New Bankruptcy Regulations on the way...

[orangenblue2]

Haven't heard anyone post anything about this. The US Senate last week voted to change the rules concerning bankruptcy laws. Anyone have any thoughts? ???

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I have not paid any attention to the details of the plan, however, the bankruptcy laws have been severely abused. A good example is Alex Spanos (San Diego Cahrgers). He built his wealth by starting large construction projects and just before completion he would divert the funds, declare bankruptcy and stiff all of his sub contractors. A local example is the Aurora Mall.

[W*GS]

Now pay it back
Mar 10th 2005 | WASHINGTON, DC
From The Economist print edition

At last, Congress gets tough on debtors

Last year, nearly 1.6m Americans filed for relief from their creditors. That number has almost doubled in the past decade. Under current law, people get their debts wiped away by the mere act of filing under Chapter 7 of the bankruptcy code. But a new law, the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act, makes that much harder. It imposes a means test that would force people who earn more than their state's median income into Chapter 13 of the code, which requires debtors to submit to a repayment plan. It would also make poorer debtors jump through many more hoops to get relief.

As The Economist went to press, the bill looked likely to pass the Senate. The Republicans had fended off nearly every Democratic bid to soften it. They also voted down an attempt by Chuck Schumer, the senior senator from New York, to tack on a provision blocking violent protesters, including those protesting outside abortion clinics, from filing for bankruptcy in order to avoid fines. (This amendment had sunk the bill in previous years, when pro-life House Republicans revolted.) Now the bill is in a shape both the House leadership and George Bush say they will accept. But is it a sensible reform?

America's 30-year-old bankruptcy law—as Democrats and consumers' groups point out—is rooted in the idea of a “fresh start” for honest debtors who have had a spot of bad luck—illness, divorce, a lost job. But credit-card issuers and banks have long been pushing for a change. The stigma of bankruptcy, they argue, has eroded, and Chapter 7 is too often used as a financial planning tool. Meanwhile, honest borrowers are forced to pay a “bankruptcy tax” in the form of higher interest rates and credit-card penalties.

Is the system really abused? In fact, evidence suggests that the boom in personal bankruptcies has more to do with the piling on of consumer debt than with debtors playing the system. In the 1990s, revolving debt (mostly credit-card debt), grew by as much as 12% a year; from 1980 to 2004, it increased nearly 15 times. And the non-partisan American Bankruptcy Institute puts the number of bankruptcy filers who could afford to pay a good chunk of their debts at 3.6%: still a big number, but not nearly as much as the 10% or more claimed by creditor groups.

In any case, the bill's means test (an average of the debtor's past six months of income) should catch those who can clearly pay up. But opponents fear that the test, which they think too harsh and arbitrary, will drag those who rightly belong in Chapter 7 unfairly into court.

More troubling is the part of the legislation that makes it harder for poorer debtors, not likely to be the abusers of the system, to file for bankruptcy. Some 84% of all filers are too poor to qualify for the new law's means test. But they will still be put through a great deal of rigmarole to get relief. For example, all debtors will have to get credit counselling before they file—a costly process, and one which does little to steer people out of bankruptcy. The bill also requires people to produce all sorts of paperwork, from payroll stubs to tax returns. Those who have not kept strict records will have to give up or pay for a lawyer to plead their case in court.

Other quirks of the legislation make one wonder why credit-industry groups are so keen on it. One loophole allows rich debtors to go on shielding assets in special trust accounts that are legal in a few states. And debtors' fancy homes in Texas and Florida will still be off-limits to creditors. The bill's backers say that fear of trampling on states' rights stopped them closing such loopholes. But it smells rather pervasively like special treatment for the rich.

Copyright © 2005 The Economist Newspaper and The Economist Group. All rights reserved.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Bad law for the main reason that 1/2 of all bankrupticies are because of medical bills. Republicans pressured by credit card corporations and banks drug along enough democrats to pass it. Banks and credit card corporations are one of the main reasons for emptying this country of savings issuing cards to anyone that signs on the dooted line.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Another victory in Bush's ongoing class war against working and middle class Americans - gift wrapped with a nice little bow for his pals/big donors, i.e., the credit card companies.

What's next? The return of debtors prisons?

[watermock]

Credit Card companies are out of control.

It started when Volker pushed rates to 21percent and companies were unable to even lend unsecured credit because of Usury laws. Eventually, they found a loophole, move to states like South Dakota, Nevada and Vermont that didn't have them.

These companies reguliarly don't account for holidays, weekends or other "bankers hours" when taking payments. A day late means a dollar short no longer. Two late payments, even by hours or a calculation mistake as simple as sending in 230.00 when the bill was 230.01 can now assess a late charge of a typical 39.00's, but worse, an arbitrary increase in the rate from an advertised introductory rate, or even their "fixed rate" for even Platinum users, usually prime plus 6 percent, or right now, around 11.5. That isn't a horrible rate, but miss a payment, and even if your credit is stellar and you miss a payment, they will raise the rate, sometimes to an astounding 29.99 percent.

This is another example where deregulation works short term, when simplifying regulations were the true answer. We have seen this in all sectors, including Airlines, Banks, especially the unsecured sector, and telecom and cable services, a good example is Murdoch, who has managed to control both cable AND broadcast mediums, always pushing towards sattelite, offering such things as NFL Game Day, unavailable to even digital cable for no apparent reason.

This bill was rushed thru without proper consensus, and it's another example of the GOP bullying its way, frankly, because it finally can avoid countless idiotic chicken in the sand views from the left. It's unhealthy as hell. Democrats have totally withdrawn into the no party, the blame party, and seem to enjoy any failure whatsoever, than attempt to reach the common good.

It's just like the Texan who was thawed out from the 20th Century told Capt. Kirk.

"Hell, it's the same old dance, just a different song..."

[watermock]

Banks credit card operation are BY FAR their most profitable operations, some getting an astounding 80% of their profits from their unsecured credit operations. This largely is because people don't really see it coming untill they miss a payment.

Not only this, but one bad score on one card can promt any other unsecured creditor to reevaluate it's own account, citing the late payment. So for example, your late on one card, but fine on another, it can also raise the rate, and so on and so on.

The whole thing needs a new usury law TIED TO THE PRIME RATE to stop the billion, soon to be in the trillion ripoffs. Certainly Prime plus 19% isn't really a lone, it smells more like "points" on a loan in Vegas.

[W*GS]

Banks and credit card corporations are one of the main reasons for emptying this country of savings issuing cards to anyone that signs on the dooted line.

Who's forcing anyone to get a credit card?

Just like everyone else, we get dozens of offers - all end up in the recycle bin.

If you've got massive credit card debt, it's no-one's fault but your own. Period.

But, as BB and LABF are typical liberals, they blame anyone else but the cardholder.

[TheDave]

Banks credit card operation are BY FAR their most profitable operations, some getting an astounding 80% of their profits from their unsecured credit operations. This largely is because people don't really see it coming untill they miss a payment.

Not only this, but one bad score on one card can promt any other unsecured creditor to reevaluate it's own account, citing the late payment. So for example, your late on one card, but fine on another, it can also raise the rate, and so on and so on.

The whole thing needs a new usury law TIED TO THE PRIME RATE to stop the billion, soon to be in the trillion ripoffs. Certainly Prime plus 19% isn't really a lone, it smells more like "points" on a loan in Vegas.

Excellent post... Having worked for a major east coast bank during my mortgage days, i got to see 1st hand how the credit card scam works. In addition to what mock says all of their "credit limits" are tied to your FICO scores. I can't tell you how many times i saw 20 year olds with $30,000 credit limits. Everyone over that age, remember how irresponsible you were back then. Giving a 20 year old $30,000 in "Free" money is irresponsible by the card issuer, and they need to be held responsible to some degree. By no means am i absolving debtors of blame, because i do agree that the current laws are far to lax, but from what i have seen of the new law it is definately being funded and pushed by the Banks.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Who's forcing anyone to get a credit card?

Just like everyone else, we get dozens of offers - all end up in the recycle bin.

If you've got massive credit card debt, it's no-one's fault but your own. Period.

But, as BB and LABF are typical liberals, they blame anyone else but the cardholder.
These companies send these cards to anyone, mostly young kids and people who are in debt. They disguise the offers and mask the risks in print too small to read for some people. They are scum of the earth who's only objective is to rip people off. Of course, I'd expect nothing more from you than to defend these
ripoff artists.

[W*GS]

Giving a 20 year old $30,000 in "Free" money is irresponsible by the card issuer, and they need to be held responsible to some degree.

Why? 20-year-olds are legal adults (with the exception of purchasing booze) - why shouldn't they have access to credit?

You're correct to have quotes around the "Free", since it's not a gift, it's a loan. If a 20-year-old doesn't understand that, they need some financial education but quick.

The sole responsibility for credit card misuse lies with the holder. No-one else.

[W*GS]

These companies send these cards to anyone, mostly young kids and people who are in debt. They disguise the offers and mask the risks in print too small to read for some people. They are scum of the earth who's only objective is to rip people off. Of course, I'd expect nothing more from you than to defend these ripoff artists.

Who's forcing anyone to accept these credit-card offers? The last time you accepted an offer, was there someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to do so?

Keep up the stereotypical liberal behavior, BB. You've gone from blaming credit-card issuers to blaming individuals for being too stupid to refuse the offers.

[TheDave]

Why? 20-year-olds are legal adults (with the exception of purchasing booze) - why shouldn't they have access to credit?

You're correct to have quotes around the "Free", since it's not a gift, it's a loan. If a 20-year-old doesn't understand that, they need some financial education but quick.

The sole responsibility for credit card misuse lies with the holder. No-one else.


God it must be nice to be perfect...

Giving a 20 year old access to that kind of money is a bad business decision... As that, a company should be partially held responsible for thier bad decision...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Who's forcing anyone to accept these credit-card offers? The last time you accepted an offer, was there someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to do so?

Keep up the stereotypical liberal behavior, BB. You've gone from blaming credit-card issuers to blaming individuals for being too stupid to refuse the offers.
Bushie response, f*ck em if they don't know or understand. You are now officially a <a href="http://www.bradfriedman.com/BradBlog/Images/BushTool.jpg">Bush tool</a>.

[W*GS]

God it must be nice to be perfect...

A lesson in financial wisdom is not a bad thing.

Giving a 20 year old access to that kind of money is a bad business decision... As that, a company should be partially held responsible for thier bad decision...

They already are - if a 20-year-old gets in deep credit card debt, then the credit-card companies may get only a portion back of what they lent to her. That's market discipline.

And in any case, it's still 100% the 20-year-old's fault.

[W*GS]

Bushie response, f*ck em if they don't know or understand.

Would you sign a contract that you didn't know anything about or understand?

What's so difficult about pitching credit card offers in the trash? Just how infantile do you think others are?

[TheDave]

A lesson in financial wisdom is not a bad thing.



They already are - if a 20-year-old gets in deep credit card debt, then the credit-card companies may get only a portion back of what they lent to her. That's market discipline.

And in any case, it's still 100% the 20-year-old's fault.


So in your mind we should get rid of all predatory lending laws...

[W*GS]

So in your mind we should get rid of all predatory lending laws...

In an ideal world, yes.

But given the innumeracy of the typical American, and their inability to control their spending, I suppose we need to keep protecting people from themselves.

[TheDave]

In an ideal world, yes.

But given the innumeracy of the typical American, and their inability to control their spending, I suppose we need to keep protecting people from themselves.

You don't have any idea what you are talking about. In a completely "Free" mortgage industry i could get 95% of the population to sign $hit that would make me a millionaire over night, and yes that 95% probably includes you.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

In an ideal world, yes.

But given the innumeracy of the typical American, and their inability to control their spending, I suppose we need to keep protecting people from themselves.You've just completely contradicted all of your posts in this thread.

[Spider]

I had 3 Credit Cards , Visa , Discover , American Express . Reason I had them I was told the way of the future is Credit , you will need Credit , so said ok , I used the 3 Cards , after saw My bill , the total Bill and the Min payment I could make , I saw that the Credit card companies were charging me 12% , and then they would tack that Money on any unpaid balaence , then they also Said I could use one of the cards to pay off the others , and just have the one ...... I said screw it , Paid em off havent had a card since , I decided that if I dont have the money for somthing , then i cant afford it including my Vehicles ..... But I do feel sorry for People in Credit Card Debt , Not everyone makes a thousand + $$ a week like I did , so the temptation to use a card , can be overwhelming .......

[W*GS]

In a completely "Free" mortgage industry i could get 95% of the population to sign $hit that would make me a millionaire over night, and yes that 95% probably includes you.

I don't think so.

[W*GS]

You've just completely contradicted all of your posts in this thread.

Note my "ideal world" comment.

The sole blame for household debt, whether from credit cards, mortgages, or car payments, goes to the person who assumed the debt. Now, there are exceptions (spouses who were unaware of the problem but are legally held responsible) but for the most part, if Joe American can't afford his $2000/m onth mortage, his $500/month payments on his SUV, and has $15000 in credit card debt (partly because he just had to have a plasma TV!), Joe American is to blame. Period.

[W*GS]

I had 3 Credit Cards , Visa , Discover , American Express . Reason I had them I was told the way of the future is Credit , you will need Credit , so said ok , I used the 3 Cards , after saw My bill , the total Bill and the Min payment I could make , I saw that the Credit card companies were charging me 12% , and then they would tack that Money on any unpaid balaence , then they also Said I could use one of the cards to pay off the others , and just have the one ...... I said screw it , Paid em off havent had a card since , I decided that if I dont have the money for somthing , then i cant afford it including my Vehicles ..... But I do feel sorry for People in Credit Card Debt , Not everyone makes a thousand + $$ a week like I did , so the temptation to use a card , can be overwhelming .......

You've got the right idea.

Resist the temptation. Have self-discipline.

We have 3 cards - and that's it. We pay off the balance in full every month - and we never ever put more on any of them than we can afford to pay off. Do we deny ourselves goodies? You bet - but most of the stuff people buy they don't need, really.

[Spider]

You've got the right idea.

Resist the temptation. Have self-discipline.

We have 3 cards - and that's it. We pay off the balance in full every month - and we never ever put more on any of them than we can afford to pay off. Do we deny ourselves goodies? You bet - but most of the stuff people buy they don't need, really.
Thats true , I do see alot of People rewarding themselfs , with goodies , when they cant afford it , but you have to see the Daves point of view on this , 2 income family working hard , they have 3 Kids , and the Kids need Braces , Clothes , shoes , it is tempting .......to buy a new dinnette set , or a high tech TV ...... I was just lucky enough to Land in a proffession at the right time ..... If I had a 9-5 Job with no shot at O.T. no telling what I would have done .....

[W*GS]

but you have to see the Daves point of view on this , 2 income family working hard , they have 3 Kids , and the Kids need Braces , Clothes , shoes , it is tempting .......to buy a new dinnette set , or a high tech TV ...... I was just lucky enough to Land in a proffession at the right time ..... If I had a 9-5 Job with no shot at O.T. no telling what I would have done .....

I'm supporting my wife and our three kids on my income alone. She had her own company before we had kids, but shuttered it shortly after kid #1. So, our combined income dropped by about half. We have a rather strict budget - no splurging on goodies for ourselves. I noted in another thread the sorts of things we do to keep our finances in order. It takes discipline, no doubt about it - and I do occassionally regret not being able to get some new high-tech toy or gadget.

But that's what it takes.

[Spider]

I'm supporting my wife and our three kids on my income alone. She had her own company before we had kids, but shuttered it shortly after kid #1. So, our combined income dropped by about half. We have a rather strict budget - no splurging on goodies for ourselves. I noted in another thread the sorts of things we do to keep our finances in order. It takes discipline, no doubt about it - and I do occassionally regret not being able to get some new high-tech toy or gadget.

But that's what it takes.
I am sure you get paid more then 6.50 an hour also ....... it is one thing to have income to help with the things you need such as Utilities , food , Shelter , Clothes , shoes , then to struggle to meet these Needs , then the transmission goes out of their car , there is a 1200 $ smack , they need their car , so they put the repair bill on the credit card , Tires , all kinds of maitence on their car .....
and you being a Parent surley understand that 6.50 an hour doesnt get it done raising Kids , then you have the People gettting Laid off and having to find work that didnt pay anywhere , that they was getting ... My point is there is alot of things that factor into Credit card debt ....... We just cant brush it off as being being immature , or not responcible ......

[Mile High Shack]

I am sure you get paid more then 6.50 an hour also ....... it is one thing to have income to help with the things you need such as Utilities , food , Shelter , Clothes , shoes , then to struggle to meet these Needs , then the transmission goes out of their car , there is a 1200 $ smack , they need their car , so they put the repair bill on the credit card , Tires , all kinds of maitence on their car .....
and you being a Parent surley understand that 6.50 an hour doesnt get it done raising Kids , then you have the People gettting Laid off and having to find work that didnt pay anywhere , that they was getting ... My point is there is alot of things that factor into Credit card debt ....... We just cant brush it off as being being immature , or not responcible ......
That’s what got me in trouble, we bought a lemon (from my dad no less) and my wife and I paid about 5K in car repairs on the damn thing over the course of 2 years…I should’ve just…anyway, suffice it to say damn thing

[Spider]

That’s what got me in trouble, we bought a lemon (from my dad no less) and my wife and I paid about 5K in car repairs on the damn thing over the course of 2 years…I should’ve just…anyway, suffice it to say damn thing
Thats my point Bro , you need your car , and car repair Bills can be like Medical Bills you wasnt acting as if you had Free Money , spending willy nilly on mass quanities of useless Junk , you Had to repair your vehicle for transportation so you can work to feed your family ..... Sorry , I dont see how the Republicans feel you should be punished , Pay back a certian amount every month , and a 12% on the total amount ( not the unpaid amount) would be fair ......

[TheDave]

That’s what got me in trouble, we bought a lemon (from my dad no less) and my wife and I paid about 5K in car repairs on the damn thing over the course of 2 years…I should’ve just…anyway, suffice it to say damn thing

Think of it this way, one less father's day card you need to buy.

With the price of F**KING cards you should break even within the decade.

[bronco_diesel]

That’s what got me in trouble, we bought a lemon (from my dad no less) and my wife and I paid about 5K in car repairs on the damn thing over the course of 2 years…I should’ve just…anyway, suffice it to say damn thing

you know this got me into trouble too. but where i get frustrated is with myself. i should have planned better - i should have set aside a stash for this very thing. people don't plan and they get way in over their heads. i feel sorry for the dude who makes 6.50 an hour - but there are ways for him to improve...if they want a better life, make it happen...they shouldn't count on the gov't or anyone else to help them out or bail them out.

you make your bed...i made mine and i got myself out - i have learned a valuable lesson - planning is critical....being thrifty is smart...and it's only my fault if something bites me in the arse.

[W*GS]

I am sure you get paid more then 6.50 an hour also .......

True, but I'm salaried - no OT so if it takes me 60 hrs to get my work done, so be it. And I also worked my ass off all through school and got into college and worked my ass off then too, to get me the job I have. I've paid plenty to get where I am - I've never expected anyone to give me a damned thing.

it is one thing to have income to help with the things you need such as Utilities , food , Shelter , Clothes , shoes , then to struggle to meet these Needs , then the transmission goes out of their car , there is a 1200 $ smack , they need their car , so they put the repair bill on the credit card , Tires , all kinds of maitence on their car .....

That's why one has an emergency fund that's continually paid into, as well as an untouchable savings program.

and you being a Parent surley understand that 6.50 an hour doesnt get it done raising Kids

Indeed. So get a better-paying job - educate and train to get that job.

then you have the People gettting Laid off and having to find work that didnt pay anywhere , that they was getting ... My point is there is alot of things that factor into Credit card debt ....... We just cant brush it off as being being immature , or not responcible ......

Most of the time, credit card debt that people cannot handle is due entirely to their own bad choices. It's relatively rare that people get themselves into a financial bind through no fault of their own.

Quite honestly, I'm tired of stories of people who claim to be struggling to make ends meet, living from paycheck to paycheck, but whose kids have all the latest PS2 games (including a new console); who get the most expensive digital cable package piped into their wall-mount plasma screen, and who eat out 5x/week, and drive a 2-year-old SUV that they got after they traded in their old 4-year-old SUV with thousands left to pay on it.

Way too many people claim to be in financial trouble but in fact they have financial discipline trouble.

Don't live beyond your means. Period. If it means you don't have a new car every couple of years, tough. If it means your kids can't show off their $150 sneakers in school - they'll live. If it means cutting coupons and making meals at home instead of eating out regularly - so be it. If it means not keeping up with the Joneses - so what?

[W*GS]

you know this got me into trouble too. but where i get frustrated is with myself. i should have planned better - i should have set aside a stash for this very thing. people don't plan and they get way in over their heads. i feel sorry for the dude who makes 6.50 an hour - but there are ways for him to improve...if they want a better life, make it happen...they shouldn't count on the gov't or anyone else to help them out or bail them out.

you make your bed...i made mine and i got myself out - i have learned a valuable lesson - planning is critical....being thrifty is smart...and it's only my fault if something bites me in the arse.

FINALLY. Someone who takes responsibility for their own life and doesn't blame everyone and everything else under the sun for their troubles.

Thanks!

[Spider]

True, but I'm salaried - no OT so if it takes me 60 hrs to get my work done, so be it.
;D I got Paid by the mile , so it was a matter of how many Miles I could get in a week , needless to say a run the West coast was a Killer .....



That's why one has an emergency fund that's continually paid into, as well as an untouchable savings program.
Exactly , I suggest 10% of your Pay a week , but lets face it alot of Couples starting out cant afford that ......



Indeed. So get a better-paying job - educate and train to get that job.
That would be nice , but bills still have to be paid .... who will pay them while you are in School ?



Most of the time, credit card debt that people cannot handle is due entirely to their own bad choices. It's relatively rare that people get themselves into a financial bind through no fault of their own.
a matter of debate .... but you have a point .......

Quite honestly, I'm tired of stories of people who claim to be struggling to make ends meet, living from paycheck to paycheck, but whose kids have all the latest PS2 games (including a new console); who get the most expensive digital cable package piped into their wall-mount plasma screen, and who eat out 5x/week, and drive a 2-year-old SUV that they got after they traded in their old 4-year-old SUV with thousands left to pay on it. I dont know where you live , but I have yet to meet someone that has done the things you said here , I am not saying it doesnt happen , just that most People I know are in Debt are cause of Medical Bills and or Car breaking down ......

Way too many people claim to be in financial trouble but in fact they have financial discipline trouble.
Some .......

Don't live beyond your means. Period. If it means you don't have a new car every couple of years, tough. If it means your kids can't show off their $150 sneakers in school - they'll live. If it means cutting coupons and making meals at home instead of eating out regularly - so be it. If it means not keeping up with the Joneses - so what?
you are preaching to the chior here , But sometimes Shiat happens .....

[orangenblue2]

So far, all of the posts have been very interesting. I've noticed that everyone here has been focused on credit card debt. That's all well and good. However, according to a Harvard University study, it is a fact that just under half of all personal bankruptcies are filed due to "major medical" bills that people are unable to pay. When you add in child birth and death of a spouse bills, "major medical" bankruptcies account for over half of all. The most telling statistic is that 75% of these people who filed had health insurance. Insurance wasn't enough or they lost their jobs due to their illness and subsequently lost all insurance benefits. WTF? These are people who should be made to suffer more? :kiddingme I can understand the Republicans voting for this (part of the "I got mine, screw everyone else" mentality), but 19 Democrats voted for this bill as well. Makes me want to kick them out of the party. Numerous ammendments were offered (mostly by W*GS's favorite Senator, Ted Kennedy) and Sen. Russ Feingold, to make this bill a tad easier on America's less-fortunate, but to no avail. The Senate decided it was best to line the credit card company's pockets even further. Makes me proud to be an American...

The credit card industry pushed very hard for this bill and I really don't know why. That industry is legally charging up to 34% interest on any outstanding balances. That is just absurd. Many well-connected loan sharks and overwrought bookies would kill to make that gravy. Speaking of gravy, in 2004 the credit card industry raked in $24 billion (thats a b ) in fees alone. When is enough...enough? ??? Record profits for the industry, yet they will make it tougher for the little guy, and our Congress marches in lockstep with them. What a country...

I'm not condoning any abuse that we all know happens in the system. People who rack up all sorts of debt with no intention of ever paying it back should not be given a free pass with bankruptcy. This group would include paupers with ridiculous credit card limits (and no way of paying it back) as well as multi-millionaires with all manner of assets that they get to shield from their creditors during a bankruptcy. The gist of my angst is directed at our elected leaders and ordinary citizens (like W*GS and bronco_diesel) who have nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't have it as easy as they do. Remember this...most of America is just one unforeseen accident, illness, or tragedy away from filing for relief from their creditors. A little compassion is what is needed, not a boot to the ribs... :peace:

[W*GS]

The gist of my angst is directed at our elected leaders and ordinary citizens (like W*GS and bronco_diesel) who have nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't have it as easy as they do.

"Easy"? I work my effing ass off, and have for years. The folks who mooch off the system are the ones who have it easy.

There's no magic number of gross income such that above it, someone's life is "easy". There are folks who are supporting a family on $20K a year who are in far better financial shape than folks living alone who gross $200K a year.

One's financial condition depends far more on the discipline and planning that one undertakes (or doesn't) than it does on sheer dollars rolling in.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Of course, I'd expect nothing more from you [W*GS] than to defend these ripoff artists.

Has he ever done otherwise?

Perhaps he believes that if he smooches their collective ass long and hard enough, they'll make him some sort of "Honorary Kleptocrat."

You are now officially a Bush tool.

It's official only now? ;)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

FINALLY. Someone who takes responsibility for their own life and doesn't blame everyone and everything else under the sun for their troubles.

Thanks!

It's obvious that, according to W*GS' warped logic, any suggestion that financial predators (and all other varieties of corporate crooks) be held accountable for their actions = "blame everyone and everything else under the sun for [your] troubles."

You indicated that your entire family depended on your income.

What would happen if you were in a bad accident and unable to work - the medical (and other) bills piling up?

Would the resulting financial difficulties be your fault?

According to your logic, the answer is "yes."

BTW, I agree (mark your calendar) with your philosophy of financial prudence and just saying "no" to credit card companies - but if you honestly believe that irresponsibility is the only reason people ever get over their heads in debt, then you just don't live in the real world.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

However, according to a Harvard University study, it is a fact that just under half of all personal bankruptcies are filed due to "major medical" bills that people are unable to pay. When you add in child birth and death of a spouse bills, "major medical" bankruptcies account for over half of all. The most telling statistic is that 75% of these people who filed had health insurance. Insurance wasn't enough or they lost their jobs due to their illness and subsequently lost all insurance benefits. WTF? These are people who should be made to suffer more?

Bingo.

Thanks for the reality check and for the bringing the facts to the discussion.


I can understand the Republicans voting for this (part of the "I got mine, screw everyone else" mentality), but 19 Democrats voted for this bill as well. Makes me want to kick them out of the party.

Me too. These traitors disgust me. If they are trying to drive Dems like me into amesj's ideological camp, then they are definitely doing all the right things.

The gist of my angst is directed at our elected leaders and ordinary citizens (like W*GS and bronco_diesel) who have nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't have it as easy as they do. Remember this...most of America is just one unforeseen accident, illness, or tragedy away from filing for relief from their creditors. A little compassion is what is needed, not a boot to the ribs...

You've hit the proverbial nail on the head once again.

People like W*GS have nothing but utter contempt for those less fortunate than themselves. (See W*GS' description of Social Security as welfare for "geezers.") Is it any wonder these social retards identify so strongly with the Toxic Texan?

[bronco_diesel]

The gist of my angst is directed at our elected leaders and ordinary citizens (like W*GS and bronco_diesel) who have nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't have it as easy as they do. Remember this...most of America is just one unforeseen accident, illness, or tragedy away from filing for relief from their creditors. A little compassion is what is needed, not a boot to the ribs... :peace:

easy? you haven't even walked a mile in my shoe's let alone met me, so how the hell would you know if it has been easy for me? i don't know your situation and dare i say life has been easy for you until i have at least met you.

no, life has not been easy. i have had to work my ass off for everything i have. i have never been given help by anyone - many people get a nice handout from their parents.

i too had wracked up a nice hospital bill - and you know what? i paid it. this happened at the same damn time i built up a hefty credit card debt too. i could have taken the easy way out - but i felt I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR MY OWN SITUATION! it was harder than hell, but i buckled down and dug myself out. it was not easy - and life has not been easy for me.

yes people have hard lives and there are people out there that have harder lives. i feel sorry for anyone who is struggling and i i try to help where i can.

i don't think i have contempt for people that have it tough - quite the contrary - but i do feel that people are responsible for themselves.

not many people have a plan with their life - take a survey - ask people what their goals/plans are and how they are going to achieve it. no, instead a lot of people fly by the seat of their pants (like i once did) and either learn the hard way or take the easy way out.

i am just asking that people hold themselves more accountable - that's not contempt.

[RaiderH8r]

It's obvious that, according to W*GS' warped logic, any suggestion that financial predators (and all other varieties of corporate crooks) be held accountable for their actions = "blame everyone and everything else under the sun for [your] troubles."

You indicated that your entire family depended on your income.

What would happen if you were in a bad accident and unable to work - the medical (and other) bills piling up?

Would the resulting financial difficulties be your fault?

According to your logic, the answer is "yes."

BTW, I agree (mark your calendar) with your philosophy of financial prudence and just saying "no" to credit card companies - but if you honestly believe that irresponsibility is the only reason people ever get over their heads in debt, then you just don't live in the real world.
AFLAC

[alkemical]

Did you know that this ruling doesn't allow you to claim bankrupt if someone steals your idenity.

[alkemical]

U.S. Senate Supports Identity Theft
Unbelievably, this was sort of lost in the whole bankruptcy debate over the last few weeks... On March 1st, Bank of America announced it had lost personal financial data of more than 1 million customers, meaning a huge amount of people might experience identity theft, including thousands of federal employees, and even potentially Senators' own staff members. Often times, when you get your identity stolen, it destroys your credit and your entire finances. That’s why two days later Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida introduced legislation to exempt debtors from tougher bankruptcy laws if their financial problems were caused by identity theft. But in a Senate apparently owned by credit card companies and banks, it was voted down by a
wide margin.


http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/03/us-senate-supports-identity-theft.html

[orangenblue2]

easy? you haven't even walked a mile in my shoe's let alone met me, so how the hell would you know if it has been easy for me? i don't know your situation and dare i say life has been easy for you until i have at least met you.

no, life has not been easy. i have had to work my ass off for everything i have. i have never been given help by anyone - many people get a nice handout from their parents.

i too had wracked up a nice hospital bill - and you know what? i paid it. this happened at the same damn time i built up a hefty credit card debt too. i could have taken the easy way out - but i felt I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR MY OWN SITUATION! it was harder than hell, but i buckled down and dug myself out. it was not easy - and life has not been easy for me.

yes people have hard lives and there are people out there that have harder lives. i feel sorry for anyone who is struggling and i i try to help where i can.

i don't think i have contempt for people that have it tough - quite the contrary - but i do feel that people are responsible for themselves.

not many people have a plan with their life - take a survey - ask people what their goals/plans are and how they are going to achieve it. no, instead a lot of people fly by the seat of their pants (like i once did) and either learn the hard way or take the easy way out.

i am just asking that people hold themselves more accountable - that's not contempt.


You know what diesel? I haven't walked a mile in your shoes. I really don't need to. I think its great (and admirable) that you've "had to work your ass off for everything that you have". You must be very industrious, but does it ever cross your mind for a second that everyone might not share your superlative work ethic, job opportunities, or specific hospital bill? :kiddingme

Bankruptcy laws have been available and used from the earliest recordings of humankind. A civil (and compassionate) society has always had some deep, dark place for all of those unfortunate members who find themselves without the means to repay their debts. This new law has been written to harass not only those who would "take the easy way out" (as you so eloquently put it), but those less fortunate people who really don't have any other option.

You say you "racked up" a nice hospital bill. That is unfortunate. How much was this bill? Did your bill run into the tens of thousands of dollars? The hundreds of thousands of dollars? If yes, then consider yourself lucky that you were able to pay them back. How does a waitress with no benefits, making less than minimum wage (because she makes tips), pay back 10, 20 ,or 100 thousand dollars? ???

Lastly, you claim that you "don't have contempt for people that have it tough", and you "feel sorry" for anyone who is struggling. Alas, you "try to help" where you can. That's really swell. Where I come from, "help" would be defined as not supporting new bankruptcy regs. that tip the balance to our beloved creditors...Peace

[Bronco_Beerslug]

U.S. Senate Supports Identity Theft
Unbelievably, this was sort of lost in the whole bankruptcy debate over the last few weeks... On March 1st, Bank of America announced it had lost personal financial data of more than 1 million customers, meaning a huge amount of people might experience identity theft, including thousands of federal employees, and even potentially Senators' own staff members. Often times, when you get your identity stolen, it destroys your credit and your entire finances. That’s why two days later Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida introduced legislation to exempt debtors from tougher bankruptcy laws if their financial problems were caused by identity theft. But in a Senate apparently owned by credit card companies and banks, it was voted down by a
wide margin.


http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/03/us-senate-supports-identity-theft.html

I find it funny or I would find it funny if it weren't so incredibly unfair and callous, to the more unfortunate citizens of this country, how some people believe it's their duty to kick them while they're down.
I just purchased another home last summer and during the process was told by my bank, they had potentially lost my personal information. They also told me how sorry they were and would give 2 free years to online credit report access. I was floored, especially when I found out HOW they lost my personal info. One of their employees left his laptop in his (locked they said) vehicle.
I called the main corporate office and told them my attorney would be contacting them and requesting a police report of the theft of my personal info. I was then told that someone would contact later that day about my problem and sure enough I got a call.
I was told that for the next 2 years if there were any problems from their negligence all attorney's fees would be paid up to $40,000.

I'm pretty sure if I wouldn't have called and told them I had an attorney involved nothing more would have been done on their part.

I also believe most people wouldn't have done what I did or have access to an attorney to address company negligence. Taking away another protection for these people under pressure from corporate America is a horrible reflection on our society!

[alkemical]

That's exactly it Beerslug.

Then THEY want to push a nat'l ID on us, when no-one can promise our identity is safe anyway.

They keep herdin' us in our pens

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You know what diesel? I haven't walked a mile in your shoes. I really don't need to. I think its great (and admirable) that you've "had to work your ass off for everything that you have". You must be very industrious, but does it ever cross your mind for a second that everyone might not share your superlative work ethic, job opportunities, or specific hospital bill? :kiddingme

Bankruptcy laws have been available and used from the earliest recordings of humankind. A civil (and compassionate) society has always had some deep, dark place for all of those unfortunate members who find themselves without the means to repay their debts. This new law has been written to harass not only those who would "take the easy way out" (as you so eloquently put it), but those less fortunate people who really don't have any other option.

You say you "racked up" a nice hospital bill. That is unfortunate. How much was this bill? Did your bill run into the tens of thousands of dollars? The hundreds of thousands of dollars? If yes, then consider yourself lucky that you were able to pay them back. How does a waitress with no benefits, making less than minimum wage (because she makes tips), pay back 10, 20 ,or 100 thousand dollars? ???

Lastly, you claim that you "don't have contempt for people that have it tough", and you "feel sorry" for anyone who is struggling. Alas, you "try to help" where you can. That's really swell. Where I come from, "help" would be defined as not supporting new bankruptcy regs. that tip the balance to our beloved creditors...Peace


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to orangenblue2 again.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"Obscene. I was the editor of a publication called Credit Card News for several years, and spent a lot of time on this issue. It is unbelievable how moralistic these creeps get. The credit card industry is one of the most condensed industries in the world. You may THINK you are getting your card from your local bank or credit union, but probably you are not. Nearly all credit card accounts are owned by 10 or 11 huge banks; the rest are about 15 percent of the market, spread among hundreds of issuers.

When an industry condenses to that degree, bad things always happen. 10 years ago, the average bank lost a bit here and there to bankruptcy. It was no real big deal. But as the industry consolidated, while the percentage of bad debt didn't really change much (at least, due to bankruptcy), the dollar amount per issuer sure did. That it is probably the second-most profitable industry in this country after pharmaceuticals doesn't matter to a bean counter.

So here's what they did. They scoured their records to find every guy in the country who had scammed his way into bankruptcy and managed to keep his mansion, Rolls Royce and highly profitable business. There are scumbags out there who do this stuff. In Florida, for instance, they can't go after the equity you have in your house, and in most states, they can't go after your car, figuring you need it to get to work. They found a few hundred of these criminals, and like Reagan and his fictitious welfare queen with a chauffered Cadillac, they foisted this lie on the public and more important, the house and senate. They also found willing conspirators, like Bill McCollum of Florida, to keep it on the front burner.

Here are the facts. Nearly half of bankruptcies are the result of medical emergencies, and most of THEM are people who have insurance that didn't cover the worst expenses, like home care. The next biggest cause was divorce, where mainly women (but a lot of men too) suddenly had the choice of paying rent and food for their kids or paying lawyers, credit cards, Sears or car payments.

The next most likely cause was sudden job loss. In most cases, this was not the main breadwinner, but the loss of a secondary income, like the wife's part-time job. The loss seems insignificant but it is like the Chinese water torture...it builds up.

This is an evil law, and I hope we can get a Democratic congress in soon to repeal it. This victimizes people least able to fight back. The law pushes people from Chapter 7 (where your debts, except child support, taxes and some other things) are discharged unless you sign a reaffirmation agreement agreeing to pay at least a portion of your debt because you feel obliged to or you get some reward, like keeping a credit card) to Chapter 13, where everything is up for grabs. It gives equal weight to child support payments, car payments and other necessities as it does to credit card payments, retail card payments and other unsecured loans.

To date, people who for whatever reason chose Chapter 13 (and the credit counseling agencies are funded by the credit card companies, on the whole, and are meant to try to convince you to not go Chapter 7), fail almost immediately to stick to their plan. The concept is good, usually negotiating to eliminate late fees and reduce the interest rate, but by the time someone goes through the process, they have spent more on court costs and lawyer fees than they can really afford, and ALL the creditors jump on them at once. For someone with $20 in their checking account, it is impossible to find the money. There is even no allowance for continued health problems or unemployment: you have to pay no matter how bad things get.

I have attended several bankruptcy hearings as part of my job. It's heartrending. Today on NPR they had a story about a guy who was in the National Guard and was called up. So he lost his job, although that NEVER happens. He got to camp and they said that due to his gum disease, they couldn't take him, because they have no dentists in Iraq. They sent him home, with no health insurance and no pay, to a lost job. His wife, meanwhile, had sunk into depression, and lost her job at McDonald's. They instantly lost their house, which was already hanging on the edge, and now live in an old trailor with nothing to eat.

Society is meant for one thing: to make life better for everyone involved. There is no other purpose. If we had stayed rural people hunting our meals, we would have nearly no need for a society. But once you form one, you have a social contract. And that contract holds that life should get better for everyone, not just for a select few. I am willing to bet that Mr. Toothless voted for George Bush, because he is obviously too stupid to realize where his interests lie. He actually WANTED to go to Iraq, because he could make more money there. Nevertheless, as much as I despise the idiot, I feel sorry for him. He didn't do anything wrong except be born stupid.

This law is going to turn a lot of people into Mr. Toothless, through no fault of their own. So some credit card company can show a .008 improvement on its ROI. And that is what is going on."

- Pete Hisey

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/cc-priceless.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/tmw03-16-05.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/deadbeat-bush.gif

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

From Harpers, May 05:

Number of top-ten states for bankruptcy filings per capita that voted for Bush: 10