My Faith in Religion is turning .......

[Spider]

I dont have a link or anything , but while channel surfing , I caught a piece on MSNBC ..... Church of Christ , is saying that Jesus didnt turn anyone away , niether will they ......
Rev Kathrene Hawker . was explaining her and several other Christians take on Spongebob gate ......Props to MSNBC for giving the other Christians a voice on this ........ those that saw the Program saw that you dont have to become a Radical zealot to enjoy and worship their lord and savior .......
when the word Christians pop up I pictured zealots like Dr. Dobson , Errand , and Robb .........

[Hogan11]

You know, I used to go to church often.....every Sunday, I even wanted to be an alter boy...there was no pedos, no abuse, no activism......nothing like that at all, just worshiping God in peace and in our own way.

Then sometime in the early 80's, it all changed. All of a sudden, the Church became much more militant and if you had a difference of opinion on any social issues with Rome and /or didn't support certain politicians who were 100% conservative, then you were basically given a choice...either conform or be shunned.......now, I'd be lying if I didn't say I was hurt by it all on some level......but I was also in college studying philosophy at the time and becoming more and more disillusioned by the day with the religion I grew up in....so the overall blow was ultimately softened.

...and so I left on my own free will, never to return.

Now, personally, I've been waiting for a sect to come out with the reasonable commercial Spide has pointed out. I've seen it and I admire the stance.....but I'm also distrustful of it......in short, they'll have to prove it to me.

The Church of Christ is saying that Jesus didnt turn anyone away , niether will they.....noble words to be sure, much more than I've heard in many a year matter of fact.....but they'll have to prove it to me before I'm totally sold on it....religion has to earn my trust nowadays.

We'll see.

[errand]

Just because I defend my belief in God doesn't make me a zealot, Spider. It makes me a man of my convictions. Some things are worth defending. My belief in God is one of them. In fact it's numero uno in my book.

I've seen the miracles He has performed.....and I'm sure you have seen some yourself, but choose to deny them for what they are. When I stray from God and Jesus Christ's teachings...my life becomes more difficult. But when I do as He commands and as Jesus teaches, my life becomes more focused and my mind is at ease. See, I'm not perfect, spider...in fact I'm far from it. However I know that if I ask for His forgiveness, I will be forgiven. When I do as He commands, my life is more blessed.

That's just my experience with God....not all have the same. Many reasons why. Some believe and never stray, and therefoe are blessed in greater amounts for their faith. Others say they believe and continue to do the same things they did prior to coming to God....and then wonder why their lives are not as blessed as those who believe and stay on the correct path.

All I know is He does exist......and I think after seeing your brother's miracle of surviving that wreck, you know He exists too. You can keep running from Him Spider...but He will catch you sooner or later.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled sinful life..................

[Spider]

Just because I defend my belief in God doesn't make me a zealot, Spider. It makes me a man of my convictions. Some things are worth defending. My belief in God is one of them. In fact it's numero uno in my book.

I've seen the miracles He has performed.....and I'm sure you have seen some yourself, but choose to deny them for what they are. When I stray from God and Jesus Christ's teachings...my life becomes more difficult. But when I do as He commands and as Jesus teaches, my life becomes more focused and my mind is at ease. See, I'm not perfect, spider...in fact I'm far from it. However I know that if I ask for His forgiveness, I will be forgiven. When I do as He commands, my life is more blessed.

That's just my experience with God....not all have the same. Many reasons why. Some believe and never stray, and therefoe are blessed in greater amounts for their faith. Others say they believe and continue to do the same things they did prior to coming to God....and then wonder why their lives are not as blessed as those who believe and stay on the correct path.

All I know is He does exist......and I think after seeing your brother's miracle of surviving that wreck, you know He exists too. You can keep running from Him Spider...but He will catch you sooner or later.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled sinful life..................

I had all kinds of smart assed remarks typed out on this , and I decided not to post them ...... Concider this your Miracle for the day ;D
P.S. ........Maybe zealot was over the top ;D ......

[Spider]

You know, I used to go to church often.....every Sunday, I even wanted to be an alter boy...there was no pedos, no abuse, no activism......nothing like that at all, just worshiping God in peace and in our own way.
well it sounds as if you miss the fellowship you enjoyed , may you find that again .........

Then sometime in the early 80's, it all changed. All of a sudden, the Church became much more militant and if you had a difference of opinion on any social issues with Rome and /or didn't support certain politicians who were 100% conservative, then you were basically given a choice...either conform or be shunned.......now, I'd be lying if I didn't say I was hurt by it all on some level......but I was also in college studying philosophy at the time and becoming more and more disillusioned by the day with the religion I grew up in....so the overall blow was ultimately softened.
Yeah I see Christians here in Casper , and their political views are out there .... We have 1 advertising on TV here , and wow ...Dude ate paint chips as a kid

...and so I left on my own free will, never to return.

Now, personally, I've been waiting for a sect to come out with the reasonable commercial Spide has pointed out. I've seen it and I admire the stance.....but I'm also distrustful of it......in short, they'll have to prove it to me.

The Church of Christ is saying that Jesus didnt turn anyone away , niether will they.....noble words to be sure, much more than I've heard in many a year matter of fact.....but they'll have to prove it to me before I'm totally sold on it....religion has to earn my trust nowadays.

We'll see.
Well stated , I found myself believing these Christians on TV ....
I wish you luck in your search Bro , despite threads I have started , I am not anti Christian , I started those threads to piss people off , test their tolerence level ;D ......

[Mile High Shack]

well I go to a Church of Christ

so I agree with that to a point

hate the sin, love the sinner.........BUT if you continue in that sin...yadda yadda, you know how it goes.

Everyone is included but you do have to follow the rules...(not man's rules.....unless of course you don't believe in the bible, then I'm not sure why you'd go to church anyway)

[MistrSynistr]

Just because I defend my belief in God doesn't make me a zealot, Spider. It makes me a man of my convictions. Some things are worth defending. My belief in God is one of them. In fact it's numero uno in my book.

I've seen the miracles He has performed.....and I'm sure you have seen some yourself, but choose to deny them for what they are. When I stray from God and Jesus Christ's teachings...my life becomes more difficult. But when I do as He commands and as Jesus teaches, my life becomes more focused and my mind is at ease. See, I'm not perfect, spider...in fact I'm far from it. However I know that if I ask for His forgiveness, I will be forgiven. When I do as He commands, my life is more blessed.

That's just my experience with God....not all have the same. Many reasons why. Some believe and never stray, and therefoe are blessed in greater amounts for their faith. Others say they believe and continue to do the same things they did prior to coming to God....and then wonder why their lives are not as blessed as those who believe and stay on the correct path.

All I know is He does exist......and I think after seeing your brother's miracle of surviving that wreck, you know He exists too. You can keep running from Him Spider...but He will catch you sooner or later.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled sinful life..................

Nothing more comforting then knowing your #1 priority that comes above all else is a factless, baseless belief that affects others around you due to your nonsensical ideals.

Now I know why Americans are such morons.

[MistrSynistr]

Oh, and if any of you people who believe you've seen miracles (Although even the Bible tells you not to believe any supposed "miracles" you witness) ever used simple common sense to realize that these miracles aren't really miracles at all? One of you spoke of a car wreck someone survived. Uhhhh, why didn't your "God" just not make the car wreck happen? Why would he wait until after it occurs to save someone? He's quite picky. I mean hell, he let 3,000 of us die in the world trade towers and hundreds of thousands in the tsunami but he saved your brother from a probable car accident. "Thanks, God!"

Oh, and the logic behind subtle hints of God's existance are dopey as well. When you see these things "pointing" you in the way of Jesus (or whoever) you never actually factor in the 6 billion occurances per day you DON'T get pointed in that direction. It's all simple math.

And why does God need to hint and leave very very questionable "facts" to his existance to certain people? Why doesn't he just appear in your mind and tell you he's for real? He aims to confuse us so only the chosen few get "his word"? Wowza, he's quite the all loving character, isn't he?

Basically, you people are dumb. You haven't had enough education into religious studies and you've disregarded common sense. You can believe what you want, but unfortunately, you Christians (and other religions) have a bad habit of pushing your factless views on society. And that is where you're wrong.

Now please, knock it off.

[Spider]

Now I know why Americans are such morons.
Kiss my ass you goofball .........
Dont hate us cause we are the best Damn nation on the face of the earth ......
we are the leaders of the world .
i dont know what country you are from , But I am sure it is a 3 rd world country by our standards .........

[Mile High Shack]

Oh, and if any of you people who believe you've seen miracles (Although even the Bible tells you not to believe any supposed "miracles" you witness) ever used simple common sense to realize that these miracles aren't really miracles at all? One of you spoke of a car wreck someone survived. Uhhhh, why didn't your "God" just not make the car wreck happen? Why would he wait until after it occurs to save someone? He's quite picky. I mean hell, he let 3,000 of us die in the world trade towers and hundreds of thousands in the tsunami but he saved your brother from a probable car accident. "Thanks, God!"

Oh, and the logic behind subtle hints of God's existance are dopey as well. When you see these things "pointing" you in the way of Jesus (or whoever) you never actually factor in the 6 billion occurances per day you DON'T get pointed in that direction. It's all simple math.

And why does God need to hint and leave very very questionable "facts" to his existance to certain people? Why doesn't he just appear in your mind and tell you he's for real? He aims to confuse us so only the chosen few get "his word"? Wowza, he's quite the all loving character, isn't he?

Basically, you people are dumb. You haven't had enough education into religious studies and you've disregarded common sense. You can believe what http://www.orangemane.com/BB/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=533189you want, but unfortunately, you Christians (and other religions) have a bad habit of pushing your factless views on society. And that is where you're wrong.

Now please, knock it off.

troll alert...troll alert

if you think you posting on a message board is going to change someones mind....maybe YOU are the idiot

[Falconer]

Oh, and if any of you people who believe you've seen miracles (Although even the Bible tells you not to believe any supposed "miracles" you witness) ever used simple common sense to realize that these miracles aren't really miracles at all? One of you spoke of a car wreck someone survived. Uhhhh, why didn't your "God" just not make the car wreck happen? Why would he wait until after it occurs to save someone? He's quite picky. I mean hell, he let 3,000 of us die in the world trade towers and hundreds of thousands in the tsunami but he saved your brother from a probable car accident. "Thanks, God!"

Oh, and the logic behind subtle hints of God's existance are dopey as well. When you see these things "pointing" you in the way of Jesus (or whoever) you never actually factor in the 6 billion occurances per day you DON'T get pointed in that direction. It's all simple math.

And why does God need to hint and leave very very questionable "facts" to his existance to certain people? Why doesn't he just appear in your mind and tell you he's for real? He aims to confuse us so only the chosen few get "his word"? Wowza, he's quite the all loving character, isn't he?

Basically, you people are dumb. You haven't had enough education into religious studies and you've disregarded common sense. You can believe what you want, but unfortunately, you Christians (and other religions) have a bad habit of pushing your factless views on society. And that is where you're wrong.

Now please, knock it off.

I know that I should know better than to answer a post such as this, but I just cannot help myself. I believe that you have the right to believe whatever you would like, but to call a person dumb for their beliefs is rather "dumb." You are playing one of the same old tunes that have been disproved over and over. There are plenty of intelligent educated people that believe in God, just as there are plenty of people who are unintelligent and uneducated who believe in God. There are also people who do not believe in God that fit into the aforementioned categories. If it was really as simple as you think that it is, then religion wouldn't be as prevalent as it is today. It is only those who think that they are "enlightened" who believe as you do.

[orangeatheist]

I dont have a link or anything , but while channel surfing , I caught a piece on MSNBC ..... Church of Christ , is saying that Jesus didnt turn anyone away , niether will they ......
Rev Kathrene Hawker . was explaining her and several other Christians take on Spongebob gate ......Props to MSNBC for giving the other Christians a voice on this ........ those that saw the Program saw that you dont have to become a Radical zealot to enjoy and worship their lord and savior .......
when the word Christians pop up I pictured zealots like Dr. Dobson , Errand , and Robb .........

Christianity has many flavors, just as does every other religion. Not all Muslims stap bombs to themselves. When I was in Japan a few years ago I was there with the impression that Buddhists were pacifist, mild-mannered, and shy about their religion. Then I go to dinner with one who wouldn't stop telling me how wrong all the other religions were and how one can only find hope in her particular brand of Buddhism. She was even bad-mouthing the native Shinto faith. It was an eye-opener for me. (There is a Buddhist saying, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." Guess this chick had never heard that saying before!)

[orangeatheist]

You know, I used to go to church often.....every Sunday, I even wanted to be an alter boy...there was no pedos, no abuse, no activism......nothing like that at all, just worshiping God in peace and in our own way.

Then sometime in the early 80's, it all changed. All of a sudden, the Church became much more militant and if you had a difference of opinion on any social issues with Rome and /or didn't support certain politicians who were 100% conservative, then you were basically given a choice...either conform or be shunned.......now, I'd be lying if I didn't say I was hurt by it all on some level......but I was also in college studying philosophy at the time and becoming more and more disillusioned by the day with the religion I grew up in....so the overall blow was ultimately softened.

...and so I left on my own free will, never to return.

Now, personally, I've been waiting for a sect to come out with the reasonable commercial Spide has pointed out. I've seen it and I admire the stance.....but I'm also distrustful of it......in short, they'll have to prove it to me.

The Church of Christ is saying that Jesus didnt turn anyone away , niether will they.....noble words to be sure, much more than I've heard in many a year matter of fact.....but they'll have to prove it to me before I'm totally sold on it....religion has to earn my trust nowadays.

We'll see.


If you're looking for a "live and let live" religion, you can try Universalist Unitarians, Ba'hai or Taoism. ???

[Rascal]

You know, I used to go to church often.....every Sunday, I even wanted to be an alter boy...there was no pedos, no abuse, no activism......nothing like that at all, just worshiping God in peace and in our own way.

Then sometime in the early 80's, it all changed. All of a sudden, the Church became much more militant and if you had a difference of opinion on any social issues with Rome and /or didn't support certain politicians who were 100% conservative, then you were basically given a choice...either conform or be shunned.......now, I'd be lying if I didn't say I was hurt by it all on some level......but I was also in college studying philosophy at the time and becoming more and more disillusioned by the day with the religion I grew up in....so the overall blow was ultimately softened.

...and so I left on my own free will, never to return.

Now, personally, I've been waiting for a sect to come out with the reasonable commercial Spide has pointed out. I've seen it and I admire the stance.....but I'm also distrustful of it......in short, they'll have to prove it to me.

The Church of Christ is saying that Jesus didnt turn anyone away , niether will they.....noble words to be sure, much more than I've heard in many a year matter of fact.....but they'll have to prove it to me before I'm totally sold on it....religion has to earn my trust nowadays.

We'll see.

How could they prove it to you?

I, like Shack, belong to Church of Christ. Granted there will always be individuals that will turn their back on others and that isn't right, so don't let a few bad apples dictate how the norm is for a certain sect.

Go to Church and try it out sometime. What you may view as turning their back, may also be being afraid of the unknown or something different.

[orangeatheist]

I've seen the miracles He has performed.....and I'm sure you have seen some yourself, but choose to deny them for what they are.

Not to hijack the thread...
:threadjac
But would you mind detailing these "miracles" you've seen, errand? And not to ambush you I'll tell you that my intent is to analyze what you believe to have been a "miracle" and see if what you describe can be labled as such. If you'd rather keep this private, feel free.

Fact is, I don't believe in "miracles" and I don't think you've ever witnessed one. I want to test my own opinion against your perceptions.

[orangeatheist]

I know that I should know better than to answer a post such as this, but I just cannot help myself. I believe that you have the right to believe whatever you would like, but to call a person dumb for their beliefs is rather "dumb." You are playing one of the same old tunes that have been disproved over and over. There are plenty of intelligent educated people that believe in God, just as there are plenty of people who are unintelligent and uneducated who believe in God. There are also people who do not believe in God that fit into the aforementioned categories. If it was really as simple as you think that it is, then religion wouldn't be as prevalent as it is today. It is only those who think that they are "enlightened" who believe as you do.

I agree. Very intelligent people who may share brilliance in physics or chemistry or electronics can disagree violently on the existence of god.

What does that tell you?

[Rascal]

I got one for you.

My Grandpa was recently in the hospital and not expected to live...in fact they gave him last rights...catholic hospital.

He had kidney failure, massive internal e-coli infection, pneumonia, and several other things. He has congestive heart failure and diabetis. He has also had several strokes and a pace maker. Basically...he was screwed.

The doctors were giving him a massive load of antibiotics to kill the e-coli and doing several other measures to take care of all his problems. My brother in law's sister is one of the top 5 doctors in the world with kidneys...she personally came from Duke or UNC I can't remember which and said that there is nothing to be done and it's only a matter of time before he dies (poisoned by his own blood). The couldn't perform surgery to have a kidney dialysis because there was no way he would survive...oh he wasn't breathing on his own. The anti-biotics weren't doing anything to stop or even slow the spread of the e-coli...my dad is a pharmacist and he said that the drugs they were giving him would kill a horse. I have two aunts that are nurses (my Grandpa's daughters actually), and both said that it was a matter of time.

To make him more comfortable, knowing there was nothing that could be done, they took him off all medications (except morphine) and life support. In two days he was completely healed...explain that.

The doctors said there was no reason why he should be alive. One came up and said he didn't believe in God but the the only explanation he could give was that there was divine intervention because there was no medical explanation. My brother in law's sister came back down and couldn't believe it herself (I think she came back to talk to the doctors but that's a different point).

That was a miracle and nothing you can say will ever change that. I have personal statements from professionals and one of the best kidney doctors in the world to rest my, and their, opinion on...some who don't even believe in God.

[Falconer]

I agree. Very intelligent people who may share brilliance in physics or chemistry or electronics can disagree violently on the existence of god.

What does that tell you?

That they are wrong and I am right! ;D It would actually tell me that a lot of people have different sets of experiences. These experiences will either lend credence to the existence of God, or not.

[Spider]

I got one for you.

My Grandpa was recently in the hospital and not expected to live...in fact they gave him last rights...catholic hospital.

He had kidney failure, massive internal e-coli infection, pneumonia, and several other things. He has congestive heart failure and diabetis. He has also had several strokes and a pace maker. Basically...he was screwed.

The doctors were giving him a massive load of antibiotics to kill the e-coli and doing several other measures to take care of all his problems. My brother in law's sister is one of the top 5 doctors in the world with kidneys...she personally came from Duke or UNC I can't remember which and said that there is nothing to be done and it's only a matter of time before he dies (poisoned by his own blood). The couldn't perform surgery to have a kidney dialysis because there was no way he would survive...oh he wasn't breathing on his own. The anti-biotics weren't doing anything to stop or even slow the spread of the e-coli...my dad is a pharmacist and he said that the drugs they were giving him would kill a horse. I have two aunts that are nurses (my Grandpa's daughters actually), and both said that it was a matter of time.

To make him more comfortable, knowing there was nothing that could be done, they took him off all medications (except morphine) and life support. In two days he was completely healed...explain that.

The doctors said there was no reason why he should be alive. One came up and said he didn't believe in God but the the only explanation he could give was that there was divine intervention because there was no medical explanation. My brother in law's sister came back down and couldn't believe it herself (I think she came back to talk to the doctors but that's a different point).

That was a miracle and nothing you can say will ever change that. I have personal statements from professionals and one of the best kidney doctors in the world to rest my, and their, opinion on...some who don't even believe in God.

Thats an easy one to explain ........ he wasnt done spending youre Inheritance ;D

[Falconer]

Not to hijack the thread...
:threadjac
But would you mind detailing these "miracles" you've seen, errand? And not to ambush you I'll tell you that my intent is to analyze what you believe to have been a "miracle" and see if what you describe can be labled as such. If you'd rather keep this private, feel free.

Fact is, I don't believe in "miracles" and I don't think you've ever witnessed one. I want to test my own opinion against your perceptions.

Samuel

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Nothing more comforting then knowing your #1 priority that comes above all else is a factless, baseless belief that affects others around you due to your nonsensical ideals.

Now I know why Americans are such morons.

While I am quite tolerant of almost everyone and I do have my own personal religious beliefs, it appears like MistrSynistr has a devoted belief in cartoon characters. I can tolerate that to a point as long as he does not want to date my daughter.

[TheDave]

I'm telling you all... Church of the Dave!

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:undecided

[MistrSynistr]

Kiss my ass you goofball .........
Dont hate us cause we are the best Damn nation on the face of the earth ......
we are the leaders of the world .
i dont know what country you are from , But I am sure it is a 3 rd world country by our standards .........

Your feeble little ignorant way of thinking is why most people around the world can't stand us. The ones who don't just have too many other things to worry about.

I honestly hope this post is an attempt at sarcasm.

Have you ever been to any other "nations?" What makes America the "best damn nation?" Because someone told you it was? Because we make music and movies here that people idolize?

You're a dope. Look no further north and you'll see a country that doesn't let dark-aged religious beliefs interfere with government. Who provides health care to ALL it's citizens. Wowza, one second and I found a better "nation" than America. Shall we look across the Atlantic and pick out a few more? Sweden? Amsterdamn? Denmark? Australia? New Zealand?

Oh, don't tell me you're going to go on the schpeal about how big our dicks are. You're like the ignorant jock in highschool who thought he was king **** because he had big arms.

Funny you mention your standards? Which ones? America the land of the free, or the America home of the oppressed. Or perhaps the new America where we invade countries for ****'s n' giggles, "because we can".

People like you who suffer from lack of education and experience should not be called names, and for that I apologize. But I do insist you turn off FOXNEWS for a minute and do some thinking for yourself.

[MistrSynistr]

I know that I should know better than to answer a post such as this, but I just cannot help myself. I believe that you have the right to believe whatever you would like, but to call a person dumb for their beliefs is rather "dumb." You are playing one of the same old tunes that have been disproved over and over. There are plenty of intelligent educated people that believe in God, just as there are plenty of people who are unintelligent and uneducated who believe in God. There are also people who do not believe in God that fit into the aforementioned categories. If it was really as simple as you think that it is, then religion wouldn't be as prevalent as it is today. It is only those who think that they are "enlightened" who believe as you do.

Please re-read the post and realize how "dumb" you're sounding now.

Your beliefs=No facts.

Your beliefs pushed on society=Bigotry.

Your beliefs=Keep them to yourself. They are not factual, and only hinder human existance, not bring "moral" values to it.

Religion is ignorance. I never said anything about the existance of "God" being true or not. Try examining information instead of skimming over it or just believing what you hear. It's obvious you do enough of this in your personal life and unfortunatly silly habits like that will carry over to affect those around you.

[MistrSynistr]

While I am quite tolerant of almost everyone and I do have my own personal religious beliefs, it appears like MistrSynistr has a devoted belief in cartoon characters. I can tolerate that to a point as long as he does not want to date my daughter.

If you're going to make a condescending pun, get your facts straight. Mister Sinister is a comic book character, not cartoon.

[Hotrod]

Your feeble little ignorant way of thinking is why most people around the world can't stand us. The ones who don't just have too many other things to worry about.

I honestly hope this post is an attempt at sarcasm.

Have you ever been to any other "nations?" What makes America the "best damn nation?" Because someone told you it was? Because we make music and movies here that people idolize?

You're a dope. Look no further north and you'll see a country that doesn't let dark-aged religious beliefs interfere with government. Who provides health care to ALL it's citizens. Wowza, one second and I found a better "nation" than America. Shall we look across the Atlantic and pick out a few more? Sweden? Amsterdamn? Denmark? Australia? New Zealand?

Oh, don't tell me you're going to go on the schpeal about how big our dicks are. You're like the ignorant jock in highschool who thought he was king **** because he had big arms.

Funny you mention your standards? Which ones? America the land of the free, or the America home of the oppressed. Or perhaps the new America where we invade countries for ****'s n' giggles, "because we can".

People like you who suffer from lack of education and experience should not be called names, and for that I apologize. But I do insist you turn off FOXNEWS for a minute and do some thinking for yourself.

LOL I just remembered why I avoid this part of the Mane.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

If you're going to make a condescending pun, get your facts straight. Mister Sinister is a comic book character, not cartoon.

Point taken. I am sure you are very devoted to him and I will never make that mistake again. Now go back to your game boy and stay the f*** away from my daughters.

[orangeatheist]

Samuel


I'm not touching that one, Falc! Don't do that!

[orangeatheist]

I got one for you.

My Grandpa was recently in the hospital and not expected to live...in fact they gave him last rights...catholic hospital.

He had kidney failure, massive internal e-coli infection, pneumonia, and several other things. He has congestive heart failure and diabetis. He has also had several strokes and a pace maker. Basically...he was screwed.

The doctors were giving him a massive load of antibiotics to kill the e-coli and doing several other measures to take care of all his problems. My brother in law's sister is one of the top 5 doctors in the world with kidneys...she personally came from Duke or UNC I can't remember which and said that there is nothing to be done and it's only a matter of time before he dies (poisoned by his own blood). The couldn't perform surgery to have a kidney dialysis because there was no way he would survive...oh he wasn't breathing on his own. The anti-biotics weren't doing anything to stop or even slow the spread of the e-coli...my dad is a pharmacist and he said that the drugs they were giving him would kill a horse. I have two aunts that are nurses (my Grandpa's daughters actually), and both said that it was a matter of time.

To make him more comfortable, knowing there was nothing that could be done, they took him off all medications (except morphine) and life support. In two days he was completely healed...explain that.

The doctors said there was no reason why he should be alive. One came up and said he didn't believe in God but the the only explanation he could give was that there was divine intervention because there was no medical explanation. My brother in law's sister came back down and couldn't believe it herself (I think she came back to talk to the doctors but that's a different point).

That was a miracle and nothing you can say will ever change that. I have personal statements from professionals and one of the best kidney doctors in the world to rest my, and their, opinion on...some who don't even believe in God.


If there is nothing I can ever say that will change your opinion, why even try?

But here's something to contemplate:

1.) Science isn't perfect. Things happen that science can't explain but, like I've stated before, never once when science has gone after looking for an explanation for a given phenom has it uncovered the face of God.

2.) Your information is second-hand. Not sure how many of the details have changed in the retelling.

3.) People recovering from life-threatening illnesses is not unheard of. The medical journals have many such stories. There is no common denominator in these stories other than the unexplained recovery. Not all were Christians. Not all believed in a god.

4.) Did any of the attending physicians, who were agnostic or atheist, become believers following your grandpa's recovery?

5.) Not to sound callaus, but why was your grandpa saved from his illness but not the tens of thousands of people hit by the tsunami? What about the grandmother in another room in the hospital who appeared to be recovering from her illness --with all thanks to God, of course-- who nonetheless mysteriously died (no medically known cause) later that evening? Or what of the mother giving birth in the maternity ward who died from massive hemmoriging? Why did your grandpa have a miraculous recovery but not these other people? (And, please, do not chaulk this up to the "mystery" of God's ways)

6.) Your grandpa was in a hospital being pumped with medications. Who's to say that any one of those, even after initial removal, wasn't the cause of the cure?

7.) Did grandpa immediately get up out of bed the next morning, ready to dance a gig? Was he fully recovered? Not a trace of the diseases? Was his diabetes cured? Does he not have to take insulin anymore?

To comment on your "miracle," I'd have to see more medical documentation and speak to the attending physicians. Can you get a written statement from your brother-in-law's sister, detailing her qualifications and her assessment of the severity of the illness and the patient's subsequent recovery?

You see, this is where I don't understand theists. You readily allow God to "fill the gaps" in your knowledge ("Don't know how grandpa made it...must be GOD!") but accept all the other scientific support that cannot be refuted. You'll allow grandpa to be pumped with medicine that has proven results but when these fail and grandpa recovers you credit God. Where was this miraculous god before your grandpa got all this misery? Why suffer the old man just to bring him back from the brink of death? What purpose did that serve?

[Falconer]

Please re-read the post and realize how "dumb" you're sounding now.

Your beliefs=No facts.

Your beliefs pushed on society=Bigotry.

Your beliefs=Keep them to yourself. They are not factual, and only hinder human existance, not bring "moral" values to it.

Religion is ignorance. I never said anything about the existance of "God" being true or not. Try examining information instead of skimming over it or just believing what you hear. It's obvious you do enough of this in your personal life and unfortunatly silly habits like that will carry over to affect those around you.

You do enjoy throwing the word dumb around. I did indeed re-read both your post, and also my own. After doing this I found that if I am sounding dumb it is only because you are too ignorant to understand simple English.

My beliefs = Some facts and also my own personal experiences.

My beliefs pushed on society = I have never pushed them on anyone, so I guess you are just jumping to conclusions.

My beliefs = I keep them mostly to myself unless someone inquires of them. I suppose you are the arbiter of facts.

By the way, most of the time if you believe in the existence God, you have some kind of beliefs. I am also amazed that you can analyze my personal life from one post. Talk about examining information!

[orangeatheist]

If you're going to make a condescending pun, get your facts straight. Mister Sinister is a comic book character, not cartoon.

Any shred of credibilty this poster had....shot to hell.

[orangeatheist]

My beliefs pushed on society = I have never pushed them on anyone, so I guess you are just jumping to conclusions.


Which is why I have the utmost respect for Falc. Don't know why the hell he tolerates me!

[Falconer]

I'm not touching that one, Falc! Don't do that!

I'm sorry OA. I did not do that to jab you, but it is the truth to me. He is my miracle. What I mean by this is that Samuel has enabled me to be more reliant on God and to appreciate the little things that had gone unnoticed before. As much as it hurts sometimes, I love my Sam with all that is good inside of me. Instead of praying to God for miracle, I understand now that Samuel is my miracle. He has accomplished things for me that I could not do. Although we are not sure how long God will allow this precious gift to remain with us, we seek to enjoy every bit of what Samuel has to offer; and that is more than I could ever believe or imagine. He cannot talk, walk, sit, or stand, but you only need to look into those blue eyes once and you are sure to see the greatest gift God ever gave us, love.

Now it is true that if scientists tried to find God in this, they would not. That is the point though is it not; a miracle is something that science has no explanation for. I am not looking for science to validate God, although I do believe that it has the ablility to give me a better understanding of Him.

[Hogan11]

If you're looking for a "live and let live" religion, you can try Universalist Unitarians, Ba'hai or Taoism. ???

Maybe Zen Buddhism? Actually, I'm not really looking, to tell you the absolute truth.

[Rascal]

If there is nothing I can ever say that will change your opinion, why even try?

I don't know but you are stubborn about it.


But here's something to contemplate:

1.) Science isn't perfect. Things happen that science can't explain but, like I've stated before, never once when science has gone after looking for an explanation for a given phenom has it uncovered the face of God.?

Yet it's the same science that you prove evolution, big bang, etc? If it's good for one part why not another? So we have the capability to discover the hidden intracasies of the universe being born but we can't know about the human body...BS.



2.) Your information is second-hand. Not sure how many of the details have changed in the retelling.


Since this happened two weeks ago my information is accurate.



3.) People recovering from life-threatening illnesses is not unheard of. The medical journals have many such stories. There is no common denominator in these stories other than the unexplained recovery. Not all were Christians. Not all believed in a god.


So? Why do miracles only have to happen to those who believe? God may have a reason to do certain things, and I don't pretend to know his reasoning.


4.) Did any of the attending physicians, who were agnostic or atheist, become believers following your grandpa's recovery?


I don't know if they are believers per say, but the attending physicians and my sister in law did recognize the fact that it is the only reason.


5.) Not to sound callaus, but why was your grandpa saved from his illness but not the tens of thousands of people hit by the tsunami? What about the grandmother in another room in the hospital who appeared to be recovering from her illness --with all thanks to God, of course-- who nonetheless mysteriously died (no medically known cause) later that evening? Or what of the mother giving birth in the maternity ward who died from massive hemmoriging? Why did your grandpa have a miraculous recovery but not these other people? (And, please, do not chaulk this up to the "mystery" of God's ways)


Like I've said numerous times, I don't know why God does certain things nor do I pretend to. Why did he let my wife's sister die in a car accident on x-mas day two years ago at the age of 20...I don't know.

When I die I will ask him and shout to you the answer (since you'll be on the other side :) )


6.) Your grandpa was in a hospital being pumped with medications. Who's to say that any one of those, even after initial removal, wasn't the cause of the cure?

Because they were taking regular blood tests and those tests showed that the medication was not working, they stopped administering antiobiotics but did not stop taking blood tests. Thirty six hours after administering the last antibiotics the blood tests showed that the infection was gone, but the blood tests at 32 hours revealed a full blown infection. The doctors said the medication...even if it had been working (which it wasn't) would take longer then 4 hours to work (ie they would have seen a decline in the infection but they didn't, they saw it increasing).


7.) Did grandpa immediately get up out of bed the next morning, ready to dance a gig? Was he fully recovered? Not a trace of the diseases? Was his diabetes cured? Does he not have to take insulin anymore?

Actually yeah, he doesn't have 2nd or 3rd (can't remember which) degree diabetes anymore, it's now controlled through a diet (1st degree I believe). And you can't use the argument he choose not to control it by dieting before because his diet didn't affect his diabetes till after this. Of course your response will be why not complete healing from diabetes...my response will be again because I don't know why God decides to do certain things.


To comment on your "miracle," I'd have to see more medical documentation and speak to the attending physicians. Can you get a written statement from your brother-in-law's sister, detailing her qualifications and her assessment of the severity of the illness and the patient's subsequent recovery?

You see, this is where I don't understand theists. You readily allow God to "fill the gaps" in your knowledge ("Don't know how grandpa made it...must be GOD!") but accept all the other scientific support that cannot be refuted. You'll allow grandpa to be pumped with medicine that has proven results but when these fail and grandpa recovers you credit God. Where was this miraculous god before your grandpa got all this misery? Why suffer the old man just to bring him back from the brink of death? What purpose did that serve?

I haven't spoken to the physicians since then (well i sent a card anyway). I'll talk to my brother in law about getting a letter but I doubt it's going to happen.

See this is where I don't understand scientists...there are unexplainable events..my grandpa and samuel being examples...and yet you can't accept the fact that their might be a higher being at work. Instead you allow theories to fill in your gap in knowledge.

Again, I don't pretend to know why God does certain things. Me a finite being trying to reason with an infinite all knowing being...yeah right. Heck, after this my aunt rededicated herself to God...maybe that's why it happened who knows.

Suffer the old man...prior to this (and after) my Grandpa lived a great life and did (does) things that he wanted to do.

[Rascal]

I'm sorry OA. I did not do that to jab you, but it is the truth to me. He is my miracle. What I mean by this is that Samuel has enabled me to be more reliant on God and to appreciate the little things that had gone unnoticed before. As much as it hurts sometimes, I love my Sam with all that is good inside of me. Instead of praying to God for miracle, I understand now that Samuel is my miracle. He has accomplished things for me that I could not do. Although we are not sure how long God will allow this precious gift to remain with us, we seek to enjoy every bit of what Samuel has to offer; and that is more than I could ever believe or imagine. He cannot talk, walk, sit, or stand, but you only need to look into those blue eyes once and you are sure to see the greatest gift God ever gave us, love.

Now it is true that if scientists tried to find God in this, they would not. That is the point though is it not; a miracle is something that science has no explanation for. I am not looking for science to validate God, although I do believe that it has the ablility to give me a better understanding of Him.

Great post.

[Hogan11]

How could they prove it to you?

Well, for a start, if they don't threaten local and national politicans, as well as it's own members, who hold liberal social views with excommunication....and if they don't organize or participate in things like bus trips to anti-abortion rallies...then we might actually have some promise here....otherwise, I'll pass on it.

[Rascal]

Thats an easy one to explain ........ he wasnt done spending youre Inheritance ;D

Problem...he never did.

He's a poor old farmer who lives off SS and money that us kids give them.

So maybe he wasn't done spending our money.

[Rascal]

Well, for a start, if they don't threaten local and national politians, as well as it's own members, who hold liberal social views with excommunication....and if they don't organize or participate in things like bus trips to anti-abortion rallies...then we might actually have some promise here....otherwise, I'll pass on it.

Well I can't speak for other churches but the one that I affiliate with or myself have never threatened excommunication with someone or threaten politicians.

That pisses me off as well and gives a bad name. Personally I think Pat Buchanon and whoever else need to shut the hell up at times.

Why should they not participate in bus trips to anti-abortion rallies? because you are religious you are no longer allowed to protest?

So I don't agree with certain things...homosexuality and abortion being an example...that doesn't mean I excommunicate people from worshipping with me because they disagree with me on those issues. We might have "disagreements" about it at times. See I was taught that there is no heiarchy of sins...every sin counts for the same except one. So should people in my church excommunicate me because I lied or something...no.

[Mile High Shack]

Well I can't speak for other churches but the one that I affiliate with or myself have never threatened excommunication with someone or threaten politicians.

That pisses me off as well and gives a bad name. Personally I think Pat Buchanon and whoever else need to shut the hell up at times.

Why should they not participate in bus trips to anti-abortion rallies? because you are religious you are no longer allowed to protest?

So I don't agree with certain things...homosexuality and abortion being an example...that doesn't mean I excommunicate people from worshipping with me because they disagree with me on those issues. We might have "disagreements" about it at times. See I was taught that there is no heiarchy of sins...every sin counts for the same except one. So should people in my church excommunicate me because I lied or something...no.

every sin the same in God's eyes

there are no "deadly sins" or one worse than the other, people don't seem to understand that.

in GOD'S (not man's) eyes they are all the same.

even a murderer on death row could become a chrisitian, but that doesn't mean he won't have to reap what he sowed on earth.

[Hogan11]

Well I can't speak for other churches but the one that I affiliate with or myself have never threatened excommunication with someone or threaten politicians.

That pisses me off as well and gives a bad name. Personally I think Pat Buchanon and whoever else need to shut the hell up at times.

Why should they not participate in bus trips to anti-abortion rallies? because you are religious you are no longer allowed to protest?

So I don't agree with certain things...homosexuality and abortion being an example...that doesn't mean I excommunicate people from worshipping with me because they disagree with me on those issues. We might have "disagreements" about it at times. See I was taught that there is no heiarchy of sins...every sin counts for the same except one. So should people in my church excommunicate me because I lied or something...no.

I'm sorry, but you're in the minority with the above. The Church campaigned actively against Kerry in the last election because of his liberal social views....he was threatened with excommunication as well as told he could no longer receive holy communion....that was not an isolated instance either, they've been doing this to liberal politicians since the late 80's.

As a former Catholic, the Church must become apolitical once again if it ever expects me to return because, quite frankly, that kinda stuff is not what I went there for. Any other perspective religion must also be apolitical in order to interest me because I have no intention of being a part of any sect that refuses to seperate the two.

[Mile High Shack]

I'm sorry, but you're in the minority with the above. The Church campaigned actively against Kerry in the last election because of his liberal social views....he was threatened with excommunication as well as told he could no longer receive holy communion....that was not an isolated instance either, they've been doing this to liberal politicians since the late 80's.

As a former Catholic, the Church must become apolitical once again if it ever expects me to return because, quite frankly, that kinda stuff is not what I went there for. Any other perspective religion must also be apolitical in order to interest me because I have no intention of being a part of any sect that refuses to seperate the two.

I don't think rascal was talking about Catholics ;)

[Rascal]

I'm sorry, but you're in the minority with the above. The Church campaigned actively against Kerry in the last election because of his liberal social views....he was threatened with excommunication as well as told he could no longer receive holy communion....that was not an isolated instance either, they've been doing this to liberal politicians since the late 80's.

As a former Catholic, the Church must become apolitical once again if it ever expects me to return because, quite frankly, that kinda stuff is not what I went there for. Any other perspective religion must also be apolitical in order to interest me because I have no intention of being a part of any sect that refuses to seperate the two.

The Church you are talking about is Catholic, Baptists, Methodists or whatever. While my Church did obviously favor Bush, never once did somebody mention sending Kerry to hell or those who voted for him. I don't think the Church elders or minister ever publicly endorse Bush or other republicans who were running even though we did have a member who was running for state office.

IMO it's a mistake for Church's to threaten excommunication although I know it's done. To my knowledge the Church of Christ hasn't done such a thing, but then we aren't as big as Catholics or Baptists.

[Hogan11]

I don't think rascal was talking about Catholics ;)

I know he wasn't....I was stating what drove me away from the religion I grew up in and what I will not put up with in any other prospective religions that I may take a future interest in.........that is all.

[Hotrod]

This is an interesting article that seems to fit into this particular pissing match ;D

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20041220005244&newsLang=en

[Spider]

I'm telling you all... Church of the Dave!

1/2 off February salvation special...

User friendly 24 hour online confesionals... cleanse that sole any time night or day!

And now introducing New and exciting Afterlife theories, including virgins, halos, reincarnation, etc.... If you can dream it we can assure you that you are right!

Don't hesitate, this offer wont last forever... and neither will you!


:undecided
Sign me up ....... I have a confession ........Some of my post have bad intentions ..... yeah i know it is hard to see that ;D

[Spider]

Problem...he never did.

He's a poor old farmer who lives off SS and money that us kids give them.

So maybe he wasn't done spending our money.
Either way you will be broke ;D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Religion is ignorance.

I, for one, don't believe religion is intrinsically bad or ignorant. In fact, I think religion can sometimes be an extremely positive psychological/sociological force.

What people do in the name of this, that, or the other religion is quite often ignorant and destructive, IMO.

I have no patience with people who believe there is only one true religion or who argue for the superiority of one religion over another. I have an innate aversion to most churches and to organized religion in general.

Religion as fact or history is almost worthless, IMO.

Religion as myth can be extremely beneficial and life-enhancing.

Religion is soul, and all religions express a deep, archetypal level of meaning and truth in some form or another.

Just my two cents' worth.

[Spider]

The Church you are talking about is Catholic, Baptists, Methodists or whatever. While my Church did obviously favor Bush, never once did somebody mention sending Kerry to hell or those who voted for him. I don't think the Church elders or minister ever publicly endorse Bush or other republicans who were running even though we did have a member who was running for state office.

IMO it's a mistake for Church's to threaten excommunication although I know it's done. To my knowledge the Church of Christ hasn't done such a thing, but then we aren't as big as Catholics or Baptists.
Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs , he went as far as saying No Salvation to those that vote for a party that support abortion .........

[Rascal]

Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs , he went as far as saying No Salvation to those that vote for a party that support abortion .........

Let me guess...catholic. There is a reason why I don't belong to the Catholic Church.

And I thought it was God, through Jesus Grace etc etc, that decided who was saved and who was not...I guess Sheridan thinks he's God. Moron.

[Rascal]

Either way you will be broke ;D

true that.

[Spider]

Let me guess...catholic. There is a reason why I don't belong to the Catholic Church.

And I thought it was God, through Jesus Grace etc etc, that decided who was saved and who was not...I guess Sheridan thinks he's God. Moron.
;D .......He is somthing Else ........

[Hogan11]

;D .......He is somthing Else ........

You think he's bad? Remember Cardinal O'Connor in NYC? I swear being an insane radical is a qualification for that position anymore.

I really miss the Catholic Church I was raised in, before the ~Popps~ guys took it over.....and they have the gaul to wonder why attendance has slipped over the years ::)

[Falconer]

You do enjoy throwing the word dumb around. I did indeed re-read both your post, and also my own. After doing this I found that if I am sounding dumb it is only because you are too ignorant to understand simple English.

I would like to take this time to apologize to MistrSynistr and those others on the board who have read this part of my post. I realize that this attack was sophomoric at best, and only served to degrade another. Although I still disagree with the sentiment that MistrSynistr expressed there are better avenues that I could have used to make my point.

[Rascal]

No need to apoligize as everything you said was correct :)

[Spider]

You think he's bad? Remember Cardinal O'Connor in NYC? I swear being an insane radical is a qualification for that position anymore.

I really miss the Catholic Church I was raised in, before the ~Popps~ guys took it over.....and they have the gaul to wonder why attendance has slipped over the years ::)
My Wife is luthren , maybe you can find something there Bro

[Mile High Shack]

I would like to take this time to apologize to MistrSynistr and those others on the board who have read this part of my post. I realize that this attack was sophomoric at best, and only served to degrade another. Although I still disagree with the sentiment that MistrSynistr expressed there are better avenues that I could have used to make my point.

why are you apologizing, dude is a troll, saying things like that to get people mad

[Falconer]

why are you apologizing, dude is a troll, saying things like that to get people mad

Probably, but what good does it do me to act in a like manner? If I cannot restrain myself from letting my pride get the best of me on a message board, then I should not post at all. I always try very hard to never make personal comments about anyone no matter how outraged I might be at their behavior. This time I failed, and I believe that an apology was in order.

[bronco_diesel]

Probably, but what good does it do me to act in a like manner? If I cannot restrain myself from letting my pride get the best of me on a message board, then I should not post at all. I always try very hard to never make personal comments about anyone no matter how outraged I might be at their behavior. This time I failed, and I believe that an apology was in order.

falcon - this is an example of true class. you're a good man!

[errand]

Not to hijack the thread...
:threadjac
But would you mind detailing these "miracles" you've seen, errand? And not to ambush you I'll tell you that my intent is to analyze what you believe to have been a "miracle" and see if what you describe can be labled as such. If you'd rather keep this private, feel free.

Fact is, I don't believe in "miracles" and I don't think you've ever witnessed one. I want to test my own opinion against your perceptions.

Keep in mind, these might not be classified as miracles to you...but to me, they are miracles in the fact that there is no way they should have happened, but they did.

Now I won't give examples of events that I have heard about from friends and family only because they wouldn't be events that I personally witnessed or experienced. Also not all miracles are witnessed, nor are they known to be miracles at the time they happened, but after later contemplation of the events, one realizes they were. I mean my first child was concieved despite my wife being on birth control. Never occured to me then, but now I see that as a miracle.

anyways....

I'm standing SOG one night on ship (Marines usually drew duty and had to stand watch while on Med floats) There was never anything happening whenever duty came, I mean who is going to steal a 6x6 truck or cargo trailer on a ship out at sea, right?

Anyways, I was gonna make my rounds when I have a sudden pain in my stomach, and I detour to the closest head (upstairs from the hallway I was in) and make a sitting head call to relieve this intestinal pain. After that I decided that I would take a short cut through another deck and head downstairs outside instead of the one I originally planned to come out on before the pain began.

Well, I stood in the small chamber that is lit with red light (to allow your eyes to become accustomed to the pitch black of night at sea) for less than a minute (normally your suppose to wait a bit longer) as I was running late on checking the posts, so out I went.

Once I get outside, I hear what sounded like screaming, but it was kinda muffled and I wasn't sure if I was just hearing things, so I hit the deck with my red-lensed flashlight, and saw two guys that had another sailor duct taped up, and his mouth was duct taped too. They had a floor buffer tied to his waist, and he (the victim) had already pissed himself as he knew he was a goner.

Anyways, I drew my .45 auto, called the OOD and arrested the two guys. It ends up the victim had gotten 2 weeks emergency leave (death of his parents) and went back stateside...he was given $5,000 by these two guys and another that wasn't there, (but later charged) to buy some drugs....and he spent the money instead of buying their drugs.

He figured once he got back stateside he'd be able file some hardship case paperwork and get out before he'd have to return to ship...or at the least get to stay stateside. The three guys charged were gonna make him disappear forever. Four idiots , yes...but a miracle that one of them is now alive, thanks to my having to take a dump, and alter my route. Had I not been forced to alter my route, this guy would have been murdered, and chances are the perps would have gotten away with it.

In December of '00 my business was in it's infant stages, and the money I had saved to pay the bills while the business grew was all but gone. We had given our last $200 to the church to bless a Mexican-American couple of which the husband had recently lost his job and was in greater need than I was.

Depsite the shortage of money I was experiencing, God touched my heart and told me to give the money to the chruch for that family.We prayed for God to bless our business financially. We were approximately $1,500 shy of paying the bills, rent, and I had the in-laws coming up to visit for Christmas.

We got a call from the local newspaper, and they said they wanted to do a story about my business (I have no idea how they knew we existed), well she does the interview, and says it's to run on the following Wednesday. It doesn't run...instead it ran on the Sunday after that Wednesday, and it reached more than the usual circulation as alot of people here receive the sunday edition only. I was flooded with phone calls after the article came out, and grossed over $2,500 that week, was able to pay all the bills, and even had some left to buy the in-laws gifts for Christmas.

In February '01, the snow storms that hit took it's toll as I was unable to earn enough to pay all the bills again. This time we were $400 shy of the $800 rent we owed. My wife and I prayed for financial blessing from God. a few days later, she and my oldest daughter were driving down the road crossing over I-26, when my daughter noticed a bill blowing across the street. My wife saw it too, and noticed it was bigger than a $1 bill, and pulled over to check it out. A quick search of the surrounding area netted 4 crisp $100 bills. The very amount we needed to pay the rent.

In June of '03 my wife and I were discussing saving more for our oldest daughter's college education. We had been sinking most of our savings back into the business, so we decided to make our family a priority for a while. Well, as it turned out, we had some mechanical problems with a few of the vehicles....so the plan was placed on hold.

A month later a guy from a financial planning office calls me, and says he wants to discuss the college savings account one of our older customers had set up for my oldest daughter.

This older woman, who was a good customer had since moved away, and my daughter who had befriended her continued to write her. This woman thought so much of my daughter spending time with her when she lived here, and her writing her when she moved away, she felt it was the least she could do for such a sweet child. She had put $2,500 in 4 seperate accounts...and as of last month it has already grown by $4,000. My daughter's first year of in state college is paid for.

Again, you might not call these miracles....and perhaps in the sense of Spider's brother surviving a nasty wreck like he did, maybe they aren't...but they are miraculous events to me.

[errand]

If you're going to make a condescending pun, get your facts straight. Mister Sinister is a comic book character, not cartoon.

...actually, like you, he's just a freaking clown. A clown that wears tights.

[wisconsinhomer]

religion sucks. thank god I'm getting confirmed this year.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Not to hijack the thread...
:threadjac
But would you mind detailing these "miracles" you've seen, errand? And not to ambush you I'll tell you that my intent is to analyze what you believe to have been a "miracle" and see if what you describe can be labled as such. If you'd rather keep this private, feel free.

Fact is, I don't believe in "miracles" and I don't think you've ever witnessed one. I want to test my own opinion against your perceptions.

I thought that I would bump this thread because there is some interesting subject matter in here.

I have had some miracles happen to me in my life that are unexplainable by science. Let me know if you would like to test your theory on my experience :)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

My Faith in Religion is turning .......

Same here.

I didn't take The Book of Revelations and all that stuff about the anti-Christ seriously.

Then along came George W. Bush and his "Christian" supporters...

[bronco_diesel]

Same here.

I didn't take The Book of Revelations and all that stuff about the anti-Christ seriously.

Then along came George W. Bush and his "Christian" supporters...

it's the book of Revelation (no s) - it is one revelation which is the full revelation of who Christ is.

if you care to study it with me, i could go into detail...it's been a passion of mine.

[Meck77]

I got one for you.

My Grandpa was recently in the hospital and not expected to live...in fact they gave him last rights...catholic hospital.

He had kidney failure, massive internal e-coli infection, pneumonia, and several other things. He has congestive heart failure and diabetis. He has also had several strokes and a pace maker. Basically...he was screwed.

The doctors were giving him a massive load of antibiotics to kill the e-coli and doing several other measures to take care of all his problems. My brother in law's sister is one of the top 5 doctors in the world with kidneys...she personally came from Duke or UNC I can't remember which and said that there is nothing to be done and it's only a matter of time before he dies (poisoned by his own blood). The couldn't perform surgery to have a kidney dialysis because there was no way he would survive...oh he wasn't breathing on his own. The anti-biotics weren't doing anything to stop or even slow the spread of the e-coli...my dad is a pharmacist and he said that the drugs they were giving him would kill a horse. I have two aunts that are nurses (my Grandpa's daughters actually), and both said that it was a matter of time.

To make him more comfortable, knowing there was nothing that could be done, they took him off all medications (except morphine) and life support. In two days he was completely healed...explain that.

The doctors said there was no reason why he should be alive. One came up and said he didn't believe in God but the the only explanation he could give was that there was divine intervention because there was no medical explanation. My brother in law's sister came back down and couldn't believe it herself (I think she came back to talk to the doctors but that's a different point).

That was a miracle and nothing you can say will ever change that. I have personal statements from professionals and one of the best kidney doctors in the world to rest my, and their, opinion on...some who don't even believe in God.


Most amazing hospital story I've ever heard. Got a link? Something like this had to make headline news in several cities or national news. Man certain of death walks away perfectly healthy? Almost too hard to believe.

I wish my friend Jason could experience this. He's barely able to keep his eyes open after his last bone marrow surgery. Doesn't seem fare to me that a 30 year old man should have to suffer for years like this.

[Rascal]

I dont have a link or anything , but while channel surfing , I caught a piece on MSNBC ..... Church of Christ , is saying that Jesus didnt turn anyone away , niether will they ......
Rev Kathrene Hawker . was explaining her and several other Christians take on Spongebob gate ......Props to MSNBC for giving the other Christians a voice on this ........ those that saw the Program saw that you dont have to become a Radical zealot to enjoy and worship their lord and savior .......
when the word Christians pop up I pictured zealots like Dr. Dobson , Errand , and Robb .........

Just wanted to add something to this...
The one I go to (there are 20+ something in the OKC area) the preacher has had several sermons on this in recent memory. Basically the message has been it doesn't matter how poor they are, what race, what sexual orientation, etc we should still accept them as a child of God and love them as he loves us. We may not agree with some of their choices, and consider it a sin, but since we are all sinners it's not our place to judge.

There has been such a taboo in a lot of your more traditional Christian churches that the public interpretation of it being a white heterosexual only club is often deserved.

To be honest it also depends on which Church of Christ you attend. Unlike the Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc each individual congregation is seperate and not subject to a chain of command. Each individual congregation has their set of leaders and they decide matters. Now all of them follow the same general principles about God and Jesus, but the diversification in a lot of the hot topics of today (homosexuality, women leading worship, etc) is widespread. You can have your strict traditional churches or you can have your moderate (some may even say radical) churches especially in the Bible belt.

[enjolras]

Most amazing hospital story I've ever heard. Got a link? Something like this had to make headline news in several cities or national news. Man certain of death walks away perfectly healthy? Almost too hard to believe.

I wish my friend Jason could experience this. He's barely able to keep his eyes open after his last bone marrow surgery. Doesn't seem fare to me that a 30 year old man should have to suffer for years like this.

Yet it is still not logically valid to say 'must have been healed by god'.

These miracles bring up all sorts of questions. My mom died of cancer.. she was an incredibly decent human being. Why didn't god take care of her? Is divine intervention purely random?

In most of these miracle cases its quite easy to formulate a theory (based on existing science) to explain it. One thing doctors will freely admit is that current medical science does not understand body chemistry terribly well. In particular we've been finding (with increasing intensity) that different bodies respond quite differently to the same therapies. It may have been in this case that the body chemistry changes brought on by the various drugs, respirators, and what not used actually caused the bodies natural defenses to work less effectively and thus removing them actually allowed the body to naturally fight off the failures that where occuring.

It is precisely this type of thinking that is giving rise to 'patient customized medicine' (of which stem cells are a very promising discipline). Oncologists are already quite familiar with this. They know that different patients respond quite differently to different chemo. treatments. Originally this was thought to be solely due to immune system resistances to certain chemicals. However, there is now widespread belief that body chemistry also plays a large role in this. In the cancer world the art of oncology has literally become figuring out which chemical cocktails to mix that optimize the treatment for individual patients (and it is very rare that the treatments are the same from patient to patient).

The point of all this is simple: It is POSSIBLE that a miracle recovery can be an act of god. I don't deny that. However, at one time almost everything was attributed to divine intervention (from diseases to volcanos). I think any educated Chrsitian, at this point, does not think god shakes the ground under San Francisco or sends hurricanes to flood New Orleans. Science most certainly has an explanation for those.

[Rohirrim]

it's the book of Revelation (no s) - it is one revelation which is the full revelation of who Christ is.

if you care to study it with me, i could go into detail...it's been a passion of mine.

Written by some lunatic monk stuck on some little Greek island a hundred years after Christ died. There are many who have had visions of all sorts. Some receive medication for their visions, some got their visions through medication. ???

[bronco_diesel]

Written by some lunatic monk stuck on some little Greek island a hundred years after Christ died. There are many who have had visions of all sorts. Some receive medication for their visions, some got their visions through medication. ???

so then, would you like to study with me, verse by verse?

[Mile High Shack]

Written by some lunatic monk stuck on some little Greek island a hundred years after Christ died. There are many who have had visions of all sorts. Some receive medication for their visions, some got their visions through medication. ???

apostle John was a lunatic?
and it was written over 100 years after christ's death

sorry

[enjolras]

apostle John was a lunatic?
and it was written over 100 years after christ's death

sorry

We have absolutely no idea who wrote revelations... beyond the fact that it was almost assuredly NOT the apostle John.

[bronco_diesel]

We have absolutely no idea who wrote revelations... beyond the fact that it was almost assuredly NOT the apostle John.

care to back that up?

[Rohirrim]

IMO the bible is like some cultural/religious vacuum cleaner; Everything it came across got sucked up in there and later generations have wasted years of their lives trying to put it all together and make some kind of sense out of it.

[Mile High Shack]

We have absolutely no idea who wrote revelations... beyond the fact that it was almost assuredly NOT the apostle John.

we've been over this before and you have no proof

and you are wrong

[bronco_diesel]

IMO the bible is like some cultural/religious vacuum cleaner; Everything it came across got sucked up in there and later generations have wasted years of their lives trying to put it all together and make some kind of sense out of it.

well, you are entitled to your opinion. however, if those people/generations are correct, they haven't wasted anything, but instead gained much. on the flip side, your like is the group who would have wasted their lives....

[BroncoInferno]

well, you are entitled to your opinion. however, if those people/generations that are correct, they haven't wasted anything, but instead gained much. on the flip side, your like is the group who would have wasted their lives.

What if one of the other hundreds of religions in the world is correct? Perhaps your 'group' has more to lose than you think.

[bronco_diesel]

What if one of the other hundreds of religions in the world is correct? Perhaps your 'group' has more to lose than you think.

we could go rounds over this. thats the big condumdrum isn't it? i would think that being the case, God would lead you to him. only christianity makes the claim of God becoming man and leading the way back to him.

i know many don't like that - and people don't like the idea of christianity being so exclusive...thats up to you...

[enjolras]

we've been over this before and you have no proof

and you are wrong

How open minded of you.

This is a two way street. Show me any kind of proof that St. John the Apostle wrote revelations.

For dispution http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html.

[BroncoInferno]

we've been over this before and you have no proof

and you are wrong

The burden of proof lies with the individual making the positive assertion. I can't prove the Bunny Rabbit didn't write Revelation either.

[Mile High Shack]

The burden of proof lies with the individual making the positive assertion. I can't prove the Bunny Rabbit didn't write Revelation either.

although in the beginning of the book it says

Verse 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.


so no

the burden of proof goes to the person trying to disprove it

[Mile High Shack]

How open minded of you.

This is a two way street. Show me any kind of proof that St. John the Apostle wrote revelations.

For dispution http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html.

vs 1 of the book of revelation

[BroncoInferno]

although in the beginning of the book it says

John..yadda yadda

so no

the burden of proof goes to the person trying to disprove it

What does the name at the beginning prove? Someone wanting to hand validity to the story could simply insert an influencial name at the beginning. That does not count as 'proof'.

[Rascal]

Sometimes those letters J O H N can be confusing.

[Rascal]

What does the name at the beginning prove? Someone wanting to hand validity to the stroy could simply insert an influencial name at the beginning. That does count as 'proof'.

How about you prove that?

[BroncoInferno]

How about you prove that?

Again, I don't have to prove a thing. You fellas are the ones wishing to positively assert the authorship of Revelation, not me.

[Mile High Shack]

Again, I don't have to prove a thing. You fellas are the ones wishing to positively assert the authorship of Revelation, not me.

no the proof is on the people who discredit it

the bible has been around for how long?

seems to me it has stood the test of time and critics

so no

the burden of proof is on the people who claim it is false, not the other way around

[bronco_diesel]

What does the name at the beginning prove? Someone wanting to hand validity to the story could simply insert an influencial name at the beginning. That does not count as 'proof'.

the book clearly states john. there is good reason to believe this is john the apostle. as MHS stated, it is your burden to prove this is not that john.

[Hogan11]

John Lennon wrote it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

John Lennon wrote it.
One of the greatest writers of all-time!

[Rascal]

Again, I don't have to prove a thing. You fellas are the ones wishing to positively assert the authorship of Revelation, not me.

Our proof is verse 1. It's your burden to prove that is incorrect.

[Rascal]

One of the greatest writers of all-time!

At least we can agree on this.

:thumbs:

[BroncoInferno]

Verse 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

Actually, the third person usage proves John did not personally write Revelation (unless he had the unseemly habit of modern day athletes of refering to himself in the third person). Someone claiming to have knowledge of the account wrote it. Who this individual was is not clear.

[BroncoInferno]

Our proof is verse 1. It's your burden to prove that is incorrect.

Obviously you guys were not on your high school debate team. Something asserted in writing is rarely considered sufficient proof of a claim.

[Rascal]

Actually, the third person usage proves John did not personally write Revelation (unless he had the unseemly habit of modern day athletes of refering to himself in the third person). Someone claiming to have knowledge of the account wrote it. Who this individual was is not clear.

Look at all his other books and see how it was written.

Something in writing isn't proof? So I guess then there is no evidence that Alexander the Great conquered the known world, etc, etc. It was all somebody's joke for future readers.

[BroncoInferno]

Look at all his other books and see how it was written.

Something in writing isn't proof? So I guess then there is no evidence that Alexander the Great conquered the known world, etc, etc. It was all somebody's joke for future readers.

Not one text alone. To address your Alexander example, we have dozens of accounts of his achievements, including accounts from conquered peoples who would have no reason to build up his reputation.

[bronco_diesel]

Actually, the third person usage proves John did not personally write Revelation (unless he had the unseemly habit of modern day athletes of refering to himself in the third person). Someone claiming to have knowledge of the account wrote it. Who this individual was is not clear.

you might want to look a little deeper into the writing:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[BroncoInferno]

you might want to look a little deeper into the writing:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

???

How does any of this prove John was the actual author of Revelation?

[W*GS]

Does the following:

http://72.22.74.110/BB/showpost.php?p=785717&postcount=1

qualify as a "miracle"?

[DB-Freak]

I dont have a link or anything , but while channel surfing , I caught a piece on MSNBC ..... Church of Christ , is saying that Jesus didnt turn anyone away , niether will they ......
Rev Kathrene Hawker . was explaining her and several other Christians take on Spongebob gate ......Props to MSNBC for giving the other Christians a voice on this ........ those that saw the Program saw that you dont have to become a Radical zealot to enjoy and worship their lord and savior .......
when the word Christians pop up I pictured zealots like Dr. Dobson , Errand , and Robb .........
That's great spider. I know those overzealous atheists who did the similar things by portraying every christian as zealots and stiffs.

Most of christians or people with religion, I can't notice if they have a religion until they confirm it themselves unlike those you just know by how they act and crap.

In fact practically everyone of my friends has a religion of some sort.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Does the following:

http://72.22.74.110/BB/showpost.php?p=785717&postcount=1

qualify as a "miracle"?


That's a toughie. If you were a high priest in pre-Christ Israel, you probably would qualify that as a miracle. I really dont know how to define that event except that God is unfathomable. He works good even from sin sometimes. A child born out of wedlock would also be categorized here.

[DB-Freak]

I wonder how many victims gambled to gain money.

[Rohirrim]

no the proof is on the people who discredit it

the bible has been around for how long?

seems to me it has stood the test of time and critics

so no

the burden of proof is on the people who claim it is false, not the other way around

If "time" is the criteria of acceptance, I suggest we all turn to the Rig Vedas which were written some time between 4.000 and 15,000 BCE. It is still the foundational scripture of Hinduism.

[bronco_diesel]

???

How does any of this prove John was the actual author of Revelation?

1) because the reference "i, john"
2) stating his location - on patmos

according to the testimony of the early church, the apostle john, was banished to the island patmos.

there is a good deal of evidence from early church fathers making quotes about john and his banishment to patmos along with his prophecy. it is widely recognized that the apostle john was banished to patmos and that he is the author of revelation.

[bronco_diesel]

Actually, the third person usage proves John did not personally write Revelation (unless he had the unseemly habit of modern day athletes of refering to himself in the third person). Someone claiming to have knowledge of the account wrote it. Who this individual was is not clear.

http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/revintro.html

AUTHOR: The writer gives his name as John (1:1, 4, 9; 22:8). We believe this John to be the same one who wrote the Gospel and the three Epistles. Tradition identifies him as John the Apostle, the son of Zebedee. Justin Martyr, a disciple of Polycarp, wrote about A.D. 140-160 that John the Apostle was the author of Revelation. This is strong early testimony for the authorship since Polycarp was himself a disciple of John. Justin’s information came from the man who knew the facts personally. It appears that the second century tradition unanimously favored John the Apostle as the author. Some of the grammatical and syntactical differences between Revelation and the other books attributed to John can be explained by the fact that John was living under unusual circumstances in exile on the island of Patmos. There was no one there to help John polish and smooth his Greek grammar. It was an urgent message that John had to communicate to the churches in Asia Minor who were undergoing persecution for their faith. Apparently, John wrote as the visions appeared to him, and without delay. On the other hand, the Gospel and epistles were written in a time when John had more leisure and with possible help of a secretary. Far less convincing is the hypothesis that another John, called "the elder," wrote these books.

it is on you to prove another john wrote it...

[BroncoInferno]

1) because the reference "i, john"
2) stating his location - on patmos

according to the testimony of the early church, the apostle john, was banished to the island patmos.

there is a good deal of evidence from early church fathers making quotes about john and his banishment to patmos along with his prophecy. it is widely recognized that the apostle john was banished to patmos and that he is the author of revelation.

Still doesn't really prove anything. Texts are manipulated all the time to suit all kinds of purposes.

Let me put it this way:

Some former Bush associates have written unseemly things about him--things he's supposedly said, things he's supposedly done. Now, do you just take these people at their word? No. You rightly expect some sort of reliable evidence to corroborate the claim, preferably from someone who has nothing to gain by doing so. There is really very little to corroborate that John was in the fact the author of Revelations. Now, for you, your faith is sufficient proof. For a skeptic, the necessary proof simply is not there.

Other Biblical claims do have the necessary evidence to support them, at least from an historical perspective. But that evidence do not exist here. As with my Bush example, the burden of proof lies with the individual making the claim, not the individual who refutes the claim.

[enjolras]

However early Christian tradition has given that it was written by John the Divine on patmos (not John the apostle). Thus, you have John.. and you have patmos.

[TheDave]

Is there any chance here that anyone would buy that i wrote it???

[ClevelandBronco2]

God wrote it. Which John recorded His words? I don't really care.

[Mile High Shack]

However early Christian tradition has given that it was written by John the Divine on patmos (not John the apostle). Thus, you have John.. and you have patmos.

simply put

no

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Is there any chance here that anyone would buy that i wrote it???

:laugh:

No - you don't seem like the kind of guy who would eat a fistful of peyote buttons and reach for the pen and ink. :D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If "time" is the criteria of acceptance, I suggest we all turn to the Rig Vedas which were written some time between 4.000 and 15,000 BCE. It is still the foundational scripture of Hinduism.

Some of the views of the universe, e.g., cosmologies, etc., expounded in the Vedas are more consistent with discoveries made by modern science than the Bible.