Mike Shanahan to really address the true problems, w/o letting his hubris get in the way of true growth in our football team.

[Kaylore]

I'm going to wait and see how the season pans out. Our schedule is tough. If all the areas that we tried to address with the draft and free agency aren't executing and costing us games, then I think the criticism is well placed. However I don't think anyone can really say until they play a few games and we see how they look.

[orange 4 life]

Nah, you should get on here and tell all these young people that used car dealers are to be trusted implicitly, because they're just there to help you. That was the most glaring example of message board malpractice I've ever witnessed on this forum.

Hey, look up in the sky, Jake. The clouds are made of cotton candy.

Wheeeeeeeeee!

here we go again.
at least tell the truth pal.

i stand by my statements, and you run from them.

i said not ALL car salesmen are bad. i said that there are ALOT of them who DO want to take care of their customers.
see, if a salesman takes care of his customers, then those customers return.
is this a tough concept for you?

there's rotten salesmen, just like there's rotten lawyers, doctors, cops, and football fans.

i stand by my statements.

for the tenth time, you wanna stand by your 6-10 statement?

[bronco militia]

I'd beg to differ on the negativity thing. During and after the '99 season were about as negative as I can remember.

that was during the season after SOB and Blister took turns sucking and TD blew out a knee....

Good lord, we haven't even made it to training camp yet.

[-Slap-]

here we go again.
at least tell the truth pal.

i stand by my statements, and you run from them.

i said not ALL car salesmen are bad. i said that there are ALOT of them who DO want to take care of their customers.
see, if a salesman takes care of his customers, then those customers return.
is this a tough concept for you?

there's rotten salesmen, just like there's rotten lawyers, doctors, cops, and football fans.

i stand by my statements.

for the tenth time, you wanna stand by your 6-10 statement?

6-10 or 10-6, I'll still be here next year and you'll still be living in fantasy land.

Your old employers were good guys, right? That's what you seemed to be telling everybody at the time. I think I'll go looking for that old thread tonight. That was some entertaining reading the first time around.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

We may have or may not have addressed our needs. The answer to that lies ahead (i'm always hopeful). I'm not sold on all these cast offs from the Browns. Are we putting all our punt returner hopes on a munchkin rookie? We still don't have sourdoughboy signed (probably will but that spells the end for Ernster before he evens gets a chance). Can anybody kickoff into the endzone on this team? Walls already talking about how cool he is. Redzone scoring is still a question mark. WRs hopefully will start scoring down in close. RB position looks solid. QB, well, if there ever was a year to prove everyone right or prove everyone wrong, this is it Jake.
Just not a lot of things to jump up and down about. BUT, if Shanahan thinks he's acquired the players to win with now it's up to him to show them how to do it.
I'm hoping he can!!!! :thumbs:

[Rock Chalk]

Im just excited for some football.

[orange 4 life]

6-10 or 10-6, I'll still be here next year and you'll still be living in fantasy land.

Your old employers were good guys, right? That's what you seemed to be telling everybody at the time. I think I'll go looking for that old thread tonight. That was some entertaining reading the first time around.

by and large, they were.

when we moved home, i spent one awful month at an unethical dealer (skyline mitsu for anyone in denver), and i left.

the dealer i left in albuquerque was fair and honest, and they paid me every penny i was owed.
the dealer i worked at in santa fe was ethical and thrived on customer service, but unfortunately had one bad apple in the office (payroll) who screwed me out of money.
the rest of the people at that store i still talk to. great people.

the dealer im at now paid a salesman for an ordered unit 3 months after he left to pursue another career.
we never charge over sticker even for corvettes or other specialty vehicles, we are in a small farming part of town, and over half of our business is repeat.
we make a fair profit on our deals, and we give the customer the service they deserve.

..and what does that have to do with your 6-10 statement?

for the 11th time, are you going to stand by it?

i didnt ask you if you'd be here, i asked if you are going to stand by it.

are you actually so arrogant that you cant admit you flew off the handle and made a senseless remark?

say you were wrong, or stand by it.
either way, man up and own your remark, especially since you love to misquote others and bring up their remarks of old.

dont let reality stand in your way slappy.

[Old Dude]

I don't know what to expect this season.

There are too many unanswered questions.

1. If Trevor makes a full recovery, we'll get an improved pass rush and all the great things that go with that. But back injuries are scary. We have no idea if he'll return to form.

2. No one really knows what's going to happen with the new defensive line coach and all of his former Brownie DLs coming in. That gang certainly didn't light it up in Cleveland. But you have to figure he knows something about those dudes that we don't, because he certainly didn't have to make a play for them. Did we get away with highway robbery? Or were we swindled. I guess we'll find out.

3. How much gas do the old guys have in the tank, and how much improvement will we see from the 2d & 3d year people? These are questions every year, but we have an awful lot of key guys on the cusp - - one way or the other.

4. They certainly tried to address ST this year, but going after specialists is always a little scary. It might pay off big time. Or it might just be more of the same - - with an increased price tag.

5. I'm not as down on Jake as some, but there are question marks. Too many interceptions. And there have been times when he's been given great time to pass, but hasn't been able to take advantage of it. He's got fantastic mobility, but do you risk the injury? And, while I'm certainly not going lay all of the blame on him (because there is plenty to go around), Jake is at least part of our Red Zone problems.

6. Injuries. As in, "we haven't had much luck with..."

7. The AFC is tough. The Pats are two-time defending champions. The Colts have blown us away two years running, and almost all of that offense is coming back again.
Pittsburgh is flat-out dangerous. Jacksonville and the Jets are on the rise. The Ravens are always a thorn in our side.

And nothing is going to come easy in our own division. The Chargers made enormous progress last year. KC is always tough on the road. Oakland seems to be putting together a pretty dangerous offense even iftheir defense is still suspect. With the modern passing rules, that could get ugly.

Realistically, a very high percentage of these questions are going to have to play out in our favor in order to reestablish this club as a legitimate super bowl contender.

[delany]

I don't know what to expect this season.

There are too many unanswered questions.

1. If Trevor makes a full recovery, we'll get an improved pass rush and all the great things that go with that. But back injuries are scary. We have no idea if he'll return to form.

2. No one really knows what's going to happen with the new defensive line coach and all of his former Brownie DLs coming in. That gang certainly didn't light it up in Cleveland. But you have to figure he knows something about those dudes that we don't, because he certainly didn't have to make a play for them. Did we get away with highway robbery? Or were we swindled. I guess we'll find out.

3. How much gas do the old guys have in the tank, and how much improvement will we see from the 2d & 3d year people? These are questions every year, but we have an awful lot of key guys on the cusp - - one way or the other.

4. They certainly tried to address ST this year, but going after specialists is always a little scary. It might pay off big time. Or it might just be more of the same - - with an increased price tag.

5. I'm not as down on Jake as some, but there are question marks. Too many interceptions. And there have been times when he's been given great time to pass, but hasn't been able to take advantage of it. He's got fantastic mobility, but do you risk the injury? And, while I'm certainly not going lay all of the blame on him (because there is plenty to go around), Jake is at least part of our Red Zone problems.

6. Injuries. As in, "we haven't had much luck with..."

7. The AFC is tough. The Pats are two-time defending champions. The Colts have blown us away two years running, and almost all of that offense is coming back again.
Pittsburgh is flat-out dangerous. Jacksonville and the Jets are on the rise. The Ravens are always a thorn in our side.

And nothing is going to come easy in our own division. The Chargers made enormous progress last year. KC is always tough on the road. Oakland seems to be putting together a pretty dangerous offense even iftheir defense is still suspect. With the modern passing rules, that could get ugly.

Realistically, a very high percentage of these questions are going to have to play out in our favor in order to reestablish this club as a legitimate super bowl contender.


Great post. I agree almost across the board.

A high % of those things go right...then there will be a ton of 'I told you so' posts.....and if a high % of those things go wrong...then there will be a ton of 'I told you so' posts.

More than likely....it will end up being somewhere in the middle.

[easymobee]

I agree with the original poster - rep.

Being a fan of a team means being optomistic.

Espescially when there are things to be optomistic about.

The "Ones" that like to bag on the Broncos every offseason with visions of doom and gloom seem to enjoy that aspect of fandom .... i just assume let them have their fun.

[-Slap-]

by and large, they were.

when we moved home, i spent one awful month at an unethical dealer (skyline mitsu for anyone in denver), and i left.

the dealer i left in albuquerque was fair and honest, and they paid me every penny i was owed.
the dealer i worked at in santa fe was ethical and thrived on customer service, but unfortunately had one bad apple in the office (payroll) who screwed me out of money.
the rest of the people at that store i still talk to. great people.

the dealer im at now paid a salesman for an ordered unit 3 months after he left to pursue another career.
we never charge over sticker even for corvettes or other specialty vehicles, we are in a small farming part of town, and over half of our business is repeat.
we make a fair profit on our deals, and we give the customer the service they deserve.

..and what does that have to do with your 6-10 statement?

for the 11th time, are you going to stand by it?

i didnt ask you if you'd be here, i asked if you are going to stand by it.

are you actually so arrogant that you cant admit you flew off the handle and made a senseless remark?

say you were wrong, or stand by it.
either way, man up and own your remark, especially since you love to misquote others and bring up their remarks of old.

dont let reality stand in your way slappy.

I said more than once that 8-8 seems most likely, but your schtick is to keep hammering away at the 6-10 comment. Since that seems to keep you occupied enough not to start up stupid whiney threads like this one, I feel like I'm taking one for the Mane.

As I said repeatedly, I think the only way we avoid a .500 record is if Tatum (or Mo) become a top five back this season.

I know your pie in the sky mentality won't allow you to believe it, but all used car dealers are out to screw buyers (especially young ones), its just a matter of how badly.

[-Slap-]

More than likely....it will end up being somewhere in the middle.

Where we've been mired for the last six years.

[SoCalBronco]

id say 9-7 for this year.

[fontaine]

Seriously though, how does this team improve in the red zone.

The great Ron Dayne aside, the improvement will come from two areas:

1. If putz stays in red zone packages and gets his blocking down right. There's no doubt about his receiving speed.

2. I say we go for broke and let Jake run the ball in from anything less than 10 yards in. He's got the mobility and I'd rather him run the ball in than risk audibling a fade pass to Rod at the corner of the end zone. Sure Jake might get hurt, but he also might get lame slipping in the tub.

And no I don't see Lelie doing it in the red zone. He's a non factor there (sorry hawaii homers, flame me if you will), and doesn't have the game to get it done in the red zone.

[orange 4 life]

I said more than once that 8-8 seems most likely, but your schtick is to keep hammering away at the 6-10 comment. Since that seems to keep you occupied enough not to start up stupid whiney threads like this one, I feel like I'm taking one for the Mane.

As I said repeatedly, I think the only way we avoid a .500 record is if Tatum (or Mo) become a top five back this season.

I know your pie in the sky mentality won't allow you to believe it, but all used car dealers are out to screw buyers (especially young ones), its just a matter of how badly.

how convenient for you to have such a clueless and absolute viewpoint.

youre "taking one for the mane"?

whatever dipstick.

[-Slap-]

how convenient for you to have such a clueless and absolute viewpoint.

youre "taking one for the mane"?

whatever dipstick.

True heroism is rarely acknowledged. I accept that with an appropriately stoic attitude.

[Spider]

I will say what I always say 12-4 ......
as for the negativity , I have seen it worse 1 year ....1992 ....... Talk was Elway should retire or Be traded , he was Bringing the team down , Elway was played out , and those of that Said Elway has Plenty left , were stupid and didnt know what we was talking about ......
as for the Redzone , We have been the worst cause of the TE Position , but that is only my opinion .... I see our lack of Pass rush was our Problem , Shanny did what he felt is right here , we will see if he was .......
I think Plummer will do great this year .. I am still worried about the TE , but Maybe Putz is ready ....... 12-4

[Rohirrim]

We are a few players away. Unfortunately those players happen to be Walter Payton, Johnny Unitas and Deacon Jones.

LOL

As in every good joke, there's a grain of truth here. Who's the star player on the Broncos? . . . . Yeah. I give up too. I notice that every thread about what the Broncos will do this year has the word "if" in it a few times. "If" Jake does this, "if" Putz does this, etc. etc. etc. I remember playing that game during the Greaseboy days (and ever since). As in every season since Elway walked away, this team is STILL made up of journeymen, cast-offs, retreads, wannabes, hope-to-bes and maybes. Maybe Jerry Rice will save us?

At best, 8 & 8. 6 & 10 is not beyond the realm of probablility.

[DarkHorse30]

once again, im pretty mystified.

we were two PLAYS away from 10-6 last year, and we have improved on all THREE teams this offseason.
why anyone would be overly critical is beyond me.
it might be a bit early to make hotel reservations for the superbowl...

...but you might at least want to pencil in the time off work.
stop the negativity, and lets get back the collective confidence we havent had since elway retired.
:Broncos:

jake

Agreed. I think the old guys that constantly complain about Denver don't recognize what today's game is really about. The competition is fierce, especially in a tough division.

Sportswriters constantly berate a team.....because that's their job. But I'm not sure why Broncofans would be upset about our team the last few years.....especially when you consider the number of HOF-type players that have retired recently. Building a team isn't easy, but Shanahan appears to do a better job at this than maybe they'll admit

[yavoon]

the homer police are in town. its funny how ravenous some of these homer police are.

[Rascal]

I absolute love it when people question other people's loyalty or not being a true fan because they choose not to be homers. It's hillarious how being realistic constitutes you as being a bad fan and how those people are bandwagonners and not worthy to be called a true fan.

How about those fans that bitch and moan about some of the things they see and don't expect the team to finish 16-0, and honestly expect a 9-7 record or something similar, and still support and cheer for their team no matter what? Rain or shine they are always there.

Or how about those fans that cheer for every move made and expect their team to go 16-0 and win the SB. But when things fall apart you no longer see them.

This is hillarious.

[delany]

This is a 11-5 team next year...and a playoff win.

....and then the 3rd pick in the draft...

[MT-Tdawg]

We are a better team right now than at this time last year. I couldn't believe what I was hearing from the media here last year. 6-10, 8-8 at best, everybody thought we were doomed without Portis. We then go 10-6 without Pryce and Walls. It's hard to say what's gonna happen until we go through camp and then preseason, then we should have an idea of exactly what we have. I'd say at best 14-2, at worst 7-9. Personally I think Jake is gonna make a lot of doubters eat some crow this year, and we go 13-3 :homer:

[yavoon]

I absolute love it when people question other people's loyalty or not being a true fan because they choose not to be homers. It's hillarious how being realistic constitutes you as being a bad fan and how those people are bandwagonners and not worthy to be called a true fan.

How about those fans that b**** and moan about some of the things they see and don't expect the team to finish 16-0, and honestly expect a 9-7 record or something similar, and still support and cheer for their team no matter what? Rain or shine they are always there.

Or how about those fans that cheer for every move made and expect their team to go 16-0 and win the SB. But when things fall apart you no longer see them.

This is hillarious.

what I find funny also is everytime anything goes remotely right its like if u weren't saying it would go right u have no legal ability to be happy that it did because all the homers swarm down and claim supremacy over you.

[SoCalBronco]

what I find funny also is everytime anything goes remotely right its like if u weren't saying it would go right u have no legal ability to be happy that it did because all the homers swarm down and claim supremacy over you.

yes that bothers me too.

[bendog]

Billichick obviously has the league's number, but I look around and see teams like Carolina and the Lambs who have gone bowl and who aren't, imo, much different overall skill wise than Den. Last year's plan of dline pressure off the corners, obviously didn't work. Jake didn't consistently make plays from the pocket. I've got an open mind. Pryce and CB look like longshots. Shanny's got a lot riding on Warren and Ebaneazor has to fill Hayward's role. And, Bell.

[Spider]

as one of the Homer police , I will put it like this , the Broncos are my team , I can take shiat from Raider fan , Chief fan , Hell even Ravens fan , but Bronco fan , no way .... I allow people to vent , but to come in and consistanly bust on every freaking move , Every freaking player , News flash , if you knew as Much as you thought you did , you wouldnt be sitting here sharing your Genius on line , your ass would be in the NFL ....
and all of these Fire Shanny People , damn .......

[Odysseus]

Im just excited for some football.

There it is!

[SoCalBronco]

We are a better team right now than at this time last year. I couldn't believe what I was hearing from the media here last year. 6-10, 8-8 at best, everybody thought we were doomed without Portis. We then go 10-6 without Pryce and Walls. It's hard to say what's gonna happen until we go through camp and then preseason, then we should have an idea of exactly what we have. I'd say at best 14-2, at worst 7-9. Personally I think Jake is gonna make a lot of doubters eat some crow this year, and we go 13-3 :homer:

I dont think we are significantly better than last year. Either around the same or marginally better. However, our schedule is much more difficult than last year. In addition while we may have improved a little bit here and there, KC and Oak have improved their clubs far more relative to where they ended last year. SD did nothing in FA but i thought they had a really good draft. Merriman wont help them this year though since he is not taking part in any of the OTAs that will absolutely kill him as a rookie so far as development goes. Castillo i thought was their worst pick. Jackson will help them immediately in the red zone. Britt was a great pick and i could see him helping out this year at OT if there is an injury but he will be a future starter, not really an immediate guy. KC did a very good job of improving their back seven. I still think their front four sucks. Johnson is an excellent player and Bell will be good if he is healthy. I dont think Surtain is all world but he is good. KC improved themselves more than we did this offseason, i dont think that is in much dispute even among our homers. Their O could fall apart at any time because of age but i think KC is going to be good. Oakland will be good. That defense really sucks, we can pick on the other starting corner all day and their safeties do not impress me at all. I think the DL is underrated if they use them properly in a 4-3. I believe Anttaj Hawthorne will be the divisions 2nd most impressive defensive rookie outside of Johnson. He will start from day 1 and be a force for the Raiders. He will lead the team in TFL. You put Brayton at LDE in his natural habitat and move the bigger Douglas to the right side and you have a nice lineup. It isnt super, and there will still be problems getting heat from the edge but it isnt bad and Hawthorne will really help their run defense. I think the LBs are below average though. The Defense as a whole will still be below average but that DL is underrated if they use it properly. Their offense is going to be awesome. I think Oakland will be significantly improved.

[-Slap-]

Agreed. I think the old guys that constantly complain about Denver don't recognize what today's game is really about. The competition is fierce, especially in a tough division.

You're normally a sharp poster, but this is the biggest load of horsecrap posted on this board in weeks.

[Phantom]

Look at how many questions this team had going into last year ... no Portis and Shanny's RB luck has run dry, O line changes - Foster to start, Lepsis to switch, no more Sharpe, Lelie is a bust, Jake looks like a Cardinal's QB, we lost Gold and Berry, our DB's are all a bust and we overpayed for Champ, we signed grandpa Lynch, brought in broke down DL Luther and IHOP .......

There are less questions going into this season (IMO).

The other two teams in the top ten in D and O .... were in the Super Bowl. This team is only a few intangibles away - luck, injuries and turnovers.

[Spider]

Point is So Cal , if and this is a big if , the Browncos work out the way we hope , Denver and the Chargers will be in control ..... then again if they dont , we are right where we was last year with a healthy Pryce , not that he will make all the difference in the world, but it is still a step up .... K.C. and the Raiders had to get players , they lose these guys they Brought in they are in the Shiatter ....... Every year it is a risk . this year is no different ......

[DB-Freak]

Well this thread ****ing blows.

Sorry Taco.

There seems to be a reason to blindly justifiy why everything is going to be alright and why the homer view is superior to the realistic ones.

Look at how Jake justifies and tells how everything signing and plan is going to blossom.

I can't believe he actually believes the stuff he says.

[DB-Freak]

what I find funny also is everytime anything goes remotely right its like if u weren't saying it would go right u have no legal ability to be happy that it did because all the homers swarm down and claim supremacy over you.
Vindication is for little children who want attention.

[Spider]

Well this thread ****ing blows.

Sorry Taco.

There seems to be a reason to blindly justifiy why everything is going to be alright and why the homer view is superior to the realistic ones.
Well then get your ass to dove Valley , Dont tell us , show us ..........

[bombquixote]

We are a few players away. Unfortunately those players happen to be Walter Payton, Johnny Unitas and Deacon Jones.

you must spread the rep around before giving it to slap again.

[DB-Freak]

Well then get your ass to dove Valley , Dont tell us , show us ..........

I'm talking about how Jake has a "holier than thou" attitude about his opinions calling people who disagree with him bad fans and idiots.

I've been supporting the front office, because they sure know more alot more than me. I haven't been like a little bitch like Stoxman who considers his football sources from draft "experts and espn analysts.

[Spider]

I'm talking about how Jake has a "holier than thou" attitude about his opinions calling people who disagree with him bad fans and idiots.
Fair enough , Jake is Jake , he needs help ;D

I've been supporting the front office, because they sure know more alot more than me. I haven't been like a little b**** like Stoxman who considers his football sources from draft "experts and espn analysts.
Well the people I am talking about , rant about every player , Shanny never does anything right after Elway ..........

[DB-Freak]

Well the people I am talking about , rant about every player , Shanny never does anything right after Elway ..........

Armchair Gms are the second most pathetic thing next to internet tough guys.

But it's their life. What can you do?

[bendog]

JMO, but this is still the end of the Duke thing. There were a couple of dark years before shanny, and in the wake of the passing on pickens to get maddicks, but by and large, Den was a good bet to go bowl every year. Now it's parity. I'm not a homer if I look at SD and think they 1 arent' a better team talent wise and 2 just caught lightening with their dumbass personnel moves actually panning out. I'd take a big upset to get past NE, but NE at Denver with a decent under tackle and two funcitonal DE's .......

I'm just not sure Plan B is gonna give that. And, I still really question whether Jake can stand and deliver.

[Spider]

... We need to get production ..... Redzone woes will heal themselfs with Strong Play and control of the Hashmarks with a TE ......
We need to get Production from the Browncos , Pass Rush is the best pass defense ....
these 2 areas we lacked Play makers in last year .......

[Rascal]

It keeps getting better.

IMO this season depends on several things:

1) Pryce being healthy
2) At least one Brownco being a good player and another being a quality contributor
3) continuing development of Lelie, Bell, Watts, Putzier, and other skill positions
4) Jake doesn't throw 20 INT's again
5) O-line solidifies again
6) Special team additions come through

Just as many questions/concerns as last year. Wait till preseason then I'll make a decision. Rod/Jake/etc could get injured and the entire season would thrashed.

I also find it hillarious how people question other people's guesses on what the record will be for not being homeristic, and then they say if the pessimistic ones were so good they should be coaching or something. Look in the mirror hypocrites. LOL!!

[Spider]

Armchair Gms are the second most pathetic thing next to internet tough guys.

But it's their life. What can you do?
;D ridicule them ....... Seriously though , you know the type I am talking about , when Denver loses a game , People blast with both barrels , I hardly ever say a word , it is these Preseason guys , they get pissed cause we didnt bring their guy in ......

[DB-Freak]

;D ridicule them ....... Seriously though , you know the type I am talking about , when Denver loses a game , People blast with both barrels , I hardly ever say a word , it is these Preseason guys , they get pissed cause we didnt bring their guy in ......
Those types make me laugh too. Vindication is for little babies.

Tangentially.......
Realistic does not equal pessimistic..

[bendog]

;D ridicule them ....... Seriously though , you know the type I am talking about , when Denver loses a game , People blast with both barrels , I hardly ever say a word , it is these Preseason guys , they get pissed cause we didnt bring their guy in ......
I admit I wanted Pollard, Eukaban and Wahle.

[Spider]

It keeps getting better.

IMO this season depends on several things:

1) Pryce being healthy
2) At least one Brownco being a good player and another being a quality contributor
3) continuing development of Lelie, Bell, Watts, Putzier, and other skill positions
4) Jake doesn't throw 20 INT's again
5) O-line solidifies again
6) Special team additions come through

Just as many questions/concerns as last year. Wait till preseason then I'll make a decision. Rod/Jake/etc could get injured and the entire season would thrashed.

I also find it hillarious how people question other people's guesses on what the record will be for not being homeristic, and then they say if the pessimistic ones were so good they should be coaching or something. Look in the mirror hypocrites. LOL!!

Have looked in the Mirror , and guess what I am damn good looking ;D .....
you missed 1 major point ... we that are optimistic Put our Faith in Shanny , you know a Guy that won 2 SB's , I dont sit here and Pretend I am a better judge of talent , or Run a Playbook , Call a Game better .ETC ... there is a far cry from having faith in someone , as to claiming you can do better

[Odysseus]

what I find funny also is everytime anything goes remotely right its like if u weren't saying it would go right u have no legal ability to be happy that it did because all the homers swarm down and claim supremacy over you.

LOL Homer supremacy? You mean the homer nazis? Fear the Homer Nazis!!
You WILL be happy with this team! thwack We are Broncos fans and therefore genetically superior to all other fans online! You will be happy! If you stop running then they will stop chasing you.

I am happy with this off season. I'm willing to wait until pre season to be happy about the team. I think it's great we made some smart moves but we still have to do what we PLANNED to do. I'm a homer. I admit it but I think a lot of the fans should cut each other slack. Didn't anyone learn anything from 9/11? This is just football. It's not as big a deal as the bitter ones or the happy ones are making it.

Log off. Take a friend fishing. It's good for your fellow posters.

[Spider]

Those types make me laugh too. Vindication is for little babies.

Tangentially.......
Realistic does not equal pessimistic..
Realistic I dont have a problem with , hell if we are all going to be realistic , 32 teams are 1 starting QB from 8-8 or worse seasons ....... Anyone can coach a group of all stars , were we have to excell is Role Players , like a TE , Dline , I dont expect us to get another Sharpe , or a Gonzo , Gates , But someone solid is all I ask ....

[Taco John]

so, what did "the plan" have for us in the offseason?
semantics aside (a "couple" or a "few" players), we WERE only a "few" players away.
question is: did we get those players in this offseason?
answer: it is sure starting to look that way.


Based on what? We haven't played a down. I wouldn't put myself yet in the pessimists camp with regards to the potential of our team. But I sure can't say that we clearly have improved our team. How can we say that until we see which of these gambles pays off...


why the collective voice is one of skepticism if not flat out criticism i dont understand.
how spoiled have we become?

I think it has to do with the fact that these *are* gambles. There's no sure thing out of any one of the players that we picked up this year. So naturally, there is going to be some skepticism from some folks. Especially given the history we've had with some of our gamble free agents. Dale Carter and Daryl Gardener come immediately to mind. I don't personally think we have a Dale Gardener in mind, but I have fully prepared myself for the idea that Gerrard Warren could be the next incarnation of Lionel Dalton. While I personally think that our defensive line has gotten some good bodies in there that have potential to solve some of our problems, I can understand why there would be skepticism... and can sympathize with it.

If this is a parity league, we've got the ultimate parity team. I can see this group going all the way, or going 8-8. More likely, we'll finish 10-6.

[Rock Chalk]

Based on what? We haven't played a down. I wouldn't put myself yet in the pessimists camp with regards to the potential of our team. But I sure can't say that we clearly have improved our team. How can we say that until we see which of these gambles pays off...




I think it has to do with the fact that these *are* gambles. There's no sure thing out of any one of the players that we picked up this year. So naturally, there is going to be some skepticism from some folks. Especially given the history we've had with some of our gamble free agents. Dale Carter and Daryl Gardener come immediately to mind. I don't personally think we have a Dale Gardener in mind, but I have fully prepared myself for the idea that Gerrard Warren could be the next incarnation of Lionel Dalton. While I personally think that our defensive line has gotten some good bodies in there that have potential to solve some of our problems, I can understand why there would be skepticism... and can sympathize with it.

If this is a parity league, we've got the ultimate parity team. I can see this group going all the way, or going 8-8. More likely, we'll finish 10-6.

Everything is a gamble.

Even superstars are not gauranteed to improve a team. Players play differently in different systems. Case in point: Portis in Washington.

[Taco John]

Everything is a gamble.

Even superstars are not gauranteed to improve a team. Players play differently in different systems. Case in point: Portis in Washington.


Not to correct you, because I agree with your take... But Portis was about the only thing that team had going for them last season. If it wasn't for him, they'd have quite possibly finished without more than 3 wins. He's what is going to keep them competitive this year.

[Rock Chalk]

Not to correct you, because I agree with your take... But Portis was about the only thing that team had going for them last season. If it wasn't for him, they'd have quite possibly finished without more than 3 wins. He's what is going to keep them competitive this year.

No, what that team had NOT going for them was Daniel Snyder and a whole slew of "U" players.

Kinda like the same thing this year for them.

My point was, and it agreed with you in some respects, that being optimistic or pessimistic at this point is stupid.

The team addressed needs with what was available. Are they gambles? Yes. Everything in football is a gamble. But the fact that they did try to fill needs this offseason says that at least they know where theproblems lie and did the best they could with regards to cap and personell available.

In that regard, Denver had a good offseason. There is no way to tell how good it was because football hasnt started yet, but at least problems were addressed, especially in regard to field position and special teams, which was a big concern for our team last year, and indeed for a few years now.

[orange 4 life]

the homer police are in town. its funny how ravenous some of these homer police are.

no, the "have a brain" police are out.

[FADERPROOF]

who whoa whoa, let's take a deep breath and analyze this instead of just saying "If you don';t agree with what the Broncos are doing, you're an idiot or a band fan."

1.) Our pass rush sucked - offseason result: Bringing in Courtney Brown, Gerard Warren, and other Browns DL

Is this really the "improvement?" 2 first round busts, and 2 role players? Courtney Browns plays soft as hell and is often injured, Warren is a fat slob that shows up for 4 games a year. Sure, we're HOPING that a change in scenery is also a change in production, but do these changes honestly make people think that our pass rush WILL improve enough to feel confident about it?

2.) Lose Kelly Herndon - offseason result: Draft 3 CB's with with our 1st 3 picks in the draft.

Why? We have Lenny Walls and Champ Bailey as our current starters, drafted a few guys to compete for the nickel slot? There are a lot of questions with all of this. 1.) Why did we do it? Because of the Chiefs? Chargers? Raiders? Colts? There has to be some pass heavy team out there or division rival that makes us feel the need to be 5 deep at CB. 2.)Why not address some other needs in the draft? Where is a pick at DL? or offensive Guard? Safety? Why 3 cornerbacks when we DO have questions elsewhere in the draft?

3.) Trade Reuben Droughns - offseason result: Draft Maurice Clarett in 3rd round

I'll try to be unbiased as possible about this...we traded Droughns because he wanted a new contract, has Drew Rosenhaus as his agent, and this is now Tatum's time at RB. Mauirce may SEEM like a changed guy, but has there been anything concrete over the past couple weeks to make you really think that he won't get out of line? What if he has a good year, we'll be right back to where we were with Droughns with him wanting a new contract. We have Tatum, Q, Anderson already, why not wait until day 2 to select a RB? Fason, Houston, Barber? Guys that have produced at the college level without screwing up there college career and have actually played the past 2 seasons.

4.) Sign Ian Gold - offseason result: Move DJ Williams to SLB

Just great...not only do we overpay for Ian Gold, who left us in the first place, but we're once again compensating by moving a good WLB to strongside, ala John Mobley. Not only did we bend over to his contract demands, we bent over and took his demands of playing WLB as well. D.J. Williams is a potential ALL-PRO WLB, much like John Mobley was an ALL-PRO WLB, and Ian is just going to come in here and tell him to start bulking up and start learning how to play SLB. If it works out then great, DJ has a ton of talent and many think he'll be able to play SLB with the best of them, but is it a sure thing? NO.

These are just the big things that have gone on to the Denver Broncos this offseason. If you would look at these additions, you have to ask yourself if we really improved? I don't think we have, because every single one of those moves has a lot of questions marks by them, we didn't pull in a for sure lock this offseason, just a bunch of HOPE.

I personally don't blame guys for saying 6-10 or 7-9, because that's where we'll be if some of these risky moves don't pan out. Say the Cleveland DL still is a bust, or DJ can't perform up to his potential at SLB, then what? What if our CB's that we drafted don't live up to expectations in their first year and we get toasted in the air by Oakland, or Kansas City, or we make the playoffs and get toasted by Indianapolis again? Then what?

Blind homers are always nice to have, but don't criticize other people for not feeling the same way, these are all risky moves built on hope, and the reality is to take these moves with a voice of reason and caution.

[orange 4 life]

I absolute love it when people question other people's loyalty or not being a true fan because they choose not to be homers. It's hillarious how being realistic constitutes you as being a bad fan and how those people are bandwagonners and not worthy to be called a true fan.

How about those fans that b**** and moan about some of the things they see and don't expect the team to finish 16-0, and honestly expect a 9-7 record or something similar, and still support and cheer for their team no matter what? Rain or shine they are always there.

Or how about those fans that cheer for every move made and expect their team to go 16-0 and win the SB. But when things fall apart you no longer see them.

This is hillarious.

who are you talking to?

i hope not me.

whats hilarious and friggin sad is all these people that think theyre smart and/or football savvy because they arent "homers" and berate their team 24/7.

look, all i said is that we were 10-6 last year, we were two plays away from 12-4, and we improved in the offseason.
reason for excitement, not negativity.

if someone is a bit skeptical, considering our recent history, i can understand that, but i DO NOT understand a-holes like sandy clough who attack virtually EVERY move and further give NO credit for back to back 10-6 seasons.
i DO NOT understand people that scoff at the idea that we were only a few players away.
did we get those players?
i think so, but we wont know for awhile yet.

either way, its pretty f*cking old to have every positive post called "homerism" even when those posts are logical and reasonable.

predicting a 16-0 season is "homerism".
acknowledging that we've improved is common sense.

jake

[Rock Chalk]

these are all risky moves built on hope, and the reality is to take these moves with a voice of reason and caution.
So what makes Denver's offseason this year different than any other year or any other team in any other year?

Answer: Nothing.

[Ballhawk]

Why is it that when a team drafts a player they automatically have filld a hole? I mean crap, these kids have never played one frikin down in the NFL. Most Bust, yet the hole is filled? We take a Vet like EE and Warren who have proven they can play and have upside, and we have automatically failed to fill a hole because they have not yet reached the expectations of the media? Both these players have proven they can play in the NFL, which is more than any Rookies have done.

Then some go off on the failure of picking up a red zone threat. Well guess what, we have 7 players on offense that will be entering just their 2nd year as Starters or key role players: Lepsis, George, Cooper, Kyle, Bell, Putz, Watts. Do you think it is unrealistic to think that maybe, just maybe we will see some improvement here? Our offense should show improvement just by the experiance the gained last year, and yes I think Jake will be one of them.

So we drafted STers...that was our worse unit last year and the year before. I think given our salary cap restraints and the lack of a first rounder this year (does anyone regret this trade?), our front office has done us proud...so quit the b****in!

[Mile High Shack]

who are you talking to?

i hope not me.

whats hilarious and friggin sad is all these people that think theyre smart and/or football savvy because they arent "homers" and berate their team 24/7.

look, all i said is that we were 10-6 last year, we were two plays away from 12-4, and we improved in the offseason.
reason for excitement, not negativity.

if someone is a bit skeptical, considering our recent history, i can understand that, but i DO NOT understand a-holes like sandy clough who attack virtually EVERY move and further give NO credit for back to back 10-6 seasons.
i DO NOT understand people that scoff at the idea that we were only a few players away.
did we get those players?
i think so, but we wont know for awhile yet.

either way, its pretty ****ing old to have every positive post called "homerism" even when those posts are logical and reasonable.

predicting a 16-0 season is "homerism".
acknowledging that we've improved is common sense.

jake
I think conversely you could argue we were 2 plays away from being 8-8 too.

[FADERPROOF]

So what makes Denver's offseason this year different than any other year or any other team in any other year?

Answer: Nothing.

So you're ready for a 10-6 season with a blowout in the first round of the playoffs?

[Rock Chalk]

So you're ready for a 10-6 season with a blowout in the first round of the playoffs?
Try reading comprehension Pat.

Im ready for football. Whatever happens is going to happen, just bring on the football.

[FADERPROOF]

Try reading comprehension Pat.

Im ready for football. Whatever happens is going to happen, just bring on the football.

I'm also ready for football, that we can agree on.

[orange 4 life]

Well this thread ****ing blows.

Sorry Taco.

There seems to be a reason to blindly justifiy why everything is going to be alright and why the homer view is superior to the realistic ones.

Look at how Jake justifies and tells how everything signing and plan is going to blossom.

I can't believe he actually believes the stuff he says.

f*ck you.

6-10 isnt realistic, its f*cking moronic.

saying we're not improved over a year ago isnt realistic, its f*cking stupid.

if you have concerns and doubts thats fine, but dont attack people who actually believe that our moves will work out.
i didnt say i expected all our linemen to be productive.
i said if TWO of the four brownies succeed we're ahead. if EITHER pryce or ellis returns healthy.
if either of the THREE of anderson, dayne, clarett can make a difference in the redzone.

what a joke you are.
youre disgustingly negative and justify it by calling it "realism".

there's nothing unrealistic about a prediction of 11-5 and winning the division...

...though your could make a pretty strong case that 6-10 or even 8-8 is very unrealistic.

jake

[SoCalBronco]

who are you talking to?

ilook, all i said is that we were 10-6 last year, we were two plays away from 12-4, and we improved in the offseason.
reason for excitement, not negativity.

jake

jake, i think the problem is that this assumes everyone else has stayed the same and the schedule is no more different than last year. I think a very good argument can be made that Oakland and KC helped themselves more than we did. Our schedule is absolutely awful this year as well. To be fair, the rest of the division also has pretty tough schedules but i think those two teams helped themselves more than we did.

[orange 4 life]

I'm talking about how Jake has a "holier than thou" attitude about his opinions calling people who disagree with him bad fans and idiots.

I've been supporting the front office, because they sure know more alot more than me. I haven't been like a little b**** like Stoxman who considers his football sources from draft "experts and espn analysts.

bullsh!t freak.

i call people idiots and bad fans that bash EVERY move by the team.
people that take pot shots at players for no reason. people who ATTACK anyone with a positive attitude. people who give the team NO credit for any of their successes while highliting EVERY one of their failures.

are you slow?

let me repeat again.

if people have guarded optimism or even skepticism, i can understand that considering our recent few years.

if people give no credit for the 10-6 seasons, take pot shots at players, ignore even the POSSIBILITY of improvement, and predict losing seasons, youre damned right.
theyre bad fans AND idiots.

jake

[Rock Chalk]

bullsh!t freak.

i call people idiots and bad fans that bash EVERY move by the team.
people that take pot shots at players for no reason. people who ATTACK anyone with a positive attitude. people who give the team NO credit for any of their successes while highliting EVERY one of their failures.

are you slow?

let me repeat again.

if people have guarded optimism or even skepticism, i can understand that considering our recent few years.

if people give no credit for the 10-6 seasons, take pot shots at players, ignore even the POSSIBILITY of improvement, and predict losing seasons, youre damned right.
theyre bad fans AND idiots.

jake

Im am of the opinion that the only bad fan is one that calls other fans bad.

[orange 4 life]

It keeps getting better.

IMO this season depends on several things:

1) Pryce being healthy
2) At least one Brownco being a good player and another being a quality contributor
3) continuing development of Lelie, Bell, Watts, Putzier, and other skill positions
4) Jake doesn't throw 20 INT's again
5) O-line solidifies again
6) Special team additions come through

Just as many questions/concerns as last year. Wait till preseason then I'll make a decision. Rod/Jake/etc could get injured and the entire season would thrashed.

I also find it hillarious how people question other people's guesses on what the record will be for not being homeristic, and then they say if the pessimistic ones were so good they should be coaching or something. Look in the mirror hypocrites. LOL!!

see now i think these questions are valid.

) i think you ALSO need to add in ellis, and i'd say that its LIKELY that pryce or ellis (or both) will be healthy enough to be at least an IMPROVEMENT over wha we had a year ago.

2) agree 100%, and again i think its LIKELY that ONE will be a solid contributor. i think its also LIKELY that one will also at least be serviceable as a rotation player. could work out better, but UNLIKELY that it works out WORSE.

3) sure, continued development would be nice, and its ALSO likely that it will happen with at least a couple of those players. still, if the other pieces of the puzzle come together even CLOSE to as well as they should, vast improvement from these players is not vital. theyre good enough in last years form.

4) agree, but would like to add that its unlikely that he will. fact is, 11 of those picks were tipped balls. not likely that that will happen again. further, not likely that we'll have to play on such a consistently long field.

5) o-line has been consistent throughout shanny's tenure, and there's ZERO reason to think it wont be again. frankly, this is one i wouldnt have even mentioned. nothings changed except for dan neil, who was a walking holding call. carlisle or alexander will fill that role, and the other four guys are the same (not to mention that lepsis and foster should improve)

6) agree COMPLETELY, but its UNTIRELY unlikely that they wont. again, not ALL the additions need to make an impact, but you may just see that happen. if sauerbrun doesnt work out, we drafted a punter also. we brought back gold AND burns, and if ONE of the two plays at their old special teams level, that too is an improvement. we got a solid returner (gotta like the kids confidence too), and even if he isnt rick upchurch, its hard to even IMAGINE that he'll be worse than what we've had (unless you like the idea of rod back there again!!)

yes, things have to happen, but thats the case with EVERY team EVERY year.
bottom line is not EVERY piece of the puzzle needs to come together, and its VERY reasonable to think that MOST of these things will work in some capacity.
people that predicted a superbowl win in '99 may have been "homers" and "unrealistic", but simple logic tells us that predicting an 11-5 season and a division win is both homer AND realistic.

again, i can understand the guarded optimism or skepticism, but the downright negativity is a different story.

there's an ENORMOUS difference between "realism" and "pessimism".

jake

[orange 4 life]

Realistic does not equal pessimistic..

we sure agree on that!!

and conversely, transparent pessimism should NOT be confused with realism.

[orange 4 life]

Based on what? We haven't played a down. I wouldn't put myself yet in the pessimists camp with regards to the potential of our team. But I sure can't say that we clearly have improved our team. How can we say that until we see which of these gambles pays off...

I think it has to do with the fact that these *are* gambles. There's no sure thing out of any one of the players that we picked up this year. So naturally, there is going to be some skepticism from some folks. Especially given the history we've had with some of our gamble free agents. Dale Carter and Daryl Gardener come immediately to mind. I don't personally think we have a Dale Gardener in mind, but I have fully prepared myself for the idea that Gerrard Warren could be the next incarnation of Lionel Dalton. While I personally think that our defensive line has gotten some good bodies in there that have potential to solve some of our problems, I can understand why there would be skepticism... and can sympathize with it.

If this is a parity league, we've got the ultimate parity team. I can see this group going all the way, or going 8-8. More likely, we'll finish 10-6.

very fair and balanced post.

i too understand the skepticism, BUT (and its a big "but") we're not talking about ONE big player signing like gardener or carter.
we're not sinking all our eggs in one basket.

fact is, we got FOUR players for LESS money than hayward wouldve cost.
its pretty hard to see that deal NOT working out for us.
know what i mean?

[orange 4 life]

I personally don't blame guys for saying 6-10 or 7-9, because that's where we'll be if some of these risky moves don't pan out. Say the Cleveland DL still is a bust, or DJ can't perform up to his potential at SLB, then what? What if our CB's that we drafted don't live up to expectations in their first year and we get toasted in the air by Oakland, or Kansas City, or we make the playoffs and get toasted by Indianapolis again? Then what?

Blind homers are always nice to have, but don't criticize other people for not feeling the same way, these are all risky moves built on hope, and the reality is to take these moves with a voice of reason and caution.

if you dont blame the people who say 6-10, then its friggin NUTS to have a problem with someone saying 11-5 or 12-4.
fact is, thats only ONE or two more wins than a year ago.

as for your comment about the line, let me ask you this.

we lost reggie hayward.

we gained pryce, ellis, ukuban, myers, warren, and brown.

what are the odds that we're not imrpved?

[Ballhawk]

jake, i think the problem is that this assumes everyone else has stayed the same and the schedule is no more different than last year. I think a very good argument can be made that Oakland and KC helped themselves more than we did. Our schedule is absolutely awful this year as well. To be fair, the rest of the division also has pretty tough schedules but i think those two teams helped themselves more than we did.

I still do not follow how Oak and KC helped themselves more than we did. Yes Oakland went out and got Moss and Lamont. Moss led his team to how many SBs? I do not see Oak being any better on Offense than Minn was, infact they seem to be worse both on O and D compared to what the Vikings were for the past two years. Jordan has not proven he can be an every down back., so he is a ? They are hoping that their young TEs step up.

KC added Surtain. Outside of that every other player they got is a ? I know you love their pick of Johnson as a great pickup, but he is no sure thing either.

[orange 4 life]

Im am of the opinion that the only bad fan is one that calls other fans bad.

awesome.

if thats the case, ill wear that badge proudly.

let me get this straight.
someone who bashes his team 24/7 is okay in your book but someone who calls that person out isnt?

got it. that makes sense.

[Old Dude]

I still think there are just too many variables at this point.

If the Broncos have some of the right people develop at the right positions, if they avoid major injuries to key personnel, and if the ball bounces their way a few times then, sure, they can be a real threat to go all the way.

But the same thing can be said for almost half of the AFC.

[FADERPROOF]

if you dont blame the people who say 6-10, then its friggin NUTS to have a problem with someone saying 11-5 or 12-4.
fact is, thats only ONE or two more wins than a year ago.

as for your comment about the line, let me ask you this.

we lost reggie hayward.

we gained pryce, ellis, ukuban, myers, warren, and brown.

what are the odds that we're not imrpved?

We gained Pryce which makes it improved over Hayward, the rest are all questions.

[Cito Pelon]

i cant remember the media and fans so down either, and i go back to the 70's.

again, we were two plays away from 12-4, and we're improved in all three phases of the game.

yes, the bar is set high, and that DOES NOT mean that idiots like sandy clough should hammer everything the broncos do.
yes, we havent won a playoff game post elway, but we HAVE been consistently competitive, and we HAVE improved dramatically this offseason.
improvement equals more wins, more wins equals division title, division title equals home playoff game(s), home playoff games equal playoff wins.

seems to me that "logic" and not the ugly word "homerism".

Well, I'm not as down on Shanny & Co as I have been in the past, 'cause I think they've started to turn the corner. Some of these media guys are behind the curve. For so long very few media were willing to go after Shanny & Co, now that a couple have, the rest that have been holding back are piling on.

Mostly I'm optimistic for this year and next because I think maybe the organization has come to realize they aren't so fantastic and surreally omniscient that they just HAVE to be the cutting-edge coaching staff, the trend-setters, THE coaching staff all-time in the NFL. I sure hope I'm not going to see so many empty-backfield sets, WR's running all over the place, that's too much crap going on for almost any QB, unless the guy is a 7-foot cyborg

[Spider]

See Jake has a problem ,same Problem Ihave , it isnt our fault , we are old schooled in Colorado , and you will find a lot of Old Schoolers were bit by a Big orange bug called Bronco Mania , in our defense , there were no other outlets the Media covered hard core , hell I dont even know when the Nuggies came to Denver , but I can tell you the story of how the Phelps Brothers saved the Broncos and Kept them in Denver ...... Guys like me and Jake were fed Broncos 24/7 ...... Denver wasnt like it is now back then , Rick Upchurch Held a football summer camp , you can bet every kid knew about it and was there, Denver was much smaller ...... we could talk to our Heros , Denver was the only game in town , we grew up with Broncos Football as a religion , Raider week was celebrated , literaly in the news , in Schools , on the streets .... we have deep rooted love and Memories of our Broncos , the names change, but they are still the Broncos .........
And damn if we will change now ........ ;D

[Spider]

Orange Mania ...catch it ;D

[16-JakE-16]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but Lelie is going into his 4th year...Not 3rd

[Cito Pelon]

I have lost faith in our interior line, the ability to push back in the red zone.

And lastly, I have lost faith in Mike Shanahan to really address the true problems, w/o letting his hubris get in the way of true growth in our football team.

Ya know, it sure would be nice to have an actual Offensive-line coach, instead of a former linebacker that started out as a special-teams coach. The logic behind that is questionable, and Shanny's hubris, or his insecurity, having to have a yes-man, may be behind that. Having said that, the O-line wasn't pure awful last year, but I have to wonder if Denver wanted to try something differnet now and then, like pulling a guard or center sometimes on running plays, could Dennison implement something like that?

[SoCalBronco]

See Jake has a problem ,same Problem Ihave , it isnt our fault , we are old schooled in Colorado , and you will find a lot of Old Schoolers were bit by a Big orange bug called Bronco Mania , in our defense , there were no other outlets the Media covered hard core , hell I dont even know when the Nuggies came to Denver , but I can tell you the story of how the Phelps Brothers saved the Broncos and Kept them in Denver ...... Guys like me and Jake were fed Broncos 24/7 ...... Denver wasnt like it is now back then , Rick Upchurch Held a football summer camp , you can bet every kid knew about it and was there, Denver was much smaller ...... we could talk to our Heros , Denver was the only game in town , we grew up with Broncos Football as a religion , Raider week was celebrated , literaly in the news , in Schools , on the streets .... we have deep rooted love and Memories of our Broncos , the names change, but they are still the Broncos .........
And damn if we will change now ........ ;D

Please Spread Reputation around before giving it to Spider again.

[Spider]

Please Spread Reputation around before giving it to Spider again.
;D I do miss celebrating Raider week ....... Hard core slams on Raiders and their fans ....... It was great ;D

[Taco John]

very fair and balanced post.

i too understand the skepticism, BUT (and its a big "but") we're not talking about ONE big player signing like gardener or carter.
we're not sinking all our eggs in one basket.

fact is, we got FOUR players for LESS money than hayward wouldve cost.
its pretty hard to see that deal NOT working out for us.
know what i mean?



I hear ya man... And like I said... I'm optimistic in that I think we've got a team that has the potential to beat any team in this league on any given Sunday... But I also think we can lose to any given team in this league, which is where I think more people might be than the other.

Even with all of our moves, the question is whether we've got a group of Kavika Pittman's and Lionel Daltons, or if we've got a group of Alfred Williams and Keith Traylors.

I'm praying it's the latter, and giving the benefit of the doubt that they are.

[Rock Chalk]

awesome.

if thats the case, ill wear that badge proudly.

let me get this straight.
someone who bashes his team 24/7 is okay in your book but someone who calls that person out isnt?

got it. that makes sense.

Jake, dont be an ass.

Just because a person doesnt like the moves we made, doesnt think we are going to be a good team this year, does not make them a bad fan. It makes them a pessimist. Thats all. But I bet you even yavoon will be cheering on Sunday's for the Broncos to WIN the f*cking game.

And if you cant get that through your thick ****ing skull, then you are a bad fan. If you cant accept that not everyone thinks like you, or even WANTS to think like you, then you are not only a bad fan, but a bad human being. Face it, not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone agrees with me either. Who gives a ****? Really? Do you care if some twit on an internet message board disagrees with you? Does it bother you so much that you go off on rants 24/7 calling other people whom you have never met nor know outside of their internet persona a bad fan?

That sir, is not what a Bronco fan means to me. Bronco fans, agree or disagree, stick by one another and cheer for the Broncos. Whatever else happens is irrelevant to the discussion.

[-Slap-]

For the record, the only off season move I truly hate was that premature ejaculation of an Ian Gold signing. Especially with true Pro Bowlers (not special team alternates) like Peter Boulware sitting on the open market for less. I can pretty much go either way on a lot of the other stuff.

I'll say this on my own behalf, I take a hard loss way better than most of the people on this board. I spend a lot of time talking people off the ledge right after we drop a close one.

What amazes me is when our QB can throw four interceptions in a game that means first place and people become limbo masters bending over backwards for the guy.

Why?

A performance like that deserves major criticism, but people act like you've cussed their mommas. Hell, we can all see Shanahan screaming at the guy, why is anyone surprised when others jump on the dogpile?

[Spider]

That sir, is not what a Bronco fan means to me. Bronco fans, agree or disagree, stick by one another and cheer for the Broncos. Whatever else happens is irrelevant to the discussion.
100% on the money ... Damn now I got to give you some rep ........ :thumbsup:

[-Slap-]

100% on the money ... Damn now I got to give you some rep ........ :thumbsup:

I already repped him for the gay avatar.

;)

[Cito Pelon]

I don't know what to expect this season.

There are too many unanswered questions.

1. If Trevor makes a full recovery, we'll get an improved pass rush and all the great things that go with that. But back injuries are scary. We have no idea if he'll return to form.

2. No one really knows what's going to happen with the new defensive line coach and all of his former Brownie DLs coming in. That gang certainly didn't light it up in Cleveland. But you have to figure he knows something about those dudes that we don't, because he certainly didn't have to make a play for them. Did we get away with highway robbery? Or were we swindled. I guess we'll find out.

3. How much gas do the old guys have in the tank, and how much improvement will we see from the 2d & 3d year people? These are questions every year, but we have an awful lot of key guys on the cusp - - one way or the other.

4. They certainly tried to address ST this year, but going after specialists is always a little scary. It might pay off big time. Or it might just be more of the same - - with an increased price tag.

5. I'm not as down on Jake as some, but there are question marks. Too many interceptions. And there have been times when he's been given great time to pass, but hasn't been able to take advantage of it. He's got fantastic mobility, but do you risk the injury? And, while I'm certainly not going lay all of the blame on him (because there is plenty to go around), Jake is at least part of our Red Zone problems.

6. Injuries. As in, "we haven't had much luck with..."

7. The AFC is tough. The Pats are two-time defending champions. The Colts have blown us away two years running, and almost all of that offense is coming back again.
Pittsburgh is flat-out dangerous. Jacksonville and the Jets are on the rise. The Ravens are always a thorn in our side.

And nothing is going to come easy in our own division. The Chargers made enormous progress last year. KC is always tough on the road. Oakland seems to be putting together a pretty dangerous offense even iftheir defense is still suspect. With the modern passing rules, that could get ugly.

Realistically, a very high percentage of these questions are going to have to play out in our favor in order to reestablish this club as a legitimate super bowl contender.

Man, that gives teeth to the old saying "Raining on the parade." Sure it isn't going to be easy, but I'm thinking right now the team is going pretty much in the right direction.

To me, a lot depends on if the coaching staff can get the most out of the guys they have. Shanny & Co. have for years been trying to push the NFL envelope, trying to get way too complicated, and that's fine in theory, but a coaching staff has to scheme to their team's strengths, not to what they wish the guys can do.

And I'm optimistic the coaching staff is going to put forth a better effort this year. We'll see. I'm optimistic right now.

[Cito Pelon]

that premature ejaculation of an Ian Gold signing.


That about says it all about that signing. But maybe Monte Kiffin taught him something about playing D instead of just running around fast and looking at the Jumbotron replay of himself running around fast?????

That signing was a head-scratcher. Chukwurah can do that a lot cheaper, and probably better. Nevertheless, I'm stuill optimistic.


As an aside, Clarett occupied 3/4 of the Channel 9 news sports just now. Jerry Rice was the opening 1/4.

[Cito Pelon]

Seriously though, how does this team improve in the red zone.



I'd still like to know what happened to that old play in the red-zone in a two tightend set where one tightend would go across the line and at the snap dive into the line over one guard and open that hole just the little bit more to get the TD.

[-Slap-]

I'd still like to know what happened to that old play in the red-zone in a two tightend set where one tightend would go across the line and at the snap dive into the line over one guard and open that hole just the little bit more to get the TD.

I've always loved bringing that wham block down on an unsuspecting DT. Even if the play doesn't work, you've given that guy something to think about for the rest of the game.

[TotallyScrewed]

I think that every team in the AFCW has improved. The schedule is very difficult. Thank GOD, we get Balti here, for a change. My point being that 8-8, 9-7 COULD be the division winner.

Lucky breaks, the ball bouncing the right way, few injuries and the return of health, officials calling a few plays in favor of the Broncos, etc...all can swing games into the "w" column. The reverse, we're used to.

[DB-Freak]

**** you.

6-10 isnt realistic, its ****ing moronic.

saying we're not improved over a year ago isnt realistic, its ****ing stupid.

if you have concerns and doubts thats fine, but dont attack people who actually believe that our moves will work out.
i didnt say i expected all our linemen to be productive.
i said if TWO of the four brownies succeed we're ahead. if EITHER pryce or ellis returns healthy.
if either of the THREE of anderson, dayne, clarett can make a difference in the redzone.

what a joke you are.
youre disgustingly negative and justify it by calling it "realism".

there's nothing unrealistic about a prediction of 11-5 and winning the division...

...though your could make a pretty strong case that 6-10 or even 8-8 is very unrealistic.

jake
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't even know what my opinions or thoughts are on this and you claim out of your ass that I'm ****ing pessimistic? Are you out of your ****ing mind? Can you read my mind on what I'm thinking right now?

It's your homer policing and holier than thou attitude that's so ****ing hilarious.

Keep on blowing your lid without knowing ****.

[DB-Freak]

bullsh!t freak.

i call people idiots and bad fans that bash EVERY move by the team.
people that take pot shots at players for no reason. people who ATTACK anyone with a positive attitude. people who give the team NO credit for any of their successes while highliting EVERY one of their failures.

are you slow?

let me repeat again.

if people have guarded optimism or even skepticism, i can understand that considering our recent few years.

if people give no credit for the 10-6 seasons, take pot shots at players, ignore even the POSSIBILITY of improvement, and predict losing seasons, youre damned right.
theyre bad fans AND idiots.

jake

First you overexaggerate the negativity and just can't stand people having different views than you.

Aside from Telluride, Waffle, and maybe Yavoon, there isn't much pessimism as you think.

-edit- damn so many mistakes.

[Taco John]

For the record, the only off season move I truly hate was that premature ejaculation of an Ian Gold signing. Especially with true Pro Bowlers (not special team alternates) like Peter Boulware sitting on the open market for less. I can pretty much go either way on a lot of the other stuff.

I'll say this on my own behalf, I take a hard loss way better than most of the people on this board. I spend a lot of time talking people off the ledge right after we drop a close one.

What amazes me is when our QB can throw four interceptions in a game that means first place and people become limbo masters bending over backwards for the guy.

Why?

A performance like that deserves major criticism, but people act like you've cussed their mommas. Hell, we can all see Shanahan screaming at the guy, why is anyone surprised when others jump on the dogpile?



:thumbsup:

[TheReverend]

I think that every team in the AFCW has improved. The schedule is very difficult. Thank GOD, we get Balti here, for a change. My point being that 8-8, 9-7 COULD be the division winner.

Lucky breaks, the ball bouncing the right way, few injuries and the return of health, officials calling a few plays in favor of the Broncos, etc...all can swing games into the "w" column. The reverse, we're used to.


I liked that post the first time when SoCal wrote it... yesterday... nearly word for word. Odd.

Still, I disagree. I think we have the strength and will go 11-5 to 13-3

[Odysseus]

My point was..... being optimistic or pessimistic at this point is stupid.

I've said the same exact thing since the off season started.

I don't think getting knocked out of the first round of the playoffs is good or bad. It just happens. We could have gone 13-3 with a couple of key plays. We could have gone 8-8 on a couple of others. This team isn't anything to be scared of. Welcome to parity football.

I think the good news is the Broncos did make the needed off season adjustments but the bad news is this team is still nothing to be scared of. If they don't execute, don't get turnovers and die in the red zone NO MATTER WHAT THE DENVER POST SAYS...they might go 8-8 or 13-3. It always comes down to what the score is during the season.

Some of this stuff is really just luck. What if Tatum AND Reuben had been injured? Would we draft three RB? What if Pryce and the whole DL had been healthy? Would we have picked up the Browncos? There are a lot of question marks heading into mini camp. I think there is room for being optimistic or skeptical. It's still America...isn't it?

[Odysseus]

I've always loved bringing that wham block down on an unsuspecting DT. Even if the play doesn't work, you've given that guy something to think about for the rest of the game.

Great post. You make a great points throughout the thread including the Jake commentary.

[Odysseus]

What amazes me is when our QB can throw four interceptions in a game that means first place and people become limbo masters bending over backwards for the guy.

Why?

A performance like that deserves major criticism, but people act like you've cussed their mommas. Hell, we can all see Shanahan screaming at the guy, why is anyone surprised when others jump on the dogpile?

Let's revisit the Plummer issue. The Broncos have been HORRIBLE about finding ANY kind of Quarterback for years! This guy is the first ray of hope towards the type of player they should have been working with all along. Jake is just Jake.

It's hard to get all happy about a guy who even in the QB coaches interviews the only thing the guy could say is Jake essentially gets along with the other players. Wait a minute! That's it? Jake's a nice guy? This is essentially all that Jake has going for him. He does what the boss asks him to do. He'll probably show some improvements next year but in the end he's still just Jake.

If the Broncos win the Superbowl with Jake Plummer I'm going to have to spend the entire year defending Taco John and all the guys that rightfully attacked Jake because indeed Jake is just Jake.

I agree with you. If Shanahan's offense is dependent on him finding, building, working with, and developing the right QB then he needs to do that and burning up three years here and three years there isn't anything to be excited about. I think Jake will be better next year but I'm not banking on it.

I'll say it again for the record...I want the Broncos to stop pissing around when it comes to QB and get a QB system in place that works. They know how to build running backs why is the most important piece to the Broncos offense such a stretch to get right?

[Odysseus]

Try reading comprehension Pat.

Im ready for football. Whatever happens is going to happen, just bring on the football.

:militia: (Militia back in his better days)

We need a simile for Jake....both of them. There are a few of these similes that need to updated. Whose in charge of these anyways?

[baja]

Let's revisit the Plummer issue. The Broncos have been HORRIBLE about finding ANY kind of Quarterback for years! This guy is the first ray of hope towards the type of player they should have been working with all along. Jake is just Jake.

It's hard to get all happy about a guy who even in the QB coaches interviews the only thing the guy could say is Jake essentially gets along with the other players. Wait a minute! That's it? Jake's a nice guy? This is essentially all that Jake has going for him. He does what the boss asks him to do. He'll probably show some improvements next year but in the end he's still just Jake.

If the Broncos win the Superbowl with Jake Plummer I'm going to have to spend the entire year defending Taco John and all the guys that rightfully attacked Jake because indeed Jake is just Jake.

I agree with you. If Shanahan's offense is dependent on him finding, building, working with, and developing the right QB then he needs to do that and burning up three years here and three years there isn't anything to be excited about. I think Jake will be better next year but I'm not banking on it.

I'll say it again for the record...I want the Broncos to stop pissing around when it comes to QB and get a QB system in place that works. They know how to build running backs why is the most important piece to the Broncos offense such a stretch to get right?

think almost everyone would agree that we need to be developing a QB for the post Jake era. With the Washington trade next years draft will be the perfect time to get that franchise QB we have been needing but had no realistic way of accquiring.

[Odysseus]

think almost everyone would agree that we need to be developing a QB for the post Jake era. With the Washington trade next years draft will be the perfect time to get that franchise QB we have been needing but had no realistic way of accquiring.

You are right. The need for a real deal franchise quarterback is obvious. I don't want to speculate what the Broncos are going to do with that first round pick. Fans are already pissed at the team and they haven't even started mini camp.

[MileHighMania]

All of this 'doom and gloom' is a product of a few things... Shanahan taking over in 1995 and winning 8 games, before ripping off 3 magical seasons with 13, 12 and 14 wins... not to mention 2 SB titles during John's final years.

That 3 year span, winning two SBs and the ability to always have a great running game have spoiled many that follow the Broncos. Hell, even since Elway retired, the Broncos have won the most regular season games than any other AFCW team ... they are just the only team without a divisional title or playoff wins. Denver was beat down by the Ravens and Colts twice.

A lot of folks have filed away the lean years or the "pre Shanahan" era deep into their memories and forget what it was once like.

It's been 6 years since we've won a playoff game... some teams (ie - Chiefs) have been going on for a full decade or more since their last playoff win.

It's been 6 years sicne we've won a SB (two in fact) ... lots of teams don't have one.

Shanahan is a victim of too much early success, the bar was set incredibly high. Yeah, he's made some incredibly bone headed decisions, but he's done well at times too.

The last two seasons have ended horribly and many fans (media) are left with bad tastes in their mouths... and this offseason hasn't exactly been about acquiring guys that make you feel warm and fuzzy. So, there's a lot of heat right now.

Just think back to all the different signings that have worked for this club during the Shanahan tenure... sometimes you just don't know what will happen until they play, so why dwell in the negativity until you must?

Shanahan's been the coach for 10 years... only 4 seasons were less than 10 wins and only 1 has been below .500. The goal is the Superbowl, but the fact is that it's damn hard to get there.

Hopefully this offseason works out and the team can compete for the divisional crown and advance in the postseason.

[MileHighMania]

By the way - I'm not trying to cut Shanahan slack. While it has been "only 6 years", we need some post season success.

Everyone's easy target is Plummer, hell he doesn't help himself with the INTs... had he had only 15 INTs last year, I think we'd all be happy. Hitting that 20 mark is insane.

I believe that Jake can do great things with this offense... here's to Bell and Putz stepping up and being more productive in 2005.

[crazyhorse]

Weren't you also a couple plays away from an 8-8 season?

The new defensive line help is considered the worst in the league against the run and has a track record indicating there's a good chance they don't have much to offer.

Couldn't these arguements be at least as, if not more logical than what you are saying?

[Odysseus]

think almost everyone would agree that we need to be developing a QB for the post Jake era. With the Washington trade next years draft will be the perfect time to get that franchise QB we have been needing but had no realistic way of accquiring.

This is my point exactly. The season hasn't even started and we are already talking about next year's draft.

I'll use Christmas as a comparison. (Faderpoop...this one's for you)

The happy people are tickled to dive into a piles of Reindeer crap determined to believe the presents are hidden inside.

The Neo Sith Goth fans lay out milk and cookies laced with three kinds of poison and a pit bull with Ebola certain that even if the fat bastige exists he's up to no good.

I love offseason.

[Odysseus]

Weren't you also a couple plays away from an 8-8 season?

Yes. They could have done a LOT better as well. Believe it!

I think a lot of the fixes on Special Teams (which are anticipated not actualized) should provide this team a little better stability whether the DL takes a crap or not this year.

I don't think this team is dominant but I think because they fixed some of their real depth issues they are going to be a little tougher down the stretch.

[orange 4 life]

Jake, dont be an ass.

Just because a person doesnt like the moves we made, doesnt think we are going to be a good team this year, does not make them a bad fan. It makes them a pessimist. Thats all. But I bet you even yavoon will be cheering on Sunday's for the Broncos to WIN the ****ing game.

And if you cant get that through your thick ****ing skull, then you are a bad fan. If you cant accept that not everyone thinks like you, or even WANTS to think like you, then you are not only a bad fan, but a bad human being. Face it, not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone agrees with me either. Who gives a ****? Really? Do you care if some twit on an internet message board disagrees with you? Does it bother you so much that you go off on rants 24/7 calling other people whom you have never met nor know outside of their internet persona a bad fan?

That sir, is not what a Bronco fan means to me. Bronco fans, agree or disagree, stick by one another and cheer for the Broncos. Whatever else happens is irrelevant to the discussion.

i agree and disagree my friend.

look at my chat with taco. i dont care if people dont agree with me. i dont care if people arent as optimistic as i am, and i completely understand the skepticism.

still, i dont think unrealistic pessimism is okay, and i think i have a right to say that.
yes, those people still have a right to cheer for whatever team they want, and as long as theyre cheering for the orange and blue ill be right along side them all season.
still, i think its okay to call them out on their pessimism. hell, i think they SHOULD be called out on their pessimism.

does it bother me?
hell yes it bothers me.
it bothers me when BRONCO fans call our qb "the mistake".
it bothers me when BRONCO fans look at this team and predict a losing record.
it bothers me when 8 thousand people dont use their tickets because its snowing.
it bothers me when we get behind and you can hear a pin drop in the stadium.
it bothers me that the sea of orange we once had is now a pokadot pattern of orange.

i could care less if people agree with my analysis of the teams offseason, but i DO care if those people go OVERBOARD with the pessimism.

fact is, it contributes to a COLLECTIVE attitude around town, in the stadium, in the media, and at bars and homes where the games are watched.

we used to be known as THE most loyal, dedicated, passionate, and loud fans in the nfl.
that reputation is gone, and i believe alot of it is the collective spoiled pessimistic attitude advanced by SO MANY of our younger fans (and even some of the older ones)

maybe nothing i say will make a sh!t bit of difference to anyone, but if they have the right to spout negativity, i should have the right to not like it, and to counter with positive.

jake

[orange 4 life]

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't even know what my opinions or thoughts are on this and you claim out of your ass that I'm ****ing pessimistic? Are you out of your ****ing mind? Can you read my mind on what I'm thinking right now?

It's your homer policing and holier than thou attitude that's so ****ing hilarious.

Keep on blowing your lid without knowing ****.

show me how predicting 11-5 is being a "homer".

also, explain how wanting people to come together and get EXCITED about the team instead of getting down on it is "holier than thou"

like alec said, at the end of the day, we're supposed to be on the SAME side, so i apologize for the nature of my comments to you, but i didnt care for your first post.
show a little optimism, and immediately get tagged "homer", "holier than thou", and "i dont know how (i) believe what i say"

it wasnt necessary.

used to be optimism was EXPECTED, and apparently now its a bad thing, even when optimism is logical.

why do i assume youre pessimistic?
well, probably because you attacked my first post even though it wasnt directed at you in any way.

jake

[orange 4 life]

If the Broncos win the Superbowl with Jake Plummer I'm going to have to spend the entire year defending Taco John and all the guys that rightfully attacked Jake because indeed Jake is just Jake.


i dont know about anyone else, but you wont have to defend taco.

taco will just admit he was wrong.
simple as that.

[orange 4 life]

think almost everyone would agree that we need to be developing a QB for the post Jake era. With the Washington trade next years draft will be the perfect time to get that franchise QB we have been needing but had no realistic way of accquiring.

well not EVERYONE agrees with that, but i suppose most do.

personally, i think it would be alot like maddox in the early nineties.
in other words, a waste of a pick.

plummer is 30.
even if he goes out relatively young, that would still be 35 and give us five more years.

worry about another starting qb in a few years.
right now, the need isnt there.

[DB-Freak]

show me how predicting 11-5 is being a "homer".

also, explain how wanting people to come together and get EXCITED about the team instead of getting down on it is "holier than thou"

like alec said, at the end of the day, we're supposed to be on the SAME side, so i apologize for the nature of my comments to you, but i didnt care for your first post.
show a little optimism, and immediately get tagged "homer", "holier than thou", and "i dont know how (i) believe what i say"

it wasnt necessary.

used to be optimism was EXPECTED, and apparently now its a bad thing, even when optimism is logical.

why do i assume youre pessimistic?
well, probably because you attacked my first post even though it wasnt directed at you in any way.

jake
Calling others bad fans and idiots is not a sign of showing a little optimisim.

Second the season can go either ways. You call others who predict season less optimistic than yours and you call them idiots and pessimists. Hardly anyone here is being pessimistic. I don't need to reason this out anymore. It should be pretty obvious.

[orange 4 life]

Calling others bad fans and idiots is not a sign of showing a little optimisim.

Second the season can go either ways. You call others who predict season less optimistic than yours and you call them idiots and pessimists. Hardly anyone here is being pessimistic. I don't need to reason this out anymore. It should be pretty obvious.

gimme a friggin break.

i never even directed the comment at any one person.
i said i think its idiotic to look at this team and predict 6-10. also, i think thats so RIDICULOUSLY negative that its being a sh!tty fan.
sorry if you dont like that.

i dont need to reason this out anymore.
should be pretty obvious.

what the ****?
i try to make peace, and this is the sh!t you come back with?

whatever dude.

dont put ****ing words in my mouth.
others are less optimistic, and some are MORE optimistic....

...and then there's the people that live to spout negativity.
if youre not one of those people, get off my ass and respect that i have some faith.

[DB-Freak]

gimme a friggin break.

i never even directed the comment at any one person.
i said i think its idiotic to look at this team and predict 6-10. also, i think thats so RIDICULOUSLY negative that its being a sh!tty fan.
sorry if you dont like that.

i dont need to reason this out anymore.
should be pretty obvious.

what the ****?
i try to make peace, and this is the sh!t you come back with?

whatever dude.

dont put ****ing words in my mouth.
others are less optimistic, and some are MORE optimistic....

...and then there's the people that live to spout negativity.
if youre not one of those people, get off my ass and respect that i have some faith.
Do you honestly believe that Slap thinks the Bronx will go 6-10? He is just saying that out of pure spite. If Slap had money down on this record prediction stuff it wouldn't be the same.

Second who else predicted a 6-10 record?

And isn't it so funny how so many people came here to disagree with you. And not about your predictions, but you're judgement of others. This wasn't ever about the record predictions. This was about you and your judgements on others. You obviously confuse negativity with realism and cautiousmess. I haven't seen one guy who said 6-10 or below aside from slap in this thread and I hardly believe that he believes that. And then you felt the need to make a thread about it bashing people regardless of it being direct or indirect. And this hasn't been the first time you said this kind of stuff either.

Being pessimistic hardly means you're a bad fan. Just purely from your perspective without any reason. Long as you're a loyal and steady, it doesn't matter. Doom gloom and negative to the max doesn't mean you're a ****ty fan or a bad one. Just a pessimistic or a stupid one. But just as stupid as a uber homer one(no this wasn't directed at you).

[orange 4 life]

Do you honestly believe that Slap thinks the Bronx will go 6-10? He is just saying that out of pure spite. If Slap had money down on this record prediction stuff it wouldn't be the same.

Second who else predicted a 6-10 record?

And isn't it so funny how so many people came here to disagree with you. And not about your predictions, but you're judgement of others. This wasn't ever about the record predictions. This was about you and your judgements on others. You obviously confuse negativity with realism and cautiousmess. I haven't seen one guy who said 6-10 or below aside from slap in this thread and I hardly believe that he believes that. And then you felt the need to make a thread about it bashing people regardless of it being direct or indirect. And this hasn't been the first time you said this kind of stuff either.

Being pessimistic hardly means you're a bad fan. Just purely from your perspective without any reason. Long as you're a loyal and steady, it doesn't matter. Doom gloom and negative to the max doesn't mean you're a ****ty fan or a bad one. Just a pessimistic or a stupid one. But just as stupid as a uber homer one(no this wasn't directed at you).

it wasnt directed at slap either. slap ammended.

it was primarily directed at sandy clough, callers on radio shows, and people around town.
non stop negativity.

incidentally, its ALSO interesting how many people came on to AGREE with me.
again, if youre not the constantly negative guy, dont take it personally and respect some confidence.

based on the definition of the word "fan", i'd say a little unbridled optimism is acceptable if not intelligent.
realism is fine too. guarded optimism. skepticism.
unfounded pessimism on the other hand is much different.

in fact, it goes against the spirit of the word.

[ZachKC]

I have not read this whole thread. Being totally honest and putting my Anti Broncos hat to the side I don't believe this team will ever get to the place you guys want it to be with Jake Plummer at the helm. That doesn't mean you won't have a good team but he will not get you folks to the next level.

[DB-Freak]

it wasnt directed at slap either. slap ammended.

it was primarily directed at sandy clough, callers on radio shows, and people around town.
non stop negativity.

incidentally, its ALSO interesting how many people came on to AGREE with me.
again, if youre not the constantly negative guy, dont take it personally and respect some confidence.

based on the definition of the word "fan", i'd say a little unbridled optimism is acceptable if not intelligent.
realism is fine too. guarded optimism. skepticism.
unfounded pessimism on the other hand is much different.

in fact, it goes against the spirit of the word.
I'm not a constantly negative guy and nor hardly anyone here in this board is constantly negative either aside from a few.

[sirhcyennek81]

Putting my anti-chiefs bias aside, i dont think Trent Green will get you guys where you want to go. Just my opinion, tho.

[F**kOakland]

as one of the Homer police , I will put it like this , the Broncos are my team , I can take shiat from Raider fan , Chief fan , Hell even Ravens fan , but Bronco fan , no way .... I allow people to vent , but to come in and consistanly bust on every freaking move , Every freaking player , News flash , if you knew as Much as you thought you did , you wouldnt be sitting here sharing your Genius on line , your ass would be in the NFL ....
and all of these Fire Shanny People , damn .......


NICE!!!!

[MileHighMania]

Weren't you also a couple plays away from an 8-8 season?

That's the NFL - teams are a couple of plays away from having a couple of wins or a couple of losses every season. Denver *could* have been 8-8 and they *could* have been 12-4. I point to the Raiders' game in Denver as a game they should have won, and the same goes for the game at Jacksonville.

It all evens out.

The new defensive line help is considered the worst in the league against the run and has a track record indicating there's a good chance they don't have much to offer.

Couldn't these arguements be at least as, if not more logical than what you are saying?

Ok, you're looking at the 4 guys from Cleveland as if Denver is planning on starting all 4. Fact is, only 2 - Warren and Brown - figure to start. Pryce wasn't a part of that Browns' line that sucked and neither were the returning Broncos' d-linemen from 2004. Another fact is the Browns' had crappy linebackers which will affect the performance of your line.

Denver has a load of talent at LB and the secondary is nice, so you can stop painting the picture that Denver is looking for all 4 former Browns to start. :puff:

[Rock Chalk]

I have not read this whole thread. Being totally honest and putting my Anti Broncos hat to the side I don't believe this team will ever get to the place you guys want it to be with Jake Plummer at the helm. That doesn't mean you won't have a good team but he will not get you folks to the next level.

Well, now that we have Zach's opinion, we can all sleep easier tonight.

[ZachKC]

Putting my anti-chiefs bias aside, i dont think Trent Green will get you guys where you want to go. Just my opinion, tho.
Since 2001 the Green led Chiefs have had an offense that has the most points (1,754), most yards (24,278), and has been the most efficient inside the 20-yard line (64.3 percent).

Something tells me our troubles are not with our QB.

[MileHighMania]

Since 2001 the Green led Chiefs have had an offense that has the most points (1,754), most yards (24,278), and has been the most efficient inside the 20-yard line (64.3 percent).

Something tells me our troubles are not with our QB.


Ok, is it the Green led Chiefs or the Holmes' led Chiefs...

[orange 4 life]

Since 2001 the Green led Chiefs have had an offense that has the most points (1,754), most yards (24,278), and has been the most efficient inside the 20-yard line (64.3 percent).

Something tells me our troubles are not with our QB.

griffin fumbled within chip shot range of elam, watts dropped a td pass on the final drive against the raiders, the defense allowed 40 plus points to kc and indy (no comments from the peanut gallery), and 35 points in the first HALF in the playoff game.

11 of plummers 20 int's were tipped balls (green had 17 int's i might add), plummer threw for 4100+ yards, 27 td's, and has run for over 400 yards and 4 td's in his two years.

something tells me our troubles are not with our qb either.

jake

[ZachKC]

Ok, is it the Green led Chiefs or the Holmes' led Chiefs...
You tell me, that offense has gone through some long stretches without my guy Holmes. Esp. the end of last year, the O didn't really miss a beat. LJ was in the backfield during our domination of you guys in Arrowhead. The kid ripped off a 32 yard touchdown that left Lynch (who was in a perfect position to make a tackle) in a cloud of dust. Our air attack has gone pretty well considering we don't have any WRs who I would consider great. He even finds a way to get Eddie Kennison in the endzone against some good secondaries scorching some pro bowl corners who I will leave nameless. Green in the past years at least once (and I think twice) has had a game with a perfect QB rating. The guy gets it done.

[ZachKC]

griffin fumbled within chip shot range of elam, watts dropped a td pass on the final drive against the raiders, the defense allowed 40 plus points to kc and indy (no comments from the peanut gallery), and 35 points in the first HALF in the playoff game.

11 of plummers 20 int's were tipped balls (green had 17 int's i might add), plummer threw for 4100+ yards, 27 td's, and has run for over 400 yards and 4 td's in his two years.

something tells me our troubles are not with our qb either.

jake
The line between winning and losing in the NFL is minimal. Jake Plummer is not a leader. He does not make things happen. You can sit there and rationalize all you want but when it comes time for your team to step up your QB is nowhere to be found.

[orange 4 life]

The line between winning and losing in the NFL is minimal. Jake Plummer is not a leader. He does not make things happen. You can sit there and rationalize all you want but when it comes time for your team to step up your QB is nowhere to be found.

well zach, i think youre a nice guy and all, but thats the dumbest thing youve said in awhile.

of all the things you could knock jake on, his leadership skills is the one thing you cant.
whether its teammates (who voted him captain 2 years straight) or coaches, EVERYONE agrees that jake is the leader of this team...

....on the field AND off.

also, as far as GAMES are concerned, maybe you havent looked at the 4th quarter comeback stats?
maybe you missed the jville and oakland game where he DID lead us to victory, only to have someone yank it out from under him (though he wouldnt throw them under the bus)
maybe you missed cleveland the year before?
or maybe you missed when after he threw the ill fated fade pattern at san diego he brings as back AGAIN and wouldve put us in position to tie if watts hadnt dropped another one.

fact is, plummer is an outstanding pressure player.

if you want to critique his ability to throw a tight spiral or some of his decision making fine, but to question his leadership or nerves under pressure is just plain ignorant.

coming to the game this year?

[ZachKC]

Nothing personal but just knowing your style I am not suprised this is coming from you. Jake could have his way with your wife and you would tell the Mane that it means you guys are going to win the title.

There are times when Jake Plummer looked like he didn't know a god damn thing about football. He would look flat out lost.

If you want to take responsibility for all tipped passes away from him then be my guest. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears about his INTS and poor decisions and sing along then thats cool. But your team is hurting because of him and most of your fellow fans know it. I am not talking about the doom and gloomers. I am talking about the knowledgable fans. Hell, I have seen TJ bend over reeeeeallly far backwards in my day to try and support some players.

But tell me again how much amazing courage and attitude he showed when he flipped of your fanbase. I personally think he flips off your fanbase every time he cashes his pay check.

Let me put it this way. Our defense last year at one point held that Plummer offense to 10 points....10 freakin points. Blue Springs High School in KC could have notched 17 on that group.

I don't think he is a bad player. He has some very unqiue skills and when he is "on" and used the right way he is a real weapon. But those times are few and far in between. And while you guys have great players around him I dont think you have the caliber of player that makes up for his shortcomings.

[orange 4 life]

Nothing personal but just knowing your style I am not suprised this is coming from you. Jake could have his way with your wife and you would tell the Mane that it means you guys are going to win the title.

well wasnt that a cheap shot. below the belt and classless.
argue, be playful, call me a moron or a dumb donk, but talking about people ****ing my wife?
that IS personal
not even worthy of a response.


There are times when Jake Plummer looked like he didn't know a god damn thing about football. He would look flat out lost.

If you want to take responsibility for all tipped passes away from him then be my guest. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears about his INTS and poor decisions and sing along then thats cool. But your team is hurting because of him and most of your fellow fans know it. I am not talking about the doom and gloomers. I am talking about the knowledgable fans. Hell, I have seen TJ bend over reeeeeallly far backwards in my day to try and support some players.

But tell me again how much amazing courage and attitude he showed when he flipped of your fanbase. I personally think he flips off your fanbase every time he cashes his pay check.

Let me put it this way. Our defense last year at one point held that Plummer offense to 10 points....10 freakin points. Blue Springs High School in KC could have notched 17 on that group.

I don't think he is a bad player. He has some very unqiue skills and when he is "on" and used the right way he is a real weapon. But those times are few and far in between. And while you guys have great players around him I dont think you have the caliber of player that makes up for his shortcomings.

trent had 3 less int's.
a bronco fan could make the same tired speech about trent.

fact is, plummer is an excellent leader and playmaker.
again, if you want to criticize other areas of his game you might have some valid points, but attacking his leadership skills is ignorant.

as for the finger, it wasnt the smartest move ever, but courage had nothing to do with it either way.
a few things there.

1) bronco fans arent like they used to be. i remember an interview where an emoptional tom jackson talks about the number of people cheering for them after they LOST the '77 superbowl. recalling the crowd singing "we love you broncos"
he goes on to say the ONE time he heard the crowd boo them he had to stop and look around. he couldnt believe it was happening.
unfortunately, these young spoiled dillwads and wine and cheese corporate turds arent the same.

2) if i have been sitting there, plummer wouldnt have had to resort to that. the tool heckling him wouldve been launched out of the stands. did you catch rod smiths interview afterwards?
he said he "couldnt believe the crap the guy was saying", and went on to say that "if jake hadnt done it i wouldve".

3) plummer made NO excusus afterward, and apologized for his actions. frankly, the ****er deserved it, and i wish more people wouldve covered THAT side of it. paying for a ticket doesnt give you a right to act like an idiot.

4) again, giving ONE fan the bird (not to be confused with the plural form fanS) has nothing to do with his courage and leadership with his team on the field or off.

jake

[TotallyScrewed]

You suck ZachKC.

Just like that azz who was heckling Plummer. Not fan behavior at all.

You don't like Plummer, fine. That means, that he's all right and gets into your head. Good! I'm sure you like him less and less each time your D-line bites on the RB only to let Jake run outside. Plummer's made his mistakes and we have knocked him for them. Those mistakes say nothing about his leadership or where he'll go from here.

You can't see any problems with Green...like the double reversing of his field only to get sacked for a 27+ yard loss, the fourth quarter interception in the endzone both of which change the entire complexion of the games. No problem, we're content with that and him, too.

None of that alters the fact that YOU SUCK. It's one thing to think something noxious and quite another to abuse your freedoms.


PS...I apologize, in advance, to anyone who may have written this first. These are probably not original ideas, very few, if any, of mine are. ;D

[Rock Chalk]

Nothing personal but just knowing your style I am not suprised this is coming from you. Jake could have his way with your wife and you would tell the Mane that it means you guys are going to win the title.

Ouch, uncalled for. No need to bring the dude's wife into your smack, you got better class than that.

There are times when Jake Plummer looked like he didn't know a god damn thing about football. He would look flat out lost.

Yes, and so did Trent Green at times. Hell, so does Payton Manning when he does get pressured. Brett Favre also has looked lost at times.

If you want to take responsibility for all tipped passes away from him then be my guest. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears about his INTS and poor decisions and sing along then thats cool. But your team is hurting because of him and most of your fellow fans know it. I am not talking about the doom and gloomers. I am talking about the knowledgable fans. Hell, I have seen TJ bend over reeeeeallly far backwards in my day to try and support some players.

Youve seen TJ bend over reaaaallly far backwards? Wow.

But tell me again how much amazing courage and attitude he showed when he flipped of your fanbase. I personally think he flips off your fanbase every time he cashes his pay check.

I thought it was funny and the ones he flipped off most probably deserved it for their comments. There is such thing as common decency you know.

Let me put it this way. Our defense last year at one point held that Plummer offense to 10 points....10 freakin points. Blue Springs High School in KC could have notched 17 on that group.

Yeah, everyone had a bad day that day. Denver played miserably all around and it wasnt JUST Plummer. Clever try though.

I don't think he is a bad player. He has some very unqiue skills and when he is "on" and used the right way he is a real weapon. But those times are few and far in between. And while you guys have great players around him I dont think you have the caliber of player that makes up for his shortcomings.
Glad to know your opinion.

[ZachKC]

All of you guys think you can have the same conversation with Green? Why isn't it going on?

I have seen extensive conversations on this board about Plummer's ability to make this team win.

You want to know why this conversation does not happen with Green? He has led the best offense in the whole NFL since 2001 and when it comes time for the offense to go to work he doesn't **** himself.

But of course at times other people suck as well which seems to help Alec sleep at night. Great angle.

[ZachKC]

You suck ZachKC.

Just like that azz who was heckling Plummer. Not fan behavior at all.

You don't like Plummer, fine. That means, that he's all right and gets into your head. Good! I'm sure you like him less and less each time your D-line bites on the RB only to let Jake run outside. Plummer's made his mistakes and we have knocked him for them. Those mistakes say nothing about his leadership or where he'll go from here.

You can't see any problems with Green...like the double reversing of his field only to get sacked for a 27+ yard loss, the fourth quarter interception in the endzone both of which change the entire complexion of the games. No problem, we're content with that and him, too.

None of that alters the fact that YOU SUCK. It's one thing to think something noxious and quite another to abuse your freedoms.


PS...I apologize, in advance, to anyone who may have written this first. These are probably not original ideas, very few, if any, of mine are. ;D


Why would he get in my head? I love the fact that he is the QB of your team. I think your team would have been a dangerous one with a great QB last year.

Who said that I don't think Green has any faults? I sure didn't.

Who is abusing what freedoms?

[TotallyScrewed]

Yeah, yeah, whatever.


Just for your education...Your judged by what you say. Freedom of speech isn't really free...you're held responsible. Which doesn't mean you can't be forgiven, but you've got to recognise mistakes and own up. It's your choice.

[DBroncos4life]

I don't think Green is bad at all. He fits KC's O and he makes it work pretty well. He makes mistakes that Plummer doesn't make but it goes both ways. I don't think you will ever see Plummer take a sack on 4th down and I don't think Green will throw a pass with his left hand. Both qb's play to the strenghts of the team and both coaches get the most out of them. One thing Green has over Plummer is the fact that hes been in that O for a few more years. This should be a break out year for Plummer now that he has two years of this O under his belt. Both teams need them because without them they are done.

[watermock]

People should be advised that mock has gone into full offseason homer mode.

Look, people were ready to hang SOB from the nearest tree in mob rule. The best available was a QB from Arizona that has a taste for INT's. When Mock told you that he was going to throw picks, I was laughed at. I think he is marginally better than SOB because he can move the pocket.

Taco has allready picked an oak tree for the guy, I say give him one more year. I don't know if I see a franchise QB worth trading both our #1's for. Certainly not the USC QB.

I haven't really looked into QB's honestly. If we trade both our number 1's, I want a true franchise QB.

As far as our other moves, you know how I have beaten down the plan. It started out with Denver spending millions more than it should of in Gold, but only a few million if you really look back. I was thinking 5 million, he got 8.5. So be it. It's not a back breaker. The issue was moving Williams to Sam after a decent rookie campaign. Still, Coyer must of stamped it, so we roll with it.

As far as the Browncos go, I don't see a downside. All 4 are a fraction of the cost of that total asshole, IHOP. Just because Cleveland has been swiming in feces the past decade doesn't mean me can't pick the dumpster and hose them down and put them in decent clothes. Again, a slick move considering our cap situation. A couple pan out, great, we cut a couple, no big deal, it's all meat.

ESPN can jack with the Clarett pick, but they sure as hell will have to show his mug pounding thru some no name Faider on Primetime. They made their bed, now they get to lay in it.

I had a Steven A. Smith sighting yesterday, and yes, he's still an idiot.

Overall, we got alot of fairly fresh meat on the hoof considering our cap situation.

We got some help on special teams with the gnat, and the fat.

Everyone got their pudding. We have no major distractions. All that is left is to beat down Myer's Pop, and all is in total harmony. Kumbaya....

We don't have Rosenhaus beating down our cell phones, no flavor clowns flying over handlbars, and no holdouts, we traded that problem child to Snyder. That can be dealt with next year. Pryce is back, figuratively and literally, and won't have to man a DT position, we have plenty of slackers like Davis, Pope, Warren...Fatty....The list is so long and the depth so rediculous. We have to cut almost half our DL to get to the roster. Damn, we should be able to sort thru that!

Gold isn't a bad player at all. He's not going to be the first player overpaid, and won't be the last. I think he's a team player, and really wanted to play in Denver last year, before the Poston's poisoned his mind. I think Shanahan sent a message with that signing that the Postons aren't welcome in Denver. With good reason.

They can't even wipe their own asses yet alone be bothered with things like mamba lamba doo doo. That is a true comedy act.

We have another clown in Saurkraut, but he should like the thin air, if he doesn't malinger around the brothels and manages to get his punts off in time. I can see it allready....Ray Ray at Mile High blocks the punt for a touchdown. Please tell me this premonition is just my imagination.

At the OL, we have shored up a bit, but it's still weak. Shelton would be a coup, but I doubt he's that interested in Denver. We are still a man short on the OL.

RB we have a herd of rams. I'm not even concerned. We have 5 that can run. Bell, Clarett, Anderson, Q, Sapp.

When I said we should bring in a vet reciever, I didn't figure on dragging a HOF Bust in called Jerry Rice. He's great, but wrong decade dude. We have Yoda in Rod Smith. No use pissing him off. Bring in some idiot in Freddie or maybe Troy Brown. Jerry Rice, I love ya, but damn...give Elway a call and line up some hookers or something...

[DBroncos4life]

I think we will look at Chris Leak from Florida. If he proves that he can be move in Myers O then he will jump up in the draft. He has a very good arm and from what I have seen he is pretty accurate.

[ZachKC]

Yeah, yeah, whatever.


Just for your education...Your judged by what you say. Freedom of speech isn't really free...you're held responsible. Which doesn't mean you can't be forgiven, but you've got to recognise mistakes and own up. It's your choice.
Who are you talking to?

How am I not respnsible for things I am saying?

What makes you think I am trying to be forgiven for anything?

You never answered any of my first questions...

Who is abusing what freedoms? If you are talking about freedom of speech then the fact that see your disagreement with what I say as me "abusing" freedom of speech makes your comprehension of the spirit of freedom of speech laughable.

And why did you infer that I think Green has no faults when I never said that.

[ZachKC]

I don't think Green is bad at all. He fits KC's O and he makes it work pretty well. He makes mistakes that Plummer doesn't make but it goes both ways. I don't think you will ever see Plummer take a sack on 4th down and I don't think Green will throw a pass with his left hand. Both qb's play to the strenghts of the team and both coaches get the most out of them. One thing Green has over Plummer is the fact that hes been in that O for a few more years. This should be a break out year for Plummer now that he has two years of this O under his belt. Both teams need them because without them they are done.
Plummer took a sack on 4th down in Arrowhead last year.

[SoCalBronco]

I think we will look at Chris Leak from Florida.

ugh!~

[ZachKC]

To go on, Free Speech is not really something that exists on an internet message board. The owner of this establishment has the ability to limit or do away with my speech on his board.

For more research I would examine the case study of The Orange Mane vs. Renos 2005

[MileHighMania]

You tell me, that offense has gone through some long stretches without my guy Holmes. Esp. the end of last year, the O didn't really miss a beat. LJ was in the backfield during our domination of you guys in Arrowhead. The kid ripped off a 32 yard touchdown that left Lynch (who was in a perfect position to make a tackle) in a cloud of dust. Our air attack has gone pretty well considering we don't have any WRs who I would consider great. He even finds a way to get Eddie Kennison in the endzone against some good secondaries scorching some pro bowl corners who I will leave nameless. Green in the past years at least once (and I think twice) has had a game with a perfect QB rating. The guy gets it done.

I dunno... Holmes went down in week 9, and KC was 3-5. Green threw 12 TDs and 6 INTs.

After Holmes... KC was 4-3. Green threw 15 TDs with 11 INTs.

So, while the team won 1 more game... Green was more productive from a TD/INT ratio with Holmes.

Even though LJ did a HELL of a job, Green was forced to do more and while the TDs were great, the INTs were very Plummer-like. So, looking at it, I say it's still Holmes' team.

[watermock]

We could always overturn the dictator, but someone has to pay the bills. I like the Emperor. He gives us our little serf plots and we faithfully plant them according to plan. If he starts taxing us unfairly, there might be a coup.

For now, the citizenry seems placated.

[DBroncos4life]

Plummer took a sack on 4th down in Arrowhead last year.


Ok I guess I have to make it clearer for you. HE WON'T TAKE A SACK ON 4TH DOWN WHEN THE GAME IS ON THE LINE. Funny after all I said thats all you had. **** me for trying. Green sucks ass and will never take KC anywhere.

[DBroncos4life]

4-2-KC41 (6:58) J.Plummer sacked at KC 41 for 0 yards (K.Mitchell).

0 yard sack. I dont remember the play but he didn't lose yards, maybe it was a busted play or designed running play.

[watermock]

We are perfectly capable of lynching our own QB's without any help from KC fan.

[Mediator12]

All of you guys think you can have the same conversation with Green? Why isn't it going on?

I have seen extensive conversations on this board about Plummer's ability to make this team win.

You want to know why this conversation does not happen with Green? He has led the best offense in the whole NFL since 2001 and when it comes time for the offense to go to work he doesn't **** himself.

But of course at times other people suck as well which seems to help Alec sleep at night. Great angle.

Sorry Zach, but as much as Trent is a friend he sure does.

1. Green was 33 for 66 50%; 0 TD's and 2 INT's, QB rating of 54 in two opening losses.

2. Marcus Coleman 102 yd TD INT in a 24-21 loss to the Texans at home in game three.

3. O. Ruff INT ON SECOND DOWN in Red Zone while Chiefs trailing NO by Seven with 1 min to go in 4th Quarter. Chiefs loss 20-27.

4. Trent Green sacked on 4th down and 6 with ONE MIN LEFT trailing NE by eight.

5. Four INT performance v SD to pull to a .500 record. Jake was not the only AFC west QB to throw 4 INT's at SD last year.

[Clockwork Orange]

Sorry Zach, but as much as Trent is a friend he sure does.

1. Green was 33 for 66 50%; 0 TD's and 2 INT's, QB rating of 54 in two opening losses.

2. Marcus Coleman 102 yd TD INT in a 24-21 loss to the Texans at home in game three.

3. O. Ruff INT ON SECOND DOWN in Red Zone while Chiefs trailing NO by Seven with 1 min to go in 4th Quarter. Chiefs loss 20-27.

4. Trent Green sacked on 4th down and 6 with ONE MIN LEFT trailing NE by eight.

5. Four INT performance v SD to pull to a .500 record. Jake was not the only AFC west QB to throw 4 INT's at SD last year.

The only one you missed was TrINT getting sacked on 4th down with 1:15 to go trailing Tampa Bay by 3.

It's funny, Griese got torched in this town because he didn't win. Plummer gets torched because he hasn't won a playoff game here. Meanwhile in KC, TrINT leads the Chefs to the playoffs once in 4 years, hasn't won a playoff game and Chef fan tells us that he "gets it done." Whatever works for you, I suppose.

[Mediator12]

The only one you missed was TrINT getting sacked on 4th down with 1:15 to go trailing Tampa Bay by 3.

It's funny, Griese got torched in this town because he didn't win. Plummer gets torched because he hasn't won a playoff game here. Meanwhile in KC, TrINT leads the Chefs to the playoffs once in 4 years, hasn't won a playoff game and Chef fan tells us that he "gets it done." Whatever works for you, I suppose.

Whoops! Still trying to give him credit I guess. That was the three sacks in four plays and Ian Gold fumble recovery that was given back. Oh well, no one is perfect :dummy:

[watermock]

The Messiah may appear next year. My vision is cloudy, but it might happen.

Next year has to play out, but I don't see a franchise QB at this point.

[watermock]

Of course we want another Duke of Denver, but I just don't see it.

Other people know more than I do. I am perfectly happy to dump both our number ones for a franchise QB, but I dunno.

[DBroncos4life]

ugh!~



I don't think hes that bad SoCal

[sirhcyennek81]

so since 2001...how many times have the chiefs made the postseason under trint green? how many playoff wins? the team green was on, that won the superbowl in 1999, was qb'd by his backup. BUT...why let a thing like reality kick KC in the ass?

[NFLBRONCO]

I think 05 will be interesting esp because all the new additions we have added. Drafting MC will take focus off Plummer and might help him this year. The 2 #1's will help us add key talent that we really need to reach 12 games. I hope this years schedule ends up being tough I want a true measure of our team.

[wabbit]

...I don't believe this team will ever get to the place you guys want it to be with Jake Plummer at the helm...

Oh, brother...based on what...two pages of analysis from The Sporting News Pre-Season Special Edition

...and Plummer doesn't have leadership skills?

Every player, without exception...every, single one I've talked to including Rod Smith, Tom Nalen, Al Wilson... even Champ Baily ALL say Plummer's leadership skills are the single most evident facet of his personality.

Shanahan noted his leadership skills in justifying paying the huge off-season bonus

...but Zach knows better folks...Hear Ye, Hear Ye...can't believe those 'homer' players &, God knows, Shanahan HAS to lie to protect his job you see.

man oh man what a pile

[NFLBRONCO]

I understand the negativity as well. If you look into our team last year and team 7 yrs ago the difference is swagger confidence in guys making clutch plays late in games and red zone scoring. We definately lack the swagger right now.

[SoCalBronco]

I don't think hes that bad SoCal

1. He's barely 6 feet flat.

2. He isnt accurate.

3. By the time he leaves Florida he will have played in two gimmick offenses, neither of which resembles anything like an NFL style offense.

4. He isnt a great decisionmaker.

5. Anytime he plays a relatively good defense he gets owned. Watch the Peach Bowl, LSU game, FSU game etc.

Overall, no thanks.

[crazyhorse]

You guys want to hold Green accountable when he runs the #1 offense in the league the last 3 years, but has the worst defense to overcome.

While you try to justify Plummer throwing left handers on the 3 yard line with the #4 defense in the NFL.

You boys just kinda make it up as it suits you best, huh?

Oh well. Look at it this way, it makes the Clarett pick easier to suck, don't it?

[crazyhorse]

Oh, brother...based on what...two pages of analysis from The Sporting News Pre-Season Special Edition

...and Plummer doesn't have leadership skills?

Every player, without exception...every, single one I've talked to including Rod Smith, Tom Nalen, Al Wilson... even Champ Baily ALL say Plummer's leadership skills are the single most evident facet of his personality.

Shanahan noted his leadership skills in justifying paying the huge off-season bonus

...but Zach knows better folks...Hear Ye, Hear Ye...can't believe those 'homer' players &, God knows, Shanahan HAS to lie to protect his job you see.

You really are the court jester.

Rep

man oh man what a pile

[Atlas]

You guys want to hold Green accountable when he runs the #1 offense in the league the last 3 years, but has the worst defense to overcome.

While you try to justify Plummer throwing left handers on the 3 yard line with the #4 defense in the NFL.

You boys just kinda make it up as it suits you best, huh?

Oh well. Look at it this way, it makes the Clarett pick easier to suck, don't it?

I can't wait to see Clarett put a 100 on you guys

[Spider]

You guys want to hold Green accountable when he runs the #1 offense in the league the last 3 years, but has the worst defense to overcome.
;D where to start .. Lets see all we need is Gunther , I remember saying Ha!

While you try to justify Plummer throwing left handers on the 3 yard line with the #4 defense in the NFL.
Plummer is Plummer ..... But then he doesnt have the TE Like Gonzo or Gates yet , tell me do you believe Brees all of the sudden got it , or was it Gates ?

You boys just kinda make it up as it suits you best, huh?
No basicaly what we are sayig is , if Plummer had a TE controling the Hashmarks , you would be seeing a different plummer , only Problem is we know what we are talking about , so we dont break it down for chief fans , and for that we are Bad .... ;D

Oh well. Look at it this way, it makes the Clarett pick easier to suck, don't it?
LOL a supplemental 3 rd round draft pick that sucks .... there is a reach for ya , but when it comes to Running backs who else has Shannys track Record ?

[-Slap-]

I can't wait to see Clarett put a 100 on you guys

What so damn funny is you just know that's gonna happen.

:laugh:

[Mediator12]

You guys want to hold Green accountable when he runs the #1 offense in the league the last 3 years, but has the worst defense to overcome.

While you try to justify Plummer throwing left handers on the 3 yard line with the #4 defense in the NFL.

You boys just kinda make it up as it suits you best, huh?

Oh well. Look at it this way, it makes the Clarett pick easier to suck, don't it?

The point was there to refute Zach's assertion that Green does Not Screw himself when it is crunch time. In review, Green screwed the Chiefs in crunch time just as much if not more than Plummer did last year. I did not believe it myself until I looked at his performances from last season.

I did not see all the KC games last year live, but looking at the tapes Green sure did contribute to that Loss total personally when the game was on the line.

So, to review Green is just as fallible with a HIGH POWERED OFFENSE that scores 65% of the time in the Red Zone as Plummer was last year with the second worst Red Zone % when the games were on the line.

Look, I went to School with Trent and Julie and have repeatedly defended him here. However, the record speaks for itself from last year. Sure the defense was crappy, but when the rubber met the road last year Trent was not pulling off many last second heroics was he?

[fontaine]

The point was there to refute Zach's assertion that Green does Not Screw himself when it is crunch time. In review, Green screwed the Chiefs in crunch time just as much if not more than Plummer did last year. I did not believe it myself until I looked at his performances from last season.

I did not see all the KC games last year live, but looking at the tapes Green sure did contribute to that Loss total personally when the game was on the line.

So, to review Green is just as fallible with a HIGH POWERED OFFENSE that scores 65% of the time in the Red Zone as Plummer was last year with the second worst Red Zone % when the games were on the line.

Look, I went to School with Trent and Julie and have repeatedly defended him here. However, the record speaks for itself from last year. Sure the defense was crappy, but when the rubber met the road last year Trent was not pulling off many last second heroics was he?

hm . . . All quite on the ketchup and mustard front.

[Odysseus]

The only one you missed was TrINT getting sacked on 4th down with 1:15 to go trailing Tampa Bay by 3.

It's funny, Griese got torched in this town because he didn't win. Plummer gets torched because he hasn't won a playoff game here. Meanwhile in KC, TrINT leads the Chefs to the playoffs once in 4 years, hasn't won a playoff game and Chef fan tells us that he "gets it done." Whatever works for you, I suppose.


Rep!

[bloodsunday]

This thing is like 8 pages long and I intend to read/reply to it all, but here is my initial thoughts....

A) The reason(s) that the attitude is of skepticism/optimism are: 1) Shanny has a lightning rod personality (he needs to cry more?) 2) the Broncos have been destroyed in the playoffs and look farther away from contending than their record indicates 3) they tend to fade later in the season instead of finishing strong and 4) the Broncos have higher standards (Super Bowl) than most teams and aren't afraid to judge themselves on the highest scale.

B) Guys like Mike and Sandy are controversial beause its what people want to talk about. Denver is a Broncos town and always will be. The only way for 950 to keep their ratings up during Rockies season is to raise a controversial point about the Broncos. Joe Williams is the king of that. He doesn't believe half the crap he spews, its all about stirring up a talk radio audience.

C) The Plan. I agree with you on the simple fact that we have addressed our perceived weak areas to the extent we can in one offseason. Addressed means that we added players, in some places Pro Bowl caliber players. There are certainly no sure things here, but the opportunity to improve is present. The thing that shouldn't be overlooked is that most of these moves come with very little risk based on what we gave up. I don't like the fact that we wasted an entire draft on DBs, we have Warren in a contract year, and that Brown has a back-loaded deal, but I can live with all 3. I'm not sure I could live with giving Hayword 25 million. Having said all that, there is likely work left to be done next offseason.... You must also remember that there are some risk left (questionable depth on the o-line, WR, and QB), although no one has a complete roster top to bottom.

D) Do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and don't get caught up in the whole debate that we were one or two plays (or players) away from anything. It's a bad argument and the scoreboard is all that counts. Denver, as a whole, has struggled to make the impact play of late. So yes, if they make a few more impact plays a season then they are a 12 (or more) win team. But that's the difference between Super Bowl teams and pretenders. The Broncos must collectively make more impact plays to turn this team from continually being an above average team into a contender. It's not a surprise that Denver is one of the top teams in the league between the 20's and early in the season, because that is when coaching can dominate. But during crunch time (redzone, 3rd down) and late in the season (when your tendencies are well documented) players must simply out-execute the opponent. The Broncos are not getting it done.

[orange 4 life]

All of you guys think you can have the same conversation with Green? Why isn't it going on?

I have seen extensive conversations on this board about Plummer's ability to make this team win.

You want to know why this conversation does not happen with Green? He has led the best offense in the whole NFL since 2001 and when it comes time for the offense to go to work he doesn't **** himself.

But of course at times other people suck as well which seems to help Alec sleep at night. Great angle.

wanna know why the conversation isnt happening with green?

because you guys are okay with mediocrity.
because you havent won a superbowl since the '69 season, and therefore the expectations are alot less.

only reason this conversation comes up with plummer is because the expectations in denver are ALOT higher than they are in kc.

people here expect to win every year, and therefore back to back 10-6 seasons arent enough, and then you of course have a bunch of people who pick the easiest targets, which of course are the coach and the queaterback.

[Atlas]

wanna know why the conversation isnt happening with green?

because you guys are okay with mediocrity.
because you havent won a superbowl since the '69 season, and therefore the expectations are alot less.

only reason this conversation comes up with plummer is because the expectations in denver are ALOT higher than they are in kc.

people here expect to win every year, and therefore back to back 10-6 seasons arent enough, and then you of course have a bunch of people who pick the easiest targets, which of course are the coach and the queaterback.

It's funny how Denver has had Backtoback 10-6. They have added alot of players this year and are close to being an elite team but yet there is so much negativity surrounding the team. Spoiled F*$&#ing rotten is what we are.

[orange 4 life]

What makes you think I am trying to be forgiven for anything?


you sure should be

[sirhcyennek81]

Denver, since 2000, has been the most consistent of the afc went teams, finishing second damn near every single year. time to move up. Tired of this wildcard BS. Team has more talent on this roster then a 10-6 record. No excuses, get it done.

[orange 4 life]

You guys want to hold Green accountable when he runs the #1 offense in the league the last 3 years, but has the worst defense to overcome.

While you try to justify Plummer throwing left handers on the 3 yard line with the #4 defense in the NFL.

You boys just kinda make it up as it suits you best, huh?

Oh well. Look at it this way, it makes the Clarett pick easier to suck, don't it?

...and we also have had one of the WORST defenses with respect to turnovers.
weve had one of the WORST special teams in average starting field position.
and we've been average in scoring defense.

...but dont let those facts get in your way. blame it on plummer. it isnt the smart thing, but it sure is easier.

[Atlas]

Denver, since 2000, has been the most consistent of the afc went teams, finishing second damn near every single year. time to move up. Tired of this wildcard BS. Team has more talent on this roster then a 10-6 record. No excuses, get it done.

I agree. But there should be a sense of optimisum not dred,

[sirhcyennek81]

I exude the aura of optimism. I see great things in this team.

[orange 4 life]

It's funny how Denver has had Backtoback 10-6. They have added alot of players this year and are close to being an elite team but yet there is so much negativity surrounding the team. Spoiled F*$&#ing rotten is what we are.

amen.

that was pretty much the point of the thread back on page one.

hey, i want superbowls as much as anyone, and i take losses harder than....well, harder than anyone else ive ever met,

BUT, that DOES NOT mean that 10-6 sucks. especially not when that 10-6 was so close to being 12-4.
especially not when we lost our two best defensive linemen for the season.

yes, the expectations ARE higher here, but that DOES NOT mean we cant appreciate that we are competitive virtually EVERY season.
it doesnt mean we cant appreciate that we had one double digit win season in the first 4 years after elway retired, and two in a row since plummer arrived.

defensive line was far and away our biggest area of need, and we have SIX new lineman coming to camp (including pryce and ellis who barely played a year ago)

yes, we are completely spoiled, and hearing dipsh!ts like mike and sandy try to get everyone down may make good ratings but its irritating as hell to listen to.
a little optimism would be a good thing.
a little appreciation would be a REALLY good thing.

jake

[orange 4 life]

I agree. But there should be a sense of optimisum not dred,

ditto again.

[Odysseus]

It's funny how Denver has had Backtoback 10-6. They have added alot of players this year and are close to being an elite team but yet there is so much negativity surrounding the team. Spoiled F*$&#ing rotten is what we are.

Agreed.

[redrage]

Even as a Chiefs fan, I've always been somewhat of a cautious Trent Green fan. I like his toughness, doesn't seem to get too rattled, is pretty accurate and can produce some amazing games. I've never really been all out in favor of him mainly due to DV and Saunders NEVER, EVER putting blame on his shoulders when it clearly was. He gets a total free pass with the coaching staff (at least publicly) even when he has really terrible games. And while I admire his toughness and willingness to stand in the pocket to look for the big gain, he takes FAR too many unnecessary sacks that end up being drive killers, particulary last year.

Any KC fan with any sense of objectivity will recognize that Green was awful in the fourth quarter last season. This is in sharp contrast to the 2002 and 2003 season in which he was one of the best passers in the league in the fourth quarter. All that said he fits this team perfectly and I do think that the QB position (barring injury) will not be the reason KC doesn't advance to the playoffs and beyond this year.

Plummer, on the other hand, is a guy I've been waiting to explode in Denver (in a good way). He's always seemed to fit Shanahan's style perfectly (aside from some accuracy problems) and plays extremely well for stretches. The Broncos look down right scary good when Plummer is on. But in the back of everyone's mind (and everyone's here if they, too, are being objective) they know that he'll eventually start playing really dumb football. Is it his fault? Who knows. But if he ever puts together a 16 game season, Denver will be tough IMHO.

Not many teams will get far without good QB play and these two can play well enough not to be deterents to their teams. I do think, though that Green's performances are more consistent while Denver never knows which Jake they are going to get from Sunday to Sunday.

[TotallyScrewed]

I'm very optimistic for the Broncos season. I foresee good things from all their acquisitions, at least until the middle of training camp. :D I just think that it could be a year in which only the division winner makes it into the playoffs. It could be that tight a race.???

Who cares about Joe Williams, Irv or Sandy? They're pathetic and so are most of their callers.

My take on the plan is that IT has been working and that to expect it not to ebb and flow with constant adjustments is ...well...silly. Yes, they were looking to shed Trevor but when things changed to the point that it was better to keep him, then do it. They may have overpaid for Gold but he's a good weakside backer and I feel like DJ has the size and talent to play where ever they move him. The 'backing corp is better now than they've been in a long, long time.

Where I continue to see a problem is the O-line. I'm hoping that they get better as a group and that the rook is a keeper but ... that 2004 line had many moments when they couldn't pass protect or run block. They were man-handled, often. Jakes' escapability and Reuben's power running made something of nothing. Nothings changed really, except experience.

[Cito Pelon]

I understand the negativity as well. If you look into our team last year and team 7 yrs ago the difference is swagger confidence in guys making clutch plays late in games and red zone scoring. We definately lack the swagger right now.

Sometimes it looks like the "want to" isn't quite there. These guys maybe think it's easy to win, I don't know. I know I was shocked last year to hear Shanny say somewhere around game 12, "I don't think I've ever talked to the team about the playoffs." ?????????????

Swagger they have, they talk, talk, talk, talk. I guess what you were talking about was they don't back it up.

[Cito Pelon]

It's funny how Denver has had Backtoback 10-6. They have added alot of players this year and are close to being an elite team but yet there is so much negativity surrounding the team. Spoiled F*$&#ing rotten is what we are.

It's pretty easy to be negative. I can guarantee you I have rants galore lurking just below the surface. They're right there, bro, but I'm holding them back, since it will all be just water under the bridge if the team and the coaching staff over-achieve this year and next, and so on, and so on.

There's plenty of reasons for optimism, and it's going to be a tough season - the team doesn't have a soft schedule. So much the better to have some obstacles to oevercome.

Changing the subject a little, you notice how there's all this talk about parity, parity, parity? A lot of that has to do with realignment. There's no more of those super-soft schedules the lower-record teams used to get. Schedules are a lot more even across the board, so it's not surprising there's more teams packed around the .500 mark.

[bloodsunday]

It's funny how Denver has had Backtoback 10-6. They have added alot of players this year and are close to being an elite team but yet there is so much negativity surrounding the team.
I don't know what to think. At the end of the day all that matters is the scoreboard, not all the talk about how many plays or players we are away. Denver is not making the plays necessary to win. The question should not be whether or not we have added more or less talent, but whether we have more playmakers. If we have added (or developed) a player that can give us those 1 or 2 additional impact plays a game, then the team will be better. For example, Gerrard Warren. He is an NFL caliber player. He is that talented; it is very unlikely that he will go out there and embarass us (on the field), or even play any worse then a player we trotted out last season. But what really matters is whether he can push the middle of the pocked on 3 - 10 in driving snow on a game saving defensive stand against a worthless Oakland Raiders team. If he can't make that play, this team will likely be the same as it was last season. Same goes for every player that we either added or has developed with another year of experience (Plummer, Putz, Bell, Lelie, Watts, DJ).

So right now I say: we've added NFL caliber players as depth, but we need to see those players become impact players before we consider ourselves a better team.

Spoiled F*$&#ing rotten is what we are.
There is certainly an element of truth to this. However, there are other reasons. For example, the team publicly acknowledges that the Super Bowl is their goal every season. Of course we are going to expect the same if that's the goal they set forward. What's more, Shanny makes comments like we are "one or two plays away", or "we are one or two players away", indicating that we are failing if we don't achieve that level. Another thing that really sticks in my craw is that this team feels soft. They don't often show the mental toughness to hang in tight games. They also seem to lose their edge when the season gets rolling (we started 5 - 1, 5 - 1, and 6 -2 in the past 3 seasons).

[gunns]

...and we also have had one of the WORST defenses with respect to turnovers.
weve had one of the WORST special teams in average starting field position.
and we've been average in scoring defense.

...but dont let those facts get in your way. blame it on plummer. it isnt the smart thing, but it sure is easier.

This is very true and probably the reason Plummer is still high on Shanahan's list. But I do believe that Plummer won't get let off the hook this season if he throws 20 INT's again. There is no way anyone can say that did not affect the team last year. And enough of putting the blame for those INT's on other people. Not even half of those INT's were other players fault. More often than not if it bounces of a receivers hands it's because it was poorly thrown. I, for one, am more than willing to give Plummer another shot for the mere fact of what was posted by orange 4 life. I would like him to have the chance to prove he can do it. But he throws 20 INT's again, he needs to go.

[bloodsunday]

yes, the expectations ARE higher here, but that DOES NOT mean we cant appreciate that we are competitive virtually EVERY season.
it doesnt mean we cant appreciate that we had one double digit win season in the first 4 years after elway retired, and two in a row since plummer arrived.
This is the point to take away from all of this. I don't recommend people get caught up in what we could have been. Every team can make an excuse about injuries, a player or two, a player or two, etc... and they would have been better. The NFL is so competitive that the margin between winning and losing is small and thus excuses are magnified. The bottom line is that Denver is the only team in the AFC to be better than .500 every year since 2000. It is also that 18 of 32 teams have won a playoff game since our last victory. Every team has won the AFC West since we last did. So its a good news, bad news deal.

[Kaylore]

More often than not if it bounces of a receivers hands it's because it was poorly thrown. Actually if it touches the receiver's hands, they should catch it. ANY receiver in the NFl will tell you that. I agree with most of the rest of your post except this part, because you are in effect saying that Jake is the reason that our receivers didn't catch the ball when it would hit them square in the numbers, and that's completely untrue.

[bloodsunday]

Actually if it touches the receiver's hands, they should catch it. ANY receiver in the NFl will tell you that. I agree with most of the rest of your post except this part, because you are in effect saying that Jake is the reason that our receivers didn't catch the ball when it would hit them square in the numbers, and that's completely untrue.
Not every catch that hits a receiver's hand is catchable. Nonetheless, the point is valid. Jake got a bad rap in the San Diego loss last season, but the receivers didn't do him any favors. Once in a while he got a bad break on a timing play where the o-lineman didn't get the cut and the d-line tipped the ball as well.

[gunns]

Actually if it touches the receiver's hands, they should catch it. ANY receiver in the NFl will tell you that. I agree with most of the rest of your post except this part, because you are in effect saying that Jake is the reason that our receivers didn't catch the ball when it would hit them square in the numbers, and that's completely untrue.

I did not say square in the numbers. I said bounced off their hands. Generally when that happens they are not just standing there catching it. They are jumping for it, it's thrown behind them or it's thrown into coverage.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . Denver is not making the plays necessary to win. The question should not be whether or not we have added more or less talent, but whether we have more playmakers. If we have added (or developed) a player that can give us those 1 or 2 additional impact plays a game, then the team will be better. . . . . .


That's about the size of it, as well as the mentally tough aspect you mentioned, and the coaching-staff definitely has to get more out of the team than they have. The way I look at it, if Carolina can make the SB, and the Jets and Chargers can make the second-round, then Denver's coaching staff isn't doing as well as those team's coaching staff. Well hell, a rant broke through. Sorry.

[Spider]

well 1 aspect of the 1 or 2 players away, is more of a depth issue then anything else .... Role players have more to do with a team doing well then most stars , so when i say we are 1 or 2 players away , I am talking about role players ........

[orange 4 life]

I did not say square in the numbers. I said bounced off their hands. Generally when that happens they are not just standing there catching it. They are jumping for it, it's thrown behind them or it's thrown into coverage.

lets settle that.

here's the deal.
of the 20 int's, 11 were tipped balls.
of the nine that WERENT tipped, i remember two that werent on plummer at all. once was watts, and once was lelie, and they just ran the wrong route.
that leaves 7 that were pretty much on jake.

of the 11 tipped, i dont have exact numbers, but i remember a few.
a handful were tipped at the line. of those, i remember a few where i thought jake shouldve seen that he didnt have a line, and i saw a few where our guard just got blown off the ball.
of the ones tipped past the line, i remember the one to putz (blame on both), the one to carswell (hit him DEAD ON in the numbers. hit BOTH his hands), the one to rod (double coverage. more a bad playcall by jake than a bad throw).
i remember a few others where he threw the ball behind the receiver, and a couple where the defender tipped it to one of his own.

either way, this SHOULD NOT be about assigning blame for these picks.

quite simply, the point is that REGARDLESS of who's FAULT these picks were, we can probably all agree that its not very lucky.

i dont think its important to assign blame, and ive never said that none of them were plummers fault.

my point all along has been simple.
fact is, 11 of the 20 were tipped balls, and that is an inordinate number.
its a bit of bad luck i wouldnt expect to be repeated.

[Rock Chalk]

This is very true and probably the reason Plummer is still high on Shanahan's list. But I do believe that Plummer won't get let off the hook this season if he throws 20 INT's again. There is no way anyone can say that did not affect the team last year. And enough of putting the blame for those INT's on other people. Not even half of those INT's were other players fault. More often than not if it bounces of a receivers hands it's because it was poorly thrown. I, for one, am more than willing to give Plummer another shot for the mere fact of what was posted by orange 4 life. I would like him to have the chance to prove he can do it. But he throws 20 INT's again, he needs to go.

Id point out the faulty logic in this post, but I see two others already have. I'll just use it as an excuse to say "Hi gunns doll! How ya been?" ;D

[Atlas]

Plummer has to play better if Denver is goingto win the West. There is no other way to look at it.

[orange 4 life]

Plummer has to play better if Denver is goingto win the West. There is no other way to look at it.

not to get into the whole debate again, but there IS another way to look at it.

plummer wasnt what prevented this team from winning the west last year.
not even close.

it would be NICE if plummer plays better, but far from necessary.
he could play exactly the same and as long as he doesnt have 11 tipped ball picks again that would be a pretty amazing season.

its the special teams and defensive line that NEEDS to play better, and thats been the focus of the offseason.

[Ballhawk]

Plummer has to play better if Denver is goingto win the West. There is no other way to look at it.

I agree that the supporting talent on both sides are there. Plummer just needs to drive this machine. No other team in the AFC has as much talent as we do, not being a homer just believe that.

Some may disagree and I do not really want to argue this opinion:

Oakland may have more talent on O, but we still get the nod at TE and RB.
KC may have more talent on O (some very aged) but we get the nod at WR.
SD needs to show me more than one year but LT2 is top shelf RB.

On D we have more talent and if Sourdrunk can keep in line and ST upgrade, we may have the best all around STs this year too.

Overall I see a team that can average 28 pts a game and give up 16 per. This should produce many wins, if Plummer can manage the O prudantly.

[orange 4 life]

we also have a HUGE advantage at qb over oakland.

i think even most plummer detractors would agree with that.

on another note, i think plummer HAS managed the offense well.
for the umpteenth time, remember that a year ago at this time most media and fans alike said we'd be lucky to be top TWENTY in offense. most thought our defense would be the only thing to keep us competitive.

what happened?
well, we lost griffin, anderson, hearst, bell......we pretty much lost our entire backfield and had droughns as the starter, we were forced to throw more than we wanted, our defense was good but not anywhere near what many thought it would be (no qb pressure or turnovers), and we still finished top FIVE in offense.

sure, plummer had 20 int's (11 tipped balls), but rewatch the games and look at the whole picture.
he's not perfect, and he's not elway, but he's done an excellent job of LEADING and managing the offense since he arrived.

there's no reason to think he wont again, especially considering he'll have bell (and anderson healthy) in the backfield, and watts, lelie, and putz all a year more experienced.

jake

[Ballhawk]

To not expect Kerry to improve in Oakland would be foolish. He has shown the ability to play very well. Now that he has had a year in their system and gets Moss as a target his numbers will also improve.

Jake, Kerry, Trint are all about the same as far as impact goes. None have the ability to take a team on their shoulders, so I do not really give any of them anymore than a slight advantage. If forced to do so I would give Trint the nod for having the most time in the same system.

[orange 4 life]

i agree that none can carry a team, but i also think plummer is better than collins by leaps and bounds.

[bloodsunday]

I agree that the supporting talent on both sides are there. Plummer just needs to drive this machine. No other team in the AFC has as much talent as we do, not being a homer just believe that.
I don't know about the AFC as I haven't thought about it much, but I'd stack our team up against any in the West, that's for sure.

Overall I see a team that can average 28 pts a game and give up 16 per. This should produce many wins, if Plummer can manage the O prudantly.
That would have to be a minimum 11 - 5 team with a 12 pt spread! I think its feasible, but some things need to go our way (injuries and one or two key players).

That's #1,000 for me folks....

[bloodsunday]

we also have a HUGE advantage at qb over oakland. i think even most plummer detractors would agree with that.
I don't know. Collins is perfect for what they want to do. He is capable of having a big year. I'd prefer Plummer, but at the end of the day this might be closer than you'd think. I don't think many (other than Denver fans at least) would just grant you this point without a little argument.


sure, plummer had 20 int's (11 tipped balls), but rewatch the games and look at the whole picture. he's not perfect, and he's not elway, but he's done an excellent job of LEADING and managing the offense since he arrived.
Be careful here. Jake threw the 20 picks, end of story. Sure his receivers need to help him out more, but making excuses for him is dangerous. The INT against SD cost us that game and a shot at the Division, flat out. The INT going in to the endzone against Miami was nearly a back breaker as well. It's tough to just say well the receiver tipped the ball, it's not Jake's fault. Some of those were poor throws, other's may have been bad reads by Jake. It's not that easy, nor should it be, to give him a pass. Your point is well taken that his play may not have been as bad as some suggest, but he still needs to make better decisions at key times for us to win a division. One more thing... Jake is not a caretaker type QB. We brought him into make plays. He needs to do more of that.

[Ballhawk]

I meant AFC West btw, and I do not expect us to go out and win 28-16 every game. We will be held to 14 and less a few games I am sure.

Injuries will play a huge part as they always do, hopefully we have the depth to survive.

[Cito Pelon]

i agree that none can carry a team, but i also think plummer is better than collins by leaps and bounds.

Kerry Collins has won a few playoff games, including an NFC Championship. If he has protection, he's actually pretty darn good.

[Cito Pelon]

not to get into the whole debate again, but there IS another way to look at it.

plummer wasnt what prevented this team from winning the west last year.
not even close.

it would be NICE if plummer plays better, but far from necessary.
he could play exactly the same and as long as he doesnt have 11 tipped ball picks again that would be a pretty amazing season.

its the special teams and defensive line that NEEDS to play better, and thats been the focus of the offseason.

Don't forget the dysfunctional coaching staff. That was revamped also. Something I was happy to see. I hope they did enough house-cleaning.

[Odysseus]

Kerry Collins has won a few playoff games, including an NFC Championship. If he has protection, he's actually pretty darn good.

Kerry Collins is going into this year with a lot of confidence, an offensive line that is seasoned, and some real weapons on offense. Curry is pretty good. Moss terrifies Offensive Coordinators. Porter has guns like David Boston but he isn't insane. Pretty cool huh? I think we can beat them.

Kerry is a meat head just like Plummer. If you confuse him he'll cough it up. Once you get into Kerry's head he'll make bad decisions and then things unravel. Kerry Collins will beat you if you don't get after him. I think the Broncos can game plan him.

[Spider]

well it is safe to say everyone on the team has to do their job , and do it well , from Plummer on down to Kicker , We can harp on Plummer , Harp on lack of defencive turn overs , the key is to beat another team in 2 of the 3 areas . Offense , Defense , Special teams , Does little good to have Plummer doing his Job and Only Rod Smith doing his `.. and if we have the entire offense doing their job , doesnt do much good if we are losing the field position battle ........ And if the Defense is doing their Job and no one else is ,
you have a sleeper game like last year VS Jax .....
Looks to me Denver will rely on Defense and Field Position ala the Browncos and Sour whatever the hell is name is . If Plummer and the offense play good it is an added bonus ........

[Odysseus]

Plummer has to play better if Denver is goingto win the West. There is no other way to look at it.

The bottomline is the coach has to use Plummer like a wrench instead of a wrecking ball. He is very good at keeping things together but he's not going to tear down any defenses in the NFL.

[Cito Pelon]

Kerry Collins is going into this year with a lot of confidence, an offensive line that is seasoned, and some real weapons on offense. Curry is pretty good. Moss terrifies Offensive Coordinators. Porter has guns like David Boston but he isn't insane. Pretty cool huh? I think we can beat them.

Kerry is a meat head just like Plummer. If you confuse him he'll cough it up. Once you get into Kerry's head he'll make bad decisions and then things unravel. Kerry Collins will beat you if you don't get after him. I think the Broncos can game plan him.

Ya, this is probably the best O Collins has had to work in. It sure looks like they will present some problems to the D. Oak is not going to be easy to handle at all. That's fine, it will be interesting to see how the team responds to that challenge, as well as the other challenges out of division on the sched.

[Cito Pelon]

The bottomline is the coach has to use Plummer like a wrench instead of a wrecking ball. He is very good at keeping things together but he's not going to tear down any defenses in the NFL.

Gonna be interesting to me to see if Plummer added any bulk. He needed about 8-10 lbs of muscle in the upper body. Maybe that's too much, but he looked way too much last year like Joe Montana in his latter years - frail.

Soory, but Jake is an excellent open-field runner, that has to be a part of his game for the next 2-3 years, and he needs to muscle up a little in the shoulders and chest, or learn to land a little better.

Don't bust my chops too bad about that, but Plummer didn't bust any of those long, good runs last year I was used to seeing from him, and I know damn well that it was because of the shoulder injury he suffered the year before. An injury I think was preventable through better conditioning, and learning how to roll when you hit the ground. It's not all that difficult.

[Mediator12]

lets settle that.

here's the deal.
of the 20 int's, 11 were tipped balls.
of the nine that WERENT tipped, i remember two that werent on plummer at all. once was watts, and once was lelie, and they just ran the wrong route.
that leaves 7 that were pretty much on jake.

of the 11 tipped, i dont have exact numbers, but i remember a few.
a handful were tipped at the line. of those, i remember a few where i thought jake shouldve seen that he didnt have a line, and i saw a few where our guard just got blown off the ball.
of the ones tipped past the line, i remember the one to putz (blame on both), the one to carswell (hit him DEAD ON in the numbers. hit BOTH his hands), the one to rod (double coverage. more a bad playcall by jake than a bad throw).
i remember a few others where he threw the ball behind the receiver, and a couple where the defender tipped it to one of his own.

either way, this SHOULD NOT be about assigning blame for these picks.

quite simply, the point is that REGARDLESS of who's FAULT these picks were, we can probably all agree that its not very lucky.

i dont think its important to assign blame, and ive never said that none of them were plummers fault.

my point all along has been simple.
fact is, 11 of the 20 were tipped balls, and that is an inordinate number.
its a bit of bad luck i wouldnt expect to be repeated.

Of the 11 tipped, 4 were by DL, 2 By LB, 2 were by CB's, and a whole 3 were by WR's. That number is way too high for second level players. I think Jake had 18 more that were tipped and not INT's. 29 total tipped balls is way high and leads to plenty of INT opportunities. Realistically, he could have had a LOT more.

Of the two were the communication was off, see who was geting their ass chewed out on the sidelines, it was Jake not Watts and Lelie. Jake made poor reads and the receiver was open both times behind those zones. Please, do not confuse where the ball went, with Jake making the proper reads.

SD: The Putz tipped ball glanced his outstretched right hand as he spun around when the ball was thrown too far outside. Carswell's dropped pass should have never been thrown as Godfrey hits him before the ball was there and causes the carom (Should have been PI, but still never should have been thrown from ten yards away) The fade to Rod was a horrible throw (Fade routes need to be outside the WR's shoulder to the pylon, not over the shoulder to the post!) and an even worse decision. And the margin of Victory was the crap decision to throw inside on their own 20 with 1:30 left in the half. Another gift red zone opportunity. Jake left 10 points off the board in that game with Redzone TO's and gave SD prime field position that led to 17 of their twenty points.

As for the drops, this has been discussed ad nauseum with everyone keeping their own opinions. For every "Team Official Drop" last year, there were several poorly thrown balls that were caught. Yes, Watts, Lelie, Putz, and even Rod had a few "Team official Drops". That is part of the game. Every WR drops the ball throughout a season. Get over it!

[orange 4 life]

youre dead wrong about the communication plays.

go watch again.
those two plays watts and lelie ran the wrong route, and they were timing patterns.

again, ASSIGNING BLAME FOR THE TIPPED BALLS HAS NEVER BEEN MY POINT.

quite simply, having 11 tipped ball int's is a high number.
a high number i wouldnt expect to see again.
it REALLY is that simple.

[orange 4 life]

I SAID IT WASNT ABOUT ASSIGNING BLAME.

I DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO "GET OVER" SINCE I ONLY MENTIONED WATTS DROP AGAINST OAKLANS SINCE IT COST THE GAME.

does typing in caps get through?

there's nothing to "get over" dude.
drops happen. intereceptions happen. bad passes happen, and good catches happen.
wow. sh!t happens.
regardless, 11 tipped balls is an inordinately high number.
anything beyond that isnt relevant to my point.

almost forgot.
if you blame jake for that ball thrown to carswell, youre on an island ALL by yourself.
that was a perfectly thrown ball, and it hit carswell in BOTH hands.
blaming that one on jake is just plain wacko...

..but again, MY POINT WASNT TO ASSIGN THE BLAME.

get it?

[orange 4 life]

i mean seriously.

did you just completely ignore the fact that the core of my point was that it WASNT important to assign the blame?

you make an entire post breaking down each play (erroneously i might add) as if that was the point, when ALL ALONG i said the blame is distributed all over (including on jake) and that itsnt the point.

[DB-Freak]

i mean seriously.

did you just completely ignore the fact that the core of my point was that it WASNT important to assign the blame?

you make an entire post breaking down each play (erroneously i might add) as if that was the point, when ALL ALONG i said the blame is distributed all over (including on jake) and that itsnt the point.

No he was counter arguing your bias in terms of things that went wrong. You only talk about how unlucky plummer was.

Even if you added that it wasnt assigned to blame someone, it still is very biased.

Not only that do you know all the numbers on tipped balls on QBs from each team?

Your play analysis does not have any power over mediator's and Mediator is a very analytical guy.

[orange 4 life]

No he was counter arguing your bias in terms of things that went wrong. You only talk about how unlucky plummer was.

Even if you added that it wasnt assigned to blame someone, it still is very biased.

Not only that do you know all the numbers on tipped balls on QBs from each team?

Your play analysis does not have any power over mediator's and Mediator is a very analytical guy.

good God this is frustrating.

okay, another angle.

FORGET PLUMMER!!

for one second anyway. indulge me.

lets get REALLY REALLY REALLY simple here.
short simple statements.
im NOT being an ass here (not trying too). i just think we all get way too caught up in the semantics, and in this case, the simple point is lost.

1) the DENVER BRONCOS as a TEAM had too many turnovers on offense. too many interceptions.
2) of those interceptions, over half of them came from tipped balls
3) that is a very high number, and WAY off of the nfl norm.
4) that translates to a little bad luck for the TEAM.
5) its unlikely that an anomaly like that will happen two years in a row.

agree?

see, ITS NOT ABOUT PLUMMER.
hey, im a huge plummer fan, but im a bronco fan first.
this is about THE TEAM.
who CAUSED those balls to be tipped (for the purpose of this argument) makes NO DIFFERENCE.
for one reason or another they WERE tipped, and they WERE intercepted.
however you spin it (and realistically the blame is shared), having that many tipped ball int's is the exception not the rule.

jake

[DB-Freak]

good God this is frustrating.

okay, another angle.

FORGET PLUMMER!!

for one second anyway. indulge me.

lets get REALLY REALLY REALLY simple here.
short simple statements.
im NOT being an ass here (not trying too). i just think we all get way too caught up in the semantics, and in this case, the simple point is lost.

1) the DENVER BRONCOS as a TEAM had too many turnovers on offense. too many interceptions.
2) of those interceptions, over half of them came from tipped balls
3) that is a very high number, and WAY off of the nfl norm.
4) that translates to a little bad luck for the TEAM.
5) its unlikely that an anomaly like that will happen two years in a row.

agree?

see, ITS NOT ABOUT PLUMMER.
hey, im a huge plummer fan, but im a bronco fan first.
this is about THE TEAM.
who CAUSED those balls to be tipped (for the purpose of this argument) makes NO DIFFERENCE.
for one reason or another they WERE tipped, and they WERE intercepted.
however you spin it (and realistically the blame is shared), having that many tipped ball int's is the exception not the rule.

jake

I got your point a long time ago.

Just saying that your post comes off biased and it does to a lot of people.

[orange 4 life]

I got your point a long time ago.

Just saying that your post comes off biased and it does to a lot of people.

fantastic.

i think you just look for something to argue with me about.
youve been good at it the last few days, and now you go out of your way to ignore the point.

no, i dont think you DO get the point, since the POINT is that personal bias or assignment of blame isnt the issue.

[orange 4 life]

..but im sure you'll find something else to argue about.

[DB-Freak]

..but im sure you'll find something else to argue about.
Naw, I'm way too lazy to argue with you much now and during this time period.

But I can predict that there will a hell of alot when the season begins and about halfway through the season. Then I'll get lazy again....

The point is the best is saved for the season.

[orange 4 life]

Naw, I'm way too lazy to argue with you much now and during this time period.

But I can predict that there will a hell of alot when the season begins and about halfway through the season. Then I'll get lazy again....

The point is the best is saved for the season.

wow.
youre a bronco fan right?

i sure hope that during the season we're too busy celebrating to be arguing.

agreed?

[DB-Freak]

wow.
youre a bronco fan right?

i sure hope that during the season we're too busy celebrating to be arguing.

agreed?

Yes I'm a purebred Bronco Fan. Not a watermock.

And yes I agree.

[Garcia Bronco]

bump

[Atlas]

We are a few players away. Unfortunately those players happen to be Walter Payton, Johnny Unitas and Deacon Jones.

LOL

[Atlas]

We were as bad as anybody in the NFL in the red zone last year (except maybe Jacksonville) and we did nothing to address that.


Oh Slap your going to hate this bump, along with a couple of others.

[Atlas]

The logic is

I have very little faith that our pass rush will improve. I still don’t believe Trevor is fully healed nor will he ever be, when he starts getting hit, I expect his back to twinge up again.

I have no faith in the Browns that came upon us.

I have lost some faith in Jake and his high INT total.

I have lost faith in our interior line, the ability to push back in the red zone.

I have lost faith in our secondary, Champ is great, but I always thought Walls was over-rated. Middlebust is always hurt.

And lastly, I have lost faith in Mike Shanahan to really address the true problems, w/o letting his hubris get in the way of true growth in our football team.

WRONG!!

[Atlas]

I said more than once that 8-8 seems most likely, but your schtick is to keep hammering away at the 6-10 comment. Since that seems to keep you occupied enough not to start up stupid whiney threads like this one, I feel like I'm taking one for the Mane.

As I said repeatedly, I think the only way we avoid a .500 record is if Tatum (or Mo) become a top five back this season.

I know your pie in the sky mentality won't allow you to believe it, but all used car dealers are out to screw buyers (especially young ones), its just a matter of how badly.

OOO

[Atlas]

This is a 11-5 team next year...and a playoff win.

....and then the 3rd pick in the draft...

Nice job Delany!!!

[Atlas]

I will say what I always say 12-4 ......
as for the negativity , I have seen it worse 1 year ....1992 ....... Talk was Elway should retire or Be traded , he was Bringing the team down , Elway was played out , and those of that Said Elway has Plenty left , were stupid and didnt know what we was talking about ......
as for the Redzone , We have been the worst cause of the TE Position , but that is only my opinion .... I see our lack of Pass rush was our Problem , Shanny did what he felt is right here , we will see if he was .......
I think Plummer will do great this year .. I am still worried about the TE , but Maybe Putz is ready ....... 12-4

Nice job Spider!!

[Atlas]

I personally don't blame guys for saying 6-10 or 7-9, because that's where we'll be if some of these risky moves don't pan out. Say the Cleveland DL still is a bust, or DJ can't perform up to his potential at SLB, then what? What if our CB's that we drafted don't live up to expectations in their first year and we get toasted in the air by Oakland, or Kansas City, or we make the playoffs and get toasted by Indianapolis again? Then what?

Blind homers are always nice to have, but don't criticize other people for not feeling the same way, these are all risky moves built on hope, and the reality is to take these moves with a voice of reason and caution.

thanks for bumping this thread? It's great!!

[Atlas]

**** you.

6-10 isnt realistic, its ****ing moronic.

saying we're not improved over a year ago isnt realistic, its ****ing stupid.

if you have concerns and doubts thats fine, but dont attack people who actually believe that our moves will work out.
i didnt say i expected all our linemen to be productive.
i said if TWO of the four brownies succeed we're ahead. if EITHER pryce or ellis returns healthy.
if either of the THREE of anderson, dayne, clarett can make a difference in the redzone.

what a joke you are.
youre disgustingly negative and justify it by calling it "realism".

there's nothing unrealistic about a prediction of 11-5 and winning the division...

...though your could make a pretty strong case that 6-10 or even 8-8 is very unrealistic.

jake

Orange 4 life got it!!

[sirhcyennek81]

Whoa...the past haunts...and its only from this summer...be scared, haters...j/k

[Atlas]

I liked that post the first time when SoCal wrote it... yesterday... nearly word for word. Odd.

Still, I disagree. I think we have the strength and will go 11-5 to 13-3

Way to go Rev

[Dukes]

This thread is gunna get ugly Ha!

[sirhcyennek81]

I know i did not say anything negative about the plan. I supported the plan. Keep the inquisition away. ;)