Foster's Development

[labronco]

Anyone else thinks Foster will be a pro-bowler soon?
Except for being picked on for the chop block last year, he did an outstanding job, I think. He stayed healthy too. I am glad that we picked Foster a couple of years ago over the other OT that got picked by SF that year (the name escapes me.)

[CBF1]

Kwame Harris was his name

[Traveler]

No if can get Khalif Barnes to pair with him, we'll bet set at the tackle position.

[Florida_Bronco]

I think Foster will be pan out pretty well for us.

[bloodsunday]

No if can get Khalif Barnes to pair with him, we'll bet set at the tackle position.

Why would we take a tackle with Lepsis and Foster?

[Traveler]

Why would we take a tackle with Lepsis and Foster?


Because there are incentives in Lepsis' contract that will allow him to become a FA after this season. We've all complained is seems like the FO doesn't plan ahead. Bringing in Barnes now will cover us for next season. He'll be able to get familiar with the blocking scheme and step in for Lepsis or Foster. Depending on if they slide Foster over to LT.

[Denver Bronco56]

i was wondering about that also?

lepsis played the best on our line last year?, why is every one talking aobut drafting one.

i know he can void his contract next year but we wont let him go, he is really good.

we need a RG more than anything but i think cooper is good, he played better than neil did, he played really good no holdng calls or anthing the last 4 games of the year

[TheDave]

Don't make me start my David Baas propaganda again...

[alkemical]

feel free - i'd be down with that propoganda machine.

[bloodsunday]

Because there are incentives in Lepsis' contract that will allow him to become a FA after this season. We've all complained is seems like the FO doesn't plan ahead. Bringing in Barnes now will cover us for next season. He'll be able to get familiar with the blocking scheme and step in for Lepsis or Foster. Depending on if they slide Foster over to LT.

I see where you are going here, but I don't think this team is in a position to look ahead with a #1 pick. We need play makers that can help us win now! In addition, we don't have enough picks this year to build quality depth through the draft.

I wish we were in a position to do something like this (the Eagles have 5 first day picks and 13 total!) but it just seems we could get more value elsewhere.

[Traveler]

Don't make me start my David Baas propaganda again...


Wouldn't mind him either. Now that we aren't forced into selecting for need, how about infusing the OL with some more talent?

[alkemical]

I see where you are going here, but I don't think this team is in a position to look ahead with a #1 pick. We need play makers that can help us win now! In addition, we don't have enough picks this year to build quality depth through the draft.

I wish we were in a position to do something like this (the Eagles have 5 first day picks and 13 total!) but it just seems we could get more value elsewhere.


no rookie is going to help you win now - you FA for the holes you need now, and draft for the future.

[bendog]

I think Baas could start at RG. But, generally, I think Foster will stay at RT and Lepsis will be back unless he's hurt or priced out of the market (which won't really happen cause he'll take a reasonable offer). If and when Foster eventually moves to LT, I'd think they'd fill the RT with either a developmental player, like Lepsis, or a journeyman like Swayne.

[Traveler]

I see where you are going here, but I don't think this team is in a position to look ahead with a #1 pick. We need play makers that can help us win now! In addition, we don't have enough picks this year to build quality depth through the draft.

I wish we were in a position to do something like this (the Eagles have 5 first day picks and 13 total!) but it just seems we could get more value elsewhere.


I've resigned myself to the fact that if we don't start the rebuliding process now, we'll forever be mired in mediocrity. Sure, I'd like to win now but we just don't the horses to do it at this time. Sooner or later, we're going to have to pay the piper. My thinking is we better start drafting some younger players to fill in for those older players who won't be here over the next 2-4 years and continue to use FA as a holdover till the younger guys are ready.

[labronco]

no rookie is going to help you win now - you FA for the holes you need now, and draft for the future.

exactly.

[labronco]

Kwame Harris was his name

yeah. Kwame. there were a lot of moaning when we didn't pick him. he's from stanford. he sucks. on a side point, stanford sucks.

[bloodsunday]

I've resigned myself to the fact that if we don't start the rebuliding process now, we'll forever be mired in mediocrity.

I oscilate back and forth on this, but mostly agree. The problem is, the coaching staff is no where near resigned to this. I don't think the common fan would be happy about it either -- without understanding all the moving parts.

[labronco]

I think Baas could start at RG. But, generally, I think Foster will stay at RT and Lepsis will be back unless he's hurt or priced out of the market (which won't really happen cause he'll take a reasonable offer). If and when Foster eventually moves to LT, I'd think they'd fill the RT with either a developmental player, like Lepsis, or a journeyman like Swayne.

what you mean, bass COULD start at RG. why are we even talking about him if he can't come in and take over?

[bloodsunday]

what you mean, bass COULD start at RG. why are we even talking about him if he can't come in and take over?

I agree, any pick on a guard must be able to start, and I think Baas fits the bill.

[labronco]

I am only listening to Bass stuff only because Dave's been raving about him for awhile ;)

However, even if he's a future probowler, shanny will not use his first or second round pick on a guard. Someone's gonna snatch him at low 1st to second round, but we will not be that team.

[bendog]

what you mean, bass COULD start at RG. why are we even talking about him if he can't come in and take over?
Well, the reason to use the "could" word is that there's no telling if shanny is really looking at him. The post was a response to people saying draft picks don't start. A linebacker can start. An edge DE rusher can impact. A WR can be a 3rd wr type. Generally, Denver has NOT started rook lineman. Bass "could" be an exception. He's very bright, and looks like he fits the physical requirements for Den's scheme.

I don't know if Carlisle has game. There are some other guards who have the speed and ability to block moving targets, but they need a year or two developing leg drive. It will depend on what shanny thinks of the line. DEn needs another WR bad. Can the guys like Luke develop? I dunno. Den may want to move up and get one. Or, possibly (and I'd prefer) move down and still get Baas, and get a couple of WR and corner and DE projects. But, in Den's scheme, the ONLY offensive lineman out there who I'd bet on starting woudl be baas. Even the freak Brown from Va I'd think would need a year of training. ANd no way will Shanny put Jake behind a rook tackle.

If Pryce is really gonna come back, it opens up a lot of possibilities.

[SoCalBronco]

i have to admit i was wrong on Foster, i wanted Harris instead. Glad Shanny was right on that one. George has alot of talent, he is just scratching the surface.

[illbroncsfn]

yeah. Kwame. there were a lot of moaning when we didn't pick him. he's from stanford. he sucks. on a side point, stanford sucks.

Don't say Stanford sucks around our hero #7!

[MT-Tdawg]

Foster played ok last year IMO, not great, but well enough. Since it was only his 1st year starting, he should be improved this year, hopefully. Since we have some dead money coming off the books next year why not try to resign Lepsis unless he is asking for way to much. He outplayed everybody on the o-line last year. I'm all for drafting some OL, but not in the 1st and 2nd. I say we use our 2 3'rds to get some OL depth.

[MT-Tdawg]

Speaking of OL, if we want some depth we really should offer Dan Niel a 2 year deal. Something just slightly over veteran minimum with a tiny SB. I know the guy is old and his knees are FUBAR, but he's a warrior, and knows our system. If he didn't have to play all the snaps he could probably last all year. If anything he could help the new guys coming in.

[bloodsunday]

Speaking of OL, if we want some depth we really should offer Dan Niel a 2 year deal. Something just slightly over veteran minimum with a tiny SB. I know the guy is old and his knees are FUBAR, but he's a warrior, and knows our system. If he didn't have to play all the snaps he could probably last all year. If anything he could help the new guys coming in.

I'd be in favor of bringing him back. It just depends on what other offers he gets and his health.

[bloodsunday]

Since we have some dead money coming off the books next year why not try to resign Lepsis unless he is asking for way to much. He outplayed everybody on the o-line last year.

Well like papi728 pointed out -- we should be thinking about getting younger and cheaper every year. Lepsis is getting to the wrong side of his career and we should already be thinking about a plan to move on before we get into a Trevor Pryce (lots of money and lots of questions) situation. Having said that, we don't have enough flexibility in our roster (depth and picks) to make this happen.

[kappys]

Foster and Lepsis both played very well. I think towards the end of the season Foster was playing very well. Lepsis did better at the LT position than at RT, so we need to keep him next year when FA hits.

As it stands now the main issue is OL depth. Our starting 5 is very good, with Carlisle being the weakest point at present. Still he played well enough last year that I don't think he is a majro concern. Behind these guys we don't have anybody right now. An injury along the Oline would be devastating for us right now because of our lack of depth.

[MT-Tdawg]

Well like papi728 pointed out -- we should be thinking about getting younger and cheaper every year. Lepsis is getting to the wrong side of his career and we should already be thinking about a plan to move on before we get into a Trevor Pryce (lots of money and lots of questions) situation. Having said that, we don't have enough flexibility in our roster (depth and picks) to make this happen.

Getting younger is a good thing, but losing our best OL wouldn't be. Plus isn't the cap suppose to get a big boost in the next couple of years? If that's the case, we need to keep players like Lepsis, and Nalen.

[bloodsunday]

Getting younger is a good thing, but losing our best OL wouldn't be. Plus isn't the cap suppose to get a big boost in the next couple of years? If that's the case, we need to keep players like Lepsis, and Nalen.

If Lepsis is playing like our best OL, the Broncos should keep him if the prices is reasonable. The trend is for a player's value to increase over his career to a point where he is no longer worth the money. It sounds crazy to just let your best o-lineman go, but sometimes you have to sacrifice to keep a good cap and draft cycle going.

In terms of a cap boost, I don't know. I do know that there are still some real issues around the new CBA. Your idea sounds good but we can't assume the Broncos want to spend all their cap money (in the event of a sudden spike) because they still have to operate the franchise. I don't know the situation, but its a consideration.

[labronco]

Don't say Stanford sucks around our hero #7!

yeah, i was gonna apologize to john but i was pretty sure he's not reading my post. there's always an exception to a rule. yeah. stanford sucks.

[Drek]

no rookie is going to help you win now - you FA for the holes you need now, and draft for the future. You ever look at the Patriots roster? 3 superbowls in 4 years says you're wrong about only drafting for the future.

1st day should be all guys who can make an impact within two or three seasons. 1st round should be a guy who's challenging to start, or at least 2nd on the depth chart, his first year. The second day you take projects and draft for future depth.

A 1st round OL would be foolish in my opinion. We're set at tackle (Lepsis won't be leaving, the FO likes him too much), and you should never draft OGs in round 1. If we want Baas we should trade the first down to a early 2nd plus pick up an extra pick for the trouble.

In the first round this year I'd prefer to see us either add depth to the DL, go after Brodney Pool, or get a CB who can challenge Walls and Middlebrooks from day one (prefer the first two significantly). WR is worth considering if we can trade up to get a real stud, but I don't see that happening.

[TheReverend]

i have to admit i was wrong on Foster, i wanted Harris instead. Glad Shanny was right on that one. George has alot of talent, he is just scratching the surface.

Come on, guys. Are we serious talking about offensive line like it's a problem, has been a problem or ever will be a problem? Shannahan has done a fantastic job with our offensive line since he came to town (just ask our myriad of 1,000+ rushers), so why not continue to let him work that magic, and all of us can go about arguing if we should take a CB, S (TD or Brodney Pool) or WR with our first round pick. I say if TD is available we jump on that. The management is high on PJ Alexander and with our O-line record... I'll trust em. Now, pass rush and causing turn-overs on the other hand... there's a suggestion.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I thought this was the year he moves to left tackle? Things not going as planned, guys? LOL

[Rock Chalk]

I will give props where props are due and Taco deserves some props on this one.

He called Foster as the #1 pick that year and no one...NO ONE believed him.

Of course, there is that one theory blind squirrells and all...

[Rock Chalk]

I thought this was the year he moves to left tackle? Things not going as planned, guys? LOL
You haven't shot yourself yet?

[watermock]

i have to admit i was wrong on Foster, i wanted Harris instead. Glad Shanny was right on that one. George has alot of talent, he is just scratching the surface.

I will add to that but qualify myself. I felt we could of traded down and still gotten Foster because of his limited work at Georgia, mostly at RT, and a nasty wrist injury. As many might know, a tackle has to use his hands more than any other position. I also said he projected better at RT, which, guess what, is where he is. I would be dissapointed if we moved him to LT right when he's finally coming around. Leave him where he is, he can be moved later if he has to be. The way Jake loves to roll out, I'm more than happy to have Foster sealing off those rollouts. Lepsis was solid if not spectacular. House can back him up this year.

I'm not at all against taking Barnes to groom as a future LT, but this talk of Bass is crazy. No way we will take a guard at #1, and noone else will either, at least till the very end of the round. We can pick up a nice, smaller guard that fits in our system just fine with one of our conditionals, and if Barnes is there in the first round, I wouldn't argue, because we could stick him in at guard then groom him at left. Please, leave Foster where he is. He's more of a natural RT, and besides, lets get him resigned before we move him to LT anyway, but I'm happy to leave at RT where he is more comfortable. Again, I like the protection he can give Jake on those rollouts. Lepsis can scrap on the opposite side in the melee. Lepsis is very underrated and was a classic developmental success.

:redbutt:

[BroncoInferno]

Yep, I remember all the people whining about not getting Harris because Mel Kiper had him rated higher on his Big Board. ::) Harris has been god awful for Frisco. Glad Shanny knew what he was doing. It's hard to question him on OL and RB.

[watermock]

SF has more problems than LT. And remember Foster was given RT after a year. It wasn't just Kiper that had Harris rated over Foster, so don't even assert it. Harris got thrown in at LT on a horrible team that was just plain bad.

I predicted them to win 2 games. If they wern't in the weak NFC West, they could of lost all 16, so save it.

[Odysseus]

i have to admit i was wrong on Foster, i wanted Harris instead. Glad Shanny was right on that one. George has alot of talent, he is just scratching the surface.

Too many posters post crap and never own up to it. Too many times people say crap and never back it up or worst won't fess up when they were wrong. This is what makes you a top notch quality poster.

I am assuming the check is already in the mail?

I like the idea of picking up an OLT that play guard for a couple of years. I like keeping Lepsis and having solid rotation. Carswell can't back up Lepsis forever and Foster should stay on the right side. I personally don't see anything wrong with being able to run the ball all day.

Shanny does great on the first day. I wouldn't mind a CB, WR, or DL either but in fairness I want the best player that we can draft.

[BroncoInferno]

SF has more problems than LT. And remember Foster was given RT after a year. It wasn't just Kiper that had Harris rated over Foster, so don't even assert it. Harris got thrown in at LT on a horrible team that was just plain bad.

I predicted them to win 2 games. If they wern't in the weak NFC West, they could of lost all 16, so save it.

Harris can still control whether or not his individual performance is credible, can he not? He's been awful, regardless of SFs other problems. A veritable leaky faucet. Foster has clearly been the better player so far. Why can't you admit you were wrong in wanting Harris over Foster?

[TheReverend]

Who cares? If Shanny cut all our O-lineman and replaced them with a synchronized swim team, due to his past record in this area, I'd keep my mouth shut until it was unsuccessful.

[Odysseus]

Who cares? If Shanny cut all our O-lineman and replaced them with a synchronized swim team, due to his past record in this area, I'd keep my mouth shut until it was unsuccessful.

AMEN! Preach!

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Foster and Lepsis both played very well. I think towards the end of the season Foster was playing very well. Lepsis did better at the LT position than at RT, so we need to keep him next year when FA hits.

As it stands now the main issue is OL depth. Our starting 5 is very good, with Carlisle being the weakest point at present. Still he played well enough last year that I don't think he is a majro concern. Behind these guys we don't have anybody right now. An injury along the Oline would be devastating for us right now because of our lack of depth.

Absolutely correct. Both Lepsis and Foster played very well last year and will be better next year. Lepsis has a few good years left and will renegotiate every year as he fits the Denver system well.

Gotta find a replacement for Carlisle. He is passive and lets the rusher come to him on passing downs which allows the defender to get their hands up and tip passes and he is not a power blocker on the run. I think this can be addressed with a FA signing after June cuts. Also need to develop some depth at bot OG and OT.

[labronco]

Foster played ok last year IMO, not great, but well enough. Since it was only his 1st year starting, he should be improved this year, hopefully. Since we have some dead money coming off the books next year why not try to resign Lepsis unless he is asking for way to much. He outplayed everybody on the o-line last year. I'm all for drafting some OL, but not in the 1st and 2nd. I say we use our 2 3'rds to get some OL depth.

i disagree. foster IMO did great last year. he'll get better this year barring injury. he'll replace Lepsis in 2 yrs, and we'll use another first in a couple of years for another giant tackle. we are good right now as far as OL is concerned. But this, in turn, will resolve our woes in redzone offense and we will finally have the dominant OL.

[TheDave]

I'm not at all against taking Barnes to groom as a future LT, but this talk of Bass is crazy. No way we will take a guard at #1, and noone else will either, at least till the very end of the round.


Yeah because that worked out so poorly for the Steelers who drafted Alan Faneca in 1997 with #26...4 pro-bowls later i'm sure their real bummed they wasted that #1 pick. This would be a sure fire pick, a day 1 starter, an instant boost to our red zone issues, and would help secure our line for a decade. Having said that we will probably reach for an undersized corner with"upside"

No if you would excuse me i have to continue Spamming Dove Valley with with this idea.... :)

[labronco]

Yeah because that worked out so poorly for the Steelers who drafted Alan Faneca in 1997 with #26...4 pro-bowls later i'm sure their real bummed they wasted that #1 pick. This would be a sure fire pick, a day 1 starter, an instant boost to our red zone issues, and would help secure our line for a decade. Having said that we will probably reach for an undersized corner with"upside"

No if you would excuse me i have to continue Spamming Dove Valley with with this idea.... :)

i don't know, dave. you keep talkin' n gettin' soft spot for guards now.
maybe he'll last till second round?

[longtimer]

no rookie is going to help you win now - you FA for the holes you need now, and draft for the future.
.REP well said

[azbroncfan]

Speaking of OL, if we want some depth we really should offer Dan Niel a 2 year deal. Something just slightly over veteran minimum with a tiny SB. I know the guy is old and his knees are FUBAR, but he's a warrior, and knows our system. If he didn't have to play all the snaps he could probably last all year. If anything he could help the new guys coming in.
Neil signed with DET.

[DBroncos4life]

Neil signed with DET.


No they signed Rick DeMulling instead.

[azbroncfan]

No they signed Rick DeMulling instead.
My bad I thought they inked Neil and Demulling.

[Taco John]

I thought this was the year he moves to left tackle? Things not going as planned, guys? LOL



I'd ignore your ignorance on this topic except that you're busting on my boy Foster and trying to make him out to be less than he is... There's nothing wrong with Foster. Things are going exactly as planned. Plummer was one of the least sacked quarterbacks in the league last year.

Besides, what in the world gave you the idea that Foster was going to be moved to the left side this year? Coaches have never said anything like that. All indications have been that they expected Lepsis to step up in the role... and he did. Foster's path will likely take one similar to Lepsis. Eventually Lepsis is going to go, and the Broncos will need a LT. Rather than having to blow big cheddar on some free agent, it'll be easier to move Foster to the LT spot and then find someone for RT.

Things are going *exactly* as planned.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'd ignore your ignorance on this topic except that you're busting on my boy Foster and trying to make him out to be less than he is... There's nothing wrong with Foster. Things are going exactly as planned. Plummer was one of the least sacked quarterbacks in the league last year.

Besides, what in the world gave you the idea that Foster was going to be moved to the left side this year? Coaches have never said anything like that. All indications have been that they expected Lepsis to step up in the role... and he did. Foster's path will likely take one similar to Lepsis. Eventually Lepsis is going to go, and the Broncos will need a LT. Rather than having to blow big cheddar on some free agent, it'll be easier to move Foster to the LT spot and then find someone for RT.

Things are going *exactly* as planned.

Eric Hicks loves George Foster.

[Taco John]

Eric Hicks loves George Foster.


No one wants to read about Eric Hick's gay fantasies here...

[Clockwork Orange]

Eric Hicks loves George Foster.

And we love Eric Hicks. Please give him another contract extension. Please. :pray:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Hicks beat Foster for a sack last year. I guess you guys have lower standards when it comes to offensive tackles.

[labronco]

who's eric hicks? is it erica hicks? foster's girl?

[Clockwork Orange]

Hicks beat Foster for a sack last year. I guess you guys have lower standards when it comes to offensive tackles.

WOW! He beat a 1st year tackle for one sack in two meetings! How dominant!

Get that contract extension ready! Go!

[labronco]

Hicks beat Foster for a sack last year. I guess you guys have lower standards when it comes to offensive tackles.

a chiefs fan talking about "standards!" Hilarious!

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Hicks beat Foster for a sack last year. I guess you guys have lower standards when it comes to offensive tackles.

Whoa!?!?! A single sack!?!??!! Damn. WTF is Foster even doing on an NFL roster?

Denver gave up 15 sacks all of last year, which was the 2nd least amount in the entire league.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

WOW! He beat a 1st year tackle for one sack in two meetings! How dominant!

Get that contract extension ready! Go!

Foster wasn't a rookie last year.

Anyway, you guys can spin all you want but all I heard last year was that "the plan" was to let Foster play a season at RT before moving him to LT. Obviously that fell through because the coaching staff realizes he'd be a swinging gate at LT.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Whoa!?!?! A single sack!?!??!! Damn. WTF is Foster even doing on an NFL roster?

Denver gave up 15 sacks all of last year, which was the 2nd least amount in the entire league.

Only because Plummer can run around so well.

Of course when we have a discussion about Plummer in a week someone will throw out "imagine if he had Trent's line!"

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Only because Plummer can run around so well.


So apparently NFL QBs are not supposed to avoid sacks.

Go find a Star Wars thread to post in, this one isn't working out too well for you.

BTW, the plan was never to move Foster to LT after one year. Like Taco said, if/when Lepsis leaves, he could be moved than.

[Clockwork Orange]

Foster wasn't a rookie last year.

Anyway, you guys can spin all you want but all I heard last year was that "the plan" was to let Foster play a season at RT before moving him to LT. Obviously that fell through because the coaching staff realizes he'd be a swinging gate at LT.

Foster played the season finale in his rookie year against Green Bay when the Broncos were resting their starters. He basically sat his entire actual rookie season, last year was his first in the lineup. So yes, he was a first year tackle last year. Try and keep up.

Swinging gate? Isn't that the same thing you said about Lepsis before the season......and then the Broncos went on to give up a total of 15 sacks and paved the way for a 4000 yard passer, a 1200 yard rusher (our converted fullback) and 3 different 100 yard rushers. But yeah, they sure struggled. ::)

Again, your analysis of players ranks somewhere between moronic and braindead, but please keep 'em coming. :laugh:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Foster played the season finale in his rookie year against Green Bay when the Broncos were resting their starters. He basically sat his entire actual rookie season, last year was his first in the lineup. So yes, he was a first year tackle last year. Try and keep up.

Swinging gate? Isn't that the same thing you said about Lepsis before the season......and then the Broncos went on to give up a total of 15 sacks and paved the way for a 4000 yard passer, a 1200 yard rusher (our converted fullback) and 3 different 100 yard rushers. But yeah, they sure struggled. ::)

Again, your analysis of players ranks somewhere between moronic and braindead, but please keep 'em coming. :laugh:

So the offensive line is really good, then? I guess Plummer has no excuses now.

[Taco John]

Anyway, you guys can spin all you want but all I heard last year was that "the plan" was to let Foster play a season at RT before moving him to LT. Obviously that fell through because the coaching staff realizes he'd be a swinging gate at LT.


From who did you hear that plan? It never came from the coaches.

The only one spinning is you. You took someone's guess and applied it to your world view. You should maybe consider letting someone else do your thinking for you full time...

[Bob's your Information Minister]

From who did you hear that plan? It never came from the coaches.

The only one spinning is you. You took someone's guess and applied it to your world view. You should maybe consider letting someone else do your thinking for you full time...

So Lepsis is better than Foster?

[Taco John]

So the offensive line is really good, then? I guess Plummer has no excuses now.


Since when was our offensive line bad? We've had our shortcomings, no doubt. But last year was probably the most cohesive unit we've had since 1999.

[Taco John]

So Lepsis is better than Foster?

Lepsis is more experienced than Foster, if that's what you mean. Lepsis has been in the league a long time, and knows the Broncos blocking scheme better than almost anyone on that line. Foster, on the other hand, was a first year starter last year.

[Clockwork Orange]

So the offensive line is really good, then? I guess Plummer has no excuses now.

Who's making excuses for Plummer? I thought this was about Foster?

Foster was a part of the O-line, the O-line performed well last year, the results bear that out. If you don't believe me, look it up.

You don't do that with a "swinging gate" at either tackle. Foster played just fine for someone getting his first taste of real NFL game experience. There's no need for the Broncos to rush him to LT because that spot is filled for one more year, one more year for him to gain experience and improve before he's trusted with his QB's blindside. Lepsis' will likely be a free agent next year and his replacement is being groomed as we speak. Same with Nalen, he'll likely be gone next year and his replacement, Ben Hamilton, is already here and ready to move in to the spot.

That's why so many people are calling for the Broncos to draft a guard in round 1 (myself included), it'll be a position of need next year when Hamilton vacates his guard spot to move back to center.

[Taco John]

Calling Foster a "swinging gate" is empty smack. Basically, you could say that about any linemen if your sole intention of the discussion was to berate a player who you really don't have any idea about. Take your stabs in the dark. It won't change a thing.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Who's making excuses for Plummer? I thought this was about Foster? .

Everytime during the season that Plummer was criticised, the normal response was "Oh yeah! Well maybe if he had more than two seconds to throw!"

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Calling Foster a "swinging gate" is empty smack. Basically, you could say that about any linemen if your sole intention of the discussion was to berate a player who you really don't have any idea about. Take your stabs in the dark. It won't change a thing.

It takes a special kind of offensive lineman to give up a sack to Eric Hicks.

[Taco John]

Everytime during the season that Plummer was criticised, the normal response was "Oh yeah! Well maybe if he had more than two seconds to throw!"



Point out these idiots. Name names. I was probably laughing at them then too...

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Point out these idiots. Name names. I was probably laughing at them then too...

I guess I was misinformed...

[SoCalBronco]

Bob, go play with your little lightsaber or something.

[Taco John]

It takes a special kind of offensive lineman to give up a sack to Eric Hicks.


If you want me to tell you that Eric Hicks sucks, why didn't you just say so?

[Clockwork Orange]

Everytime during the season that Plummer was criticised, the normal response was "Oh yeah! Well maybe if he had more than two seconds to throw!"

That a lie and you know it. You've been proven wrong for the 8 millionth time and now you're reeeally reaching.

[chanesaw]

Even if we don't draft a guard we have young talent being groomed. Clabo is in NFLE, Alexander has been on the roster a while, Snell and Sewell are also on the PS.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

That a lie and you know it. You've been proven wrong for the 8 millionth time and now you're reeeally reaching.

That's the way I remember it, sorry. Following the same line of thought, I've heard "If Plummer had Trent's line he'd be amazing," more times than I care to on this BB.

[Taco John]

I guess I was misinformed...



Or you just made it up. I don't remember anyone really trying to blame the offensive line for Plummer's troubles. I've heard receivers blamed. I've heard running backs blamed. I don't remember reading many (if any) complaints about the offensive line. If there were, I'd have been in those threads arguing the loudest for these guys. Like I said... They were probably the most cohesive unit we've had since 99...


...though I will say this... Their strength is in their run blocking, not in holding a pocket together for an extended period of time. They can hold the pocket for as long as the play is designed for, but if Plummer hasn't gotten rid of the ball by that time, this is where we run into problems.

[Clockwork Orange]

That's the way I remember it, sorry. Following the same line of thought, I've heard "If Plummer had Trent's line he'd be amazing," more times than I care to on this BB.

A lot of QB's would look amazing behind TrINT's O-line. Take it as a compliment, you've got a great O-line.

I shudder to think what someone like PayMeATon would do with that line in front of him.

[TheDave]

A lot of QB's would look amazing behind TrINT's O-line. Take it as a compliment, you've got a great O-line.

I shudder to think what someone like PayMeATon would do with that line in front of him.

You mean it could actually get worse than the last 2 playoff games... ugh!~

[Clockwork Orange]

You mean it could actually get worse than the last 2 playoff games... ugh!~

We wouldn't be alone, it would get worse for the rest of the NFL.

I bet they could go an entire season without allowing a sack.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Yes sir...look at that great RT:

http://img114.exs.cx/img114/1876/hickssack3rf.gif

And upon further review...Matt Lepsis is giving it up like a prom date, too.

[Ray Finkle]

Yes sir...look at that great RT:

http://img114.exs.cx/img114/1876/hickssack3rf.gif

And upon further review...Matt Lepsis is giving it up like a prom date, too.


one play neither makes or breaks ones career...

[Bob's your Information Minister]

one play neither makes or breaks ones career...

Tell that to Earnest Byner...

[Ray Finkle]

Tell that to Earnest Byner...


yeah because he really went on to suck with the Skins and Ravens...

[baja]

i have to admit i was wrong on Foster, i wanted Harris instead. Glad Shanny was right on that one. George has alot of talent, he is just scratching the surface.

You are wrong about Gold too. I'll bet he has at least 5 sacks

[Rock Chalk]

Tell that to Earnest Byner...
Didnt Byner get two superbowl rings after his "fumble"? :kiddingme

[Ray Finkle]

Didnt Byner get two superbowl rings after his "fumble"? :kiddingme


Yep....

[SoCalBronco]

You are wrong about Gold too. I'll bet he has at least 5 sacks

He had 6.5 in 2002 Baja and still didnt have a "great" year. He will have many tackles just because he is on the weakside i anticipate that, but i still dont think he will have a great year. Also the success of the Gold reacquisition does not depend solely on Ian's play. If he has a good year, and D.J. has a good year, i wont be wrong at all. We would essentially have a decline from great to good on the weakside and an increase from average to good on the strongside, so its a wash. A wash isnt worth 8.5 million up front. For the deal to be a success, both Gold and D.J. must have GREAT years (now how we arrive at that, thats the question).

[Sprout]

http://img114.exs.cx/img114/1876/hickssack3rf.gif

And upon further review...Matt Lepsis is giving it up like a prom date, too.

Wrong. Lepsis kept his man moving downfield, and didn't give up a step toward the inside until Plummer was gone. If Foster had held up, that would have been a fine pocket.

[SoCalBronco]

welcome to the board, Sprout. :)

[Sprout]

welcome to the board, Sprout. :)

Thanks, SoCal. I've lurked for a while, but just signed up to reply to Bob. When do we get to tell him he was owned by a skinny soccer player?

[Mr. Trout]

Yes sir...look at that great RT:

http://img114.exs.cx/img114/1876/hickssack3rf.gif

And upon further review...Matt Lepsis is giving it up like a prom date, too.

Man bob is thorough..sporting actual video..not just talk

[watermock]

Welcome, Well fed Grasshopper...

[labronco]

Man bob is thorough..sporting actual video..not just talk

oh, i thought you said man boob is thorough. bob shows his colors. i'll give him that.

[baja]

He had 6.5 in 2002 Baja and still didnt have a "great" year. He will have many tackles just because he is on the weakside i anticipate that, but i still dont think he will have a great year. Also the success of the Gold reacquisition does not depend solely on Ian's play. If he has a good year, and D.J. has a good year, i wont be wrong at all. We would essentially have a decline from great to good on the weakside and an increase from average to good on the strongside, so its a wash. A wash isnt worth 8.5 million up front. For the deal to be a success, both Gold and D.J. must have GREAT years (now how we arrive at that, thats the question).

Don't forget what a great special teams player Ian is and there is the consideration of the havoc Gold will play as a QB spy not to mention some think your guy DJ will be even better as a SAM. For sure he will run step for step with any TE in the West as he will face some good ones. I love our D and it is today.

[TheReverend]

Yes sir...look at that great RT:

http://img114.exs.cx/img114/1876/hickssack3rf.gif

And upon further review...Matt Lepsis is giving it up like a prom date, too.

George gets beat once... everyone makes mistakes... and Lepsis is washing him out. What concerns me is Neil's inability to pick up Hicks after Plummer steps up to avoid the sack and even more so, Neil's ability to place his thumb in his @$$. Oh well, hes gone now.

[Mr. Trout]

George gets beat once... everyone makes mistakes... and Lepsis is washing him out. What concerns me is Neil's inability to pick up Hicks after Plummer steps up to avoid the sack and even more so, Neil's ability to place his thumb in his @$$. Oh well, hes gone now.


funny stuff...hopefully the queefs don't get any sacks on us next year.

[Taco John]

And upon further review...Matt Lepsis is giving it up like a prom date, too.



Whatever... That about shoots any credibilty you had to discuss offensive line performance. I'd ask you just where you fault the job that Lepsis did, but the true answer is, "he put on a Broncos jersey."

[wabbit]

Lepsis graded out beyond team expectations at LT last year...so much so, the decision was made to make his move to the position permanent...well, as permanent as any job is in the NFL these days.

You're way, way off-base here 'Bob

Foster also exceeded developmental expectations. Shanahan will likely tout him as Pro Bowl material this year.

The decision to draft him was the right one after all...especially so when you consider so many folks thought Denver was nuts for passing on the more polished (&healthy) Kwame Harris.

[watermock]

Lepsis did fine for an undrafted draft choice/TE/RT/LT.

I saw solid play out of Lepsis last year. Granted, he wasn't dominant, but Good Lord. He's the Rod Smith of development. That's the key! He is the prototype of how to develop a player.

So is Hamilton. They have to buy into the system. Hamilton is so undersized but is so much like Nalen and Neil it's scary. I am all for getting another scrappy guard in round 3.

I want to tell you people, Mock is getting pretty excited about "the plan" right now.

We need to get another vet CB after June 1, another OL. If C. Brown can bring it, we will have a dominant line. Let him heal...let him heal...Oh man, I am so pumped.

Williams, Wilson and Gold at LB behind Brown, Warren Davis and Pryce?

Bring in one more vet corner after June 1.

If the Pryce rumors are true, I was hoping for no more than 5 million. 5.2 is cool.

Let's go Broncos!

[Taco John]

I wish we could bust the Chiefs by offering a third for Surtain, and have Miami accept the offer just to spite the idiots... Of course, that's just a pipe dream, and we'd probably have trouble making it work cap-wise... But still...

[wabbit]

That would be fun...IF we had the cap room

I suspect the Chiefs will be going through the same machinations we just experienced with Pryce in a year or two.

Should be fun

[watermock]

If we sign Pryce, we are so hard on the cap we just shiver at this point.

[Taco John]

That would be fun...IF we had the cap room

I suspect the Chiefs will be going through the same machinations we just experienced with Pryce in a year or two.

Should be fun



I hear that. I have been a Roaf fan for as long as I can remember, but even Superman can't hold out forever. It's a damn shame that he's not being retired fondly here in Denver, where he wanted to be... That's one move that I'll never forgive Shanahan for botching. Twice a year, we get reminded about this huge blunder. I hope it plauges Coach in his sleep.

:gripe:

[bpc]

Three people that should have been in Denver...

1. Rodney Harrison- The guy was practically beating down our door to get back at the Chargers. Here we are, two super bowls later.
2. William Roaf- Injuries caused us to pass on trading a 2nd rounder for this guy or something to that effect... wha, wha, whatttttt? Priest Holmes is very good, however when Roaf joined that line, he and the OL as a unit became great.
3. Donnie Edwards- Great undersized player and all he does is big plays.

[watermock]

Willie Roaf:..one move that I'll never forget or forgive Shanahan for botching.

Calm down Taco, you know I was with you on this one that got away for no reason....

What do you think of Barnes if he's there?

[fontaine]

Calm down Taco, you know I was with you on this one that got away for no reason....

What do you think of Barnes if he's there?

It's funny how the same people that keep harping on about how they wanted Roaf brought here, never, ever remind us how they wanted Kyle Turley to be brought in here as well who was available for a 3rd after we missed out on Roaf.

Yeah, that Kyle Turley would have been great.

Never underestimate the power of selective memory I guess.

[Taco John]

I like Turley's fire, but I don't remember being very vocal about getting him. I've always been comfortable with Foster. I haven't always been comfortable with Lepsis at LT though. But after last year, it's hard to find anything bad to say about the guy. He flat played the position.

That still doesn't inspire forgiveness in me for the Roaf blunder. We flat missed that one, and a division rival got stronger out of the deal. It's a sad day when the likes of Carl Peterson get's the best of you.

[fontaine]

I like Turley's fire, but I don't remember being very vocal about getting him.


I know, that's why I quoted Watermock and not you.

That still doesn't inspire forgiveness in me for the Roaf blunder. We flat missed that one, and a division rival got stronger out of the deal. It's a sad day when the likes of Carl Peterson get's the best of you.

Yes we did miss out, no doubt about it. But Roaf was sporting a pretty messed knee and wasn't healthy until the season started when KC traded for him. Would you give up a 3rd rounder for an aging LT with a gimpy knee that won't allow him to go full speed until the start of the season, especially considering how complex the Broncos zone blocking system is if you're AlexGibbs/Shanahan? The whole thing is contingent on total synchronicity between the OL and that takes months of preparation to begin to learn.

In retrospect, ofcourse we should have signed him because the move turned out great.

But you never hear posters like watermock mention how badly they wanted Kyle Turley who had questions surrounding him, when they bring up how they missed out on Roaf.

[bpc]

The only time I absolutely hated Lepsis was when Justin Smith was actually looking like an NFL playing as he basically sacked Jake 3 times to end the game against the Bengals.

One game though, and Lepsis was playing basically a new position. You'll see him get more and more comfortable as time goes on.

I've actually really like Kalif Barnes for awhile. In my first mock draft, I had us taking him.

Couple things with this. Lepsis might be here in the future. His contract is void after this year if I recall correctly. Foster can play tackle. Foster is big and mobile enough to play guard. I'm not against taking Barnes and moving him into RT and having Foster playing guard next to him with Lepsis manning the LT spot. I think Barners and Foster are both athletic enough to eventually play LT if needed. I'm all about bringing talent in on the offensive line.

The best part about bringing Pryce back to compliment our other DL aquisitions is that we dont' HAVE to draft any one position right off the bat. If Barnes is there and we like him, take a chance.

[Taco John]

Would you give up a 3rd rounder for an aging LT with a gimpy knee that won't allow him to go full speed until the start of the season, especially considering how complex the Broncos zone blocking system is?

Hell yeah I would have. We saved that pick and used it on Dorsett Davis.




But you never hear posters like watermock mention how badly they wanted Kyle Turley who had questions surrounding him, when they bring up how they missed out on Roaf.


Well I think Turley is a very good RT who could be a rock at that position for the Rams for a long time, attitude notwithstanding.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=4150&highlight=Turley



???

[Odysseus]

I desperately wanted Roaf here and was pretty vocal about it. When Shanny panned it I just let it go. It's amazing what sticks in your craw sometimes and what doesn't.

I say keep Lepsis until the wheel fall off but draft a guy who can start OG and eventually play OLT. That position takes awhile to groom. That would make sense first round next year. We need to bring Neil back for one more go round.

I think we need CB/KR or WR/TE. I like Clayton but the more I think about finding a big target (Matt Jones) I kind of wonder (Matt Jones) who would be out there (Matt Jones) that has some possibilities (Matt Jones) but I can't think of anyone (Matt Jones) right off hand.

[watermock]

Quote me all you want. The fact is both were ranked around the same, but Turley had more baggage, and got the back injury.

As a matter of fact, I would of taken Turley or Roaf honestly. Both went under market due to injury.

Turley had a legitimate injury. I can't blame him for hiding it, and as a matter of fact, I wanted Roaf, and Turley was the second choice. I think you will notice that Turley dressed down the coach for crap just last year. This is 3 years ago now isn't it? So what point are you trying to make? The fact that I might of wanted Turley at tackle? So what.

See, that is the wonderfull thing about stupidity. Once somthing is gone, I can go past it. The point of the matter is the argument right THEN. To sit there and try to tell me how the world spins three years later is hillrious and pathetic. It's just like me telling everyone Ken Bell was going to be the next LT.

That's your problem, you don't have the balls to make any predictions at all. I predict David Terrell will become a decent reciever for New England, a big possesion reciever we yearn for. But I am willing to make that remark.

Let me ask you this. When have you put your ass on the line predicting just one player Fontaine?

Go sit in the corner till you name me one. Any fool can look 20/20, but it takes balls to look forward.

I don't have to name names or take prisoners. If you really want to go into it, both Roaf and Turley have been fine tackles for the Chefs and the Rams. So exactly is the point there genius? Turley didn't cost any more than IHOP now did he, and at least he didnt' bust his hand on a skull or lie that his back was done.

So tell me this. If we would of bet on Turley instead of IHOP wouldn't we still be ahead at this point?

I am ready to play this game.

[fontaine]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fontaine

But you never hear posters like watermock mention how badly they wanted Kyle Turley who had questions surrounding him, when they bring up how they missed out on Roaf.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fontaine
Well I think Turley is a very good RT who could be a rock at that position for the Rams for a long time, attitude notwithstanding.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showth...ighlight=Turley
???

Nice try.

But you're sidestepping the point of my argument:

It's funny how the same people that keep harping on about how they wanted Roaf brought here, never, ever remind us how they wanted Kyle Turley to be brought in here as well who was available for a 3rd after we missed out on Roaf.

I don't keep mentioning about how we missed out on Roaf (and then totally not mention the mistake Kyle Turley would have been)

It was what 4 years ago? I got over it, some people clearly have not.

[fontaine]

That's your problem, you don't have the balls to make any predictions at all. I predict David Terrell will become a decent reciever for New England, a big possesion reciever we yearn for. But I am willing to make that remark.

Let me ask you this. When have you put your ass on the line predicting just one player Fontaine?


I'll ignore the rest of your tripe in that post and just respond to this.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=592398#post592398
Stephen Alexander will catch more TDs than David Turdell this year and blocks better.

I've already said numerous times I don't think Brown makes it past week 4 healthy:
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=589872#post589872
The next thing that'll happen is Brown will get himself on IR earlier than usual because he'll log more snaps without Pryce on the scene.

You actually quoted this and agreed with me what two days ago. I guess you forgot.
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=592303&highlight=fontaine#post592303
It doesn't matter if Plummer learns Shanahan's WCO offense for three years or thirty years: He won't be as good as he was in his first year here with Rod/Sharpe/Portis, until he has reliable targets again because he's not good enough to do it himself.

And that's just in the past couple of days.

[watermock]

How amusing I have your goat so bad.

First, I'm on record for thinking we should of tried to sign David Terrell. BTW, Alexander is another really good TE that has struggled with injury.

If you want to play the game who will catch more TD's, have at it. Just asserting I am wrong is kinda pathetic. There is no guarantee either will make the roster. I'll take the bet.

Also, when I said Pryce wouldn't be on the scene, that was a week ago. So you assume he is, and WTF do you have to say anything changes IF HE IS?

Since Pryce is on the scene, doesn't that make the argument moot, or am I missing somthing.

The last comment is regaring Plummer. If you ****ing remember, I said that Plummer had a problem with interceptions, and was a major road hazard. Got it yet dumbass? He threw 20 last year, leading the NFL!

But I don't know what I am talking about!

That's fine. I assume your a female, because your logic is totally emotional. I have not really paid much attention other than your always on my ass. The fact is I know what I am talking about a scientific mean of at least more than a hysterical biatch.

[fontaine]

The last comment is regaring Plummer. If you ****ing remember, I said that Plummer had a problem with interceptions, and was a major road hazard. Got it yet dumbass? He threw 20 last year, leading the NFL!

But I don't know what I am talking about!


What an insight! Plummer has a problem with interceptions.

That's fine. I assume your a female, because your logic is totally emotional. I have not really paid much attention other than your always on my ass. The fact is I know what I am talking about a scientific mean of at least more than a hysterical biatch.

In this case, when you assume you're only making an a$$ out of you and not me.

[watermock]

Says you!

Just to remind our audience, My reservations about Plummer was the fact that he had a propencity to throw interceptions. I didn't know he could throw them left handed.

Biatch! Things usually don't be said but in this instance, it's just too funny.

It's not really your fault. You have always thought you knew something about football, and have taken great pride in it.

The funny thing is, men are so enamoured of it, they will accept women that try so hard. So try harder.

[fontaine]

Says you!

Just to remind our audience, My reservations about Plummer was the fact that he had a propencity to throw interceptions. I didn't know he could throw them left handed.

No kidding, Plummer has a propencity to throw ints. Good for you, even a blind monkey with half a brain could have figured that out.
(I think that analogy is quite apt in your case, don't you?)

[watermock]

Well, certain people pointed that out when he was signed didn't they dear.

[fontaine]

Well, certain people pointed that out when he was signed didn't they dear.

The blind monkey with half a brain or was he banned from OrangeMane at the time?

(sorry, I know that was a lowblow)
:)

[watermock]

Of course, because we had a "system QB", that problem would go away, right?

[watermock]

How many INT's would Plummer throw if he WASN'T a system QB? Didn't we see his ability to read defenses with his lob to Rod Smith for an INT? Do you think the reigns or off this year?

We had the damn game won. Hand it off to Droughns...oops, he's traded, and the game is salted with less than a minute to go.

Nope, He audibles, throws up a duck and game over.

You were saying?

[watermock]

Even better....hand it off to Q two years ago when the game was won.

Or even better, hand it off to Portis so he twists his knee.

Our redzone sucks salty balls, period.

I'm amused when people slam me about the great white Hape.

Fact of the matter is you strike hard if you have a passing game. I'm not even going to go into redzone stats on offense. It's near the bottom of the league. I like Kubiak, but "In Hape We Trust" at the 1 isn't exactly going to cut it.

[watermock]

The blind monkey with half a brain or was he banned from OrangeMane at the time?

(sorry, I know that was a lowblow)
:)

I don't take exception, but my Egyptian Mau is getting upset...He's starting on the Altoids and next thing you know, he's moving up to catnip....

[bloodsunday]

1st day should be all guys who can make an impact within two or three seasons. 1st round should be a guy who's challenging to start, or at least 2nd on the depth chart, his first year.
That is exactly what I have been trying to say. The Broncos have a habit of picking "projects" in the first round, when they should be selecting Pro Bowlers. There have been some good first round picks, but there was a tough stretch their in the early 90's. And those guys should be the conerstones of the franchise right now.

[bloodsunday]

Come on, guys. Are we serious talking about offensive line like it's a problem, has been a problem or ever will be a problem? Shannahan has done a fantastic job with our offensive line since he came to town (just ask our myriad of 1,000+ rushers)
See this is where I think perception is not aligned with reality. Yes we churn out 1,000 rushers every season, no one can argue with that. The problem is that the line is not nearly as effective at everything else notably, pass blocking and power run blocking. Last year we struggled to run effectively in the red zone and to pick up short yardage first downs. On top of that, too many times I see Jake throwing the ball with a guy in his face after 4 steps on a 5 step drop. I know Jake is mobile, but if he is going to be an effective pocket passer, they must be more effective pass blocking.

There is no doubt that KC and Indy (at least in part) dominate offensively because of their offensive lines. KC has marginal skill position players, but Trent Green and the WR are provided the opportunity to get open by a dominant o-line. If we are going to be a dominant offense again, we need to hang our hat on more than 1,000 yard rushers.

[bloodsunday]

Yeah because that worked out so poorly for the Steelers who drafted Alan Faneca in 1997 with #26...4 pro-bowls later i'm sure their real bummed they wasted that #1 pick. This would be a sure fire pick, a day 1 starter, an instant boost to our red zone issues, and would help secure our line for a decade.
Yes! The idea of just ignoring players because of their position is stupid. If the guy can play, is rated highly, and fits a need, what's the f*ing problem? Sure, I'd like the Broncos to take Bass in the second round instead, but he won't be there when we draft at the end of the second round. If they can work a deal to move down, then maybe that's better.

The only reasons that this guy is not rated more highly are his position and his unimpressive workouts. The draft has become an exercise for workout warriors, not football players. Bass can play ball and would start game 1 for us.

Having said that we will probably reach for an undersized corner with"upside"
Or maybe we'll take Matt Jones and wait 3 years for him to learn a new position.

I couldn't agree with this post more. This team needs starters, now! David Baas would cost us much less at #25 than any FA.

[bloodsunday]

Even if we don't draft a guard we have young talent being groomed. Clabo is in NFLE, Alexander has been on the roster a while, Snell and Sewell are also on the PS.
It shouldn't take 4 or 5 years to develop a lineman. These guys are at best fringe NFL players. We are talking about taking a sure fire starter in the first round, not a guy that we have to send to NFL Europe and cross our fingers that he develops.

[bloodsunday]

That's the way I remember it, sorry. Following the same line of thought, I've heard "If Plummer had Trent's line he'd be amazing," more times than I care to on this BB.
It must be nice to sit here and throw stones all day. If I recall, your team was 7 - 9 last year. I can't recall the last time your team was a threat in the post season. I CAN recall that every time you get home field advantage you lose in the 1st round -- like when we stomped you on the way to a Super Bowl win.

No wonder KC fans like Eddie Kennison. As long as you have your five minutes, then life is good. Who needs the big picture, right?

[Odysseus]

It shouldn't take 4 or 5 years to develop a lineman. These guys are at best fringe NFL players. We are talking about taking a sure fire starter in the first round, not a guy that we have to send to NFL Europe and cross our fingers that he develops.

See this is where I think perception is not aligned with reality. Yes we churn out 1,000 rushers every season, no one can argue with that. The problem is that the line is not nearly as effective at everything else notably, pass blocking and power run blocking. Last year we struggled to run effectively in the red zone and to pick up short yardage first downs. On top of that, too many times I see Jake throwing the ball with a guy in his face after 4 steps on a 5 step drop. I know Jake is mobile, but if he is going to be an effective pocket passer, they must be more effective pass blocking.


Agreed.

[Iowanian]

Trezelle Foster was drafted in the 1st round to be a Left T. He's playing on the Right side because he's not LT material IMO.

I've never thought much of him and I'd go as far as to say he's an Average RT...Average.

[delany]

Trezelle Foster was drafted in the 1st round to be a Left T. He's playing on the Right side because he's not LT material IMO.

I've never thought much of him and I'd go as far as to say he's an Average RT...Average.

You are comparing him to Jenkins?!?

LMAO!

[bendog]

A team can develop players at any position, but the easiest thing is to get a guy who has the smarts and speed to play offensive line, and make him stronger. Fanacea is a great player, but Brian Waters the othe all pro was a FA. Harting the pro bowl center was a high pick by Det, but Nalen ain't bad.

However, given my preferences, den would trade down to early in the second and take baas.

IMo the redzone problems have been more a shift than anything. Den ran left with Stinky and Zim then TBone. Then they shifted to a right running team behind Lepsis and Neil. Foster has the potential to be dominant. But, I think they were trying more to run left last year, with Neil hurt. hamilton's playing out of position. If they don't go for baas, here's my list.

3 Evan Mathis, G. 3rd

2 Logan Mankins, G. 3rd

1 Scott Young, G 3rd

Rob Hunt, C. 6th

ps, does WR have the biggest bust rate for #1 picks?

[chanesaw]

It shouldn't take 4 or 5 years to develop a lineman. These guys are at best fringe NFL players. We are talking about taking a sure fire starter in the first round, not a guy that we have to send to NFL Europe and cross our fingers that he develops.


4 or 5 years??? Clabo, Sewell, and Snell were all rookies last year.

[bloodsunday]

4 or 5 years??? Clabo, Sewell, and Snell were all rookies last year.
Yeah and near as I can tell, none of them are close to starting. ugh!~ What about Cooper Carlisle? He was drafted in 2000 and he is only now getting a shot. And that shot is only because we don't have a better option. The point is, the position is unsettled, let's get someone that can play.

[TheDave]

Yeah and near as I can tell, none of them are close to starting. ugh!~ What about Cooper Carlisle? He was drafted in 2000 and he is only now getting a shot. And that shot is only because we don't have a better option. The point is, the position is unsettled, let's get someone that can play.

I'm liking this guy more and more everyday...

[bendog]

eyah, but they tried Carlise at L and R tackle and he failed, LOL

I don't fault the broncs for developin gthe oline. Stinky was a development guy. It's a proven way to get guards. It's not the only way, though. I think the broncos are altering strategy on the oline. We've seen shanny target guys for GR's def scheme, then Rhodes's scheme. So, we should know that the asst coaches DO have input into personnel. The last two years, esp last, have shown that Gibbs' scheme of the ultra lt off lineman may have run it's course. I think we still want guys who can hit moving linebackers in zone blocking, but we've got to get guys who are bigger, or who at least have frames that can handle more weight. Neil being an example. He was just too short to carry more than 285 - 290.

[bloodsunday]

I don't fault the broncs for developin gthe oline. Stinky was a development guy. It's a proven way to get guards. It's not the only way, though.
I don't fault them either, I'm just saying its a big need and Baas could fill it. Stink played for Washington -- at a high-level -- before he came here. I guess he was a project in that he was injured and needed to return to form, but it wasn't like drafting a guy in the 7th round and sending him to Europe.

[bloodsunday]

I'm just saying its a big need and Baas could fill it.
Since we are projecting to next year (see the Lepsis posts), what if Nalen retires and Hamilton moves to center? All of sudden we're out two guards. Guard has to be a position of need for us this draft.

[bendog]

Stinky was developed in washington. He was an undrafted FA or low pick or something who spent time with their program and the Hogs.

I agree Baas fits a hole. He has prolly the fastest 10 yd dash time, but he doesn't have the fastest 40 time. A guy can get faster in the 10 yd, but not in the 40. A guy can get stronger. Baas also has the mentality. Baas should be a solid pro by game 8 in 05. The pick makes sense .... unless they really like Carlisle at RG. I wouldn't want to take baas in the first round though.

At 25 there should be a WR, CB or Dlineman with more atheltic ability than baas. And, but for the fact that RG is a gaping hole that went unfilled in FA, I'd think the best use of the draft would be to take one of the above 3 positions, and try and develop a guy with a later pick. But, those 3 positions seem to be filled for 05, and there doesn't appear to be that ballhawking/man cover FS in this draft, so trading down would be cool. Getting wahle or somebody would have been even cooler.

A perfect world would be trading down just far enough to get Pool and Baas.

[TheDave]

Looks like we've got some momentum here....

[labronco]

Stinky was developed in washington. He was an undrafted FA or low pick or something who spent time with their program and the Hogs.

I agree Baas fits a hole. He has prolly the fastest 10 yd dash time, but he doesn't have the fastest 40 time. A guy can get faster in the 10 yd, but not in the 40. A guy can get stronger. Baas also has the mentality. Baas should be a solid pro by game 8 in 05. The pick makes sense .... unless they really like Carlisle at RG. I wouldn't want to take baas in the first round though.

At 25 there should be a WR, CB or Dlineman with more atheltic ability than baas. And, but for the fact that RG is a gaping hole that went unfilled in FA, I'd think the best use of the draft would be to take one of the above 3 positions, and try and develop a guy with a later pick. But, those 3 positions seem to be filled for 05, and there doesn't appear to be that ballhawking/man cover FS in this draft, so trading down would be cool. Getting wahle or somebody would have been even cooler.

A perfect world would be trading down just far enough to get Pool and Baas.

linemen should not do 40's. don't even pay attention to it. useless data, just makes the big guys pull hammies in the process.

as much as i like bass, shanny will not use first on g/c prospects. it will surprise me if he does with second round pick.

sorry, dave.

[~Crash~]

A perfect world would be trading down just far enough to get Baas and Matt Jones .

[labronco]

A perfect world would be trading down just far enough to get Baas and Matt Jones .

Neither of them out of first round.

[~Crash~]

I think we need CB/KR or WR/TE. I like Clayton but the more I think about finding a big target (Matt Jones) I kind of wonder (Matt Jones) who would be out there (Matt Jones) that has some possibilities (Matt Jones) but I can't think of anyone (Matt Jones) right off hand.

LMAO Matt JonesMatt JonesMatt Jones :woowoo:

[~Crash~]

Neither of them out of first round.


Is Matt Jones climbing that fast ? dange Last I read bottom of the 2nd round on NFL networksand that was last week. 3 weeks ago some were in the 3rd round .

[labronco]

Is Matt Jones climbing that fast ? dange Last I read bottom of the 2nd round on NFL networksand that was last week. 3 weeks ago some were in the 3rd round .

everywhere i read his stock is going up exponentially. for a guy who doesn't have a position, its really crazy, but true.

[longtimer]

I think shanny pulls another Foster pick and takes :
Jeremy Parquet

Official Bio College: Southern Miss Height: 6-63/4
Position: Offensive Tackle Weight: 323
Class: Senior 40-Yard: 5.25
SCOUTING REPORT
Strengths: Excellent size and a massive frame...Good athleticism and nimble feet...Has long arms which aid him as a pass blocker...Powerful and does a solid job as a run blocker...Smart player who graduated in 3 1/2 years...A team leader and captain.
Weaknesses: Not as strong as you would like and needs to hit the weight room...Doesn't always play up to his physical ability...Inconsistent...Will improve in the running game as he gets stronger.
Notes: Prospect who has a rare blend of size and athleticism...Has a lot of potential as well as the drive to succeed and improve...May have the potential to play left tackle in the NFL.

I do not know how I would feel if he did this but I would have to give him a chance after the Foster pick has worked out.

[wabbit]

I've got to believe that anyone seriously thinking of taking Matt Jones in the first round is reaching badly.

No doubt the kid is a freak of nature, but, I think Herc was right when he implied that production will very likely fall short of expectation his first couple of years.

The possibilities are intriguing though...wow

[Mile High Shack]

I've got to believe that anyone seriously thinking of taking Matt Jones in the first round is reaching badly.

No doubt the kid is a freak of nature, but, I think Herc was right when he implied that production will very likely fall short of expectation his first couple of years.

The possibilities are intriguing though...wow

I heard him on the radio saying how much he liked talking to Denver and that Denver had talked to him a lot.....he mentioned Denver before any other teams...of course the host...wanted him to talk about St.Louis instead

I'd love Matt Jones in the 2nd round, but with all this hype, I doubt he lasts until the 2nd round late.

He has said that he will not play TE b/c gaining another 20lbs will cut down on his speed too much.

[labronco]

I heard him on the radio saying how much he liked talking to Denver and that Denver had talked to him a lot.....he mentioned Denver before any other teams...of course the host...wanted him to talk about St.Louis instead

I'd love Matt Jones in the 2nd round, but with all this hype, I doubt he lasts until the 2nd round late.

He has said that he will not play TE b/c gaining another 20lbs will cut down on his speed too much.

i never saw him play. but regardless of his crazy speed and size, if he can't throw like mike vick, i would say no thanks.

[Garcia Bronco]

Anyone else thinks Foster will be a pro-bowler soon?
Except for being picked on for the chop block last year, he did an outstanding job, I think. He stayed healthy too. I am glad that we picked Foster a couple of years ago over the other OT that got picked by SF that year (the name escapes me.)
I can't believe people at this board...at this point...don't know the difference between a cut and chop block.

[fontaine]

linemen should not do 40's. don't even pay attention to it. useless data, just makes the big guys pull hammies in the process.

as much as i like bass, shanny will not use first on g/c prospects. it will surprise me if he does with second round pick.

sorry, dave.


True enough. I think looking at the way Coop played at the end of the season he was doing just enough to fulfill the demands from the G position in Denver's zone blocking system.

He wasn't blowing people off the line of scrimmage, but he was moving well laterally, and attacking his designated zone. He even got the 2nd level a few times successfully. In other words, he doing what's asked from the Guard position here.

The success of the Guards also depends largely on how well the tackles can seal off the perimeter and Foster looks like a mauler there, so Coop should be ok for us.

But Denver should draft a G. Possibly not as high as Baas but definitely someone in the 3rd since we don't have many 2nd day picks.

[bloodsunday]

I wouldn't want to take baas in the first round though.
In an ideal world, I wouldn't either. However, if you can't move down, you'd have to consider him -- unless someone falls like Mark Clayton. You are basically picking in the second round anyway. We reached on Foster and the consensus on this board is that it was a good pick, despite being 5 picks higher.

At 25 there should be a WR, CB or Dlineman with more atheltic ability than baas.
I could live with a CB or WR if they get a quality play maker, not some guy that just has good stats and potential! Considering the amount of investment we have made in the d-line this offseason, I think it would be a horrible idea to draft d-line, unless of course a guy you don't expect falls down to you. I am not sold on Matt Roth just because "he has a good motor". I am not sure athletic ability should be a consideration as a general draft need. Obviously its a factor for certain positions, but you don't just draft an "athlete".

A perfect world would be trading down just far enough to get Pool and Baas.
Let's hope the Broncos can make something like this happen. They seem to stand around a lot and watch other teams make deals. I know they want to make deals -- they have almost made them the past 2 years.

[bloodsunday]

Is Matt Jones climbing that fast ? dange Last I read bottom of the 2nd round on NFL networksand that was last week. 3 weeks ago some were in the 3rd round .
Yes he is climbing too fast in my opinion. He is a freak of nature that is getting a lot of free publicity (ESPN). But he has no experience running routes or blocking; he is a project. If you were lucky, he could be effective in the redzone this season. I'd be suprised if he is a major factor this season. What's funny is the media and scouts learn these lessons year after year and still fall in love with guys like this. Note, he is known for having a, hum, laxidazical (sp?) attitude. In other words, he is considered lazy. Some even wonder about his passion for the game. That doesn't sound like a scenario where you want to give a guy a lot of money and then ask him to work hard to learn a new position, in my opinion.

[bloodsunday]

I think shanny pulls another Foster pick and takes :
Jeremy Parquet
Please God, don't let it happen. I will demand that Shanahan is removed from his GM duties.

[bloodsunday]

I think looking at the way Coop played at the end of the season he was doing just enough to fulfill the demands from the G position in Denver's zone blocking system.
Exactly! Just enough. Is that what this team has come to? Just because you have a good scheme, doesn't mean you can survive with marginal players as noted in our poor 3rd down conversions and poor redzone offense. I wanna get back to blowing some people off the ball!

[fontaine]

Exactly! Just enough. Is that what this team has come to? Just because you have a good scheme, doesn't mean you can survive with marginal players as noted in our poor 3rd down conversions and poor redzone offense. I wanna get back to blowing some people off the ball!

I don't think this happens in Denver. Our running plays are zone blocked so OL, particularily Guards, will always be moving laterally to a zone rather than straight in line blocking where you have to blow people off the line of scrimmage.

Foster's the only OL that comes close because he mauls his defenders once he gets his hands onto him.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a couple guards in there that can by physical and do some straight up power blocking but that means giving up lateral movement for most players.

Besides there's no way a Guard comes in and starts in his rookie year no matter how high he's picked.

[Odysseus]

At 25 there should be a WR, CB or Dlineman with more atheltic ability than baas. And, but for the fact that RG is a gaping hole that went unfilled in FA, I'd think the best use of the draft would be to take one of the above 3 positions, and try and develop a guy with a later pick. But, those 3 positions seem to be filled for 05, and there doesn't appear to be that ballhawking/man cover FS in this draft, so trading down would be cool. Getting wahle or somebody would have been even cooler.

There might a couple of FA OL players we can snag in June. I would like to see them continue focusing on both defensive and offensive lines simply because there are potential long term problems on both lines are really bad.

[bloodsunday]

Our running plays are zone blocked so OL, particularily Guards, will always be moving laterally to a zone rather than straight in line blocking where you have to blow people off the line of scrimmage...do some straight up power blocking but that means giving up lateral movement for most players.
This is the conventional wisdom, but that theory only works between the 20's. When you need short yardage or redzone blocking, you need some power. It's not a coinscidence that when you lose guys like Habib and Stink, your power running drops off. Baas has a good 10 yd time, which means he could have both the speed and power to get the job done. That is why you use a high(er) pick on a guy that has the ability to do both instead of a guy that "just fits the system."

Besides there's no way a Guard comes in and starts in his rookie year no matter how high he's picked.
Guard is one of the few places a guy could come in and play early. Sure he my need a few weeks to work into a starting role, but he could start by midseason.

[fontaine]

This is the conventional wisdom, but that theory only works between the 20's. When you need short yardage or redzone blocking, you need some power. It's not a coinscidence that when you lose guys like Habib and Stink, your power running drops off.

True enough, in the red zone, great in line blockers are a huge help. We don't really have that in coop and hamilton or Nalen really. I guess this is why Putz was taken off the field in the red zone because his blocking was poor. I wasn't impressed with Carswell either who I thought would make more of an impact as a blocking TE after he was asked to bulk up even more.

Guard is one of the few places a guy could come in and play early. Sure he my need a few weeks to work into a starting role, but he could start by midseason.

But how many (apart from Baas) could fill that role? I think Green Bay snatches him up anyway, yes in there 24th spot because they're desperate.

Why not sign someone like Lincoln Kennedy, who's a huge hombre, to veteran's minimum and substitute him in for power formations?

[bloodsunday]

But how many (apart from Baas) could fill that role? I think Green Bay snatches him up anyway, yes in there 24th spot because they're desperate.
I'm not sure about others, I have been kind of fixated on gettng Baas :) It would be interesting if Green Bay takes him, they need defensive help bad and have signed some veteran guards to help offset their losses.

You can certainly make a case for other players, but Baas is an option for me at #25 because he fills a need and adds a new dimension to our o-line. I am a HUGE believer in having strong lines (O and D). You can offset some of your weakness at skilled positions with good line play. We learned last season (with Champ) that it can't really work the other way. Football is still a game of big uglis :) Now that we have, at least on paper, addressed our d-line, I really want to see the overall level of our offensive line play improve. I know many of the players "graded out well" last year. But the results of the games and the struggles we had offensively suggest that we need to raise the overall level of play.

Why not sign someone like Lincoln Kennedy, who's a huge hombre, to veteran's minimum and substitute him in for power formations?
Isn't he retired and working for the NFL Network? Do you mean Middleton? I think that could be a decent option, but one that is short term. I think Oakland wants him back as well.

[fontaine]

I'm not sure about others, I have been kind of fixated on gettng Baas :) It would be interesting if Green Bay takes him, they need defensive help bad and have signed some veteran guards to help offset their losses.


Baas is a guy who could come in and start at some point in the season but they were saying the same thing about Vernon Carey last year. It's not that I'm opposed to picking Baas, it's just that I simply can't picture the Broncos using a first round pick on G!


Isn't he retired and working for the NFL Network? Do you mean Middleton? I think that could be a decent option, but one that is short term. I think Oakland wants him back as well.

Yeah that's him. Huge guy with a mean streak and powerful in line blocker. Can't move laterally so he should only be considered if we come up empty at the G position after the draft I guess.

[bloodsunday]

Baas is a guy who could come in and start at some point in the season but they were saying the same thing about Vernon Carey last year. It's not that I'm opposed to picking Baas, it's just that I simply can't picture the Broncos using a first round pick on G!
I agree its unlikely because we have so much faith in the "system" that is our line blocking. But, as a fan I would like to see a difference maker come in at that position. I don't want another system guy because he is cheap or because we can "develop" him. As for Carey, the draft is an inexact science, as we know. Baas grades out highly, but more importantly he played at a high level in college. I get more worried about guys like Fabian Washington, who was an okay college player but is shooting up the board because of his work out stats.

Yeah that's him. Huge guy with a mean streak and powerful in line blocker. Can't move laterally so he should only be considered if we come up empty at the G position after the draft I guess.
Agreed. He is okay as a stop gap. We are kind of in stop gap mode as a team right now, so maybe he fits.