The Jake's not to blame thread...

[Taco John]

oh well sure.
we just didnt SCORE enough against kc, indy, or atlanta.
that must be it.
if the offense wouldve just played better, im sure that wouldve been enough to overcome the THIRTY FIVE first half points allowed against indy.
if the offense wouldve just spotted the defense a THREE touchdown lead at home against atlanta THEN maybe the defense wouldve not let vick cut through them like butter. :kiddingme

thats friggin ridiculous taco, even for you.



Whatever dude. It's not ridiculous at all. I've already proven that if the offense had executed the game plan, the score would have been much closer than it was and the Colts wouldn't have even had the opportunity to score 35 points.

Nobody is blaming Plummer for the defenses mistakes. Plenty of people are blaming Plummer for his own shortcomings, of which there seem to be no shortage of.

In the clutch stretch of the season, Plummer played so bad it wouldn't matter if the defense was nails.

[2KBack]

Orange,

If your offense had mounted a few drives and eaten up some clock, Indy's offense would not have scored five touchdowns.


I put a lot of blame on the playcalling in that one (which yes effected the offense), it was common knowledge that we needed to play smash mouth, run the ball offense, yet we came out passing. Shannahan out thought himsefl on that one.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Somehow I see this thread evolving into a bring back Griese thread. Everything must come full circle.

SSJ

[2KBack]

in reality it is still grieses fault

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I put a lot of blame on the playcalling in that one (which yes effected the offense), it was common knowledge that we needed to play smash mouth, run the ball offense, yet we came out passing. Shannahan out thought himsefl on that one.

Blame everyone but Jake....

[No1BroncoFan]

Orange,

If your offense had mounted a few drives and eaten up some clock, Indy's offense would not have scored five touchdowns.
TJ,
Your argument makes sense to this fool. That should tell you something!

Ben

[2KBack]

Blame everyone but Jake....


Nope, just blame everyone.

[Taco John]

Orange,

If your offense had mounted a few drives and eaten up some clock, Indy's offense would not have scored five touchdowns.



Of course not. He just wants to blame the defense for Jake's inability to make something happen for us.

Sorry Jake, but your arguments reek of homerism. Especially this:

as the defense can get the job done.
early in the year they did. late they did not, and you saw the effects of that on BOTH units.


You just blamed the Defense for the offenses problems... And then turn around and whined that people are blaming Jake for the defenses problems.

In reality, Jake has enough problems of his own that there is no need to blame him for the defenses problems.

True. Jake struggles throwing the ball from the pocket. This is undeniable and has been a problem with his game throughout his career.

True. Jake struggles with decision making with the ball in his hand, and Shanahan has commented that he needs to limit Jake's decision making.

True. Jake is the current NFL career leader in interceptions, and did what he could to keep it that way this season by leading the league in throwing them for another year in his career.

True. Jake had a near 60 point drop off in quarterback rating from November to December.

True. Jake struggles with accuracy, leading to consistently tipped and even dropped passes.


That's five legitimate issues with Jake's game, and not a single one of them has anything to do with the defense.

You would have a point if Jake was executing, and people were complaining about him. If Jake were executing, and people had anything to say about Jake, I'd be right there with you, defending him. But that's not the case.

[Taco John]

TJ,
Your argument makes sense to this fool. That should tell you something!

Ben



It does. It tells me that I'm not being a homer about it.

[No1BroncoFan]

Jake is not the biggest problem on this team. We need help on the D-line and in our runnign game way ahead of Plummer. Is he God's gift to football? No. Is he serviceable? Yes. Let's get a pass rush, some red-zone rushing (I'm hoping Bell is the answer there) and a decent backup QB (Kanny Danny is not a decent backup) and things will greatly improve, AFC Championship at least.

If you really think there's anyone out there that will challenge Jake for the starting spot (aside from an unknown rookie ala Brady) you're swiggin' from the same bottle as Bob!

Ben

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Why can't Garcia challenge Jake? Essentially he's the same QB with a weaker arm but a better noggin.

Too bad Walter Jones is off the market...I think he would have helped.

Uh, I mean...thank God the Seahawks resigned him.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

TJ,
Your argument makes sense to this fool. That should tell you something!

Ben

Just because I hate the Broncos doesn't mean I don't know football.

[2KBack]

If you hate the Broncos, then you just don't know good football

[No1BroncoFan]

Just because I hate the Broncos doesn't mean I don't know football.
But, your football takes give lie to that statement. Sorry Bob, but anyone who thinks the Indy game was Jakes fault simply wasn't watching the game. Jake's not perfect, but our defense never showed up.

This whole freakin' team fell apart down the stretch. Did Plummer play like he was back in Arizona, trying to do it all himself? Yep, he sure did. Thing is, with a few exceptions, the team around him was playing like the Cards as well.

Jake deserves a fair measure of blame, but to hang all our offensive troubles on him is a joke. Give this team a pass rush and some success running the ball in the red-zone and it'll go deep in the playoffs next year. Leave all things equal and put God under center and we still get bounced in the first round, if we even make the playoffs.

Ben

[Bob's your Information Minister]

But, your football takes give lie to that statement. Sorry Bob, but anyone who thinks the Indy game was Jakes fault simply wasn't watching the game. Jake's not perfect, but our defense never showed up.

I never said it was completely his fault.

But he's not getting the job done, that much is clear.

SOMEONE is to blame on offense when a team farts around on offense for an entire half against one of the worst defenses in the league. The QB is responsible for his fair share of that blame.

And it's not just the Indy game. Plummer played like ass down the stretch.

[No1BroncoFan]

I never said it was completely his fault.

But he's not getting the job done, that much is clear.
I agree that Jake did not play his best football this season, especially down the stretch. Part of it is on him, part of it is on Shanahan and the predictable game plans. Defenses around the league must lick their chops when they see us on their schedules.


SOMEONE is to blame on offense when a team farts around on offense for an entire half against one of the worst defenses in the league. The QB is responsible for his fair share of that blame.
No points for you for reading comprehension (not that I expected you to earn any). Didn't I say Jake deserves his fair share of the blame? But, Shanny and Co. need to shoulder theirs as well.


And it's not just the Indy game. Plummer played like ass down the stretch.
See above about reading comprehension... (if the words I'm using are too big, let me know... or maybe Spider can translate it for you...)
We have glaring weaknesses on this team. Plummer is not one of the glaring ones. Could we have a better QB? Sure. Do we need D-line help far more? Definately. Pass rush and getting some success in the red-zone run game are far higher on the list than QB. I'd take a big bruising full back over a new quarterback in a heartbeat.

Ben

[Odysseus]

I hate Jake's giving up the ball and don't excuse it. I hate even more running backs who put the ball on the carpet, can't get first downs, or fall at the hint of being tackled. I dislike WR who can't catch. Jake is a problem but one problem.

How is it our defense is so highly rated when we don't lead the league in takeovers, stops, turnovers, sacks, hurries or tackles? What are we leading the league in? Making QB's get bored waiting to connect to recievers?

Special teams gives it up faster than a French Whore.

Jake is the natural lightning rod for all the teams problems. It's why he gets paid the big bucks. I am eager to see what they pull together next year.

[errand]

You were sure pinning the plame on Jake for the Indy loss. The defense played like sh*t yet, according to you, it was Jake who let them down. ???

Ben

TJ evidently forgot his huge "offense is the best defense' thread

[Jason in LA]

You're comparing the efforts of 1 guy to 11 guys. That doesn't sound right.

That's what Orange 4 Life is doing. He's the one that brought it up, so tell that to him.

[Jason in LA]

I put a lot of blame on the playcalling in that one (which yes effected the offense), it was common knowledge that we needed to play smash mouth, run the ball offense, yet we came out passing. Shannahan out thought himsefl on that one.

That's not really true. On the Broncos first drive they had 5 plays, 3 of them runs. That drive stalled when Plummer couldn't convert a 3rd and 3. On the second drive, which was a 3 and out, they ran the ball twice. The one pass was an incomplete by Plummer. When they got the ball the third time, they were down 14-0 and Plummer got picked off.

[Jason in LA]

in reality it is still grieses fault

That's one thing we can all agree on.

[2KBack]

That's not really true. On the Broncos first drive they had 5 plays, 3 of them runs. That drive stalled when Plummer couldn't convert a 3rd and 3. On the second drive, which was a 3 and out, they ran the ball twice. The one pass was an incomplete by Plummer. When they got the ball the third time, they were down 14-0 and Plummer got picked off.


You got me there. I just remember thinking "why are we passing," followed closely by "what year is this?"

[Bob's your Information Minister]

We have glaring weaknesses on this team. Plummer is not one of the glaring ones.

Leading the league in interceptions is pretty glaring.

[2KBack]

Leading the league in interceptions is pretty glaring.


But he was also 7th in TD passes, that ratio means something too.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

But he was also 7th in TD passes, that ratio means something too.

I think Taco's gone over that before...all the passing totals were up this year because of the new rule. The fact that Plummer's completion percentage went down and picks went up despite the new rules should be concerning to Bronco fans.

[errand]

Can anyone tell me which players the Broncos are looking to draft, or sign as FA's?

Surely if Jake is a big problem, Mike will address it this off season, right? I mean if Mike drafts a DT, or DE, and aLB or DB or two, and doesn't use even a 7th rounder on a QB....and if the majority of FA's are defensive guys, wouldn't that lend credence that he believes the D was the problem?

Look at '03 playoff loss. Jake played worse in that game than he did this past playoff game, and what does mike do? He trades a 1,500 yard rusher for a cover corner, and signs an enforcer (Lynch) to roam the secondary...because he realized you don't give up 41 points in the playoffs if your D is any good.

I'm thinking this draft and free agency period will tell us what Mike believes the problem is with the Broncos.................

[2KBack]

I think Taco's gone over that before...all the passing totals were up this year because of the new rule. The fact that Plummer's completion percentage went down and picks went up despite the new rules should be concerning to Bronco fans.
500 attempts Vs. 300 attempts, he had to chuck the ball around alot. If we were more consistant as a team I think the numbers would equal out a bit.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the picks aren't a problem, I just think it isn't the #1 problem.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

500 attempts Vs. 300 attempts, he had to chuck the ball around alot. If we were more consistant as a team I think the numbers would equal out a bit.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the picks aren't a problem, I just think it isn't the #1 problem.

Plummer would have had close to 500 attempts if he hadn't been hurt last year.

[2KBack]

Plummer would have had close to 500 attempts if he hadn't been hurt last year.
No way, he would have had to have at least 50 attempts per game for those 4 games, we're not the rams.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

No way, he would have had to have at least 50 attempts per game for those 4 games, we're not the rams.

I said "almost."

More attempts isn't an excuse, anyway. Especially when it comes to completion percentage. You'd have a point if his interception % hadn't been inflated.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Hmmm, interesting. Everytime Plummer has had at least 475 attempts in a season, he's thrown at least 20 interceptions (except once, his "career year").

[2KBack]

What I'm saying is that we throw too much. We've always known that Jake can be erratic, but he was supposed to work in our system because of our running game. We still have good yard numbers, but we don't impose our will on the opponents and wear them down anymore. To return to glory, we have to return to a dominant run game, that's what got us there before, and it's what we need to get there again. I think Jake can do it, if we help him out a bit.

on a side not, Quietiger mentioned this before, but we need a major special teams overhaul too, and I think that is a bigger priority than jake too.

[Taco John]

These are the same excuses that were made for Griese... Just a different cast making them. If Jake plays like he did again this season, it will be the same result too. If we don't have someone in here who can pick up the pieces from there, we'll be forced into the market with a gun to our heads, and just have to pick-up whoever is available. And that's aside from all the dead money Plummer would represent. We'd be basically making the same mistake twice.

Maybe Shanahan is going 'all in' on Plummer. I guess we'll see.

[KillerBronco#76]

I just cant wait for next season when i can laugh my ass off about what you guys are sayin im willing to put money on that plummer does better than his first year next year. Itll be fun to hear form all the people that dought him after next season. Plummer isnt griese and he's deffinatley not elway but he can be a damn good quarterback. I dont see how you guys dont have confidence in him but im not even worried after next year every one will have confidence in him. Dont give me that crap about you would like it if he did great next season your either behind him or not.

[broncoblue]

has jake had a new deal sorted out because ive been told he has but ive not been online much these last couple of weeks..

[KillerBronco#76]

yea he restructured

[Odysseus]

These are the same excuses that were made for Griese... Just a different cast making them. If Jake plays like he did again this season, it will be the same result too. If we don't have someone in here who can pick up the pieces from there, we'll be forced into the market with a gun to our heads, and just have to pick-up whoever is available. And that's aside from all the dead money Plummer would represent. We'd be basically making the same mistake twice.

Maybe Shanahan is going 'all in' on Plummer. I guess we'll see.

The reason there is a different cast of supporters is they see different things in these quarterbacks. I was never a Griese supporter. I'm high on Jake even though I think he's a meat head because they guy just plays football. Name a quarterback in the NFL who can win it alone? None of them.

It sounds more like you are heart broken over Griese being tossed than upset about a quarterback who played out of his element last year. All the offense had on the books last year was Jake and he failed. He didn't fail because he isn't a good player. He failed because Shanahan asked too much from him.

Grieise is doing well in Tampa Bay. It's you who are advocating making the same mistake.

[No1BroncoFan]

Leading the league in interceptions is pretty glaring.
That's right, Bob. Ignore the other points I made and still try to tell everyone you don't think Plummer is the only one to blame. ::)

Ben

[No1BroncoFan]

What I'm saying is that we throw too much. We've always known that Jake can be erratic, but he was supposed to work in our system because of our running game. We still have good yard numbers, but we don't impose our will on the opponents and wear them down anymore. To return to glory, we have to return to a dominant run game, that's what got us there before, and it's what we need to get there again. I think Jake can do it, if we help him out a bit.

on a side not, Quietiger mentioned this before, but we need a major special teams overhaul too, and I think that is a bigger priority than jake too.
Since Portis first started, we've had good rushing numbers, but not effective running. I'd rather have 25 attempt for 100 yards with a long of eight than 20 attempts for 130 with a long of eighty. I'm really hoping Bell can be a Davis type back (don't even think I'm saying he'll be as good). A threat to take it to the house on any play, but also getting positive yardage on 95% of his touches. We haven't had that kind of running in a long time.

How often did we try to convert short third-downs by passing when Terrell was around? How often are often are we doing it now?

Give me a bruising FB over "competition" for Jake any day!

Ben

[broncoblue]

yea he restructured



any links or details? :kiddingme

[Odysseus]

any links or details? :kiddingme


http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E86%257E,00.html

[broncoblue]

thanks.....Ah well I can still wear my jake jersey ;)

[Bob's your Information Minister]

These are the same excuses that were made for Griese... Just a different cast making them.

That's absolutely right. Plummer is the same kind of QB as Griese, only more exciting to watch. When the chips are down, he can't get it done...that's what soured you all on Griese.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I'm really hoping Bell can be a Davis type back

Early returns on that don't look promising. He appears to be a Portis-clone.

Droughns is closer to a TD-type back.

I wonder if Mike Anderson's gonna be the same back next year.

[Jason in LA]

But he was also 7th in TD passes, that ratio means something too.

When I think of a good TD/INT ratio I think of it being at least 2:1. Plummer wasn't that.

[Jason in LA]

I just cant wait for next season when i can laugh my ass off about what you guys are sayin im willing to put money on that plummer does better than his first year next year. Itll be fun to hear form all the people that dought him after next season. Plummer isnt griese and he's deffinatley not elway but he can be a damn good quarterback. I dont see how you guys dont have confidence in him but im not even worried after next year every one will have confidence in him. Dont give me that crap about you would like it if he did great next season your either behind him or not.

You won't have any "I told you so" for anybody in this thread. Nobody in this thread has said dump Plummer. Some want a backup plan, some want competition. But nobody wants Plummer to be dumped out right. I want him to go into the season as the starter. He's shown that he can do well in this system ('03). But if he plays like he did in '04, that backup plan might be needed.

[Jason in LA]

Early returns on that don't look promising. He appears to be a Portis-clone.

Droughns is closer to a TD-type back.

I wonder if Mike Anderson's gonna be the same back next year.

I have to disagree with you there. Portis was an all or nothing back. Big run, or he'd get stuffed. Bell hasn't really been like that. I'd say Bell is more like TD than Portis, and more like TD than RD is. RD is more like Mike Anderson. He gets the tough yards, but isn't much of a threat to run a long one. Bell can get the tough yards and break the long ones. We'll have to wait and see if he can do it like TD though.

[2KBack]

I have to disagree with you there. Portis was an all or nothing back. Big run, or he'd get stuffed. Bell hasn't really been like that. I'd say Bell is more like TD than Portis, and more like TD than RD is. RD is more like Mike Anderson. He gets the tough yards, but isn't much of a threat to run a long one. Bell can get the tough yards and break the long ones. We'll have to wait and see if he can do it like TD though.
RD is a try to muscle through you guy, not much wiggle. TD was tough, but he was all about the angles, he would cut in a way that a defender could never get more than an arm on him, and that was never enough to stop him. Bell hits the hole faster than anyone we've had since TD, if he stays focused I think he could be the next best thing.

[KillerBronco#76]

pretty much what im saying is im at the point where im confident where we dont need a back-up plan jake is the type of player that will put everything on the line and yes he may make the bad throw if he thinks theres a chance of making it. but i gues im may be getting carried away cause i just love the type of player that will let it all hang out and go for it take chances i dont want a god damn robot at quarterback who wont take chances and always makes the safe throw. I respect the fact the guy is willing to take criticism about a bad throw and that he can get pissed and people yelling at him and get emotional about it. I like the personality the broncos have on their team. It makes them more fun to watch too. We have character on this team thats whats great about them.

[orange 4 life]

Nobody ever said that Plummer didn't do anything good.

oh never right?

you just FOCUS on the ONE issue he had, which was turnovers.
you ALSO ignore the hows and whys of those turnovers, and ASSUME they must be a result of decreased efficiency from plummer, which of course, isnt the case.
watch the film from '03 and '04. fact is, plummer threw the ball much better in '04, and made (by and large) better decisions too.

keep the blinders on. whatever floats the taco jason boat.

[2KBack]

pretty much what im saying is im at the point where im confident where we dont need a back-up plan jake is the type of player that will put everything on the line and yes he may make the bad throw if he thinks theres a chance of making it. but i gues im may be getting carried away cause i just love the type of player that will let it all hang out and go for it take chances i dont want a god damn robot at quarterback who wont take chances and always makes the safe throw. I respect the fact the guy is willing to take criticism about a bad throw and that he can get pissed and people yelling at him and get emotional about it. I like the personality the broncos have on their team. It makes them more fun to watch too. We have character on this team thats whats great about them.

I think most of us would prefer not to have "gives games away" as a part of our team character. Keeping opponents in games is not fun to watch to me. As a bronco fan, the mst fun game to watch is a 50-3 victory.

[orange 4 life]

Orange,

If your offense had mounted a few drives and eaten up some clock, Indy's offense would not have scored five touchdowns.

oh bullsh!t, and you of ALL people should know that.

remember the '03 kc/indy matchup? i do.
wanna tell me that if trent and co. had just played a little better then indy wouldnt have won?
wanna tell me you expected PERFECTION from your offense to account for the GOD awful defense you played? :kiddingme

come on pal.
your offense was GREAT in that game, and it was STILL a loss.
how many points did indy score DESPITE your offense being prolific in that game? yeah, thats what i thought.
our defense was so ***cing horrible that day it didnt make a sh!t bit of difference what the offense did.

dont tell me youre a part of the electric taco jason kool aid acid tests also?

jake

[orange 4 life]

Of course not. He just wants to blame the defense for Jake's inability to make something happen for us.

Sorry Jake, but your arguments reek of homerism.

oh God book 61.

here we go again with the "homer" sh!t.
i swear that word is like nails on a blackboard (and whoever thinks to type it over and over as a joke, you can not)

ummm, blaming the QUARTERBACK for a defense who gave up THIRTY FIVE points in a HALF is somehow being a smart educated fan, but blaming that defense is "homer"?

hows that working?

as for the rest, the TEAMS problems STARTED with defense, and they trickled right down to the offense. if you cant see that, thats your issue.
look, no one is saying plummer is perfect, but i am saying that there's alot more than meets the eye, and all you want to do is harp on the int totals and a meaningless stat (qb rating).

look at WHY those things happened!!!

plummer didnt play his best in a few games down the stretch, and in two of them (atlanta and kc) the defense was so GOD awful it didnt really matter. still, against atlanta, he almost brought us back, and had watts been able to catch the easy td, he may have.
against san diego, he ALSO didnt play his best, but my God, watch the film again. he wasnt awful. he made one awful pass (to a double covered rod), and one awful (just how awful is debatable) decision.
yes, those contributed to the loss.
there's the one game where plummer was a big part of why we lost, and he WASNT THAT BAD!
he DIDNT give up, and he DID get us in position to win that one too until watts dropped another one (on the final drive).

yes, the offense struggled down the stretch INDEPENDANTLY of the defense, and i ALREADY adressed that ALSO!!
did you miss that or are you just ignoring it?
our offense tried to do the EXACT same things they did earlier in the year, and like years past (whether griese or plummer was at the helm), our in game and midseason adjustments were ALSO a BIG part of our failure.
is the reason we have poor third quarter performances the last SIX years jake's fault? even though he's only been with us TWO years?
no, the reason is that as good of a gameplanner as shanny is, he needs help making halftime adjustments.

bottom line is when plummer plays poorly, i say so.
he HAS played poorly, and he has been a factor in losses.....but not very often.
by and large, he's been damn good.

jake

[Bob's your Information Minister]

oh bullsh!t, and you of ALL people should know that.

remember the '03 kc/indy matchup? i do.
wanna tell me that if trent and co. had just played a little better then indy wouldnt have won?
wanna tell me you expected PERFECTION from your offense to account for the GOD awful defense you played? :kiddingme

come on pal.
your offense was GREAT in that game, and it was STILL a loss.
how many points did indy score DESPITE your offense being prolific in that game? yeah, thats what i thought.
our defense was so ***cing horrible that day it didnt make a sh!t bit of difference what the offense did.

dont tell me youre a part of the electric taco jason kool aid acid tests also?

jake


Apples and Oranges

We had to perfect because Indy's offense was perfect.

Indy's offense was NOT perfect in your playoff game. They gave Denver a chance to get back in the football game.

It's interesting that you brought that game up, because there's an eerily similar situation.

KC was down 14-3 before they mounted their first TD drive and got back in the game.

Denver was down 14-0 and had a shot to get back in the game...instead your O fell flat on its face.

I guess you think that wasn't the QBs fault, though.

[Circle Orange]

Hell, let's just run this thread straight through to the preseason...:puff:

[orange 4 life]

But, your football takes give lie to that statement. Sorry Bob, but anyone who thinks the Indy game was Jakes fault simply wasn't watching the game. Jake's not perfect, but our defense never showed up.

This whole freakin' team fell apart down the stretch. Did Plummer play like he was back in Arizona, trying to do it all himself? Yep, he sure did. Thing is, with a few exceptions, the team around him was playing like the Cards as well.

Jake deserves a fair measure of blame, but to hang all our offensive troubles on him is a joke. Give this team a pass rush and some success running the ball in the red-zone and it'll go deep in the playoffs next year. Leave all things equal and put God under center and we still get bounced in the first round, if we even make the playoffs.

Ben

great post. worth being moved up.

[orange 4 life]

Apples and Oranges

We had to perfect because Indy's offense was perfect.

Indy's offense was NOT perfect in your playoff game. They gave Denver a chance to get back in the football game.

It's interesting that you brought that game up, because there's an eerily similar situation.

KC was down 14-3 before they mounted their first TD drive and got back in the game.

Denver was down 14-0 and had a shot to get back in the game...instead your O fell flat on its face.

I guess you think that wasn't the QBs fault, though.

their offense wasnt perfect dipsh!t?

why, because we got ONE lucky turnover in the endzone?
what do you call 35 points in a half?
even if our offense had played VERY well, they wouldve scored 28 anyway.
they scored fast, and they scored EASILY. hell, at least your defense slowed them down a bit.
unbelievable.

..and incidentally, after the turnover, we got stuffed on a third down RUN.
i suppose youre going to tell me that IS the qb's fault?

keep drinking the taco jason kool aid.

taco, jason, and now bob.
at least you three see eye to eye, because no one else has any clue where youre coming from.

jake

[Bob's your Information Minister]

They also punted on their first posession.

That's two opportunities your offense had. THEY BLEW IT.

[orange 4 life]

They also punted on their first posession.

That's two opportunities your offense had. THEY BLEW IT.

is that two WHOLE opportunities? :unamused:

[Odysseus]

Hell, let's just run this thread straight through to the preseason...:puff:

That would be impressive! Why don't we have a betting pool? They ought to fire up VBookie just for this kind of stuff.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

is that two WHOLE opportunities? :unamused:

In the NFL, every opportunity counts. The Chiefs offense got zero support from their defense that day but managed to at least make a game of it.

[Jason in LA]

oh never right?

you just FOCUS on the ONE issue he had, which was turnovers.
you ALSO ignore the hows and whys of those turnovers, and ASSUME they must be a result of decreased efficiency from plummer, which of course, isnt the case.
watch the film from '03 and '04. fact is, plummer threw the ball much better in '04, and made (by and large) better decisions too.

keep the blinders on. whatever floats the taco jason boat.

The last time you said that I only focus on the turnovers, I pointed out that I have mentioned his completion percentage a number of times. Why can't you understand that? 43% against the Bucs. 40% against the Chargers. And he didn't turn the ball over against the Bucs, so you can't say that I only focus on turnovers. Please read what I post.

I would say the bulk of his turnovers were his fault. There were probably a few that weren't, but you act like he's been victimized by poor receivers. Most of the tipped passes that were picked off were Plummer's fault. You say that I haven't looked at the reasons for those picks. That's BS. I've mentioned a number of them. You just don't like what I have to say.

You are the one with the blinders on. You know what his short comings are, but you act as if they aren't a problem.

[Odysseus]

The reason there is a different cast of supporters is they see different things in these quarterbacks. I was never a Griese supporter. I'm high on Jake even though I think he's a meat head because they guy just plays football. Name a quarterback in the NFL who can win it alone? None of them.

It sounds more like you are heart broken over Griese being tossed than upset about a quarterback who played out of his element last year. All the offense had on the books last year was Jake and he failed. He didn't fail because he isn't a good player. He failed because Shanahan asked too much from him.

Grieise is doing well in Tampa Bay. It's you who are advocating making the same mistake.


I hate Jake's giving up the ball and don't excuse it. I hate even more running backs who put the ball on the carpet, can't get first downs, or fall at the hint of being tackled. I dislike WR who can't catch. Jake is a problem but one problem.

How is it our defense is so highly rated when we don't lead the league in takeovers, stops, turnovers, sacks, hurries or tackles? What are we leading the league in? Making QB's get bored waiting to connect to recievers?

Special teams gives it up faster than a French Whore.

Jake is the natural lightning rod for all the teams problems. It's why he gets paid the big bucks. I am eager to see what they pull together next year.

[Odysseus]

If you can't score consistently, of course you are going to be consistently playing from behind.

3 points = bad
7 points = good

I think the Broncos did well last year despite carrying over some stupid tendencys from the year before, changing running backs like socks, Jake's melt down, special teams collapsing, and the highly rated defense available only to burn the clock.

I think it's interesting that folks are wondering why this team didn't go 13-3 when in fact you could argue a case for the Broncos going 8-8 just as easily. Taco has ever right to be disgruntled but I still say they did alright considering.

[Jason in LA]

as for the rest, the TEAMS problems STARTED with defense, and they trickled right down to the offense. if you cant see that, thats your issue.
look, no one is saying plummer is perfect, but i am saying that there's alot more than meets the eye, and all you want to do is harp on the int totals and a meaningless stat (qb rating).



jake

Are you serious?!?! The defense carried the team much more than the offense did. There were games where the offense was a no show (mostly Plummer), and the D went out and won the game. How many games were there where the D was a no show, but the O went out and won the game? None.

Why do you blame everybody on the team except Plummer? No, it wasn't his fault that he played bad with the Cards. He didn't have the talent. Now that he has the talent, it's still not his fault. It's the defenses fault, it's poor WRs. It's RBs that can't run. It's a coach that calls bad plays. It's never Plummer's fault.

I got news for you, Plummer is far from a great QB. He's not a top 5 QB in the league. Some could argue he's not even a top 10 QB, and it would be hard to argue against that. His problems are mostly his own fault. He's not to blame for all of the Broncos' problems, but he is a part of the problem. Plummer has to be accountible for his own problems.

Orange 4 Life, I'm starting to think you have a man crush on Plummer. You can find nothing wrong with the guy, even though he is always amoung the league leaders in ints. Wake up man.

[FADERPROOF]

This thread needs to go to the horses butt, seriously.

[Odysseus]

This thread needs to go to the horses butt, seriously.

Just because it's not about Hockey being dead, Nascar, or UNC? Dude!

Let this poor worn out thread just die in peace. Don't post and it will choke on it's on lack of steam. You just want to wreck my fun don't you.

No REP for you!

[FADERPROOF]

Just because it's not about Hockey being dead, Nascar, or UNC? Dude!

Let this poor worn out thread just die in peace. Don't post and it will choke on it's on lack of steam. You just want to wreck my fun don't you.

No REP for you!

How about because for the last 50 damn pages it's been everyone going around in circles in what they believe in? There comes a point in time to just say "whatever" and move on, the redundancy of this thread is rather humorous.

These people think we need a new QB, these other people think we don't, and it's continued on somehow, it's time for it to die , something that it's never going to do as long as it's on the main forum.

[Odysseus]

[QUOTE=DenFan38]the redundancy of this thread is rather humorous./QUOTE]

Exactly.

Instead of trying to do the obvious why don't you think about it. Throw some links to ads in the thread. Whose going to know. Nobody is reading the other's posts anyway? Doesn't post count help the board? Are people checking in on the thread and shaking there head? That does mean they are checking in right? It's like an online Bronco version of Jerry Springer only cleaner....so far.

Don't be a wuss. Pulling Mod rank on a beat to death thread is weak. Nobody is posting to this thing right now but you and me. It's offseason. It's the last thread of the season. Let it die on it's own.

Right now this thread is devolving to just Jason and Orange battling it out. If they start throwing around foul language then kill it but as long as they are within the normal realm of stupidity let em roll. Didn't they teach you that in Mod school? (Uh Oh! The wrath of Taco has been summoned. Peace out!)

[2KBack]

How about because for the last 50 damn pages it's been everyone going around in circles in what they believe in? There comes a point in time to just say "whatever" and move on, the redundancy of this thread is rather humorous.

These people think we need a new QB, these other people think we don't, and it's continued on somehow, it's time for it to die , something that it's never going to do as long as it's on the main forum.

I'm pretty sure that this debate is going to continue into next season, and I'm fine with that. I'm more than willing to argue both sides, if it will give me something bronco related to talk about during the long football free days of the offseason.

[KillerBronco#76]

I think this threads been gettin more posts latley because there hasnt been too much else to talk about

[errand]

Orange 4 Life, I'm starting to think you have a man crush on Plummer. You can find nothing wrong with the guy, even though he is always amoung the league leaders in ints. Wake up man.

Kind of like the man-crush clowns like you had on Griese? You guys went years defending him...and he's on his 2nd team in 2 years since leaving Denver.

Nobody said Jake doesn't need to cut down on his INT's.....but you guys think he only QB's this team, when the truth is he leads this team. You can always draft or sign a QB....but finding a leader is another thing. they are not that common.

Sure Jake is one of the NFL leaders in INT's.....but he's won just as many if not more games over the last two years than some of those top 10 QB's you talk about.....and that my friend is the bottom line.

Look at it in terms of a stock.....sure it has peaks and valleys...but in the end it gave you a positive return on your investment. Not the millions you hope for, but a nice return none the less.

And who knows perhaps this is the year it delivers that big return for you...and guess what'll happen when you try to climb back on the bandwagon.....yep, this thread will come back to haunt you worse than TJ's infamous "No, wait, I know....when given protection, Brian Griese is the NFL's most efficient QB - bar none" statement.

I mean most fans wouldn't put Jake in the same class as Green when it comes to QBing skills, but who was watching who play in a wildcard game this year?

People on here want Drew Brees.....but he too has had an up-down career, and he hasn't won a playoff game either, so where's the logic in that? Not to mention if you thought alot of Jake's passes got batted down, what do you think will happen when the 6'0'' Brees comes in?

Jeff Garcia has been mentioned as a back-up plan...and he just got released by a team that needs a QB more than we do. Just like Couch before him, who was rumored to be Farve's heir, I have to ask - shouldn't he have to beat out Kelly Holcombe first before we expect him to come in and beat out Plummer?

I remember all of those who supported Griese saying that they trusted Mike's opinion more than those who wanted Griese gone...and yet now, we're to believe all of a sudden Mike doesn't know a QB and a leader when he sees one? Mike was such a great evaluator of QB talent they said...and now he's a nincompoop? If that's the case then you guys need to rethink your "Mike knows best" line of thinking.

If as you guys claim, Jake's a mistake, then perhaps we need to look at Mike Shanahan (who I think is a very good coach) as yet another Broncos head coach that just road the coattails of John Elway, because he, like the other coaches before him, seemed alot smarter when Elway was here.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I mean most fans wouldn't put Jake in the same class as Green when it comes to QBing skills, but who was watching who play in a wildcard game this year?


Defense, fool.

[Jason in LA]

Kind of like the man-crush clowns like you had on Griese? You guys went years defending him...and he's on his 2nd team in 2 years since leaving Denver.



You need to get your facts straight. I was not a Griese supporter in any way. I was ready for that guy to hit the road after they beat the Rams at Mile High to open the '02 season. He almost choked the game away. That was the turning point for me. That's when I jumped off the bandwagon. I was all for Beuerlein to step in at that point.

At this point, I haven't completely turned on Plummer. I wanted Griese benched, and cut. I don't want Plummer benched. I just want a backup plan if he keeps being so inconsistant.

Plummer fits the system, so I'm willing to give him more chances than Griese. Plummer has a chance of doing well in Denver. Griese did not.

[Jason in LA]

And who knows perhaps this is the year it delivers that big return for you...and guess what'll happen when you try to climb back on the bandwagon.....yep, this thread will come back to haunt you worse than TJ's infamous "No, wait, I know....when given protection, Brian Griese is the NFL's most efficient QB - bar none" statement.



That's where you are wrong. Have I ever said that Plummer can't do the job, or that I didn't want him as the starter? I have said many times that I want Jake to do well. I will be rooting for him to do well. Just because I want a backup plan doesn't mean I don't support the guy. If I had the same opinion as I had with Griese, who I wanted out, then you would have a point. But that's not the case with Plummer. So you can save your "I told you so" for the people that started the "Plummer Sucks" threads. Those were the Plummer bashers. Sorry, I'm not one of them.

[2KBack]

Guys like Jason in LA and Quietiger aren't Plummer bashing. There are guys who simply just hate on him, but these guys are merely voicing a concern and considering viable back-up plans. It's not like we all aren't thinking the same things anyway, plummer fan or not, no one here wants a repeat of this season.

[Jason in LA]

Guys like Jason in LA and Quietiger aren't Plummer bashing. There are guys who simply just hate on him, but these guys are merely voicing a concern and considering viable back-up plans. It's not like we all aren't thinking the same things anyway, plummer fan or not, no one here wants a repeat of this season.

Exactly. I'm not a Plummer basher like some are. I just want to see him play better than last year, and if not, I want to see a backup plan. I don't want to see the Broncos stuck if he doesn't come through.

[FADERPROOF]

[QUOTE=DenFan38]the redundancy of this thread is rather humorous./QUOTE]

Exactly.

Instead of trying to do the obvious why don't you think about it. Throw some links to ads in the thread. Whose going to know. Nobody is reading the other's posts anyway? Doesn't post count help the board? Are people checking in on the thread and shaking there head? That does mean they are checking in right? It's like an online Bronco version of Jerry Springer only cleaner....so far.

Don't be a wuss. Pulling Mod rank on a beat to death thread is weak. Nobody is posting to this thing right now but you and me. It's offseason. It's the last thread of the season. Let it die on it's own.

Right now this thread is devolving to just Jason and Orange battling it out. If they start throwing around foul language then kill it but as long as they are within the normal realm of stupidity let em roll. Didn't they teach you that in Mod school? (Uh Oh! The wrath of Taco has been summoned. Peace out!)

Please come back to me when you make a coherent post.

[Odysseus]

Please come back to me when you make a coherent post.

I'm am still working on a coherent post. I'll have to keep practicing. Maybe I'll get it right one day. It's all trial and error.

Maybe you should post an FAQ on posting edicut. Some posting guide lines if you will. You never know when those could come in handy.

Thanks for the reply.

[Arkie]

This thread needs to go to the horses butt, seriously.

No, don't move it to the butt. Not until everybody is fully aware that Jake is our best option and only 2.85% of the team's blame. :) This thread deserves no less than the Ring of Fame!

[errand]

Just because I want a backup plan doesn't mean I don't support the guy. .

Well, you got an odd way of showing it. Calling for a Qb who has won 19 of 29 Denver starts, took every snap as QB this past season, led the team to consecutive playoff appearances, tied the franchise record for TD passes in a season, and has thrown for almost 8,000 yards over two seasons to have to compete for his job is pretty ludicrous. BTW we're still waiting for you guys to tell us what your back-up plan actually is....

Hey Jason try that on your wife or girlfriend.

"Umm honey, ya know I love you, but I think we should have another girl brought in just in case you don't pan out"

...and perhaps she'll believe you really do love her. :kiddingme

[errand]

BTW Jason...if you truly supported Jake, you wouldn't have spent over 60 pages on a message board trying to convince us we need a back-up plan.

[Jason in LA]

What's wrong with having a backup plan? Isn't that smart? Wasn't it smart to draft Gary after TD had run for 2000 yards? Wasn't it smart to draft Anderson after Gary had run for 1100 yards in 12 games, and TD was coming back? Wasn't it smart to bring in Gus Frerotte after Griese was clearly the starter? Gus had been a starter, and even had made a Pro Bowl before he was signed as Griese's backup. If Griese was so good, then why the backup plan? And why was Steve Beuerlein signed right after Griese signed his huge contract? If Griese was so good, then why was another guy that had been a starter, and a Pro Bowler, brought in? That's how it works. It's smart to have a backup plan. Hell, the Niners brought in Steve Young when they had Montana. If there is a backup plan for Montana, then there can be a backup plan for anybody. It's called being smart. I get the feeling that you Plummer supporters would rather see the Broncos go into next season with Kanell than a guy that has proven something in the league. I guess you guys want to make sure that Plummer has no chance of getting benched if he struggles again.

[Jason in LA]

BTW Jason...if you truly supported Jake, you wouldn't have spent over 60 pages on a message board trying to convince us we need a back-up plan.

I could see your point if I was asking for Plummer to be cut or benched. But that's not the case. It's like if anybody brings up any of Plummer's flaws you Plummer supporters go nuts. You Plummer supporters have this blind faith in the guy. It's not smart to have blind faith in anybody, especially a guy that has thrown 20 ints in a single year a number of times.

[Jason in LA]

Well, you got an odd way of showing it. Calling for a Qb who has won 19 of 29 Denver starts, took every snap as QB this past season, led the team to consecutive playoff appearances, tied the franchise record for TD passes in a season, and has thrown for almost 8,000 yards over two seasons to have to compete for his job is pretty ludicrous. BTW we're still waiting for you guys to tell us what your back-up plan actually is....

Hey Jason try that on your wife or girlfriend.

"Umm honey, ya know I love you, but I think we should have another girl brought in just in case you don't pan out"

...and perhaps she'll believe you really do love her. :kiddingme

I've never asked for competition. TJ and I are in agreement that Plummer has issues that are problems to the team, but he should remain the starter. But we differ in that he wants competition, I want a backup plan. I want Plummer as the clear #1, but I want a guy to be in place if he is still a problem. I don't see another QB pushing Plummer to be better.

[Arkie]

Matt Jones and Matt Mauck are a good enough backup plan.

[Odysseus]

Guys like Jason in LA and Quietiger aren't Plummer bashing. There are guys who simply just hate on him, but these guys are merely voicing a concern and considering viable back-up plans. It's not like we all aren't thinking the same things anyway, plummer fan or not, no one here wants a repeat of this season.

A bud of mine just got me my Plummer jersey! Woo Hoo! He said he didn't know whether to get the white one or the blue one. I'm glad he got the blue one. I was actually hoping for orange but I'm just happy to have it.

I don't know if I'm basher, backer or anything else. I just point out what I see and try to have a little fun doing it. I like the different views that folks have and have learned you can never convert anyone to anything online. They either love you or hate you and there is nothing you can do to fix that.

It's all perception. If you think I'm lucid then I'm a frigging genius. If you don't understand a thing I say there is nothing I can do to fix it.

You get what you get. (Think about it.)

[errand]

I could see your point if I was asking for Plummer to be cut or benched. But that's not the case. It's like if anybody brings up any of Plummer's flaws you Plummer supporters go nuts. You Plummer supporters have this blind faith in the guy. It's not smart to have blind faith in anybody, especially a guy that has thrown 20 ints in a single year a number of times.

And when I pointed out Elway's career valleys,(like that bonehead throw in the '91 AFC title bout) it was met with the same opposition.

...so tell us, what faith do you have in a coach that hasn't won a playoff game since '98, and has wasted alot of money trying to find his franchise QB and fix a sieve for a D. All he can claim now is his system can still churn out 1,000 rushers...

It's been 6 years since this guy has had real success in the NFL, and yet he is still referred to as some kind of mastermind. Hell Dan Reeves was fired a year after going to the AFC title game....(which was lost by the aformentioned Elway)...and yet Mike is infallable, huh?

BTW we don't have blind faith in Jake....if you clowns can come up with a real solution to what you perceive is the problem we're all ears...like I said, I love the Broncos, not Mike, John, Terrell, or Jake. But don't give us this hand wringing crap of "what will we ever do" should Jake not pan out.

Give us some names, and make sure they have accomplished something, anything before you throw their names out.

[] Garcia? He can't beat out Holcombe, and was released by a QB-poor team.

[] Kanell? Please, even you clowns aren't that stupid.

[] Mauck? He can't even make the Broncos forget Kanell.

[] McMahon? He's impressed the Lions so much they drafted Harrington #1, and now that they're tired of Harrington, McMahon's not mentioned as his replacement.

[] Garrard? See above and substitute Jags for Lions, and Leftwich for harrington (only difference is, Jags aren't tired of Leftwich)

[] Bledsoe? What future is there in trying to build around a late 30's QB that will need better protection than our OL can provide, and will need to be replaced in less than 2 years?

So give us the option (s)...a real option, not some daydream of no-name and has been QB's playing great....and we'll listen. If not, then you need to accept Jake as our starter....ints and all.

[orange 4 life]

Are you serious?!?! The defense carried the team much more than the offense did. There were games where the offense was a no show (mostly Plummer), and the D went out and won the game. How many games were there where the D was a no show, but the O went out and won the game? None.

Why do you blame everybody on the team except Plummer? No, it wasn't his fault that he played bad with the Cards. He didn't have the talent. Now that he has the talent, it's still not his fault. It's the defenses fault, it's poor WRs. It's RBs that can't run. It's a coach that calls bad plays. It's never Plummer's fault.

I got news for you, Plummer is far from a great QB. He's not a top 5 QB in the league. Some could argue he's not even a top 10 QB, and it would be hard to argue against that. His problems are mostly his own fault. He's not to blame for all of the Broncos' problems, but he is a part of the problem. Plummer has to be accountible for his own problems.

Orange 4 Life, I'm starting to think you have a man crush on Plummer. You can find nothing wrong with the guy, even though he is always amoung the league leaders in ints. Wake up man.

**** you jason.

i made all my points. every one of them has merit. i pointed to plummers shortcomings, and i pointed to the rest of the teams.
i just choose to not sample the taco jason kool aid. i choose to only blame plummer for the things that ACTUALLY were plummers fault.
you choose to oversimplify everything, and why not?
thats what the ADD generation does.
whatever floats your boat kiddo.

jake

[orange 4 life]

You need to get your facts straight. I was not a Griese supporter in any way. I was ready for that guy to hit the road after they beat the Rams at Mile High to open the '02 season. He almost choked the game away. That was the turning point for me. That's when I jumped off the bandwagon. I was all for Beuerlein to step in at that point.


im sure you were, because that wouldve been colossally stupid.
beuerlein?

oh yeah, THAT wouldve been better than griese ugh!~

wow. after that comment, alot of what youre saying on this thread makes sense.
bottom line is you hop off and on bandwagons at lightning speed, and you obviously dont put much thought into it either.

beuerlein? wow.

[orange 4 life]

That's where you are wrong. Have I ever said that Plummer can't do the job, or that I didn't want him as the starter? I have said many times that I want Jake to do well. I will be rooting for him to do well. Just because I want a backup plan doesn't mean I don't support the guy. If I had the same opinion as I had with Griese, who I wanted out, then you would have a point. But that's not the case with Plummer. So you can save your "I told you so" for the people that started the "Plummer Sucks" threads. Those were the Plummer bashers. Sorry, I'm not one of them.

oh no, you just blame him for everything except the black plague, but then you add "i dont want him gone" so that you can backpedal next year.

if you think he's as bad you make him out to be, then you SHOULD want him gone...

....except that that would paint you in a corner and force you to make a stand.
a stand that would haunt you next season.

[Arkie]

Jake was a top 10 QB in 2003. He was a top 5 QB the first half of last season. Overall, his 2004 season was above average. I expect Plummer to be a top 10 QB next year. That's pretty good. Less than a 1/3 of the teams get to have a top 10 QB.

[Jason in LA]

**** you jason.

i made all my points. every one of them has merit. i pointed to plummers shortcomings, and i pointed to the rest of the teams.
i just choose to not sample the taco jason kool aid. i choose to only blame plummer for the things that ACTUALLY were plummers fault.
you choose to oversimplify everything, and why not?
thats what the ADD generation does.
whatever floats your boat kiddo.

jake

Damn, who took a dump in your cereal? I see your emotions are getting the best of you. It's just a debate.

I'm also blaming Plummer for the things that were his fault. Did I blame Plummer for the defense giving up 35 points in the first half of the Colts game? No. But did I blame him for his part in only scoring 3 points in the first half of that game? Yes. You say that you only blame him for his faults, but you blame the defense for things that weren't there fault. It's not the defenses fault that Plummer played bad in a number of games. The defense had a some problmes, and they are being addressed. The O had some problems and they are being ignored. Well, ignored by some on this board. Shanny has left the option open for a backup plan by restructuring Plummer's contract. I don't know what the specifics are, but I'm sure it's a cap friendly deal where the Broncos could release him if he doesn't play well. That's all I wanted. The Broncos aren't as hitched to Plummer. Is there a clear cut backup plan right now? I dont' know. I'm not a scout. I'm pretty sure Shanny and his staff are watching some prospects. But as long as there is an option for a backup plan, I'm happy.

[orange 4 life]

What's wrong with having a backup plan? Isn't that smart? Wasn't it smart to draft Gary after TD had run for 2000 yards? Wasn't it smart to draft Anderson after Gary had run for 1100 yards in 12 games, and TD was coming back? Wasn't it smart to bring in Gus Frerotte after Griese was clearly the starter?

remind me again where gary and anderson were drafted?

...and incidentally, kanell was a starter elsewhere too.

see, you and taco want to waste high round picks or big free agent dollars on "a backup plan", and anyone who's eyes are open would prefer to use those picks and that money for guys who will actually see the field.

if a 7th round pick (like a mauck or vanpunk) works out as a "backup plan", then fine.
if a CHEAP vet like frerotte comes along, then fine (incidentally, thats EXACTLY what kanell was and is)

difference is, your "backup plan" includes wasting a first or second rounder and/or signing a high ticket BACKUP!!
ummm, no thanks. i'd prefer to get some players who will do more for the team than wear a baseball cap and help send in plays.

jake

[Jason in LA]

oh no, you just blame him for everything except the black plague, but then you add "i dont want him gone" so that you can backpedal next year.

if you think he's as bad you make him out to be, then you SHOULD want him gone...

....except that that would paint you in a corner and force you to make a stand.
a stand that would haunt you next season.

The only reason I've been pointing Plummer's faults is because this is a debate. We've been expressing our point of views. You go on and on about how great Plummer is. I don't agree with it. He's good at times. He's even great at times, but he's also bad at times. Too many times. You just don't want to except that. It's like you are offended by anybody that has the opinion that Plummer has issues. No need to get hostile over it.

[eddie mac]

Exactly. I'm not a Plummer basher like some are. I just want to see him play better than last year, and if not, I want to see a backup plan. I don't want to see the Broncos stuck if he doesn't come through.

It's a team game though. Jake could have a great year yet we could still finish 3-13 if our defense becomes the worst in the NFL over 1 offseason. Know what you're saying though about a decent back-up but they cost $$ and at the moment we dont have a defensive line so it takes priority.

[Jason in LA]

remind me again where gary and anderson were drafted?

...and incidentally, kanell was a starter elsewhere too.

see, you and taco want to waste high round picks or big free agent dollars on "a backup plan", and anyone who's eyes are open would prefer to use those picks and that money for guys who will actually see the field.

if a 7th round pick (like a mauck or vanpunk) works out as a "backup plan", then fine.
if a CHEAP vet like frerotte comes along, then fine (incidentally, thats EXACTLY what kanell was and is)

difference is, your "backup plan" includes wasting a first or second rounder and/or signing a high ticket BACKUP!!
ummm, no thanks. i'd prefer to get some players who will do more for the team than wear a baseball cap and help send in plays.

jake

Kanell was bad as a starter. Beuerlein and Frerotte both made the Pro Bowl as starters. That's a big difference. I'd take Beuerlein over Griese any day. Same type of QB, but with a much stronger arm.

Who said to break the bank on a QB. Nobody is saying sign Brees to a long term deal, and give up two #1s. Nobody is saying go out and spend $5 million on a backup QB. Nobody is saying trade up in the draft and get Alex Smith. There are other options out there. Shanny and his staff are looking into them. If they had no plans for a backup plan, they would have handed Plummer his entire option, instead of a restructure.

[orange 4 life]

Damn, who took a dump in your cereal? I see your emotions are getting the best of you. It's just a debate.

well jason, you accused me of having a "man crush", so i'd say it was you that "pissed in my wheaties" ???


I'm also blaming Plummer for the things that were his fault. Did I blame Plummer for the defense giving up 35 points in the first half of the Colts game? No. But did I blame him for his part in only scoring 3 points in the first half of that game? Yes. You say that you only blame him for his faults, but you blame the defense for things that weren't there fault. It's not the defenses fault that Plummer played bad in a number of games. The defense had a some problmes, and they are being addressed. The O had some problems and they are being ignored. Well, ignored by some on this board. Shanny has left the option open for a backup plan by restructuring Plummer's contract. I don't know what the specifics are, but I'm sure it's a cap friendly deal where the Broncos could release him if he doesn't play well. That's all I wanted. The Broncos aren't as hitched to Plummer. Is there a clear cut backup plan right now? I dont' know. I'm not a scout. I'm pretty sure Shanny and his staff are watching some prospects. But as long as there is an option for a backup plan, I'm happy.

actually, plummers restructure puts money at the back end of the deal, which helps us to sign players NOW, but cripples us if we release him.
basically, its exactly the opposite of what you wanted since youre looking for an escape clause.

[Crushaholic]

I'm sure this has been repeated SEVERAL times, but I'm not going to dig it out of this mammoth thread. Plummer had over 4000 yards and 27 TDs this year. Sure, he had 20 INTs and has a problem reading coverages at times. HOWEVER, we DON'T need to waste a first or second round pick on a QB when there are few mechanics of Jake's game that need to be adjusted. I really wanted to get Norm Chow. He's good at working with quarterbacks. I will say it again...people who want a "backup plan" AREN'T giving Mauck a chance.

[Jason in LA]

well jason, you accused me of having a "man crush", so i'd say it was you that "pissed in my wheaties" ???

Come on, it was funny. ;D


actually, plummers restructure puts money at the back end of the deal, which helps us to sign players NOW, but cripples us if we release him.
basically, its exactly the opposite of what you wanted since youre looking for an escape clause.

We'd have to see a break down of what was turned into a bonus, and what was turned into back loaded salary. Usually when teams back loads a contract they do it to cut that player before he gets that money, or to restructure it again. At this point we don't know what the cap hit will be if they cut him. But I'm pretty sure Shanny wouldn't give Plummer a contract that would cause them to take an even bigger cap hit to cut him. That's not smart business.

[orange 4 life]

Kanell was bad as a starter. Beuerlein and Frerotte both made the Pro Bowl as starters. That's a big difference. I'd take Beuerlein over Griese any day. Same type of QB, but with a much stronger arm.


uhhh. well....no. he was LESS mobile than griese, had equal arm strength, and was LESS accurate. bad choice.

as for kanell, frerotte, and beuerlein, it doesnt matter pal. the point isnt how effective they were or werent BEFORE coming here. the point is that ALL THREE came CHEAP. if you have someone in mind thats as cheap or cheaper than kanell and appreciably better i'd LOVE to hear it. ill be waiting.


Who said to break the bank on a QB. Nobody is saying sign Brees to a long term deal, and give up two #1s. Nobody is saying go out and spend $5 million on a backup QB. Nobody is saying trade up in the draft and get Alex Smith. There are other options out there. Shanny and his staff are looking into them.

really? youre not saying that?
then what precisely ARE you saying?
besides nothing i mean.

if you dont want plummer replaced, you dont want a high draft choice qb or a high dollar free agent, what in the HELL do you want?
sounds to me like you want your cake and eat it too.
doesnt work that way pal.
well, not here on earth anyway.

again, if what you want is a cheap backup thats better than kanell, i'd LOVE to hear what you have in mind.
you say there "are other options".
well, how about you tell us what even ONE of those options are :kiddingme


If they had no plans for a backup plan, they would have handed Plummer his entire option, instead of a restructure.


oooops!! they restructured with plummer and put the money at the BACK end of the deal, which means parting ways with him will be HARDER in the future.
seems they dont share your hesitance.
maybe its just that shanahan has a "man crush" on plummer ???

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Jake was a top 10 QB in 2003. He was a top 5 QB the first half of last season. Overall, his 2004 season was above average. I expect Plummer to be a top 10 QB next year. That's pretty good. Less than a 1/3 of the teams get to have a top 10 QB.

In 2003? No way. Your passing offense was one of the worst in the league, even with Plummer.

2004 I actually agree..he played very well before his meltdown.

[orange 4 life]

We'd have to see a break down of what was turned into a bonus, and what was turned into back loaded salary. Usually when teams back loads a contract they do it to cut that player before he gets that money, or to restructure it again. At this point we don't know what the cap hit will be if they cut him. But I'm pretty sure Shanny wouldn't give Plummer a contract that would cause them to take an even bigger cap hit to cut him. That's not smart business.

well jason, it IS smart business, because the GOAL wasnt "to cut the player before he gets that money", the goal was to free up money NOW to sign other players.

the hit for cutting him isnt necessarily alot WORSE than it was, but the point is its not BETTER either.
in other words, that was never the issue. the issue was freeing up money to sign free agents and draft picks.
just like we did late in elways career.
lets hope this works out half as well as that did!

jake

[Jason in LA]

uhhh. well....no. he was LESS mobile than griese, had equal arm strength, and was LESS accurate. bad choice.



That's nuts. Beuerlein had very good arm strength. Griese had a noodle arm. They aren't even comparible.

Less mobile? That's not really possible. Griese was very slow, just like Beuerlein.

Less accurate? Maybe. But not by much.

Overall Beuerlein was a better QB than Griese. I'd take him any day over Griese.


really? youre not saying that?
then what precisely ARE you saying?




Have you been reading for the past 65 pages? At times it doesn't seem like you have.

[alkemical]

i'd burn a 2nd rounder for a qb - it'd be good to get some depth. However, if mauck is good enough that we don't have to - then i'm fine with NOT spending a pick for a qb.

[Odysseus]

No, don't move it to the butt. Not until everybody is fully aware that Jake is our best option and only 2.85% of the team's blame. :) This thread deserves no less than the Ring of Fame!

It would be funny to see this in the Ring of Fame. Nobody is going to do that no matter how good the posts are. I would love it. :)

O.K. I'll bite. You got my curiousity. Matt Jones. Is he the real deal? How would we get this guy on the team? I think having him as a TE for a couple of years would be incredible. How good is this guy?

[orange 4 life]

That's nuts. Beuerlein had very good arm strength. Griese had a noodle arm. They aren't even comparible.

griese was never above average in arm strength, but he wasnt half as bad as most bronco fans made him out to be, ESPECIALLY before the shoulder surgeries.
did you watch him last year? plenty of zip on the ball. elway or favre he is not, but he was about average, same as beuerlein.


Less mobile? That's not really possible. Griese was very slow, just like Beuerlein.

no, they werent even comparable.
if you think its "not possible" to be less mobile than griese, then you havent watched alot of football in your time.
are you aware that when gruden put griese in the lineup he said (among other compliments) "..his mobility allows us to do alot more."?
griese (like beuerlein) sat in the pocket too long, and griese had a VERY poor sense of backside pressure, but he wasnt NEAR as slow as everyone made him out to be. mobile? no, not really, but not a statue like beuerlein either.
once again, you are taking the status quo and assuming it as truth.


Less accurate? Maybe. But not by much.

Overall Beuerlein was a better QB than Griese. I'd take him any day over Griese.


youre entitled to your opinion, but even taco loses you on that one. you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldve preferred beuerlein in '02.
well, anyone who didnt have an unhealthy griese hating obsession.


Have you been reading for the past 65 pages? At times it doesn't seem like you have.

have you? have you read what YOUVE written?
at ALL times it doesnt seem like you have.
do you realize that after this many pages, your conclusions are that

1) plummer played poorly in 7 games, never overcame a poor defensive performance, made alot of "bonehead" mistakes, only had good stats because everyone else did too, and "collapsed" late in the season.
2) after all that, you want him as the starter in '05.
3) you want a "backup plan" in case plummer doesnt work out.
4) you DONT want to use a high round pick or sign a high dollar free agent.
5) the team has "options", but you dont know what they are.
6)..and most importantly, you dont have a CLUE what that "backup plan" should be.

does that about sum it up?

if you want a "backup plan", but you DONT want to spend big money or first day picks, what exactly DO you propose we do?

jake

[Arkie]

It would be funny to see this in the Ring of Fame. Nobody is going to do that no matter how good the posts are. I would love it. :)

O.K. I'll bite. You got my curiousity. Matt Jones. Is he the real deal? How would we get this guy on the team? I think having him as a TE for a couple of years would be incredible. How good is this guy?

Matt Jones would excel at TE. He would be a great 2nd day pick like Shannon Sharpe. Jones can make it on the next level at a number of positions. He can punt and long snap, probably play safety, but he needs to play where he is most valuable. He could have been Arkansas's best receiver, but he was too valuable not to have his hands on the ball at all times. He's a good B-baller. He's got the size and vertical leap to be the go-to guy. One of the things I like about him is that he is always proving people wrong. They said he wouldn't play QB at a college level. They said he would get little playing time for the basketball team, and he ended up starting. Somebody will get lucky for drafting Jones. I hope it's the Broncos.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Anybody know how many pages some of the Griese threads ran?

Is there a number we should be shooting for?

SSJ

[Odysseus]

I know this doesn't make sense to a lot of people but I find basketball to be an excellent tool for training football players. If a guy comes in with basketball skills I will put money the Broncos will be getting one heck of a player.

[Odysseus]

Anybody know how many pages some of the Griese threads ran?

Is there a number we should be shooting for?

SSJ Good question.

[errand]

Anybody know how many pages some of the Griese threads ran?

Is there a number we should be shooting for?

SSJ

Not sure how long the threads were, but the Griese debate had some of the most memorable battles like Popps and TJ, myself and the GiggleGirls, and a couple of others that for the moment escapes my memory...now those were some great debate threads!

[Jason in LA]

youre entitled to your opinion, but even taco loses you on that one. you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldve preferred beuerlein in '02.
well, anyone who didnt have an unhealthy griese hating obsession.



You weren't here during the '02 season (unless you were here under a different name, or just didn't post). Who do you think people wanted to see in place of Griese? The Griese debates didn't start after the '02 season. They started during the '01 season, and they got really heated in '02. Everybody that was against Griese wanted to see Beuerlein step in. There were a number of members here that wanted SB to replace Griese.

[orange 4 life]

You weren't here during the '02 season (unless you were here under a different name, or just didn't post). Who do you think people wanted to see in place of Griese? The Griese debates didn't start after the '02 season. They started during the '01 season, and they got really heated in '02. Everybody that was against Griese wanted to see Beuerlein step in. There were a number of members here that wanted SB to replace Griese.

what can i say?
there were alot of people who followed hitler also.

anyone who actually wanted beuerlein to start over griese was legally insane.
thats so ridiculous as to not even require further discussion. done.

interesting that thats the only thing you responded to.

jake

[DB-Freak]

When will you ever let it go?

[orange 4 life]

When will you ever let it go?

im not sure who youre referring to, but if its me, ill let it go when i stop reading the crap ive read.

the broncos are my passion, and i will never "let it go" when it comes to them or what i know is best for their future, but hey, thats just me.
im sure jason feels the same way (and even though i VEHEMENTLY disagree with him i respect that), and thats why he's still on the thread also.

if you have a problem with me not letting go, you can simply "let go" and not post on this thread anymore.

peace.

jake

[DB-Freak]

im not sure who youre referring to, but if its me, ill let it go when i stop reading the crap ive read.

the broncos are my passion, and i will never "let it go" when it comes to them or what i know is best for their future, but hey, thats just me.
im sure jason feels the same way (and even though i VEHEMENTLY disagree with him i respect that), and thats why he's still on the thread also.

if you have a problem with me not letting go, you can simply "let go" and not post on this thread anymore.

peace.

jake
Ok then all I ask is you dont have a heart attack over it.

Even the smallest thing can raise your blood pressure and thats not worth it.

[orange 4 life]

Ok then all I ask is you dont have a heart attack over it.

Even the smallest thing can raise your blood pressure and thats not worth it.

well, i appreciate the concern.

actually, my blood pressure is pretty steady, though certain bronco related things (one of which as everyone knows is watching the qb get blamed for things he shouldnt) will raise it a bit.

not to dangerous levels though.
no need to worry.

[Arkie]

what can i say?
there were alot of people who followed hitler also.

anyone who actually wanted beuerlein to start over griese was legally insane.
thats so ridiculous as to not even require further discussion. done.

interesting that thats the only thing you responded to.

jake

I'm on your side in the Plummer debate, but I thought Beuerlein was an excellent addition to our team back then. He was an experienced vet just 2 years removed from the pro bowl. Remember, in his first Denver game, he threw only two passes--both TDs. He hadn't thrown a pass in 2 seasons. I was intrigued by what he could do with our offense once Griese started to falter. It turns out that Beuerlein didn't have much left. Hindsight is 20/20, so I may look legally insane now.:)

[Jason in LA]

I'm on your side in the Plummer debate, but I thought Beuerlein was an excellent addition to our team back then. He was an experienced vet just 2 years removed from the pro bowl. Remember, in his first Denver game, he threw only two passes--both TDs. He hadn't thrown a pass in 2 seasons. I was intrigued by what he could do with our offense once Griese started to falter. It turns out that Beuerlein didn't have much left. Hindsight is 20/20, so I may look legally insane now.:)

I'm glad somebody has a good memory.

SB had thrown for over 4400 yards and 36 TDs two years before with the Panthers. He was a Pro Bowler that year. Weak arm QBs don't put up those type of numbers. He was legit, and Griese only had about 10 good games under his belt. Why wouldn't anybody want SB in there?

[Crushaholic]

Anybody know how many pages some of the Griese threads ran?

Is there a number we should be shooting for?

SSJ

A quick search of "Griese" shows that none of those threads are even close to this one. I only looked at threads ABOUT Griese and not just mentioning him. Of course, this is just counting the threads before the server transfer. Older threads might tell something different.

[bendog]

I just dropped by to post that if that ****e Jake hadn't poured all the vodka and southpaw and merlot down my gullet last nite, I woulnd't feel like he played in Indy. But, I do want to add that in 2000 SOB had his ungodly year of 19tds and 4 picks, and had started 10 games in 99. In 99 Chris Miller was the no 2 guy, after shanny pulled brister. In 00 freerot was the no 2. And in 01 freerot was ahead of burrline on the depth chart. I think the plan was for burrline to rebuild his arm strength in 01 to be the primary backup in 02

burrline got in 7 games in 02. for what it's worth I too was pretty shocked at how bad he sucked. SOB's arm was pretty lame by then, and everyone hated him by then too, even his dog, but Burrline seemed to hold onto the ball forever, and then make bad decisions about where to throw.

[bendog]

ps, I gotta go drink another gallon of water and hope for renal function

[Crushaholic]

ps, I gotta go drink another gallon of water and hope for renal function

Good luck with that... LOL

[labronx]

This Thread is Overated.

[bendog]

So's sex, but what ya gonna do?

[labronx]

So's sex, but what ya gonna do?


let me start an argument here,

Sex is not overated!

just kidding,
don't you hate when somebody responds with that.

Allthough it would not be overated if you got a new partner every week.

now that would be awesome

[errand]

anyone who actually wanted beuerlein to start over griese was legally insane.
thats so ridiculous as to not even require further discussion. done.


Why would it have been ridiculous? Griese was no leader and Beuerlein at the time still had some gas in the tank.

I for one wanted the Broncos to dump Griese, and start Beuerlein in '02, after they drafted the franchise QB. I even advocated trading Portis then to secure the number one pick if need be to ensure we could get that franchise type QB.

Sure '02 would have been a wasted season, but the long term solution meant we'd not have any QB problems for at least a decade barring injury or the top guy being a flop.

[Jason in LA]

Looks like 3 legally insane people so far. If we polled the entire board about SB we'd find many more legally insane people.

[No1BroncoFan]

what can i say?
there were alot of people who followed hitler also.

anyone who actually wanted beuerlein to start over griese was legally insane.
thats so ridiculous as to not even require further discussion. done.

interesting that thats the only thing you responded to.

jake
Jake,
That's hardly fair. At the time, there were a number of people, myself included, who wanted to see B-line start. Not because we really thought he'd be better, but because we thought he couldn't possibly be worse and he might be better. Remember, Griese was already persona non grata at the time.

Ben

[Jason in LA]

That makes four legally insane people.

SB was on par with SOB (haven't seen that name in a while) in '02. SOB had him slightly in rating, 85-82. SOB had him in completion percentage 66%-58%. But that was mustly because he was a dink and dunk QB. SB averaged 13.6 yards per completion. SOB average 11 yards per completion. TD/Ints were pretty much the same. 15/15 for SOB. 6/5 for SB. The only game where they both played was the Raider game, where SOB single handedly put the Broncos in a 21-0 hole. SB replaced SOB after SOB got hurt, or was benched, which ever one you want. SB made a game of it, and had the Broncos within a score before they fell short.

SB didn't prove any of the anti-Griese crowd right, but he wasn't worse.

[Taco John]

I'd take SOB over Beuerlein... Beuerlein didn't do anything to convince me he was anything but a washed up friend of Shanahan's who needed a job to finish out his career...

[Odysseus]

Five...

SB was a locker room hire.

[Atlas]

I'd take SOB over Beuerlein... Beuerlein didn't do anything to convince me he was anything but a washed up friend of Shanahan's who needed a job to finish out his career...

I must admit that last year Buerline was here he played really bad. I think Greise can be a good QB in this league. He is very accurate and he is smart. He just can't be such an arrogant prick. If your teamates don't like you they won't fight for you.

[Jason in LA]

I'd take SOB over Beuerlein... Beuerlein didn't do anything to convince me he was anything but a washed up friend of Shanahan's who needed a job to finish out his career...

That's pretty much true. But he was just as good, or as bad, as Griese was that year. A lot of us knew that SOB was bad. We wanted to find out what SB could do.

[orange 4 life]

I'm on your side in the Plummer debate, but I thought Beuerlein was an excellent addition to our team back then. He was an experienced vet just 2 years removed from the pro bowl. Remember, in his first Denver game, he threw only two passes--both TDs. He hadn't thrown a pass in 2 seasons. I was intrigued by what he could do with our offense once Griese started to falter. It turns out that Beuerlein didn't have much left. Hindsight is 20/20, so I may look legally insane now.:)

dont get me wrong.
i definately thought beuerlein was a good pickup as a BACKUP qb, especially because of the added vet leadership, but a viable solution as a starter he was not.
plus, the main criticism of griese was lack of mobility, and of course beuerlein made griese look like elway.
bottom line is was never a reasonable option as a starter for us.

jake

[bendog]

SB - SOB .... two stiffs.

[orange 4 life]

Why would it have been ridiculous? Griese was no leader and Beuerlein at the time still had some gas in the tank.

I for one wanted the Broncos to dump Griese, and start Beuerlein in '02, after they drafted the franchise QB. I even advocated trading Portis then to secure the number one pick if need be to ensure we could get that franchise type QB.

Sure '02 would have been a wasted season, but the long term solution meant we'd not have any QB problems for at least a decade barring injury or the top guy being a flop.

well errand, if you were willing to chalk up '02 as a "wasted season", then that may have been an option.
that i can understand.
however, if we WERENT going to accept '02 as a loss, griese was clearly the better option at the time.

if your goal was to win RIGHT THEN in '02, would you have still wanted beuerlein to have started?

no, me neither.

jake

[orange 4 life]

I'd take SOB over Beuerlein... Beuerlein didn't do anything to convince me he was anything but a washed up friend of Shanahan's who needed a job to finish out his career...

exactly

[Jason in LA]

dont get me wrong.
i definately thought beuerlein was a good pickup as a BACKUP qb, especially because of the added vet leadership, but a viable solution as a starter he was not.
plus, the main criticism of griese was lack of mobility, and of course beuerlein made griese look like elway.
bottom line is was never a reasonable option as a starter for us.

jake

Nobody was looking for him to be a long term solution. We were looking for a quick fix until a long term solution could be found. At that time a quick fix was the only option. SOB was sucking on a pretty good team. Mobility wasn't the main criticism of him. It was choking games away. It was stinking up the joint. The only other option was a guy that had thrown for 4400 yards and 36 TDs a couple of years before. At the time, why not go with him? SB wasn't the quick fix that we hoped he'd be when he finally got his chance, but he wasn't worse than Griese.

[Jason in LA]

exactly

Did SOB do a better job than SB that year? Nope.

[Old Dude]

This thread has more life than Jason & Michael Meyers combined.

[Crushaholic]

This thread has more life than Jason & Michael Meyers combined.

...and almost as scary as your avatar... Ha!

[2KBack]

Why on earth are we arguing about Griese? isn't this a Jake thread?

[errand]

I'd take SOB over Beuerlein... Beuerlein didn't do anything to convince me he was anything but a washed up friend of Shanahan's who needed a job to finish out his career...

..and why wouldn't you think that, afterall, "Brian Griese when given protection, is the NFL's most efficient QB - bar none"

So tell us TJ...what did Brian convince you he was?

[errand]

well errand, if you were willing to chalk up '02 as a "wasted season", then that may have been an option.
that i can understand.
however, if we WERENT going to accept '02 as a loss, griese was clearly the better option at the time.

if your goal was to win RIGHT THEN in '02, would you have still wanted beuerlein to have started?

no, me neither.

jake

Sorry, Jake....but the '02 Broncos weren't that good of a team....period. Regardless of which of them QB'd the team...we'd still would have finished where we did. And that's what fueled the Griese-Beuerlein debate in the pre-season...and kept it going during the season.

While I cheer for the Broncos to win every game, every season, I am a realist who knew we were not going to make a ton of noise in '02, mainly because we still had Griese as our QB. I also knew Beuerlein had seen better days...so my theory was to give up the present for the future.

If '02 could have been sacrificed in order to solve the QB problem that existed then, I was all for it. If trading Portis away in '02 would have ensured that happened...I was all for it.

My plan was -

[] to draft a potential franchise type QB (wasn't that Carson Palmer's year?), with the intention of starting the franchise/future in '03 after learning from a guy who was a good role model and was respected by the team (Beuerlein)

[] then dump Griese, who had proven to be nothing but an amateur drawing pay, on an unsuspecting rival and

[] replace him with Beuerlein, have the Broncos finish in the middle of the pack with the kid getting perhaps some garbage snaps under his belt.

[] in '03 armed with a potential franchise type QB, and the pick(s) we got from that unsuspecting rival, and our own mid round picks, build a team that could compete for the title on a regular basis.

Now would you sacrifice one year if it meant approximately 10 years of consistently competing for the title? I would..............

[Taco John]

..and why wouldn't you think that, afterall, "Brian Griese when given protection, is the NFL's most efficient QB - bar none"

So tell us TJ...what did Brian convince you he was?



The most efficient quarterback when given protection.

I still believe it to be true. He proved it once again this past year. I have no problem recognizing what Grise can do right. He's the perfect WCO quarterback when he's got solid protection. He's probably one of the best short game quarterbacks in the league right now.

[errand]

The most efficient quarterback when given protection.

I still believe it to be true. He proved it once again this past year. I have no problem recognizing what Grise can do right. He's the perfect WCO quarterback when he's got solid protection. He's probably one of the best short game quarterbacks in the league right now.

...it was your inability to recognize what he did wrong that makes your statement ludicrous.

So tell us TJ, what offense do we run?

[Odysseus]

Why on earth are we arguing about Griese? isn't this a Jake thread?

This whole thread is about the past. Griese, Elway, and whatever pieces of last season make the most sense.

[bendog]

Thinking of misplaced blame.

Think it might be a vicious dog rather than a baby swing?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=15&u=/ap/20050223/ap_on_re_us/baby_swings_dogs_3

[Odysseus]

Thinking of misplaced blame.

Think it might be a vicious dog rather than a baby swing?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=15&u=/ap/20050223/ap_on_re_us/baby_swings_dogs_3

Nope. The reason I know? It's the offseason and we are all experts on everything this time of year and besides two years ago I stayed at a Holiday Inn.

[bendog]

LOL. I remember Little Girl Dog and that thing. It was batter operated and put her to sleep. Old Ben loved it. Plus, it had the advantage of pinning her in, so he could steal her teething biscuits without retaliation.

[bendog]

Also,

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=757&e=1&u=/nm/20050224/od_nm/od d_dog_dc

I wonder what the doggy ran him into. Seriously, I had this crazy blind female boss years ago, and she had a doberman guide dog - Serioulsy I'm not making this up - and the dog would passively aggressively run her into things ... like curbs, and the best act being the dog would cut a doorway close so as to "scrape" the blind woman off. funniest damn thing.

Anyway the woman would jerk the choke chain on the harness "GD it Heather I'm gonna kill you."

[orange 4 life]

Sorry, Jake....but the '02 Broncos weren't that good of a team....period. Regardless of which of them QB'd the team...we'd still would have finished where we did. And that's what fueled the Griese-Beuerlein debate in the pre-season...and kept it going during the season.

While I cheer for the Broncos to win every game, every season, I am a realist who knew we were not going to make a ton of noise in '02, mainly because we still had Griese as our QB. I also knew Beuerlein had seen better days...so my theory was to give up the present for the future.

If '02 could have been sacrificed in order to solve the QB problem that existed then, I was all for it. If trading Portis away in '02 would have ensured that happened...I was all for it.

My plan was -

[] to draft a potential franchise type QB (wasn't that Carson Palmer's year?), with the intention of starting the franchise/future in '03 after learning from a guy who was a good role model and was respected by the team (Beuerlein)

[] then dump Griese, who had proven to be nothing but an amateur drawing pay, on an unsuspecting rival and

[] replace him with Beuerlein, have the Broncos finish in the middle of the pack with the kid getting perhaps some garbage snaps under his belt.

[] in '03 armed with a potential franchise type QB, and the pick(s) we got from that unsuspecting rival, and our own mid round picks, build a team that could compete for the title on a regular basis.

Now would you sacrifice one year if it meant approximately 10 years of consistently competing for the title? I would..............

i think thats a fair enough plan, had it all worked out.
still though, i just wasnt ready to accept failure that year.
remember, at the halfway point we were 6-2 and ranked NUMBER ONE in most power rankings.
griese was playing very well, and shannon sharpe said "gannon and griese. thats your probowl quarterbacks."

obviously it didnt END that way, but that team looked awful good at the halfway point (which is becoming a pattern) and i wouldve been pretty upset to see them give up on what started as a very promising season.
that game at home against oakland where gannon completed 90% of his passes was the beginning of the end.

anyway, im in complete agreement that replacing griese with plummer was the right move, but i dont think it was a foregone conclusion that the '02 team was doomed.
if ray rhodes wouldve stopped the dink and dunk passing game that oakland exposed and everyone else followed, i think we had a good enough team that year.
hell, i thought they had a chance to get to the superbowl.
sounds crazy now, but it looked to be a good prediction at the halfway point of the season.

jake

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Who let this drop! ;D

[Jason in LA]

Bob :poke: Orangemane

[Odysseus]

Who let this drop! ;D

You must really enjoy getting negative rep.

[SDChiefsfan]

UPDATE???

Enquiring minds want to know? hmmm...

[ZachKC]

Discuss...

[Sideburn]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaaa

[SDChiefsfan]

Discuss...

In detail, please.....

[Mile High Shack]

is there any question this time?

Jake played like poopy-ca-ca

so did some receivers and so did the oline

but even some wide open guys it was a flutter ball

[Meck77]

but even some wide open guys it was a flutter ball

Not sure why we have all these threads. This one sentence sums it up.

[watermock]

Man, Herm Edwards looks like he hasn't slept.

I can't wait to see Shanahan.

[ZachKC]

Jake played like poopy-ca-ca


This is def the post of a guy who has an infant child.

Hilarious!

;)

[Mile High Shack]

This is def the post of a guy who has an infant child.

Hilarious!

;)

it's better than what I really want to say, but I'm trying to swear less thank you

[ZachKC]

it's better than what I really want to say, but I'm trying to swear less thank you
You're doing well.

[SDChiefsfan]

Man, Herm Edwards looks like he hasn't slept.

I can't wait to see Shanahan.

So what are Shanahan's press conferences like....seriously?

Does he get pissed off?
Does he cry like DV?
Does he demonstrate quiet resolve?

Seriously.....I know how our coaches have been, historically....and I lived in Colorado Spings during the Reeves era....what's Shanny's like?

[Taco John]

So what are Shanahan's press conferences like....seriously?

Does he get pissed off?
Does he cry like DV?
Does he demonstrate quiet resolve?

Seriously.....I know how our coaches have been, historically....and I lived in Colorado Spings during the Reeves era....what's Shanny's like?



They're very matter of fact...

[SDChiefsfan]

They're very matter of fact...

Stern, unemotional type. That's good. One game is certainly no reason to get too high, or too low....and I suspect the press and fans will be tough on him today. As much as I like DV, that emotional sappy crap annoys me most of the time. :-/

[Drunk idiot kicker]

I think we should change the title of this thread... ;D

[24champ]

A dumbed down offense. I'm sorry, but Jake's accuracy gets to me!
We all know Jake could give a rats arse about what us fans think....

[maven]

Just dont' care for his accuracy. It's disappointing. He is the reason this team will not go anywhere in the playoffs. I want some real talent at the QB position. It's getting old & I hope Shanny realizes it soon. Seriously do any of you feel confident in this guy. I know it's what we got & we're off to a 5-2 start. But, it's pretty easy to see what's going to happen at the end of the tunnel.

Leinart in 2006!

[SDChiefsfan]

2 interceptions, 2 fumbles

Yup, he's a playmaker, TJ. :thumbsup:

[SDChiefsfan]

I honestly think ya'all just need to give Jake 6 or 8 more years.

He's really progressing. Really. :thumbs:

[ROYC75]

All season long the Fake Jake stepped forward.......

Time caught up to him today, the real Jake stepped forward.


I hope that Shanarat never really see's that Jake is a very good backup QB.


Not rubbing it in, you guys are sore enought the way it is, but this is just the facts about Jake.

[Sassy]

Hmmm....think TJ goes back to his old thoughts on Jake...
SEATTLE INT! Kicking some butt....awesome!

[Northman]

Hmmm....think TJ goes back to his old thoughts on Jake...
SEATTLE INT! Kicking some butt....awesome!


You actually rooting for the Hawks Sassy?

[Sassy]

You actually rooting for the Hawks Sassy?
Not so much as I'm rooting against Carolina!

It's kind of a NO TO, NO PORTIS, NO STEVE SMITH kind of thing ;D

[footballer63868557]

This season Jake showed that he could make the right decisions, one game isn't enough to take all of that away from him.

[Jason in LA]

This time around, he's really not to blame.

[maven]

Down 17-3, that ****ing pick killed us. I knew it was game over when plummer did that.

[ludo21]

This season Jake showed that he could make the right decisions, one game isn't enough to take all of that away from him.


yep, i agree.

3 straight playoff appearances, guy is a winner, he played his butt off, but he just couldnt get it done with blitzers in his face all game.

His 2 ints ill put on him, gotta make better throws.

[maven]

yep, i agree.

3 straight playoff appearances, guy is a winner, he played his butt off, but he just couldnt get it done with blitzers in his face all game.

His 2 ints ill put on him, gotta make better throws.

Damn man, take off the homer glasses. It's the system. Imagine a legit QB back there. Plummer is a caretaker. He's not going to take Denver to the promise land.

[Jason in LA]

Down 17-3, that ****ing pick killed us. I knew it was game over when plummer did that.

I see being down 17-3 as more of the problem than that pick.

[ScottXray]

Damn man, take off the homer glasses. It's the system. Imagine a legit QB back there. Plummer is a caretaker. He's not going to take Denver to the promise land.
Maybe he won't ..and maybe he will.
Keep it in perspective...we got to the AFCC game with:

Plummer { the mistake?}, One OLD possession receiver, one spotty deep threat receiver, two mediocre tight ends, a pretty good FB, a 32 year old running back, a spotty reserve RB that is very fast, an undersized and aging O-line that is suspect in short yardage, and a defense that A. couldn't pressure the other QB without a supporting blitz and B. had two rookies starting at DB, and an injured Bailey on the other side. and C. a safety that is OLD and somewhat slow.

Our O coordinator is going to another team {unless they change their mind after the game today} so we'll have a new O design [somewhat], and we have 11 draft choices to bring in new blood and talent. We also have several players that were rookies last year and several others that were on injured reserve this year that will be upgrades over some of the talent this year.

If we upgrade the D and O-lines at all we should be back in the playoffs next year...even with that "caretaker" QB.

If The game today is repeated next year and Jake gives up 4 turnovers THEN I'll say he is a problem.

All this is conjecture and YOUR results may vary.:pimp:

[Rigs11]

Damn man, take off the homer glasses. It's the system. Imagine a legit QB back there. Plummer is a caretaker. He's not going to take Denver to the promise land.
Better yet imagine a defense that could stop the opposing offense. Or a line that could protect the QB.Spread the blame around, it's not a one man show.

[SDChiefsfan]

Damn man, take off the homer glasses. It's the system. Imagine a legit QB back there. Plummer is a caretaker. He's not going to take Denver to the promise land.

Well, not everyone is drinking the kool-aid Shanny is serving....:thumbs:

[chrisdel]

I see being down 17-3 as more of the problem than that pick.

17-3 turned into 24-3. This loss isn't all Plummer's fault, certainly. But that sealed the deal.

GO CHIEFS! BRONCOS - ELWAY = SUCK

[SDChiefsfan]

17-3 turned into 24-3. This loss isn't all Plummer's fault, certainly. But that sealed the deal.

GO CHIEFS! BRONCOS - ELWAY = SUCK

Hell, second half Pitt sat on the lead; coulda really embarrased you guys, if they had tried....

[Drunk idiot kicker]

BUMP...

Because its not (ever) JAKE'S fault, its everybody else on the teams fault...

It has to be Ashlie Lelie and Al Wilson and John Lynch and Champ Bailey and Mike Shanahan...

Its all their FAULTS, because JAKE'S NOT TO BLAME...

[alkemical]

can't you just let it die man? For the love of god!

[Odysseus]

can't you just let it die man? For the love of god!

can't you just let it die man? For the love of god!
__________________
amesj523 is dead

Who cares what you think! You killed Ames! You Bastige!!!

[alkemical]

lol

i did. it was either him or me - i couldn't stand the paranoia and fear, the loathing too.... ;)

[Odysseus]

lol

i did. it was either him or me - i couldn't stand the paranoia and fear, the loathing too.... ;)

I have a friend who left me a voice mail message and interupted her own conversation and was completely mesmerized by a butterfly she had never seen before. Her complete zen like rapture over the simple things has me convinced you can find salvation in a smile.

I focus on the simplest of kindness because it's all that is.

[alkemical]

Yep, my first bit of enlightenment came when i was watching a dragon fly

[Arkie]

"The guy is a great quarterback, a great teammate, and as I tell our guys every week, it's up to us to make him great," Rod Smith said. "And we didn't do a good job of that last week."

[Northman]

Jake is God, all the other broncos are just scrubs surrounding the best Qb in the league.

[Jason in LA]

Seeing a few Plummer threads over the past week or so made me dust this one off. This was an epic thread.