Jake Plummer gets his wish, Denver goes offense in the draft

[watermock]

:kiddingme

Has anyone really asked this question? One week ago it seems he was sure that Denver would go offense after seemingly adressing it's needs with the Fab 4 and Gold, re-signing Walls and tons of secondary on the roster, yet alone Predator and Pierce.

Instead, he gets Mo Clarett and a questionable guard that will probably keep him rolling out till retirement.

What are you thinking if your Jake Plummer, and don't tell me he's smart enough to throw up a smoke screen for Teflonahan.

[Drek]

I'd imagine they were going offense in round one until they got a great price to trade out. At that point the FO clearly decided that this draft would be spent entirely overhauling special teams. Makes sense since rookies typically have an easier time stepping in and performing on special teams than offense or defense, so we should see pretty quick results in that sense from this class.

Myers was clearly a choice for versatility. He can play any OL position from what I've heard, though is most suited for OG. He also has been a long snapper however, which should help us out a lot having a legitimate OL as long snapper, not a TE like we currently use with Mike Leach.

Jake doesn't look to be getting any help this year. Maybe we'll grab a veteran posession WR from the cut pile, and Anthony Clement seems like a very possible OL addition, but outside of that I think he's just going ot have to play better with what he has.

[Needa Pass Rush]

............

Jake doesn't look to be getting any help this year. Maybe we'll grab a veteran posession WR from the cut pile, and Anthony Clement seems like a very possible OL addition, but outside of that I think he's just going ot have to play better with what he has.

Exactly, the off-season is just getting started. ;)

[bloodsunday]

Great point. Just shows you why Plummer is the QB and not the GM.

I like what Denver is doing in that if they are going to win, they will have to win on defense. They have countered the moves by Oakland and already dominant KC by fortifying the defense. Not a bad strategy. I still say this season rides on the defensive line, and more specifically the "Browncos". If they play up to potential, then our defense has a chance to be special. We have great talent at LB and DB, all we need is a solid, every down pass rush. IMO.

[eddie mac]

Jake will get his offensive players next year and probably one that will unseat him in 2007.

[Old Dude]

It will be worth it for our offense if they don't have to start every blasted drive inside their own 20.

[bronco militia]

why anyone would think Jake Plummer has a say so in the Draft is beyond me...

[HEAV]

Shanny is once again putting Jake in a bad position. He's done a good job of that the last few years. Not just with jake, but Brian, Sund and now Bobby Turner and Patterson. If it goes wrong it's their fault, not his.

[bloodsunday]

It will be worth it for our offense if they don't have to start every blasted drive inside their own 20.
Have you ever evaluated the percentage of drives that Denver caps off with a TD after starting inside opponent's territory? I haven't seen comparative numbers against the rest of the league, but I would guess we are pretty poor. Of course that could just be a function of overall redzone futility. I'm just saying that starting field position is second fiddle to redzone scoring, IMO.

[DBroncos4life]

If anyone here thinks that having a good return team doesn't help the O at all they need to have their heads checked. Instead of 70 to 80 yard drives (90 after a punt) we will get much better field position and have less yards to score points.

[bloodsunday]

Shanny is once again putting Jake in a bad position. He's done a good job of that the last few years. Not just with jake, but Brian, Sund and now Bobby Turner and Patterson. If it goes wrong it's their fault, not his.
I could see that argument, but I don't buy it. Shanny has become the face of the franchise and he takes heat for everything that happens. Even though Sundquist is the GM, no one even believes that he has any more power than a figure head. Individually those people do have responsibility, but the media and most fans wind up going straight to Shanny.

[Beantown Bronco]

Jake will get his offensive help from Watts having a year of experience under his belt. Smith, Lelie, Watts, Putz, a solid OLine and all those RBs. How many more weapons does Jake really need, especially from this draft?

[Meck77]

:
What are you thinking if your Jake Plummer, .

I would bet the thought......."If Rod or Lelie get hurt we are screwed" crossed his mind once or twice.

[Mile High Shack]

I could see that argument, but I don't buy it. Shanny has become the face of the franchise and he takes heat for everything that happens. Even though Sundquist is the GM, no one even believes that he has any more power than a figure head. Individually those people do have responsibility, but the media and most fans wind up going straight to Shanny.
There isn’t anything the Broncos do that Shanny doesn’t approve first, so yeah, it’s ultimately his fault when things fail due to poor player evaluation or free agency pick ups that fail

[cabronco]

I was hoping we would bring in a vet receiver, because if Rod Smith goes down for any length of time we're porked. I hope he stays healthy all season, but if he gets hurt, who's our go-to guy Lelie on a fly pattern ? Dont think so. Watts hasn't proven himself yet..It would be all up to you Putz ! :kiddingme

[bananasplit_13]

You know, picking up Clarett may help Plummer more than you think. I don't think he's going to be a "home-run" back like Bell seems to be or Portis was, in that he's not likely to take many in from 20+ yards. But if he can pound away, it will open things up a *lot* more for Plummer.

[Haroldthebarrel]

hmmm if Clarrett pans out I think he can very well be a good/final piece to the redzone problems.

I dont think I've ever seen a rb churning out tough yards like him. sort of like Fred Beasley power in a true runningback.

However that is a big IF.

[Rascal]

Any good vet WR's available out there?

We really need to sign one. I keep having this nightmare of Rod getting injured.

[DarkHorse30]

Jake will get his offensive help from Watts having a year of experience under his belt. Smith, Lelie, Watts, Putz, a solid OLine and all those RBs. How many more weapons does Jake really need, especially from this draft?

Good call. Plummer put up more yards and as many TDs as Elway did in his best year. All without a topshelf O-line, shannon sharpe, or a pass-catching RB or FB. Even in the SB years, Elway tossed 14 picks. Consider how many times Plummer hit a rook or Putz or Carswell dead in the hands and the guy dropped it, or bobbled it for a pick. Did I read 11 times out of 20 picks? That said, would adding an expensive free-agent WR solve the problem? Name a FA WR that has come to Denver and been successful in the last 10 years. Eddie Mac is about it.....and consider all the talent that was around him. "Gee, maybe we need another 5 yards here...toss sweep to TD".

Denver's decision to focus on special teams and cornerback depth in a draft without a lot of high-end talent, while banking a number one for next year looks like a pretty good move because it addresses the needs of a good all-around team. Would Plummer rather have a Vincent Jackson....who will not be productive in his first year in Denver's offense (because no rook WR ever has been ) or would Plummer rather start on the 35 instead of his 17? Tough call? Not really.

[chanesaw]

Help on Offense for Jake this year:
- Watts will be better, we might see a little more of Nate Jackson as well
- new TE coach will make Putzier better, also will help new signee Stephen Alexander
- Carlisle will be an upgrade over Neil, lets face it, Neil isn't what he used to be
- our OTs will be more experienced
- and most importantly, Bell and Johnson will be awesome in the backfield!!!

[bendog]

Good call. Plummer put up more yards and as many TDs as Elway did in his best year. All without a topshelf O-line, shannon sharpe, or a pass-catching RB or FB. Even in the SB years, Elway tossed 14 picks. Consider how many times Plummer hit a rook or Putz or Carswell dead in the hands and the guy dropped it, or bobbled it for a pick. Did I read 11 times out of 20 picks? That said, would adding an expensive free-agent WR solve the problem? Name a FA WR that has come to Denver and been successful in the last 10 years. Eddie Mac is about it.....and consider all the talent that was around him. "Gee, maybe we need another 5 yards here...toss sweep to TD".

Denver's decision to focus on special teams and cornerback depth in a draft without a lot of high-end talent, while banking a number one for next year looks like a pretty good move because it addresses the needs of a good all-around team. Would Plummer rather have a Vincent Jackson....who will not be productive in his first year in Denver's offense (because no rook WR ever has been ) or would Plummer rather start on the 35 instead of his 17? Tough call? Not really.

screwed the pooch in SD and against Jokeland, though. and indy in the playoffs. He may be ok, though. Last year was a transition year on offense, but he has to show he can win a game with the five step and making reads. Not yet, but maybe. He did play at a higher level in 04 than 03.

[Borks147]

another WR is that kid from Texas we got last year...Bj Johnson...is he still around? he was placed on the IR wasnt he

[Taco John]

Shanny is once again putting Jake in a bad position. He's done a good job of that the last few years. Not just with jake, but Brian, Sund and now Bobby Turner and Patterson. If it goes wrong it's their fault, not his.



Whatever... This is a load of grade C baloney...

Two years ago, all the talk was about what a great situation Jake is in now that he's in Denver, and how he'll be able to propell himself to the top of the league once he got here. NOW the talk is about what a bad position that Jake is in right now. Such garbage!

Jake is in a great situation. Could it be better? Sure. It could also be a hundred times worse. The fact is, Jake is making the same mistakes that he was making in Arizona. If he "limits his mistakes and plays up to his ability" this team will go far.

This team is only going to go as far as Jake takes it.

[Borks147]

Whatever... This is a load of grade C baloney...

Two years ago, all the talk was about what a great situation Jake is in now that he's in Denver, and how he'll be able to propell himself to the top of the league once he got here. NOW the talk is about what a bad position that Jake is in right now. Such garbage!

Jake is in a great situation. Could it be better? Sure. It could also be a hundred times worse. The fact is, Jake is making the same mistakes that he was making in Arizona. If he "limits his mistakes and plays up to his ability" this team will go far.

This team is only going to go as far as Jake takes it.

taco without avatars and not looking down it looks like your sporting chief colors in your sig....its freaking me out seriously

[Taco John]

USC baby! That's our future quarterback right there...

[HEAV]

USC baby! That's our future quarterback right there...


Your disdain for Jake has been well documented this off season TJ. Once again the fans are putting everything on his shoulders. Fact is he wasn't playing defensive end or corner back in the playoff game. The fact is this team will only go as far as the revamped Brownie front four takes them. Without a serious pass rush it's the same story just a different season.

Mocks post was about the statements Jake made a week ago. Statements he made from the info he was given from Shanny. Much the same as Sund did on the radio time and time again. Only to end up looking like a chump.

I can understand many Broncos fans love and feeling for the two Super Bowls. But the shine has worn off those trophies and the last 7 years have been mediocre at best.

As far as Matt, he has zero passion for the pro game. He wants to stay in college for all the wrong reasons. Still his talent will draw him to the top of the draft. For Denver to get him A: The skins will have to really be terrible. B: Denver falls on their face. C: Denver has to trade both picks to get the first overall pick.

Just face it what ever happens Jake is here to stay. It would have been wise for Shanny to surround him with more play makers and an upgrade O line. Instead he drops three straight on corners and them rolls the dice on Clarett just to make Bobby Turner happy.


So I guess if the pass rush fails or the corners get burnt it's still going to be Jake's fault.

[TheDave]

I think jake is just fine with the talent he has. Rod Smith (enough said), Ashley (NFL leader in YPC), Watts in his second year, Tatum Bell should put up 1500 or so, Jeb hopefully earns some of his contract this year... I think Jake has the tools to compete. If he can simply cut down on the 2-3 brainfarts he has every game our offens should be much better.

AND.... we should have better field position with our new return guy

[Crushaholic]

another WR is that kid from Texas we got last year...Bj Johnson...is he still around? he was placed on the IR wasnt he

I believe BJ is still on the team. It's time for him to show what he can do. Maybe (hopefully this isn't a big stretch) he can develop into the kind of possession receiver that Smith is.

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

It will be worth it for our offense if they don't have to start every blasted drive inside their own 20.

That's giving last year's ST some credit, I swore they were always starting inside their own 10.

[BRONCCRUSHFAN]

USC baby! That's our future quarterback right there...
That's what the Fade said when they signed Marinovich ;), or Cinncinatti with Akili, or The Colts with where do I start before Manning, or the Bears with Cade, and a half a dozen college studs that flopped after being picked in the first round.

[Play2win]

- Carlisle will be an upgrade over Neil
No matter what anybody say, this is a FACT!!!

[SoCalBronco]

No matter what anybody say, this is a FACT!!!

no way.

[Play2win]

no way.
Last year our running game excelled once we got (loser) out of there and put in somebody that could actually block effectively. IMHO

[SoCalBronco]

Last year our running game excelled once we got (loser) out of there and put in somebody that could actually block effectively. IMHO

i know we all got tired of Neil getting called for holding alot but he was so much better than Cooper in the run blocking department. I dont remember who it was but some poster said that when they went to a game last season every time cooper came off the field, the coach was screaming at him for a **** up.

[DB-Freak]

Cooper Carlisle over Dan Neil.............

Sad thing indeed.

:pity:

[Play2win]

i know we all got tired of Neil getting called for holding alot but he was so much better than Cooper in the run blocking department. I dont remember who it was but some poster said that when they went to a game last season every time cooper came off the field, the coach was screaming at him for a **** up.

He used to be, but last year, we ran better behind Cooper than we did behind neil...

[Rascal]

i know we all got tired of Neil getting called for holding alot but he was so much better than Cooper in the run blocking department. I dont remember who it was but some poster said that when they went to a game last season every time cooper came off the field, the coach was screaming at him for a **** up.

That would be me in the Tennessee game and that was one of the line's better performances.

[Taco John]

Your disdain for Jake has been well documented this off season TJ. Once again the fans are putting everything on his shoulders. Fact is he wasn't playing defensive end or corner back in the playoff game. The fact is this team will only go as far as the revamped Brownie front four takes them. Without a serious pass rush it's the same story just a different season.


Whoah whoah whoah whoah... One Jake excuse at a time. A minute ago, it was that Jake didn't have enough talent around him on offense. Now we're blaming Jake's problems on the defensive line.

I am well aware what position Jake Plummer played last year. I know he wasn't playing defensive end or corner back in the playoff game. He was barely playing quarterback, for that matter. Our defense will finish in the top ten again this upcoming season. We'll still get scored on. A lot. This is a scoring league now that they've changed the rules. The question is, will Jake be able to "limit mistakes and play within himself" this season, and take advantage of the ever-loosening of the NFL's defenses?



Just face it what ever happens Jake is here to stay. It would have been wise for Shanny to surround him with more play makers and an upgrade O line. Instead he drops three straight on corners and them rolls the dice on Clarett just to make Bobby Turner happy.

Jake has my support in that I'm rooting for him to win. I wish all the best for the guy, but I'm not going to homer him up any longer. He's not going to get any better than where he is now. He is what he is. He'll make some exciting plays and make you feel great about him one week, and the next he'll throw a floater on the goal line and completely blow the division game and any hopes you had of homefield advantage.

You're right... Jake is here to stay... for the next two seasons, he is our quarterback. But mark my words and hold me accountable: By this time next season we will have an heir apparent to Jake.



So I guess if the pass rush fails or the corners get burnt it's still going to be Jake's fault.

Make every excuse you want. Two can play that game. I don't remember any defensive ends throwing left handed interceptions with one foot in their own endzone... see how easy that was?

[baja]

I would bet the thought......."If Rod or Lelie get hurt we are screwed" crossed his mind once or twice.

When we see the roster on opening week I'll bet this all becomes a moot point

[fontaine]

Shanny is once again putting Jake in a bad position. He's done a good job of that the last few years. Not just with jake, but Brian, Sund and now Bobby Turner and Patterson. If it goes wrong it's their fault, not his.

I can't agree with this.

Year in year out all Denver QBs can count on a solid Running game, with Rod Smith and decent TEs.

That's a lot more than some QBs ever get.

In a way I'm glad Denver isn't babying Plummer like Detroit has been with Harrington. Year after year they've drafted/signed players for WR/RB/OL all to cater for a QB that hasn't stepped up.

Believe me, Plummer has all the weapons there to have a great season. Three deep at WR, two pass catching TE, three deep at RB, with an OL that should be decent.

At some point Plummer HAS to step up (like he did his first year here) and take charge of those weapons and use them effectively.

IF he can't then we've got two first round picks next year and the deadskins looking to tank it in 2005 with a rookie QB.

All I'm saying is that everyone on this board expects, no demands, guys like Bell step up, Lelie to step up, Watts to get better, Putz to get better etc.

Hell, some loonies (including myself) expect bust of busts Ron Dayne to step up.

Then why can't we expect Plummer to step up too? He, more than anyone else on offense, needs to step up. And if he can't then he needs to get out of the way period. I'd be willing to cut/waive/trade a hundred Plummers before seeing my team mired in mediocrity.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

That would be me in the Tennessee game and that was one of the line's better performances.

That would also be the Miami game, too. Play2Win - see if you can find some game tape. You won't see many runs behind Carlisle. You will see a very immobile passive blocker who never fires out on his man and allows his man to get his hands in the air and knock down passes. Neil was hurt all last year and not very effective, but he is a much better player than Carlisle.

[Rascal]

That would also be the Miami game, too. Play2Win - see if you can find some game tape. You won't see many runs behind Carlisle. You will see a very immobile passive blocker who never fires out on his man and allows his man to get his hands in the air and knock down passes. Neil was hurt all last year and not very effective, but he is a much better player than Carlisle.

True.

I just remember every time they came off the field, even when they scored Rick Dennison would be yelling and screaming at Cooper about something. I took some pictures of him yelling to and also got some of their photos they were looking at. I got one in particular that Dennison marked up showing what Carlisle was doing wrong...his angles were horrible (at least that play).

That's what you get to watch when you are on the 50 yard line on the first row behind the Bronco's bench :) That was an awesome experience.

[Rascal]

I think the reason we don't expect Jake to step up is because most of us realize that we have been tainted by having John Elway. Unless somebody performs up to his caliber people aren't going to be happy, and some of us (me for example) don't criticize him to much because I know I won't be happy unless Elway II appears and that isn't fair to Jake or anybody else. We already ran Griese out, who was average for a QB, and I just don't want to keep running QB's out in the hope of finding Elway II.

[bloodsunday]

hmmm if Clarrett pans out I think he can very well be a good/final piece to the redzone problems.
I thought Tatum was our best back in the redzone last year. He is so explosive that if he sees a crease, he's gonna score. He clearly doesn't have the power that Clarett will likely bring to the table though. For as many yards as he pounded out, Droughns was horrid in the redzone.

[Mile High Shack]

I thought Tatum was our best back in the redzone last year. He is so explosive that if he sees a crease, he's gonna score. He clearly doesn't have the power that Clarett will likely bring to the table though. For as many yards as he pounded out, Droughns was horrid in the redzone.
He is and he is a tougher runner than people give him credit for

I’d say playing through a 3rd degree separated shoulder proved that.

[Rascal]

pussy

[bloodsunday]

Help on Offense for Jake this year:
- Watts will be better, we might see a little more of Nate Jackson as well
- new TE coach will make Putzier better, also will help new signee Stephen Alexander
- Carlisle will be an upgrade over Neil, lets face it, Neil isn't what he used to be
- our OTs will be more experienced
- and most importantly, Bell and Johnson will be awesome in the backfield!!!
This is clearly the optimists view. The only thing I am not confident about in this post is Carlisle. I think the Broncos want to find a better guard, but its probably too much to expect this Meyers kid to step in. I'd still like to get a big bodied WR/TE like V Jackson, but I respect the fact that Denver didn't want to force the pick.

[Rascal]

According to Bill Williamson of the post, insert joke here, Clement is backing up Foster.

It also looks like we are still going after Chad Brown and are pursuing Az-Zahir Hakim.

[Mile High Shack]

According to Bill Williamson of the post, insert joke here, Clement is backing up Foster.

It also looks like we are still going after Chad Brown and are pursuing Az-Zahir Hakim.
wtf are we going after that dude for? That would be a move Shack does not support, Shanny better recognize!!!

[Atlas]

:kiddingme

Has anyone really asked this question? One week ago it seems he was sure that Denver would go offense after seemingly adressing it's needs with the Fab 4 and Gold, re-signing Walls and tons of secondary on the roster, yet alone Predator and Pierce.

Instead, he gets Mo Clarett and a questionable guard that will probably keep him rolling out till retirement.

What are you thinking if your Jake Plummer, and don't tell me he's smart enough to throw up a smoke screen for Teflonahan.


That's a good point Mock. At least we know Plummer isn't running the team. I feel that Shanny has so much confidence in his system that he can go with more mediocre players and still produce an effective offense. Plus he knows defense wins championships. Although this draft is more of a special teams draft that's for sure. Denver's special teams will be greatly improved. I look for Denver to go for a WR with one of their first round picks next year.

[bloodsunday]

Good call. Plummer put up more yards and as many TDs as Elway did in his best year. All without a topshelf O-line, shannon sharpe, or a pass-catching RB or FB. Even in the SB years, Elway tossed 14 picks. Consider how many times Plummer hit a rook or Putz or Carswell dead in the hands and the guy dropped it, or bobbled it for a pick. Did I read 11 times out of 20 picks?
Let's be careful here. I like the optimism, but Plummer clearly needs to make fewer mistakes. Sure there were times when Plummer's balls got tipped and picked, but that happens to everyone. The fact is he needs to make better decisions. The audible to throw that fade route in San Diego was awful. You love his competitiveness and desire to make that play to win, but he needs to tone it down a bit when the game is on the line like that and take the safe play.

That said, would adding an expensive free-agent WR solve the problem? Name a FA WR that has come to Denver and been successful in the last 10 years. Eddie Mac is about it.....and consider all the talent that was around him. "Gee, maybe we need another 5 yards here...toss sweep to TD".
I've been saying for a while that our running game, over all, has not been as effective since TD retired. Portis was a homerun back. He would run -1, 2, 20. But those -1 and 2 yarders kill you because you end up in 2 and 11. I loved Portis, but I just didn't think he was as effective in short yardage and redzone as TD. Bell has explosiveness, but he also has the size to be a more effective short yardage back, so we'll see. I got a very strong vibe that Shanny and Turner view Clarett as the second coming of TD, let's hope they are correct.

Denver's decision to focus on special teams and cornerback depth in a draft without a lot of high-end talent, while banking a number one for next year looks like a pretty good move because it addresses the needs of a good all-around team. Would Plummer rather have a Vincent Jackson....who will not be productive in his first year in Denver's offense (because no rook WR ever has been ) or would Plummer rather start on the 35 instead of his 17? Tough call? Not really.
I just don't get why they bring Williams in as a special teamer and not Miller who was a more polished corner and returner. Then we add two more corners (and Paymah was not highly rated at all) and a punter? There is a lot of speculation that it is all about special teams and this too much to invest in special teams in one draft, IMO. Our UDFA saved our draft class, IMO.

The other thing is that starting field position is less crucial than redzone effectiveness. Denver can move the ball between the 20's. The problem that we have is finishing drives. We left too many points on the field last year by not punching the ball in the endzone when we got a precious possession starting on the opponents side of the field. Having good field position is gravy, but we need to score when we get down there, regardless of how we get down there.

[Atlas]

Whoah whoah whoah whoah... One Jake excuse at a time. A minute ago, it was that Jake didn't have enough talent around him on offense. Now we're blaming Jake's problems on the defensive line.

I am well aware what position Jake Plummer played last year. I know he wasn't playing defensive end or corner back in the playoff game. He was barely playing quarterback, for that matter. Our defense will finish in the top ten again this upcoming season. We'll still get scored on. A lot. This is a scoring league now that they've changed the rules. The question is, will Jake be able to "limit mistakes and play within himself" this season, and take advantage of the ever-loosening of the NFL's defenses?

Jake has my support in that I'm rooting for him to win. I wish all the best for the guy, but I'm not going to homer him up any longer. He's not going to get any better than where he is now. He is what he is. He'll make some exciting plays and make you feel great about him one week, and the next he'll throw a floater on the goal line and completely blow the division game and any hopes you had of homefield advantage.

You're right... Jake is here to stay... for the next two seasons, he is our quarterback. But mark my words and hold me accountable: By this time next season we will have an heir apparent to Jake.


Make every excuse you want. Two can play that game. I don't remember any defensive ends throwing left handed interceptions with one foot in their own endzone... see how easy that was?


I agree TJ the defensive line didn't throw 20 ints last year.

[bloodsunday]

He used to be, but last year, we ran better behind Cooper than we did behind neil...
Even if that's true, it doesn't make coop any good. We need some upgrades at this position.

[bloodsunday]

That would be me in the Tennessee game and that was one of the line's better performances.
Tennesse was dog-butt, who cares? That game was a gimme no matter who was blocking. We need a run game against San Diego, Baltimore, Philly, and New England. That's a bit more challenging than a beat down Tennessee team that wanted to quit.

Notice I didn't mention the new and improved KC defense in there ;D

[bloodsunday]

Jake has my support in that I'm rooting for him to win. I wish all the best for the guy, but I'm not going to homer him up any longer. He's not going to get any better than where he is now. He is what he is. He'll make some exciting plays and make you feel great about him one week, and the next he'll throw a floater on the goal line and completely blow the division game and any hopes you had of homefield advantage.
That about sums it up folks.

Truth is Denver has been converting back to a defensive team for a while now and if that succeeds we should be relying on Jake even less. As long as Jake limits the mistakes, we are okay. But the days of hoping for Jake to be the next franchise QB in Denver are over. The guy has been in the league far too long to expect much more.

[Rascal]

Tennesse was dog-butt, who cares? That game was a gimme no matter who was blocking. We need a run game against San Diego, Baltimore, Philly, and New England. That's a bit more challenging than a beat down Tennessee team that wanted to quit.

Notice I didn't mention the new and improved KC defense in there ;D

He asked a question about a poster who said when they attended a game the coaches were yelling at Carlisle the entire game. That would have been me as I was there. I was just answering his question.

[bloodsunday]

He asked a question about a poster who said when they attended a game the coaches were yelling at Carlisle the entire game. That would have been me as I was there. I was just answering his question.
That's cool, I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth or take things out of context. I am just trying to squelch any momentum to the idea that Carlisle is the next coming of Habib or Stink.

[bendog]

Even if that's true, it doesn't make coop any good. We need some upgrades at this position.
Rookies don't start on Den olines. Just a fact of life.

[Rascal]

That's cool, I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth or take things out of context. I am just trying to squelch any momentum to the idea that Carlisle is the next coming of Habib or Stink.

You are preaching to choir then.

[Mile High Shack]

You are preaching to choir then.
I can vouch for that, I have stuck up for Cooper and rascal told me I was insane :)

[Rascal]

I can vouch for that, I have stuck up for Cooper and rascal told me I was insane :)

LOL

[Lidderer]

Whoah whoah whoah whoah... One Jake excuse at a time. A minute ago, it was that Jake didn't have enough talent around him on offense. Now we're blaming Jake's problems on the defensive line.

I am well aware what position Jake Plummer played last year. I know he wasn't playing defensive end or corner back in the playoff game.






Tell me somewhat pointed out the irony here

[fontaine]

I just don't get why they bring Williams in as a special teamer and not Miller who was a more polished corner and returner. Then we add two more corners (and Paymah was not highly rated at all) and a punter? There is a lot of speculation that it is all about special teams and this too much to invest in special teams in one draft, IMO. Our UDFA saved our draft class, IMO.


Good question. I dunno if Miller was a more polished ST guy but it seems that Williams was faster and a guy who they seemed to like better than Miller who had questions about his laziness and that he was arrested days before the draft.

Was it the right decision? We won't know until after the 2005 season but they MUST believe Williams could play nickel CB against the smaller slot WRs because Justin Miller can. If they picked Williams only as a ST player then it was a wasted pick IMO considering Miller was still on the board.

I guess I'm coming around to the idea of drafting 3 CBs slowly. Maybe finally, now that the team has spent 5 draft picks in the two years on the damn CB position we won't have to worry about it for a while. But god help us if these 2005 CB draft picks go the way all our previous CB picks have gone since Shanahan came in.

The other thing is that starting field position is less crucial than redzone effectiveness. Denver can move the ball between the 20's. The problem that we have is finishing drives. We left too many points on the field last year by not punching the ball in the endzone when we got a precious possession starting on the opponents side of the field. Having good field position is gravy, but we need to score when we get down there, regardless of how we get down there.

I think Rueben Droughns had a lot to do with that. He wasn't a RB that could take one step and explode out of a cut. Instead he was a tough runner and I think our OL better suits someone like Tatum who could take the ball speed it into the red zone.

[bloodsunday]

Was it the right decision? We won't know until after the 2005 season but they MUST believe Williams could play nickel CB against the smaller slot WRs because Justin Miller can. If they picked Williams only as a ST player then it was a wasted pick IMO considering Miller was still on the board.
I agree if its ST only, then it was wasted considering it was so high and there were a TON of good players still on the board. "Reports" -- for what's the worth -- are that Denver is really only interested in his ST abilities. However, I read a ton of stuff about his toughness and competitiveness. One scout said he was the best corner at the Senior Bowl. Perhaps he will suprise us with his ability to play corner. Let's hope that's the case.

I guess I'm coming around to the idea of drafting 3 CBs slowly. Maybe finally, now that the team has spent 5 draft picks in the two years on the damn CB position we won't have to worry about it for a while. But god help us if these 2005 CB draft picks go the way all our previous CB picks have gone since Shanahan came in.
I can sum up my feeling on this with one word: balance. Our personnel decisions the past two offseasons have been very oriented toward d-line and corner, which fit immediate needs. These selections also calm our fears from the last loss and addition of Moss. However, down the road that is going to result in other needs positions (OG, WR). That's assuming that these moves we made work out and we don't continue to poor resources into them. I just feel that we are knee-jerk reacting to immediate needs and past horrors and setting ourselves up for more offseasons like this to come. Next year we may get the entire Jacksonville offensive line.

The other thing I don't like is that I think these guys were all drafted for their stats -- speed and size -- and not necessarily their ability to play. We didn't draft Perkins, instead we get a CB in Paymah that got a 54 (out of 100) in his grade from Scouts, Inc. Hell, Browner got an 88 and he is projected to move positions in the NFL. (Glad we got him by the way). If we had drafted guys that produced on the field instead of guys that had good measurables, I might feel better about it. We force these picks because we want guys that matchup with Moss and Indy, IMO. Hope I'm wrong.

[bendog]

Considering Den has drafted an olineman, and two wrs in the top two rounds in the last three years, I don't really see your pt. And, they draft an olineman in the middle rounds EVERY year.

[bloodsunday]

Considering Den has drafted an olineman, and two wrs in the top two rounds in the last three years, I don't really see your pt. And, they draft an olineman in the middle rounds EVERY year.
That's a valid point of view. But if Nalen retires, Carlisle busts and Lepsis leaves via FA, then we are screwed. I am not sold on any of the guys on the o-line behind the starters. As a general thought, I just don't think our "system" is effective any more. Maybe its because the caliber of RB has declined, maybe our o-line philosophy is flawed, but either way the redzone woes are an indication that something's broken. If they Broncos come to that conclusion this offseason, they will do something drastic like they did with the "Browncos". Point is, the draft is a chance to forecast future needs for your team and load up with talent (best guy on the board). It's generally not a good strategy to draft for need only.

I am not sold on the WRs that we have behind Rod and Lelie either, but that's just me. Lelie still has some work to do still and Rod is long in the tooth. This could be a need position very soon, IMO.

[Mediator12]

I agree if its ST only, then it was wasted considering it was so high and there were a TON of good players still on the board. "Reports" -- for what's the worth -- are that Denver is really only interested in his ST abilities. However, I read a ton of stuff about his toughness and competitiveness. One scout said he was the best corner at the Senior Bowl. Perhaps he will suprise us with his ability to play corner. Let's hope that's the case.


I can sum up my feeling on this with one word: balance. Our personnel decisions the past two offseasons have been very oriented toward d-line and corner, which fit immediate needs. These selections also calm our fears from the last loss and addition of Moss. However, down the road that is going to result in other needs positions (OG, WR). That's assuming that these moves we made work out and we don't continue to poor resources into them. I just feel that we are knee-jerk reacting to immediate needs and past horrors and setting ourselves up for more offseasons like this to come. Next year we may get the entire Jacksonville offensive line.

The other thing I don't like is that I think these guys were all drafted for their stats -- speed and size -- and not necessarily their ability to play. We didn't draft Perkins, instead we get a CB in Paymah that got a 54 (out of 100) in his grade from Scouts, Inc. Hell, Browner got an 88 and he is projected to move positions in the NFL. (Glad we got him by the way). If we had drafted guys that produced on the field instead of guys that had good measurables, I might feel better about it. We force these picks because we want guys that matchup with Moss and Indy, IMO. Hope I'm wrong.

The "reports" that Williams is only here due to his return ability are wrong. The only thing about Perkins is that he lacks Press Coverage strength and is better suited to Cover two and Zone coverage than Man to man. I thought highly that Denver would draft speed in the third and forgot how poorly Perkins ran at the combine. I totally missed Williams return abilities in doing predraft work and discounted him for his size and therefore did not evaluate him at all.

Like many here I fell into the Triangle Numbers trap and did not look at the overall coverage abilities of the CB's in some cases. Williams was the highest Rated CB from the Senior Bowl WEEK in coverage. Not height and weight, but coverage. Add in the fact that he is a great and Natural kick returner and you have a good value.

As far as the draft history of CB's and recent failures goes, I believe one thing. Things change every offseason. Coaches and FO personnel do not have the luxury to take past history into account in determining the offseason needs of the team. That is done solely by grading the performance of players and evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of the team. Every team makes mistakes in drafting and FA. Some more than others. The top level teams address the needs accurately every year. Does that make the missed picks hurt. YES! But it can not stop them from trying to get better where they need it.

I called this year "The Switch" because the FO has approached the offseason very differently than in the past. They have gone after talented retreads with Low Risk/high reward capability instead of solid older vets. They have drafted for ST's and Depth at their need positions, NOT THE BOARDS PERCEIVED needs. The UDFA's are potential guys with a legitimate purpose to team needs. Picking up Clement at OL from the Cards is a great deal that is done from the Pro Personnel dept anticipating the cut and acting quickly to get him in, evaluated, and signed.

Finally, the draft grades of Scouts, Inc are just that. Sure, Browner had an 88 and 255 picks later he went undrafted. All 32 teams passed on him throughout the draft. Somebody missed that evaluation pretty bad obviously. That does not mean I think Browner is a bad player, far from it, just someone missed pretty bad on where people would take him and his real value. Conversely, not many of the guys had any Info on Paymah at all except his Triangle Numbers and Combine workouts. I watched him workout at the combine and Do not remember him at all. I was watching elsewhere, like I am pretty sure they were.

Does that make Paymah a bad player in Denver's evaluation? I doubt it. I am sure they see something in his natural style that fits their scheme. I am still waiting to get an evaluation of him from someone with first hand knowledge of his play before I question his selection. What little I have seen of him he is a press man type CB with Good Triangle Numbers. He rarely plays off the line and Denver needs some better Press cover CB's.

[bendog]

Well using no 1's on guards is not a wise allocation of picks. I'm not going to debate who may flop or who is good, but there are only so many picks each year, and no one can say Den hasn't addressed oline and wr with high picks. Shanny has blown some no 1s on corners, so I can see criticism there. We've also brought in some serious head case high priced FAs.

As for the oline, there's a basic problem that Hamilton is playing out of position. But, nalen's still a top center, so we're going to have a small LG. I don't think Lepsis is going anywhere, otherwise he wouldn't keep restructuring. And, I am sort of looking forward to seeing Foster and Carlisle with starting experience from last year and a full camp together as the starters. Den ran right with Neil and Lepsis, and I think the odds are that the new guys will work out fine.

[Rascal]

Well using no 1's on guards is not a wise allocation of picks. I'm not going to debate who may flop or who is good, but there are only so many picks each year, and no one can say Den hasn't addressed oline and wr with high picks. Shanny has blown some no 1s on corners, so I can see criticism there. We've also brought in some serious head case high priced FAs.

As for the oline, there's a basic problem that Hamilton is playing out of position. But, nalen's still a top center, so we're going to have a small LG. I don't think Lepsis is going anywhere, otherwise he wouldn't keep restructuring. And, I am sort of looking forward to seeing Foster and Carlisle with starting experience from last year and a full camp together as the starters. Den ran right with Neil and Lepsis, and I think the odds are that the new guys will work out fine.

good post but I wouldn't be so hyped up about Carlisle. There is a reason why he only started with Neil was unable to walk without crutches. He isn't that good or good at all actually. I think he is the weak link on our line and it needs to be fixed.

A possible scenario that I've mentioned and others have as well is moving Lepsis to guard. With the addition of Clement he could play RT and Foster could move to LT. Clement has problems with faster players though and with Merriman being in SD he could cause him problems. I think our tackles are relatively set, assuming the decide to pick up on Lepsis's option next year (which will be costly remember). If they decide not to pick up Lepsis they need to draft or pick up a tackle in FA.

[bloodsunday]

The "reports" that Williams is only here due to his return ability are wrong...Like many here I fell into the Triangle Numbers trap and did not look at the overall coverage abilities of the CB's in some cases. Williams was the highest Rated CB from the Senior Bowl WEEK in coverage. Not height and weight, but coverage. Add in the fact that he is a great and Natural kick returner and you have a good value.
The could be and I don't think these reports are the bible, I'm just saying that's the perception. I have read positive things about Darrent and believe he could be a good player, maybe our best pick IMO.

As far as the draft history of CB's and recent failures goes, I believe one thing. Things change every offseason. Coaches and FO personnel do not have the luxury to take past history into account in determining the offseason needs of the team.
Well their needs to be some balance to the situation. New England needed linebackers and Bellichick even admitted as much, but they didn't force a pick on a LB. Their are multiple ways to solve a problem (Aaron Glenn is available). Projecting past failure on future success is not fair, but there does tend to be a trend. Denver had more needs than just CB.

I called this year "The Switch" because the FO has approached the offseason very differently than in the past. They have gone after talented retreads with Low Risk/high reward capability instead of solid older vets.
That could be just a function of limited resources this offseason. Had they moved Pryce early in the offseason it may have looked very different. I agree that they did a great job under the circumnstance, but next year's plan could be different.

They have drafted for ST's and Depth at their need positions, NOT THE BOARDS PERCEIVED needs.
That's fair, but its also fair to question their evaluations. Besides, they drafted for more than depth at DB. They drafted to overhaul the whole position. Either they screwed up last year or they screwed up this year, because all these guys aren't going to make the roster.

Finally, the draft grades of Scouts, Inc are just that.
Totally fair. My point was more just that these picks aren't givens. There are some opinions that Paymah is not going to struggle. He has been labeled as stiff and having difficulty in locating the ball in the air.

Sure, Browner had an 88 and 255 picks later he went undrafted. All 32 teams passed on him throughout the draft. Somebody missed that evaluation pretty bad obviously.
Well I think it shows how flawed the system can be sometimes. NFL teams these days draft a lot on potential and combine numbers, not necessarily production on the field. I think Browner suffered, at least in part, because his combine stats were not ideal because of his position.

Does that make Paymah a bad player in Denver's evaluation? I doubt it. I am sure they see something in his natural style that fits their scheme.
Well Denver's history is to draft on potential and athletic ability, not necessarily production (Deltha, Willie). Regardless of scheme those two players (and our FA this year) are an example that our personnel decisions in general are largely based on potential. Maybe he works out, maybe he doesn't. That's the nature of things and I get that.

Ultimately all this will figured out in camp -- based on which of these 6 guys don't make the roster -- and in years to come. I am just speculating that these picks are far from guarantees and that we are not being balanced in our personnel decisions. The Denver staff obviously feels differently and they get paid big money to make these decisions, so who am I to talk?

[Odysseus]

The other thing is that starting field position is less crucial than redzone effectiveness. Denver can move the ball between the 20's. The problem that we have is finishing drives. We left too many points on the field last year by not punching the ball in the endzone when we got a precious possession starting on the opponents side of the field. Having good field position is gravy, but we need to score when we get down there, regardless of how we get down there.

I have been screaming this since Frerotte was our next Elway.

[HEAV]

Make every excuse you want. Two can play that game. I don't remember any defensive ends throwing left handed interceptions with one foot in their own endzone... see how easy that was?

It's Ironic that you say I'm making excuses for Jake when you were making every excuse for Brian you could find a few years ago. You even wanted to keep him as a backup!

I'm nottrying to make excuse's for Jake. Just saying he is part of a team and when one part of the team can't hold up it's end Jake shouldn't get the blame. I know Jake takes chances, but after watching Greise play scared for 4 season, seeing Jake play with heart and soul I can look the other way when he tries to make a play. That's not saying the left hand move wasn't dumb. Just saying he was trying to make a play. No one seemed to say anything when Tom Brady did it, not to mention Gannon, Farve, even Trint has done it.

Here's a question. Let's say Jake has a year with reduce mistakes (INT) and this team misses of flop's in the playoff's (again) say the D-line moves don't work and the corners, once again, get exposed. Is it still Jake's fault?

[HEAV]

I have been screaming this since Frerotte was our next Elway.


Scoring in the redzone is about being able to run the ball. That's about attitude. Once Denver proves it can run in the redzone teams will bite more for the play-action-pass.

Seems like this year Mike Anderson or ...gulp....Ron Dayne will be asked to do the running near the goal line.

[Odysseus]

Scoring in the redzone is about being able to run the ball. That's about attitude. Once Denver proves it can run in the redzone teams will bite more for the play-action-pass.

Seems like this year Mike Anderson or ...gulp....Ron Dayne will be asked to do the running near the goal line.

The Broncos picked up some late OL help. I think they get it. I like all the UDFA pickups.

I am not anticipating Clarett to be anything for quite some time. Bell needs to pound the ball but having a change up attack could be fun. I hope that Dayne is more than just a used to be player.

I think whoever goes to see that this year is in for one heck of a treat.

[Taco John]

It's Ironic that you say I'm making excuses for Jake when you were making every excuse for Brian you could find a few years ago. You even wanted to keep him as a backup!

You can bring up Brian all you want. It isn't going to keep Jake from throwing interceptions. And if you want to go down that path, it can be clearly demonstrated that Jake has a *MUCH* better cast to work with than Brian did. But what is the point of *that* debate?

I find it odd that anyone who criticized Brian isn't jumping up and down about the things that Jake isn't doing right... Plus maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember Brian ever leading the league in interceptions.


I'm nottrying to make excuse's for Jake. Just saying he is part of a team and when one part of the team can't hold up it's end Jake shouldn't get the blame. I know Jake takes chances, but after watching Greise play scared for 4 season, seeing Jake play with heart and soul I can look the other way when he tries to make a play. That's not saying the left hand move wasn't dumb. Just saying he was trying to make a play. No one seemed to say anything when Tom Brady did it, not to mention Gannon, Farve, even Trint has done it.

I get that Jake is a likable guy, and that he's got fire. I won't argue that. He's a very likable guy. It's nice to see his passion. I have no problem with Jake as a team guy. I have a problem with Jake as a consistent quarterback.


Here's a question. Let's say Jake has a year with reduce mistakes (INT) and this team misses of flop's in the playoff's (again) say the D-line moves don't work and the corners, once again, get exposed. Is it still Jake's fault?

Is what still Jake's fault? I don't understand this tantrum that Jake apologists throw, as if anyone is blaming all of the team's problems on Jake. It's so childish. Nobody is blaming the team's problems on Jake. They are blaming Jake's problems on Jake. And there are plenty of them. He's inaccurate which causes a lot of tipped balls, which causes a lot of interceptions. It's been a problem he's had throughout his entire career. In Arizona, people shrugged and blamed the receivers. In Denver some people are TRYING to do the same, but I think prevalent wisdom is that Jake is just Jake, and that comes along with him. He makes poor decisions when the pressure is high. Left handed passes from the endzone... Sideline floaters that cost us division championship games. Horribly overthrown balls that turn into interceptions during playoff games.

Your question is faulty. Nobody is blaming "it all" on Jake. What people (like myself) are doing is realizing Jake's limitations. They're out there bright as day for anyone who wants to look at them. Some people don't want to face up to them, and want to remain to see Jake as a developing player who might turn into the next respected name in NFL quarterbacking. I don't see it. I see him as a Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien or Kurt Warner. He might be able to pull it together and keep it together long enough if *everything* is going right around him, but the next year you might never hear his name except on the bloopers reel.

He's an edge of your seat kind of quarterback. It's fun to see him win... Hell, it's damned exciting to see him win... It's agonizing to see him lose. Completely and utterly agonizing, and even worse, it's demoralizing.

I'm glad we have him as a caretaker, but I'll be happy when we find someone with a steadier hand...

[watermock]

Who can ever forget the cast Griese had to throw to when we went 5 wide.

I sure can. It seems years ago.

We had things like Chris Cole and Billy Miller spread out with Rod Smith hobbling around on two broken legs. Portis hadn't been drafted yet, and we didn't have a great running game that year.

Griese would constantly turtle under pressure and looked terrible. The Oakland game ran him out of Denver.

Ah, the sweet memories....

[Taco John]

People want to complain about not having any red zone threats, and then whine to me about being harder on Plummer than I was on Brian? Ha!

I welcome my status as a pariah on the Brian Griese issue. Still, to this day, I think it would have been a different story if we hadn't destroyed his confidence by starting our back-up center as a left tackle. That's the perils of the "always re-tooling, never re-building" philosophy. Sometimes you just have to go with whatever you've got in the tool box. But people shouldn't complain to me about being inconsistent on Jake and Brian, when it's abundantly clear that Jake has more to work with than Brian could have ever dreamed (post-new-contract).

I get it... Brian was gutless and all of that... He didn't start out that way though. It got beat into him.

[HEAV]

I'm glad we have him as a caretaker, but I'll be happy when we find someone with a steadier hand...


My statement of (Blaming Jake) goes back to the thread you started after the season and your photo of Jake as the boulder sinking this team.

My point is many, including you TJ have stated "This season is on Plummer's shoulders". You make that statement and it sounds like Jake needs to be perfect!

As far as talent. Brian had TD, Rod, Sharpe and Eddie in their prime! Hell Brian was handed a Super Bowl team! The only freaking change was at QB!

TD was ruined by tryign to make a tackle on a Greise Int. Eddie was done in on a floater by Brian. Even with them out Denver managed to give Brian a running game and Rod was Rod. The line looked bad thanks to Brian holding onto it for too long and his lack of mobilty. Also maybe if Brian wasn't an alcoholic he may have become a better QB in Denver. He was a robot with no heart and no ability to create a play when the plan broke down so did Brian.

It's the mobilty of Jake that makes the current line look good. But when Jake's not under center this line is average at pass protection.

You want more point in the redzone. Tell Shanny to stop the cute stuff and run the damn ball. Screw the zone blocking and lay a helmet on a helmet and move people.

Since we all know Jakes weakness then wouldn't it be better to build on his strentgh? At the same time not give him the option to change plays, like the play you talk about vs the Chargers, that way he's less likely to put himself and the team in tough spots.

If Coach would put a real D-line out there, and stop the re-tooling/patch work of retreads and past beens, maybe the defense would be in the top 10 in sacks and turnovers. Because being top 10 in total defense hasn't ment crap the past few years. Trading away a scoring threat (Portis) for a shut down corner, only to have the NFL make the rules set that a shutdown corner is non-existint was a back fire.

Point of Mocks thread was and still is Jake was told, like many others, something that was to take place, yet in the end he looks like the guy with egg on his face. This offseason Sund. and Jake have come out in the media and said "Coach say's this" Only to have coach has a change of mind and then the fans are like "WTF".

This entire off season. From the Big surprise!,the 3-4 to 4-3, to Trev's release,to deciding to trade/sign the Browns line, to leaning on letting both Putz and Cooper go then bringing them back, his chase of Garcia, to drafting offense (Clarett). Mike as grown really flaky this year.


My admiration for Jake is well known. I don't hide or excuse all of his errors, but still it's a team game. Watts, Jeb, Bell all drop TD this past year. Ash was here one game gon the next. The Defense blew a 14 point lead vs the Raiders. Every prime time game, excluding the home opener, Bailey was more chump then champ. The leading sacker of the team left for the second straight year in a row!

So to say it's all on Jakes shoulder's is crazy. Jake needs to play better. But so does the defense and the receivers and backs. Hell even coach needs to prepare this team better and game plan better.