Barry Bonds hints at missing the entire season

[FADERPROOF]

What a ****ing baby, of course blaming the media for "finally breaking him down."

Bonds on missing the season: 'Maybe'
ESPN.com news services

A dejected Barry Bonds said Tuesday there's a chance he might not return this season because of multiple knee surgeries.

"Right now I'm just going to try to rehab myself to get back to, I don't know, hopefully next season, hopefully the middle of the season. I don't know. Right now I'm just going to take things slow. I feel bad for the guys [Giants teammates] because I want to be out there for them," he said Tuesday after meeting with San Francisco Giants trainer Stan Conte for 1½ hours.

"I'm 40 years old, not 20, 30."

When asked directly if he said he might not be back until midseason or next season, Bonds answered, "Maybe. I told you that before I left, remember? You thought I was joking."

The seven-time NL MVP, who returned to spring camp on crutches Tuesday following last week's surgery, made his remarks while sitting at a picnic table outside the Giants' clubhouse with his 15-year-old son, Nikolai, at his side.

While Bonds was defiant and confrontational during his first press conference of the spring on Feb. 22, he was despondent Tuesday, using the word "tired" 14 times during his approximate 10-minute session.


"I really don't have much to say anymore," Bonds said. "My son and I just going to enjoy life. My family's tired. You guys [the media] wanted to hurt me bad enough, you finally got there.

"You wanted me to jump off the bridge, I finally have jumped. You wanted to bring me down, you've finally brought me and my family down. Finally done it. From everybody, all of you. So now go pick a different person. I'm done. Do the best I can, that's about it."

When asked if there was something specific he was talking about, Bonds said, "Inner hurt, physical, mentally. Done. I'm mentally drained. I'm tired of my kids crying. Tired."

Bonds originally underwent knee surgery on Jan. 31. Four days later he accidentally hit his knee on a table at SBC Park in San Francisco and the knee had periods of swelling. An MRI last week revealed further tears in the knee.

Conte said there was no way of knowing whether the incident on Feb. 4 caused further damage.

"And we don't care," Conte said. "We're starting with a clean slate. We'll try to get it right."

Bonds begins the season third on the career homers list with 703, trailing Babe Ruth (714) and Hank Aaron (755).

Last September, the Giants dropped a provision that would have allowed them to void Bonds' $18 million salary in 2006 if he failed to reach 500 plate appearances this year or 1,500 combined from 2003 to 2005, including at least 400 this year.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

[RaiderH8r]

What a ****ing baby, of course blaming the media for "finally breaking him down."

Bonds on missing the season: 'Maybe'
ESPN.com news services

A dejected Barry Bonds said Tuesday there's a chance he might not return this season because of multiple knee surgeries.

"Right now I'm just going to try to rehab myself to get back to, I don't know, hopefully next season, hopefully the middle of the season. I don't know. Right now I'm just going to take things slow. I feel bad for the guys [Giants teammates] because I want to be out there for them," he said Tuesday after meeting with San Francisco Giants trainer Stan Conte for 1½ hours.

"I'm 40 years old, not 20, 30."

When asked directly if he said he might not be back until midseason or next season, Bonds answered, "Maybe. I told you that before I left, remember? You thought I was joking."

The seven-time NL MVP, who returned to spring camp on crutches Tuesday following last week's surgery, made his remarks while sitting at a picnic table outside the Giants' clubhouse with his 15-year-old son, Nikolai, at his side.

While Bonds was defiant and confrontational during his first press conference of the spring on Feb. 22, he was despondent Tuesday, using the word "tired" 14 times during his approximate 10-minute session.


"I really don't have much to say anymore," Bonds said. "My son and I just going to enjoy life. My family's tired. You guys [the media] wanted to hurt me bad enough, you finally got there.

"You wanted me to jump off the bridge, I finally have jumped. You wanted to bring me down, you've finally brought me and my family down. Finally done it. From everybody, all of you. So now go pick a different person. I'm done. Do the best I can, that's about it."

When asked if there was something specific he was talking about, Bonds said, "Inner hurt, physical, mentally. Done. I'm mentally drained. I'm tired of my kids crying. Tired."

Bonds originally underwent knee surgery on Jan. 31. Four days later he accidentally hit his knee on a table at SBC Park in San Francisco and the knee had periods of swelling. An MRI last week revealed further tears in the knee.

Conte said there was no way of knowing whether the incident on Feb. 4 caused further damage.

"And we don't care," Conte said. "We're starting with a clean slate. We'll try to get it right."

Bonds begins the season third on the career homers list with 703, trailing Babe Ruth (714) and Hank Aaron (755).

Last September, the Giants dropped a provision that would have allowed them to void Bonds' $18 million salary in 2006 if he failed to reach 500 plate appearances this year or 1,500 combined from 2003 to 2005, including at least 400 this year.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.
The "cream and the clear" took the toll on his knees. Shall we have the OM pity party for the Barroid.....Not this Hank Aaron fan...HA HA HA.

[SoCalBronco]

yeah i saw that interview today, it was really weird.

[Sir Mawn]

Slappy? Any thoughts? I hate this guy. What's he complaining about? He basically got away with murder in MLB and he's a millionaire.

[Lidderer]

Slappy? Any thoughts? I hate this guy. What's he complaining about? He basically got away with murder in MLB and he's a millionaire.

Way to look at that big picture buddy.

[CBF1]

I think the 3 knee surgeries this offseason has everything to do with him not playing, Not the media or anything else. I do feel bad for his kids, they must go thru alot of shiat by other kids, which is not cool as far as I am concerned.

[delany]

Slappy? Any thoughts? I hate this guy. What's he complaining about? He basically got away with murder in MLB and he's a millionaire.


You can't find anything to say yourself about Barry besides 'you hate him'...'he got away with murder'...and 'he is a millionaire'..?

Slappy has been very outspoken regarding Barry. Right or wrong...at least he voices an opinion.

Stop feeding off of him!!! Or at the very least wait till he posts and then you can just post your 'me to'.

[-Slap-]

Just remember who said B*rry BALCO would be the next victim of The Curse of the Bambino.

[Lidderer]

I think the 3 knee surgeries this offseason has everything to do with him not playing, Not the media or anything else. I do feel bad for his kids, they must go thru alot of shiat by other kids, which is not cool as far as I am concerned.

yeah, regardless of how much some might not like the fact that barry doesn't talk to the media, or when he does he doesn't smile or joke around like they're best buddies, or the fact that he doesn't commingle so amicably with the other lesser millionaires, the vitiriol this guy has to deal with from idiot fans at every turn, story-grubbing interviewers, and, more importantly, the crap his kids and family have to tolerate, doesn't exactly make me feel like he "got what he deserved".

No other ballplayer(even those who've admitted to steroid use) gets as much junk thrown at them. It's not that he has the right to pull out the race card, but maybe digging in his pocket for the "personality" card might be an accurate and justifiable play.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Bonds is blaming everyone but himself for his problems...as usual.
What a stand up guy! An admitted cheater and professes ignorance of that cheating. I'd rather see him go out failing miserably instead of injured but I doubt this is it for him. I guess one could hope.

[Lidderer]

Just remember who said B*rry BALCO would be the next victim of The Curse of the Bambino.

so by pulling out of the game to be with his family and ease the burden put on his kid's shoulder he's been cursed?

CURSE ME! CURSE ME!

[Lidderer]

Bonds is blaming everyone but himself for his problems...as usual.
What a stand up guy!

What an ignorant post!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Wow. You know...I can see him retiring this year.

What a crybaby. You have to know that the consequences of juicing are potentially disasterous when you decide to use the 'cream' (a blatant admission of steroid use). I think that the problem is that there were no consequences. MLB led these guys to beleive that nearly anything goes as long as MLB profits as a whole. Now Bonds is left up a creek with his cream and the ravenous media are circling his raft.

I hope that his legacy is one of a loser and a poor role model so that the impact is felt in the next generation of potential steroid users. Keep spouting rediculous statements in the midst of your 'roid-rage Barroid, and you will accomplish just that. The guy is what you all call a 'flavor clown'

[delany]

yeah, regardless of how much some might not like the fact that barry doesn't talk to the media, or when he does he doesn't smile or joke around like they're best buddies, or the fact that he doesn't commingle so amicably with the other lesser millionaires, the vitiriol this guy has to deal with from idiot fans at every turn, story-grubbing interviewers, and, more importantly, the crap his kids and family have to tolerate, doesn't exactly make me feel like he "got what he deserved".

No other ballplayer(even those who've admitted to steroid use) gets as much junk thrown at them. It's not that he has the right to pull out the race card, but maybe digging in his pocket for the "personality" card might be an accurate and justifiable play.


In a way though...Barry comes off as a person who sold his soul to the devil....and then bitches about the price - over and over again.

He aspired to be the greatest player ever...so much so that he cheated to do it.

Well there is a price that comes with the glory these days. Sad but true....and it is fed by fans...by people like us who demand up-to-the-moment insider information, autographs for higher and higher prices, and a ideal of perfection for our heros that just doesn't exist (and never did).

Anybody wanting to be a sports icon...or president of the US or similar high profile position better fully understand the bad things that come along with the millions and the glory....including dumbass fans, media types, and a complete loss of privacy for you and your family.

If Barry can't handle it anymore than he needs to step back and leave the game.

With all of that...he is still the best ballplayer I have ever seen in person....with steriods or without them.

[Lidderer]

The guy is what you all call a 'flavor clown'

Actually he's the opposite of a 'flavor clown'. A flavor clown is all about self-promotion and flamboyant acts that garner attention to his person. Bonds is, if anything, teh antithesis of that. A relentless evading of the media(doubtless the surly demeanour is a response to this, not the other way around), and beyond the occasional arm-raising post-HR(which, like, what?, 50% of MLBers do--only of course barry hits them so often that we see the arm-raise that much more) what does this guy do to attract attention to himself?

[RaiderH8r]

Bonds is blaming everyone but himself for his problems...as usual.
What a stand up guy! An admitted cheater and professes ignorance of that cheating. I'd rather see him go out failing miserably instead of injured but I doubt this is it for him. I guess one could hope.
http://www.bscrovigo.it/all_stars_images/barry_bonds.jpg
Before I was a limp armed 30 homer/yr hitter
http://www.snac.com/images/barry_bonds.gif
But then Conte put me on to "the cream and the clear" and now I own the record. But nobody likes me.....

Screw barroid.

[Lidderer]

With all of that...he is still the best ballplayer I have ever seen in person....with steriods or without them.

Much of your post is spot-on, but the last part always gets overlooked.

back in the pirate days he was cranking them out consistently(if anyone pays attention to his HR arc the leap is not so significant when compared with the arcs of other players, albeit the head-size issue seems to be the big redflag, understandably), and would have been a sure-shot hall-of-famer regardless.

[-Slap-]

so by pulling out of the game to be with his family and ease the burden put on his kid's shoulder he's been cursed?

CURSE ME! CURSE ME!

Yea, he's a great family man. His mistress is telling everybody all about that right now.

rofl

[RaiderH8r]

http://www.americanphoto.co.jp/photosearch/Previews/A026109.jpg
Before the cream and the clear
http://espn.go.com/media/mlb/2001/0614/photo/r_bonds_i.jpg
After the cream and the clear*

* Your individual results may differ

[-Slap-]

Much of your post is spot-on, but the last part always gets overlooked.

back in the pirate days he was cranking them out consistently(if anyone pays attention to his HR arc the leap is not so significant when compared with the arcs of other players, albeit the head-size issue seems to be the big redflag, understandably), and would have been a sure-shot hall-of-famer regardless.


He's a fraud. He was exposed. Now he's going to pay the consequences.

rofl

[epicSocialism4tw]

yeah, regardless of how much some might not like the fact that barry doesn't talk to the media, or when he does he doesn't smile or joke around like they're best buddies, or the fact that he doesn't commingle so amicably with the other lesser millionaires, the vitiriol this guy has to deal with from idiot fans at every turn, story-grubbing interviewers, and, more importantly, the crap his kids and family have to tolerate, doesn't exactly make me feel like he "got what he deserved".

No other ballplayer(even those who've admitted to steroid use) gets as much junk thrown at them. It's not that he has the right to pull out the race card, but maybe digging in his pocket for the "personality" card might be an accurate and justifiable play.

I'm sorry, but he put his family at risk when he started using steroids in more ways than just by media ridicule. There are many consequences outside of the sport as well. I wonder if Bonds was thinking about his family during any one of his adulterous escapades.

The media involvement comes with the job. If they weren't there reporting the sport, major league players would not have near the profile or public power that they do.

Bonds gets more ridicule because of his stature and the potential weight of the contribution of steroids to his accomplishments. It is justifiable that he would be the representative because he is the highest profile player involved.

[Lidderer]

Before I was a limp armed 30 homer/yr hitter

that's a cute little set-up and all, but barry hit 47 in 93, 42 in 96, and 40 in 97, so let's not get carried away and suggest that the guy couldn't jack them pre weight-gain.

[Lidderer]

Yea, he's a great family man. His mistress is telling everybody all about that right now.

rofl

right, the ever-reliable mistress.

regardless, this 'curse' you speak of seems to be making him that much more of a family man, supposing such mistress allegations hold true(which no doubt you'd be casting aspersions on the lass if said allegations were levied at one of your 'likeable' ballplayers).

[dbroncos31]

What a ****ing baby, of course blaming the media for "finally breaking him down."

Bonds on missing the season: 'Maybe'
ESPN.com news services

A dejected Barry Bonds said Tuesday there's a chance he might not return this season because of multiple knee surgeries.

"Right now I'm just going to try to rehab myself to get back to, I don't know, hopefully next season, hopefully the middle of the season. I don't know. Right now I'm just going to take things slow. I feel bad for the guys [Giants teammates] because I want to be out there for them," he said Tuesday after meeting with San Francisco Giants trainer Stan Conte for 1½ hours.

"I'm 40 years old, not 20, 30."

When asked directly if he said he might not be back until midseason or next season, Bonds answered, "Maybe. I told you that before I left, remember? You thought I was joking."

The seven-time NL MVP, who returned to spring camp on crutches Tuesday following last week's surgery, made his remarks while sitting at a picnic table outside the Giants' clubhouse with his 15-year-old son, Nikolai, at his side.

While Bonds was defiant and confrontational during his first press conference of the spring on Feb. 22, he was despondent Tuesday, using the word "tired" 14 times during his approximate 10-minute session.


"I really don't have much to say anymore," Bonds said. "My son and I just going to enjoy life. My family's tired. You guys [the media] wanted to hurt me bad enough, you finally got there.

"You wanted me to jump off the bridge, I finally have jumped. You wanted to bring me down, you've finally brought me and my family down. Finally done it. From everybody, all of you. So now go pick a different person. I'm done. Do the best I can, that's about it."

When asked if there was something specific he was talking about, Bonds said, "Inner hurt, physical, mentally. Done. I'm mentally drained. I'm tired of my kids crying. Tired."

Bonds originally underwent knee surgery on Jan. 31. Four days later he accidentally hit his knee on a table at SBC Park in San Francisco and the knee had periods of swelling. An MRI last week revealed further tears in the knee.

Conte said there was no way of knowing whether the incident on Feb. 4 caused further damage.

"And we don't care," Conte said. "We're starting with a clean slate. We'll try to get it right."

Bonds begins the season third on the career homers list with 703, trailing Babe Ruth (714) and Hank Aaron (755).

Last September, the Giants dropped a provision that would have allowed them to void Bonds' $18 million salary in 2006 if he failed to reach 500 plate appearances this year or 1,500 combined from 2003 to 2005, including at least 400 this year.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.
God dammit...there goes my #1 pick this year. F$#@!!!!!!!!!! this is really gay. I thought that he was going to rule this year...what a F%#$ puss!!

[Lidderer]

I'm sorry, but he put his family at risk when he started using steroids in more ways than just by media ridicule. There are many consequences outside of the sport as well. I wonder if Bonds was thinking about his family during any one of his adulterous escapades.



as slap might say


" rofl "

surely giambi et al. are in great risk at this point

[epicSocialism4tw]

right, the ever-reliable mistress.

regardless, this 'curse' you speak of seems to be making him that much more of a family man, supposing such mistress allegations hold true(which no doubt you'd be casting aspersions on the lass if said allegations were levied at one of your 'likeable' ballplayers).


Bonds apologists scare me. They prove that humans will scrape for any possible avenue to hang on to self-delusions.

[delany]

Are we arguing the tired steriod question??? or him being unfaithful???

Here I thought it was about THIS article....about Barry sitting out this year and blaming the media for being tired, harassassed...et al.

Obviously some people in this thread can't see how that would be possible....yet these are some of the same people that get bent out of shape themselves with any perceived, personal slur....on an internet board!!!

Obviously they would handle it much better under the media scrutiny that Barry is always under.

[-Slap-]

B*rry BALCO on Babe Ruth:

"Willie's number is always the one that I've strived for," Bonds said before the All-Star Game on Tuesday. "And if it does happen, the only number I care about is Babe Ruth's. Because as a left-handed hitter, I wiped him out. That's it. And in the baseball world, Babe Ruth's everything, right? I got his slugging percentage and I'll take his home runs and that's it. Don't talk about him no more."

Fact: Babe Ruth's lifetime slugging percentage was higher than B*nds ever managed in single season before he mutated himself with illegal steroids.

[Lidderer]

Bonds apologists scare me. They prove that humans will scrape for any possible avenue to hang on to self-delusions.

Nice generalizing statement to render any valid point I make moot because i'm a supposed "bonds apologist".

Bonds villifiers scare me more, or at the very least those who hated him pre-headgrow(for the bandwagon jumpers, your hatred is understandable).

seriously though,a re we gonna believe any chick who goes on friggin' geraldo rivera?

now that's scary.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What an ignorant post!

Only if you believe in the tooth fairy.

[FADERPROOF]

Just remember who said B*rry BALCO would be the next victim of The Curse of the Bambino.

The baseball Gods must be smiling at this news, hoping thatHnk Aaron's record stays intact.

[-Slap-]

Bonds apologists scare me. They prove that humans will scrape for any possible avenue to hang on to self-delusions.


Seriously. These are the sorriest people I've ever encountered.

[RaiderH8r]

that's a cute little set-up and all, but barry hit 47 in 93, 42 in 96, and 40 in 97, so let's not get carried away and suggest that the guy couldn't jack them pre weight-gain.
And since 2000 he's hit 49, 73, 46, 45, 45 while in his previous 14 years he'd managed to hit 40 homers only 3 times and 30 homers only 5. Hmmm....He'll be 40 in July and he's hitting more homers now than he ever did, even at what is usually considered a baseball players peak years.

[BroncoFiend]

that's a cute little set-up and all, but barry hit 47 in 93, 42 in 96, and 40 in 97, so let's not get carried away and suggest that the guy couldn't jack them pre weight-gain.

There is a BIG difference between 47 and 73. It's not like there is any doubt he did steroids so he is a cheater and doesn't deserve the all time record currently owned by players who did it honestly.

Personally I hope he never plays again, goes off with his family and lives a happy life, and maybe, just maybe one day comes totally clean and talks to kids about why steroids are SO dangerous.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

right, the ever-reliable mistress.

regardless, this 'curse' you speak of seems to be making him that much more of a family man, supposing such mistress allegations hold true(which no doubt you'd be casting aspersions on the lass if said allegations were levied at one of your 'likeable' ballplayers).
Will make him that much more of a family man? Having a mistress?
:kiddingme

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bocawaves/Bonds.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bocawaves/Bonds.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bocawaves/Bonds.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bocawaves/Bonds.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bocawaves/Bonds.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bocawaves/Bonds.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bocawaves/Bonds.jpg

[epicSocialism4tw]

Nice generalizing statement to render any valid point I make moot because i'm a supposed "bonds apologist".

Bonds villifiers scare me more, or at the very least those who hated him pre-headgrow(for the bandwagon jumpers, your hatred is understandable).

seriously though,a re we gonna believe any chick who goes on friggin' geraldo rivera?

now that's scary.


I beleive the answering machine tapes and Bonds' own admissions alongside the physical evidence.

I never had a preference one way or another over Bonds until I found out that he was a cheater.

And by the way, you are a Bonds apologist and you are delusional :-*

[Lidderer]

Seriously. These are the sorriest people I've ever encountered.

yeah let's talk about babe ruth's family-man role-model behaviour.

jesus.

if the sorriest people you've met evaluate a ballplayer based on his performance alone and couldn't care less about his personal life and off-field behaviour, well you must live in valhalla.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Seriously. These are the sorriest people I've ever encountered.


They shoud all be administered Lithium and a steady dose of prozac.

[RaiderH8r]

There is a BIG difference between 47 and 73. It's not like there is any doubt he did steroids so he is a cheater and doesn't deserve the all time record currently owned by players who did it honestly.

Personally I hope he never plays again, goes off with his family and lives a happy life, and maybe, just maybe one day comes totally clean and talks to kids about why steroids are SO dangerous.
He didn't know, he was just using the cream and the clear....HA

[Lidderer]

I beleive the answering machine tapes and Bonds' own admissions alongside the physical evidence.

I never had a preference one way or another over Bonds until I found out that he was a cheater.

And by the way, you are a Bonds apologist and you are delusional :-*

"lol"

I don't really know anything about the case at all, I really don't care one way or another. I watch the giants because i always have and i watch barry because he's the best ballplayer i've ever seen. His personal life means nothing to me.

There's a difference b/w an apologist/delusional and one who simply doesn't choose to accept and tag along with the mass hatred for an individual based on reasons outside of his cheating in baseball.

I don't absolve barry for his steroid use, it just irks me when people start laying into people for non-associative reasons when their real hatred stems from an unrelated issue.

It's petty. "scraping", even.

[epicSocialism4tw]

"I didn't know that I was smoking crack when I did it officer, that guy over there on the corner said that it would make me feel better."

[Lidderer]

"I didn't know that I was smoking crack when I did it officer, that guy over there on the corner said that it would make me feel better."

"I didn't know i was being dateraped officer, that guy over there just said this drink would taste good"

Both apply.

And while you're welcome to raise the "apologist lol, so sad, sorry, hahah, oh man" line again, just note that i'm merely expressing another line of view that eseentially cancels out your zing.

[epicSocialism4tw]

"lol"

I don't really know anything about the case at all, I really don't care one way or another. I watch the giants because i always have and i watch barry because he's the best ballplayer i've ever seen. His personal life means nothing to me.

There's a difference b/w an apologist/delusional and one who simply doesn't choose to accept and tag along with the mass hatred for an individual based on reasons outside of his cheating in baseball.

I don't absolve barry for his steroid use, it just irks me when people start laying into people for non-associative reasons when their real hatred stems from an unrelated issue.

It's petty. "scraping", even.

People's hatred of Bonds seems to come from several avenues...
The 'on the job' cheater idea.
The 'illegal drug user' idea.
The 'I hate the giants' idea.
The 'this guy has no morals' idea.
The 'these guys are ruining the game' idea
The Hank Aaron apologists
The 'Impact on another generation' idea.

there are others and I'm sure that they'll be posted.

[epicSocialism4tw]

"I didn't know i was being dateraped officer, that guy over there just said this drink would taste good"

Both apply.

And while you're welcome to raise the "apologist lol, so sad, sorry, hahah, oh man" line again, just note that i'm merely expressing another line of view that eseentially cancels out your zing.


You missed the point of the post. It was a childish excuse.

Why would a supplement company lie to their most high profile client and put that advertising capability at risk?

[DBroncos4life]

Not that it matters but Rotoworld thinks his just jumping the gun because hes upset at the way things are going. He may miss more time he may not.

[Lidderer]

You missed the point of the post. It was a childish excuse.

Why would a supplement company lie to their most high profile client and put that advertising capability at risk?

to keep that particular client and have him benefit from their regimine/enhancers without his possible refusal.

I mean it's barry bonds here, probably the best player in baseball pre-balco, so having him supporting the product and having said product show marked improvement seems to be the ideal marketing strategy(minus the getting busted part, obviously).

The real question, then, seems to be "why even tell him?" If you ever get busted with the stuff the company is done anyway, so it's not like your high-profile client's name attachment would get you out of hot water if he wasn't juicing.

[CBF1]

So did his roid use win him his 1st 3 MVP's? Did they make him steal 500 bases? How about the 8 gold gloves he got by 1997. Bottom line the guy was HOF before any questions of roid use. If you ever went to dodger stadium, they barry chants were there since 1993.

I know none of us has gained weight or filled out with age.... even working out 4-6 days a week.

What I see is alot of hatred because of drug use, But why are the same people that are crying about barry not saying anything about McGwire, Sammy(i did not know the bat was corked)Sosa, Lenny Dykstra and Cammi and all the others either that have admitted using or been accused of using roids? Just seems it is easier to dog pile on the guy on the bottom. Some players have been quoted as saying that as many as 20% or more players used roids or other enhancing drugs during their careers and no one is saying shiat about them. I guess greatness comes with a higher price.

If Barry was only a average player, this thread would never have been posted and put on the back burner like Camminetti and alot of the other marginal players.

[epicSocialism4tw]

So did his roid use win him his 1st 3 MVP's? Did they make him steal 500 bases? How about the 8 gold gloves he got by 1997. Bottom line the guy was HOF before any questions of roid use. If you ever went to dodger stadium, they barry chants were there since 1993.

I know none of us has gained weight or filled out with age.... even working out 4-6 days a week.

What I see is alot of hatred because of drug use, But why are the same people that are crying about barry not saying anything about McGwire, Sammy(i did not know the bat was corked)Sosa, Lenny Dykstra and Cammi and all the others either that have admitted using or been accused of using roids? Just seems it is easier to dog pile on the guy on the bottom. Some players have been quoted as saying that as many as 20% or more players used roids or other enhancing drugs during their careers and no one is saying shiat about them. I guess greatness comes with a higher price.

If Barry was only a average player, this thread would never have been posted and put on the back burner like Camminetti and alot of the other marginal players.


You are right. It would be McGwire at the center of the storm if Bonds were not a quality player, but he is. Not only is he a quality player but he is in the running for the most sacred record in baseball and has gotten there in large part with the help of steroids. That does not diminish the fact that he is a good player, but it takes him from greatness into something more dispicable than Pete Rose.

[Bronco LB 59]

Today, is a good day for Hammerin Hank and the Babe.

The San Francisco Giants are officially screwed. Team Geraitol is going nowhere without Barroid. My San Diego Padres are sitting pretty right now and like their chances to take the NL West this season.

[Lidderer]

You are right. It would be McGwire at the center of the storm if Bonds were not a quality player, but he is.

I think we all know that wouldn't be the case.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think we all know that wouldn't be the case.

Are you about to throw the race card? :kiddingme Its the home run record, dude.

[RaiderH8r]

So did his roid use win him his 1st 3 MVP's? Did they make him steal 500 bases? How about the 8 gold gloves he got by 1997. Bottom line the guy was HOF before any questions of roid use. If you ever went to dodger stadium, they barry chants were there since 1993.

I know none of us has gained weight or filled out with age.... even working out 4-6 days a week.

What I see is alot of hatred because of drug use, But why are the same people that are crying about barry not saying anything about McGwire, Sammy(i did not know the bat was corked)Sosa, Lenny Dykstra and Cammi and all the others either that have admitted using or been accused of using roids? Just seems it is easier to dog pile on the guy on the bottom. Some players have been quoted as saying that as many as 20% or more players used roids or other enhancing drugs during their careers and no one is saying shiat about them. I guess greatness comes with a higher price.

If Barry was only a average player, this thread would never have been posted and put on the back burner like Camminetti and alot of the other marginal players.
I'm pissed with McGwire, never thought much of Sosa as a ballplayer but if he's juicin screw him, Cammi....well....he's dead from OD so he's kinda got his comeuppance already and I'll leave it at that, Canseco's always been a douche bag steroids or no. But the difference is...BARROID is the King a@@hole and that makes it a whole lot easier to jump his sh!t because for so long he acted like his sh!t didn't stink. That's why people will gladly hang him out to dry because he's pissed on a lot of shoes with his attitude.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I'm pissed with McGwire, never thought much of Sosa as a ballplayer but if he's juicin screw him, Cammi....well....he's dead from OD so he's kinda got his comeuppance already and I'll leave it at that, Canseco's always been a douche bag steroids or no. But the difference is...BARROID is the King a@@hole and that makes it a whole lot easier to jump his sh!t because for so long he acted like his sh!t didn't stink. That's why people will gladly hang him out to dry because he's pissed on a lot of shoes with his attitude.

Big Mac was my favorite player from his rookie season until he retired, but I can willingly throw all of his accomplishments out the window because he was a cheater.

[RaiderH8r]

Big Mac was my favorite player from his rookie season until he retired, but I can willingly throw all of his accomplishments out the window because he was a cheater.
I'm the same way. Really pisses me off. Anyway, screw Barroid, Hank's the man.

[Lidderer]

Are you about to throw the race card? :kiddingme Its the home run record, dude.

Not at all. But Mark has likeability. I'm throwing the personality card. Bonds was getting flack long before balco.

[Lidderer]

Big Mac was my favorite player from his rookie season until he retired, but I can willingly throw all of his accomplishments out the window because he was a cheater.

I could do the same for barry, and he's not even one of my top 20 favorite players, only I wouldn't disregard his stellar seasons pre-balco, whereas Mark was obviously on roids throughout his career's duration.

[RaiderH8r]

Not at all. But Mark has likeability. I'm throwing the personality card. Bonds was getting flack long before balco.
He's been an asshole a lot longer than he's been on the cream and the clear. So yeah, what's your point?

[watermock]

Blaming the media is the most far fetched idiotic take possible.

Let's go down the list.

He blames the media for knee problems. What's the causality?

Basically, he has consistently told the media to **** off with a surley attitude. Believe me, the media LOVES to make a hero. The fact is, his behavior has been horrible.

As far as the media destroying his family. I guess if your Magic Johnson, or Strahan, or Boggs, or the countless others with not only trim on the side, but women actually SET UP in different cities to give lollypop auditions, it's totally absurd for Bonds to tell the MEDIA they are destroying his family.

"Daddy, who is that woman that's suing you?"

Bonds isn't the only one playing the adultery game, but he's the one blaming the media for it. He's blaming the media for fan rejection. He's blaming the media for his knee injury, he's probably blaming the media for his pathetic performances in post season. He's even now hedging on Aarons record, because he's more obsessed with beating "whitey" Ruth.

He's even played the race card on several occasions. He just doesn't get it. He won't get it anymore than Pete Rose will ever get it.

Bonds is mad because he can't ride the juice to the record, and knows that he's sold his soul for something that will make the asterik beside the Maris HR record look like a pebble on the freeway.

He's a liar, a cheater, a thief and a blamer.

Maybe, just maybe, his body is breaking down because he's off the juice. It's the media's fault. Haven't we seen Boston's knees go to hell in a handbasket as well?

I don't know what this rookie is trying to sell, but I'm not buying. Hell, I can even have limited sympathy for goofs like Sosa, Canseco and Giambi, at least they don't come off like total assholes and seem to know they have been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar. Bonds is just playing the blame game. Hell, next thing, he will be blaming "the man" for tricking him into steroid use.

If the glove fits, you must convict.

[Lidderer]

He's been an asshole a lot longer than he's been on the cream and the clear. So yeah, what's your point?

That's exactly my point actually.

[RaiderH8r]

That's exactly my point actually.
He pissed on the media. Never wage a verbal war with people who buy ink by the barrel and paper by the ton.

[gunns]

While Bonds was defiant and confrontational during his first press conference of the spring on Feb. 22, he was despondent Tuesday, using the word "tired" 14 times during his approximate 10-minute session.While Bonds was defiant and confrontational during his first press conference of the spring on Feb. 22, he was despondent Tuesday, using the word "tired" 14 times during his approximate 10-minute session.

Coming down off those roids. No "cream" makes Barry worse than he usually is. Barry need only look in the mirror to see who causes the grief for his family.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I could do the same for barry, and he's not even one of my top 20 favorite players, only I wouldn't disregard his stellar seasons pre-balco, whereas Mark was obviously on roids throughout his career's duration.


That is poor reasoning. :dummy:

You say: I can throw out Barry's home run record, but not his stature as a great player.

Here are the problems:
1) You dont recognize that the issue at hand is Bonds' transcendance beyond excellent to "all-time" status.
2) You admit that there is an issue with his "all-time" status and thus void the crux of the argument only to argue a lesser point which has no bearing on the crux problem and then use that issue to validate an opinion that argues for an idea that you are arguing against.

[Lidderer]

Blaming the media is the most far fetched idiotic take possible.

Let's go down the list.

He blames the media for knee problems. What's the causality?

Basically, he has consistently told the media to **** off with a surley attitude. Believe me, the media LOVES to make a hero. The fact is, his behavior has been horrible.

As far as the media destroying his family. I guess if your Magic Johnson, or Strahan, or Boggs, or the countless others with not only trim on the side, but women actually SET UP in different cities to give lollypop auditions, it's totally absurd for Bonds to tell the MEDIA they are destroying his family.

"Daddy, who is that woman that's suing you?"

Bonds isn't the only one playing the adultery game, but he's the one blaming the media for it. He's blaming the media for fan rejection. He's blaming the media for his knee injury, he's probably blaming the media for his pathetic performances in post season. He's even now hedging on Aarons record, because he's more obsessed with beating "whitey" Ruth.

He's even played the race card on several occasions. He just doesn't get it. He won't get it anymore than Pete Rose will ever get it.

Bonds is mad because he can't ride the juice to the record, and knows that he's sold his soul for something that will make the asterik beside the Maris HR record look like a pebble on the freeway.

He's a liar, a cheater, a thief and a blamer.

Maybe, just maybe, his body is breaking down because he's off the juice. It's the media's fault. Haven't we seen Boston's knees go to hell in a handbasket as well?

I don't know what this rookie is trying to sell, but I'm not buying. Hell, I can even have limited sympathy for goofs like Sosa, Canseco and Giambi, at least they don't come off like total assholes and seem to know they have been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar. Bonds is just playing the blame game. Hell, next thing, he will be blaming "the man" for tricking him into steroid use.

If the glove fits, you must convict.

He's blaming the media for the emotional toll, not the knee.

The lack of juice is causing him to wear down? He's over 40 years old, mock.

With respect to the "media destroying his family", he's merely saying it exacerbates the situation, and it is not his duty to apologize to the media for his liasons on the side, that's between him and his wife.

"playing the race card" is cringe-inducing republican garbage, just take a look at the recent online study at Harvard that proves(you can take the test yourself as well) that the majority of us are hardwired to hold a bias. You can 't just write it off because he mentions it, the fact is that there are problems certain people face. For some reason "playing the race card" has made us believe racism just doesn't exist, which is foolish and naive. That said, he probably shouldn't be mentioning it anyway.

The ephemeral issues are just that, and should be duly ignored. However, most people can't seem to leave skewed bias alone.

Hate him for juicing, that's legit. hate the others too. But maybe stop caring at all about the other stuff. Or at least have some consistency(ie. the glamorization of babe ruth, et al.)

[Lidderer]

He pissed on the media. Never wage a verbal war with people who buy ink by the barrel and paper by the ton.

He doesn't really care about that, "clear"ly. Nor do my evaluating facilities.

[Lidderer]

That is poor reasoning. :dummy:

You say: I can throw out Barry's home run record, but not his stature as a great player.

Here are the problems:
1) You dont recognize that the issue at hand is Bonds' transcendance beyond excellent to "all-time" status.
2) You admit that there is an issue with his "all-time" status and thus void the crux of the argument only to argue a lesser point which has no bearing on the crux problem and then use that issue to validate an opinion that argues for an idea that you are arguing against.

I'm not just admitting that there is an "issue" with his all-time status, I'm outright agreeing with those who say it should be voided.

And the issue at hand is not Bonds' transcendance, it's "barry is a baby, i hate barry, he's a cheater, the media didn't do him wrong, he's got what's coming to him!", etc.

You did some nice phraseweilding in point 2), but you're pinning me down too narrowly. Perhaps your idea of a "Bonds apologists" has clouded your view of this particular Bonds fan(a mild one, at that).

[epicSocialism4tw]

I'm not just admitting that there is an "issue" with his all-time status, I'm outright agreeing with those who say it should be voided.

And the issue at hand is not Bonds' transcendance, it's "barry is a baby, i hate barry, he's a cheater, the media didn't do him wrong, he's got what's coming to him!", etc.

You did some nice phraseweilding in point 2), but you're pinning me down too narrowly. Perhaps your idea of a "Bonds apologists" has clouded your view of this particular Bonds fan(a mild one, at that).

Sounds like you debate in high school or something, but don't bring that trash in here. There are too many people that can make you look your age.

[Lidderer]

Will make him that much more of a family man? Having a mistress?
:kiddingme



try reading the post again and the first post in the thread as well.

[RaiderH8r]

Bonds is a cheater and that casts a shadow over ALL he's ever done in the game. The media didn't do this to him, he did it to himself. And his uppance will come.

[Pat Bowlen]

Perhaps your idea of a "Bonds apologists" has clouded your view of this particular Bonds fan(a mild one, at that).
What's your definition of 'mild'?

[Lidderer]

Sounds like you debate in high school or something, but don't bring that trash in here. There are too many people that can make you look your age.

oh i see, an attempt to carry on a discussion by deploying readymade tools and tactics equates to "hah, you're in high school, you debate, lol".

So what should i bring in here if not formal discussion?

I'm 25 and not sure what that age will look like when shown to me, so please continue if you like.

[RaiderH8r]

What's your definition of 'mild'?
Peppery, with a subtle kick and delicate finish.

[Lidderer]

What's your definition of 'mild'?

oh, say, top 25.

Chipotle, really.

[-Slap-]

to keep that particular client and have him benefit from their regimine/enhancers without his possible refusal.

I mean it's barry bonds here, probably the best player in baseball pre-balco, so having him supporting the product and having said product show marked improvement seems to be the ideal marketing strategy(minus the getting busted part, obviously).

The real question, then, seems to be "why even tell him?" If you ever get busted with the stuff the company is done anyway, so it's not like your high-profile client's name attachment would get you out of hot water if he wasn't juicing.

Oh, my God.

Never doubt the power of denial.

[Lidderer]

Oh, my God.

Never doubt the power of denial.

nice refutation. hey llama, what schooling level would you associate with the debating technique above?

[Pat Bowlen]

oh, say, top 25.
You sound obsessed, though. Really.

[Pat Bowlen]

nice refutation. hey llama, what schooling level would you associate with the debating technique above?
That's not Debate. That's Logic 101.

[bendog]

Liddy, there are a lot of baseball players I don't/didn't care for - Pete Rose for one. But, Barry cheated. He's a dick, and not a family guy. Fick him.

btw, any thought that his crying is maybe about without the 'roids, his knees won't hold up?

[Lidderer]

Oh, my God.

Never doubt the power of denial.

But to your point(or whatever it is), I was simply going over the reasons why BALCO would NOT tell bonds---I'm under the impression and hold the belief that barry DID know he was taking steroids--since the post before that had stated that somehow bonds' assoc. with balco would be reason enough for us to think that they would definitely inform him of the benefits and truth behind the clear.

All I suggested was that it would make MORE sense for them to keep barry in the dark.

So, where's the denial?

[Lidderer]

That's not Debate. That's Logic 101.

you misread the post pat.

[RaiderH8r]

Liddy, there are a lot of baseball players I don't/didn't care for - Pete Rose for one. But, Barry cheated. He's a dick, and not a family guy. Fick him.

btw, any thought that his crying is maybe about without the 'roids, his knees won't hold up?
And one side effect of the juice is emotional instability....hence the crying.

[Lidderer]

Liddy, there are a lot of baseball players I don't/didn't care for - Pete Rose for one. But, Barry cheated. He's a dick, and not a family guy. Fick him.

btw, any thought that his crying is maybe about without the 'roids, his knees won't hold up?

yup, he's a dick to the media and to fans.

yup, he cheated for the latter-portion of his career.

[Lidderer]

You sound obsessed, though. Really.

post count buffering

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So did his roid use win him his 1st 3 MVP's? Did they make him steal 500 bases? How about the 8 gold gloves he got by 1997. Bottom line the guy was HOF before any questions of roid use. If you ever went to dodger stadium, they barry chants were there since 1993.

I know none of us has gained weight or filled out with age.... even working out 4-6 days a week.

What I see is alot of hatred because of drug use, But why are the same people that are crying about barry not saying anything about McGwire, Sammy(i did not know the bat was corked)Sosa, Lenny Dykstra and Cammi and all the others either that have admitted using or been accused of using roids? Just seems it is easier to dog pile on the guy on the bottom. Some players have been quoted as saying that as many as 20% or more players used roids or other enhancing drugs during their careers and no one is saying shiat about them. I guess greatness comes with a higher price.

If Barry was only a average player, this thread would never have been posted and put on the back burner like Camminetti and alot of the other marginal players.

You must have missed the Baseball hearings thread. The guys you're saying aren't being vilified like Bonds were roasted.

[-Slap-]

I'm pissed with McGwire, never thought much of Sosa as a ballplayer but if he's juicin screw him, Cammi....well....he's dead from OD so he's kinda got his comeuppance already and I'll leave it at that, Canseco's always been a douche bag steroids or no. But the difference is...BARROID is the King a@@hole and that makes it a whole lot easier to jump his sh!t because for so long he acted like his sh!t didn't stink. That's why people will gladly hang him out to dry because he's pissed on a lot of shoes with his attitude.

Thank you. I concur completely.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You must have missed the Baseball hearings thread. The guys you're saying aren't being vilified like Bonds were roasted.


Yeah...I was surprised. They started kind of slowly and by the time I quit watching (right after that democrat lady used her TV time to bash Schwarzenegger! That was so blatant that it was funny) they were not letting them give the one sentance "we want to do what is best for baseball" answer. Schilling was fairly forthcoming, but those congressmen got fed up with Sosa and McGwire looking at the ground and just trying to get out of there without saying anything worth hearing.

[Lidderer]

I'm pissed with McGwire, never thought much of Sosa as a ballplayer but if he's juicin screw him, Cammi....well....he's dead from OD so he's kinda got his comeuppance already and I'll leave it at that, Canseco's always been a douche bag steroids or no. But the difference is...BARROID is the King a@@hole and that makes it a whole lot easier to jump his sh!t because for so long he acted like his sh!t didn't stink. That's why people will gladly hang him out to dry because he's pissed on a lot of shoes with his attitude.


This strikes me as being the true benchmark of 'obsession'; I mean you evaluate whether or not you like a BASEBALL player based on how he treats the reports, how he deals with media, and his chummyness with teamates. I go to the game or watch it on tv for the baseball. The rest I leave alone and pay little mind to.

To invest so much thought and have such criteria needing filled before you can determine your like/dislike for a player seems needless and irrelevant to the matter at hand.

My interest in an athlete has nothing to do with things outside of his athletic ability.

[Lidderer]

Yeah...I was surprised. They started kind of slowly and by the time I quit watching (right after that democrat lady used her TV time to bash Schwarzenegger! That was so blatant that it was funny) they were not letting them give the one sentance "we want to do what is best for baseball" answer. Schilling was fairly forthcoming, but those congressmen got fed up with Sosa and McGwire looking at the ground and just trying to get out of there without saying anything worth hearing.

Kudos to the grillers on that one; Sosa and Mac looked foolish.

[bendog]

I feel for Maguire. There's a guy who was washed up with injury. When healthy, he had power second to nobody. But his back and legs were so shot that he couldn't take enough BP to keep his stroke. He did the juice just to keep earning the bucks. I'd have done the same thing. Then the homerun thing with Sosa happened, and everybody was after him to keep the magic coming. He retired soon after the creatine stories came out. His record should be pulled. But as a human being, he's a decent guy.

Barry's a ****. Personally and professionally. Barry's Dad and Frank Robinson were reportedly hard to deal with, but they didn't juice. So, you can be a **** and still be a great ball player, but Barry cheated. And, he was a **** to begin with.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

My interest in an athlete has nothing to do with things outside of his athletic ability.
Well, that's obvious. And it's also obvious cheating the game doesn't bother you too much either.

[epicSocialism4tw]

This strikes me as being the true benchmark of 'obsession'; I mean you evaluate whether or not you like a BASEBALL player based on how he treats the reports, how he deals with media, and his chummyness with teamates. I go to the game or watch it on tv for the baseball. The rest I leave alone and pay little mind to.

To invest so much thought and have such criteria needing filled before you can determine your like/dislike for a player seems needless and irrelevant to the matter at hand.

My interest in an athlete has nothing to do with things outside of his athletic ability.

Well that's great. You have your opinion, but there is no defining method to like a player that crosses all opinion just like everything else in real life. Some people do base their enjoyment on the personality of a player or his involvement with the community, class, (maybe race in your case) etc.

[RaiderH8r]

This strikes me as being the true benchmark of 'obsession'; I mean you evaluate whether or not you like a BASEBALL player based on how he treats the reports, how he deals with media, and his chummyness with teamates. I go to the game or watch it on tv for the baseball. The rest I leave alone and pay little mind to.

To invest so much thought and have such criteria needing filled before you can determine your like/dislike for a player seems needless and irrelevant to the matter at hand.

My interest in an athlete has nothing to do with things outside of his athletic ability.
I don't like assholes in ANY walk of life. THEY'RE ASSHOLES....God you're dim.

[Lidderer]

Well, that's obvious. And it's also obvious cheating the game doesn't bother you too much either.

1) i thought the drugs weren't illegal. Doesn't there have to be a rule to be a violation? (admittedly, this is a weak defense, but my intention is to chastise MLB rather than the specific players who loopholed the league's laxness)

2) I've stated several times in this thread that i think he is doing steroids. I'm not gonna get all riled up over it when the bulk of MLB is doing it, thus my evaluation of players discredits that one issue since I don't wanna be left cheering for craig counsel.

[bendog]

But an asshole is not necessarily also a cheater (-: But he can be both!

[RaiderH8r]

But an asshole is not necessarily also a cheater (-: But he can be both!
Certainly. But when an asshole turns out to also be a cheater, well that's just guilding the lilly.

[Lidderer]

I don't like assholes in ANY walk of life. THEY'RE ASSHOLES....God you're dim.

that's your perogative. But that makes me dim because I have no interest in a ballplayer's personal life? I doubt it.

[Lidderer]

Well that's great. You have your opinion, but there is no defining method to like a player that crosses all opinion just like everything else in real life. Some people do base their enjoyment on the personality of a player or his involvement with the community, class, (maybe race in your case) etc.

Yep, they do. No denying that. And that's well and good, but at the end of the day we're really just talking about baseball. I think Bill James' next book actually deals with the productivity of RHPs who prefer reality tv to network sitcom. The results, as one might expect, should be shocking.

[BritBronco Maniac]

The knee injury is the perfect excuse for him to retire now and avoid the humiliation of failing a steroid test

[bendog]

yep, AND he keeps the money without playing. Class guy.

[Lidderer]

yep, AND he keeps the money without playing. Class guy.

he hasn't exactly retired here, that's jumping the gun. He said "mid-season maybe", and it could be sooner.

Name me 10 players who got injured and didn't keep the money?

Yeah, didn't think so.

[bendog]

read the clause the giants dropped with mandated plate appearance. And get a towel, that's disgusting

[Bronco_Beerslug]

1) i thought the drugs weren't illegal. Doesn't there have to be a rule to be a violation? (admittedly, this is a weak defense, but my intention is to chastise MLB rather than the specific players who loopholed the league's laxness)

2) I've stated several times in this thread that i think he is doing steroids. I'm not gonna get all riled up over it when the bulk of MLB is doing it, thus my evaluation of players discredits that one issue since I don't wanna be left cheering for craig counsel.
I played the game (not at the major league level) and love it (or did until about 15 years ago. There IS an unwritten rule in Baseball ( and cheating no matter how you do it breaks that rule). And I don't think the majority of players are cheating or have cheated. But those that have are scum of the earth in my book. And another thing, I am "all riled up" over the baseball cheaters!!!!!!!

You appear to be a snapshot of the fans today, really indifferent when it comes to the game itself.

[Lidderer]

read the clause the giants dropped with mandated plate appearance. And get a towel, that's disgusting

still waiting...

[Lidderer]

read the clause the giants dropped with mandated plate appearance. And get a towel, that's disgusting

still waiting...

you can't lambast a guy for doing what almost every other player in the same position would and has done.

the guy has had knee injuries for the last 8 years, that's the giants fault, and dropping the clause is the equivalent of saying "hey, um, you've pretty much single-handedly funded our new ballpark, kept it packed, and made us competitive every year, so yeah, we're not gonna be cheap here"

[Lidderer]

You appear to be a snapshot of the fans today, really indifferent when it comes to the game itself.


um, i've made posts about how i disregard everything but the game itself. The typical fan of today is one who feels the need to gather bits of unrelated data and prioritize that over the results the player produces on the field.

I played ball too, for quite a long while, and obviously i think there are problems with cheating, but that doesnt discredit what bonds did prior. I've as much as said that his 2001-05 seasons should be discounted.

Not really my fault that people wanna claim anyone who doesn't outright loathe bonds are 'apologists', 'obsessives'.

I reserve 'scum of the earth' for more pressing matters that go beyond the realm of sport.

Really now, it's just baseball we're talking about here.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Really now, it's just baseball we're talking about here.

That's a good quote for the indifferent fans today.

No, we're talking about what used to Americana and part of the American way of life and the scum that have cheapened the game and insulted all baseball fans and Americans.

[Lidderer]

That's a good quote for the indifferent fans today.

No,were talking about what used to Americana and part of the American way of life and the scum that have cheapened the game and insulted all baseball fans.


yeah, times change.

[DBroncos4life]

Barry Bonds - OF - Giants


After examining Barry Bonds today, Giants training Stan Conte wouldn't back off his original assessment, which was that Bonds would need about six weeks of rehab after his second knee surgery.
''His knee looked the way we expected,'' Conte said today. ''I suspect he'll progress as knee patients do. It looks OK. He went through the regular rehab six days out of surgery.'' Despite Bonds' comments today, it's still rather likely that the slugger will return during May. Mar. 22 - 5:39 pm et
Source: giants.mlb.com

[-Slap-]

The piece of crap will be back sometime in May. As usual, he's trying to gain sympathy. Keep in mind, this was the same asshole who said he's been persecuted as badly as Jackie Robinson.

[Sir Mawn]

The piece of crap will be back sometime in May. As usual, he's trying to gain sympathy. Keep in mind, this was the same asshole who said he's been persecuted as badly as Jackie Robinson.

What he said.

[FADERPROOF]

Has Bonds ever used steroids?

If you answer yes, you are a baseball fan.

If you answer no, you are a Giants fan.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The piece of crap will be back sometime in May. As usual, he's trying to gain sympathy. Keep in mind, this was the same asshole who said he's been persecuted as badly as Jackie Robinson.

If I was a member of the press I'd crash his pity party at every opportunity.


"Hey Barry, is OK if we ask you a question today or are you too tired?"

"Barry, what do you think about the committee's statement of reserving the right to subpoena you at any time?"

"Barry, is there anything you could do or take to speed up your recovery from these knee surgeries?"

"Barry, has your mistress settled on a number yet?"

(May sometime 2005) "Barry, how long do you think it will take to break Hank's record now that you've gotten some rest?"

"Barry, now that you've had some quality family time, is Disney World in your future?"

"Barry, have your nuts dropped again yet?"

[watermock]

How amusing.

This guy has blamed everyone in the book. He's earned his hatred.

Trust me, baseball WANTS a hero. Actually, people are pretty forgiving. He is, without doubt the biggest A-Hole in all of sports, and that takes some effort. It's up and down the line.

Want to know why he is pissed off? He can't juice up to fix that knee. I bet Bonds doesn't hit 20 this year, and will never get over 35 again. He has a fork stuck in his ass, and it's not going to leave.

You can ask anyone here, I don't worship any player. Yes, their personal lives are theirs to enjoy, or they can make their own hell.

Just don't play the blame game of persecution. It's totally pathetic. His mood swings are totally indicitive of heavy steroid use, and withdrawl symptoms are obvious. What the hell do you think threw Barrett Robbins off the wall? He's obviously paranoid and manic at this point.

His latest tirade sounded like a 9 year old that threatens to take the ball and bat away because he hears him mommy calling. Incredibly egocentric. All the classic signs of an imbalanced hormonal system.

I don't have heros. I know they are just men, but there is a standard, or used to be. We are very well conditioned to accept idiotic behavior from athletes that have been pampered their whole lives. Honestly, real fans treat them like children, and think of them like meat. Hero worship died out long ago, at least for me. It's all meat at this point.

All I want is a level playing field. In that respect, the NFL comes the closest of all sports.

[Lidderer]

Has Bonds ever used steroids?

If you answer yes, you are a baseball fan.

If you answer no, you are a Giants fan.

I'm a giants fan and i think he takes steroids.

THEORY SHATTERED

[Lidderer]

He is, without doubt the biggest A-Hole in all of sports, and that takes some effort.

I hate to indulge in this sort of thing, but why exactly is there no doubt?

Honestly, what does he do so assholish?

Being surly to a media-member does not make a man an asshole btw, and even if it is part of the equation, what else has he done to prove himself a bigger asshole?

I think it's safe to say taking steroids does not make one an asshole, and Bonds was considered as much prior to BALCO anyway.

So Mock, how is he the biggest A-hole in all of sports without a doubt?

seriously. And let's please try and avoid the "omg u just dont get it, haha, delusional!" evasive stuff. That's all I ask.

[FADERPROOF]

I'm a giants fan and i think he takes steroids.

THEORY SHATTERED

Youre still defending him.

[watermock]

OK, Your a Giants fan, you agree he has taken steroids, you agree he's an asshole.

Now what is your argument again? Your respect for the Game? The integrity of the Game? His persecution by the Media?

What is it? What's wrong? The media picking on him, making him "tired"? Is "the man" after him, are they trying to disrupt the little arrangement he had with his mistress?

What are you exactly defending? I would agree he didn't have to rub roids on his ass to be an excellent player. But he did. I would agree that he didn't have to be a surley jerk, but he did. I would agree that he could of cared for his family, but he didn't.

Now exactly what are you defending again? He has defrauded his family, He has defrauded the game, he has defrauded the fans, and he most of all, has totally lost his own integrity in a sea of egocentric pity.

Tell me again why he doesn't have it coming?

[-Slap-]

I hate to indulge in this sort of thing, but why exactly is there no doubt?

Honestly, what does he do so assholish?

Being surly to a media-member does not make a man an asshole btw, and even if it is part of the equation, what else has he done to prove himself a bigger asshole?

I think it's safe to say taking steroids does not make one an asshole, and Bonds was considered as much prior to BALCO anyway.

So Mock, how is he the biggest A-hole in all of sports without a doubt?

seriously. And let's please try and avoid the "omg u just dont get it, haha, delusional!" evasive stuff. That's all I ask.

How about having no respect for the men who came before him?

Comparing his self made media troubles to the persecution Jackie Robinson endured? What kind of asshole would do that?

Telling people "don't talk about Babe Ruth no more." That was real classy.

This jagov says the media is against him? Hell, they've been giving him a pass for the last five years. It took the FBI investigation into BALCO to blow this story open. That and B*rry perjuring himself before a grand jury.

Ever heard of Ted Williams?

Teddy Ballgame was the last man to bat .400, hitting .406 in 1941. He didn't win the MVP award that year because a couple sportswriters left him off their ballots entirely, strictly due to their dislike for him personally. Need I mention that Ted Williams interrupted his baseball career twice to fly fighter planes for the United States in WW II and Korea?

http://www.photofile.com/Photos/Albums/Ted_Williams/Images/Ted_Williams_Pilot.JPG

I notice the vengeful media has voted B*nds MVP in the NL the last four years. Everybody with a brain knew B*nds was roiding, but not a single goddamn one of these sportswriters had the balls to leave B*nds off his ballot in protest.

Yeah, there's a real media lynch mob out to get B*rry. What a joke.

[Sir Mawn]

You can't find anything to say yourself about Barry besides 'you hate him'...'he got away with murder'...and 'he is a millionaire'..?

Slappy has been very outspoken regarding Barry. Right or wrong...at least he voices an opinion.

Stop feeding off of him!!! Or at the very least wait till he posts and then you can just post your 'me to'.


Boy you seem troubled. I've voiced my opinion on Barry (come to think of it, I AM VOICING AN OPINION NOW!) what you want is re-stating the obvious again? If it's not clear to you this guy's a clown and a fraud, you need to go back to the study room.

[-Slap-]

yeah let's talk about babe ruth's family-man role-model behaviour.

jesus.

if the sorriest people you've met evaluate a ballplayer based on his performance alone and couldn't care less about his personal life and off-field behaviour, well you must live in valhalla.

Why don't we talk about Babe Ruth? He drank a lot, he whored around a lot, and everybody in the country - except Ty Cobb - worshipped him.

http://www.skills.net.au/roadshow/images/424_7.gif

For one thing, it was a different era. Men consumed a lot more hard liquor in those days. Bill W and his 12 steppers didn't come along until 1939, four years after Babe retired. I wonder why Babe became an alcoholic. Maybe because his mother and father owned a neighborhood bar in Baltimore and he was exposed to drinking at a young age. Since they had to work constantly to eke out a living, Ruth's parents decided to ship him off to a reform school as a youth.

I can kind of understand how a man from that background would have a few rough edges. He was also the most beloved athlete this country has ever seen. His popularity, at its peak, dwarfed anything enjoyed by Ali, Jordan or anyone else. He deserved every bit of it, too.

You didn't see him cursing the media when Frazee sold him to the Yankees, not even when many of the ink stained wretches applauded the move. Babe knew he would have the last laugh.

Now, consider B*rry B*nds. Pampered son of a major league superstar. Top prospect from a young age. Used to having his ass kissed from day one and impatient with anyone who doesn't accomodate him.

I love when B*rry tries to claim his rage is driven by the supposed mistreatment his father suffered. Bobby Bonds was traded eight times, despite physical tools that probably surpassed his son's. B*rry conveniently leaves out that his old man was an alcoholic and a coke fiend, in addition to his record setting strikeout totals and indifferent defense. Nobody gave Bobby Bonds a raw deal and nobody is doing it to B*rry. I'm sorry people are supposedly taunting B*rry's child in the super elite private school he attends, but I'm consoled by the fact that the kid would have probably grown up to be an asshole anyway. He's got the perfect genes for it.

[Lidderer]

Youre still defending him.

Yes, i'm of the belief that taking steroids does not out-and-out make someone beyond defending, particularly so when people bring in outside and, here we go again, UNRELATED issues as though they were synonymous with poor athleticism or whathaveyou.

Barry could be indicted properly on many counts, but the manner in which people do it is ignorant and the lowest form of attack out there.

[Lidderer]

How about having no respect for the men who came before him?

[2 other points that are the same point]


This jagov says the media is against him? Hell, they've been giving him a pass for the last five years. It took the FBI investigation into BALCO to blow this story open. That and B*rry perjuring himself before a grand jury.




I notice the vengeful media has voted B*nds MVP in the NL the last four years. Everybody with a brain knew B*nds was roiding, but not a single goddamn one of these sportswriters had the balls to leave B*nds off his ballot in protest.

Yeah, there's a real media lynch mob out to get B*rry. What a joke.

So let's see: doesn't respect his elders(this of course was based on his invocation of Jackie Robinson(which invocation is painted rather unfairly and out-of-context in your anecdote, as anyone could see that barry was being reverential if anything, but okay), does NOT get media-bashed(not sure this makes him an asshole, in fact not sure at all how it does), and, umm, that was pretty much it I think.

So by not respecting your elders(a tenuous claim at best), he becomes the biggest asshole in sports, "without a doubt".

yeah, no.

[Lidderer]

For one thing, it was a different era.

I totally agree.

[Lidderer]

1. OK, Your a Giants fan, you agree he has taken steroids, you agree he's an asshole.

2. Now what is your argument again? Your respect for the Game? The integrity of the Game? His persecution by the Media?

What is it? What's wrong? The media picking on him, making him "tired"? Is "the man" after him, are they trying to disrupt the little arrangement he had with his mistress?

What are you exactly defending? I would agree he didn't have to rub roids on his ass to be an excellent player. But he did. I would agree that he didn't have to be a surley jerk, but he did. I would agree that he could of cared for his family, but he didn't.

Now exactly what are you defending again? He has defrauded his family, He has defrauded the game, he has defrauded the fans, and he most of all, has totally lost his own integrity in a sea of egocentric pity.

Tell me again why he doesn't have it coming?

1. I don't really think he's an asshole, i can understand why people think his "i don't care about the media" attitude is not 'playing along', but i don't see why caving in to that system isn't anyhting more than a personal choice. I sure as hell wouldn't want that prying personal invasivness surrounding me, so I'm not about to crucify barry for being surly to those who prod. Slap's comments, while impassioned, didn't really change my views; and all they'd likely do is preach to the converted.

2. the rest of the post isn't really dealing with anything specifically said, it's just you enjoying running off in this mock-socratic rhetoric that, while entertaining in a way, isn't really substantive in any way.

Defrauded his family=his family's business, not mine
defrauded his fans=not for 15 years he didnt', and all the juice did was make the ball go further. The guy can flat-out hit, could flat-out hit, and still will. I don't know a single bonds fan who has felt defrauded about the man's career in total(it's not as though when his head suddenly bloated up people didn't have their assumptions buzzing)
lost his own integrity=not for you or I to answer
defrauded the game=please. gimme a break. hyperbolic and ridiculous comments like that are the very things that got you banned from this board, so i suppose it's par for the course.

The guy cheated at baseball when cheating wasn't even really cheating.
Wrong still? hell yes.

Countless other players have done it. Bonds gets the brunt of it because why? because his attitude. We'd never see a mcgwire thread get this long.

The guy was one of the greatest ball players ever, no questioning that, and yet people wanna whitewash over that because of a latter-day indiscretion. I'm not gonna do that. Best LF I've ever seen play the game. No question.

[FADERPROOF]

So let's see: doesn't respect his elders(this of course was based on his invocation of Jackie Robinson(which invocation is painted rather unfairly and out-of-context in your anecdote, as anyone could see that barry was being reverential if anything, but okay), does NOT get media-bashed(not sure this makes him an asshole, in fact not sure at all how it does), and, umm, that was pretty much it I think.

So by not respecting your elders(a tenuous claim at best), he becomes the biggest asshole in sports, "without a doubt".

yeah, no.

How much does Barry pay you a week to polish his knob off?

[Lidderer]

How much does Barry pay you a week to polish his knob off?

try and ignore the fact that it's barry. just imagine the conversation devoid of a set personality. You argue continually against, I argue continually for. There's really no difference in the dedication, it only exists in the feeling you have about teh subject(acceptance vs its opposite).

But yeah, barry isn't classy, whereas gay blowjob jokes? High-brow, obviously.

[FADERPROOF]

try and ignore the fact that it's barry. just imagine the conversation devoid of a set personality. You argue continually against, I argue continually for. There's really no difference in the dedication, it only exists in the feeling you have about teh subject(acceptance vs its opposite).

But yeah, barry isn't classy, whereas gay blowjob jokes? High-brow, obviously.

I'm just trying to sort some reason as to why you would continue to defend a guy that has cheated his way into the record books.

[Lidderer]

How much does Barry pay you a week to polish his knob off?

to be more specific: all i was doing was saying that barry isn't not the biggest asshole in sports "WITHOUT A DOUBT" as your fanatical friend watermock claimed.

That's a big claim, and without much foundation.

Interestingly enough, would someone who claims that bonds is the most hated and assholish athlete of them all (based on scant evidence) be even more likely to be charged with obsession of the degree you impied in your last post? I like the guy, yes. But I don't have him on any pole(queued up for you here) like some people do.

[FADERPROOF]

to be more specific: all i was doing was saying that barry isn't not the biggest asshole in sports "WITHOUT A DOUBT" as your fanatical friend watermock claimed.

That's a big claim, and without much foundation.

Interestingly enough, would someone who claims that bonds is the most hated and assholish athlete of them all (based on scant evidence) be even more likely to be charged with obsession of the degree you impied in your last post? I like the guy, yes. But I don't have him on any pole(queued up for you here) like some people do.

I'm sure you'd feel the same if he wasnt wearing a Giants uniform.

[Lidderer]

I'm just trying to sort some reason as to why you would continue to defend a guy that has cheated his way into the record books.

I've stated several times i don't blame people for demanding an asteriks beside whatever records he has and will break. But he played 16 years of top-notch baseball prior to that and i'm not gonna throw that out the window because of that one particular gaffe. I also think much of the hatred is based on reasons beyond the steroid issue. I have little doubt in my mind that people like Slap(i don't mean you specifically Slap) probably hated bonds long before 2001.

My "defense' of Bonds is really more of an offensive against the non-relevant issues people always try and incorporate into a discussion on his particular merits.

For whatever reason I can't seem to get that across in these 3 pages because the fact that I'm not villifying him seems, to some, to mean that I'm absolving him.

I don't think it's that black and white.

[Lidderer]

I'm sure you'd feel the same if he wasnt wearing a Giants uniform.

I went to Pittsburgh 3 different times to watch him play for the pirates(though I was more of a bonilla, van slyke, bonds triad fan than barry exclusively, oh and jose lind too, OBVIOUSLY)

[-Slap-]

I went to Pittsburgh 3 different times to watch him play for the pirates(though I was more of a bonilla, van slyke, bonds triad fan than barry exclusively, oh and jose lind too, OBVIOUSLY)

I liked when Van Slyke blew the whistle on B*rry relatively early in the process. That was great.

By the way, you're absolutely hilarious to suggest that B*rry's comments about Jackie Robinson were anything but self serving crap. Hell, the lowlife sonofabitch was using his son as a human shield today. Nothing is beneath that piece of garbage.

[Lidderer]

I liked when Van Slyke blew the whistle on B*rry relatively early in the process. That was great.

By the way, you're absolutely hilarious to suggest that B*rry's comments about Jackie Robinson were anything but self serving crap. Hell, the lowlife sonobitch was using his son as a human shield today. Nothing is beneath that piece of garbage.

yeah, clearly no bias coming from the naysayers.

[-Slap-]

yeah, clearly no bias coming from the naysayers.

Clearly you can't distinguish an informed opinion from a biased one.

[watermock]

Yes, i'm of the belief that taking steroids does not out-and-out make someone beyond defending,

You sound like the PETA activist that told Cavuto that she would rescue her dog over a human stranger on a water rafting trip.


...particularly so when people bring in outside and, here we go again, UNRELATED issues as though they were synonymous with poor athleticism or whathaveyou.

What unrelated issues. Name some! We have gone thru every aspect of his behavior bar none. Bring up one thing he has done. The Barry Bonds Foundation? Hell, even Griese managed that, and he was run out of town on a rail. Noone said he wasn't athletic. The point was he unfairly used steroids, (and continued to deny it), while blaming everyone else for his knee, his perception, his romantic problems, and everything else back to Lincoln while piling on about 50 million dollars. Name me one person who said he wasn't athletic before he went roid!

Barry could be indicted properly on many counts, but the manner in which people do it is ignorant and the lowest form of attack out there.

How is it ignorant? More rationalization without substance. What manner do we indict Bonds except the obvious!

So your calling the messenger out? It's the "manner" in which this fraud has been treated is all you have to base your argument with? That's all you have left? He's "tired because the media has it out for him"?

That is an excuse, but your using it as a rationale for proactive behavior. It was Bond's behavior that brought the wrath of the media. As I have said before, the Media loves a darling, look at Tom Brady. They even tried with Bonds. Don't you remember the "kindler, gentler Barry" that he hired a PR consultant for to spruce up his image two years ago? Get a clue. Unless you can produce one argument that doesn't invoke assertions of "ignorance and lowest form of attack" without making an argument to refute such, your going to be kicked around mercilessly.

[Lidderer]

Clearly you can't distinguish an informed opinion from a biased one.

you use hyperbole and intimate that there is only one way to interpret every situation you bring up.

That's biased. And it just makes you come across stubbourn.
that doesn't mean it can't be informative as well.

[-Slap-]

you use hyperbole and intimate that there is only one way to interpret every situation you bring up.

That's biased. And it just makes you come across stubbourn.
that doesn't mean it can't be informative as well.

Quoting the man is hyperbole?

I'm not willing to twist myself into a pretzel to minimize the stupidity of B*rry's arrogant comments. Seems to work for you, though. You'll have plenty of opportunities to defend his record, though. The rest of your life, I'll wager. This isn't going away. Its only going to get worse.

:)

[Lidderer]

Quoting the man is hyperbole?

I'm not willing to twist myself into a pretzel to minimize the stupidity of B*rry's arrogant comments. Seems to work for you, though. You'll have plenty of opportunities to defend his record, though. The rest of your life, I'll wager. This isn't going away. Its only going to get worse.

:)

You've missed everything i've said.

[Pat Bowlen]

Lidderer, you know it's bad when watermock is owning your ass at every angle.

[-Slap-]

Before its all said and done, this asshole is probably going to pull some jail time.......:laugh:

Bonds takes a hit

Paper: 'Gal pal' says Barry used

BY T.J. QUINN
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

A woman claiming to be Barry Bonds' longtime girlfriend has been pulled into the BALCO investigation, another sign that the Giants star is under investigation for possible perjury or financial wrongdoing, as the Daily News first reported two weeks ago.
The San Francisco Chronicle reported yesterday that Kimberly Bell, who claims to have been Bonds' extramarital girlfriend from 1994 to 2003 and is writing a book about their alleged relationship, had told the BALCO grand jury Thursday that Bonds had admitted using steroids. The paper cited "two sources familiar with an account of her testimony."

Her testimony is believed to be be part of a case the federal government is pursuing against Bonds for perjury.

"Things look very bad for him right now," a senior Major League Baseball official said yesterday.

Bell's attorney also raised the possibility yesterday that Bonds could be investigated for either money laundering or tax evasion. "It's clear from the subpoena that they are looking at Barry Bonds and the possibility he may have given untruthful testimony to the grand jury," attorney Hugh Levine told the Chronicle. "And the case is being investigated by an IRS agent, and that speaks for itself."

The 35-year-old Bell first aired her charges last month when she spoke to Fox News' Geraldo Rivera.

Bonds told the grand jury in December 2003 that he had not knowingly taken any anabolic steroids or other illegal performance-enhancing drugs. Part of his testimony was overheard by The News, and a transcript was later leaked to the Chronicle.

After Bonds was left off the witness list for Thursday's congressional hearings on steroid use in baseball, sources told The News he had been excluded because he was being investigated for perjury. Bonds' BALCO testimony was designed to give him plausible deniability, but several attorneys who reviewed his testimony said he could be prosecuted for perjury if he indeed took steroids.

"I've seen people prosecuted for less," U.S. Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.) told The News two weeks ago.

According to the Chronicle, Bell testified that Bonds had told her about his steroid use before the 2000 season, about the time his body began to undergo dramatic changes. Bell reportedly said Bonds was using a noninjectible form of the drug, which would be consistent with the use of THG, the designer steroid at the heart of the BALCO scandal.

The paper also said Bell had testified that Bonds then began to suffer baldness, acne and other physical changes consistent with steroid abuse. She also reportedly said she had never seen Bonds use drugs.

The source of the IRS' interest in the case might have been .kindled from another tidbit Bell reportedly told the grand jury: Bonds would often take cash in exchange for sports memorabilia sales, sometimes giving her large amounts, including $80,000 in 2001 for a down payment on a house in Scottsdale, Ariz., near the Giants' spring training facility. The government also subpoenaed Bell's bank records, correspondence with Bonds and about 90 minutes of voice mail messages that she said Bonds had left on her answering machine, according to the Chronicle.

Michael Rains, Bonds' attorney, said his client never had used banned substances and had never made big cash payments to Bell. He said he no grave concern, "none at all," about the grand jury inquiry. The source of the dispute between Bell and Bonds was apparently money. Bell sought $100,000 from Bonds, but his attorney has accused her of attempted extortion.

[-Slap-]

Hurray for Barry; now just go away

BY DAVID WHITLEY

The Orlando Sentinel

(KRT) - It wasn't his intention, but Barry Bonds finally did something noble on Tuesday. He limped away from spring training, and said there's a chance he won't play this season.

The greatest hitter(ASTERISK) of our time might never play again.

Baseball should be so lucky.

The sport needs to start reconstructing itself out of the steroid shambles. A good start would be for Bud Selig to go back to selling cars (be sure to check that odometer), and Don Fehr to resign and join Michael Jackson's defense team.

But the best way to get the focus off steroids would be if a certain bald, bloated 40-year-old with a mid-life acne crisis vanished quietly into a big pile of flaxseed.

Bonds' pursuit of Hank Aaron's home run record officially became a national joke with last week's Congressional hearings. Bonds didn't attend, but he is the poster child for steroids.

Given the political climate, Congress might pass an emergency law to keep him from batting again after he gets to 713(ASTERISK) home runs. If a federal court threw that out, how will his 756th home run be received?

When Aaron broke Ruth's mark, two kooky kids circled the bases with him. When Bonds breaks Aaron's, a couple of IRS agents might serve him an arrest warrant as he rounds second base.

The quicker baseball can get past Barry, the better off it will be. America would be spared more of the sniveling nonsense that Bonds spewed Tuesday.

"You guys wanted to hurt me bad enough, you finally got me," he said. "I'm mentally drained. I'm tired of my kids crying."

You guys, of course, are the media. And by extension, all of you fans who wanted an answer to perhaps the biggest question of our sporting time.

In Bonds' self-centered world, there is no room for personal responsibility. The media apparently (allegedly) shoot him full of juice. The media apparently had a nine-year affair with someone other than Mrs. Bonds.

Maybe that's why your kids are crying, Barry.

His philandering would normally be a private matter. Then the ex-girlfriend testified recently in the BALCO probe. She reportedly said Bonds told her all about his steroid binges. That's opened him up to perjury charges because he told the grand jury he never knowingly took anything.

She also said Bonds gave her $80,000 cash for a house down payment. Now the IRS has subpoenaed her financial records. Like Bonds, Al Capone was cigar-deep in illegal stimulants. But even he couldn't beat an income-tax evasion rap.

Given all that, my knee would probably hurt, too. Bonds said his doesn't feel right after last Tuesday's surgery. If you didn't know better, you might recall how steroids help athletes return to action more quickly.

You might suspect that no longer taking them might hamper somebody's recovery. You might even suspect that somebody might be dodging testing and having to justify a decline in productivity.

Nah. So when will Barry be back?

"I don't know," he said. "Hopefully next season. Hopefully the middle of this season."

Hopefully never.

It's really sad how all this is turning out. For all Bonds' churlishness, most of America would have gone along for the great home run ride. Now every time he stepped into the batter's box, it would be like another steroid-cream pie in baseball's face.

So please, Barry, save your strength for depositions or feeling vindictive toward all those evil reporters and curious fans who brought you down.

"You wanted me to jump off a bridge," he said. "I finally did."

No, we just wanted the truth.

So don't go away mad.

But for the good of the game, just go away.

[Lidderer]

Lidderer, you know it's bad when watermock is owning your ass at every angle.

he mistook what i said as absolving bonds. NOt my fault he believes everything has to be one way or the other.

[Lidderer]

I was waiting for david whitney of the orlando sentinel to finally weigh-in on this topic

[-Slap-]

I was waiting for david whitney of the orlando sentinel to finally weigh-in on this topic

There are still jocksniff hacks like Bob Nightengale or Dan Lebetard that will be more than willing to grovel at B*rry's feet no matter what happens.

[Lidderer]

There are still jocksniff hacks like Bob Nightengale or Dan Lebetard that will be more than willing to grovel at B*rry's feet no matter what happens.

god i hate lebetard

[-Slap-]

Giants endure another bad day in the Bonds market

BY TIM KAWAKAMI

Knight Ridder Newspapers


SAN JOSE, Calif. - (KRT) - Now the Giants face the consequences of their blindly co-dependent relationship with an aging, hobbling, steroid-deprived, self-pitying, federally investigated sourpuss and theoretical adulterer/tax dodger - who, by the way, is also one of the greatest baseball players ever.

Of course, during the Giants' Barry Bonds Era, that has been the most powerful and effectively deployed ``by the way'' in the history of sports.

This was a ``by the way'' that made up for Bonds' personality prickles, produced unforgettable home-run moments and induced strictly short-term World Series dreams.

Lo and behold, on Tuesday we got a new ``by the way'' for Bonds: The Giants are very good on paper, but by the way, Bonds said that he might miss much of the 2005 season, or more.

Why? His knee isn't recovering fast enough from two recent surgeries and his feelings have been wounded by what he perceives as media and government injustices.

Most recently, an alleged former mistress reportedly testified that Bonds might have violated tax laws and that he told her he had used steroids. Was that the straw that broke the legend's back?

``You wanted me to jump off the bridge,'' Bonds said Tuesday in Scottsdale, Ariz. ``I finally have jumped.''

This is typical, I-am-the-center-of-the-world-foo-on-you Bonds exasperation. Maybe he'll calm down today and plot out a realistic return by June. Maybe this was just a bad day to talk. But even in the most optimistic scenario, Bonds, 40, is facing many bad days when he can least afford them.

With his knee. (What if he works and works and still comes back in July swinging like Marvin Benard?)

With the IRS, Victor Conte and the federal courts. (What more do the feds have on him? What's the endgame?)

With his wife, perhaps. With the media. With himself, at long last.

None of this is good news for the Giants, who have never wanted to deal with the prospect of Bonds' baseball mortality or the methods by which he might have prolonged it.

Bonds is the Giants' sun, moon and resident immortal. They stayed near the top of the National League by the grace of Bonds.

Peter Magowan and his lieutenants ignored his weaknesses, explained away his inability to show up for the team picture, allegedly helped book hotel rooms for his girlfriend and coddled Bonds in every way.

They made a choice: Having Bonds was worth it. The Giants can't be faulted for the decision, because SBC Park was always filled and the Giants were always competitive.

But each year Bonds got older, and each off-season the Giants surrounded him with older players to make one last run. It was an increasingly desperate choice.

There is no Plan B where the Giants and Bonds are concerned. This off-season, the Giants acquired Omar Vizquel, Moises Alou and Mike Matheny, all nearing 40, all perfect for the One More Run Syndrome.

Rebuild? Not with Bonds batting clean-up, demanding protection and watching the window of opportunity shut.

Instead, the Giants planned ceremonies to salute Bonds' epic achievements, they penciled in 45 homers, a .340 average, 200 walks, an MVP season and 90-95 victories.

Is it possible for the Giants to plop Pedro Feliz into left field and still stay in the race until Bonds is ready for action? Yes, but eventually, that gambit will be over.

Last September, the Giants guaranteed Bonds his $18 million salary for 2006, erasing the clause that would have forced Bonds to make 400 plate appearances in 2005 to get the money.

Back then, General Manager Brian Sabean said there was no risk because Bonds would get to 400 appearances ``in his sleep.''

Oops. Now the Giants don't have the option of wiping away Bonds' salary and seeing if they can buy a younger hitter. Now the blind commitment to Bonds might be coming back to bite Magowan.

If I know Bonds, he will pocket every cent of the $38 million owed to him through the end of the 2006 season, whether he is limping or not.

In December 2003, as the first serious Balco-Bonds reports were emerging, I asked Sabean if the Giants had any questions that Bonds needed to answer for them about steroids.

``That's not even a question,'' Sabean said. ``There's no reason to answer it.''

I understood the mood of denial. I disagreed, but I understood that the Giants were trapped. Willfully, stubbornly, successfully trapped by Bonds' greatness and his great question marks.

They've had the upside. Tuesday might have begun the downturn, heading swiftly to the Bonds Recession.

[Lidderer]

actually that should read more like a screenplay

god: i hate lebetard

[Lidderer]

[opinion article]
[opinion article]
[opinion article]
[opinion article]

[-Slap-]

[opinion article]
[opinion article]
[opinion article]
[opinion article]

Requests?

:)

[Lidderer]

What unrelated issues. Name some! We have gone thru every aspect of his behavior bar none.
you just did it for me.

Bring up one thing he has done.
That would be sort of hypocritical


Name me one person who said he wasn't athletic before he went roid!



3-time mvp, 8 time gold glover, 400/400 man.

That's all you have left? He's "tired because the media has it out for him"?

you gotta be kidding me.

It was Bond's behavior that brought the wrath of the media.

Yeah, he didn't play along. Can't say I blame him at all. Said it plenty of times and we established this long ago: people have different reasons for liking a ballplayer, but it doesn't mean those reasons are good. He's a BALL player, not your buddy, not your enemy. He's just baseball, everything else has nothing to do with it.

Unless you can produce one argument that doesn't invoke assertions of "ignorance and lowest form of attack" without making an argument to refute such, your going to be kicked around mercilessly.

Those seem to be the tactics here though. And I believe i did an effective enough job at pointing out why those arguements were petty. Mind you, that seems self-evident, so it req'd little from me.

Anyhow, the arguement here was decided by all parties before it ever was defined, so maybe enough about this two-way street.

[Bronco LB 59]

He's a BALL player, not your buddy, not your enemy. He's just baseball, everything else has nothing to do with it.

Fair enough. You think fans should critique Barroid strictly between the lines and ignore the fact he is a jerk.

I don't like Barroid because he doesn't respect the game. Steroids aside, Barroid is a disgrace to the gamesmanship of baseball.

I remember in the past, Barroid stood there motionless in left and watched a drive sail over his head that he thought would clear the fence. The fly ends up bouncing off the outfield fence and Barroid is scrambling to prevent a triple. What about the countless times, he stood at home plate admiring one of his blasts and the ball ends up bouncing off the fence. Barroid is limited to a single when he should have a double and possibly a triple.

Let's not forget, that Barroid has shown up the pitcher a myriad of times while going deep. It's too bad he has a special halo around his head because any other average player would take a fastball in his ribs during his next at-bat. Barroid is lucky he didn't play in his father's era, because Don Drysdale and Bob Gibson would have thrown the heat at him with malicious intent.

It's too bad Sandy Alderson and Bud Selig let Barroid get away with murder for wearing his elbow armor on an annual basis when its against the rules to do so unless you have special medical clearance. Well Barroid has "lifetime VIP clearance" and he's still a big baby when pitchers throw inside at him.
I remember in the early 90s, a young pitcher hit Barroid with a pitch and he told the media after the game, if the same hurler hit him again in the future, he would run out to the mound with the bat. He also added that he didn't care if MLB banned for him for it.

Barroid is a great player. There's no doubt about it but if you want to admire a "hot dog" who half asses it all the time and doesn't respect the opposing players and his very own teammates, be my guest.

You can take Barroid on your all-time team of baseball greats and watch him divide your locker room and never lead your team to a championship.

I will gladly settle for "The Splendid Splinter" in left and my team will kick your team's ass!

[watermock]

I would gladly settle for "The Splendid Sphinkter" in left as well.

[FADERPROOF]

Fair enough. You think fans should critique Barroid strictly between the lines and ignore the fact he is a jerk.

I don't like Barroid because he doesn't respect the game. Steroids aside, Barroid is a disgrace to the gamesmanship of baseball.

I remember in the past, Barroid stood there motionless in left and watched a drive sail over his head that he thought would clear the fence. The fly ends up bouncing off the outfield fence and Barroid is scrambling to prevent a triple. What about the countless times, he stood at home plate admiring one of his blasts and the ball ends up bouncing off the fence. Barroid is limited to a single when he should have a double and possibly a triple.

Let's not forget, that Barroid has shown up the pitcher a myriad of times while going deep. It's too bad he has a special halo around his head because any other average player would take a fastball in his ribs during his next at-bat. Barroid is lucky he didn't play in his father's era, because Don Drysdale and Bob Gibson would have thrown the heat at him with malicious intent.

It's too bad Sandy Alderson and Bud Selig let Barroid get away with murder for wearing his elbow armor on an annual basis when its against the rules to do so unless you have special medical clearance. Well Barroid has "lifetime VIP clearance" and he's still a big baby when pitchers throw inside at him.
I remember in the early 90s, a young pitcher hit Barroid with a pitch and he told the media after the game, if the same hurler hit him again in the future, he would run out to the mound with the bat. He also added that he didn't care if MLB banned for him for it.

Barroid is a great player. There's no doubt about it but if you want to admire a "hot dog" who half asses it all the time and doesn't respect the opposing players and his very own teammates, be my guest.

You can take Barroid on your all-time team of baseball greats and watch him divide your locker room and never lead your team to a championship.

I will gladly settle for "The Splendid Splinter" in left and my team will kick your team's ass!


I still loved when Roger Clemens called Barry out on that elbow armor, and then hit him dead square on it when they played each other.

[-Slap-]

I still loved when Roger Clemens called Barry out on that elbow armor, and then hit him dead square on it when they played each other.

Prior drilled the sonofabitch the first time he faced him, too. Then he motioned B*rry to the mound when the prima donna asshole glared at him. Fell in love with the kid on the spot.

[-Slap-]

Fair enough. You think fans should critique Barroid strictly between the lines and ignore the fact he is a jerk.

I don't like Barroid because he doesn't respect the game. Steroids aside, Barroid is a disgrace to the gamesmanship of baseball.

I remember in the past, Barroid stood there motionless in left and watched a drive sail over his head that he thought would clear the fence. The fly ends up bouncing off the outfield fence and Barroid is scrambling to prevent a triple. What about the countless times, he stood at home plate admiring one of his blasts and the ball ends up bouncing off the fence. Barroid is limited to a single when he should have a double and possibly a triple.

Let's not forget, that Barroid has shown up the pitcher a myriad of times while going deep. It's too bad he has a special halo around his head because any other average player would take a fastball in his ribs during his next at-bat. Barroid is lucky he didn't play in his father's era, because Don Drysdale and Bob Gibson would have thrown the heat at him with malicious intent.

It's too bad Sandy Alderson and Bud Selig let Barroid get away with murder for wearing his elbow armor on an annual basis when its against the rules to do so unless you have special medical clearance. Well Barroid has "lifetime VIP clearance" and he's still a big baby when pitchers throw inside at him.
I remember in the early 90s, a young pitcher hit Barroid with a pitch and he told the media after the game, if the same hurler hit him again in the future, he would run out to the mound with the bat. He also added that he didn't care if MLB banned for him for it.

Barroid is a great player. There's no doubt about it but if you want to admire a "hot dog" who half asses it all the time and doesn't respect the opposing players and his very own teammates, be my guest.

You can take Barroid on your all-time team of baseball greats and watch him divide your locker room and never lead your team to a championship.

I will gladly settle for "The Splendid Splinter" in left and my team will kick your team's ass!

Best post of the thread.

[delany]

I remember in the past, Barroid stood there motionless in left and watched a drive sail over his head that he thought would clear the fence. The fly ends up bouncing off the outfield fence and Barroid is scrambling to prevent a triple.

So we can assume that the 8 Gold Gloves Barry has won were because of his stellar fieldplay that you are describing?

Do you hate with equal fevor every other ballplayer that has ever not run out a basehit?

It's too bad Sandy Alderson and Bud Selig let Barroid get away with murder for wearing his elbow armor on an annual basis when its against the rules to do so unless you have special medical clearance. Well Barroid has "lifetime VIP clearance" and he's still a big baby when pitchers throw inside at him. I remember in the early 90s, a young pitcher hit Barroid with a pitch and he told the media after the game, if the same hurler hit him again in the future, he would run out to the mound with the bat. He also added that he didn't care if MLB banned for him for it.

And you are critizing Barry because MLB allows him to wear elbow armor? How exactly is that HIS fault? Blame MLB.

Barry also got upset when somebody hit him and said he would run out to the mound if hit again?

Come on! That puts him with just about everybody else that has ever been hit!

Fair enough. You think fans should critique Barroid strictly between the lines and ignore the fact he is a jerk....

I don't like Barroid because he doesn't respect the game. You can take Barroid on your all-time team of baseball greats and watch him divide your locker room and never lead your team to a championship. I will gladly settle for "The Splendid Splinter" in left and my team will kick your team's ass!

How many championships did The Splendid Splinter win? You think that he wasn't a jerk? Do you think that spitting at fans like Ted has done is ok?

[delany]

counterpoint article for Slappys...

By Mike Celizic
NBCSports.com contributor
Updated: 6:30 p.m. ET March 11, 2005
I don’t know where to go with this any more, nor do I know what else to say. But it’s no surprise that Barry Bonds took something to make him bigger and stronger and better. It’s no surprise Jason Giambi took human growth hormones and steroids. And it’s no surprise this is allegedly the biggest story in sports since big stories were invented.

It’s a big story because we are all hypocrites. People cheat. We know that, and still we deny it. So when we find out that what we both know and deny is true, we have to react with shock and amazement. We can’t help it. We’re wired to react that way.

So Barry Bonds may have cheated? That’s a story? Like we didn’t know?

Give me a break. Finding out that Bonds may have taken banned substances — even if you want to buy into his excuse that he didn’t know he was doing anything wrong — is a surprise on the level of discovering that the sun rises in the east, that two-year-olds like sweets, that fox terriers bark at strangers and that it’s a bad idea to tell a woman she’s got a fat backside.

You can’t even talk about taking away his records or diminishing them. He did what he was allowed to do. No one can get punished for that. If you take away his MVPs and home runs, then take away Don Sutton’s and Gaylord Perry’s Hall of Fame plaques. Take way Norm Cash’s batting title. Take away Mike Scott’s perfect game. They all cheated, just as surely as Bonds and Giambi did, as surely as Ken Caminiti did. As surely as more players that you want to know about did.

What Bonds and these others did was deeply rooted in the game. Pete Rose and most players of his generation couldn’t take batting practice without first downing a handful of “greenies” — amphetamines. Willie Mays kept a bottle of “red juice” in his locker — the same stuff as greenies, but in a liquid form. We can’t say Hank Aaron was clean, because we don’t know what stimulants he took, if any. We can’t vouch for anyone’s purity.

That’s the reality, folks. And if Bonds is now revealed as a cheater, where is the element of surprise? We’ve known he wasn’t natural for half a decade or more. But we kept watching him and writing about him and calling him the greatest thing since pine tar.

So did he go from great to a fraud? Or did we go from incredibly naïve to equally judgmental?

We have no right to condemn Bonds. Not after we marveled at his talent. Not after we declared him one of the best of all time. And especially not after he’s admitted to doing things that baseball never — until last year — said he couldn’t do.

This, friends, is not a story. Barry Bonds, we learn, took things that made him bigger and stronger. He continues to deny culpability, saying he didn’t know what he was taking were illegal steroids.

All he’s saying now — or said to a grand jury — it that he followed the advice of a coach, didn’t ask exactly what he was ingesting and rubbing on his body and got bigger than he could get naturally. And he didn’t think it was illegal.

What balderdash. It’s like aiming a gun at someone, pulling the trigger, watching that person fall, then protesting that you didn’t know the gun was loaded.

The denials are meaningless. But, so, too, are the charges. Bonds took “cream” and “clear.” Then he hit a whole lot of home runs and won so many MVP’s you got the feeling he was playing a different game than everyone else.

You can call it cheating. But baseball called it legal. There was no law against taking every drug in the CVS warehouse, no law against doing whatever you could to get stronger and better. There is still virtually no law; you get tested once a year on a date you either know exactly or are alerted to.

If you can’t dodge that test, you’re dumber than a driver who sees a cop sitting on the side of the road a half mile ahead and still blows past him at the speed limit plus 20.

It’s not just baseball, it’s life. If you’re running for president and you can get the Supreme Court to help you to a win, you do it. Or if it takes cemeteries in Chicago and Jersey City to vote en masse for you, you accept the votes.

I’m not saying it’s fair. It just is.

If there were a drug that could make us write like Mark Twain — my hero — or H. L Mencken, whose name is as foreign to most kids in this business as Iron Man McGinnity’s is to baseball players, don’t kid yourselves. We’d all be taking it.

A lot of writers of my generation grew up when Gonzo journalism and Hunter S. Thompson ruled. We took the same drugs and tried to write the same way. We couldn’t, because Thompson was a great writer before his first hit or toke or snort or whatever he was doing. We weren’t going to catch him, no matter how stupid we tried to make ourselves through liberal application of controlled substances.

If you were a little older, Red Smith was the standard, and Red never took anything stronger that vodka and tonic. I’ve poured down a lot of vodka’s and tonic — no fruit — because that’s the way Red drank it, and also because there might be a vitamin in that slice of lime, and you don’t want one of those to enter your system. But despite this, I can’t write three words as good as any three Red put down.

The point is if you’re good, you’re good. Nothing you take is going to make you bad. It might kill you early, but it won’t take away your talent. And if there is something you can take to make you better, the great ones are still going to be great and the good ones are still going to be willing to mortgage their souls to be in the same area code as their betters.

Barry Bonds is a great baseball player. Last year, he hit 45 home runs and struck out 41 times. I don’t know what he did or took to help the balls fly out of the park. But I do know there is no drug that can keep you from striking out. If Bonds had played in Ruth’s era, he’d have hit more home runs than he hits now.

That’s a fact, because in Ruth’s day, they didn’t put you on base two out of every five times you came to the plate. They didn’t walk you intentionally nearly 100 times a year. They didn’t have relief pitchers who could get God out four out of five times.

What they had was starting pitchers getting tired who threw the ball over the plate and made you beat them. They had pitchers who didn’t nibble in the second inning. Ruth hit all those home runs because he got a lot of pitches to hit. Bonds hit his despite having no pitches to hit.

But here’s something few people talk about, and it has as much to do with Bonds’ success as any drug he may have taken, wittingly or not. It’s that piece of armor on his elbow. Bonds and other hitters can hang over the plate and dig in with no fear of getting hit, because the armor stops it from hurting. And, if a pitcher throws too far inside, the pitcher can get thrown out of the game.

So if you want Bonds or anyone else to play fair, forget the drugs. Tell him he can’t wear that pad on his arm and elbow. Then tell the pitchers to go ahead and throw high and tight, the same way Don Drysdale did, without fear of ejection and/or suspension. All the ‘roids in the world won’t protect your elbow, and they won’t make it easier to hit the dirt to keep from getting hit.

Baseball could do a lot of things. One is to have a meaningful policy on drugs and cheating. Another is to make batters stand up there without body armor. A third is to give pitchers the right to throw inside.

Adopt any of those policies, and I’ll care about Bonds again. But don’t bore me with sanctimonious drivel about abuses everyone knew existed. Bonds has done what he’s done under the rules of the game. If the game doesn’t like it, it can change the rules. Otherwise, everyone should just shut up.

[FADERPROOF]

So we can assume that the 8 Gold Gloves Barry has won were because of his stellar fieldplay that you are describing?

Do you hate with equal fevor every other ballplayer that has ever not run out a basehit?

Doing those lazy acts do not count as errors, so he can still win Gold Gloves because his fielding percentage will not be effected one way or the other.

Not running out a basehit compared to showboating a homerun that doesnt clear the fence are two entirely different thing, and no I don;t need to explain why they are, you should know and if not, you're just too much of an idiot to understand


And you are critizing Barry because MLB allows him to wear elbow armor? How exactly is that HIS fault? Blame MLB.

Barry also got upset when somebody hit him and said he would run out to the mound if hit again?

Come on! That puts him with just about everybody else that has ever been hit!

Broncos LB 52 said CLEARLY that it was Anderson and Selig that let him get away with it, try ***cing reading for once. Again, your reading comprehension skills take a turn for the worst with your Barry homerism, he said he would charge the mound WITH THE BAT. Ever hear of Marty McSorley? He's a hockey player that whacked Dinald Brashear with his stick, now it may seem like it's alright because hes a hockey player using his equipment, but that is assault now and charges were brought up. So not only does he nt care that MLB kicks him out of the league, he wants to go out there and asault someone.

I've been hit with a ball before, I've gotten pissed off about it, I never ocne thought "Hey, if I get hit again, I'll bring my bat out to the mound and pretend that the pitchers head is a ****ing mailbox!" That doesnt put Barry in the same category as everyone else, not in the least





How many championships did The Splendid Splinter win? You think that he wasn't a jerk? Do you think that spitting at fans like Ted has done is ok?

Spitting at fans and cheating at the game are two different things again. Plus, I've never heard one story about Ted Williams being a locker room cancer and a guy that is an asshole to his very own teammates. Sure, he acted like an ass on some occasions with the fans and he took the heat for it(as slap said about people not voting for him), but he never got his edge off illegal steroids.

When you want to inform us how spitting at fans is the same as popping roids then be our guest. But in the meantime, don't call yourself a baseball fan because anyone who wants to defend this guy who has slapped baseball in the face for breaking records while using illegal steroids is no baseball fan.

[Bronco LB 59]

So we can assume that the 8 Gold Gloves Barry has won were because of his stellar fieldplay that you are describing?

Do you hate with equal fevor every other ballplayer that has ever not run out a basehit?

Barroid is indeed a great defensive talent. I never said he wasn't. Let's not forget his greatest defensive memory was a piss poor attempt to gun down the fleet footed Sid Bream in game 7 of the 1992 NLCS.

Yes, I do get on other players for not running out basehits. I have called out Ken Griffey Jr. for the very same reasons in the past. I don't expect every ballplayer to haul ass down the line like Charlie Hustle or Lenny Dykstra.

Barroid has taken his half ass play to another level. I have never seen another player stand in left field with his back to the fence and watch the ball bounce off the outfield wall without moving one millimeter. No other player could get away with that crap without getting scolded by his manager and losing respect from his teammates. Because he is Barry "F*CKIN" Bonds he gets away with it.

Baseball is full of lazy "hot dog" players, but Barroid has taken "hot dogging" to an elite level unsurpassed by anybody else.

And you are critizing Barry because MLB allows him to wear elbow armor? How exactly is that HIS fault? Blame MLB.

I did blame MLB by calling out Sandy Alderson and Selig. Barroid is exploiting the rules, more power to him. I was merely pointing out in my original post that Barroid pushes the limits of sportsmanship and baseball etiquette but he still has the nerve to cry like a bitch when an opposing player throws at him with body armor on his elbow.

Barry also got upset when somebody hit him and said he would run out to the mound if hit again? Come on! That puts him with just about everybody else that has ever been hit!

There's a huge difference from charging the mound like a man and talking about bringing a bat out there. I guess it runs in the San Francisco Giant family.

How many championships did The Splendid Splinter win? You think that he wasn't a jerk? Do you think that spitting at fans like Ted has done is ok?

Ted Williams played from 1939 to 1960. Nevermind the Yankees won 15 pennants during Teddy Ballgame's career. There was no wild card at the time. You either won the regular season or you stayed home.

I never said Williams was a perfect person, but you will be digging a ditch to nowhere if you want to compare his character with Barroid. Teddy Ballgame was apart of America's "Greatest Generation" and he deserves all the accolades he receives for taking two separate tours of duty. The fact that Teddy was the Honorable John Glenn's wingman in combat missions is worthy of the utmost repsect.

Since you are not too impressed with a true American hero like Ted Willliams, I will just have to go to my bench and kick your team's ass with "Stan the Man".

[-Slap-]

How many championships did The Splendid Splinter win? You think that he wasn't a jerk? Do you think that spitting at fans like Ted has done is ok?

Ever heard of the Yankees? Do you understand the advantages they had in acquiring and burying talent back in the old days before the reserve clause? Of course you don't. That would require knowledge and respect for the history of the game and you possess none of those qualities.

Go ahead and disparage Ted Williams to try and make your asshole hero look better. I'm sure B*rry would have interrupted his career twice to fly fighter planes in service to his country.

If you want to talk about a real asshole from the old days, look no further than B*rry's godfather. At those autograph shows, not even DiMaggio could equal Mays' level of rudeness to the fans. Willie would sooner die than make eye contact with a fan, but Teddy Ballgame was more than willing to talk hitting or flyfishing with anyone.

Stop trying to talk about the oldtimers because you don't know jack**** about anything. Content yourself with blaming everybody except B*rry for B*rry's problems.

[TheDave]

See i grew up thinking that cheating was just part of the game... Corking the bats, vasaline on the ball, stealing signs...

To me baseball was always like autosports "if your not cheating your not trying"


And before anyone thinks i'm defending Bonds, i'm not, as far as i'm concerned it couldn't happen to a nicer guy...

[-Slap-]

Since you are not too impressed with a true American hero like Ted Willliams, I will just have to go to my bench and kick your team's ass with "Stan the Man".

All time greatest Polish left fielders:

1 - Musial

2 - Yaz

3 - Luzinski

[-Slap-]

From SI's Ten Spot:

It's not a secret that Bonds is no media favorite, primarily because he treats members of the press as if they're a lower life form. His latest bizarre outburst won't do much to mend any fences. The most offensive part of his interview was the way that Bonds used his 15-year-old son, Nikolai, in an effort to portray the media as the heavy and Bonds and his family as the victims. Just in case anyone missed the symbolism of Bonds showing up with his son, he actually asked to include Nikolai in the camera's glare. With a cameraman pulled in for a tight shot on Bonds -- after all, he's the baseball player and public figure -- the slugger asked, "Can you get my son in this too, not just on me?" Then, lest anyone miss his point, he added: "So you can show the pain that you're causing my whole family." Please. Bonds is in a mess of his own creation. Did the media invent the BALCO investigation? Or concoct the mistress that reportedly testified to a grand jury last week that he told her he used steroids back in 2000? If we did, I must confess I missed that meeting.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/pete_mcentegart/03/23/ten.spot/tx_bondsfamily.jpg

Manipulative scumbag. I love the Barry Sanders jersey on the kid, too. Could B*rry retire prematurely, too? Wouldn't that be just horrible? What a transparent ****ing asshole.

[FADERPROOF]

From SI's Ten Spot:



http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/pete_mcentegart/03/23/ten.spot/tx_bondsfamily.jpg

Manipulative scumbag. I love the Barry Sanders jersey on the kid, too. Could B*rry retire prematurely, too? Wouldn't that be just horrible? What a transparent ****ing asshole.

I'm no Skip Bayless fan, but I watched him and Woody Paige talk about this earlier on 1st and 10 segment of Cold Pizza and both kept talking about how Barry has used his family for years to shield himself.

Bayless truly believes that Bonds' kid wore the Barry Sanders jersey as a symbol. Skip also started out by saying that Barry should be a nominee for an osca after that performance yesterday. Telling the cameramen to zoom out and get a glimpse of the pain that it's cause his son and how bad he looks right now about the situation smells of a trap.

Skip and Woody both went on to say that ever sicne they've covered him(Skip is a SF Chronicle writer so he's been with Barry and the Giants for years and years now) that by the time the game was over and the media was allowed in the lockerroom, Barry was already dressed to leave with his family and would use his family as a shield to protect himself from having to answer questions, instead he'd use the "Come on guys, I'm here with my family, I jsut want to be with them" comments so they'd hopefully lay off asking him anything out of respect for his wife and kids.

Woody also went onto say that this past offseason with the BALCO trials, former girlfriend/mistress coming out and saying that he used steroids, along with the congress getting involved and how bad Mark McGwire and others have looked, that he is realizing that he CAN'T break Hank Aaron's record. It's finally getting through to him that people's perception of him are alreayd made up and as he continues to close in on 755, the hate and perception of him will just keep growing worse and worse, he's finally coming to grips that the homerun record is not for him and he shouldn't get it.

Now these are jsut 2 mens opinion, but 2 men that have known Barry anf have covered Barry for a real, real long time, it's safe to say that both have at least some truth to what they said.

[Riddi]

So did his roid use win him his 1st 3 MVP's? Did they make him steal 500 bases? How about the 8 gold gloves he got by 1997. Bottom line the guy was HOF before any questions of roid use. If you ever went to dodger stadium, they barry chants were there since 1993.

I know none of us has gained weight or filled out with age.... even working out 4-6 days a week.

What I see is alot of hatred because of drug use, But why are the same people that are crying about barry not saying anything about McGwire, Sammy(i did not know the bat was corked)Sosa, Lenny Dykstra and Cammi and all the others either that have admitted using or been accused of using roids? Just seems it is easier to dog pile on the guy on the bottom. Some players have been quoted as saying that as many as 20% or more players used roids or other enhancing drugs during their careers and no one is saying shiat about them. I guess greatness comes with a higher price.

If Barry was only a average player, this thread would never have been posted and put on the back burner like Camminetti and alot of the other marginal players.
Finally a post with some common sense among a bunch of venom and blind hatred.

[delany]

Barroid is indeed a great defensive talent. I never said he wasn't. Let's not forget his greatest defensive memory was a piss poor attempt to gun down the fleet footed Sid Bream in game 7 of the 1992 NLCS.

Yes, I do get on other players for not running out basehits. I have called out Ken Griffey Jr. for the very same reasons in the past. I don't expect every ballplayer to haul ass down the line like Charlie Hustle or Lenny Dykstra.

Barroid has taken his half ass play to another level. I have never seen another player stand in left field with his back to the fence and watch the ball bounce off the outfield wall without moving one millimeter. No other player could get away with that crap without getting scolded by his manager and losing respect from his teammates. Because he is Barry "F*CKIN" Bonds he gets away with it.

Baseball is full of lazy "hot dog" players, but Barroid has taken "hot dogging" to an elite level unsurpassed by anybody else.



I did blame MLB by calling out Sandy Alderson and Selig. Barroid is exploiting the rules, more power to him. I was merely pointing out in my original post that Barroid pushes the limits of sportsmanship and baseball etiquette but he still has the nerve to cry like a bitch when an opposing player throws at him with body armor on his elbow.



There's a huge difference from charging the mound like a man and talking about bringing a bat out there. I guess it runs in the San Francisco Giant family.



Ted Williams played from 1939 to 1960. Nevermind the Yankees won 15 pennants during Teddy Ballgame's career. There was no wild card at the time. You either won the regular season or you stayed home.

I never said Williams was a perfect person, but you will be digging a ditch to nowhere if you want to compare his character with Barroid. Teddy Ballgame was apart of America's "Greatest Generation" and he deserves all the accolades he receives for taking two separate tours of duty. The fact that Teddy was the Honorable John Glenn's wingman in combat missions is worthy of the utmost repsect.

Since you are not too impressed with a true American hero like Ted Willliams, I will just have to go to my bench and kick your team's ass with "Stan the Man".


Dude,

Thanks for debating. I never said you had to feel like I do..in fact discussing topics wouldn't be as fun if we all came from the same perspective....I enjoy posting when it doesn't degenerate into diatribes, slurs and posters having an over-exagerated view of their own self-importance. Other people aren't automatically a$$holes that don't agree with me.

I agree 100% on Stan.

Regarding Ted...he HAS my utmost respect. What he did regarding service to this country will ALWAYS have my sincere gratitude.

Between the lines (that was what we were talking about, right?) he was a gifted athelete (like Bonds) and he was not always angelic (like Bonds). Bonds might be better than he was...and a whole lot worse, respectively.

As far as shear gifts....Bonds is without a doubt the best player of MY generation. While I can't seperate or forgive the other parts....I can still be in awe of his skills....while feeling pity for the choices he made.....and feeling anger for the disregard that he gave the SPIRIT of baseball. Why do all of these things have to be mutually exclusive. Are things always this black and white in your world?



DenFen, Slappy,...........

.........

[-Slap-]

Finally a post with some common sense among a bunch of venom and blind hatred.

No, just more bull**** excuses and rationalizations.

[-Slap-]

DenFen, Slappy,...........

.........

Eat me.

[bendog]

Finally a post with some common sense among a bunch of venom and blind hatred.
sosa and giambi and mcgwire have been criticized, but they don't have a sloppy defender segment like Barrybalco.

And, what bugs me about Sandy is that he's Selig's guy, and Selig is saying 'gosh we didn't know guys were juicing.' Sure, I'm sure Sandy never noticed htat in Oakland. Perfectly understandable.

[delany]

Eat me.

lol...slappy you need to CHILL.....go to the Stardust for me and have a cold frosty....and put some money down on the Dodgers to take it all this year.

[bendog]

What's funny is that two weeks ago you moogs were saying "it's just rumor that Barry knew what he was taking," and now your're down too "it doesnt' matter." LOL

[-Slap-]

lol...slappy you need to CHILL.....go to the Stardust for me and have a cold frosty....and put some money down on the Dodgers to take it all this year.

Dodgers don't have a snowball's chance in hell this year.

[bendog]

still waiting...
I'm not responsible for helping you read the thread, sister.

[FADERPROOF]

Finally a post with some common sense among a bunch of venom and blind hatred.


You do know that CBF1 is a Giants fan right?

[FADERPROOF]

What's funny is that two weeks ago you moogs were saying "it's just rumor that Barry knew what he was taking," and now your're down too "it doesnt' matter." LOL

It's gotta suck to be Gaints/Barry fan, who has defended the guy at every step of the way, now that everyone knows he's a cheater it's "well, he's still great and deserves all these records, what's a little steroid use?"

[bendog]

Dodgers don't have a snowball's chance in hell this year.
Horrible offseason.

On another note, I thought I saw a post about "other" forms of cheating, eg spitters and stealing signs. However, those imo are much different.

First, neither affected the stats of one era to another. The biggest rule change I personally saw was when they lowered the mound in 69 or so. That was done because the stats were being skewed away from batters back to where they were in the dead ball era.

Second, stealing signs isn't either illegal or against any rule. And what I recall of the spitter is that my Dad - who grew up with the Brooklyn Dodgers in the 30s - said that back then doctoring the ball was fairly common, but pitchers had less compunction about hitting batters, and a doctored ball, esp a wet one, is more an artform in how to control it. So, Gaylord Perry sort of got a pass, but it cost him when he came into the Hall.

[delany]

Second, stealing signs isn't either illegal or against any rule. And what I recall of the spitter is that my Dad - who grew up with the Brooklyn Dodgers in the 30s - said that back then doctoring the ball was fairly common, but pitchers had less compunction about hitting batters, and a doctored ball, esp a wet one, is more an artform in how to control it. So, Gaylord Perry sort of got a pass, but it cost him when he came into the Hall.


...and taking 'roids prior to last year WAS illegal??

I am sure as hell NOT condoning taking steriods...I believe it violates the spirit of the game and sportsmanship...but it WASN'T illegal.


So spitters don't violte the spirit of the game but 'roids do....doctoring a ball used to be ok, wearing body armor isn't....not running out a ground ball is not the same as showboating a homerun....If you guys have this all written down could I get a copy? Obviously, my moral compass is not as strong as yours.

slap...having the Padres win the West is as bad as having the Chargers do it. ...but it lokos like that is where it is headed.

[bendog]

taking roids is illegal period. so is gambling in most states.

jesus, you ar epathetic, LOL

[Lidderer]

So we can assume that the 8 Gold Gloves Barry has won were because of his stellar fieldplay that you are describing?

Do you hate with equal fevor every other ballplayer that has ever not run out a basehit?



And you are critizing Barry because MLB allows him to wear elbow armor? How exactly is that HIS fault? Blame MLB.

Barry also got upset when somebody hit him and said he would run out to the mound if hit again?

Come on! That puts him with just about everybody else that has ever been hit!





How many championships did The Splendid Splinter win? You think that he wasn't a jerk? Do you think that spitting at fans like Ted has done is ok?


Best post of the thread

[Lidderer]

I'm not responsible for helping you read the thread, sister.

lol, sister. get it guys? cause i'm a girl? get it?

jesus.

anyhow, still waiting.

[bendog]

I'm not responsible for you reading the thread. your answer is in it. Sister.

[Lidderer]

I'm not responsible for you reading the thread. your answer is in it. Sister.

no, you didn't name 10 players who have given back money after suffering injuries. Trust me, you didn't.

You might have thought you typed it in, or maybe there was an error, but it's seriously not there.

[delany]

taking roids is illegal period. so is gambling in most states.

jesus, you ar epathetic, LOL

Actually gambling is legal within the boarders of a majority of US states

[bendog]

Not with bookies it isn't.

And, again you ignore that the spitter has been part of baseball since .... damn, forever, while roids have not. In short, you are a barry blower and NOT a fan.

you are on ignore. out.

[Lidderer]

In short, you are a barry blower and NOT a fan.

you are on ignore. out.

Talk to the Hand Sister!

The maturity of Bonds haters displays itself once again.

[bendog]

ah, that's much better now.

[TheDave]

taking roids is illegal period. so is gambling in most states.

jesus, you ar epathetic, LOL

Actually taking steroids is not illegal. Now posession with the intent to distribute is, but thats another story.

[Lidderer]

Actually possesing and/or taking steroids is not illegal (assuming you are only caring enough for personal use). Now posession with the intent to distribute is, but thats another story.

you're asking to be put on ignore TheDave

[bendog]

Actually taking steroids is not illegal. Now posession with the intent to distribute is, but thats another story.
I believe it is illegal to possess various steroids unless obtained by RX, but maybe not. Barry's still a turd, regardless, and these two mooks are on ignore.

http://www.freevibe.com/drug_facts/steroids.asp

[delany]

Not with bookies it isn't.

And, again you ignore that the spitter has been part of baseball since .... damn, forever, while roids have not. In short, you are a barry blower and NOT a fan.

you are on ignore. out.

aww! come on dawg! please don't do THAT! lol

Thanks for clarifying that gambling WITH bookies is illegal....spitters have been with baseball forever....and roids haven't.....

Everything is so much clearer now that you have crystalized your..um...points.

For the record. i LOVE baseball.....I love the game. Watching and playing. I would rather be in a baseball stadium of ANY skill level than any church.

Ultimately, I am in the baseball watching business and I will leave the church and damnations of souls up to the ecclesiastical and to God.

I don't like or respect what Bonds represents...but in the stadium I really enjoy watching him play....if you haven't seen him in person...the electricity is tangible...just like watching Jordan, Gretztky, or Tiger.

Why can't you like and appreciate that part??? It is extremely rare.

[TheDave]

I believe it is illegal to possess various steroids unless obtained by RX, but maybe not. Barry's still a turd, regardless, and these two mooks are on ignore.

http://www.freevibe.com/drug_facts/steroids.asp

That's my only point Barry could easily get a Rx from a doctor... Though i agree is is one of todays greater assholes. People seem to be going to great lengths to accuse him of everything under the sun.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

That's my only point Barry could easily get a Rx from a doctor... Though i agree is is one of todays greater assholes. People seem to be going to great lengths to accuse him of everything under the sun.
Not really. He's only reaping the rewards of what he's sewn throughout the years.
It's pretty simple really. Giant fans are going to try and defend him as the "Baseball" player now because that's all they have left in that dirtball to talk about. But now, we know even that isn't real, so the only thing left IS the dirtbag.

[TheDave]

Not really. He only reaping the rewards of what he's sewn throughout the years.
It's pretty simple really. Giant fans are going to try and defend him as the "Baseball" player now because that's all they have left in that dirtball to talk about. But now, we know even that isn't real, so the only thing left IS the dirtbag.


Fair enough guys, i'm not a baseball fan, and if it wasn't for for my interest in the world of performance enhancing drugs, i wouldn't ever talk about it. But when i scan through these various baseball/steroid threads i'm always shocked at EXTREME hatred for Bonds.... and it always seems to come back to the "juice"... like he's the only one using.

[bendog]

Dave, I'm not sure Barry could get an RX ... unless the MD prescribed wayyyy outside the FDA's and AMA's guidelines for what 'roids are for. Years ago my mom has osteoparits (sp) and was on roids for bone knitting. I'm thinking of talking to an orthoped guy to see if a series might rid my wife of lingering plantar trouble.

[bendog]

Fair enough guys, i'm not a baseball fan, and if it wasn't for for my interest in the world of performance enhancing drugs, i wouldn't ever talk about it. But when i scan through these various baseball/steroid threads i'm always shocked at EXTREME hatred for Bonds.... and it always seems to come back to the "juice"... like he's the only one using.

He's the only one these guys are defending. The hatred, dislike really, is about his personality. People hated Pete Rose apart from the gambling. People hated Bob Gibson too.

[Old Dude]

He's the only one these guys are defending. The hatred, dislike really, is about his personality. People hated Pete Rose apart from the gambling. People hated Bob Gibson too.

Hey. I kind of liked Bob Gibson.

[TheDave]

Dave, I'm not sure Barry could get an RX ... unless the MD prescribed wayyyy outside the FDA's and AMA's guidelines for what 'roids are for. Years ago my mom has osteoparits (sp) and was on roids for bone knitting. I'm thinking of talking to an orthoped guy to see if a series might rid my wife of lingering plantar trouble.

If i was him, i would simply get a foreign Dr. to do it... when you have $ anything is possible...

Now on the other side of the coin, he sure didn't have a Rx for the Cream / Clear, but then again i'ld bet my life those 2 made up less than 20% of his "Supplements"

[bendog]

Dave, re the private message. One thing I don't understand about ALL sports is why 'roids are not allowed for injury rehab. As I recall that's how Boz got started. I think the bike cancer survivor did do 'roids at one time, but prolly in relation to his recovery. As I understand it, 'roids are useful in recovering from injury, but the misuse comes in when they are used to supplement the natural recovery of the body from "injury" entailed in regular training.

I'm really sympathetic to McGuire because I strongly suspect he only began using when his feet and back were shot. And, then, it worked soooooo good. I think his records should be expunged though, but I don't think he's a bad guy.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Actually taking steroids is not illegal. Now posession with the intent to distribute is, but thats another story.

Straight from the DEA website about penalties for possesion of steroids:

"The possession or sale of anabolic steroids without a valid prescription is illegal. Simple possession of illicitly obtained anabolic steroids carries a maximum penalty of one year in prison and a minimum $1,000 fine if this is an individual’s first drug offense. The maximum penalty for trafficking is five years in prison and a fine of $250,000 if this is the individual’s first felony drug offense."

[TheDave]

Dave, re the private message. One thing I don't understand about ALL sports is why 'roids are not allowed for injury rehab. As I recall that's how Boz got started. I think the bike cancer survivor did do 'roids at one time, but prolly in relation to his recovery. As I understand it, 'roids are useful in recovering from injury, but the misuse comes in when they are used to supplement the natural recovery of the body from "injury" entailed in regular training.

I'm really sympathetic to McGuire because I strongly suspect he only began using when his feet and back were shot. And, then, it worked soooooo good. I think his records should be expunged though, but I don't think he's a bad guy.

They are to a point.. GlucoCorticoSteroids are used for inflammation, and i would bet that water based low androgenic, high anabolic steroids like the old anavar probably are used for injuries. Depending on what type of injury you have there are different forms of synthetic testoterone used...

Oxandrolone - is fantastic a protein sparing drug
Oxymethalone - is excellent for Synovial fluid production (lubricating the joints) and red blood cell production - Lance Armstrong anyone
Nandrolone Decanoate - protein synthesis and H2O retention

Those are just a few of the more common ones, each has a purpose and an optimum time frame for use (off season, in season, bulking up, cutting weight, etc)

As for their misuse, that's totally subjective. A drug like Oxymethalone was developed primarily for treating bone marrow disease. So does that mean it is mis-used if a cyclist uses it to help relieve chronic knee pain? This whole subject is nothing but one large gray area. I know it seems black and white to most... but there is just alot more to it.

[TheDave]

Straight from the DEA website about penalties for possesion of steroids:

"The possession or sale of anabolic steroids without a valid prescription is illegal. Simple possession of illicitly obtained anabolic steroids carries a maximum penalty of one year in prison and a minimum $1,000 fine if this is an individual’s first drug offense. The maximum penalty for trafficking is five years in prison and a fine of $250,000 if this is the individual’s first felony drug offense."


You might of missed the part where we mentiond the perscription

[FADERPROOF]

That's my only point Barry could easily get a Rx from a doctor... Though i agree is is one of todays greater assholes. People seem to be going to great lengths to accuse him of everything under the sun.

People accusing him of everything under the sun is in the mind of one person, and that's Barry himself.

[FADERPROOF]

For the record. i LOVE baseball.....I love the game.

Don't insult baseball fans like that. Anyone who is ready to defend not only the person who Barry Bonds is, but that he is about to taint the biggest record in all of sports is certainly not a baseball fan.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I've taken steroids (can't remember which one) before, during the process of my Meniere's diagnosis. There was a 50-50 chance they would have restored some or most of my hearing if they would have been prescribed in time. So they are used for a lot of different medical reasons.

[Breck Bronc]

What could Mickey Mantle have done if he took steroids and there were better irrigation/drainage systems in major league fields back in the 1950's? 800+ home runs? Mick would have looked like the Hulk if he took steroids.

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/PHOTOFILE/AADL009.jpg

[Garcia Bronco]

I hope he gets to play again...hopefully he can hit for the record

[-Slap-]

He's the only one these guys are defending. The hatred, dislike really, is about his personality. People hated Pete Rose apart from the gambling. People hated Bob Gibson too.

I hated Rose pre gambling. Probably the most overrated athlete in history.

By the way, Rose is the starting left fielder on baseball's All Century Team. B*nds didn't even make the team. Of course, that team was selected pre 2000, so all of B*rry's BALCO bull**** wasn't considered.

[-Slap-]

I hope he gets to play again...hopefully he can hit for the record

I hope he dies in a gasoline fire.

[Garcia Bronco]

I hope he dies in a gasoline fire.

I'm sure it's listed here some where, but why all the hate for Bonds pre Balco?

[FADERPROOF]

I'm sure it's listed here some where, but why all the hate for Bonds pre Balco?

You must've missed the first 8 pages of this thread when people were talking about how Barry is off the field as well as on it.

[FADERPROOF]

To bring up the point about Ted Williams never winning a ring, along with slap and Broncos LB 52 brining up the Yankess dynasty along with no wild card, you have to remember that Bonds saved his best choking for the playoffs and cost his team big time by not stepping up when he needed to.

Except for the playoffs 2 years, they still lost to the Angels, but Barry played great that series. So good, that BALCO and the Conte's improved his career playoff batting average above the mendoza line...congrats Barry!

[Lidderer]

You must've missed the first 8 pages of this thread when people were talking about how Barry is off the field as well as on it.

that's all post-balco(mistress, other junk)

the only carping anyone made pre-balco was that he was surly to reporters.

seriously, there hasn't been anything more than people saying "you got owned!' "bonds apologist" and being evasive as hell.

The best parts of the thread are the moments when people condemn barry for being a bad guy(lack of morals, class) and then also wish he would die in a gasoline fire(which see: lack of morals, class). What makes it funny is that it comes from a person who claims to not be hyperbolic, in which case we have to believe he actually does want someone to die in a fire because of baseball indiscretions.

That, dear Maners, is what we call rich.

[Lidderer]

To bring up the point about Ted Williams never winning a ring, along with slap and Broncos LB 52 brining up the Yankess dynasty along with no wild card, you have to remember that Bonds saved his best choking for the playoffs and cost his team big time by not stepping up when he needed to.

Except for the playoffs 2 years, they still lost to the Angels, but Barry played great that series. So good, that BALCO and the Conte's improved his career playoff batting average above the mendoza line...congrats Barry!

Have we not admitted yet that there is no such thing as "clutch"? What with the barrage of supporting data available out there refuting this bizarre sports-fan theory, and only the most rarest of examples backing it up, you'd think 'clutch' would be put to rest by now.

Alas, it still carries on.

This is like saying, without sarcasm:

"when something that normally happens 30% of the time happens twice in nine trials, it is a very meaningful anamoly"

The ridiculousness surely speaks for itself.(queue joke)

[Garcia Bronco]

You must've missed the first 8 pages of this thread when people were talking about how Barry is off the field as well as on it.


I didn't really see anything pre-Balco...I don't even think the BALCO thing is a problem in terms of baseball, unless he took something banned by MLB. If he broke the law that's something else...he should go to jail after a trial with a jury of his peers. Other than that..I can't understand all the deep-seeded hate for the man.

[-Slap-]

Have we not admitted yet that there is no such thing as "clutch"? What with the barrage of supporting data available out there refuting this bizarre sports-fan theory, and only the most rarest of examples backing it up, you'd think 'clutch' would be put to rest by now.

Alas, it still carries on.

This is like saying, without sarcasm:

"when something that normally happens 30% of the time happens twice in nine trials, it is a very meaningful anamoly"

The ridiculousness surely speaks for itself.(queue joke)

Naturally, the sabermetric robot begins chanting his pre-programmed "there is no such thing as clutch" mantra. Great comedy for me.

[FADERPROOF]

that's all post-balco(mistress, other junk)

the only carping anyone made pre-balco was that he was surly to reporters.

seriously, there hasn't been anything more than people saying "you got owned!' "bonds apologist" and being evasive as hell.

The best parts of the thread are the moments when people condemn barry for being a bad guy(lack of morals, class) and then also wish he would die in a gasoline fire(which see: lack of morals, class). What makes it funny is that it comes from a person who claims to not be hyperbolic, in which case we have to believe he actually does want someone to die in a fire because of baseball indiscretions.

That, dear Maners, is what we call rich.

There has been plenty of things prior to Balco that Bonds ahs done to show that he is an asshole. He's always been against the media, always has just sared at his homeruns, the character that he is today has not changed, the only thing that has is what he started pumping into his body.

[FADERPROOF]

Have we not admitted yet that there is no such thing as "clutch"? What with the barrage of supporting data available out there refuting this bizarre sports-fan theory, and only the most rarest of examples backing it up, you'd think 'clutch' would be put to rest by now.

Alas, it still carries on.

This is like saying, without sarcasm:

"when something that normally happens 30% of the time happens twice in nine trials, it is a very meaningful anamoly"

The ridiculousness surely speaks for itself.(queue joke)

There is no thing as clutch? Obviously a Bonds fan if you believe that.

Some people live for big moments, others choke when they hit the stage, it's been proven time and time again. Your boy Barry was a lifetime BA under .200 before BALCO got ahold of him, and he still couldnt get a ring on his finger.

You call it bad luck, I call it divine justice.

[Lidderer]

Naturally, the sabermetric robot begins chanting his pre-programmed "there is no such thing as clutch" mantra. Great comedy for me.

This approach to a discussion is one step above bendog's "you're on ignore sister! i win! i win!"

rather than addressing any flaw in my arguement or sabermetrics, he just simply says "hahah, this is funny, omg so funny".

John Henry died, man, get over it.

[-Slap-]

I'm sure it's listed here some where, but why all the hate for Bonds pre Balco?

Why does B*rry B*nds hate Babe Ruth so much? Babe died 16 years before B*nds was even born.

Actually, who cares? This is America, that piece of trash is free to hate whomever he pleases, just like me.

[-Slap-]

There is no thing as clutch? Obviously a Bonds fan if you believe that.

Some people live for big moments, others choke when they hit the stage, it's been proven time and time again. Your boy Barry was a lifetime BA under .200 before BALCO got ahold of him, and he still couldnt get a ring on his finger.

You call it bad luck, I call it divine justice.

The sabernerds chant the same tired crap like robots. The groupthink among those people is truly frightening.

[-Slap-]

I didn't really see anything pre-Balco...I don't even think the BALCO thing is a problem in terms of baseball, unless he took something banned by MLB. If he broke the law that's something else...he should go to jail after a trial with a jury of his peers. Other than that..I can't understand all the deep-seeded hate for the man.

Garcia, you don't pay five seconds of attention to baseball and you're just here as a devil's advocate (ad nausea), so you're just farting in the wind (again).

[Lidderer]

There is no thing as clutch? Obviously a Bonds fan if you believe that.

Some people live for big moments, others choke when they hit the stage, it's been proven time and time again. Your boy Barry was a lifetime BA under .200 before BALCO got ahold of him, and he still couldnt get a ring on his finger.

You call it bad luck, I call it divine justice.

I don't call it bad luck.

If Barry bats .300+ in the regular season that means he hits the ball 3 out of every 10 times, no? And when he gets in the postseason he hits its twice in 10 at bats, that's supposed to be indicative of failure?

Seriously think about it for a second.

As far as being a bonds fan makes me not believe in clutch, you should probably read up on Bill James and, oh, just about every mathematical study out there that shows that clutch is, in FACT, non-existant.

"it's been proven time and time again"

No, I'm sorry, it just hasn't. Perhaps if you get caught up in the sweep of the big parades that are the WS or the N/A-LCS then yes you might believe what you witnessed was evidence of clutch. Take away those surrounding elements(which any good ballplayer not only can, but must, do) and you have available to you a collection of stats(pretty much what all games are founded on, btw) that can be easily interpreted without perverting romantic notions and biases clouding their message, which message "time and time again" says: Clutch does not exist.

[-Slap-]

that's all post-balco(mistress, other junk)

the only carping anyone made pre-balco was that he was surly to reporters.

seriously, there hasn't been anything more than people saying "you got owned!' "bonds apologist" and being evasive as hell.

The best parts of the thread are the moments when people condemn barry for being a bad guy(lack of morals, class) and then also wish he would die in a gasoline fire(which see: lack of morals, class). What makes it funny is that it comes from a person who claims to not be hyperbolic, in which case we have to believe he actually does want someone to die in a fire because of baseball indiscretions.

That, dear Maners, is what we call rich.

If I haven't told you to kiss my ass up until now, I've been remiss.

http://wwwstud.hint.no/~morteeg/Humor/Kiss%20my%20ass.JPG

[Lidderer]

The sabernerds chant the same tired crap like robots. The groupthink among those people is truly frightening.


holy sh*t, you are quite the frightened guy. In one thread alone you've called people who don't think bonds should be burned by gasoline and people who view stats as meaningful(seriously, please try and refute any of them, honestly, i beg of you...wait, forget it, you'll just laugh) "truly frightening".

You need to toughen up Slap. The world of baseball conversation is really not as scary as you imagine.

Come join us, we can teach you things.

It's gonna be okay.

[-Slap-]

Have we not admitted yet that there is no such thing as "clutch"? What with the barrage of supporting data available out there refuting this bizarre sports-fan theory, and only the most rarest of examples backing it up, you'd think 'clutch' would be put to rest by now.

Alas, it still carries on.

This is like saying, without sarcasm:

"when something that normally happens 30% of the time happens twice in nine trials, it is a very meaningful anamoly"

The ridiculousness surely speaks for itself.(queue joke)

You squinty little fellows need to stop crunching so many numbers and actually watch a few ballgames. You might be able to identify some clutch players after awhile employing this method. I know it sounds crazy, but it works.

[-Slap-]

holy sh*t, you are quite the frightened guy. In one thread alone you've called people who don't think bonds should be burned by gasoline and people who view stats as meaningful(seriously, please try and refute any of them, honestly, i beg of you...wait, forget it, you'll just laugh) "truly frightening".

You need to toughen up Slap. The world of baseball conversation is really not as scary as you imagine.

Come join us, we can teach you things.

It's gonna be okay.

Deprogramming and reeducating a bunch of geeks is not my calling in life. Look for another father figure.

[Lidderer]

I take it that shirt could substitute as a flag, then.

[FADERPROOF]

I don't call it bad luck.

If Barry bats .300+ in the regular season that means he hits the ball 3 out of every 10 times, no? And when he gets in the postseason he hits its twice in 10 at bats, that's supposed to be indicative of failure?

Seriously think about it for a second.

As far as being a bonds fan makes me not believe in clutch, you should probably read up on Bill James and, oh, just about every mathematical study out there that shows that clutch is, in FACT, non-existant.

"it's been proven time and time again"

No, I'm sorry, it just hasn't. Perhaps if you get caught up in the sweep of the big parades that are the WS or the N/A-LCS then yes you might believe what you witnessed was evidence of clutch. Take away those surrounding elements(which any good ballplayer not only can, but must, do) and you have available to you a collection of stats(pretty much what all games are founded on, btw) that can be easily interpreted without perverting romantic notions and biases clouding their message, which message "time and time again" says: Clutch does not exist.


It's not that he hits, it's when the hits come, and that's the meaning of clutch.

It's not a mathematical situation, it's all about timing IN the situation. If Michael Jordan missed that shot over Craig Ehlo and msised that shot on Bryan Russell, would he have as much of a legacy as he does?

If Adam Vinatieri misses those 2 FG's in the Super Bowl as time expired along with those 2 FG's in the Oakland Raider playoff game of 2001, would he still be considered the most clutch kicker in the game today?

Answer is...no. Both Jordan and Vinatieri would be walking around known as chokers instead. But they're clutch, as it's been proven time and time again.

[Lidderer]

You squinty little fellows need to stop crunching so many numbers and actually watch a few ballgames. You might be able to identify some clutch players after awhile employing this method. I know it sounds crazy, but it works.

I subscribe to MLB extra innings.

[Garcia Bronco]

Jordon was clutch...and think that's as close as you can get.

[FADERPROOF]

You squinty little fellows need to stop crunching so many numbers and actually watch a few ballgames. You might be able to identify some clutch players after awhile employing this method. I know it sounds crazy, but it works.

Reggie Jackson shouldn't have the name Mr October apparently, since math shows that cranking out homers to win big games is just something that regularly happens.

[Garcia Bronco]

It's not that he hits, it's when the hits come, and that's the meaning of clutch.

It's not a mathematical situation, it's all about timing IN the situation. If Michael Jordan missed that shot over Craig Ehlo and msised that shot on Bryan Russell, would he have as much of a legacy as he does?

If Adam Vinatieri misses those 2 FG's in the Super Bowl as time expired along with those 2 FG's in the Oakland Raider playoff game of 2001, would he still be considered the most clutch kicker in the game today?

Answer is...no. Both Jordan and Vinatieri would be walking around known as chokers instead. But they're clutch, as it's been proven time and time again.


I understand what you're saying....but mathmatically speaking...Lidderer is correct.

[FADERPROOF]

I understand what you're saying....but mathmatically speaking...Lidderer is correct.

and you're the one talking about worthless posts on here?

[Lidderer]

It's not that he hits, it's when the hits come, and that's the meaning of clutch.

It's not a mathematical situation, it's all about timing IN the situation. If Michael Jordan missed that shot over Craig Ehlo and msised that shot on Bryan Russell, would he have as much of a legacy as he does?

If Adam Vinatieri misses those 2 FG's in the Super Bowl as time expired along with those 2 FG's in the Oakland Raider playoff game of 2001, would he still be considered the most clutch kicker in the game today?

Answer is...no. Both Jordan and Vinatieri would be walking around known as chokers instead. But they're clutch, as it's been proven time and time again.

This isn't really true though, Denfan. Vinatieri makes those FGs regularly as is. By doing the same thing in the postseason doesn't mean he's clutch really. It just means he's a player who makes longer FGs(let's be honest, the 2nd FG wasn't exactly difficult) more often than he misses. Replay that Rams/Pats kick 10 times and he's likely to miss 2 of those kicks.

As per Jordan: same thing applies.

Mentioning Jordan is probably the best route to go if you want to prove ONE instance of clutch on display, but aside from him(and let's not forget that the guy routinely makes such baskets in the regular season anyway) there really isn't a strong case to be made.

Vinatieri is glorified because he was able to be in a position to make the kick. In fact, your very point about how we wouldn't even really be considered clutch if he hadn't made those FGs speaks volumes about how flawed the idea of clutch really is.

I mean, 2 FGs and suddenly that marks a trend?

In 2003 Vinatieri hit 73.5% of his FGs in the regular season. The postseason? He hit 70%.

In 2001 in the regular season he hit 80%. The postseason? 75%.

Sounds eerily similar to the differences b/w Bonds' reg. # and Vinatieri's.

[FADERPROOF]

This isn't really true though, Denfan. Vinatieri makes those FGs regularly as is. By doing the same thing in the postseason doesn't mean he's clutch really. It just means he's a player who makes longer FGs(let's be honest, the 2nd FG wasn't exactly difficult) more often than he misses. Replay that Rams/Pats kick 10 times and he's likely to miss 2 of those kicks.

As per Jordan: same thing applies.

Mentioning Jordan is probably the best route to go if you want to prove ONE instance of clutch on display, but aside from him(and let's not forget that the guy routinely makes such baskets in the regular season anyway) there really isn't a strong case to be made.

Vinatieri is glorified because he was able to be in a position to make the kick. In fact, your very point about how we wouldn't even really be considered clutch if he hadn't made those FGs speaks volumes about how flawed the idea of clutch really is.

I mean, 2 FGs and suddenly that marks a trend?

In 2003 Vinatieri hit 73.5% of his FGs in the regular season. The postseason? He hit 70%.

In 2001 in the regular season he hit 80%. The postseason? 75%.

Sounds eerily similar to the differences b/w Bonds' reg. # and Vinatieri's.


You don't think players get rattled? You said yourself that you played sports, never once in a big situation did you feel any emotion out there? I know the feeling I had when I took the mound in playoff games for my high school baseball teams, and while I didnt let it get to me, I easily, easily could've buckled. I'm sure you've been up to bat in a close game before, with yuor team on the bench NEEDING you to get a hit, does it feel the same as when you're up 8-0 in the last inning?

Vinatieri kicking a 48 yard in the 4th game of the season to beat the Dolphins 38-14 compared to a 48 yard to win the Super Bowl are two entirely different emotions right there.

Some players have the ability to brush off the pressure, have the "ice water in the veins" and go make the big play when their team needs it, and that's clutch.

[-Slap-]

Mentioning Jordan is probably the best route to go if you want to prove ONE instance of clutch on display, but aside from him(and let's not forget that the guy routinely makes such baskets in the regular season anyway) there really isn't a strong case to be made.

Yeah, game winning baskets in the regular season aren't clutch plays.

Nice argument. If a guy is known for making clutch plays anyway, how can you call him a clutch player?

There's a brilliance to that kind of logic, but people who aren't trying desperately to prove a weak point will find it elusive. I find it laughable. You guys must come off an assembly line somewhere.

[Garcia Bronco]

and you're the one talking about worthless posts on here?


See...you never really read what I post...I said worthless thread...and it is....because we haven't signed the guy and the title says we have.

[Lidderer]

You don't think players get rattled? You said yourself that you played sports, never once in a big situation did you feel any emotion out there? I know the feeling I had when I took the mound in playoff games for my high school baseball teams, and while I didnt let it get to me, I easily, easily could've buckled. I'm sure you've been up to bat in a close game before, with yuor team on the bench NEEDING you to get a hit, does it feel the same as when you're up 8-0 in the last inning?

Vinatieri kicking a 48 yard in the 4th game of the season to beat the Dolphins 38-14 compared to a 48 yard to win the Super Bowl are two entirely different emotions right there.

Some players have the ability to brush off the pressure, have the "ice water in the veins" and go make the big play when their team needs it, and that's clutch.


I think what seperates people like you and me from people like vinatieri is that each game is, to them, like the others.

After you play in front of 80,000 people enough times the escalated emotion from Super Bowl to key regular season game isn't nearly as big as the other escalations you've made before reaching that point, ie. high school to college, college to pros, you get the idea.

That sentiment does appeal to the idea of the game as drama, but I'm not sure how much it translates to the players themselves. Even poor scott norwood shouldn't be considered a choker.

[FADERPROOF]

See...you never really read what I post...I said worthless thread...and it is....because we haven't signed the guy.

You should've said "This is worthless, because Courtney Brown is worthless," then I would agree with you :)

[FADERPROOF]

I think what seperates people like you and me from people like vinatieri is that each game is, to them, like the others.

After you play in front of 80,000 people enough times the escalated emotion from Super Bowl to key regular season game isn't nearly as big as the other escalations you've made before reaching that point, ie. high school to college, college to pros, you get the idea.

That sentiment does appeal to the idea of the game as drama, but I'm not sure how much it translates to the players themselves. Even poor scott norwood shouldn't be considered a choker.

I guess thats where we disagree, I'm sure these pro athletes have nerves and emotion out there and I'm sure that it can get the better of them, the great ones jsut block it out though.

[Garcia Bronco]

That sentiment does appeal to the idea of the game as drama, .


We do have many a folk hooked on drama here.

[Lidderer]

Yeah, game winning baskets in the regular season aren't clutch plays.

Nice argument. If a guy is known for making clutch plays anyway, how can you call him a clutch player?

There's a brilliance to that kind of logic, but people who aren't trying desperately to prove a weak point will find it elusive. I find it laughable. You guys must come off an assembly line somewhere.

he makes those baskets in the first quarter too. Will you say that "making a basketball in a professional nba game isn't clutch? yeah ok pal"? Where's the cut-off point?

The guy does it always, no more or no less in the post-season. The stats show this.

[-Slap-]

he makes those baskets in the first quarter too. Will you say that "making a basketball in a professional nba game isn't clutch? yeah ok pal"? Where's the cut-off point?

The guy does it always, no more or no less in the post-season. The stats show this.

So, Michael Jordan's not a clutch player then, correct?

[-Slap-]

We do have many a folk hooked on drama here.

If only we could all be as mature as the person who bears the same name as this smilie.

:garcia:

[Lidderer]

So, Michael Jordan's not a clutch player then, correct?

No one is a clutch player.

Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever, regardless of situation.

Does he perform better than he does in other situations when titles are on the line? No, not particularly.

Even if you wanted to stretch the limits of the data to arrive at the conclusion that jordan elevates his game markedly in postseason play, that's one example, and that one example happens to be the greatest player to ever play that sport, which, yes, is an anomaly more so than an indication of a player belonging to a group("clutch players").

[-Slap-]

No one is a clutch player.

Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever, regardless of situation.

Does he perform better than he does in other situations when titles are on the line? No, not particularly.

Even if you wanted to stretch the limits of the data to arrive at the conclusion that jordan elevates his game markedly in postseason play, that's one example, and that one example happens to be the greatest player to ever play that sport, which, yes, is an anomaly more so than an indication of a player belonging to a group("clutch players").

You are completely indoctrined. Congratulations on that, I guess.

Ever been to Baseball Primer? There's about a hundred of you guys nodding in unison. Exercize caution on the B*rry B*nds threads. Those guys clunk heads like the Three Stooges trying to get the first pair of lips on his posterior.

[Garcia Bronco]

If only we could all be as mature as the person who bears the same name as this smilie.

:garcia:


Hey!...I was drunk and going to a bachelor party that night. We drafted a WR with our first pick from Hawaii to play in Denver in the sub-temps...until recently.... he couldn't catch a cold. It was totally justified.

But let me be a lesson on all you that would fall to such temptation. Anger leads to....broken computers...broken flying computers.

[-Slap-]

Hey!...I was drunk and going to a bachelor party that night. We drafted a WR with our first pick from Hawaii to play in Denver in the sub-temps...until recently.... he couldn't catch a cold. It was totally justified.

But let me be a lesson on all you that would fall to such temptation. Anger leads to....broken computers...broken flying computers.

That was the ultimate drama queen move, Baja.

[Garcia Bronco]

That was the ultimate drama queen move, Baja.

Baja?


I don't know if it was the "ultimate" but it was pretty bad...and almost 4 years ago

[-Slap-]

Baja?


I don't know if it was the "ultimate" but it was pretty bad...and almost 4 years ago

My apologies, Baja.

That was a weird mixup.

:dummy:

[Garcia Bronco]

My apologies, Baja.

That was a weird mixup.

:dummy:
:garcia: