Why Draft 3 CB'sand get another. Here's Why!

[Mediator12]

We now have five CB's who run 4.3 or better. Bailey, Alexander, Williams, Paymah, and Foxworth. We now also have six CB's 6'0 and Over in Bailey, Middlebrooks, Walls, Leseuer, Browner, and Paymah. Of those taller guys both Browner and Leseuer will probably project to FS. Hopefully we can trade Sam Brandon NOW FINALLY to a team that needs an experienced FS (Hey, I can still pray right?).

Bailey is the man on one side and Walls is the one to unseat on the other. Walls is also coming off of two surgeries last season and in a contract year. The real position up for grabs is Nickleback. This is usually a quicker and faster CB rather than a taller guy here. Herndon was 5'10 on a good day and this is where he excelled last year. He covered the slot in the nickle and Roc covered the outside because Kelly was better at the Nickle coverage than outside. This is where I see Darrent Williams being extremely effective. His quickness and suddenness to the ball are his strength's. He may never be a pure #2 CB, but in this pass happy league where over 50% of the defensive snaps are from the nickle he could excel in the slot.

Middlebrooks has been injured and may have to miss games due to league suspension for the Domestic Violence incident (Talk about being a dumbass!). Shoate was injured last year during the season and tried to tough it out since the rest of the CB core was dropping like flies. Alexander was a UDFA due to his legal issues at Washington. He may still have issues outstanding with that case DURING THIS SEASON. Leseuer will probably switch to safety where he was projected to be anyway.

So lets take a little recap of the possibility of drafting 3 and obtaining another CB this offseason. It is a definite need for depth at a position made that much more thin by not renting Herndon for another year. There is no Guarantee that any Backup CB from this team last year will NOT miss some time due to Injuries, Legal issues, or Position switch.

On the surface, it was extremely frustrating to watch them do this during the draft because no one here foresaw the need at that time. OG, WR, DL and other positions were another perceived need for this team. Obviously, the OG's of Clabo, Sewell, and PJ Alexander are good enough to back up Carlisle or compete in the mind of the staff and They must have graded better in practice last year than anyone here believed.

WR is an interesting need in that everyone still wants a McCaffrey Clone for a possession WR. I was all aboard the Vincent Jackson express like many here. However, since Eddie hung up the cleats, the Broncos have changed their third down Packages to compensate. We all KNOW Jake is not the most accurate QB around and the Third down packages have been designed to accomodate Jake's Strength's and not the WR's. Let's hope they are more successful in executing these next year.

DL, well we already have too many as it is. Coyer really prefers teaching Veteran DL his system as evidenced by the trend of picking up middle level players here and making them more than just Functional. Now, if injuries do not decimate the talented guys brought in, which is very possible, he will finally have some talent to work with as well. It would have been nice to pick up a young guy in the draft but not much was left at 56 except Hawthorne who did not pass the Character and Hard working test.

It took a little while for all of the Chaos and Confusion to clear about the reasons for these draft picks and Acquisitions. I certainly did not foresee any of this going down in this manner. Now that the smoke is starting to clear, I can at least see the logic behind the perceived Madness.

[Mile High Shack]

When you put it like that…..it makes some sense…”some” sense mind you.

I just keeping looking at the pats and realize Dline pressure makes CBs in today’s NFL. Anyway……I hope at least 2/3 of them turn out to be players in the league.

I do like the Williams pick…..as long as his attitude gets better

[Needa Pass Rush]

Actually, my sources tell me that Champ is going to be a full time WR.

[bombquixote]

"you must spread some reputation around before giving to mediator12 again."

[Mr. Trout]

I would think this is a good move if we can put eight corners on the field at the same time. We would have a damn good flag football team.

[Darkhawk24]

This is a great post. I really enjoyed it!

[Taco John]

The Draft Has Started (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=25426)

[SoCalBronco]

great post Med!

[Mediator12]

Needed to find the reasoning and Calm down until Rix was Officially out of the picture!

[labronx]

Needed to find the reasoning and Calm down until Rix was Officially out of the picture!


Was either Rix or Jason White drafted?

[labronx]

Actually, my sources tell me that Champ is going to be a full time WR.

your kidding right?

Please tell me you are?

[bloodsunday]

We now have five CB's who run 4.3 or better. Bailey, Alexander, Williams, Paymah, and Foxworth. We now also have six CB's 6'0 and Over in Bailey, Middlebrooks, Walls, Leseuer, Browner, and Paymah. Of those taller guys both Browner and Leseuer will probably project to FS. Hopefully we can trade Sam Brandon NOW FINALLY to a team that needs an experienced FS (Hey, I can still pray right?).
Mediator, I think you and I see a lot things in the same level-headed manner, but this doesn't mean squat. These are just statistics. Nothing matters except what these guys do on the field. At least two of three players we selected at CB were reaches (according to projection) and we have spent far too many picks on this position in recent drafts. When does the realization that defensive back play is highly correlated to d-line play sink in? Maybe the guys we have back there (plus one pick and maybe UDFA) are good enough.

Of the 4 teams in the final 4 last year only Philly had a more talented defensive backfield then us, IMO. The difference is they all put immense pressure on QBs and force them into mistakes. Anybody every see Brady more rattled then the begginning of that Pittsburgh/NE game last season (regular)?

I just can't justify 70 million to Bailey, a 1st round tender to Walls, and 6 picks in two years on one position. That is excluding recent first round picks like O'Neal and Middlebrooks. Clearly the formula here is screwy, whether it be poor d-lineman, poor coaching, or poor scouting.

[SoCalBronco]

Needed to find the reasoning and Calm down until Rix was Officially out of the picture!

Hey Med, he was undrafted but i was unaware that he signed wtih anyone. Your not out of the woods yet! I hope we give him a chance.

[CBF1]

I did not look very hard, But is Timmy Chang still out there?

[BlitzingDog]

I think Brandon Browner makes a better SS than FS.

[Mediator12]

Mediator, I think you and I see a lot things in the same level-headed manner, but this doesn't mean squat. These are just statistics. Nothing matters except what these guys do on the field. At least two of three players we selected at CB were reaches (according to projection) and we have spent far too many picks on this position in recent drafts. When does the realization that defensive back play is highly correlated to d-line play sink in? Maybe the guys we have back there (plus one pick and maybe UDFA) are good enough.

Of the 4 teams in the final 4 last year only Philly had a more talented defensive backfield then us, IMO. The difference is they all put immense pressure on QBs and force them into mistakes. Anybody every see Brady more rattled then the begginning of that Pittsburgh/NE game last season (regular)?

I just can't justify 70 million to Bailey, a 1st round tender to Walls, and 6 picks in two years on one position. That is excluding recent first round picks like O'Neal and Middlebrooks. Clearly the formula here is screwy, whether it be poor d-lineman, poor coaching, or poor scouting.

Always glad to hear your reasoning BloodSunday. However, read the reasons why depth was of the utmost concern. Every single guy in the fold Last year, Minus Champ, has issues outside of being able to play football whether Legal, Injuries, or better suited elsewhere. The last two seasons Injury has decimated the depth to the point where Peyton has earned his playoff Bones against us.

Realistically, we were the last team in the NFL with the opportunity to draft a player. What DL player was worth it there besides Hawthorne who I assure you was NEVER going to be picked by Denver. Miller also got the Red light from the beginning or he would have been selected there at 56.

[Mediator12]

Hey Med, he was undrafted but i was unaware that he signed wtih anyone. Your not out of the woods yet! I hope we give him a chance.

Signing the kid from Colorado school of mines makes me think he is out of the picture! Chad Friehauf??? MUCH BETTER THAN RIX!!!!!!!!!

[epicSocialism4tw]

I like the tone of this thread. Nice retort.

I think that many of the prognosticators on this board had studied Denver's needs and assumed naturally that the draft would be used to adress those needs. Well, new needs have surfaced recently. It is obvious that Shanny and co. decided to come out of the draft with speed and man-to-man abilities on the corners. They used what they had in picks to address those needs.

The reasons for the picks are fairly obvious. Two division rivals have talented offenses including one who recently acquired the best reciever in football. The Raiders will have an all-out arial attack.

The Chiefs' passing game is secondary to their run game, but it helps to have as much of an advantage as you can when they run the ball so well.

Not to mention the fact that the secondary was roasted again by the Colts in the playoffs.

All in all with Clarett and the Guard from Miami included with the corners, I think that this draft has excellent potential to fill some needs this season as well as in the future. You have to remember to incude the fleecing of the 'Skins in the equation when you evaluate this one as well.

[bloodsunday]

Always glad to hear your reasoning BloodSunday. However, read the reasons why depth was of the utmost concern. Every single guy in the fold Last year, Minus Champ, has issues outside of being able to play football whether Legal, Injuries, or better suited elsewhere. The last two seasons Injury has decimated the depth to the point where Peyton has earned his playoff Bones against us.

Realistically, we were the last team in the NFL with the opportunity to draft a player. What DL player was worth it there besides Hawthorne who I assure you was NEVER going to be picked by Denver. Miller also got the Red light from the beginning or he would have been selected there at 56.
Mediator, I get where you are coming from. But you could rationalize (injuries, character, fit for system, pending FA) that way about nearly every position on the field, including OL and WR. Shoate, LeSuer, Alexander, Young, and Brandon were all selected and groomed by this administration. The only real injury question marks are Walls and Middlebrooks, and Walls doesn't even really have a history, just one bad season. I just don't see the value in turning over all the depth in the secondary every season. What's more, if Walls and Middlebrooks are such a question mark, why did we let our only other reliable DB go?

I see why a CB or two (depending on value) were necessary this year. It's just hard to ignore the long running trend that is our inability to figure out the secondary. IMO, if we got our d-line figured out (and we may have) then I think these secondary issues would be come a lot less pressing.

[yavoon]

I like the tone of this thread. Nice retort.

I think that many of the prognosticators on this board had studied Denver's needs and assumed naturally that the draft would be used to adress those needs. Well, new needs have surfaced recently. It is obvious that Shanny and co. decided to come out of the draft with speed and man-to-man abilities on the corners. They used what they had in picks to address those needs.

The reasons for the picks are fairly obvious. Two division rivals have talented offenses including one who recently acquired the best reciever in football. The Raiders will have an all-out arial attack.

The Chiefs' passing game is secondary to their run game, but it helps to have as much of an advantage as you can when they run the ball so well.

Not to mention the fact that the secondary was roasted again by the Colts in the playoffs.

All in all with Clarett and the Guard from Miami included with the corners, I think that this draft has excellent potential to fill some needs this season as well as in the future. You have to remember to incude the fleecing of the 'Skins in the equation when you evaluate this one as well.

I think it would be prudent to wait to see who denver really drafts to say how much benefit the skins picks were.

[Mediator12]

Mediator, I get where you are coming from. But you could rationalize (injuries, character, fit for system, pending FA) that way about nearly every position on the field, including OL and WR. Shoate, LeSuer, Alexander, Young, and Brandon were all selected and groomed by this administration. The only real injury question marks are Walls and Middlebrooks, and Walls doesn't even really have a history, just one bad season. I just don't see the value in turning over all the depth in the secondary every season. What's more, if Walls and Middlebrooks are such a question mark, why did we let our only other reliable DB go?

I see why a CB or two (depending on value) were necessary this year. It's just hard to ignore the long running trend that is our inability to figure out the secondary. IMO, if we got our d-line figured out (and we may have) then I think these secondary issues would be come a lot less pressing.

Forget the long running trend, there has been a change in Philosophy in the secondary. Middlebrooks and O'Neal were drafted under different schemes for different purposes. We are weeding out the pretenders to playing in the current scheme and NFL paradigm.

Shoate has a degenerative Patellar tendon Injury and may never be the same. Alexander is an UDFA and could have gone in the top 2 rounds if Legal Issues at Washington were not still Pending. Young is a guy I like to stay and Play more. Brandon has not proved to have the football intelligence to play Safety in coverage and has had his shot. Leseuer will make the Change to safety.

I am still trying to figure out why they let Herndon go this year. I have no Clue???

As for the other positions of OG and WR, I think I explained that earlier. They did get Chris Myers OG from Miami to groom as well as Clabo, Alexander and Sewell in the mix. For all the WR talk, I like our WR's. I know I am in the minority, but I really think Watts, Nate Jackson, And Triandos Luke will contribute more in their second year.

[yavoon]

Forget the long running trend, there has been a change in Philosophy in the secondary. Middlebrooks and O'Neal were drafted under different schemes for different purposes. We are weeding out the pretenders to playing in the current scheme and NFL paradigm.

Shoate has a degenerative Patellar tendon Injury and may never be the same. Alexander is an UDFA and could have gone in the top 2 rounds if Legal Issues at Washington were not still Pending. Young is a guy I like to stay and Play more. Brandon has not proved to have the football intelligence to play Safety in coverage and has had his shot. Leseuer will make the Change to safety.

I am still trying to figure out why they let Herndon go this year. I have no Clue???

As for the other positions of OG and WR, I think I explained that earlier. They did get Chris Myers OG from Miami to groom as well as Clabo, Alexander and Sewell in the mix. For all the WR talk, I like our WR's. I know I am in the minority, but I really think Watts, Nate Jackson, And Triandos Luke will contribute more in their second year.

seems to me like more realy athletic corners with bad hands or technique or both and denver relying on upside.

[Bronco LB 59]

seems to me like more realy athletic corners with bad hands or technique or both and denver relying on upside.


Yeah right!

Darrent Williams is as polished as rookie corners come. His major weakness is his God given height. He also intercepted six passes during his junior season. Karl Paymah is known for his physical play. He's going to make some WRs very unhappy around the LOS.

[Mediator12]

seems to me like more realy athletic corners with bad hands or technique or both and denver relying on upside.

This is why I rarely pay attention to you anymore yavoon. All three have good hands and are fast. Technique can be fixed; being slow can not. Read Coyer's take on Speed in the Q&A from DB.com for the needs.

[yavoon]

This is why I rarely pay attention to you anymore yavoon. All three have good hands and are fast. Technique can be fixed; being slow can not. Read Coyer's take on Speed in the Q&A from DB.com for the needs.

we all know the broncos love speed. plenty of speed has flopped out of the nfl.

and I've specfically seen reports on mane saying that atleast one of the dbs doesnt have good hands.

[yavoon]

Yeah right!

Darrent Williams is as polished as rookie corners come. His major weakness is his God given height. He also intercepted six passes during his junior season. Karl Paymah is known for his physical play. He's going to make some WRs very unhappy around the LOS.


haha sarcasm right?

right?....

[ØrangeÇrush]

We all keep focusing on Middlebrooks and O'neal. These aren't busted players imo. O'neal is a hot dogger, and will always be one, but he had a pretty good season in Cincy. Middlebrooks has been effective when he's on the field, however we've developed some really good corners. herndon didn't get that fat paycheck from Seattle because he couldn't cover folks. Wall wasnt tendered as a 1st rounder because he couldn't play. Most want to focus on the negatives, and while O'neal is the biggest negative we've had, we've had a lot of positives as well.

[Mediator12]

we all know the broncos love speed. plenty of speed has flopped out of the nfl.

and I've specfically seen reports on mane saying that atleast one of the dbs doesnt have good hands.

Yes, I've seen the "reports" and they must all be true right, because they have been published here.

I have yet to read where anyone of these guys has Questionable hands.

[Drek]

haha sarcasm right?

right?.... No, its true, Darrent Williams is Pacman Jones minus the hype. He's not the type of player to miss an opportunity around the ball, and is an ideal fit as a nickle DB. He also is a real good punt/kick returner. If he would have gotten the media play that some of the other top corners got he'd have been a first round pick. He's a hell of a lot better than Fabian Washington, who the Raiders took with the 23rd overall pick.

Paymah's hands are questionable, he's a very physical CB, much like Walls (and ironically, many of our busted CBs) he doesn't have great ball awareness from what I've heard and relies on his natural athletecism a lot. A real good tackler though, with lots of speed at is about 6' 200 pounds, so he's a prototypical ST gunner for kickoffs and punts.

Foxworth was a major standout talent on the Maryland defense, though thats not saying a ton in my opinion. He is fast however, and has a history of making plays around the ball, so yet another guy who doesn't really have bad hands.

Brandon Browner, our UDFA CB, was once talked about as a potential first round pick. A poor combine time hurt that, though I'm not sure what took him all the way to the ranks of the undrafted. He's got great size (over 6'3"), but has only average speed. Some are talking about him as being moved to FS as soon as he's in camp. He also has good hands and ball awareness if I recall.

Of the guys we took only Paymah's scouting report reads like another O'Neal, Brown, or Middlebrooks, with the whole "bad hands" or "lacks ball awareness". The other three, especially Williams, are quality when it comes to locating and making plays on the ball.

I get the feeling we only took Paymah before Foxworth because we didn't think he'd last, though Foxworth seems the more impressive of the two. Paymah is a "workout warrior" i.e. loves the gym and therefore has great combine numbers, plus he looks like a great CB in shorts. He's stiff on the pivot though and looses track of the ball in flight. I don't think he'll ever amount to a starting CB for us, but the FO wanted to upgrade special teams this draft and Paymah is supposed to be downright exceptional in the role of kickoff/punt return gunner.

[yavoon]

Yes, I've seen the "reports" and they must all be true right, because they have been published here.

I have yet to read where anyone of these guys has Questionable hands.

as opposed to what? mediators word?

drek seems to have read something similar to what I've read minus the jones for williams

[Mediator12]

as opposed to what? mediators word?

No, the fact that I do my own Research instead of playing devils advocate with the theories and conclusions of others.

[yavoon]

No, the fact that I do my own Research instead of playing devils advocate with the theories and conclusions of others.


hrrm so far u've mocked the "reports" and then claimed u were correct. u could be the god of research but it sure as hell aint coming through.

[Mediator12]

I bring original thoughts to the board based on the facts I uncover. I look for alternative points of view and try to be objective as possible. I am certainly open to criticism and commentary. I am not always right, but I am willing to go out on a limb and think.

However, all I have ever seen you accomplish is to take the work of others and comment negatively on it. This is confounded with absolutely nothing to base your opinion except your own unique perspective. Thanks for the commentary. Hope bashing my analysis makes you feel better. As a matter of fact, keep going. I could use all of the constructive criticism you seem to be able to muster.

[Drek]

Med, do you really think Paymah has good hands? I've seen a little footage on Williams, Browner and Foxworth, they have legit cover skills from what I've seen, but everything I've heard on Paymah has him as basically a special teams guy who has a long ways to go before he should try covering an NFL caliber WR man to man. He can cover in zones and with help, since he's real physical he makes it tough on opposing WRs, but on the NFL level I see him getting burnt too easily when he needs to turn and close on the WR. Apparently is an unquestionably good ST gunner and tackler though. Future safety maybe? He's got good size, another 5-10 pounds would give him ideal weight and probably still keep him at real good speed or a safety.

[yavoon]

I bring original thoughts to the board based on the facts I uncover. I look for alternative points of view and try to be objective as possible. I am certainly open to criticism and commentary. I am not always right, but I am willing to go out on a limb and think.

However, all I have ever seen you accomplish is to take the work of others and comment negatively on it. This is confounded with absolutely nothing to base your opinion except your own unique perspective. Thanks for the commentary. Hope bashing my analysis makes you feel better. As a matter of fact, keep going. I could use all of the constructive criticism you seem to be able to muster.

I fail to see so far what work u've done. anyone could have made the posts u've made. having an opinion, flaming ppl, and mocking other information is hardly ground breaking research.

[Old Dude]

...everything I've heard on Paymah has him as basically a special teams guy who has a long ways to go before he should try covering an NFL caliber WR man to man. He can cover in zones and with help, since he's real physical he makes it tough on opposing WRs, but on the NFL level I see him getting burnt too easily when he needs to turn and close on the WR. Apparently is an unquestionably good ST gunner and tackler though. Future safety maybe? He's got good size, another 5-10 pounds would give him ideal weight and probably still keep him at real good speed or a safety.

I've been thinking the same thing, but that's not what the Shanahan has been saying. He seems to regard Paymah as a legit prospect at the corner.

- - one thing to keep in mind - - he was apparently playing with an injured foot through most of the season.

[Mile High Shack]

I've been thinking the same thing, but that's not what the Shanahan has been saying. He seems to regard Paymah as a legit prospect at the corner.

- - one thing to keep in mind - - he was apparently playing with an injured foot through most of the season.
Oh lord…that screams of Willie Middlebrooks, BUT he wasn’t a 1st round pick at least

[Odysseus]

Forget the long running trend, there has been a change in Philosophy in the secondary. Middlebrooks and O'Neal were drafted under different schemes for different purposes. We are weeding out the pretenders to playing in the current scheme and NFL paradigm.

Shoate has a degenerative Patellar tendon Injury and may never be the same. Alexander is an UDFA and could have gone in the top 2 rounds if Legal Issues at Washington were not still Pending. Young is a guy I like to stay and Play more. Brandon has not proved to have the football intelligence to play Safety in coverage and has had his shot. Leseuer will make the Change to safety.

I am still trying to figure out why they let Herndon go this year. I have no Clue???

As for the other positions of OG and WR, I think I explained that earlier. They did get Chris Myers OG from Miami to groom as well as Clabo, Alexander and Sewell in the mix. For all the WR talk, I like our WR's. I know I am in the minority, but I really think Watts, Nate Jackson, And Triandos Luke will contribute more in their second year.

I like our WR's too. I think Watts, Jackson and Luke could fill out.

I'm thinking that Herndon peaked. He wanted more money than the Broncos were willing to pay. Despite having good skills he wasn't consistent. Why give a long term deal to Herndon when you can get a faster and younger prospect?

[epicSocialism4tw]

No, its true, Darrent Williams is Pacman Jones minus the hype. He's not the type of player to miss an opportunity around the ball, and is an ideal fit as a nickle DB. He also is a real good punt/kick returner. If he would have gotten the media play that some of the other top corners got he'd have been a first round pick. He's a hell of a lot better than Fabian Washington, who the Raiders took with the 23rd overall pick.

Paymah's hands are questionable, he's a very physical CB, much like Walls (and ironically, many of our busted CBs) he doesn't have great ball awareness from what I've heard and relies on his natural athletecism a lot. A real good tackler though, with lots of speed at is about 6' 200 pounds, so he's a prototypical ST gunner for kickoffs and punts.

Foxworth was a major standout talent on the Maryland defense, though thats not saying a ton in my opinion. He is fast however, and has a history of making plays around the ball, so yet another guy who doesn't really have bad hands.

Brandon Browner, our UDFA CB, was once talked about as a potential first round pick. A poor combine time hurt that, though I'm not sure what took him all the way to the ranks of the undrafted. He's got great size (over 6'3"), but has only average speed. Some are talking about him as being moved to FS as soon as he's in camp. He also has good hands and ball awareness if I recall.

Of the guys we took only Paymah's scouting report reads like another O'Neal, Brown, or Middlebrooks, with the whole "bad hands" or "lacks ball awareness". The other three, especially Williams, are quality when it comes to locating and making plays on the ball.

I get the feeling we only took Paymah before Foxworth because we didn't think he'd last, though Foxworth seems the more impressive of the two. Paymah is a "workout warrior" i.e. loves the gym and therefore has great combine numbers, plus he looks like a great CB in shorts. He's stiff on the pivot though and looses track of the ball in flight. I don't think he'll ever amount to a starting CB for us, but the FO wanted to upgrade special teams this draft and Paymah is supposed to be downright exceptional in the role of kickoff/punt return gunner.

If you guys remember, Darrent Williams was the best corner around at the senior bowl prep camp and he showed well in the game as well. I figured that he showed enough to make it into the 1st round, but I guess the size knocked him back. I'm glad that the good guys got him.

[Needa Pass Rush]

your kidding right?

Please tell me you are?


Yeah, totally made that up. Just adding to all the other wild speculation. ;D

[Cito Pelon]

For all the WR talk, I like our WR's. I know I am in the minority, but I really think Watts, Nate Jackson, And Triandos Luke will contribute more in their second year.

Watts and Luke are definitely keepers.

[Ballhawk]

I have not seen one report on Williams that says he is not a very good cover guy. I do think he will be our nickle back for the next 4 years and will bring a definate boost to our return game.

[Drek]

I've been thinking the same thing, but that's not what the Shanahan has been saying. He seems to regard Paymah as a legit prospect at the corner.
Yeah, well, Shanahan isn't going to say "we drafted this guy to take Dante Hall's head off on kick and punt returns, he's got no future as a CB, but we might try moving him to safety before its all said and done". When a CB is slow to turn and pursue a WR he's going to get burnt deep and often. Maybe if Paymah is healthy and works at it he can fix that, but I still think Williams and Foxworth are more likely starting CBs at the NFL level. Foxworth especially. At just a bit below 6 feet he's got a lot of speed and real good instincts. He has the potential to be a legit #2 CB.

[DBroncos4life]

Does anyone remember when Bell was on ST? He was always the first one down there becuase of his speed. Denver drafted two gunners with Bell's speed. They will out run the punt and force more FC's and that I will bet money on. Most of the time the only impact rookies have is on ST's so why not speed the time to get the best at it? In time they will develop into starters either at the number two spot or the nickel or dime guy. The only reason people think this draft is bad is because these names are not high on internet sites or in there damn $8 mag they bought. Im willing to bet that everyone that voted on that rank the draft poll havn't seen more then two of our draft picks in action....and for that I will pull the :bs: flag.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Forget the long running trend, there has been a change in Philosophy in the secondary. Middlebrooks and O'Neal were drafted under different schemes for different purposes. We are weeding out the pretenders to playing in the current scheme and NFL paradigm.

Shoate has a degenerative Patellar tendon Injury and may never be the same. Alexander is an UDFA and could have gone in the top 2 rounds if Legal Issues at Washington were not still Pending. Young is a guy I like to stay and Play more. Brandon has not proved to have the football intelligence to play Safety in coverage and has had his shot. Leseuer will make the Change to safety.

I am still trying to figure out why they let Herndon go this year. I have no Clue???

As for the other positions of OG and WR, I think I explained that earlier. They did get Chris Myers OG from Miami to groom as well as Clabo, Alexander and Sewell in the mix. For all the WR talk, I like our WR's. I know I am in the minority, but I really think Watts, Nate Jackson, And Triandos Luke will contribute more in their second year.

Great post as usual Mediator. I do think they will bring in a vet WR or two after June 1 and probably another vet OL guy. Shanahan did admit they wanted a WR - just didn't see what he wanted at the proper time and there was a definite shortage of Eddy Mac type guys this year with size and hands.

[DB-Freak]

we all know the broncos love speed. plenty of speed has flopped out of the nfl.

and I've specfically seen reports on mane saying that atleast one of the dbs doesnt have good hands.
It was either Foxworth or Payman.

Darrant Williams has great hands and according to some draft "experts" the best in terms of pure cover ability. Very Smoot like.

The others are big on upside, but they aint raw as O'neal or Watson. They all have a lot of experience and intercepted many passes.

They cant be worse than Walls and Herdon in terms of hands.

[bendog]

I am still trying to figure out why they let Herndon go this year. I have no Clue
__
Your initial post on the thread has the answer, imo. Herndon is a physical corner short on pure measurables. It's now illegal to play wr's physically. All three draft picks have more speed. So, it's cap allocation to the position; freeing up roster room for developmental guys who may become better players than him; and doing the right thing by the guy - which in addition to being the decent way to treat a guy also has the advantage of not poisoning a lockerroom.

Additionally, this year was deep in latter round corners and last year was deeper in wrs. Shanny's not reaching so much as drafting numbers from deep pools.

carlo rossi was of course a reach (stab in the dark)

[Tom A Hawk]

We now have five CB's who run 4.3 or better. Bailey, Alexander, Williams, Paymah, and Foxworth. We now also have six CB's 6'0 and Over in Bailey, Middlebrooks, Walls, Leseuer, Browner, and Paymah. Of those taller guys both Browner and Leseuer will probably project to FS. Hopefully we can trade Sam Brandon NOW FINALLY to a team that needs an experienced FS (Hey, I can still pray right?).

Bailey is the man on one side and Walls is the one to unseat on the other. Walls is also coming off of two surgeries last season and in a contract year. The real position up for grabs is Nickleback. This is usually a quicker and faster CB rather than a taller guy here. Herndon was 5'10 on a good day and this is where he excelled last year. He covered the slot in the nickle and Roc covered the outside because Kelly was better at the Nickle coverage than outside. This is where I see Darrent Williams being extremely effective. His quickness and suddenness to the ball are his strength's. He may never be a pure #2 CB, but in this pass happy league where over 50% of the defensive snaps are from the nickle he could excel in the slot.

Middlebrooks has been injured and may have to miss games due to league suspension for the Domestic Violence incident (Talk about being a dumbass!). Shoate was injured last year during the season and tried to tough it out since the rest of the CB core was dropping like flies. Alexander was a UDFA due to his legal issues at Washington. He may still have issues outstanding with that case DURING THIS SEASON. Leseuer will probably switch to safety where he was projected to be anyway.

So lets take a little recap of the possibility of drafting 3 and obtaining another CB this offseason. It is a definite need for depth at a position made that much more thin by not renting Herndon for another year. There is no Guarantee that any Backup CB from this team last year will NOT miss some time due to Injuries, Legal issues, or Position switch.

On the surface, it was extremely frustrating to watch them do this during the draft because no one here foresaw the need at that time. OG, WR, DL and other positions were another perceived need for this team. Obviously, the OG's of Clabo, Sewell, and PJ Alexander are good enough to back up Carlisle or compete in the mind of the staff and They must have graded better in practice last year than anyone here believed.

WR is an interesting need in that everyone still wants a McCaffrey Clone for a possession WR. I was all aboard the Vincent Jackson express like many here. However, since Eddie hung up the cleats, the Broncos have changed their third down Packages to compensate. We all KNOW Jake is not the most accurate QB around and the Third down packages have been designed to accomodate Jake's Strength's and not the WR's. Let's hope they are more successful in executing these next year.

DL, well we already have too many as it is. Coyer really prefers teaching Veteran DL his system as evidenced by the trend of picking up middle level players here and making them more than just Functional. Now, if injuries do not decimate the talented guys brought in, which is very possible, he will finally have some talent to work with as well. It would have been nice to pick up a young guy in the draft but not much was left at 56 except Hawthorne who did not pass the Character and Hard working test.

It took a little while for all of the Chaos and Confusion to clear about the reasons for these draft picks and Acquisitions. I certainly did not foresee any of this going down in this manner. Now that the smoke is starting to clear, I can at least see the logic behind the perceived Madness.

see, this is one of the reasons I like to come to your board......you don't need any props from a Chiefs fan, but, I think your logic has good merit.

[Mile High Shack]

see, this is one of the reasons I like to come to your board......you don't need any props from a Chiefs fan, but, I think your logic has good merit.

he's probably my favorite poster logic wise and understandin of the game and team itself than anyone else on this board

other guys are funnier, but if I want the straight poop.......

[bendog]

he's probably my favorite poster logic wise and understandin of the game and team itself than anyone else on this board

other guys are funnier, but if I want the straight poop.......
That psychology stuff he posts is gay though (-:

[Mile High Shack]

That psychology stuff he posts is gay though (-:

yeah that's true in fact he probably does tend to drift a little to the gay side ;)

[Mediator12]

he's probably my favorite poster logic wise and understandin of the game and team itself than anyone else on this board

other guys are funnier, but if I want the straight poop.......

Thanks, Shack! Most people miss my humor when not delivered in person therefore just straight analysis and Opinion. Sarcasm is a lost art on the internet without visual context.

[Rascal]

Thanks, Shack! Most people miss my humor when not delivered in person therefore just straight analysis and Opinion. Sarcasm is a lost art on the internet without visual context.

you need to learn the art of smily faces :)

[Mile High Shack]

Thanks, Shack! Most people miss my humor when not delivered in person therefore just straight analysis and Opinion. Sarcasm is a lost art on the internet without visual context.
Well most psychologists are a tad dry…LOL j/k

You don’t want to go anywhere near my head, it’s a dangerous place!!

[Mediator12]

yeah that's true in fact he probably does tend to drift a little to the gay side ;)

Geez, right after I say thank you. Never fails, where is that delete post key again?

BTW, I'll let my wife know right after my son is born next week. I figure the trama of childbirth and coming out is a little much during the same week huh?

[Mile High Shack]

Geez, right after I say thank you. Never fails, where is that delete post key again?

BTW, I'll let my wife know right after my son is born next week. I figure the trama of childbirth and coming out is a little much during the same week huh?

hey now, read my rep comment :)

I kid b/c I love (not in a gay way).....not that there is anything wrong with that :)

your first kid??

I'm having mine June 20thish

(btw...see that was funny I got that)

[Mediator12]

you need to learn the art of smily faces :)

I use them every once in awhile, but they do help I guess :dummy:

[Mediator12]

hey now, read my rep comment :)

I kid b/c I love (not in a gay way).....not that there is anything wrong with that :)

your first kid??

I'm having mine June 20thish

(btw...see that was funny I got that)

Number two. I stay home with my daughter and that is why I get to post some during the day. School and clients are mostly at night. Doing a lot of Marriage and Family Therapy right now.

[bendog]

Number two. I stay home with my daughter and that is why I get to post some during the day. School and clients are mostly at night. Doing a lot of Marriage and Family Therapy right now.
Do you do it by email. Mrs Dog needs some fine tuning.

[Rascal]

Do you do it by email. Mrs Dog needs some fine tuning.

LOL!

Hmmm...I think I need to enroll Mrs Rascal as well.

[Mile High Shack]

LOL!

Hmmm...I think I need to enroll Mrs Rascal as well.
I won’t lie….I need the enrollment, not Mrs. Shack

[Mediator12]

Do you do it by email. Mrs Dog needs some fine tuning.

Would that be scapegoating or just projection Bendog :)

[bendog]

Well I've been trying to eliminate some of her problem behaviors, but the liver treats I got at Pet Smart don't really seem to be motivating her

[Rohirrim]

Good analysis, as always, Mediator. One thing, though. I don't how you can say that Shanny would "never" have picked a guy like Hawthorne. Hell, he picked a guy like Clarett and a guy like Gardner. Now that I'm over the initial shock, I can see the benefit of Darrent (although I thought Perkins or either of the UCLA WRs could have brought the same P/KR abilities to the table PLUS some WR skills). What do I know. Still, the pass rush is suspect - and after all these years - still the biggest hole. I don't know if a bunch of fast CBs can make up for it, but I doubt it. Maybe Coyer does plan to go a little more 3/4 (hype or no) and rush DJ, Chuka, etc. I don't know. The Clarett pick, I doubt I will ever like. The CBs are wait and see. I feel comfortable with the Darrent and Enster picks (need) but in reality, I'm already in "Wait till next year" mode.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

see, this is one of the reasons I like to come to your board......you don't need any props from a Chiefs fan, but, I think your logic has good merit.


He is just too damn logical. What we need is more hysteria on this baord. :)

[Macnut]

I did not look very hard, But is Timmy Chang still out there?
He signed a FA contract with Arizona.

[IbleedORANGEandBLUE]

is george gause still available? i think he is a valid project on the defensive line, a great pick up for the PS...

[El Guapo]

we should have picked up aaron glen (texans dropped him), but i know i know.. salary cap. :(

[Ballhawk]

we should have picked up aaron glen (texans dropped him), but i know i know.. salary cap. :(

We would of had no shot at him unless we overpaid by a lot...he went and signed with Parcells almost immediately

[Mediator12]

Anyone see tampering happening with Parcells agent getting two FA's signed before they even got a sniff from anyone else??? Glen and Ferguson share an agent WITH Parcells.

[DBroncos4life]

Anyone see tampering happening with Parcells agent getting two FA's signed before they even got a sniff from anyone else??? Glen and Ferguson share an agent WITH Parcells.



We should use that sometime.

[El Guapo]

We would of had no shot at him unless we overpaid by a lot...he went and signed with Parcells almost immediately


yeah, they were reporting yesterday evening that he may be dropped and by 10 this morning he was signed with dallas.

[Pat Bowlen]

I use them every once in awhile, but they do help I guess :dummy:
Adding a smiley to a joke just so that people can understand it is like stopping after a one-liner to explain it to the audience. If they can't realize the humor without it, then they're too dumb to really appreciate it anyways.

[fontaine]

We now have five CB's who run 4.3 or better. Bailey, Alexander, Williams, Paymah, and Foxworth. We now also have six CB's 6'0 and Over in Bailey, Middlebrooks, Walls, Leseuer, Browner, and Paymah.
etc
etc
. . . .

Randall Gay: HT: 5-11 WT: 186 (Rookie FA signed in 2004)
Asante Samuel: HT: 5-10 WT: 185 (2nd year player)
H Poteat: HT: 5-10 WT: 198 (not a very fast player, career backup)
Eugene Wilson: HT: 5-10 WT: 195 (not known for his speed)
Rodney Harrison: HT: 6-1 (Aging and lost several steps)

Q: What's the common denominator among these five players apart from the fact that none of them would be guaranteed starters in any other team? (apart from Harrison)

A: They're DBs that played in the SuperBowl for the patriots and are all now sporting shiny new SuperBowl rings.

New England, more or less, used these players for much of the season when their secondary was decimated by injuries on their way to a recording breaking winning season (most wins in a row ever)

These guys are neither tall or quick. Yet they're all winners because New England did the same thing last SuperBowl as they've done before. Use their front 7 to disrupt the line of scrimmage and get to the QB.

Q: Do you know what's the most frustrating thing about watching Denver's defense?

A: Seeing a hugely talented set of LBs/DBs get screwed over and over by a DL that isn't worth a crap.


My only question is how long do we keep spending money/draft picks on our DBs, LBs until this team realizes it doesn't matter a damn if the DL isn't good enough (like the majority of the past 4/5 years) ?

Since Elway and the SuperBowl years, Denver has drafted a measley 4 DL in the first day of 8 drafts with no first round picks invested in that area. That's gotta be some kind of NFL record. The only player left from those 4 draft picks is ironically the worst one of the bunch: Dorsett Davis.

I don't give a crap if Paymah, Darrent Williams etc all run 4.4 40s and are tall etc.

That's all fine and good.

But in the past three years this team hasn't spent a single first day pick on DL.

Given the amount of extra first day picks we've had recently and the crappy DLs we've fielded PLUS the amount of free agent DL turds we've picked up (Gardener, Dalton, Lett, Raylee Johnson, Luther Ellis etc), it's nothing short of remarkeable that Shanahan, Sundquist etc still refuse to draft for DL.

[fontaine]

It's downright naseauting to realize the current situation of the DL and how it got there.

A couple of years ago the plan was bring in high priced older vets who used to be household names: Leon Lett, Mcghlocton, Keith Washington etc.

Then, it was bring in older aging vets for minimum because no one wants them: Raylee Johnson, Luther Ellis, Marco Coleman, Darius Holland

And now this year they're trying to bring in young underachievers and injury cases: C Brown, Warren, Ekuban.

Seriously, what the ph*ck is it going to take before Denver realizes that 9/10 pro-bowl stud DL like Jason Taylor, Seymour, Shaun Rogers, Kris Jenkins, Darren Howard, Kevin Williams, Marcus Stroud, etc are drafted by their respective teams.

The back to back SuperBowl Champions are getting it done with relatively slow-small DBs (Tyrone Poole anybody) and a powerhouse front 7 while we're too busy forking out $50million on one CB and drafting bust after bust after bust at CB.

Mediator, you know we see eye to eye on a lot of things. If you're trying to convince me that these CBs picks are worthy selections, then fair enough, you've made your point.

But if you're trying to tell me that drafting 4 first day CBs in the past two drafts and ZERO DL is gonna work in the long run or get us any closer to the SuperBowl, then I flat out don't belive it.

I watched a bunch of raw/average DBs in the New England secondary hold up fine against vaunted passing offenses like Indy, Philly etc.

And at the same time I saw Deion Branch haul in a record tying 11 SuperBowl catches against one of the best secondaries in the league because they couldn't get to Brady.

Right now Indy/Moss has Shanahan so wound up that he's drafting CBs in his sleep.

[Odysseus]

Fontaine,
You are right. I wonder when they are going to draft an entire DL of new guys.

I'm willing to bet our DL is better than average and our beat up pathetic and loser DL is more than meets the eye.

Let's see what the reports are from training camp. We have some people with a good eye on this stuff.

[Mediator12]

Therein lies the dilemma fontaine. The vaunted pass rush versus coverage debate.
I agree wholeheartedly that Denver needs talented DL to accomplish anything significant in todays NFL. I sincerely hope the Cleveland talent Influx and a healthy Trevor can revamp the pass rush that was so inconsistent last season. For all the talk of drafting high round Busts at CB there has been very little cry for the Top level DL drafted since Trevor.

I know for a fact that Denver downgraded the DL talent at the top of the draft this year giving only Two First round grades to DL and both were gone by 17.

What happened last year, they took DJ instead of Will Smith, Kenechi Udeze, and Wilfork. The real travesty was watching Dockett and Starks go off the board in the third after Watts went at 54. There was talent there but they went Offense in round two.

As for the DL, I realize they need Talent. I really Do. It is amazing to me that the Defense finished as high as it did last year with the Worst Pass rush in the top Half of the League. That, coupled with the secondary coaching troubles of SOG, is truly mystifying. The FO decided they could address this problem through CLE castoffs this year. They have had Good success turning careers around on the DL with average Talent. Let's see if the can do it with Good talent and make something better than the sum of its parts.

[Rascal]

Besides Toviessi they haven't tried to address the D-line in the draft (top two rounds anyway).

[Mediator12]

Also fontaine, it really comes down to HOW the team best addresses needs in the offseason. I think they have traditionally not tried to make draft picks replace immediate starting needs, DJ excluded since he stepped in right away.

The CB's were drafted to fulfill needed Depth in a secondary in disarray. The DL guys were acquired to both start (Warren and Brown if healthy) and provide better rotation depth (Ekuban and Myers). DL needed instant help, where CB needed an overhaul. Hopefully, Williams can be an instant success in the ST's arena and compete for the Nickel spot. Foxworth and Paymah might take a year to acclimate or step up immediately. Browner, depends on where they project him, but I would love to see his skills at FS and the Red Zone.

[bendog]

With the premium on pass rush, I'm not sure teams can do much in the first w/o a high pick. After the run at 16-18 the only guys in the first were Castillo and Patterson, both of whom are big questions. That's why the chefs giving the fish the Roth pick is, imo, a huge coup for the fish. Then, by the time den gets it's second rd pick, both Cody's and Roth are gone.

04 wasnt' a steller dline year. Smith instead of DJ? not for me.

I'm hoping next year Den aims dline with the wash pick. One and maybe two of the CB, Big Ass, and Pryce will move on.

[fontaine]

What happened last year, they took DJ instead of Will Smith, Kenechi Udeze, and Wilfork. The real travesty was watching Dockett and Starks go off the board in the third after Watts went at 54. There was talent there but they went Offense in round two.

As for the DL, I realize they need Talent. I really Do. It is amazing to me that the Defense finished as high as it did last year with the Worst Pass rush in the top Half of the League. That, coupled with the secondary coaching troubles of SOG, is truly mystifying. The FO decided they could address this problem through CLE castoffs this year. They have had Good success turning careers around on the DL with average Talent. Let's see if the can do it with Good talent and make something better than the sum of its parts.

Fair enough.

Here's where I'm coming from Med, and I'd be curious to see what you think of this. You mentioned Wilfork (good observation).

Last year, Denver had a chance to move down and still draft Vince Wilfork.

Now Wilfork, is very, very similar to Gerard Warren. Wilfork is a wide bodied run stuffer who can play NT or two gap and he has quickness, strength and burst so that he can collapse the pocket and command double teams. He played very well late in the season during the Pats playoff push.

Here's what ticks me off about this. Denver doesn't draft a guy like Wilfork when they had a chance to, even though he fits very well in our need area but they wait a year and take a chance on almost an identical player who has issues with underachieving in Gerard Warren for basically a one year deal.

That reeks of short sightedness. And Denver has a history of doing this again and again. Instead of addressing the needs at DL, they'll wait until it's too late and we lose a Berry, Pryce, or Hayward and then try to fit in a retread/aging/injured DL when surely they know 8/10 times that doesn't work in the long run.

Let's look at it deeper. Denver's drafted 3 first day CBs this year partly because Walls is going to be a free agent and Middlebrooks is usually injured. But going into last season they knew Berry had left, Hayward was going into his contract year and then to top it all off Pryce got injured.

Yet still there was no sign of DL in the draft last year or this year. They can draft 4 CBs in the first day because Walls is going to be a FA and Middlebrooks is injury prone but they just don't apply that same common sense to a critical area in the DL.

The reason I'm laboring on about issue, is that I'm beginning to fear that ignoring DL in the draft is more a well thought out practice and way of thinking in Dove Valley than an accident. Do you think this is the case as well?

[DBroncos4life]

Why draft Dline players when we can just get them from the Browns?

[fontaine]

Also fontaine, it really comes down to HOW the team best addresses needs in the offseason. I think they have traditionally not tried to make draft picks replace immediate starting needs, DJ excluded since he stepped in right away.

The CB's were drafted to fulfill needed Depth in a secondary in disarray. The DL guys were acquired to both start (Warren and Brown if healthy) and provide better rotation depth (Ekuban and Myers). DL needed instant help, where CB needed an overhaul.

That arguement only works if you're drafting and signing FAs purely for a one year basis.

If we had drafted Starks, or Docket, or Wilfork last year then we wouldn't have had to bring in all these scrubs from the browns this year.

[Mediator12]

Well, there's underachieving and there is playing in Cleveland! They seem to make it a lost art of how not to utilize their talent. Having Warren play two gap was not very smart on their part and Patterson changed it after Davis left and Robiskie took over.

I seriously think Warren is here for the long hall if he meets expectations this season. The FO has missed keeping alot of talent on the DL over the last three years with Berry and Hayward not signing deals to extend before FA. I hope they have learned their lesson, but what do I know?

As for Wilfork, he really is a two Gap guy with explosiveness and not an explosive guy who can play two gap. That may sound semantic but it is how I see it. Warren's Strength is penetration, Wilfork's is two gap. They are built similar but have different functions primarily. Plus, Wilfork had three first rounders in Ty Warren, Richard Seymour and Traylor starting in front of him; that helps.

Finally, the last couple of drafts have been weaker than usual in the DL. Next years look really prime especially at the top. Rod Wright, Mathias Kiwanuka, possibly Mario Williams, Orien Harris, Gabe Watson are all legit first round talent. I sincerely hope if they get a shot at Rod Wright they take him. He is the prototypical DT in todays schemes.

[fontaine]

As for Wilfork, he really is a two Gap guy with explosiveness and not an explosive guy who can play two gap. That may sound semantic but it is how I see it. Warren's Strength is penetration, Wilfork's is two gap. They are built similar but have different functions primarily. Plus, Wilfork had three first rounders in Ty Warren, Richard Seymour and Traylor starting in front of him; that helps.


That's true. But Denver has no excuses for not drafting for DL last year if guys like Shoate/Lesuer dont pan out.

Finally, the last couple of drafts have been weaker than usual in the DL. Next years look really prime especially at the top. Rod Wright, Mathias Kiwanuka, possibly Mario Williams, Orien Harris, Gabe Watson are all legit first round talent. I sincerely hope if they get a shot at Rod Wright they take him. He is the prototypical DT in todays schemes.

I hope so. But that depends on Jake Plummer. If he plays horribly this year then Denver has to draft a QB in the first day with the only pick they have available (the rest already being mocked up to CB in their draft board ofcourse)

[DBroncos4life]

That arguement only works if you're drafting and signing FAs purely for a one year basis.

If we had drafted Starks, or Docket, or Wilfork last year then we wouldn't have had to bring in all these scrubs from the browns this year.



I would really wait to see how these guys do in Denver before you bash them. Also both EE and Myers played well last year. Warren DID do his job last year. His job was to take up space and he did that. Brown got hurt...yes again but what can you do. He got hurt trying to run down someone all the way acrossed the field, so you know he doesn't just give up on a play.

[DBroncos4life]

Does anyone know if they plan on getting Browns weight down? I hope to hell they do!

[Mediator12]

That arguement only works if you're drafting and signing FAs purely for a one year basis.

If we had drafted Starks, or Docket, or Wilfork last year then we wouldn't have had to bring in all these scrubs from the browns this year.

I really believe a few of these guys will be here for the long haul. Ekuban and Warren are the primary guys and hopefully Myers and Brown too. Denver has proven it can survive with marginal talent up front. Three of these guys have very good talent and Myers is a Coyer type blue collar guy.

I certainly do not believe they all will pan out and they can keep them all. However, they will get the first opportunity to keep who they want. Then, that is where two picks in a deep DL draft come into play.

[Rascal]

I really believe a few of these guys will be here for the long haul. Ekuban and Warren are the primary guys and hopefully Myers and Brown too. Denver has proven it can survive with marginal talent up front. Three of these guys have very good talent and Myers is a Coyer type blue collar guy.

I certainly do not believe they all will pan out and they can keep them all. However, they will get the first opportunity to keep who they want. Then, that is where two picks in a deep DL draft come into play.

I don't know about using two picks next year on the DL. We have some holes to fill along the o-line with Lepsis possibly leaving with that monstrous salary hit next year not to mention guard with Nalen leaving soon, Rod is looking like vampire, and Lynch already is a vampire.

[bendog]

dJ is a pretty good reason not to trade down and get a fatty.

The "plan" was to use outside pressure and a cover corner, but the "plan" didn't anticipate the coltspussyrecievers rule changes. That's not a vote in favor of Coyer, btw.

The 05 "plan" was to ship Pryce and sign a FA (Okeafer?) and draft. But Pryce didn't buy in.

Compaing Big Ass to Wilfolk is also not valid. Big Ass is by his own statments, and those of the coaching staffs, a one gap penetrator - an under tackle. I don't think we're buying into NE's defense so much as TB's, and that's the planb.

As for the draft, Den apparantly had DJ rated higher than Will Smith. We've seen what happens when shanny forces picks and reaches for a position - delta. Smith's a good player, unlike delta, but I won't criticize them for rating DJ higher. And taking him, instead of trading down, was the correct move. He's a stud.

[Mediator12]

I don't know about using two picks next year on the DL. We have some holes to fill along the o-line with Lepsis possibly leaving with that monstrous salary hit next year not to mention guard with Nalen leaving soon, Rod is looking like vampire, and Lynch already is a vampire.

The two picks are not necessarily for two DL. They do allow them to get the player they want though. If they want to go up, they have the ammo. If they want to get one at their position they can. It allows them to get the player they want is all I am saying I guess.

[Wes Mantooth]

I had season tickets to the Oregon State Beavers. He will make an excellent CB too. Just needs to shed the 20lbs of muscle he put on before the combine. He was plenty fast at Oregon State.

I think Brandon Browner makes a better SS than FS.

[Rascal]

20 pounds of muscle before the combine? How many roids was he taking?

[Traveler]

I really believe a few of these guys will be here for the long haul. Ekuban and Warren are the primary guys and hopefully Myers and Brown too. Denver has proven it can survive with marginal talent up front. Three of these guys have very good talent and Myers is a Coyer type blue collar guy.

I certainly do not believe they all will pan out and they can keep them all. However, they will get the first opportunity to keep who they want. Then, that is where two picks in a deep DL draft come into play.

This is the problem I have with the whole DL situation. This mentality goes to the old saying "What you see is what you get." Marginal talent = mediocrity. As we all know, that's been our DL problem for years.

Unless Brown, Warren and possibly Ekuban upgrade our pass rush considerably, I don't see the team getting any better in the future. I wonder are they now too gunshy to reinvest in the DL with rookie draft choices after results turned out so badly from the 2003 draft? Next year's draft determine whether or not they are.

[Rohirrim]

I remember hearing that Shanny tried to make moves to get Tommie Harris and Suggs, and couldn't get it done. Billick tried to dance him around a bit, which worked on Tice, but not on Shanny. No reason for missing on Starks. People on this board have been screaming for years now for a pass rush. Hell, one guy even adopted that for a name, and still has had no reason to change it. How can you claim to pass on a player like Hawthorne for character issues, and then take Clarett? Hell, this is the FO that blew big bucks on Carter and Gardener. If this Brownout doesn't work (I don't have much faith it will) Shanny will have no excuse whatsover next year for not drafting the best DE available (whoever that might turn out to be after this season). Once again, Shanny goes for the retreads. How long before he gives up on that philosophy?

[Mediator12]

This is the problem I have with the whole DL situation. This mentality goes to the old saying "What you see is what you get." Marginal talent = mediocrity. As we all know, that's been our DL problem for years.

Unless Brown, Warren and possibly Ekuban upgrade our pass rush considerably, I don't see the team getting any better in the future. I wonder are they now too gunshy to reinvest in the DL with rookie draft choices after results turned out so badly from the 2003 draft? Next year's draft determine whether or not they are.

Agreed that the past two years has seen marginal talent starting on the DL.

Pryce is back as well as the three you mentioned and hopefully someone besides Warren will be able to get Push from the inside. The edge rushers (read Berry and Hayward) have always gotten good production here. TP going to that slot is intriguing to me as he is way more talented than either of those guys. Brown, IF HEALTHY, is a definite terror at LDE. Warren will be the first guy to get inside push Since TP played inside. In fact, I hope Pryce goes inside with Warren in the Nickle again and Brown, Palepoi, and Ekuban get the end spots.

Overall, the Talent has improved, but will they improve as much as the past marginal guys did? That is the real question IMHO. If Coyer, Burney, and Patterson design the right type of scheme around this talent and Just let them get after it like Coyer likes to do, then I think this DL will make a huge improvement over last year in the least. At best, they really dominate the LOS and Denver takes the next step up the ladder as a defense and a team.

[Drek]

Here's what ticks me off about this. Denver doesn't draft a guy like Wilfork when they had a chance to, even though he fits very well in our need area but they wait a year and take a chance on almost an identical player who has issues with underachieving in Gerard Warren for basically a one year deal. Didn't pay much attention to what the FO was trying to do last draft did you? Our #1 target was Harris, DJ was just one of the alternates. Harris ended up going just a couple picks before us, so until then we were hoping we could still get him. When he went there wasn't really enough time for the FO to deal down 5 or 6 spots and still get decent value out of it. Getting Wilfork was only possible at the same spot we got DJ, which would be an overpay. Besides, DJ is a great player and we needed a linebacker with Gold out the door and Mobley gone.