D LINE looks solid

[Atlas]

Broncos look to have solved D-line issue

By Bill Williamson
Denver Post Staff Writer





Two weeks ago, the Broncos' defensive front was a mess.

The pundits were wondering how Denver, after the free-agent loss of Reggie Hayward and the pending departure of too-pricey Trevor Pryce, would solve its defensive line dearth. There seemed to be no easy answer.

Thanks to the fruitful trade of running back Reuben Droughns, the questions on the line might be answered. The addition of end Ebenezer Ekuban and defensive tackle Michael Myers in the trade, coupled with the recent trade for tackle Gerard Warren and the signing of end Courtney Brown, gives Denver the necessary talent and depth on the line to solve some pressing issues.

Now, the Broncos won't have to use the No. 25 overall pick in the April 23-24 draft on the defensive line if they don't want to. Now, the Broncos can go the best available player route. They can find somebody who can play right away at, say, cornerback, receiver or as a backup on the offensive line.


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Denver completed its D-line in a funny way. It did so by dealing Droughns, who they were resigned to losing and getting little back. In some circles, the thought was the Broncos would accept a low second-day pick for Droughns. Yes, a sixth- or seventh-rounder. Instead, Denver got two players who should fit into its defensive line rotation.

In the two months Droughns was on the trading block, there was little interest. Making the task of dealing Droughns more difficult was the lukewarm running back market.

Even Indianapolis and Seattle are finding it difficult to find trade partners for established stars such as Edgerrin James and Shaun Alexander.

The problem is that this year's draft, average across the board, is loaded at running back. Thus, no team was willing to give up much in return.

Basically, Denver was compensated as though Droughns were an established player, not a back with one big season.

A week ago, it seemed like Droughns was going to be back in Denver and headed for a backup role, a long holdout or eventual release.

At the NFL owners' meetings in Hawaii, on March 22, Broncos coach Mike Shanahan said Kyle Johnson, not Droughns, would head into training camp as Denver's starting fullback. Shanahan said Droughns had a place on the team but it wasn't as a starter at either running back spot.

The surplus at running back helped Denver address its lack of depth on the defensive line. Granted, neither Ekuban nor Myers will likely be Pro Bowl players. But they'll help the cause.

While Ekuban is a starter, Myers may end up being the key to the deal. With Ekuban coming off a couple of surgeries, Denver needed some insurance in the deal. Instead of taking a low-round draft pick, the Broncos asked for an established role player.

Myers will join a strong defensive tackle rotation with Warren, Monsanto Pope and Mario Fatafehi. The Broncos are now deep again on the line.

Last month it didn't seem possible. It also didn't seem possible that the Broncos would get value for Droughns.

[Atlas]

Looks like WIlliamson is the anti-Pasquarelli. I think they should both be locked into a cell and given a dozen donuts. May the fattest man wi.......errrrr....... I mean may the best man win.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Yea!! Let Denver take add another corner to a position stocked with young, relatively unproven players, or a WR where they'll either take one who is just another clone of the receivers they have now on the roster or take the talented but incredibly raw Matt Jones or Vincent Jackson.

[TUG]

These are the same type of players Denver had along the D line in the superbowl years. Al Williams was a bust of a first rounder for the Bengals you had Maa, Traylor and Lodish at DT, and Neil Smith (who some said was too old and washed up) and Hasselbach. Sure Pryce was there in 97 but he wasn't a probowl DT until 98. If anything these guys that we have now are more talented than that bunch. I will admit that I am being very optimistic about this group with all the questions about health and attitude, but I can't denie the potential that this group has.

[Play2win]

I am extreamely optimistic about all these moves!! Especially if we get Pryce back!!

But I always am (Optimistic) ;D

[Hercules Rockefeller]

These are the same type of players Denver had along the D line in the superbowl years. Al Williams was a bust of a first rounder for the Bengals you had Maa, Traylor and Lodish at DT, and Neil Smith (who some said was too old and washed up) and Hasselbach. Sure Pryce was there in 97 but he wasn't a probowl DT until 98. If anything these guys that we have now are more talented than that bunch. I will admit that I am being very optimistic about this group with all the questions about health and attitude, but I can't denie the potential that this group has.

Pryce barely even played in '97 too, they didn't even start to activate him until the second half of the season.

[Spider]

I didnt follow the Browns close enough to comment on their Defense , I have no Idea what they ran as far as Stunts , Single Gap , Double Gap , Yadda , yadda,yadda, So I will wait and see how they do in Denver , also I dont know enough about the Cleveland Line Backers , but I do know Cleveland did a good Job against us when we played them ...I do know that the QB spot Couch/Holcomb Did more harm in Cleveland then the D did .... So we will see

[Rascal]

Williamson is a freaking idiot.

There is no way that this d-line is solid when they missed over half the games there respective teams were in due to injury.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Warren missed 3 games, Brown missed 14, and EE and MM did not miss a game last year.

[Rascal]

Pryce missed 14 correct? How many did Ellis miss?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Is Pryce going to be here next year?

[Rascal]

Who knows but he is still a member of the team and is working out with them.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Let me know when someone besides a poster's "inside source" tells us that Pryce will show up.

[Atlas]

Let me know when someone besides a poster's "inside source" tells us that Pryce will show up.

It was in the Paper. Pryce plans on coming to camp. That is his agent talking. Shanny might just tell him to stay home though if he has no place on the team.

[yavoon]

I hear doctors in denver are planning on moving into bigger houses with all this business coming to town.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

It was in the Paper. Pryce plans on coming to camp. That is his agent talking. Shanny might just tell him to stay home though if he has no place on the team.

No he didn't. He said he'd be there if the Broncos wanted him there, he's just not going to show up on Monday without first being asked.

[CBF1]

My outside source has told me that PrIce might be with the Broncos or might get traded.

So ther you have it :)

[Ballhawk]

Warren missed 3 games, Brown missed 14, and EE and MM did not miss a game last year.

Ya this whole injury thing is being blown way out of context, if you throw out Brown then the other 3 played 94% of the games. Brown is the big question mark, and it is reflected in his contract.

[ro_50]

Williamson, I wonder if he works inside the Broncos offices? He never criticizes the team at all for anything it seems. I do think these are solid moves by the front office, but BW is a homer at times.

I was taught to be objective when it comes to writing.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

It is nice that at least the Broncs have enough DL bodies to put on the field - at least on paper.

While I am trying to be optimistic about the moves, there is not anyone on the roster who could be considered an above average DL unless they are able to shake some serious injuries.

The DL is still the weakest part of this team and the Broncs need to come out of the draft with at least two more DL that can contribute or they will be facing the same problem this time next year.

[SoCalBronco]

Williamson, I wonder if he works inside the Broncos offices? He never criticizes the team at all for anything it seems. I do think these are solid moves by the front office, but BW is a homer at times.

I was taught to be objective when it comes to writing.

yep he is quite homer. To be fair, it isnt that bad a thing because they have to balance out Kizla who is always hating on the team.

[kappys]

This article addresses the DT situation well. We will end up having one of the better DT rotations in the league, which should be a boost from last year. Unfortunately our end situation is thinner than it was before. With Hayward gone we now have Ekuban and Brown as the only starting quality ends - both of whom are always injured. Behind them we've got nothing.

Our Run-D looks very good right now with those tackles and our LB's, but pass rush still looks like a major issue. We'll see how or if this gets addressed.

If we can get a quality end in the draft perhaps, followed by a little more O-line depth and a real punter I will get very excited about this coming season.

[chanesaw]

I think you are underestimatine Palepoi.

[NFLBRONCO]

We might have a good rotation now but, things can change in a hurry. I think Denver should not pass on DL day 1 of the draft. I would not put it past Denver to use 3 of our 4 day 1 picks on offense this year.

[Atlas]

I think Denver should not pass on DL day 1 of the draft. I would not put it past Denver to use 3 of our 4 day 1 picks on offense this year.

I see 2 and 2.

I think Denver will draft a CB, G, wr and a DE/LB

[watermock]

This article addresses the DT situation well. We will end up having one of the better DT rotations in the league, which should be a boost from last year. Unfortunately our end situation is thinner than it was before. With Hayward gone we now have Ekuban and Brown as the only starting quality ends - both of whom are always injured. Behind them we've got nothing.

Our Run-D looks very good right now with those tackles and our LB's, but pass rush still looks like a major issue. We'll see how or if this gets addressed.

If we can get a quality end in the draft perhaps, followed by a little more O-line depth and a real punter I will get very excited about this coming season.

Actually, DE isn't as thin as you make out. Dorsett Davis, Myer and others can play DE. Chucky the Predator can play RDE, and has. If we had to, Pierce could play some DE as well.

We were screaming for a legitimate RDE LAST YEAR. Nothing has changed except we lost our RDE and it's 90 percent certain Pryce will be gone as well.

I'm not saying Pierce is a DE, but we have some bodies that could step in at an emergency. Hell, Hape has to be worth SOMETHING.

A couple of the BrownEyes will contribute or even start. Like Taco says, competition. All these clowns have NO signing bounus' as far as I know. I imagine C. Brown got at least a couple cookies, but I don't think this is a big deal. I would like to get Raylee Johnson again if he comes up dry in FA. I just like we have warm bodies compared to three weeks ago.

The problem with Pryce as I have stated before, is noone in their right mind is going to accept his salary, period, and there is no incentive for him to move. He's like a jackass in the middle of the road. Patton had the same problem on a bridge with one blocking his tanks. He just got out his pearl 38, shot him, and they dumped the jackass over the bridge.

Next.

[Odysseus]

I think you are underestimatine Palepoi.

One player DE rotation in the 4-3? That is just nuts. Either Coyer is lying and he's going straight 3-4 or they need another impact DE to replace Pryce.

Every year they try to saddle the DL on two players backs and try to make it work. If our front four is better than the other guys front four we can dominate offenses. That means 4 impact players no matter where you put them ON THE FRIGGING LINE OF SCRIMMAGE!

Everything starts and ends in the trenchs. The numbers are the numbers and all the motivational speechs in the world will not fix that.

[fontaine]

One player DE rotation in the 4-3? That is just nuts. Either Coyer is lying and he's going straight 3-4 or they need another impact DE to replace Pryce.

Every year they try to saddle the DL on two players backs and try to make it work. If our front four is better than the other guys front four we can dominate offenses. That means 4 impact players no matter where you put them ON THE FRIGGING LINE OF SCRIMMAGE!

Everything starts and ends in the trenchs. The numbers are the numbers and all the motivational speechs in the world will not fix that.

Exactly. Our DL last year was single blocked most of the time. There were times when Hayward looked good but he was too inconsistent. Our LBs did great against the run, better than our DL.

I dunno if these moves are going to pay off but we already have two guys just like Micheal Myers in Fatafehi/Pope. Ekuban is strictly a backup and not starting material.

If this DL is going to get it done and be dominant, then it's going to have to come from players like Pryce and Warren/Brown playing up to their potential.

[watermock]

But you say exactly what I am saying Fontaine...Hayward wasn't a "force" at all. He got 3 sacks against a third string guard playing tackle in a blowout.

So we blow them out in camp, nothing lost like we gave any of them big signing bonuses. Hayward could bust his knee on a coffee table or dog and they still hold the bag.

Like I said, beat Warren with a whip, and let C. Brown come along on that lisfranc at his own rate. By the begining of the season we will know if he can rotate ect. That injury is bad from what I understand. Let's get him in shape too. I kinda trust that C. Brown will step it up when he can. The rest, especially Warren and Davis, I work like sled dogs.

[fontaine]

But you say exactly what I am saying Fontaine...Hayward wasn't a "force" at all. He got 3 sacks against a third string guard playing tackle in a blowout.


No he wasn't a force. But NFL teams are always looking for DE that are young and can produce double digit sacks. Hayward's only 25 and has posted 20+ sacks in the past two years. Don't let their nonchalance fool you. Shanahan and co. really wanted Hayward back because he keeps getting better and is still only 25 with 20+ QB kills under his belt in two seasons. Any defense would kill to have a player like that.


Like I said, beat Warren with a whip, and let C. Brown come along on that lisfranc at his own rate. By the begining of the season we will know if he can rotate ect. That injury is bad from what I understand. Let's get him in shape too. I kinda trust that C. Brown will step it up when he can.

Same story with Ebe-who. God knows when he'll be ready to run full speed again. It won't be in time for mini camps anyway.

[watermock]

But Fontaine! We have had such good luck with Dallas rejects! This time we get someone not only rejected and towed in Ebenkaneezer and Michael Myers by Patterson to Cleveland, but we get both Patterson AND EVEN MORE BAGGAGE in Warren and the Cripple.

Feel better now?

And to think I was homering on yesterday. Damn you to hell.

I'm more comfortable biatching anyway.

[Odysseus]

I like Coyer. I like our defense. I like Shanahan. I love the Broncos. I'd making kissing noises if it helped but these guys need to pay attention to the ugly facts.

I think that you can only disguise a defense so much before you start to realize you are playing peek a boo with yourself. The numbers are the numbers whether you see them or not. Wake the F*Ck up!

In Coyer's interview he begged to differ about his guys not making plays. I wish I could call him up and cough (BuHlShiat!) Making plays! It's not in your frigging playbook. It's not in your magic schemes. He keeps looking for answers in made up numbers and justifying mistakes with more made up politics and rules.

I hope in the transfusion of Browns players that those guys brought a passion for playing football because Coyer is going to offer them up to make needless sacrifices that if he just looked at the basic numbers instead of the made up ones he would see clearly what matters.

[fontaine]

In Coyer's interview he begged to differ about his guys not making plays. I wish I could call him up and cough (BuHlShiat!) Making plays! It's not in your frigging playbook. It's not in your magic schemes. He keeps looking for answers in made up numbers and justifying mistakes with more made up politics and rules.

In fairness to our LBs and Coyer, it's hard to completely let loose guys like Wilson/DJ etc and let them make plays when they have stay at home and sweep up because the DL is weak.

That's one huge difference between New England and the rest of the league. The Pat's possess an awesome DL. Seymour is the best DT in the league, Wilfork was a standout by the end of the season, then you have excellent role players like Warren, Jarvis Green.

When New England want to blitz LBs, or move them around all over the place and use exotic schemes, it's the DL that constantly wins the battle of the trenches and stop RBs from busting loose.

[watermock]

That, and the fact that New England adjusts constantly. I still don't see how Denver can be so flat out of the doghouse into the 3rd quarter. We have a very poor 3rd quarter team. We also suck at special teams, and the red zone.

Coyer at least see it. Look, New England was able to shut down New England. WTF...let's at least copy them to some extent! Losing to the colts is one thing. Having them score frigging 7 TD's in a playoff game is quite another. I don't care if we turn the ball over 5 times. A good D would start blitzing 9 just to get a hit in. Jesus Christ that was an embarrasment.

[watermock]

If I'm down that much I bring the ****ing house and cheat the hot read and might pick one off. We layed down into the fetal position. It doesn't matter if the score is 49 or 56 at that point.

And that god damn nintendo offense. Thank God Q was injured or it would of been an even worse season.

[fontaine]

If I'm down that much I bring the ****ing house and cheat the hot read and might pick one off. We layed down into the fetal position. It doesn't matter if the score is 49 or 56 at that point.

It wouldn't have mattered. It might have been fun to watch Manning getting creamed but the ref would have called a roughing up penalty because the sad fact is Roc Alexander was playing ten yards off of Reggie Wayne and Manning makes that pass before he completes his three step drop.

That leaves rookie free agent Roc Alexander to cover/tackle a 210lb first round WR in Reggie Wayne and we all know how that turned out.

[watermock]

Well, I would of taken out Roc and had Chris Young in there at that point.

I saw the ****ing game. I would of been pressing the issue. We simply layed down. Young could of slapped Wayne around better than letting Roc, who was CLEARLY SHATTERED to the point I don't even think he will be on the roster, continue.

I have never seen a CB so fried. I don't blame the rookie, it's the fact we had two total BUSTS at CB that were in the jacuzzi in LeSewer and Choke. Hell, we had a number 2 corner in Walls that was a street free agent, and Herndon, another.

Yet we let Poole go. Guess what...he picked up a ring or two with New England. He even gave a parting gift, tracking down Holmes and twisting him with a horsecollar tackle.

Our secondary still sucks. Sam Brandon doesn't even have the speed or instincts to play safety for christ sake.

Young at least can bring some punishment.

[fontaine]

Well, I would of taken out Roc and had Chris Young in there at that point.

I would've had rolled the dice with Ferguson especially after Alexander clearly was outmatched in the first game against Indy on week 17.

With Ferguson, at least we could have tried to jam Wayne at the line of scrimmage, punched him in the mouth and disrupted his timing and sent in a backside bandit on a blitz to force Manning to dump it off quick. I would've taken our chances rather than lying down in a fetal position while we got the tar kicked out of us.

But then again, it's easier said than done especially on the speedtrack in Indy.

[Odysseus]

I would've had rolled the dice with Ferguson especially after Alexander clearly was outmatched in the first game against Indy on week 17. But then again, it's easier said than done especially on the speedtrack in Indy.

Good call.

I realize the Broncos aren't the Patriots DL. I realize that we've got issues on both sides of the bench that need to be addressed but my thinking is we are able to get into the playoffs with the offense we had last year. It's the defense that is going to get us past the first round ticket home.

That said...My frustration is we are CLOSE to getting things lined up but not there yet. We are better on offense and on defense but if we don't have the right numbers to do the job it's just happy talk which is bad.

[bloodsunday]

It is nice that at least the Broncs have enough DL bodies to put on the field - at least on paper.

That's just it... they are just bodies! None of these guys, even when healthy, has proven to be a difference maker. Sure they have "first round talent", but so did Ryan Leaf. Wake me up when the Broncos make a move that has a real chance of panning out. I would not even put the odds of any of these guys being a difference maker at 1 in 4. Thus, we have just spent all of our cap space on a bunch of bodies.

[bloodsunday]

In Coyer's interview he begged to differ about his guys not making plays. I wish I could call him up and cough (BuHlShiat!) Making plays! It's not in your frigging playbook. It's not in your magic schemes. He keeps looking for answers in made up numbers and justifying mistakes with more made up politics and rules.

Amen to that! He has clearly taken a page out of Shanny's execuse book. This team is good between the 20's because they are very, very well coached. The problem is, in pressure situations -- 4th qtr, 3rd down, red zone -- this team can't pull it off because they don't have ANY play makers. None. That is what made the Portis trade a bad one, he was the only play maker we had. The only guy that could take over a game. Bailey is good, but the NFL has regulated corners into playing with their hands tied behind their back. Another classic Broncos personnel move, trade your lone play maker for a guy that can't be a play maker because of the rules. Then to top it off, give him 16 more million dollars than the guy you traded away!

I am sick of the whole "we don't renogiate existing contracts" routine. It's killing our depth. The Philly Eagles do it right -- draft a guy, recognize his talent, and then lock him up early. They never get caught bidding for their own players in Free Agency -- like we did with Jeb and Kennoy. Terrible, terrible judgement. Those guys would have taken less money to have had their contracts extended last year.

[Atlas]

Actually, DE isn't as thin as you make out. Dorsett Davis, Myer and others can play DE. Chucky the Predator can play RDE, and has. If we had to, Pierce could play some DE as well.

We were screaming for a legitimate RDE LAST YEAR. Nothing has changed except we lost our RDE and it's 90 percent certain Pryce will be gone as well.

I'm not saying Pierce is a DE, but we have some bodies that could step in at an emergency. Hell, Hape has to be worth SOMETHING.

A couple of the BrownEyes will contribute or even start. Like Taco says, competition. All these clowns have NO signing bounus' as far as I know. I imagine C. Brown got at least a couple cookies, but I don't think this is a big deal. I would like to get Raylee Johnson again if he comes up dry in FA. I just like we have warm bodies compared to three weeks ago.

The problem with Pryce as I have stated before, is noone in their right mind is going to accept his salary, period, and there is no incentive for him to move. He's like a jackass in the middle of the road. Patton had the same problem on a bridge with one blocking his tanks. He just got out his pearl 38, shot him, and they dumped the jackass over the bridge.

Next.

That's a good post. There are possibilities for the Dline now.

[Atlas]

No he wasn't a force. But NFL teams are always looking for DE that are young and can produce double digit sacks. Hayward's only 25 and has posted 20+ sacks in the past two years. Don't let their nonchalance fool you. Shanahan and co. really wanted Hayward back because he keeps getting better and is still only 25 with 20+ QB kills under his belt in two seasons. Any defense would kill to have a player like that.

.

Ecuban got 8 sacks to Haywards 10 and Denver didn't have to give him a $10 million signing bonus!! Not only did Hayward get 3 sacks against a backup guard playing tackle BUT the guy was also playing on a very bad wheel. In reality Hayward got 7 1/2 sacks last year.

[bloodsunday]

Ecuban got 8 sacks to Haywards 10 and Denver didn't have to give him a $10 million signing bonus!!

That's great. I don't lament the loss of Reggie Hayward. Instead, my desire is to some play makers back on this roster, especially on the lines. So far, we haven't added any this offseason.

Our d-line gets a ton of attention, rightfully so, but let's not forget that the o-line play is starting to slip. Much our 3rd down struggles are a result of poor line play. How many 3rd and 1's did we not convert last year? During the glory days with TD, we made a living running the ball on 3rd and 4 or less. Not to mention the core of that o-line is getting older. Add to that the fact that it is only a matter of time before they outlaw our tactics on offense and the picture gets pretty bleak.

To resume our place as a legitimate title contender we need to improve our line play on both sides of the ball. I think the Broncos may have to make some drastic moves -- cut payroll and get additional draft picks -- to make that happen. Then, we need to figure out how to convert our draft picks into play makers for this franchise. That could include either stripping Shanny of the GM responsibilities or bringing in a more established draft expert like Savage.

[Atlas]

To resume our place as a legitimate title contender we need to improve our line play on both sides of the ball. I think the Broncos may have to make some drastic moves -- cut payroll and get additional draft picks -- to make that happen. Then, we need to figure out how to convert our draft picks into play makers for this franchise. That could include either stripping Shanny of the GM responsibilities or bringing in a more established draft expert like Savage.

I blame some of Denver's poor third down percentage on Shanny's play calling and Plummer's mistakes. Plummer made some terrible passes and desicions on 3rd down last year. Shanny's play calling seemed to be conservative, BUT when Davis was running the ball Denver was picking up those 3rd downs. I think Shanny thought Griffin and Droughns could do it too. I remember Hamilton getting stuffed a bunch too......

[fontaine]

That said...My frustration is we are CLOSE to getting things lined up but not there yet. We are better on offense and on defense but if we don't have the right numbers to do the job it's just happy talk which is bad.

This is exactly how I feel. We are very close to having a dominant defense.

The LBs, the secondary is stocked in my opinion.

We're literally one more dominant player away (in the DL) from having a playoff calibre defense that gets us one or two home games. Pryce is already one of those players. If hell freezes over and Warren or Brown come through then we will have a pretty solid DL and everything will be peaches and cream.

[Rascal]

CHIEFS, RAIDERS WOULD POUNCE ON PRYCE



In response to our Saturday story regarding the Broncos' unwillingness to put defensive end Trevor Pryce on the open market because another AFC West team might snatch him up, we've heard that two of Denver's rivals -- the Raiders and Chiefs -- would indeed pounce on Pryce if he were to be released.



The Raiders would need to move cornerback Charles Woodson, we're told, before Oakland could make a run at Pryce. With less than $500,000 in cap room and more than $10 million tied up in Woodson's franchise tender, the Raiders' hands are tied, for now.



The Chiefs, we hear, are holding a spot for Pryce across from Jared Allen. Plus, with eight picks on day two of the draft, we're told that the Chiefs could be hoping to work out a back-door deal, with another team initially acquiring Pryce and then shipping him to the Chiefs.



We've yet to research the specific rules in this regard, but we're not aware of any provision that would prevent the Broncos from placing a term in the initial trade that would require the team who acquires Pryce to pony up extra value if the team were then to ship Pryce to another team within a specific time period. Trades often contain conditions that result in further compensation based on the player's performance; it seems, then, that a team like the Broncos could also insert a poison pill that would, as a practical matter, prevent a straw party from turning around and sending Pryce to the Chiefs, Raiders, or Chargers.

[bloodsunday]

This is exactly how I feel. We are very close to having a dominant defense.

How close are we? I agree with this sentiment in theory. But how do we get better? The obvious weakness is the most important one, yet we have no money to address the situation, it is all locked up in Ian Gold, Champ Bailey, Al Wilson and Trevor Pryce. The only opportunity to fix this problem this season is to draft well. As Len P from ESPN has pointed out, history is not in our favor in that regard. Here's to hoping he is wrong this time.

Another option could be to go to the 3-4 as a base defense. I think we have the athletes, especially at LB, to pull it off. We also have some good tweener type players with Patrick Chakurwah and Anton Palipoi. However, the moves we have made on the D-line suggest that they are planning to stay with a 4 - 3 as our base defense.

[bloodsunday]

The Chiefs, we hear, are holding a spot for Pryce across from Jared Allen. Plus, with eight picks on day two of the draft, we're told that the Chiefs could be hoping to work out a back-door deal, with another team initially acquiring Pryce and then shipping him to the Chiefs.

I have heard, granted who knows how credible it is, that the Chiefs are one of the few teams that are hot on Pryce. Obviously the Broncos are reluctant to make the move, but why? If Pryce can still play, then find a way to keep him. You can restructure his deal without asking him to take a big pay cut and still get some cap relief. It happens all the time. Or, if you think he is done/injured, send is big contract to the Chiefs for anything they'll give you. Trade picks and move up in the first round if you have to.

I just don't understand why they would consider cutting him and thereby getting no value while he waltzes over to the Chiefs anyway. Unless, of course, the reports of his release are unsubstantiated (which I doubt).

[fontaine]

How close are we? I agree with this sentiment in theory. But how do we get better? The obvious weakness is the most important one, yet we have no money to address the situation, it is all locked up in Ian Gold, Champ Bailey, Al Wilson and Trevor Pryce. The only opportunity to fix this problem this season is to draft well. As Len P from ESPN has pointed out, history is not in our favor in that regard. Here's to hoping he is wrong this time.

Well there's hope in the players already on the roster. There's no hope in the draft. Not until the draft picks take one or two years to develop.

For me it comes down to simple math along the DL. Along a 4-3 front you have to have players that command double teams either with their strength or quickness or both.

Pryce is one of those players. When healthy he's one of the best two way DEs in the league because he has the strength and speed to hold up against the run and rush the QB against most Tackles. This is why teams spend a lot of time game planning and double teaming Trevor.

Except, Super Bowl defenses don't just have one of those DL. They usually have two or more. Warren is this type of player in potential only. Let's see if he lives up to that and ditto with Brown.

So all in all we have three players (pryce/brown/warren) who can all command double teams when on top of their game. This give tremendous flexibility as to who you can blitz, what you do with your LBs and secondary. It all starts up front. I hold out some hope because of the various rumours about Warren being cast into the "wrong" system and Brown just being plain injured. The closest thing to a sure deal we have along the DL is Trevor Pryce and that's why I'm adamant about him staying.

[bloodsunday]

In response to our Saturday story regarding the Broncos' unwillingness to put defensive end Trevor Pryce on the open market because another AFC West team might snatch him up, we've heard that two of Denver's rivals -- the Raiders and Chiefs -- would indeed pounce on Pryce if he were to be released.

What was the source for this information?

[Rascal]

oh...profootballtalk.com

[bloodsunday]

So all in all we have three players (pryce/brown/warren) who can all command double teams when on top of their game...The closest thing to a sure deal we have along the DL is Trevor Pryce and that's why I'm adamant about him staying.

Again, in theory this sounds nice. The problem is, neither Brown or Warren have shown anything, assuming they are even on the field. Sure there is a chance that their talent comes to fruition with a new environment, but history does not support that hope. Pryce is as good as gone. I don't understand it to be honest, but if you read between the lines, the Broncos seem intent on getting rid of him. It seems simple to me, if he can still play, then restructure his deal. If not, then either cut him or take ANYTHING another team will give you, even the Chefs. I just don't know how this has turned into so much drama.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Even with the new DL from the Browns the DL has even more question marks than it did at the end of the season and is the most glaring weakness on the team. Pryce - will he be here, will he ever be healthy? Ellis - will he ever be healthy ? Brown - will he ever be healthy? Warren - must prove he is not a bust. Eukeban - must prove he is not a bust. Meyers - can he be more than a spot player? Pope, Davis, Tanavsa, Palopoi - none have made a real impact in the time they have been here - why will that change?

[bloodsunday]

"Salary-cap concerns (Pryce has a cap number of $9.16 million for '05) and age (Pryce turns 30 in August) are among the leading factors in to Denver's decision. The team also plans to switch to the 3-4 defense in 2005, and Pryce is better suited for the 4-3 alignment."

- ESPN.com's Rumor Central

Why is this such a big mystery about Denver switching to the 3-4? Half the sports writers out there are reporting we are moving to a 3-4, like it will be our base defense. According to the Broncos we will just be using more 3-4 in special situations (passing downs), which we already do anyway. It's just matter of making the most of our talent. It's crazy how a topic gets a little attention and then takes off like its a fact.

[Rascal]

That's because most of the media are ignorant fools.

[bloodsunday]

Even with the new DL from the Browns the DL has even more question marks than it did at the end of the season and is the most glaring weakness on the team.

Well said. What's worse, while these guys came cheap, they are all on short term deals. Say Warren explodes this year and becomes a force, then we have to cough up a huge deal next off season! Brown could be in the same situation, but I am not sure about his contract. I have heard that, with incentives, it could be a 5 year deal. Hopefully those incentives protect the Broncos and mean that if he plays well, the contract keeps him here longer.

[Atlas]

Eukeban - must prove he is not a bust. Meyers - can he be more than a spot player? Pope, Davis, Tanavsa, Palopoi - none have made a real impact in the time they have been here - why will that change?

Tanuvasa?? HE hasn't been in Denver in 4 years now. And he did make an impact he played on 2 SB championship teams. Palopoi has only been here one year and he played well last year. I think he could make a move this year for a starting end job.

[fontaine]

Pryce is as good as gone. I don't understand it to be honest, but if you read between the lines, the Broncos seem intent on getting rid of him. It seems simple to me, if he can still play, then restructure his deal. If not, then either cut him or take ANYTHING another team will give you, even the Chefs. I just don't know how this has turned into so much drama.

Therein lies the mystery.

Dan Neil was cut. The team knew his knees were gone and he had a problem with his hernia. The showed no hesitation in getting rid of him and it wasn't for salary cap reasons or age. Just injury and he got too old too fast.

But it's not the same with Trevor. If the Broncos had any serious doubts about his health or back/age etc then he would have been shown the door, cut/traded whatever in a heartbeat to snatch up the salary cap savings and resign Hayward, Kennedy etc. But they are hanging onto to him (at the cost of Kennedy/Hayward) to trade him or hold out to see if he restructures etc because they know he has 3 or more years left of good play and they know they need him when the were scraping the bottom of the barrel with the clowns DL.

[bloodsunday]

But it's not the same with Trevor. If the Broncos had any serious doubts about his health or back/age etc then he would have been shown the door, cut/traded whatever in a heartbeat to snatch up the salary cap savings and resign Hayward, Kennedy etc. But they are hanging onto to him (at the cost of Kennedy/Hayward) to trade him or hold out to see if he restructures etc because they know he has 3 or more years left of good play and they know they need him when the were scraping the bottom of the barrel with the clowns DL.

I agree with much of this. The part I don't know about is what the Broncos know or believe. The reports you see just don't make sense. If they believe Trevor is valuable enough to garner a first round pick and all of this is about money, why would you even consider cutting him outright? Unless he comes out and says "I refuse to restructure my contract", then why would you cut one of your most valuable assets? I just have not heard any indication that Trevor feels that way. Trevor claims he wants to stay and from what I gather there has been no real effort to try and restructure his deal. With his cap number being so bloated, they have plenty of options to make this happen if BOTH sides are committed.

I suspect that Trevor has fallen out of favor with Shanny (always a bad move). Shanahan hates dissent among the ranks and he can't stand players that he believes are giving a poor effort. I suspect he has Trevor in these ranks right now.

[bendog]

Again, in theory this sounds nice. The problem is, neither Brown or Warren have shown anything, assuming they are even on the field. Sure there is a chance that their talent comes to fruition with a new environment, but history does not support that hope. Pryce is as good as gone. I don't understand it to be honest, but if you read between the lines, the Broncos seem intent on getting rid of him. It seems simple to me, if he can still play, then restructure his deal. If not, then either cut him or take ANYTHING another team will give you, even the Chefs. I just don't know how this has turned into so much drama.
wabbit's gone into it. I don't recall all of what he said was the problem with restructuring, but in a nutshell, Pryce doesn't think he should because he played for "less than market value" in the early years and got backloaded, and Den thinks he should because everyone restructures .... and now there's the added complication that no way is he worth the money with an iffy back. So, he's pretty adament about moving on, and not helping Den move him.

[fontaine]

I agree with much of this. The part I don't know about is what the Broncos know or believe. The reports you see just don't make sense. If they believe Trevor is valuable enough to garner a first round pick and all of this is about money, why would you even consider cutting him outright? Unless he comes out and says "I refuse to restructure my contract", then why would you cut one of your most valuable assets? I just have not heard any indication that Trevor feels that way. Trevor claims he wants to stay and from what I gather there has been no real effort to try and restructure his deal. With his cap number being so bloated, they have plenty of options to make this happen if BOTH sides are committed.


Well they simply didnt' want Pryce to have a cap charge of ~9million, healthy or not. But I think what happened was that they asked him to move some of his base salary into incentives in case his back stops him from playing, and Pryce balked at the idea.

The other option would have been to simply take half of his base salary, say $5mill and give it to him as a signing bonus spread over 3-4 years and pare down his base salary and this way they could have saved a bundle but I guess neither side wants to appear weak first and give the bargaining leverage.

I do suspect, the longer Pyrce keeps working out with the team and attending camps the better. That way, both sides can gauge the status of his back properly and once both sides are reassured of his health a deal would be easier to hash out without the unknown status of his back hanging over them.

The don't need his cap space to sign the draft picks anyway. They've got time and I think they'll work something out as long as nobody get stupid.

[Mediator12]

I feel that this situation will be covered by every type of perspective out there, including as we have seen the irrepressibly poor national media types with nothing to report.

One thing that is hopeful for me in this situation is that Coyer has routinely got less talented players to play beyond their perceived potential every year. In 2003, we had 7 street free agents starting on this defense by the end of the year. Yes we got our butts handed to us by INDY in the second game, however, we were missing two starters in the secondary just like this years debacle. Unless you are the PATS, noone even came close to containing Manning with their starters let alone their backup secondary since that playoff game.

In 2004, denver upgraded the secondary and TRIED to get more depth at CB and safety. However, the loss of TP, Lenny, and Willie crippled them versus the Colts again. Losing the #2 and #4 CB's and the only true DL presence was a recipe for another ass kicking from Manning in the Dome. Thank you god for the new field Turf being installed in INDY!

So, Denver picked up what some people have labeled "Bodies" on the DL. I guess people tend to forget that three of those "Bodies" have more natural talent than this line has ever seen since '98 MAYBE. Denver, under Coyer, has been able to survive and even thrive with not much natural talent on the "D". Now, there is talent in the secondary, talent at LB, and finally some talent at DL.

Sure these DL guys were labeled Busts by their former teams. Here they simply have a chance to revitalize their careers with very little risk to the Broncos. The upside potential though is through the roof. Worst case Scenario of the DL looks like this:

LDE: Palepoi
DT: Warren
DT: Fatefahi
RDE: Ekuban

That is comparable to the composition of last years unit without Pryce. OTOH, The best case scenario reads like this:

LDE: Pryce
DT: Warren
DT: Ellis
RDE: Brown

That would be one of the best and talented DL's in the league. Probable Lineup after the shakeup is:

LDE: Palepoi/Ekuban
DT: Warren
DT: Ellis
RDE: Brown

BTW, Warren will definitely lose 10 pounds or so in the offseason workouts to fit Coyer's scheme. Same thing for Brown. Hopefully, playing a little lighter and faster within Denver's scheme will allow them the opportunity they did not really get in CLE. Warren was a penetrating DT that was asked to TWO gap alot in CLE. Brown was asked to Bulk up and play LDE instead of being a great TWO way RDE. Both players were asked to fit the scheme because of the players behind them. They were stunted by repressing their inherant talents to make up for their teammates. They will not have to do that in Denver.

As for Crennel releasing these guys and Savage going along, So what? They would be completely misused again in the 3-4. If anything, these guys proved they are not as versatile as Crennel will want them to be for the money they were being paid. They are talented players who had the weight of the whole "D" on their shoulders and forced to play against their strengths. Gee, I wonder why they were not as successful as the expectations? Anyone want to guess?

Finally, Myers and Ekuban for Droughns deal just adds more depth for rotation and forces Davis to play or get lost. Same thing for the other incumbent DL. More competition forces the rest of the guys to WORK HARDER in the offseason and Camps. It also adds incentive to the injured guys to get into rehab and get on the field. Hopefully, the injuries will play themselves out and Denver will finally get some injury reprieves this season. I doubt it, but at least there is more depth in the "D" on the current roster than last year.

[bloodsunday]

I don't recall all of what he said was the problem with restructuring, but in a nutshell, Pryce doesn't think he should because he played for "less than market value" in the early years and got backloaded, and Den thinks he should because everyone restructures ....

There are ways to restructure without penalizing the players, such as deferring the money in bonuses. There are options here, they must just disagree on what those options are. Clearly, this marriage has been fractured.

[Rascal]

Hey mediator...you think Pryce is going to stick around?

I'm curious if he showed up at Dove Valley today as they start their workout program today.

[Mediator12]

Hey mediator...you think Pryce is going to stick around?

I'm curious if he showed up at Dove Valley today as they start their workout program today.

I have no idea. But until he is actually gone I reserve the right to keep hoping these guys will stop letting personal crap get in the way of doing the right thing and getting Pryce a competent restructure. Sure there is bad blood between the sides right now, but if everyone would stop acting like three year olds and have some professionalism then this could have been resolved one way or the other.

[bloodsunday]

Well they simply didnt' want Pryce to have a cap charge of ~9million, healthy or not.

Agreed. In fact, I agree with them in their thinking on this point.

But I think what happened was that they asked him to move some of his base salary into incentives in case his back stops him from playing, and Pryce balked at the idea.


This seems reasonable on both sides. If I was Trevor, I wouldn't do this, but I would restructure in other ways.


The other option would have been to simply take half of his base salary, say $5mill and give it to him as a signing bonus spread over 3-4 years and pare down his base salary and this way they could have saved a bundle but I guess neither side wants to appear weak first and give the bargaining leverage.


This is where I think the answer lies. Why can't this option work for both sides? Trevor gets his money and the Broncos lower his cap figure.

I do suspect, the longer Pyrce keeps working out with the team and attending camps the better. That way, both sides can gauge the status of his back properly and once both sides are reassured of his health a deal would be easier to hash out without the unknown status of his back hanging over them.

I know there is some anonymous source that quotes him as saying he will show up, but given the anymosity right now, I doubt it. Unless he and the Broncos agree that he will be back, I doubt he will show up. In fact, I am not sure they'd want him at offseason workouts. Whether or not he shows up could be a huge indication of where this stands.

The don't need his cap space to sign the draft picks anyway. They've got time and I think they'll work something out as long as nobody get stupid.

I hope you are right about this. Reports seem to indicate that the Broncos need this money pretty badly. The article in the paper about his release seemed to indicate it could come before the draft.

"Trevor Pryce, the Broncos' four-time Pro Bowl defensive lineman, could be released soon if the team cannot find a suitable trade partner, according to a source....By cutting him, the team would save about $5 million - money the team needs to sign draft picks and cover possible contract incentive bonuses at the end of the season... Denver has re-signed five free agents and four new veterans and has traded for three players. The Broncos also have agreements to re-sign defensive linemen Marco Coleman and Luther Elliss and tight end Patrick Hape... Sundquist said the team could not have made those moves without the relief from Pryce's contract."

Again, perhaps this is all posturing by the Broncos, but I get the impression his release could come before the draft if they don't get a deal done.

[bloodsunday]

So, Denver picked up what some people have labeled "Bodies" on the DL. I guess people tend to forget that three of those "Bodies" have more natural talent than this line has ever seen since '98 MAYBE. Denver, under Coyer, has been able to survive and even thrive with not much natural talent on the "D". Now, there is talent in the secondary, talent at LB, and finally some talent at DL.

I labeled them bodies. How are they any different then Kavika Pittman? How about Leon Lett, man that was a good move. Daryl Gardner was freak of nature, but a BUST. It doesn't matter a lick how much talent these guys have, it matters how much they produce on the field for the Denver Broncos this season, period. Our d-line failed this team last year. I was at the Oakland game watching Collins grill hot dogs as he surveyed the field. The d-line played no better against KC, Indy, or Cincy. If our talent at LB and in the secondary is going to be evident, our d-line must create pressure and then turnovers and big plays will come. I see no reason to believe this team is upgraded over last season. Could I be wrong? Of course. In fact, I hope I am because I am sick of watching a mediocre football team.

That is comparable to the composition of last years unit without Pryce.

Yes, and that unit wasn't very good. That's not just my opinion, but the opinion of nearly everyone who knows anything about football and has watched the Broncos.

[fontaine]

This is where I think the answer lies. Why can't this option work for both sides? Trevor gets his money and the Broncos lower his cap figure.


Because the first side that suggests this option will be the one that's perceived as having caved in. After that more negotiations will no doubt follow but once you lose that initial move then it's hard to raise the stakes for your own side. That's why Pryce's agent is happy to wait for the Broncos to get tight up against the cap - allow Shanny to make the 1st move, and the Broncos are happy to let Pryce's agent field trade offers which ALL ask for a restructure to Pryce's contract and no doubt offer less money than the Broncos.

That's why these intermittent reports are leaked to the press about Pryce being release, so they can bluff his agent into believing that so he'll be more willing to listen to Bronco offers since they'll offer more money than other teams who've already spent their cap dollars.


I know there is some anonymous source that quotes him as saying he will show up, but given the anymosity right now, I doubt it. Unless he and the Broncos agree that he will be back, I doubt he will show up. In fact, I am not sure they'd want him at offseason workouts. Whether or not he shows up could be a huge indication of where this stands.

We'll know soon enough.

As far as signing draft picks, they could get someone else to restructure. Lepsis perhaps.

[Atlas]

So all in all we have three players (pryce/brown/warren) who can all command double teams when on top of their game. This give tremendous flexibility as to who you can blitz, what you do with your LBs and secondary. It all starts up front. I hold out some hope because of the various rumours about Warren being cast into the "wrong" system and Brown just being plain injured. The closest thing to a sure deal we have along the DL is Trevor Pryce and that's why I'm adamant about him staying.

Let's hope Trevor will restructure and Shanny will still give him some money. I'm thinking now that Shanny already has a plan for Pryce's money and there is no way he is coming back.... I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[bendog]

There are ways to restructure without penalizing the players, such as deferring the money in bonuses. There are options here, they must just disagree on what those options are. Clearly, this marriage has been fractured.
Well, the pt is that Pryce is over 30 and now has a bad back, so the team would be crazy to convert 9mil into bonus that's paid up front, even if he doesn't play another down, and is spread out capwise over the length of the contract. And Pryce thinks he's already earned the 9 mil

Use the search feature to look for wabbit's posts on the subject.

[bloodsunday]

Well, the pt is that Pryce is over 30 and now has a bad back, so the team would be crazy to convert 9mil into bonus that's paid up front, even if he doesn't play another down, and is spread out capwise over the length of the contract. And Pryce thinks he's already earned the 9 mil
That is the point from the team's perspective. From the fans' perspective shouldn't the point be, can he play or not? Period. I don't care if Bowlen has to pay him for another 10 years if they guy is the best we've got at our weakest position. Can I defer some of my season ticket costs if the Broncos suck ass this year? :kiddingme


Use the search feature to look for wabbit's posts on the subject.
I get the issues and I have seen the post. I just think there is more here than meets the eye.

[bloodsunday]

I just posted a question about Trevor to Gary Horton on ESPN.com's chat.

This was his reply:


I think the Pryce situation may be a scenario where the relationship has run it's course. Durability and staying healthy for 16 games is a real concern for Pryce. There are a lot of people who don't think he will be the same player he was. And, you can tell by the acquistions that the Broncos have made on the DL that they are ready to move on. They have brought in four guys from the underachieving Browns DL and while they may not be diff. makers, I get the feeling they are moving on without Pryce.


Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the players we acquired. I agree with his assessment that the Broncos are already moving on without Pryce. He is gone.

[Odysseus]

Actually, DE isn't as thin as you make out. Dorsett Davis, Myer and others can play DE. Chucky the Predator can play RDE, and has. If we had to, Pierce could play some DE as well.

We were screaming for a legitimate RDE LAST YEAR. Nothing has changed except we lost our RDE and it's 90 percent certain Pryce will be gone as well.



I think Coyer is planning to run with this but the problem is it starts on the LOS. If my three or four guys can't keep your three or four guys earning their money the guy whose supposed to cash in my DL's superiority gets smoked.

Champ was worth every penny we paid for him if we had the DL that could buy him time. He would OWN Randy Moss if the QB had to keep his head on a swivel.

Coyer is a heck of a motivator. I bet he can convince a bucket of bricks it's a downed lineman. Problem is unless the running back trips directly over this bucket of bricks nothing happens. What is amazing is on a Coyer defense is that our linebackers get the play lined up over the bucker making the bucket get 15 designed bucket stops a year.

We've got some good players. All I am asking is call we a bucket a bucket.

[Mediator12]

I labeled them bodies. How are they any different then Kavika Pittman? How about Leon Lett, man that was a good move. Daryl Gardner was freak of nature, but a BUST. It doesn't matter a lick how much talent these guys have, it matters how much they produce on the field for the Denver Broncos this season, period. Our d-line failed this team last year. I was at the Oakland game watching Collins grill hot dogs as he surveyed the field. The d-line played no better against KC, Indy, or Cincy. If our talent at LB and in the secondary is going to be evident, our d-line must create pressure and then turnovers and big plays will come. I see no reason to believe this team is upgraded over last season. Could I be wrong? Of course. In fact, I hope I am because I am sick of watching a mediocre football team.



Yes, and that unit wasn't very good. That's not just my opinion, but the opinion of nearly everyone who knows anything about football and has watched the Broncos.

Actually, your perception of this move is entirely the weight of your argument. You see only one side of the story and accuse me of having Orange glasses on? That would be pot calling the kettle black. The world is predicated on our perceptions, but that does not have to polarize this issue into the Black and white that this is NOT.

I presented three entirely realistic scenarios of the Future DL not just the comment you posted. I also gave reasons to be hopeful that Brown and Warren will fit better into the Denver scheme at DL than they did Previously. I know you may be new to the board, but I have a very good history of analysis through watching game tape and Actually giving reasons for my opinions.

Most of the functioning of teams is systemic and everything impacts the outcome. The infusion of these guys Will effect the performance of the whole unit. Notwithstanding, no one here knows what that effect will be, including myself. I look for past performance, trends, and style of play before making hypothesis on what may happen.

All you have done is reiterate the history of poor performing FA acquisitions. Then, you seem to be able to asses their potential impact on the field this year with Zero reasons as to their effect.

As far as the DL failing the Broncos last year, that is a severely one sided statement as well. Were they the best unit on the defense last year? No. They were the worst. Did they allow everyone to run all over us? No, they were very good against the run. Were they very effective in rushing the passer? NO way. The biggest reason was a lack of consistant inside pocket push and inconsistent DE pressure off the edges. This was the worst pass rushing unit Denver has had for years. I see them as not failing overall but certainly not helping the "D" become better.

Finally, Coyer has made a difference with substandard talent for two years now on the DL. Now, he has talent at every level. I am looking forward to see what he can do with these guys. Do I think their acquisition alone means improvement? No. However, I look to see the ability to get the most out of previous underachievers and undertalented guys and have Hope that Coyer will make something happen. Would I like to get some first day help on the DL. Absolutely.

[bloodsunday]

I presented three entirely realistic scenarios of the Future DL not just the comment you posted. I also gave reasons to be hopeful that Brown and Warren will fit better into the Denver scheme at DL than they did Previously.

These are great theories. But these guys have been constant under achievers for their entire careers. No one else was lining up to take them. It is a calculated gamble, but history suggests they are just bodies. None of them has a long term deal anyway. Should they succeed, they could sky rocket out of our price range quickly.

Most of the functioning of teams is systemic and everything impacts the outcome. The infusion of these guys Will effect the performance of the whole unit. Notwithstanding, no one here knows what that effect will be, including myself.

There is some merit to this argument. In fact, I believe not enough people give credit the role the system plays in a players' overall career. In my estimation only a small percentage of players in this league could be difference makers no matter which system they play in. Having said that, the Broncos don't have a history of transforming castoff d-linemen. Granted they have a recent history of taking otherwise garbage d-linemen and making them servicable, but none has achieved anything near Pro Bowl status. What's more, we are not systemically a defensive team. Our head coach has his roots in offense and the last 20 years of this team have been marked by offense.

All you have done is reiterate the history of poor performing FA acquisitions.

What else do we have? The recent history of this franchise and the recent history of the players in question is a bad recipe. Sure there is a chance it could work out, but its a small one. People that make their living analyzing these types of deal don't believe this is going to help Denver. See Len P. from ESPN.com. See the Gary Horton quote I posted.

As far as the DL failing the Broncos last year, that is a severely one sided statement as well...Did they allow everyone to run all over us? No, they were very good against the run.

I think this is a fair comment. However, it is much harder to find good pass rushers than good run stoppers. There is a reason pass rushing is at a permium in the NFL. Not to mention the fact that we have a good run stopping MLB and Strong Safety -- getting back to your systemic comment. Isn't it possible that our run defense was a function of good team play and committment to stopping the run instead of good line play?


Finally, Coyer has made a difference with substandard talent for two years now on the DL.

See my comment above. He DOES NOT have a history of turning these guys into to Pro Bowlers. Yeah he gets more out of them than others before them, but he's not a miracle worker. If Brown is not on the field, then it doesn't matter how good a coaching job Coyer does.

[Odysseus]

Let's hope Trevor will restructure and Shanny will still give him some money. I'm thinking now that Shanny already has a plan for Pryce's money and there is no way he is coming back.... I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Pryce broke his back to be a Bronco and even beaten up he's better than a lot of guys around the league. He is seeing lesser players getting fat paydays. He wants to get paid. He feels he's earned it.

Shanny has some players limping into practice saying "pick me coach! I'll play for you!" These are guys that people have written off that really could do well with a fresh start. Shanny wants motivated players. If he can't get this guy (Pryce) to come talk to him how is he supposed to get him to play on Sunday? What really motivates this guy?

There is nobody to mediate this. It's a gun fight and one or both of these parties is going to lose.

If Pryce ends up in K.C. Shanny is going to look so pimped out. I wouldn't doubt Pryce made the phone calls.

If Pryce ends up in Denver I'll be happy only if it makes sense. I wish the Mayor would call up both parties and invite them down for a beer. Somebody has to broker this deal or it's over.

[Mediator12]

These are great theories. But these guys have been constant under achievers for their entire careers. No one else was lining up to take them. It is a calculated gamble, but history suggests they are just bodies. None of them has a long term deal anyway. Should they succeed, they could sky rocket out of our price range quickly.

Past perception may suggest they are just bodies, but not past histories. Ekuban did have eight sacks last year while only starting 13 games, where Hayward had 10.5 in 16. Not much difference. Warren had 4 sacks better than anyone on the interior here while being double teamed every play practically. Brown's knock is injuries not performance. Myers is depth, but better than Davis at this point.

There is some merit to this argument. In fact, I believe not enough people give credit the role the system plays in a players' overall career. In my estimation only a small percentage of players in this league could be difference makers no matter which system they play in. Having said that, the Broncos don't have a history of transforming castoff d-linemen. Granted they have a recent history of taking otherwise garbage d-linemen and making them servicable, but none has achieved anything near Pro Bowl status. What's more, we are not systemically a defensive team. Our head coach has his roots in offense and the last 20 years of this team have been marked by offense.



What else do we have? The recent history of this franchise and the recent history of the players in question is a bad recipe. Sure there is a chance it could work out, but its a small one. People that make their living analyzing these types of deal don't believe this is going to help Denver. See Len P. from ESPN.com. See the Gary Horton quote I posted.

Seriously think these guys know what they are talking about? Neither of them even has a clue how to watch tape. Try Pat Kirwan's article for an objective review of the moves.

I think this is a fair comment. However, it is much harder to find good pass rushers than good run stoppers. There is a reason pass rushing is at a permium in the NFL. Not to mention the fact that we have a good run stopping MLB and Strong Safety -- getting back to your systemic comment. Isn't it possible that our run defense was a function of good team play and committment to stopping the run instead of good line play?

Yes. That is the point. These new guys will have different roles than playing the run first which was a necessity in CLE. Brown is better suited to RDE at a lighter weight where he can focus on pass rush and he will not be as big a liability versus the run. Warren will finally get into a single gap system that encourages line penetration (His primary asset) instead of two gap run contol while being doubled every down.

See my comment above. He DOES NOT have a history of turning these guys into to Pro Bowlers. Yeah he gets more out of them than others before them, but he's not a miracle worker. If Brown is not on the field, then it doesn't matter how good a coaching job Coyer does.

He does have a history of developing DL. Bert Berry did go to the Probowl last year. Hayward did produce 20.5 sacks over two years. Neither of these guys has the raw talent that three of the new pickups had. Two seventh round guys performed admirably at DT last year in Pope and Fatefahi.



That being said, the only thing that will tell if these pickups were good or bad is their performance on the field next year. We all have our opinions on what may happen, but things will be determined on the field. Hopefully, I am pointing out some reasons to not be fatalistic before we have even seen a minicamp, preseason game, or actual game. I sure do not believe that the best case scenario will play out, but the chances of this team being worse are just as good as that happening. The one thing that is pretty easy to see is that the risk taken compared to the possible reward easily favors the Broncos. There were no real "A" list DL available in FA, so they did what they could without breaking the bank. It will remain to be seen whether these moves are short or long term until after next years palys out IMHO.

[bendog]

I'm not sure CB and Warren bring talent. Or, Warren may have talent but so far is umotivated. It's maybe better than 50-50 he'll play, given its a contract year. Eukaban if healthy should be an even trade for Heyward.

Also is Ellis Johnson resigned? Next to Heyward, he was the best of the lot last year. Jmo.

[bloodsunday]

Past perception may suggest they are just bodies, but not past histories. Ekuban did have eight sacks last year while only starting 13 games, where Hayward had 10.5 in 16. Not much difference. Warren had 4 sacks better than anyone on the interior here while being double teamed every play practically. Brown's knock is injuries not performance. Myers is depth, but better than Davis at this point.

The point is that none of these guys, no matter what the circumstance, has been a play maker. Their stats are unimpressive. Even if you slice and dice them to sound impressive (comparing to Hayward?), they just aren't great players. Let's hope one of them develops and that we can keep him beyond 2005.

Seriously think these guys know what they are talking about? Neither of them even has a clue how to watch tape. Try Pat Kirwan's article for an objective review of the moves.

I know these guys make a living out of analyzing this stuff. I also know that they provide credibility to my argument. That doesn't mean they can't be wrong. This is not an exact science.

These new guys will have different roles than playing the run first which was a necessity in CLE. Brown is better suited to RDE at a lighter weight where he can focus on pass rush and he will not be as big a liability versus the run. Warren will finally get into a single gap system that encourages line penetration (His primary asset) instead of two gap run contol while being doubled every down.

Again, this sounds good in theory. They have to prove this on the field. Cleveland played a 4 - 3 like us, so I can't imagine their responsibilities will change drastically. How is playing the run first going to change from team to team? That is dictated by the offense, down and distance, etc... You want players that can play as many downs as possible, run or pass. These guys aren't pass rush specialists, they are d-linemen. Yes they are being counted on to improve the pass rush, but they still have run responsibilities like the players before them.

He does have a history of developing DL. Bert Berry did go to the Probowl last year. Hayward did produce 20.5 sacks over two years. Neither of these guys has the raw talent that three of the new pickups had. Two seventh round guys performed admirably at DT last year in Pope and Fatefahi.

First we are dogging Hayward for getting 3 sacks against a hobbled 3rd string guard playing tackle and now Coyer gets credit for developing him? And yeah, Bert Berry made the Pro Bowl in a different system, on a different team! That's the point. These guys need to perform in a Broncos uni, not as a Cardinal. The other guys you mentioned are case in point that he develops servicable players, but no one that is a real threat to the opponent the way Trevor Pryce was.

That being said, the only thing that will tell if these pickups were good or bad is their performance on the field next year. We all have our opinions on what may happen, but things will be determined on the field.

That is my point. While I appreciate that you have taken the optimistic point of view, I am taking the realistic view. If these guys even had a chance to be good, then we would have had competition in getting them. Brown is the only guy I think has a chance to be a "home run", but his injuries are a real problem. In fact, I read on ESPN.com that only a few players have ever come back from the foot injury he suffered last season. We thought coming to Denver could keep Luther Ellis fresh and he still wound up on the IR.

[bloodsunday]

Also is Ellis Johnson resigned?

No and its unlikely he will. The Broncos balked at the money he was asking for. Now that we have added these other players, we are likely done on the d-line, at least until the draft. I suppose if we move Pryce and get a little money, something could happen. Rumor was he wanted to play closer to home (Atlanta?) anyway.

[labronco]

Bill Williamson sounds too much like bronc's PR person. makes you wish we still had schefner. besides, i hate to see schefner on tv. bring him back to paper.

[bloodsunday]

Bill Williamson sounds too much like bronc's PR person. makes you wish we still had schefner. besides, i hate to see schefner on tv. bring him back to paper.

That's funny, I thought it was the opposite. Schefter was a Broncos apologist, or so it seemed to me. The bottom line is, the Broncos own the reporters in this town and only what they want to get out gets out.

I do miss Schefter though. I tought he gave good insight.

[labronco]

That's funny, I thought it was the opposite. Schefter was a Broncos apologist, or so it seemed to me. The bottom line is, the Broncos own the reporters in this town and only what they want to get out gets out.

I do miss Schefter though. I tought he gave good insight.

yeah. they are in same peapod, but at least scheffy comes out and breaks a news a day before it's announced, i.e. portis/champ deal. billy only gives his watered-down, kiss-ass "analysis" the day after.

[Mediator12]

The point is that none of these guys, no matter what the circumstance, has been a play maker. Their stats are unimpressive. Even if you slice and dice them to sound impressive (comparing to Hayward?), they just aren't great players. Let's hope one of them develops and that we can keep him beyond 2005.



I know these guys make a living out of analyzing this stuff. I also know that they provide credibility to my argument. That doesn't mean they can't be wrong. This is not an exact science.

They do not analyze they regurgitate half of the time. Most sportswriters take a side or slant on a subject and run with it with out regard to the facts. Len certainly does it daily and offers plenty of unsubstantiated garbage because it pays his salary. Horton I am not familiar with at all. Pat Kirwan on the other hand is one of a few National journalists I know that thinks, watches film, and actually talks to people before he writes.

Again, this sounds good in theory. They have to prove this on the field. Cleveland played a 4 - 3 like us, so I can't imagine their responsibilities will change drastically. How is playing the run first going to change from team to team? That is dictated by the offense, down and distance, etc... You want players that can play as many downs as possible, run or pass. These guys aren't pass rush specialists, they are d-linemen. Yes they are being counted on to improve the pass rush, but they still have run responsibilities like the players before them.

You have proven to be smarter than that. Their are four basic schemes involving the 4-3 as a base defense. There are invariable options on those schemes as 90+% of the college and Pro Teams use it. Jimmy Johnson's 4-3 and Monte Kiffins 4-3 are as night and day as it gets. Both are good fits for their players and the players respond by playing well. Did CLE go 4-12 last year due to the players, the coaches, the schemes, or the injuries? The answer is all of the above. They all interrelate. These players will have different Roles, Scheme, Coaching, and God willing less Injuries than last year in CLE.

First we are dogging Hayward for getting 3 sacks against a hobbled 3rd string guard playing tackle and now Coyer gets credit for developing him? And yeah, Bert Berry made the Pro Bowl in a different system, on a different team! That's the point. These guys need to perform in a Broncos uni, not as a Cardinal. The other guys you mentioned are case in point that he develops servicable players, but no one that is a real threat to the opponent the way Trevor Pryce was.

Please refrain from including me in that "WE" statement. Bert Berry was a Street FA from the Colts. He sat two years learning in DEN then got his chance as a starter. He went from 2 sacks inspot time, to 6.5 with significant time, to 11.5 as a starter. Hayward was drafted and developed exactly the same way two years down then 8.5 sacks in significant time to peaking at 10.5 last year. That is two developed players who came through and were lost without compensation. I know for a fact that Coyer is pissed that he keeps getting guys to play and then they move on. Fact is Coyer does the job and the business side loses these guys. That does not pertain to Coyer developing them at all.

That is my point. While I appreciate that you have taken the optimistic point of view, I am taking the realistic view. If these guys even had a chance to be good, then we would have had competition in getting them. Brown is the only guy I think has a chance to be a "home run", but his injuries are a real problem. In fact, I read on ESPN.com that only a few players have ever come back from the foot injury he suffered last season. We thought coming to Denver could keep Luther Ellis fresh and he still wound up on the IR.

I appreciate you relating my view as optimistic. However, calling your view realistic, instead of pessimistic in response, infers that your view is superior to mine. While it might be, I stand on my analysis. I have reviewed some CLE tape from last year and have seen everyone but CB play (Damn Cowboys took Anthony Henry, watch how he will get a PR boost from being there, Who I think may have been the best FA CB on the market do to the new rules. He is Physical off the line and makes plays with the ball in the air.) Anthony Henry would have been the ideal #2 Cb for the Broncos. He could have checked Reggie Wayne up in the playoffs last year. Unfortunately, Dallas had him signed before the FA even broke last year. I call for tampering ;D

BTW, I believe I forgot to welcome you to the board. I look forward to some good discussion with you. It is refreshing to get a new point of view without the EGO most bring to the page as new guys. REP for talking football!!