The Terri Schaivo Thread (most recent: Terri's fading fast)

[Sodak]

This whole thread has gotten too ugly. People here with a great common interest (Broncos) letting crap like this get in between. Obviously, everybody has already formed their own opinions and nothing new can be said to change my mind as well.

I think I'll go start the Pro-life/Pro-Choice abortion thread...

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Don't take it personal. Its hard to write into a post that someone want to be arguemenative and not confrontational.

LOL I take very few things here personal. I have the undesirables/intolerables on the ignore list.

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

LOL I take very few things here personal. I have the undesirables/intolerables on the ignore list.


And I haven't amde that list yet. Jeez, I must be slipping.

[RaiderH8r]

From Bush's home state..........

Baby at center of life support case dies</a>

Why didn't republicans and Bush create new, last minute laws to prevent the ending of life support for this case or any of the other thousands and thousands happening every year?

Hopefully the federal judge railroaded by a new law to trample our judicial system will make the correct ruling.


----------------------------------------------------------
Judge Won't Issue Decision on Schiavo Yet
By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer

TAMPA, Fla. - Armed with a new law rushed through Congress over the weekend, the attorney for Terri Schiavo's parents pleaded with a judge Monday to order the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube re-inserted. But the judge appeared cool to the argument.

U.S. District Judge James Whittemore did not immediately make a ruling after the two-hour hearing, and he gave no indication on when he might act on the request.

The hearing came three days after the feeding tube was removed. Doctors have said Schiavo, 41, could survive one to two weeks without the tube.

The courtroom showdown, the latest in what has become a legal cliffhanger captivating the nation, followed an extraordinary political fight over the weekend that consumed both chambers of Congress and prompted the president to rush back to the White House.

Congress passed a law that allowed Schiavo's parents to argue their case before a federal court, bringing the legal battle to Whittemore's Tampa courtroom.

"We are rushed and we are somewhat desperate," the Schindler's attorney, David Gibbs III, told the judge. "Terri may die as I speak." The attorney said that forcing Schiavo to die by starvation and dehydration would be "a mortal sin" under her Roman Catholic beliefs.

"It is a complete violation to her rights and to her religious liberty, to force her in a position of refusing nutrition," Gibbs told Whittemore.

But the judge told Gibbs that he was not completely sold on the argument. "I think you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that you have a substantial likelihood" of the parents' lawsuit succeeding, said Whittemore, nominated by former President Clinton (news - web sites) in 1999.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050321/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman
Big difference between being brain dead, requiring life support. And being brain damaged requiring feeding.....BIG DIFFERENCE.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

And I haven't amde that list yet. Jeez, I must be slipping.

You have had a few stints. ;D

Disco Man and Wolffman are the only permanent residents.

[orangenblue2]

Big difference between being brain dead, requiring life support. And being brain damaged requiring feeding.....BIG DIFFERENCE.

'Brain Damaged"? Breathing is the only thing this woman can do on her own. Eating...nah. Speaking...nope. Using the bathroom..sorry. Walking...uh-uh. Control of any bodily movements or functions...guess again. Comprehension of anything in her "life"...nada. I guess you're right, this woman is much better off than she would be if they removed the feeding tube. 'Course removing the tube is what she wanted, but who the hell is she to determine her own destiny... :kiddingme

[Mtbrncofn]

'Course removing the tube is what she wanted, but who the hell is she to determine her own destiny... :kiddingme


And you know this for a fact? Yeah, that's what I thought. If anyone knew this, this whole thing would be moot.

[TheDave]

'Brain Damaged"? Breathing is the only thing this woman can do on her own. Eating...nah. Speaking...nope. Using the bathroom..sorry. Walking...uh-uh. Control of any bodily movements or functions...guess again. Comprehension of anything in her "life"...nada. I guess you're right, this woman is much better off than she would be if they removed the feeding tube. 'Course removing the tube is what she wanted, but who the hell is she to determine her own destiny... :kiddingme

I even gave people a visual aid to show how brain damaged she was... didn't seem to help. Technically she is not brain dead. Her medula and brain stem would also have to be non-functioning for that classification. Some people just don't seem to understand that without all the other parts she is nothing more than a breathing, flinching corpse.

[DB-Freak]

I even gave people a visual aid to show how brain damaged she was... didn't seem to help. Technically she is not brain dead. Her medula and brain stem would also have to be non-functioning for that classification. Some people just don't seem to understand that without all the other parts she is nothing more than a breathing, flinching corpse.
Did you mention that her cerebrum is virtually useless?

[TheDave]

Did you mention that her cerebrum is virtually useless?


even went as far as explaining it was liquid...

[DB-Freak]

even went as far as explaining it was liquid...

It would truly take a miracle for her.

She feels none.

She can only react through pure instincts but not recognize nor feel.

[Spider]

even went as far as explaining it was liquid...
Problem was Dave , you didnt put it in terms People can relate to , so maybe this will help out

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And you know this for a fact? Yeah, that's what I thought. If anyone knew this, this whole thing would be moot.
No, because her husband knows for a fact if anyone does and it's certainly not moot.

It is what the courts ruled (over and over and over and over) in the absense of a written directive. Arrived at from testimony from her friends, relatives, parents and husband.

[orangenblue2]

And you know this for a fact? Yeah, that's what I thought. If anyone knew this, this whole thing would be moot.
You know, you ought to read and possibly research a subject just alittle bit before you spout off. Are you asking if Terri Schiavo personally, in the flesh, whispered sweet nothings in my ear about her wishes? No, I personally don't know the woman. If you are asking about the preponderance, the totality, the end-all be-all of the evidence given by both sides of this issue during two trials, numerous appeals, countless court hearings and depositions before 19 judges in 6 different courts ,then your answer would be yes. This whole thing would be "moot" (as you put it) if her parents, the FLA legislature, Jeb Bush, right-to-lifers, christian zealots, the US Congress, and witless message board posters without "fact 1" would let her die in peace...Try again...

[yavoon]

waste of medical resources, has this bankrupted the husband yet? what is the financial situation of it all? from the outside it appears that the husband is footing it.

[Rascal]

'Brain Damaged"? Breathing is the only thing this woman can do on her own. Eating...nah. Speaking...nope. Using the bathroom..sorry. Walking...uh-uh. Control of any bodily movements or functions...guess again. Comprehension of anything in her "life"...nada. I guess you're right, this woman is much better off than she would be if they removed the feeding tube. 'Course removing the tube is what she wanted, but who the hell is she to determine her own destiny... :kiddingme

Did she say take me off of life support or starve me to death?

[Spider]

Did she say take me off of life support or starve me to death?
I do remember her saying ......"Tie me up on the Range Cowboy , I will be your Cowgirl, Saddle up Big boy , momma doesnt get dressed up for nothing " . or somthing to that effect ..... ....... Point is you cant disprove that , no more then I can Prove it , all we have is Michaels word ...... Funny thing about the law..... I was taught at an early age if you shoot someone , make sure they cant testify , Dead men cant tell their side of the story .......

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

You have had a few stints. ;D

Disco Man and Wolffman are the only permanent residents.

:alky: of all the fans in our division I have the most respect for chef fans, maaann. (Burp) :alky:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

But I'm sure her parents will try to find another judge who agrees congress should undermine the American judicial system.

---------------------------------------------

TAMPA, Fla. Mar 22, 2005 — A federal judge on Tuesday refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, denying an emergency request from the brain-damaged woman's parents.
By VICKIE CHACHERE Associated Press Writer
The Associated PressThe Associated Press

TAMPA, Fla. Mar 22, 2005 — A federal judge on Tuesday refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, denying an emergency request from the brain-damaged woman's parents.

The ruling by U.S. District Judge James Whittemore comes after feverish action by President Bush and Congress on legislation allowing her contentious case to be reviewed by federal courts. The judge said the 41-year-old woman's parents had not established a "substantial likelihood of success" at trial on the merits of their arguments.

Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing Terri Schiavo's parents, said lawyers were immediately appealing to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta to "save Terri's life."

The tube was disconnected Friday on the orders of a state judge, prompting an extraordinary weekend effort by congressional Republicans to push through unprecedented emergency legislation early Monday aimed at keeping her alive.

Schiavo did not have a living will. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, has fought in courts for years to have the tube removed because he said she would not want to be kept alive artificially and she has no hope for recovery. Her parents contend she responds to them and her condition could improve.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Schiavo/wireStory?id=602859

[watermock]

Essentially, the Judge is wrong. It's the Florida law that is wrong. Technically, the Federal Judge and Congress are treading on States rights. It's very likely that Atlanta won't agree to see the case either, and the Supreme Court certainly won't.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

We see now that Bush's roll in this was to apparently appease a section of his supporter base and nothing else. Bush signed a 1999 law in TX that gives the right to the surrogate in ending life support which would have ended the FL case years ago. And, in fact, the law Bush signed gives doctors the right to end life support over the objections of the surrogate.


----------------------------------------------
Bush Laws in Schiavo Case, Texas at Odds
Law Bush Signed in Terri Schiavo Case Seems to Conflict With Texas Law He Signed As Governor
By KELLEY SHANNON
The Associated Press

Mar. 22, 2005 - The federal law President Bush signed to prolong Terri Schiavo's life in Florida appears to conflict with a Texas law he signed as governor, attorneys familiar with the legislation said Monday.

The 1999 Advance Directives Act in Texas allows for a patient's surrogate to make end-of-life decisions and spells out how to proceed if a hospital or other health provider disagrees with a decision to maintain or halt life-sustaining treatment.

If a doctor refuses to honor a decision, the case goes before a medical committee. If the committee agrees with the doctor, the guardian or surrogate has 10 days to agree or seek treatment elsewhere.

Thomas Mayo, an associate law professor at Southern Methodist University who helped draft the Texas law, said that if the Schiavo case had happened in Texas, her husband would have been her surrogate decision-maker. Because both he and her doctors were in agreement, life support would have been discontinued.

The Texas law does not include a provision for dealing with conflicts among family members who disagree with the surrogate decision-maker as has happened in the Schiavo case although in practice hospital ethics committees would try to resolve such disputes, he said.

The Texas law, Mayo said, tends to keep such cases out of court, allowing life-support decisions to be made privately. However, within the last month two Houston cases went to court. One case resulted in a baby being removed from life support; he died soon afterward. The other led to the transfer of an elderly man to a nursing home.

Bruce Howell, a private health law attorney in Dallas who was involved in updates to the state law in 2003, agreed with Mayo that Bush's signing of the federal law appears to be inconsistent with his actions as governor.

"These are incredibly private decisions," Howell said. "I would hope that this case does not result in federal law overriding what I think was carefully and incredibly well intentionally thought out."

The White House said Monday the law allowing a federal court to intervene in the Schiavo case was narrowly tailored and not intended as a precedent for Congress to step into such battles.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan dismissed the claim that Bush's signature on the Texas law conflicts with his action Monday. "The legislation he signed is consistent with his views," McClellan said.

Associated Press writer David Pace in Washington contributed to this report.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Copyright © 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures
http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=602214

[Garcia Bronco]

Goodnight Terri....rest in peace

[Mile High Shack]

I just hope she doesn’t feel any pain….I can’t imagine starving to death, I guess her “husband” can go marry his lover now

[Ratboy]

This is pretty pathetic, Some of you people are pathetic.

They are starving her to death and Her lips and tongue are going to start cracking.

It's outrageous to do something like this.

but than I'm a hypocrit, because i would want to die. but thats my choice.

[Spider]

This is pretty pathetic, Some of you people are pathetic.

They are starving her to death and Her lips and tongue are going to start cracking.

It's outrageous to do something like this.

but than I'm a hypocrit, because i would want to die. but thats my choice.
when they cut my uncle off of food , his lips didnt crack , nor his tounge ... Hell he didnt even want to eat , same with my grandma .... whats pathetic is keeping this woman in this state for money ..... Getting Sick and dying has always been big business in America ......

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This is pretty pathetic, Some of you people are pathetic.

They are starving her to death and Her lips and tongue are going to start cracking.

It's outrageous to do something like this.

but than I'm a hypocrit, because i would want to die. but thats my choice.
What's outrageous and pathetic is the right thumping their chests over not allowing humans to die a quick and humane death (assisted suicide) and then complaining about ending life support for terminally ill or brain damaged people.

In any event this should be a wake up call for people to sign an Advance Medical Directive (AMD) immediately.

[RaiderH8r]

'Brain Damaged"? Breathing is the only thing this woman can do on her own. Eating...nah. Speaking...nope. Using the bathroom..sorry. Walking...uh-uh. Control of any bodily movements or functions...guess again. Comprehension of anything in her "life"...nada. I guess you're right, this woman is much better off than she would be if they removed the feeding tube. 'Course removing the tube is what she wanted, but who the hell is she to determine her own destiny... :kiddingme
So that's your standard? Needs to be fed and changed without the ability to make cognitive decisions while exhibiting involuntary body movement and reflexive action to stimuli. Hmm, maybe you should walk down to check out the Down's syndrome kids and see how many fit your neat little standard, which of those would choose to die if they could tell you? Try applying your standard at special care units of the neo natal intensive care unit.

Simply because it's not how you would choose to live doesn't mean that it isn't a life in the first place.

[RaiderH8r]

What's outrageous and pathetic is the right thumping their chests over not allowing humans to die a quick and humane death (assisted suicide) and then complaining about ending life support for terminally ill or brain damaged people.

In any event this should be a wake up call for people to sign an Advance Medical Directive (AMD) immediately.
What's amusing is that you don't bother to call out your beloved Senate Democrats for not even making a peep on this legislation. Unanimous Consent mean anything to you? This bill was passed as a concurrent resolution. They could have easily stopped this bill in the Senate with a filibuster but chose instead to sleep in.....where's your outrage at them?

[Falconer]

'Brain Damaged"? Breathing is the only thing this woman can do on her own. Eating...nah. Speaking...nope. Using the bathroom..sorry. Walking...uh-uh. Control of any bodily movements or functions...guess again. Comprehension of anything in her "life"...nada. I guess you're right, this woman is much better off than she would be if they removed the feeding tube. 'Course removing the tube is what she wanted, but who the hell is she to determine her own destiny... :kiddingme

About the only thing my son Samuel can do on his own is breathe. Eating...nah. Speaking...nope. Using the bathroom...sorry. Walking...uh-uh. Control of any bodily movement or functions...no more than Terri Shaivo. Comprehension of anything in his life...not really sure. I guess we should take out his G-button and starve him to death too. I mean who knows how he feels about it right? Heck he reacts to things about the same as I saw in the video of Terri. This hits close to home with me and unless you've been in the same situation as Terri's parents don't presume to tell them how and what their daughter feels. I pray that Sam knows and can feel the love we have for him. We think he does by the way that he smiles when we love on him. Kind of the same way that Terri smiles in that video that I saw.

[Mile High Shack]

About the only thing my son Samuel can do on his own is breathe. Eating...nah. Speaking...nope. Using the bathroom...sorry. Walking...uh-uh. Control of any bodily movement or functions...no more than Terri Shaivo. Comprehension of anything in his life...not really sure. I guess we should take out his G-button and starve him to death too. I mean who knows how he feels about it right? Heck he reacts to things about the same as I saw in the video of Terri. This hits close to home with me and unless you've been in the same situation as Terri's parents don't presume to tell them how and what their daughter feels. I pray that Sam knows and can feel the love we have for him. We think he does by the way that he smiles when we love on him. Kind of the same way that Terri smiles in that video that I saw.
I was about to ask Falconer’s opinion on this topic…………….puts it in some perspective doesn’t it

[Rascal]

I don't agree with the federal courts or congress getting involved in this but that doesn't matter has they have.

Michael Schiavo says that Terri once told him that she wouldn't want to live hooked up to a machine or tubes. Well she is not hooked up to a machine; she breathes on her own. She does have a feeding tube because she can't swallow, although some doctors believe with time she would be able to or already can.

One thing that I feel more certain about then anything, is that Terri Schiavo never wrote down or said "starve me to death if I am severely brain damaged"

Some may say she doesn't have the capacity to understand or feel the pain she'll endure.....but what if she does? Does she show pain or voice pain when she is poked by a needle? Michael Shiavo hasn't allowed any rehab therapy for his wife in more then 10 years...if he had who knows how she might have improved? He's started a new family...he should divorce terry and return her to her parents care.

The evidence supports that she is brain damaged not brain dead. Should we go and start removing support from brain damaged people who rely on feeding tubes to survive? I think not.

Heck one of Terri's best friends recalls her saying these words after seeing a movie about a woman removed from life support "where there's life, there's hope".

[Rascal]

What's amusing is that you don't bother to call out your beloved Senate Democrats for not even making a peep on this legislation. Unanimous Consent mean anything to you? This bill was passed as a concurrent resolution. They could have easily stopped this bill in the Senate with a filibuster but chose instead to sleep in.....where's your outrage at them?

That's because Beerslug only reads from the left and is the biggest moron on the board.

[Spider]

I was about to ask Falconer’s opinion on this topic…………….puts it in some perspective doesn’t it
For the Sun Hudson case ...... and if Terri Schaivo was under the age of ten , and her brain wasnt goo ....... and another point , Falconer and his wife are still able to care for Samuel , Samuel isnt in a Hospice center .......

[Mile High Shack]

For the Sun Hudson case ...... and if Terri Schaivo was under the age of ten , and her brain wasnt goo ....... and another point , Falconer and his wife are still able to care for Samuel , Samuel isnt in a Hospice center .......
Falconer might disagree with you……..

[Spider]

Point is , there is alot of time left for Sam , he s still a baby , Schaivo on the other hand is well over the age of 30 .... With Samuel , there is still somthig to work with , not the Case for Schaivo .....

[Spider]

Falconer might disagree with you……..
Thats his right .......

[Mile High Shack]

Point is , there is alot of time left for Sam , he s still a baby , Schaivo on the other hand is well over the age of 30 .... With Samuel , there is still somthig to work with , not the Case for Schaivo .....

what's your arbitrary cut off age?

[Spider]

what's your arbitrary cut off age?
a lot longer then Sun Hudson got in Texas , this week , thats for sure ..... It realy isnt Age , it is MMI , that is the cutoff point .......

[Rascal]

Point is , there is alot of time left for Sam , he s still a baby , Schaivo on the other hand is well over the age of 30 .... With Samuel , there is still somthig to work with , not the Case for Schaivo .....


There might be something to work with if her husband hadn't refused care/therapy for the past 10 years.

[Mile High Shack]

a lot longer then Sun Hudson got in Texas , this week , thats for sure ..... It realy isnt Age , it is MMI , that is the cutoff point .......
Well I just don’t know about this case, I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as she just wouldn’t starve to death…man that just seems so cruel. Death row inmates get a better death.

[Spider]

There might be something to work with if her husband hadn't refused care/therapy for the past 10 years.
as i stated earlier in this thread , she didnt respond to the therapy she did get ,
I even posted a link to it .......Realy dont need to go down that road again ...

[Spider]

Well I just don’t know about this case, I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as she just wouldn’t starve to death…man that just seems so cruel. Death row inmates get a better death.
it isnt cruel and a deathrow inmate enjoys food the way we do , not through a tube , she just gets what the body needs , nuetrients take time to see someone on a feeding tube for yourself , it is ghastly ..... the Sun Hudson case you should Look up . LABF is having a field day with it ......

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What's amusing is that you don't bother to call out your beloved Senate Democrats for not even making a peep on this legislation. Unanimous Consent mean anything to you? This bill was passed as a concurrent resolution. They could have easily stopped this bill in the Senate with a filibuster but chose instead to sleep in.....where's your outrage at them?
I already answered this in the other forum. It's political suicide to oppose it (initiated by republicans) to appear not caring about life (neither party has the fortitude or guts to say what they really feel on many controversial issues). But as I also posted, Bush is a hypocrite here having signed legislation in TX. that would have let Terri pass years ago and then grandstanding yesterday with the "it's better to err on the side of life" comment.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

About the only thing my son Samuel can do on his own is breathe. Eating...nah. Speaking...nope. Using the bathroom...sorry. Walking...uh-uh. Control of any bodily movement or functions...no more than Terri Shaivo. Comprehension of anything in his life...not really sure. I guess we should take out his G-button and starve him to death too. I mean who knows how he feels about it right? Heck he reacts to things about the same as I saw in the video of Terri. This hits close to home with me and unless you've been in the same situation as Terri's parents don't presume to tell them how and what their daughter feels. I pray that Sam knows and can feel the love we have for him. We think he does by the way that he smiles when we love on him. Kind of the same way that Terri smiles in that video that I saw.
Not knowing the exact condition of your son I can't say if he has the same medical conditions as Terri Schiavo does but the circumstances are completely different. Schiavo is an adult who married and the American judicial system has determined she didn't want to exist in this condition.

[Mile High Shack]

it isnt cruel and a deathrow inmate enjoys food the way we do , not through a tube , she just gets what the body needs , nuetrients take time to see someone on a feeding tube for yourself , it is ghastly ..... the Sun Hudson case you should Look up . LABF is having a field day with it ......
I’ll have to search for that case b/c I rarely venture into the political forum anymore and I certainly don’t have LABF off ignore

[Mtbrncofn]

I don't agree with the federal courts or congress getting involved in this but that doesn't matter has they have.

Michael Schiavo says that Terri once told him that she wouldn't want to live hooked up to a machine or tubes. Well she is not hooked up to a machine; she breathes on her own. She does have a feeding tube because she can't swallow, although some doctors believe with time she would be able to or already can.

One thing that I feel more certain about then anything, is that Terri Schiavo never wrote down or said "starve me to death if I am severely brain damaged"Some may say she doesn't have the capacity to understand or feel the pain she'll endure.....but what if she does? Does she show pain or voice pain when she is poked by a needle? Michael Shiavo hasn't allowed any rehab therapy for his wife in more then 10 years...if he had who knows how she might have improved? He's started a new family...he should divorce terry and return her to her parents care.

The evidence supports that she is brain damaged not brain dead. Should we go and start removing support from brain damaged people who rely on feeding tubes to survive? I think not.

Heck one of Terri's best friends recalls her saying these words after seeing a movie about a woman removed from life support "where there's life, there's hope".

Yes. These were exactly my points in my other posts, before orangeandblue2 got his panties in a wad over it since he seems to know exactly what is happening with her. 4321~ Right on, rascal.

[Spider]

I’ll have to search for that case b/c I rarely venture into the political forum anymore and I certainly don’t have LABF off ignore
;D ... Well it is a doozy ......
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/15/lifesupport.baby.ap/
From what I understand Bush signed the bill in 1999 , that allowed Hospitials to pull the plug even against Parents wishes ....... Hence the remark by Beerslug

[Mtbrncofn]

Well I just don’t know about this case, I wouldn’t have a problem with it as long as she just wouldn’t starve to death…man that just seems so cruel. Death row inmates get a better death.


Exactly, Shack. This is the same place I am coming from on this. Starvation is supposed to be one of the worst deaths to go through. Even if she can't feel, would you advocates for this want to sit there and watch her just slowly die? That's awful.

[Spider]

Exactly, Shack. This is the same place I am coming from on this. Starvation is supposed to be one of the worst deaths to go through. Even if she can't feel, would you advocates for this want to sit there and watch her just slowly die? That's awful.
See someone on a feeding tube , they cant taste it , they cant enjoy different foods , they dont know the feeling of being full ....... Somehow everyones got the idea that Schaivo is eating Meatloaf , mashed taters and corn ... she isnt , she is being feed a milky Subtense to sustain her body .....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Exactly, Shack. This is the same place I am coming from on this. Starvation is supposed to be one of the worst deaths to go through. Even if she can't feel, would you advocates for this want to sit there and watch her just slowly die? That's awful.

It happens many, many times every day in this country. The conservative religious right has blocked humane death (assisted suicide) for the terminally ill and brain damaged people for years in this country and now most of them are complaining about how awful Schiavo's death is. Incredible irony!

[Rascal]

See someone on a feeding tube , they cant taste it , they cant enjoy different foods , they dont know the feeling of being full ....... Somehow everyones got the idea that Schaivo is eating Meatloaf , mashed taters and corn ... she isnt , she is being feed a milky Subtense to sustain her body .....

Who cares if it's the worst tasting **** on earth?

The point is that to remove it would be starving her to death when there is no indication, at least that I have seen, that she would want to starve to death (opposed to having the plug pulled if she was on life support).

Show me where she said "starve me to death" and I'll conceed the argument. But for some judge, politician, or whomever to decide that someone should die by starvation is ludricrous.

[Mtbrncofn]

See someone on a feeding tube , they cant taste it , they cant enjoy different foods , they dont know the feeling of being full ....... Somehow everyones got the idea that Schaivo is eating Meatloaf , mashed taters and corn ... she isnt , she is being feed a milky Subtense to sustain her body .....

I'm not talking about enjoying her food....just the part where she is just wasting away, with all the things that go along with being starved to death.

I wonder if she still has that smile on her face now.

[Spider]

Who cares if it's the worst tasting **** on earth?

The point is that to remove it would be starving her to death when there is no indication, at least that I have seen, that she would want to starve to death (opposed to having the plug pulled if she was on life support).

Show me where she said "starve me to death" and I'll conceed the argument. But for some judge, politician, or whomever to decide that someone should die by starvation is ludricrous.
LOL ..... Show me where she didnt say it ..... you took a talking point Rascal , now you are running with it , 99.9% of the time people say pull the plug on me , that pretty much says it all .... means they dont any help being kept alive ... oh and she cant taste it , futher more all it is happening is he desire for food is being curbed , you and me can eat a plate of food and "feel "Full .Schaivo cant ....

[Spider]

I'm not talking about enjoying her food....just the part where she is just wasting away, with all the things that go along with being starved to death. She has been wasting away for 15 years , now all of the sudden this is a concern ? ok ......

I wonder if she still has that smile on her face now.
that doesnt effect me MT , I know the smile isnt from pleasure , i happen to understand that her Brain is gone .....Zip , null , nothing but goo ......
you realy want to impress everyone , take up the Sun Hudson Case .......

[Rascal]

LOL ..... Show me where she didnt say it ..... you took a talking point Rascal , now you are running with it , 99.9% of the time people say pull the plug on me , that pretty much says it all means they dont ant help being kept alive ... oh and she cant taste it , futher more all it is happening is he desire for food is being curbed , you and me can eat a plate of food and "feel "Full .Schaivo cant ....

Show me where she didn't say it? In order to prove your point Spider you have to show evidence that she said something not that she didn't say it. I've got plenty of evidence...because it isn't there that she said otherwise.

I know she can't taste it...that's my point. Who cares what her stuff looks/tastes like...the point is that all that needs to survive is that...not oxygen, heart regulator, etc...only food.

I took a talking point? I've been arguing this fromt the start.

***

Furthermore...what about people that are brain damaged that can't eat on their own...are you suggesting we pull their feeding tube on them as well?

[Rascal]

She has been wasting away for 15 years , now all of the sudden this is a concern ? ok ......


that doesnt effect me MT , I know the smile isnt from pleasure , i happen to understand that her Brain is gone .....Zip , null , nothing but goo ......
you realy want to impress everyone , take up the Sun Hudson Case .......

How do you know for sure...you can't. Even the doctors disagree about that.

[Mtbrncofn]

LOL ..... Show me where she didnt say it ..... you took a talking point Rascal , now you are running with it , 99.9% of the time people say pull the plug on me , that pretty much says it all .... means they dont any help being kept alive ... oh and she cant taste it , futher more all it is happening is he desire for food is being curbed , you and me can eat a plate of food and "feel "Full .Schaivo cant ....


But is she sitting there with her stomach twisting with hunger cramps, her mouth dry, her tongue swollen and stuck to the roof of her mouth?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything at all. I really just want to know what is going on. Is she experiencing these kinds of things? Does anyone know? Are her parents having to sit there and witness this if the above things are happening?

[RaiderH8r]

I already answered this in the other forum. It's political suicide to oppose it (initiated by republicans) to appear not caring about life (neither party has the fortitude or guts to say what they really feel on many controversial issues). But as I also posted, Bush is a hypocrite here having signed legislation in TX. that would have let Terri pass years ago and then grandstanding yesterday with the "it's better to err on the side of life" comment.
So they're afraid to take a principled stand that might cost them in the long run? Is that what you're conceding? These are the people you would have represent you? According to the polls you posted the Republicans are the ones committing political suicide, so what's the deal? You post polls showing Americans are against the Republican action in Congress yet you give your party a pass because it would be political suicide to take the populist position? See kids, Beerslug is a good example of why you shouldn't do drugs.... :dummy:

[Mtbrncofn]

She has been wasting away for 15 years , now all of the sudden this is a concern ? ok ......


that doesnt effect me MT , I know the smile isnt from pleasure , i happen to understand that her Brain is gone .....Zip , null , nothing but goo ......
you realy want to impress everyone , take up the Sun Hudson Case .......


I'm not trying to impress anyone at all. Not sure why you think that. I just want simple answers. Concrete ones. I don't want to take up anyone's case. I just don't feel like this is a humane way to go about this.

I have no problem with pulling someone's plug. My definition of pulling the plug would be to cut a life support system. Starving someone to death is a different scenario for me.

[Spider]

Show me where she didn't say it? In order to prove your point Spider you have to show evidence that she said something not that she didn't say it. I've got plenty of evidence...because it isn't there that she said otherwise.
huh ? I see you run around claiming she didnt say it , and you have no evidence , and I ask to prove she didnt say it , and now the proof is on me ???

I know she can't taste it...that's my point. Who cares what her stuff looks/tastes like...the point is that all that needs to survive is that...not oxygen, heart regulator, etc...only food.
Stil being maintained by artifical means .....

I took a talking point? I've been arguing this fromt the start.
Still a talking point ...... please starve me to death ......

[Rascal]

So they're afraid to take a principled stand that might cost them in the long run? Is that what you're conceding? These are the people you would have represent you? According to the polls you posted the Republicans are the ones committing political suicide, so what's the deal? You post polls showing Americans are against the Republican action in Congress yet you give your party a pass because it would be political suicide to take the populist position? See kids, Beerslug is a good example of why you shouldn't do drugs.... :dummy:

ownage...rep

[Spider]

But is she sitting there with her stomach twisting with hunger cramps, her mouth dry, her tongue swollen and stuck to the roof of her mouth?
like i said go see someone on a feding tube , they starved my uncle , none of tose things happened ......

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything at all. I really just want to know what is going on. Is she experiencing these kinds of things? Does anyone know? Are her parents having to sit there and witness this if the above things are happening?
That maybe the case , but you are only taking in what you want ...

[RaiderH8r]

;D ... Well it is a doozy ......
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/15/lifesupport.baby.ap/
From what I understand Bush signed the bill in 1999 , that allowed Hospitials to pull the plug even against Parents wishes ....... Hence the remark by Beerslug
That case is different. That child was born with a terminal condition that required a respirator. Now it certainly sucks ass that he died but it is different. An artificial respirator IS considered extraordinary means of extending life (hence the term "pull the plug") feeding care is not considered extraordinary means of supporting life.

[Rascal]

huh ? I see you run around claiming she didnt say it , and you have no evidence , and I ask to prove she didnt say it , and now the proof is on me ???


Stil being maintained by artifical means .....


Still a talking point ...... please starve me to death ......

I asked you to show me where she said it Spider. And you can't because she never did. The fact that it (saying remove my feeding tube) isn't out there to find is all the evidence I need to support that she in fact never did say it. You can spin all you want on this, but the fact is there is nothing out there to show that she wanted to have a feeding tube removed.

So anybody who is maintained by artificial means should be taken off? That's a pretty ludricrous argument Spider.

What do you mean by talking point?

[Spider]

I'm not trying to impress anyone at all. Not sure why you think that. I just want simple answers. Concrete ones. I don't want to take up anyone's case. I just don't feel like this is a humane way to go about this.
gave them to you , pointed out she has been without solid food for 15 years now{ perhaps even longer she was on a liquid diet before this happened ) . what did I get for an answer ? Stomache turning .....

I have no problem with pulling someone's plug. My definition of pulling the plug would be to cut a life support system. Starving someone to death is a different scenario for me.
I see Kill em but dont cut of the precious gruel ...... Sun Hudson sure got a fair shake didnt he

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So they're afraid to take a principled stand that might cost them in the long run? Is that what you're conceding? These are the people you would have represent you? According to the polls you posted the Republicans are the ones committing political suicide, so what's the deal? You post polls showing Americans are against the Republican action in Congress yet you give your party a pass because it would be political suicide to take the populist position? See kids, Beerslug is a good example of why you shouldn't do drugs.... :dummy:

LOL! What's your principled stand on republicans trying to override the American judicial system? Or is it to painful to address that?
Like I already said, my party didn't vote on this issue. How did your party vote on it?

[RaiderH8r]

LOL! What's your principled stand on republicans trying to override the American judicial system? Or is it to painful to address that?
Like I already said, my party didn't vote on this issue. How did your party vote on it?
The legislation extended the jurisdiction to allow a federal court to hear the case. FURTHER judicial review. Try reading the legislation next time....but I guess I shouldn't be asking more effort of you than your Senate Democrats were willing to put forth...

Still waiting for your insight into how a populist stand is political suicide.....I'll not hold my breath.

Nice try at the parry though, now will you respond to my original question?

[Spider]

I asked you to show me where she said it Spider. And you can't because she never did. The fact that it (saying remove my feeding tube) isn't out there to find is all the evidence I need to support that she in fact never did say it. You can spin all you want on this, but the fact is there is nothing out there to show that she wanted to have a feeding tube removed.

So anybody who is maintained by artificial means should be taken off? That's a pretty ludricrous argument Spider.

What do you mean by talking point?
and you cant show me where she didnt Right ........ But it is ok for som to run around here proclaiming she never said it without proof ........ Talking point - quick little phrase ......

[Rascal]

and you cant show me where she didnt Right ........ But it is ok for som to run around here proclaiming she never said it without proof ........ Talking point - quick little phrase ......

If she didn't say it...then it shouldn't be done Spider.

They extend the same rights to pulling the plug...the same should be applied here.

If she said remove my feeding tube if I am in this state...then fine by all means do so...but the fact remains that nobody has been able to prove that she did...and until that proof is found or something else solves the solution her tube shouldn't be removed.

[Spider]

If she didn't say it...then it shouldn't be done Spider.
Oh I see , so since we have Proof that Terry didnt say , by all means then keep her alive , Meanwhile a 6 month old baby gets the plug pulled ...... I am sure he didnt say pull the plug ....

[/QUOTE]

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The legislation extended the jurisdiction to allow a federal court to hear the case. FURTHER judicial review. Try reading the legislation next time....but I guess I shouldn't be asking more effort of you than your Senate Democrats were willing to put forth...

Still waiting for your insight into how a populist stand is political suicide.....I'll not hold my breath.

Nice try at the parry though, now will you respond to my original question?
Where did you find those terms "political suicide" in my posts? The legislation was an attempt by republicans to override 19 judges in 10 courts ( render moot the American judicial system). If you think you can call it anything other than that you have become an official Bush
<a href="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:fgRAVj23aO0J:www.bradfriedman.com/BradBlog/Images/BushTool.jpg">tool</a>.

[Spider]

That case is different. That child was born with a terminal condition that required a respirator. Now it certainly sucks ass that he died but it is different. An artificial respirator IS considered extraordinary means of extending life (hence the term "pull the plug") feeding care is not considered extraordinary means of supporting life.
Oh I see , so were we can hold out hope for Schaivo , whos brain has gone to goo , we shouldnt have any Hope for a 6 month old toddler of getting better ....... Makes sense to me ....glad we cleared that up .......

[Rascal]

Oh I see , so since we have Proof that Terry didnt say , by all means then keep her alive , Meanwhile a 6 month old baby gets the plug pulled ...... I am sure he didnt say pull the plug ....

[/QUOTE]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Did the thread change from Terri or did I miss something?

[Arkie]

I think the "husband" is attempting to kill his wife—and collect a lot of money that was supposed to go toward her therapy and rehabilitation.

He was awarded the money specifically so that he could afford to give her the therapy and rehabilitation she required.

After the money came in, her "husband" immediately terminated all of her therapy and rehab. Instead he's been using the money in an effort to legally kill her. Once she's dead, he gets all of the remaining money instead of her family. That's the reason he's staying married to her. He's had another family for years now. He's waiting for Terri to die so he can get all that money.

One nurse has claimed that he's repeatedly asked, "Is the bitch dead yet?"

Other experts long ago confirmed that Terri could achieve significant recovery and lead a long, happy life if she were given proper rehab.

But her "husband" refused to allow proper rehab.

He also put a “Do Not Resuscitate” order on Terri’s chart. He tried to prevent the nurses from treating Terri’s infections—expecting her to develop sepsis and die. He did not allow her to be given speech or swallow therapy. He did not allow her to be given a “system” for communicating. He wouldn’t even let the nurses put a rolled-up washcloth in her hand so that her fingers wouldn’t curl in.

Soon after the money came in, the "husband" had Terri’s cats put to death… he stopped all her antibiotics… and he melted down her wedding ring for cash.

The "husband" wants Terri to die – not get better.

[Spider]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Did the thread change from Terri or did I miss something?[/QUOTE]
LOL ...... Nice dodge .... Oh I see , so since we have Proof that Terry didnt say , by all means then keep her alive , Meanwhile a 6 month old baby gets the plug pulled ...... I am sure he didnt say pull the plug ....

maybe this will help .......
Oh ah see , so on account o' we haf Proof thet Terry didnt say , by all means then keep her alive , Meanwhile a 6 month old baby gits th' plug pulled ...... ah's sho'nuff he didnt say pull th' plug ....
;D

[RaiderH8r]

Where did you find those terms "political suicide" in my posts? The legislation was an attempt by republicans to override 19 judges in 10 courts ( render moot the American judicial system). If you think you can call it anything other than that you have become an official Bush
<a href="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:fgRAVj23aO0J:www.bradfriedman.com/BradBlog/Images/BushTool.jpg">tool</a>.
Post 293
Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug
I already answered this in the other forum. It's political suicide to oppose it (initiated by republicans) to appear not caring about life (neither party has the fortitude or guts to say what they really feel on many controversial issues). But as I also posted, Bush is a hypocrite here having signed legislation in TX. that would have let Terri pass years ago and then grandstanding yesterday with the "it's better to err on the side of life" comment.

Listen kids, really, stay off the drugs. Slug, the beatings will continue.

The legislation provided further judicial review, it overturned nothing. In fact the district court judge in Florida ruled against Teri's parents at 6:30 this morning, so the judicial system is fine.

Now, I've slapped you around....again. You have posted ad nauseum regarding the TX legislation and I haven't argued that point. But I am still awaiting your response to my original question as to why your Sen. Democrats couldn't manage to stop this legislation if they feel as you do? Where is your outrage at those who supposedly represent your ideals and philosophies? We KNOW that the Republicans don't, so it's no surprise you're upset at them, but why do you continue to deflect from the question of holding those who you support accountable for THEIR actions, or lack thereof in this case? How does a populist position on this legislation equal political suicide, and yes..you said political suicide? I'll await your answer.

[Spider]

I think the "husband" is attempting to kill his wife—and collect a lot of money that was supposed to go toward her therapy and rehabilitation.


and to think he turned down 10 Million in 1 offer and another Mill in another for his rights as her gaurdian ..... to get the insurence money ...... That Diabolical fiend .......

[RaiderH8r]

Oh I see , so were we can hold out hope for Schaivo , whos brain has gone to goo , we shouldnt have any Hope for a 6 month old toddler of getting better ....... Makes sense to me ....glad we cleared that up .......
I'm not holding out hope, this is setting a standard. Falconer made an excellent point earlier in this thread and I would continue to submit that just because it isn't a life you would want to live doesn't make it less of a life. She simply needs to be fed and taken care of, she doesn't require artificial means of respiration or blood circulation. There are many who are in the same situation, shall we remove their means of sustenance as well?

[Arkie]

This “Exit Protocol” is a recipe for how to kill someone by starvation and dehydration, and then manage their symptoms while they slowly die.

For instance, the nurses will put lip balm on Terri because her lips will crack, peel, and bleed from the dehydration.
They’ll use body lotion because Terri’s skin will begin to break down and show signs of flaking, drying, cracking, or being parched.
They’ll put a “scopolamine patch” behind her ear to enhance the drying up of saliva and other secretions.
“Chux pads” will need to be used—and changed quite often because of incontinence of Terri’s bowels and bladder.
When Terri begins to writhe in pain (multifocal myoclonus) and she becomes agitated from metabolic changes and electrolyte imbalances due to no fluids or nutrition, the attending staff will have to give her 5 to 10 mg of Valium (diazepam)—rectally—every 4 hours.
If Terri experiences a Grand Mal seizure, they’ll give her 15 mg of Valium immediately, and then as needed thereafter.
When her body shows signs of an inability to breathe by gasping for air (dyspnea), they will immediately give Terri 2 to 4 mg of morphine every 4 hours.
And all of this will go on for 7 to 10 days…

[RaiderH8r]

and to think he turned down 10 Million in 1 offer and another Mill in another for his rights as her gaurdian ..... to get the insurence money ...... That Diabolical fiend .......
He'll get a helluva lot more from CBS for the movie of the week rights, which he couldn't get as an Ex-husband/widower.......for thought?

[Rascal]

Did the thread change from Terri or did I miss something?
LOL ...... Nice dodge ....
maybe this will help .......

;D[/QUOTE]

I understand you..I just have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm guessing your talking about the Hudson case...well I have no idea what that is about or what's going on so I can't address it.

If you want to take the discussion that way you might want to start a new thread.

[Spider]

I'm not holding out hope, this is setting a standard. Falconer made an excellent point earlier in this thread and I would continue to submit that just because it isn't a life you would want to live doesn't make it less of a life. She simply needs to be fed and taken care of, she doesn't require artificial means of respiration or blood circulation. There are many who are in the same situation, shall we remove their means of sustenance as well?
Point I failed to make is , there is a world of difference in Sams F. Case and Schaivo , While sam may not be Normal , he is young , things Change , Schaivo has been this way for 15 Years , no improvment , nothing , while you have a point about what life is or isnt , thats getting into the self awareness realm ...
and a great counter argument , not one easly answered , Unlike a fetus , that needs a feeding tube ( embilical cord sp?) from the mother , we all know that sooner or later the tricycle motor wil pop out , and sustain life on his own sooner or later , We cant say that about Terry Schaivo ..... While we can debate what is life , what isnt , we cant debate the condition of Schaivo ....
and in the end if she doesnt have a feeding tube , she will pass on ......

[Spider]

LOL ...... Nice dodge ....
maybe this will help .......

;D

I understand you..I just have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm guessing your talking about the Hudson case...well I have no idea what that is about or what's going on so I can't address it.

If you want to take the discussion that way you might want to start a new thread.
If we made a thread on the different cases of the Plug being pulled there would be a thousand threads daily ... I dont blame you for not looking into the Hudson case , it is a black eye for Bush no question ........
So in your Plea , I will stay on a topic you can defend ......

[Mile High Shack]

This “Exit Protocol” is a recipe for how to kill someone by starvation and dehydration, and then manage their symptoms while they slowly die.

For instance, the nurses will put lip balm on Terri because her lips will crack, peel, and bleed from the dehydration.
They’ll use body lotion because Terri’s skin will begin to break down and show signs of flaking, drying, cracking, or being parched.
They’ll put a “scopolamine patch” behind her ear to enhance the drying up of saliva and other secretions.
“Chux pads” will need to be used—and changed quite often because of incontinence of Terri’s bowels and bladder.
When Terri begins to writhe in pain (multifocal myoclonus) and she becomes agitated from metabolic changes and electrolyte imbalances due to no fluids or nutrition, the attending staff will have to give her 5 to 10 mg of Valium (diazepam)—rectally—every 4 hours.
If Terri experiences a Grand Mal seizure, they’ll give her 15 mg of Valium immediately, and then as needed thereafter.
When her body shows signs of an inability to breathe by gasping for air (dyspnea), they will immediately give Terri 2 to 4 mg of morphine every 4 hours.
And all of this will go on for 7 to 10 days…
Gee, sounds like a peaceful way to die

[Spider]

would you guys feel better if we pushed Schaivo out of a window ?

[Arkie]

, Schaivo has been this way for 15 Years , no improvment , nothing......

That's because her "husband" immediately terminated all of Terri’s therapy and rehab. He conveniently waited until he was awarded their money (his money when she dies)

But her "husband" refused to allow proper rehab.

One nurse has claimed that he's repeatedly asked, "Is the bitch dead yet?"

[Mile High Shack]

would you guys feel better if we pushed Schaivo out of a window ?
Naaa just her “husband”

;)

[Spider]

That's because her "husband" immediately terminated all of Terri’s therapy and rehab. He conveniently waited until he was awarded their money (his money when she dies)

But her "husband" refused to allow proper rehab.

One nurse has claimed that he's repeatedly asked, "Is the bitch dead yet?"
No he didnt , I posted a link where Terry got therapy .........
what was this Nurses name ?

[RaiderH8r]

Point I failed to make is , there is a world of difference in Sams F. Case and Schaivo , While sam may not be Normal , he is young , things Change , Schaivo has been this way for 15 Years , no improvment , nothing , while you have a point about what life is or isnt , thats getting into the self awareness realm ...
and a great counter argument , not one easly answered , Unlike a fetus , that needs a feeding tube ( embilical cord sp?) from the mother , we all know that sooner or later the tricycle motor wil pop out , and sustain life on his own sooner or later , We cant say that about Terry Schaivo ..... While we can debate what is life , what isnt , we cant debate the condition of Schaivo ....
and in the end if she doesnt have a feeding tube , she will pass on ......
You're right. The fact that this case has been heard and debated in some fashion and in some court for 15 years is testimony to just how difficult of an issue this is. This case and Schiavo's situation cuts right down to the question of, "What does it mean to be alive?". In the age of medical technology, bioethics will come to play a greater role in individual health care.

And since I'm a nice guy, I'm going to lob up a Republican bashing softball here that hasn't been asked yet.....What role could stem cell research play in a case such as this? How might that research benefit people in similar situations? Now slap the Republicans around....see I'm not all witty right wing banter. Food for thought..we should probably start another thread with this question though....

[Spider]

Naaa just her “husband”

;)
ok a compromise here . we push them both out the window and say the fell .......

[RaiderH8r]

ok a compromise here . we push them both out the window and say the fell .......
I smell a pay per view fundraiser.....

[Mile High Shack]

ok a compromise here . we push them both out the window and say the fell .......
Sure, in a last heroic effort, her husband wanted to go with her……..sounds like a deal to me

[Spider]

You're right. The fact that this case has been heard and debated in some fashion and in some court for 15 years is testimony to just how difficult of an issue this is. This case and Schiavo's situation cuts right down to the question of, "What does it mean to be alive?". In the age of medical technology, bioethics will come to play a greater role in individual health care.
Excellent point .....

And since I'm a nice guy, I'm going to lob up a Republican bashing softball here that hasn't been asked yet.....What role could stem cell research play in a case such as this? How might that research benefit people in similar situations? Now slap the Republicans around....see I'm not all witty right wing banter. Food for thought..we should probably start another thread with this question though....
Another excellent point , Stem Cell ..... Could have gave Sun Hudson a shot , Hell I dont realy see any limatations on what Stem cell could do as of yet , so maybe it could Help Schaivo ...... good point hater

[Spider]

Sure, in a last heroic effort, her husband wanted to go with her……..sounds like a deal to me
Done ... now how about you buying lunch ;D

[Spider]

I smell a pay per view fundraiser.....
49.95 ..... our selling point would be .. it will last longer then a Tyson fight ;D

[Mile High Shack]

Done ... now how about you buying lunch ;D
Sure why not since I’ll probably be voted off the island tomorrow morning anyway……….you can tell me how bad you feel for Schivao and me

[Spider]

Sure why not since I’ll probably be voted off the island tomorrow morning anyway……….you can tell me how bad you feel for Schivao and me
;D ..... that will cost you a steak . Medium Rare .... Angus ... Prarie fed

[Arkie]

No he didnt , I posted a link where Terry got therapy .........
what was this Nurses name ?

Yeah, she had a little bit of therapy early on. That's when the doctors conducted a bone scan that showed bones in the healing stage from some kind of beating she took from somebody somewhere. It was never investigated. The "husband" knew about the doctor's report but didn't let the family know. The family just found out about it three years ago.

[Spider]

Yeah, she had a little bit of therapy early on. That's when the doctors conducted a bone scan that showed bones in the healing stage from some kind of beating she took from somebody somewhere. It was never investigated. The "husband" knew about the doctor's report but didn't let the family know. The family just found out about it three years ago.
Kinda Bites the she had no therapy cliam doesnt it ...... But Terry Had all the therapy that was available ...... There comes a time when you have to stop linning the pockets of therapist ......

[RaiderH8r]

Kinda Bites the she had no therapy cliam doesnt it ...... But Terry Had all the therapy that was available ...... There comes a time when you have to stop linning the pockets of therapist ......
And start lining the pockets of the lawyers...sorry, opportunity presented itself.....

[Spider]

And start lining the pockets of the lawyers...sorry, opportunity presented itself.....
Keep the lawyers out of it .......;D .......
Besides leave me the hell alone , the damn dog got ahold of my Deorderant , I had to use my wifes , I am not feeling very Macho right now and my Arm Pits smell like Lilacs ........ :moody:

[Rascal]

speaking of lawyers...my sister in law is going to law school and both her and my professor (I'm currently getting my masters and I'm taking a couple of law classes) are trying to talk me into it

I have a mechanical engineering background with several years of experience so I probably be in the product liability/patent law area.

Any opinions besides lawyers suck?

[Spider]

speaking of lawyers...my sister in law is going to law school and both her and my professor (I'm currently getting my masters and I'm taking a couple of law classes) are trying to talk me into it

I have a mechanical engineering background with several years of experience so I probably be in the product liability/patent law area.

Any opinions besides lawyers suck? go for it , if you believe you can make a difference ...... in peoples lives , we are all dealt an injustice at some point in our Lives ( see me last Post about deorderant ) and we need a Hired Gun A.K.A. a Lawyer to set things right for us ......

[Rascal]

go for it , if you believe you can make a difference ...... in peoples lives , we are all dealt an injustice at some point in our Lives ( see me last Post about deorderant ) and we need a Hired Gun A.K.A. a Lawyer to set things right for us ......

Well I could represent the mane and sue the hell out of faiders and squaw fans...not that they have anything to take anyway besides a trailer and a '83 camero.

[RaiderH8r]

Well I could represent the mane and sue the hell out of faiders and squaw fans...not that they have anything to take anyway besides a trailer and a '83 camero.
I think most Raider fans carry a government lien on their property to pay for all the bail-jumping.

[TheDave]

I swear if the reading comprehension of my HS students was as poor as half this thread, i would have to fail everyone.

Before the next person comments on how cruel starvation is... Remember... SHE DOESN'T HAVE A BRAIN! Without a cerebrum there is absolutely no way she can comprehend, understand, or process the complex chemical and electrical signals associated with starvation, hunger, dry lips, dehydration, etc....

[RaiderH8r]

Keep the lawyers out of it .......;D .......
Besides leave me the hell alone , the damn dog got ahold of my Deorderant , I had to use my wifes , I am not feeling very Macho right now and my Arm Pits smell like Lilacs ........ :moody:
Arid is pH balanced so it is strong enough for a man yet gentle enough for a Spider.....

[Rascal]

It would be cruel to starve Terri.

[RaiderH8r]

I swear if the reading comprehension of my HS students was as poor as half this thread, i would have to fail everyone.

Before the next person comments on how cruel starvation is... Remember... SHE DOESN'T HAVE A BRAIN! Without a cerebrum there is absolutely no way she can comprehend, understand, or process the complex chemical and electrical signals associated with starvation, hunger, dry lips, dehydration, etc....
Brain damaged and brain dead are different. There are plenty of handicapped individuals who suffer from the same malady, brain damage, and survive. She is not required to be attached to an artificial respirator or an artificial heart to circulate blood, which are both necessary in a brain dead individual which is why you hear the term "pull the plug". Because that is literally what happens when they remove a brain dead individual from life support. Now, I'm going to mock Spider's armpit problem, the potential for humor is high.

[Spider]

Arid is pH balanced so it is strong enough for a man yet gentle enough for a Spider.....
If I wasnt smelling like Lilacs , I would have somthing smart assed to say

[TheDave]

It would be cruel to starve Terri.


You win... :moody:

[Spider]

Cruel is a 240 pound man sitting with a stetson on smelling like Lilacs ..........

[RaiderH8r]

If I wasnt smelling like Lilacs , I would have somthing smart assed to say
So the pH balance is messing with your cognitive abilities? Quick, wash, rinse and repeat....Maybe you should have stuck with applying the deodorant chunks from the mangled dog slobbered one instead...at least you would have your dignity. :)

[RaiderH8r]

Cruel is a 240 pound man sitting with a stetson on smelling like Lilacs ..........
Spring IS in the air.....at least around your armpits.

[TheDave]

Cruel is a 240 pound man sitting with a stetson on smelling like Lilacs ..........

Bad decision bro... would've recomended an all natural day...

[Spider]

So the pH balance is messing with your cognitive abilities? Quick, wash, rinse and repeat....Maybe you should have stuck with applying the deodorant chunks from the mangled dog slobbered one instead...at least you would have your dignity. :)
;D asshole .....

[Rascal]

cruel would be a 240 pound man smelling like lilacs sitting on terri's chest trying to teach her to speak like a redneck.

[Spider]

Bad decision bro... would've recomended an all natural day...
I thought about it ..... But I just couldnt hang ......

[RaiderH8r]

I swear if the reading comprehension of my HS students was as poor as half this thread, i would have to fail everyone.

Before the next person comments on how cruel starvation is... Remember... SHE DOESN'T HAVE A BRAIN! Without a cerebrum there is absolutely no way she can comprehend, understand, or process the complex chemical and electrical signals associated with starvation, hunger, dry lips, dehydration, etc....
I'm pretty sure if you teach at a public school at least 1/3 of your students are illiterate.

I'm also sure that the brain has been proven to carve new neural pathways to deal with adverse conditions. See stroke survivors.

[Spider]

cruel would be a 240 pound man smelling like lilacs sitting on terri's chest trying to teach her to speak like a redneck.
you are right the feeding tube would poke me in the ass ... and here i thought you didnt care ...... Lilac scent must be getting to you ;D

[RaiderH8r]

I thought about it ..... But I just couldnt hang ......
Why not? I KNOW the wind is always blowing in WY, just stand down wind from folks.

[Rascal]

You win... :moody:

Since you are the "expert" around here I've got a question about this and I'm to damn lazy to look it up...I know go figure.

Anyway...

Do animals have a cerebrum? I tougth there were basically two parts of the human brain..the part that animals have and then an additional part called the cerebrum.

[TheDave]

Do animals have a cerebrum? I tougth there were basically two parts of the human brain..the part that animals have and then an additional part called the cerebrum.

Yes animals have a cerebrem... well at least the sheep and cow brains I've dissected did..

[Rascal]

Yes animals have a cerebrem... well at least the sheep and cow brains I've dissected did..

never mind...

[RaiderH8r]

Yes animals have a cerebrem... well at least the sheep and cow brains I've dissected did..
BSE....BSE!!!!

[Spider]

Why not? I KNOW the wind is always blowing in WY, just stand down wind from folks.
and get called a sheephearder ... No thank you ;D

[RaiderH8r]

and get called a sheephearder ... No thank you ;D
Interesting, Lilacs v. being called a sheepherder.....interesting.....Wonder what the boys down at the farm implement dealership will think. They might start stickin dollar bills down your britches.....

[TheDave]

I'm pretty sure if you teach at a public school at least 1/3 of your students are illiterate.

I'm also sure that the brain has been proven to carve new neural pathways to deal with adverse conditions. See stroke survivors.


Thank god i teach science... can't be illiterate in my classes. Stoke victims have microscopic lesions, so yes they are able to develop new neural pathways... Terri, according to her cat scan, has a completely liquefied cerebrum. That means there are no pathways

[Spider]

Interesting, Lilacs v. being called a sheepherder.....interesting.....Wonder what the boys down at the farm implement dealership will think. They might start stickin dollar bills down your britches.....
LOL ...... Lathrop John Deere .. sorry you would have to know the area to understand how funny that was ..

[RaiderH8r]

Thank god i teach science... can't be illiterate in my classes. Stoke victims have microscopic lesions, so yes they are able to develop new neural pathways... Terri, according to her cat scan, has a completely liquefied cerebrum. That means there are no pathways
Have you looked at the scans from Ecstasy users? They have liquefied cerebrums. But off topic.

She responds to stimulus, I don't know what the PET, CAT, MRI show, but this isn't as simple as pulling the plug, as has been suggested. This is witholding sustenance to a body that could otherwise survive. Are we willing to consider the further ramifications of this action? That an individual who requires assisted feeding and care with no respitory or circulatory assistance is a candidate for starvation in the name of mercy?

[Blueflame]

Essentially, the Judge is wrong. It's the Florida law that is wrong. Technically, the Federal Judge and Congress are treading on States rights. It's very likely that Atlanta won't agree to see the case either, and the Supreme Court certainly won't.

Ultimately, the much-ballyhooed "Palm Sunday Legislation" will end up changing nothing. Even if the feeding tube is temporarily reinserted, it will merely result in more court wrangling, which, using past court actions as a yardstick, will probably affirm the Florida courts' decisions. And much like Jeb Bush's previous "Terri's Law", the new bill will likely be ruled unconstitutional. The weekend's spectacle has been nothing more than politicians using a family's private tragedy as a platform for political grandstanding. And IMHO, it's reprehensible that they would stoop so low.

[TheDave]

Have you looked at the scans from Ecstasy users? They have liquefied cerebrums. But off topic.

She responds to stimulus, I don't know what the PET, CAT, MRI show, but this isn't as simple as pulling the plug, as has been suggested. This is witholding sustenance to a body that could otherwise survive. Are we willing to consider the further ramifications of this action? That an individual who requires assisted feeding and care with no respitory or circulatory assistance is a candidate for starvation in the name of mercy?

Where do people get this stuff? no one with a liquified cerebrum is walking around doing anything let alone using X.

And as for here responses to stimulus, those are only primal impulses that are housed in the brainstem, medula and pons. They have nothing to do with here ability to conciously respond to anything. I can not stress this enough... SHE HAS NO BRAIN.... let this poor creature and any other creature without a brain go be whith their maker.

[Rascal]

Can somebody provide a link stating that her cerebrum is gone?

[Mile High Shack]

Where do people get this stuff? no one with a liquified cerebrum is walking around doing anything let alone using X.

And as for here responses to stimulus, those are only primal impulses that are housed in the brainstem, medula and pons. They have nothing to do with here ability to conciously respond to anything. I can not stress this enough... SHE HAS NO BRAIN.... let this poor creature and any other creature without a brain go be whith their maker.

you don't believe in a maker ;)

[RaiderH8r]

Where do people get this stuff? no one with a liquified cerebrum is walking around doing anything let alone using X.

And as for here responses to stimulus, those are only primal impulses that are housed in the brainstem, medula and pons. They have nothing to do with here ability to conciously respond to anything. I can not stress this enough... SHE HAS NO BRAIN.... let this poor creature go be whith her maker.
No X users start out with a good brain that gets liquefied by the drug, maybe I should have been more clear.

I'm not arguing that she is brain damaged. She is. I'm arguing that she is not brain dead.

Accepting that she has brain damage means that there is a standard that comes to bear on this issue. This is not a case of pulling the plug and having the heart and lungs cease functioning, this is starvation. Extraordinary means are not being taken to keep her alive, they are simply feeding her. We don't even treat criminals in this fashion. Hitler's death was more merciful for Christ's sake.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Post 293
Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug
I already answered this in the other forum. It's political suicide to oppose it (initiated by republicans) to appear not caring about life (neither party has the fortitude or guts to say what they really feel on many controversial issues). But as I also posted, Bush is a hypocrite here having signed legislation in TX. that would have let Terri pass years ago and then grandstanding yesterday with the "it's better to err on the side of life" comment.

.
I did say that didn't I (got busy trading today)? But it wasn't directed solely at republicans. It was meant to describe the lack of guts from BOTH parties (as I said in the first place). Democrats and republicans fearing political fallout (and losing their jobs) rarely speak what they truly believe on politically dangerous topics (instead they hold party lines at the expense of all Americans) and that is why I've been voting Independent for over 25 years.

[Mile High Shack]

I did say that didn't I (got busy trading today)? But it wasn't directed solely at republicans. It was meant to describe the lack of guts from BOTH parties (as I said in the first place). Democrats and republicans fearing political fallout (and losing their jobs) rarely speak what they truly believe on politically dangerous topics (instead they hold party lines at the expense of all Americans) and that is why I've been voting Independent for over 25 years.
LOL, no offense, but your about as independent as Ted Kennedy

[Bronco_Beerslug]

LOL, no offense, but your about as independent as Ted Kennedy
Ummmmmm, I don't know. That's not what I've been told. I gotten some pretty strong letters in return for some of my commentaries in the papers regarding illegal immigration, right to bear arms, colossal government waste (spending programs in including Medicare), states rights and a few other view points not commonly held by the left.

[Rascal]

Ummmmmm, I don't know. That's not what I've been told. I gotten some pretty strong letters in return for some of my commentaries in the papers regarding illegal immigration, right to bear arms, colossal government waste (spending programs in including Medicare), states rights and a few other view points not commonly held by the left.

Well you have yet to state anything here that would lead us to conclude otherwise.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well you have yet to state anything here that would lead us to conclude otherwise.
Those views are generally posted in the politics forum. You're not going to get a conservative religious right view on this topic from me. Do you vote strict party lines or evaluate each issue, candidate on it's, his merits and have no problem voting for the other party if the majority of your views might be represented?

[RaiderH8r]

Well you have yet to state anything here that would lead us to conclude otherwise.
Slug has his moments, but if I were a pollster I'd definitely put him in the "left-leaning" category.

[kappys]

No X users start out with a good brain that gets liquefied by the drug, maybe I should have been more clear.

I'm not arguing that she is brain damaged. She is. I'm arguing that she is not brain dead.

Accepting that she has brain damage means that there is a standard that comes to bear on this issue. This is not a case of pulling the plug and having the heart and lungs cease functioning, this is starvation. Extraordinary means are not being taken to keep her alive, they are simply feeding her. We don't even treat criminals in this fashion. Hitler's death was more merciful for Christ's sake.


So many errors in this one:

1) X users do not have liquefaction necrosis of the brain. Rather a specfic subset of neurons involved in serotonin transmission seem to be killed leading to a release of serotinin -> high. Note that the vast majority of your brain uses glutamate/Gaba neurotransmitters and is unaffected by the drug. They do not get widespread necrosis of the brain.

2) Noone should be saying that she is braindead. She is not. SHe has a functioning brainstem, but everything above it that codes for conscious recognition, etc. is gone.

3) Hitler shot himself in the head. I, for one, would have no objections to death by firing squad for Schiavo.

[RaiderH8r]

I did say that didn't I (got busy trading today)? But it wasn't directed solely at republicans. It was meant to describe the lack of guts from BOTH parties (as I said in the first place). Democrats and republicans fearing political fallout (and losing their jobs) rarely speak what they truly believe on politically dangerous topics (instead they hold party lines at the expense of all Americans) and that is why I've been voting Independent for over 25 years.
At least in this case, with this legislation, Republicans did step out on the limb and promote a position of ideaology. Which I believe is commendable. It's certainly more politically convenient to just sit aside and say that your hands were tied and you could do nothing more. The Sen. Dems had their opportunity to engage in the debate and discussion and chose instead to clam up. I'll give credit to the House Dems, and I've done it before. I watched the entire debate and both sides conducted themselves eloquently, respectfully, and with compassion. Their statements were generally well thought out. This is a good debate to have and I hope good does come of this. We are in the fortunate position in that we can take our time to carefully consider the implications of this case and it's situation. 15 years of courts and legal battles and countless discussions of this sort haven't answered the fundamental questions in Teri's case which tells me that it is a case that is hitting at the heart of an issue. Debate of things of this sort is a good thing.

[Rascal]

Those views are generally posted in the politics forum. You're not going to get a conservative religious right view on this topic from me. Do you vote strict party lines or evaluate each issue, candidate on it's, his merits and have no problem voting for the other party if the majority of your views might be represented?

I evaluate each issue but found that I typically agree with Republicans on social issues and democrats on economic issues although voting for somebody who supports abortion is a big dilema IMO.

[alkemical]

Why not just put a pillow over her face and smother her to death. Hell get Dr. Jack back here to do it -

[RaiderH8r]

So many errors in this one:

1) X users do not have liquefaction necrosis of the brain. Rather a specfic subset of neurons involved in serotonin transmission seem to be killed leading to a release of serotinin -> high. Note that the vast majority of your brain uses glutamate/Gaba neurotransmitters and is unaffected by the drug. They do not get widespread necrosis of the brain.

2) Noone should be saying that she is braindead. She is not. SHe has a functioning brainstem, but everything above it that codes for conscious recognition, etc. is gone.

3) Hitler shot himself in the head. I, for one, would have no objections to death by firing squad for Schiavo.
1. Clearly making a brief comment about X useage was a bad idea. It was not intended for discussion on this issue. I well know the pathology of the drug, but fundamentally, it chews up your brain.

2. No one should be saying she's brain dead, but they are.

3. Well, we could also line up the short bus and blow that up too I suppose.

[Falconer]

Not knowing the exact condition of your son I can't say if he has the same medical conditions as Terri Schiavo does but the circumstances are completely different. Schiavo is an adult who married and the American judicial system has determined she didn't want to exist in this condition.

As far as if they are in the same condition, I do not know. All I know is that what I saw in the video of her, was very close to the extent that Samuel reacts. The point is, we have been told that Samuel will never grow mentally or physically. We were told that he will probably die in the near future, and that there is nothing else to do for him. Maybe it would be easier for all of us if we took the tube out, but that will not happen. My Sam has done more in this world than I could ever do, and I plan on doing everything I can for him until the day he goes to be with God. Maybe he cannot do all the things that others consider makes a life worth living, but he makes my life all the richer.

As far as the judicial system goes, I lost my faith in that a long time ago. Since there is no written order for Terri, maybe we should err on the side of the parents. No matter what, Mr. Schiavo has interests that lay well outside of Terri.

[Falconer]

it isnt cruel and a deathrow inmate enjoys food the way we do , not through a tube , she just gets what the body needs , nuetrients take time to see someone on a feeding tube for yourself , it is ghastly ..... the Sun Hudson case you should Look up . LABF is having a field day with it ......

A feeding tube is not that bad Spider. Especially if they put it in like Samuel's.

[RaiderH8r]

As far as if they are in the same condition, I do not know. All I know is that what I saw in the video of her, was very close to the extent that Samuel reacts. The point is, we have been told that Samuel will never grow mentally or physically. We were told that he will probably die in the near future, and that there is nothing else to do for him. Maybe it would be easier for all of us if we took the tube out, but that will not happen. My Sam has done more in this world than I could ever do, and I plan on doing everything I can for him until the day he goes to be with God. Maybe he cannot do all the things that others consider makes a life worth living, but he makes my life all the richer.

As far as the judicial system goes, I lost my faith in that a long time ago. Since there is no written order for Terri, maybe we should err on the side of the parents. No matter what, Mr. Schiavo has interests that lay well outside of Terri.

And that sums it up perfectly.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

As far as if they are in the same condition, I do not know. All I know is that what I saw in the video of her, was very close to the extent that Samuel reacts. The point is, we have been told that Samuel will never grow mentally or physically. We were told that he will probably die in the near future, and that there is nothing else to do for him. Maybe it would be easier for all of us if we took the tube out, but that will not happen. My Sam has done more in this world than I could ever do, and I plan on doing everything I can for him until the day he goes to be with God. Maybe he cannot do all the things that others consider makes a life worth living, but he makes my life all the richer.

As far as the judicial system goes, I lost my faith in that a long time ago. Since there is no written order for Terri, maybe we should err on the side of the parents. No matter what, Mr. Schiavo has interests that lay well outside of Terri.
I can't imagine the emotional highs and lows you must be experiencing with your son!
I wish your family the best!

Regarding our system of justice, it's the only one we have and I'll go out on a limb and say it's the best one on the planet. Too many people are trying to use words from the mother and father as their reason for backing them. Does anyone here know what Terri told her husband regarding existing in this condition? What if she actually did tell him she would never want to be kept artificially alive (as our judicial system has determined)?

As an example, how would you feel if your wife was in the same condition, having told you she wouldn't want to exist like this and her parents were trying to take that decision out of your hands?

Is it possible Mr. Schiavo still loves his wife even though he is involved in another relationship now? I don't believe anyone here can say these questions aren't true because we don't know for sure. The courts have ruled over and over and over and over, based on testimony from her parents, relatives, friends and her husband that Terri didn't want to be kept alive artificially.

[Mile High Shack]

It’s doubtful he loves his wife since he has 2 children with another women he started dating soon after his wife went into this state.

If he cared that much, he’d absolve himself from the marriage and let the parents take over…but that require him to miss out on the money he stands to receive…so to me it’s obvious he cares for himself mostly and not her.

Judging from the broken bones they found on her, it could be just a tip of the iceberg in regard for his “love” for his “wife”

[Bronco_Beerslug]

It’s doubtful he loves his wife since he has 2 children with another women he started dating soon after his wife went into this state.

If he cared that much, he’d absolve himself from the marriage and let the parents take over…but that require him to miss out on the money he stands to receive…so to me it’s obvious he cares for himself mostly and not her.

Judging from the broken bones they found on her, it could be just a tip of the iceberg in regard for his “love” for his “wife”
What facts do you have to support those accusations?

[bendog]

What money does he stand to receive?

[TheDave]

What facts do you have to support those accusations?


the bible.... and for him and rascle that's plenty...

[Mile High Shack]

What money does he stand to receive?

medical trust fund

[alkemical]

maybe her parents want the loot

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What money does he stand to receive?
There is an insurance policy of 1.3 million, I believe but legal fees and medical bills have taken care of most of that. Mr. Schiavo has been offered more than 10 million (according to his attorneys and newspaper reports) to turn over control to her parents.

[Mile High Shack]

the bible.... and for him and rascle that's plenty...
Yep it’s in lamentations chapt 42 vs. 4

“low there shall be a one name Terry who will wield the power to unite the religious masses into revolt to overthrow the godless masses”

[Mile High Shack]

maybe her parents want the loot
That’s possible too

Money can make people very greedy and evil

[bendog]

the medical trust fund is broke. the money's done gone.

somebody posted that there's a life insurance policy, but I've never seen a link. And, I think it's impossible, because any whole life with a face value big enough to be a factor would've been prohibititive, and any term life the poor woman had 15 years ago was terminated and not rewritten.

I think MH's right. the hubby's only way to make money is give the woman to her parents.

[alkemical]

I guess my stance is this:

I don't want the fed. gov't in this issue period. I for one am not a doctor, and i for one am not believing any info the media is pushing out on this issue.

I find this whole subject of politisizing death of someone sickening. The 'moral wars' in this country is just being used to fracture the US public.

[RaiderH8r]

the medical trust fund is broke. the money's done gone.

somebody posted that there's a life insurance policy, but I've never seen a link. And, I think it's impossible, because any whole life with a face value big enough to be a factor would've been prohibititive, and any term life the poor woman had 15 years ago was terminated and not rewritten.

I think MH's right. the hubby's only way to make money is give the woman to her parents.
I guarantee the networks put together a lucrative movie of the week deal that will dwarf the $10 million offer.

[Mile High Shack]

I guess my stance is this:

I don't want the fed. gov't in this issue period. I for one am not a doctor, and i for one am not believing any info the media is pushing out on this issue.

I find this whole subject of politisizing death of someone sickening. The 'moral wars' in this country is just being used to fracture the US public.
I don’t even mean to make it a political argument….to me it’s an ethical question, I didn’t like the government getting involved, even if it was only getting a judge to review it again.

If anything, this should get people to get a living will done in case something like this happens……I can’t even imagine if my wife was in the same predicament….OR if I was and my wife had to make the decision….UGH.

This shouldn’t be political at all, but ethical…when does life end? How far should we go to continue it…man

I just don’t know, I just have an opinion that being starved to death is kinda cruel.

[bendog]

So, what's your pt. He'll be rich either way. So, money isn't the issue.

[TheDave]

I guarantee the networks put together a lucrative movie of the week deal that will dwarf the $10 million offer.

I doubt that...

[alkemical]

I don’t even mean to make it a political argument….to me it’s an ethical question, I didn’t like the government getting involved, even if it was only getting a judge to review it again.

If anything, this should get people to get a living will done in case something like this happens……I can’t even imagine if my wife was in the same predicament….OR if I was and my wife had to make the decision….UGH.

This shouldn’t be political at all, but ethical…when does life end? How far should we go to continue it…man

I just don’t know, I just have an opinion that being starved to death is kinda cruel.


It's not so much you MHS as the media - talk radio is using this to push it's agenda (ok, not just talk radio, but i listen to lots of radio) -

If starving her is cruel, would you rather it be a lethal injection?

I know if i'm in that situtaion, i'd rather be dead.

[Mile High Shack]

I’d rather be dead too……….if I didn’t feel any pain I wouldn’t mind being starved to death….that’s all my point…if she can’t feel pain and won’t suffer, I guess I don’t have a problem with it

If she feels pain, I think something is wrong with it.

[bendog]

It's like the ultimate decision where both choices are just about unthinkable. But, I get the impression that she's much less 'aware' than Falconers son. I want to make clear that Falconer is a hero, imo.

[ak1971]

I think Carlin sums it up.....


And don't be pulling any plugs on me either. Here's another bunch of macho asshole bull**** floating around this country. People talking about, "Aw pull the plug on me. If I'm ever like that. If I'm cromatosed. If I'm like a vegetable. Pull the plug on me." **** you, leave my plug alone. Get an extension cord for my plug. I want everything you got, tubes, cords, plugs, probes, electrodes, IVs. You got something (click), stick it in me man. You find out I got a hole I didn't know I had, put a ****in plug in it. Vegetable ****, I don't care if I look like an artichoke. Ssaaaaave my ass. There's three things I want if I'm ever in that condition. Three things I gotta have. Ice cream, morphine, and television. You give me that ice cream every two hours. Give me that morphine, about...every ten minutes. And turn on the ****ing TV! I wanna see Heraldo! And don't be coming to visit me. I got no time for life people I'm brain-dead here. Ain't you people got no respect for the brain-dead. Hey, you gotta be brain-dead to watch Heraldo in the first place. You might as well watch it when your clinically brain-dead.

[TheDave]

As does Adam Sandler in "Wedding Singer"

You don't know how much I need you.
While you're near me I don't feel blue.
And when we kiss I know you need me too.
Can't believe I found a love that's so pure and true.
But it all was bull$hit.
It was a goddam joke.
And when I think of you Linda,
I hope you Fcking choke.
I hope you're glad with what you've done to me.
I lay in bed all day long feeling melancholy.
You left me here all alone, tears running constantly.
Oh somebody kill me please, somebody kill me plee-ase,
I'm on my knees, pretty pretty please kill me.
I want to die.
Put a bullet in my head.

[Taco John]

Wow. I can't believe they're actually going to kill this woman.

[watermock]

Her husband closed the door and stuck three syringes of insulin in her. That's when she took a turn for the worse. She also had bruises consistent with a beating. The case was originally turned over to homicide.

[alkemical]

Our gov't is a good supporter of state sponsored death.

[Falconer]

Thank god i teach science... can't be illiterate in my classes. Stoke victims have microscopic lesions, so yes they are able to develop new neural pathways... Terri, according to her cat scan, has a completely liquefied cerebrum. That means there are no pathways

I will admit ignorance on this subject, but when I was talking about it to my wife she was a little perplexed by this. She has done a lot of research on brain injuries, not only in my son's case but because she deals with adults with head injuries, and she did not believe that Terri would be able to do the things we have seen on TV. The tracking of an object and smiling are things that people with a completely liquefied cerebrum would not do according to what she understands. Just food for thought.

[Falconer]

It's like the ultimate decision where both choices are just about unthinkable. But, I get the impression that she's much less 'aware' than Falconers son. I want to make clear that Falconer is a hero, imo.

Thank you for the kind words, but I am not a hero. I am only a father that is blessed by the grace of God to be halfway sane. Ok maybe not halfway, but I started out a little less than all the way sane anyhow. Besides who could resist my little guy?

[TheDave]

I will admit ignorance on this subject, but when I was talking about it to my wife she was a little perplexed by this. She has done a lot of research on brain injuries, not only in my son's case but because she deals with adults with head injuries, and she did not believe that Terri would be able to do the things we have seen on TV. The tracking of an object and smiling are things that people with a completely liquefied cerebrum would not do according to what she understands. Just food for thought.


The problem is that the video where she "tracks" an object is what 10 - seconds long. The complete video that was shown to the courts is a few hours long. "Experts" that have seen the complete video disagree on whether she is making eye contact or not to start with, but they all seem to agree that these interactions are mere coincedences when considering the overwhelming # of times that she showed no response to stimuli.

I have always felt that the release of these video segments has been very disingenuous. It gives people a sense that this poor woman is suffering from some kind of currable brain ailment. No matter what peoples motives are right now i persoanlly feel that everyone should simply let her go.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The problem is that the video where she "tracks" an object is what 10 - seconds long. The complete video that was shown to the courts is a few hours long. "Experts" that have seen the complete video disagree on whether she is making eye contact or not to start with, but they all seem to agree that these interactions are mere coincedences when considering the overwhelming # of times that she showed no response to stimuli.

I have always felt that the release of these video segments has been very disingenuous. It gives people a sense that this poor woman is suffering from some kind of currable brain ailment. No matter what peoples motives are right now i persoanlly feel that everyone should simply let her go.
Hopefully, this will end by tomorrow. And if there was any doubt about the republicans agenda in all of this..........

As the GOP-dominated Congress scrambled to keep Schiavo alive, it was disclosed that a memo distributed to Republican senators described the Schiavo case as a "great political issue" that could help the GOP with Christian conservatives in the 2006 midterm elections.

"This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," according to the memo. Some GOP lawmakers decried the fact the memo was leaked. Rep. Curt Weldon (news, bio, voting record) (R-Pa.) said in a CNN interview that the Republican leadership in the House did not want to politicize the issue.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/schiavobillsignedbybush&e=5

[watermock]

If you look at her treatment history, and the attempts on her life by her "husband", by injecting insulen into her body, you would find that he has systematically tried to eliminate her, all the way to spending every cent that was intended for her care to lawyers to pull the plug. Early after he initial injury, she wasn't nearly as bad as she is now.

[Blueflame]

If you look at her treatment history, and the attempts on her life by her "husband", by injecting insulen into her body, you would find that he has systematically tried to eliminate her, all the way to spending every cent that was intended for her care to lawyers to pull the plug. Early after he initial injury, she wasn't nearly as bad as she is now.

The report Ms. Schiavo's court-appointed Guardian Ad Litem prepared for Jeb Bush totally contradicts every one of those assertions, Mock. The link to that report was posted 2 days ago on Page 3 of this thread, but apparently you missed it, so here it is again. :)

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

[Falconer]

The problem is that the video where she "tracks" an object is what 10 - seconds long. The complete video that was shown to the courts is a few hours long. "Experts" that have seen the complete video disagree on whether she is making eye contact or not to start with, but they all seem to agree that these interactions are mere coincedences when considering the overwhelming # of times that she showed no response to stimuli.

I have always felt that the release of these video segments has been very disingenuous. It gives people a sense that this poor woman is suffering from some kind of currable brain ailment. No matter what peoples motives are right now i persoanlly feel that everyone should simply let her go.

It is true that these video segments may be biased, so I can see your point there. I have never believed that she has a problem that can be cured, but that is not important to me anyway. If a person has to be cured of a condition to be worthwhile, that leaves me out of that camp anyway. I can honestly say that no matter what peoples motives are right now I personally feel that she should be given food and water.

[watermock]

The report Ms. Schiavo's court-appointed Guardian Ad Litem prepared for Jeb Bush totally contradicts every one of those assertions, Mock. The link to that report was posted 2 days ago on Page 3 of this thread, but apparently you missed it, so here it is again. :)

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Do you mean this?

"The hearings and testimony before the trial court leading to the decision to discontinue artificial life support included admitted hearsay from Theresa's brother-in-law (Michael Schiavo's brother) and his wife (Michael's Schiavo's sister-in-law) along with testimony from Michael.

(notice the absence of other statements made at the begining of the thread. These were deemed. "irrelevant or heresay". Regardless, they were ignored and not put into play. The AD HOC Guardian didn't consider them whatsoever.)

The testimony of these parties referenced specific conversations in which Theresa commented about her desire never to be placed on artificial life support. The testimony reflected conversations at or proximate to funerals of close family members who had been on artificial life support. The context and content of the testimony, while hearsay, was deemed credible and consistent and was used by the court as a supporting bases for its decision to discontinue artificial life support.

The Schindler's new evidence ostensibly reflected adversely on Michael Schiavo's role as Guardian. It related to his personal romantic life, the fact that he had relationships with other women, that he had allegedly failed to provide appropriate care and treatment for Theresa, that he was wasting the assets within the guardianship account, and that he was no longer competent to represent Theresa's best interests."

"The court denied the Schindler's motions to remove the guardian, allowing that the evidence was not sufficient and in some instances, not relevant. It set a date for the artificial life support to be discontinued, as of 24 April 2001.

The decision was appealed to the Florida 2nd District Court of Appeals (DCA), and was affirmed in January 2001. The requested appeal to the Florida Supreme Court was denied on 23 April 2001, one day before the scheduled removal of Theresa's feeding tube.

On 24 April 2001, Theresa Schiavo's artificial feeding tube was clamped, and she ceased receiving nutrition and hydration. Under normal circumstances, Theresa would die naturally within a week to ten days.

Two days after the clamping of Theresa's feeding tube, the Schindlers filed a civil action in their capacity as "natural guardians" for Theresa. The trial court, in emergency review, granted a temporary injunction and the tube was unclamped. Michael Schiavo filed an emergency motion to vacate the injunction. This led to the second review and appeal to the 2nd DCA.

The 2nd DCA found that the intention of Florida Statutes 765 with respect to matters such as Theresa's, is to help expedite proceedings of the court when decisions have been made by the bona fide guardian. The 2nd DCA also noted that the Court had acted independently as proxy decision maker regarding the removal of artificial life support.

In October 2001, the 2nd DCA concluded that the Schindlers "have presented no credible evidence suggesting new treatment can restore Mrs. Schiavo." The injunction was lifted and plans moved forward to discontinue artificial nutrition."

At that point, she very well may of been beyond any recovery. Remember, we are talking about events that happened around TWO YEARS after her initial injury. I assert more injury was deliberately inflicted, and withheld from evidence as hearsay, yet the "husbands" hearsay was accepted by the AD HOC guardian.

So just as I said, credible doubt was created, and ignored, and much testimony wasn't even allowed, as heresay. I saw this AD HOC jerk on TV last night squirming. Like I said before, it was all done "by the book". Nothing I have said has been discredited whatsoever. The fact is these statements were not allowed.

[Blueflame]

The process the GAL went through to arrive at his conclusions is described in detail in the report. If those assertions were credible to him... or if they were independently verifiable... my guess is that they would have been given some weight in his report.

It's my opinion that the GAL's report is probably the most objective look at things since he's the only involved party who had no clear agenda or motive to introduce any slant or bias.

[watermock]

Well, I saw an interview with some of those conclusions. Basically, he said that the letter of the law determined his conclusions. I'm not saying he didn't do due dilligence on the evidence he was given. As I have stated, the real criminal activity occured around 1990-1992. This is when she was injured, and when her condition took a turn for the worse after an alleged insulin injection.

Also, the behavior before the malpractice jury, where he was crying, talking about how much he needed the money for HER, is in direct contrast to his behavior once he got the 1.3 million, when the objective was totally to have her rehabilitation totally removed. Let me remind you, he had her moved to a HOSPICE WITH EVERY INTENTION OF HER DYING FROM THAT POINT FORWARD.

[Blueflame]

Well, I saw an interview with some of those conclusions. Basically, he said that the letter of the law determined his conclusions. I'm not saying he didn't do due dilligence on the evidence he was given. As I have stated, the real criminal activity occured around 1990-1992. This is when she was injured, and when her condition took a turn for the worse after an alleged insulin injection.

Also, the behavior before the malpractice jury, where he was crying, talking about how much he needed the money for HER, is in direct contrast to his behavior once he got the 1.3 million, when the objective was totally to have her rehabilitation totally removed. Let me remind you, he had her moved to a HOSPICE WITH EVERY INTENTION OF HER DYING FROM THAT POINT FORWARD.

If he really did give her insulin, wouldn't there be medical records to support that claim? Or any of the claims of abuse? They were reportedly seeing a fertility doctor (GAL's report)... and in the course of the required testing, surely any anomalies would have been noted and documented.

I've seen/read enough from both the family and the husband to take most of what either party says with a big grain of salt as both inherently have an agenda, but the GAL has no such conflict of interest.

[-Slap-]

Hopefully, this will end by tomorrow. And if there was any doubt about the republicans agenda in all of this..........

As the GOP-dominated Congress scrambled to keep Schiavo alive, it was disclosed that a memo distributed to Republican senators described the Schiavo case as a "great political issue" that could help the GOP with Christian conservatives in the 2006 midterm elections.

"This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," according to the memo. Some GOP lawmakers decried the fact the memo was leaked. Rep. Curt Weldon (news, bio, voting record) (R-Pa.) said in a CNN interview that the Republican leadership in the House did not want to politicize the issue.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/schiavobillsignedbybush&e=5

Future message of the day material.

[Tredici]

Anyone who thinks this is a "great" anything and uses a tragic situation to try and advance any selfish cause have no decency and no sense of humanity. Oh wait, that about describes any politician.

[RaiderH8r]

Hopefully, this will end by tomorrow. And if there was any doubt about the republicans agenda in all of this..........

As the GOP-dominated Congress scrambled to keep Schiavo alive, it was disclosed that a memo distributed to Republican senators described the Schiavo case as a "great political issue" that could help the GOP with Christian conservatives in the 2006 midterm elections.

"This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," according to the memo. Some GOP lawmakers decried the fact the memo was leaked. Rep. Curt Weldon (news, bio, voting record) (R-Pa.) said in a CNN interview that the Republican leadership in the House did not want to politicize the issue.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/schiavobillsignedbybush&e=5
Somebody will be fired over this. Good luck trying to find a job after some dumb sh!t like that. However, the inane and insensitive observations of one lowly staff member (or Dan Rather, I'll wait to see if the document passes muster) doesn't cloud the larger issue here. What constitutes life?

[watermock]

This is a classic case of trying to formulate the real issue into what the Liberals, (the ones who espouse life?", into their own hill of beans.

This pathetic attempt will fail. They had their chance to make a stand, and instead slept in, later expressing their indignation from afar. IMO, if you have an emergency vote, why not vote?

Of course, Bush was too busy on his ranch to show up right?

What is so funny is that the libs bring this up like the right for life brigade isn't going to vote for it anyway. What the hell did you expect them to do? They didn't create this situation! The husband did! There were funds and providers for this woman the moment she was injured. If there was a constitutinal conflict, maybe the libs should of come out and made their case. Unfortuantely, if they did, they would of done nothing but fillibuster the issue, further damaging their agenda of Minority Rule.

I also find it absolutely hillarious that a "leak" would assert that this was designed to secure the "christian right". How ****ing amusing. Now tell me exactly, where was the "Christian Right" headed anyway?

I suppose the democrats were going to steal it by not even showing up? God!

Unbelievable. That party is so impotent all they can to is pout? Possibly the most important issue is that this Federal Judge flipped the finger at Congress, taking a nap before making a ruling, hoping the woman would "just go away", delaying the Atlanta judgement by a full day.

I would like to know this Judges rationale for waiting overnight. If he isn't going to rule, essentially a chicken shiat behavior when real issues come about, especially in Florida and the imfamous 9th in San Fransisco, they act like they are totally absolved. You have to understand, an investigation will obviously show malfeasance in many regards. The object now is to preserve state rights and make this woman go away, along with the obvious screw ups in the whole process.

The judge will come clean. All he has to do is rule on what is set before him. That is an obvious decision. The main issue for this judge isn't justice, it's preserving his place in the judicial system. Danm the fact Jeb Bush passed a new law, we removed it.

Anyone that thinks the court isn't legislating from the bench is ignorant, yet, any attempt to reel in the idiot Judges by congress are deemed an infringement on the separation of the branches of government. The fact remains, that the congress has the right, if not DUTY, to bring malfeasance into the air if the Justice system is making legislation itself.

[Crushaholic]

That's just common sense that the politicians were trying to gain political capital at the expense of Schaivo, and it's sick. I don't remember another instance where they tried to intervene to save someone's life. To me, that memo is a non-story, but the Democrats will find whatever ammo they can to shoot at the Republicans.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Reinsertion of Schiavo Feeding Tube Denied

By MARK LONG, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - After losing two consecutive appeals in federal court, Terri Schiavo's parents vowed Wednesday to take their fight to the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) as their severely brain-damaged daughter began her fifth full day without the feeding tube that has kept her alive for more than a decade.

In a 2-1 ruling early Wednesday, a panel of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta said the parents "failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims" that Terri's feeding tube should be reinserted immediately.

"There is no denying the absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo," the ruling said. "We all have our own family, our own loved ones, and our own children. However, we are called upon to make a collective, objective decision concerning a question of law."

In his dissent, Judge Charles R. Wilson said Schiavo's "imminent" death would end the case before it could be fully considered. "In fact, I fail to see any harm in reinserting the feeding tube," he wrote.

Wednesday's ruling was the latest legal blow for Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, as their 41-year-old daughter's life hangs in balance. Doctors have said that Schiavo could survive one to two weeks without water and nutrients.

On Tuesday, a federal judge in Tampa also rejected the parents' emergency request.

Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents, said Wednesday that the couple will appeal to the Supreme Court. "The Schindlers will be filing an appropriate appeal to save their daughter's life," he said.

Howard Simon of the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) of Florida praised Wednesday's ruling.

"It's naive to ever say this may be over, but the U.S. Supreme Court has declined to get into this case (before) and it may be the ruling that came out this morning that may finally be the end of this case," Simon said.

The Schindlers have been locked for years in a battle with Schiavo's husband over whether her feeding tube should be disconnected. State courts have sided with Michael Schiavo, who insists his wife told him she would never want to be kept alive artificially.

Even before the parents' appeal was filed with the 11th Circuit, Michael Schiavo urged the court not to grant an emergency request to restore nutrition.

"That would be a horrific intrusion upon Mrs. Schiavo's personal liberty," said the filing by his attorney, George Felos. He filed a response to the Schindlers' appeal and said he would go to the Supreme Court if the tube were ordered reconnected.

Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly from a chemical imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. Court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

Her parents argue that she could get better and that she would never have wanted to be cut off from food and water.

An emergency filing to the high court would go first to Justice Anthony Kennedy (news - web sites), a Reagan appointee who has staked a moderate position on social issues.

Kennedy would have the option to act on the petition alone, although on previous emergency requests involving Schiavo he has referred the matter to the full nine-member court.

The Supreme Court's history on right-to-die cases is pretty thin.



It ruled in 1990 that a terminally ill person has a right to refuse life-sustaining treatment. And next term it plans to consider whether the federal government can prosecute doctors who help ill patients die.

Between those cases, the court has not said much, choosing to allow states to decide the issue.

Mary Schindler has pleaded with state lawmakers to save her daughter's life.

"Please, senators, for the love of God, I'm begging you, don't let my daughter die of thirst," she said Tuesday outside her daughter's hospice, before she broke down and was escorted away.

Florida lawmakers previously have failed to pass legislation that could have prevented the removal of the tube. They may consider another bill Wednesday, but state Sen. Daniel Webster said he has yet to persuade any lawmakers to change their votes.

In court documents, the Schindlers said their daughter began "a significant decline" late Monday. Her eyes were sunken and dark, and her lips and face were dry.

"While she still made eye contact with me when I spoke to her, she was becoming increasingly lethargic," Bob Schindler said in the papers. "Terri no longer attempted to verbalize back to me when I spoke to her."

Demonstrators who gathered outside Terri Schiavo's hospice here decried the courts' decisions. One woman was arrested Tuesday for trespassing after trying to bring Schiavo a cup of water.

"This is a clear cut case of judicial tyranny. All the judges who have ruled against Terri are tyrants, and we fully expected this decision," said Tammy Melton, 37, a high school teacher from Monterey, Tenn.

But Richard Avant, who lives down the street from the hospice, carried a sign reading "Honor her wishes."

"We represent the silent majority, if you look at the polls," Avant said. "We agree that Congress overstepped their bounds."

Over the weekend, Republicans in Congress pushed through unprecedented emergency legislation aimed at prolonging Schiavo's life by allowing the case to be reviewed by federal courts.

On Tuesday, U.S. District Judge James Whittemore of Tampa rejected the parents' request to have the tube reinserted, saying they had not established a "substantial likelihood of success" at a trial on their claim that Schiavo's religious and due process rights have been violated.

The Bush administration "would have preferred a different ruling" from Whittemore, White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "We hope that they would be able to have relief through the appeals process."

The Justice Department (news - web sites) also filed a court statement, saying an injunction was "plainly warranted" to carry out the wishes of Congress to provide federal court jurisdiction over the case.

___

Associated Press Writer By Errin Haines in Atlanta contributed to this report.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

[Mile High Shack]

I just never realized food and water were medical items………..

[watermock]

No one is ever sure. The only ones who claim to know what’s best for the profoundly disabled are those who seek to benefit the most by having them legally murdered.


On Monday, February 21, new hearings will commence before Judge Greer with regard to the Schiavo case. The Empire Journal reports that David Gibbs III, attorney representing Terri’s parents Robert and Mary Schindler, will argue that new medical tests be ordered for Terri based upon a new brain imaging study published in the journal Neurology. These tests could determine whether Terri Schiavo is, in fact, in a PVS. Since Judge Greer believes she is, ruled to have her killed and has thus far refused the admission of any medical evidence that would save Terri’s life, I’d be shocked to see him budge.


Greer has been acting in the dual role of judge and guardian ad litem. He previously denied a petition by Terri’s parents that their daughter be given a swallowing test, and has denied them the right to visit Terri. He continues to promote the interests of Michael Schiavo by refusing Terri the right to independent counsel, a right which even serial killers like Ted Bundy received.


Whenever people discuss euthanasia, you’ll always find those who will defend the odious practice. However, no one defends domestic violence. That leads to the 6 ft. 6 inch, 250 pound problem: Michael Schiavo. The evidence compiled against him suggests a history and pattern of domestic abuse against Terri and other women that is strong and significant. An immediate criminal investigation is warranted.


The main evidence comes from a bone scan taken on March 5, 1991. As Terri’s guardian, Michael Schiavo denied her family access to Terri’s records, the results of which were not made available until November, 2002. This scan indicated numerous broken bones in various stages of healing, including compressions fractures, a broken back, pelvis, ankle, bone bruises and ossifications.


Board certified radiologist Dr. Walker read the scan in 1991 and interpreted the results as abnormal, which he attributed to either an accident or earlier trauma. Based on the remodeling process of her bones, Dr. Walker stated in his deposition that a) the injuries indicated by the scan occurred on or around the time that Terri Schiavo collapsed; b) the abnormalities on the bone scan were not typical of someone suffering cardiac arrest and collapsing to the floor, and c) the fractures indicated by the bone scan are not typical of patients bedridden only thirteen months. As recorded in Dr. Walker’s November 21, 2003 deposition, Terri might have been the victim of foul play via a blow to her body, being thrown into a sharp furniture corner, or assaulted with a blunt object.


On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, “Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.”


Other medical testimonies are in agreement. One medical expert testified that a diagnosis of a heart attack was never made. Another testified that Terri’s rigid neck indicates she may have been the victim of strangulation. Psychiatrist and expert witness Carole E. Lieberman, M.D., M.P.H. offered preliminary thoughts and provided a chilling profile of Michael Schiavo as an abusive husband.


Prior to Terri’s collapse, there were serious financial problems in her marriage and her husband Michael tried to control her behavior. He was fired from six jobs in two years, some of which he held only two weeks. They often lived on her income, which Michael often spent on himself. He monitored her odometer and isolated her from her family and friends. On the day of her collapse, Michael and Terri had a bad fight after he accused her of spending too much money at the hairdresser.


Dr. Lieberman concludes: “He (Michael) should most definitely be investigated as the perpetrator of the ‘incident’ that caused Terri’s collapse and her current condition.”


Michael Schiavo insists that Terri stated early in their marriage that she never would want to be kept on life support. Even if that were true, Terri is not on life support; she breathes on her own. Since Terri has no written will, everything Michael Schiavo says is hearsay. He violated numerous Florida statutes and the Americans for Disabilities Act by failing to perform his duties as his wife’s guardian, most notably by denying his disabled wife basic medical care as part of a malpractice settlement award he received.


However, of all Michael’s offensive actions against his wife, what I deem most suspicious was his decision to have Terri cremated immediately upon her demise. In all the documentation on this case, there is not a single account of Terri Schiavo having ever expressed a desire to be cremated. Michael’s excuse is to say that she wouldn’t want a standard burial because she “doesn’t like bugs.” I’m not buying. The likely reason is that Michael has something to hide – like the cause of her numerous bone injuries, perhaps? – and he doesn’t want an autopsy to uncover any incriminating evidence.


So, what really happened on February 25, 1990? We know that Terri fell in her home and sustained serious injuries. We know that Michael Schiavo, who was trained in CPR, oddly did not administer CPR to his wife. We know for the past fifteen years his only mission has been to deny any rehabilitation for Terri.


Dr. Carole Lieberman observed, “If Terri were to be allowed to die, as Michael has been desperately struggling to achieve for years, it could help him escape detection. This would be a grave miscarriage of justice.”

[Spider]

Reinsertion of Schiavo Feeding Tube Denied

By MARK LONG, Associated Press Writer

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - After losing two consecutive appeals in federal court, Terri Schiavo's parents vowed Wednesday to take their fight to the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) as their severely brain-damaged daughter began her fifth full day without the feeding tube that has kept her alive for more than a decade.


___

Associated Press Writer By Errin Haines in Atlanta contributed to this report.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman
Sad story , there are no winners in this , only losers ..... I feel her parents pain , and I understand the choices made ....... My depest regret is , this case was used as a politicall football ...... The States had their rights trampled on ..... There is some good that came out of all this , More Americans are aware , that thousands of these choices are made daily , and none of them are easy .....

[Exile_In_SJ]

Hopefully, this will end by tomorrow. And if there was any doubt about the republicans agenda in all of this..........

As the GOP-dominated Congress scrambled to keep Schiavo alive, it was disclosed that a memo distributed to Republican senators described the Schiavo case as a "great political issue" that could help the GOP with Christian conservatives in the 2006 midterm elections.

"This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," according to the memo. Some GOP lawmakers decried the fact the memo was leaked. Rep. Curt Weldon (news, bio, voting record) (R-Pa.) said in a CNN interview that the Republican leadership in the House did not want to politicize the issue.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/schiavobillsignedbybush&e=5

I read the article and there was this curious phrase in it...

'An unsigned GOP memo'

Wow, then of course it has to be true, kind of like the same memos Dan Rather had...hmmmmmmm

[Exile_In_SJ]

Michael Schiavo is pretty much pond scum.

[Mtbrncofn]

Michael Schiavo is pretty much pond scum.


That's the general idea I get too, Exile.

[Exile_In_SJ]

The guy has children with another woman shortly after Terri ends up in her conditionm all the while professing his love for Terri.

No matter what happens to this poor woman, this poor excuse for a human being Michael Schiavo, will eventually have to answer for what he did.

[Arkie]

I wonder why Michael Schaivo tried to prevent the nurses from treating Terri’s infections. Why wouldn't he allow her to be given speech or swallow therapy? Why did he not allow her to be given a “system” for communicating? He wouldn’t even let the nurses put a rolled-up washcloth in her hand so that her fingers wouldn’t curl in.

Why did he have Terri’s cats put to death… Why did he stopped all her antibiotics… and why did he melt down her wedding ring for cash?

I feel so sorry for Terri, but I can't stand her "husband."

One last question...

What's so wrong about erring on the side of life? Who cares what Bush or any other politition says. That's not the issue. Not all doctors agree on Terri's condition. Is it alright to execute an alledged criminal when both sides disagree and the evidence is in dispute?

If the side that wants her to die is wrong, there is nothing we can do to turn back. If the side that wants her to live is wrong, they can still starve her next month or next year. The family loves her and wants her to live. They are footing the bills. I guess I just don't understand why it's so important to so many that they take away her food.

[Mtbrncofn]

Great post, Bosko.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What's so wrong about erring on the side of life? Who cares what Bush or any other politition says. That's not the issue. Not all doctors agree on Terri's condition. Is it alright to execute an alledged criminal when both sides disagree and the evidence is in dispute?

If the side that wants her to die is wrong, there is nothing we can do to turn back. If the side that wants her to live is wrong, they can still starve her next month or next year. The family loves her and wants her to live. They are footing the bills. I guess I just don't understand why it's so important to so many that they take away her food.


How many more times?????????????????????

This just didn't start this month. It has been going on for years. The judicial system made the decision after reviewing ALL available evidence OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

If you and or yours want to be kept alive in this condition be sure and sign a AMD stating so.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I read the article and there was this curious phrase in it...

'An unsigned GOP memo'

Wow, then of course it has to be true, kind of like the same memos Dan Rather had...hmmmmmmm

Bush <a href="http://www.bradfriedman.com/BradBlog/Images/BushTool.jpg">tool</a>?
Another curious phrase.........................
Some GOP lawmakers decried the fact the memo was leaked.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Parents File New Federal Appeal in Schiavo Case
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (Reuters) - The parents of a brain-damaged Florida woman, Terri Schiavo, asked the full U.S. appeals court in Atlanta on Wednesday to consider their request her feeding tube be reinserted after a court panel earlier rejected their appeal.

The parents asked for an "expedited rehearing" of the case by all 12 judges of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) in Atlanta after a three-judge panel upheld a lower federal court's refusal to order the feeding resumed.

The parents were also seeking help from Florida lawmakers to try to prolong the life of their daughter alive whose feeding tube was removed five days ago under a state court order.

Bob and Mary Schindler's fight to keep their daughter alive -- against the wishes of her husband and legal guardian -- has become a cause celebre for evangelical Christians, anti-abortion activists and has won support from the Republican-led U.S. Congress and President Bush
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20050323/pl_nm/rights_schiavo_dc_100

[Mtbrncofn]

So what is her actual condition right now? Anyone know?

[Rohirrim]

I wonder why Michael Schaivo tried to prevent the nurses from treating Terri’s infections. Why wouldn't he allow her to be given speech or swallow therapy? Why did he not allow her to be given a “system” for communicating? He wouldn’t even let the nurses put a rolled-up washcloth in her hand so that her fingers wouldn’t curl in.

Why did he have Terri’s cats put to death… Why did he stopped all her antibiotics… and why did he melt down her wedding ring for cash?

I feel so sorry for Terri, but I can't stand her "husband."

One last question...

What's so wrong about erring on the side of life? Who cares what Bush or any other politition says. That's not the issue. Not all doctors agree on Terri's condition. Is it alright to execute an alledged criminal when both sides disagree and the evidence is in dispute?

If the side that wants her to die is wrong, there is nothing we can do to turn back. If the side that wants her to live is wrong, they can still starve her next month or next year. The family loves her and wants her to live. They are footing the bills. I guess I just don't understand why it's so important to so many that they take away her food.

The issue is not who's right or wrong. That's an entirely philosophical question. The question is (just as in abortions), who has the legal right to make the decision? Tom DeLay thinks this is the perfect case to get the spotlight off of his lack of ethics. Bush and the Right to Lifers think it's the perfect case to set a precedent that can morph over to the abortion question. The parents think it's their right because she is their child, even though she emancipated, left their home, got married, and (presumably) became an adult. Six different courts have decided that the right to make the decision belongs to the surviving spouse. His character, or lack of it (according to subjective biases), is immaterial.

[Crushaholic]

So what is her actual condition right now? Anyone know?

It can't be good. I think she's been without food and water since Friday... :-/

[football idiot]

it's awful hard to live more than a week or so without water.

maybe she's on IV's for fluids?

starving to death isn't much fun either.

oh well. it's a tragedy that didn't have to be a national event. so be it.

I'm more interested in her husband and whether he has a criminal trial coming, depending on who looks at the facts. what's the statute of limitations on wife-assault, attempted murder, etc. etc.?

[watermock]

I'm going to rise from the dead and terminate someone on survivor.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm more interested in her husband and whether he has a criminal trial coming, depending on who looks at the facts. what's the statute of limitations on wife-assault, attempted murder, etc. etc.?
What was he charged with?

------------------------------------
Appeals Court Rebuffs Schiavo Parents
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (Reuters) - A U.S. appeals court on Wednesday denied a request for a full bench hearing on a bid by the parents of brain-damaged Florida woman Terri Schiavo to have her feeding tube restored, a court official said.

The judges of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) in Atlanta voted 10 to 2 not to grant a full hearing, the official said.

The decision closed another legal avenue to the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who have fought their son-in-law for seven years in the courts to prolong their daughter's life.

The Schindlers had asked the full appeals court to overturn a three-judge panel's refusal overnight, by a 2-1 majority, to order a resumption of tube feeding that was halted under a state court order on Friday.

The parents' lawyers had argued in a written brief that a law passed by Congress over the weekend made clear a new federal trial was in order, and that the only way to permit that was by keeping Schiavo alive.

"Although barbarically deprived of food and water now for six days, the status quo is that she still lives," they said.

Doctors say Schiavo was likely to remain alive for one to two weeks after her feeding tube was removed.

Schiavo, 41, suffered brain damage after cardiac arrest in 1990 and was left in a "persistent vegetative state." State courts have sided with her husband Michael Schiavo's view that she would not want to be kept alive in that condition.

Her parents say she responds to them and could recover, and their determination to keep her alive has galvanized the Christian right and anti-abortion activists, and won support from the Republican-led Congress and President Bush (news - web sites).

The law raced through Congress sought to circumvent years of state court rulings and push the case into federal court for a new trial.

Its backers clearly assumed any federal judge given the case would first order feeding restored, but the federal appeals court's three-judge panel stressed in its ruling that the law did not spell that out.

Opinion polls show most Americans oppose the Congressional intervention, and critics have assailed it as an assault on federalism and civil rights, and as political meddling in a family dispute.

FROM COURT TO CONGRESS, AND BACK

But the parents' reinvigorated legal maneuvers since Schiavo's feeding tube was disconnected were parried by U.S. District Court Judge James Whittemore on Tuesday, who ruled Schiavo had not been denied due process in state courts.

The parents, Congress and President Bush were dealt another blow in the middle of the night when the federal court in Atlanta rejected the first appeal of Whittemore's ruling.

In its ruling, the panel acknowledged the "absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo." But it supported the lower federal court in saying an emergency order to restore the feeding could not be issued as the parents had failed to show their overall case would succeed at trial.

Rights activists applauded the panel's decision.



The Schindlers were also seeking help from Florida lawmakers, who in 2003 passed a special law allowing Gov. Jeb Bush, President Bush's brother, to intervene when Schiavo's feeding tube was previously disconnected.

That law was eventually found to be unconstitutional and state senators last week rejected a new law, apparently under pressure from elderly Florida constituents opposed to government interference in their "end-of-life" decisions.

The Senate was holding a session Wednesday afternoon at which a renewed attempt to pass legislation might occur.

Jeb Bush said he would "continue to call on the Florida Legislature to pass legislation to honor patients' decisions about end of life care, protect all vulnerable Floridians, and spare Terri's life."

Mary Schindler has repeatedly appealed to state senators for help in recent days and did so again on Wednesday.

"Please stop the cruelty, stop the insanity. Let my daughter live," she said outside the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, where her daughter is being cared for.

(Additional reporting by Michael Peltier in Tallahassee)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20050323/pl_nm/rights_schiavo_dc_103

[Rascal]

What was he charged with?

I think that was the point of him asking what's the statute of limitations for criminal cases in Florida. He hasn't been charged, but if it was allowed in the statute of limitations I would expect some to be filed. Either that or a civil case against him by her parents.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I think that was the point of him asking what's the statute of limitations for criminal cases in Florida. He hasn't been charged, but if it was allowed in the statute of limitations I would expect some to be filed. Either that or a civil case against him by her parents.
A civil case? Care to explain that?

[Rascal]

OJ got sued by Nicole's parents (not sure as to how they won but they did) so I'm sure if her parents find a good enough lawyer they could sue Michael.

[bendog]

on what theory? OJ didn't have a court order.

Although I did like Chris Rock's take ....

[Rascal]

on what theory? OJ didn't have a court order.

Although I did like Chris Rock's take ....

I'm just speculating that's all.

They could sue him for his treatment of her earlier or lord knows what.

If he gets any money at all because of this they will be suing him guaranteed..if no money then they may not.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

OJ got sued by Nicole's parents (not sure as to how they won but they did) so I'm sure if her parents find a good enough lawyer they could sue Michael.

I don't see how. This was a civil case. Haven't they lost their suit in 12 different courts so far?

[Taco John]

If I was the Schaivo's I'd have Michael in court for the rest of his life...

[Mtbrncofn]

If I was the Schaivo's I'd have Michael in court for the rest of his life...


Yep, I think I would feel the same.

[alkemical]

I love how everyday i'm reminded "an individual is smart, but people are stupid" -

No one here knows any actual fact, all conjecture and yet we pass judgement like we are arrogant enough to think we have the wisdom of solomon.

[Spider]

I love how everyday i'm reminded "an individual is smart, but people are stupid" -

No one here knows any actual fact, all conjecture and yet we pass judgement like we are arrogant enough to think we have the wisdom of solomon.
;D Rep ..........good post

[Taco John]

It doesn't take much wisdom to see that Terry isn't getting any sort of due process. Some guy, seven years after her collapse, "remembers" that she wanted to die if in this condition? Weak.

If she dies, so will any chance of a Democrat ever getting my vote for the forseeable future.

[TheDave]

Looks like the dog and pony show worked on someone

[Spider]

It doesn't take much wisdom to see that Terry isn't getting any sort of due process. Some guy, seven years after her collapse, "remembers" that she wanted to die if in this condition? Weak.

If she dies, so will any chance of a Democrat ever getting my vote for the forseeable future.
LOL .. you cant be serious ...... Here is a clue TJ , the Parents have lost court case , after court case , for about 8 years now , Perhaps , there is alot more going on then you know ...... But if you want to be a drama queen be my guest .....

[Spider]

Looks like the dog and pony show worked on someone
Big time ...... get the Panties in a wad ,I wish People got their Panties in a wad over the infant terminated in houston this week .Sun Hudson ..... there is somthing to sink your teeth into

[Taco John]

No dog and pony show about it. I'm not fooled into thinking this thing is about the freedom to die. This is a legal issue about due process. You can't ethically execute someones "wishes" for death on hearsay. This woman is getting steamrolled.

If the democrats are stupid enough to think this argument is about the right to die, then they are too stupid to receieve my vote.

I will be monitoring my representatives' performance in this case when I go to the ballot box. I want someone who values due process as much as I do representing me...

[Spider]

No dog and pony show about it. I'm not fooled into thinking this thing is about the freedom to die. This is a legal issue about due process. You can't ethically execute someones "wishes" for death on hearsay. This woman is getting steamrolled.
8 years of losing court case after court case is getting steamrolled ???

If the democrats are stupid enough to think this argument is about the right to die, then they are too stupid to receieve my vote.
LOL .... First you claim that she hasnt had due Process , then you claim Democrats are stupid Hilarious!

[Taco John]

Some of them are.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

It doesn't take much wisdom to see that Terry isn't getting any sort of due process. Some guy, seven years after her collapse, "remembers" that she wanted to die if in this condition? Weak.

If she dies, so will any chance of a Democrat ever getting my vote for the forseeable future.

Isn't getting due process? You have to be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as far as blaming democrats for this your ignorance is unsurpassed!

Did you happen to read the part about the republicans playing this like a fiddle to try a secure more votes from their base?

[Spider]

Some of them are.
LOL . do you even know how Many Judges have ruled on this Case ? .....

[Spider]

Isn't getting due process? You have to be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as far as blaming democrats for this your ignorance is unsurpassed!

Did you happen to read the part about the republicans playing this like a fiddle to try a secure more votes from their base?
Hilarious! .. TJ left me shaking my head on this one .....

[Taco John]

Isn't getting due process? You have to be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as far as blaming democrats for this your ignorance is unsurpassed!

Did you happen to read the part about the republicans playing this like a fiddle to try a secure more votes from their base?



I'm not the republicans base, but it's working on me. I've never been more disgusted with the Democrats ever. They don't seem to understand this issue at all. The best argument I've heard from a Democrat on this is "I wouldn't want to be in that condition." As if that's the issue. It's not about the right to die. It's about the right to LIE.

And that's what I believe Michael Schiavo is doing. Prove that wrong. You can't. There is no way to prove whether he is lying or telling the truth. Which is the whole point here. She isn't getting due process. HER will isn't being executed. Her husband's is.

[alkemical]

Hey TJ, that's fine if you think this is the democrats fault.

Glenn Beck will make you feel better TJ - I mean - no one is playing on this story for ratings - everyone is actually much more concerened with her /sarcasm

[Taco John]

Hilarious! .. TJ left me shaking my head on this one .....



Which is exactly why I won't be voting Democrat. You apparently just don't get it. Neither do my local representatives.

[Taco John]

Hey TJ, that's fine if you think this is the democrats fault.

Glenn Beck will make you feel better TJ - I mean - no one is playing on this story for ratings - everyone is actually much more concerened with her /sarcasm



I don't think it's the Democrats *fault*, per se. It's the stuff that's coming out of their mouths that is turning me off. I'm finding that my values are very different. I hold life and liberty very dear. I don't think that either should be forfeit on hearsay, even if I'm laid up.

Plug me in and keep me plugged in... and pray... if it ever happens to me.

[TheDave]

HER will isn't being executed. Her husband's is.

that's because she doesn't have a brain... without one of those you can't have any "Will"

[Spider]

Which is exactly why I won't be voting Democrat. You apparently just don't get it. Neither do my local representatives.
LOL . I dont know TJ , first you claim that no one can Prove if Michael is lying or not . fine , But then in the Same Post you Claim that Terrys will isnt getting Due Process , so TJ if you cant prove that Michale is Lying or not , then How in the hell do you know if her will is getting Due Process or not ?
Hilarious! then add in over 16 Judges have ruled on this ..... I dont mean to crack back on you so hard , but man , you came up with some off the wall crap in this one

[alkemical]

I don't think it's the Democrats *fault*, per se. It's the stuff that's coming out of their mouths that is turning me off. I'm finding that my values are very different. I hold life and liberty very dear. I don't think that either should be forfeit on hearsay, even if I'm laid up.

Plug me in and keep me plugged in... and pray... if it ever happens to me.

TJ,

then you better look at what the R's are doing when they control the government - Lets see - they start wars on bad evidence (so they lie), they want to go against their big selling point - states rights - should i continue -

If you want life and liberty, the two major parties won't fit the bill -

I stopped voting for both major parties a few years ago -

[Hotrod]

Which is exactly why I won't be voting Democrat. You apparently just don't get it. Neither do my local representatives.

That was music to my ears ;D Stay away from the democrats they are evil. Welcome to the good side TJ :)

[MadCity]

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Terri Schiavo's parents saw their options vanish one by one Wednesday as a federal appeals court refused to re-insert her feeding tube and the Florida Legislature decided not to intervene in the epic struggle. Refusing to give up, Gov. Jeb Bush sought court permission to take custody of Schiavo.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_69

[Hotrod]

LOL . I dont know TJ , first you claim that no one can Prove if Michael is lying or not . fine , But then in the Same Post you Claim that Terrys will isnt getting Due Process , so TJ if you cant prove that Michale is Lying or not , then How in the hell do you know if her will is getting Due Process or not ?
Hilarious! then add in over 16 Judges have ruled on this ..... I dont mean to crack back on you so hard , but man , you came up with some off the wall crap in this one

LOL you just stay out of this lefty ;D

[TheDave]

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Terri Schiavo's parents saw their options vanish one by one Wednesday as a federal appeals court refused to re-insert her feeding tube and the Florida Legislature decided not to intervene in the epic struggle. Refusing to give up, Gov. Jeb Bush sought court permission to take custody of Schiavo.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_69

The dog and pony show continues...why not, it seems to be working.

[Spider]

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Terri Schiavo's parents saw their options vanish one by one Wednesday as a federal appeals court refused to re-insert her feeding tube and the Florida Legislature decided not to intervene in the epic struggle. Refusing to give up, Gov. Jeb Bush sought court permission to take custody of Schiavo.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050323/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_69
Yet another court ...... But Sun Hudson case still goes unnoticed .....

[Spider]

LOL you just stay out of this lefty ;D
;D ......

[Taco John]

LOL . I dont know TJ , first you claim that no one can Prove if Michael is lying or not . fine , But then in the Same Post you Claim that Terrys will isnt getting Due Process , so TJ if you cant prove that Michale is Lying or not , then How in the hell do you know if her will is getting Due Process or not ?
Hilarious! then add in over 16 Judges have ruled on this ..... I dont mean to crack back on you so hard , but man , you came up with some off the wall crap in this one



Like I said. It's clear that you don't get it.

Terri left no will. The only thing they are killing this woman on is the word of her husband, who "remembered" that she wanted to die SEVEN years after the event... oh, and coincidentally, right before he moved in with his new girlfriend.

Let me ask you this. What if he did it? What if he's responsible, and he wants her to die because he knows all the secrets go with her? I'm not saying he *did* do it. I'm asking "what if?" Should he be able to pull the plug?

The fact is, we don't know what her will was, and thus, the law should err on the side of life. That's the bottom line for me, and why I simply think you just don't get it. Doesn't mean you're stupid. Just means we have very different values. I value life and liberty. Both are being trampled for Terri right now.

[TheDave]

Yet another court ...... But Sun Hudson case still goes unnoticed .....

Sun Hudson-

Sun Hudson was born 6 months ago with an incurable condition that would require a ventilator and intensive custodial care all his life, which would not be long, even with that care.

His legal guardian was his mother, who received no prenatal care during her pregnancy. She did not want his breathing tube removed. She said that he just needed more time to get energy from his father, the sun. No man claimed paternity. Sun's mother does not have money.

The state of Texas chose not to appoint a guardian ad litem for Sun. Had they done so, they would have had to assume financial responsibility for him. The other day, they removed his breathing tube against his mother's wishes.

My question: If Terry Schiavo, her husband, and her parents were all poor, no court money, no insurance or insurance running out, what would be the reaction of the various political and religious factions? Would we even know Terri's name?

You may need to google Sun Hudson, but just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that Sun's mother was an affluent woman, with property, and she had gotten pre-natal care but the doctors failed to diagnose Sun's condition, she sued, and won a big settlement. what would be the reaction of the various political and religious factions?

http://meteor-blades.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/19/7441/23269

[Taco John]

The burden of proof should be falling on Michael Schaivo right now... Not her parents.

Michael should have to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that she preferred death.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm not the republicans base, but it's working on me. I've never been more disgusted with the Democrats ever. They don't seem to understand this issue at all. The best argument I've heard from a Democrat on this is "I wouldn't want to be in that condition." As if that's the issue. It's not about the right to die. It's about the right to LIE.

And that's what I believe Michael Schiavo is doing. Prove that wrong. You can't. There is no way to prove whether he is lying or telling the truth. Which is the whole point here. She isn't getting due process. HER will isn't being executed. Her husband's is.

And it all leads to the justice system making a decision because no one knows for sure what her wishes were except her husband. They have weighed the evidence and testimony from her parents, relatives, friends and her husband.

So what's your definition of due process? Throwing away the American judicial system in favor a one groups views over another? We might as well all arm ourselves and settle it in the streets huh?

Our system of justice is as good or better than any other on the planet.
Would you be alarmed to find out that there are dozens of Terri Schiavo's dying in this manner every week? Are you just now finding out about how we Americans (and most other civilized citizens in the world) are terminated when it is known we are terminally ill or in a PVS?

And what is your response to the republican memo?

[TheDave]

Let me ask you this. What if he did it? What if he's responsible, and he wants her to die because he knows all the secrets go with her?


The "Secrets" have already been liqiufied with her cerebrum... SHE HAS NO BRAIN...why is this so beyond people?

[Taco John]

The "Secrets" have already been liqiufied with her cerebrum... SHE HAS NO BRAIN...why is this so beyond people?



THERE IS NO PROOF SHE WANTED TO DIE IF IN THIS STATE... why is this so beyond people?

[DB-Freak]

The "Secrets" have already been liqiufied with her cerebrum... SHE HAS NO BRAIN...why is this so beyond people?
So whats your stance on this?

To keep life or let it die.

[Spider]

Like I said. It's clear that you don't get it.
Hilarious! , this comming fro ma guy that stated , we cant prove if Michael is lying or not , so therefore Terrys Will isnt getting due Process . talk about a slippery slope argument .... your entire argument is built up on innuendo ... you dont have the first clue if Michael is tellign the truth or not , so your Terry isnt getting Due Process is pure crap .... House of cards ....

Terri left no will. The only thing they are killing this woman on is the word of her husband, who "remembered" that she wanted to die SEVEN years after the event... oh, and coincidentally, right before he moved in with his new girlfriend.
Um TJ they are Killing her cause she hos no Brain left just a stem ...... Think about it ......

Let me ask you this. What if he did it? What if he's responsible, and he wants her to die because he knows all the secrets go with her? I'm not saying he *did* do it. I'm asking "what if?" Should he be able to pull the plug?
More what if , your entire argument is what if , but I will play along .... What if he is responcible ? after 15 years somthing would have came to light by now , if not , then he is damn good ..... In other words I dont buy the smear campaign .......

The fact is, we don't know what her will was, and thus,
Then i have to ask for the 3 rd time , how in the hell do you know Terrys will isnt getting Due Process , What do you know that 16 + Judges dont know TJ ?


the law should err on the side of life. That's the bottom line for me, and why I simply think you just don't get it. Doesn't mean you're stupid. Just means we have very different values. I value life.
Hilarious! ..... Tell you what , Email Wanda Hudson , and tell her all about how you agree with Bush on the err on the side of Life ( that should be hilarious! )

[Taco John]

Of course I noticed that nobody bothered to answer my simple question.