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-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:19 PM
0-6 against <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a>.

1-7 against Bill Belichick.

0-7 in Foxboro.

http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/FBO10601162328.jpeg

Garcia Bronco
01-16-2005, 04:21 PM
didn't you start a thread about names in the title?

:)

GonzoLays
01-16-2005, 04:21 PM
I simply cannot believe you put a full name in the thread title when you devoted a whole thread to tell others NOT TO pull full names in the thread title.

I guess you never read your own thread.

That is too funny. And sad.

DB-Freak
01-16-2005, 04:22 PM
Ouch.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:23 PM
I simply cannot believe you put a full name in the thread title when you devoted a whole thread to tell others NOT TO pull full names in the thread title.

I guess you never read your own thread.

That is too funny. And sad.

I fixed it.

And nobody likes you.

:)

GonzoLays
01-16-2005, 04:23 PM
Well atleast you fixed it, but still....

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:25 PM
So overcome with glee was I, that I forget my own admonition. I'm so glad people jumped my ass for it in two minutes flat. I deserve it.

rofl

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:26 PM
Well atleast you fixed it, but still....

I'm trainable, just severely undermotivated.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:28 PM
Please, though, start another Slap is an asshole thread if you must, but let's leave this thread strictly for bashing the choking dog that is Peyton Manning.

Tredici
01-16-2005, 04:32 PM
Well... next year the Super Bowl is in a dome isn't it? If they could manage to come up with home field advantage throughout the playoffs then Prince Peyton would have the nice, sterile football conditions which make him the best QB in the NFL.

Rulon Velvet Jones
01-16-2005, 04:35 PM
If my private junk represented the Patriots, then Peyton Manning would be none other than Linda Lovelace.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 04:36 PM
i know you're still sore at manning for destroying the broncos, but let's be real:

the colts are 0-6 against the pats

the colts are 1-7 against Bill Belichick.

the colts are 0-7 in Foxboro

trying to pin this on manning choking is laughable when his WRs have been dropping balls and his line hasn't been able to keep the pressure off. i mean, that's all because of the patriots dominating on defense, but he hardly "choked". his offense got outplayed on many levels, no QB is going to be able to win a game when that happens. he certainly didn't blow this game like bledsoe or plummer have on many occasions, despite the rest of their team playing well.

azbroncfan
01-16-2005, 04:37 PM
I voted no because even though he didn't play great he didn't fumble those two balls and drop passes. His Oline choked it up as well.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:37 PM
Well... next year the Super Bowl is in a dome isn't it? If they could manage to come up with home field advantage throughout the playoffs then Prince Peyton would have the nice, sterile football conditions which make him the best QB in the NFL.

Or, more likely, he'll find a way to piss down his leg in the Playoffs yet again.

Three (3) points today. My goodness. Gonna be hard to spin that one. Don't the Patriots have an injury depleted defense, too?

:kiddingme

I wonder what happened?

http://www.geocities.com/televisioncity/studio/7810/CHOKE.JPG

Clockwork Orange
01-16-2005, 04:37 PM
I see, so Manning gets all the credit when the Colts win and none of the blame when they lose.

Whatever.

Bronx33
01-16-2005, 04:38 PM
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/7738/arrog_heimlichmaneuver.txt

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:41 PM
I see, so Manning gets all the credit when the Colts win and none of the blame when they lose.

Whatever.

Unless I'm misreading the scoreboard, the Colts have scored exactly three (3) points today.

rofl

Oh, nice interception to cap things off. How fitting.

winstoncup bronco
01-16-2005, 04:42 PM
So what can No-ring, I mean Manning, complain about this offseason? Make every team play in a dome?

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:43 PM
Great sign:

Make
Vacation
Plans

rofl

Clockwork Orange
01-16-2005, 04:43 PM
Unless I'm misreading the scoreboard, the Colts have scored exactly three (3) points today.

rofl

Oh, nice interception to cap things off. How fitting.

Exactly. A performance pretty unbecoming of the supposed greatest QB ever and his allegedly unstoppable offense.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 04:44 PM
So what can No-ring, I mean Manning, complain about this offseason? Make every team play in a dome?

Hard to say. All they did was cry and cry and cry last year. What can they cry about this time?

:kiddingme

Maybe, they're upset because they're soft.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 04:47 PM
I see, so Manning gets all the credit when the Colts win and none of the blame when they lose.

Whatever.

i never said that or meant to imply it. most of the credit in the colts/broncos game has to go to wayne and clark. peyton called good plays but the reason it was such a blowout was because wayne (and his blockers) and clark made some incredible catches and plays.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 04:51 PM
i find it surprising that broncos fans are so quick to claim manning sucks blah blah blah because of this game.

are the broncos as bad as the colts made them look in the first round? of course not. the patriots have a great defensive scheme, had a bye week to prepare, played at home, AND made great plays on defense and outplayed manning's offense. of course he's going to look bad, just as the broncos looked bad when they were facing a rested colts team that has their number.

eddie mac
01-16-2005, 04:52 PM
No, IMO The Pats D would've stopped any offense the way they played today especially on their own turf.

Pendejo
01-16-2005, 04:56 PM
I can see Polian working the phones now. "Gawd dammit why don't you make them put a dome over that place, and those chowder heads are too loud. I want Bruschi fined. His fumble recoveries severely hampered our chances of at least being competetive."

Manning was fvcking hapless today. I for one am happy as hell. You're gawd damn right...sour grapes...In the final 30 seconds I was rooting for the Pats to break his ankle...Yeah I'm as classless as Bozo the Schottenheimer issuing bounties on certain goose footed rocket armed quarterbacks...

Shannon Sharpe just had a brilliant take on the post game..."When he had it, did he do anything with it? They were like 25th in time of possesion anyway!!!" I'm glad at least someone isn't doing damage control on Peyton "I've never won a game that meant anything...aside from throwing all over the Chief's pop warner defense, and escaping with a win" Manning.

Jeez it feels good to hate.

Clockwork Orange
01-16-2005, 04:57 PM
i find it surprising that broncos fans are so quick to claim manning sucks blah blah blah because of this game.

are the broncos as bad as the colts made them look in the first round? of course not. the patriots have a great defensive scheme, had a bye week to prepare, played at home, AND made great plays on defense and outplayed manning's offense. of course he's going to look bad, just as the broncos looked bad when they were facing a rested colts team that has their number.

No one is saying that Manning sucks, but what is coming under fire is his ability to come up with a road win in adverse conditions against a good defensive team (the game against KC last year doesn't count, their _efense is horrible).

Also the fact that the Patriots have owned them no matter where they've played. For all of his gaudy numbers, Manning gets outplayed by <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> when it matters the most, over and over again.

After all of the talk about how unstoppable the Colts offense was supposed to be from the media, fans, etc I think they deserve to have their noses rubbed in it a bit. We sure took our lumps after they shredded the Broncos last week, now it's their turn.

Pendejo
01-16-2005, 04:59 PM
i find it surprising that broncos fans are so quick to claim manning sucks blah blah blah because of this game.

are the broncos as bad as the colts made them look in the first round? of course not. the patriots have a great defensive scheme, had a bye week to prepare, played at home, AND made great plays on defense and outplayed manning's offense. of course he's going to look bad, just as the broncos looked bad when they were facing a rested colts team that has their number.

Eat it tea bag.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 05:02 PM
No one is saying that Manning sucks, but what is coming under fire is his ability to come up with a road win in adverse conditions against a good defensive team (the game against KC last year doesn't count, their _efense is horrible).

Also the fact that the Patriots have owned them no matter where they've played. For all of his gaudy numbers, Manning gets outplayed by <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a></a> when it matters the most, over and over again.

After all of the talk about how unstoppable the Colts offense was supposed to be from the media, fans, etc I think they deserve to have their noses rubbed in it a bit. We sure took our lumps after they shredded the Broncos last week, now it's their turn.


well, i think the only game he truly blew it in was the afc championship game last year, and a lot of that again goes to the pats matching up well against him. i think where i disagree with your sentiments about manning is that while i certainly agree the PATS outplay the COLTS every time, i don't think brady outplays manning every time. look at the first regular season game this year. i think manning had a pretty good game (better than brady). the regular season game last year the pats won 38-34, brady had some turnovers late that let the colts back into it and manning played pretty well. manning certainly didn't look good today but how could he have with the way the rest of his offense got outplayed? he didn't choke the game away most certainly and took what he could get with the great D NE played.

WaffleBoy
01-16-2005, 05:05 PM
Slap, the league changed the rules for Manning, the Pats went with their 4th string corners and a wideout, and "professor" Manning still couldn't deliver. No doubt, it was a choke job. No touchdowns, are you kidding me? Sharpe was right. "What did Manning do when he had the ball?" Absolutely nothing!

The Boy Wonder ;)

SoCalBronco
01-16-2005, 05:07 PM
Slap, the league changed the rules for Manning, the Pats went with their 4th string corners and a wideout, and "professor" Manning still couldn't deliver. No doubt, it was a choke job. No touchdowns, are you kidding me? Sharpe was right. "What did Manning do when he had the ball?" Absolutely nothing!

The Boy Wonder ;)

wait a minute waffle, what about all your talk about "The Professor" this and "The Professor" that?

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 05:09 PM
Slap, the league changed the rules for Manning, the Pats went with their 4th string corners and a wideout, and "professor" Manning still couldn't deliver. No doubt, it was a choke job. No touchdowns, are you kidding me? Sharpe was right. "What did Manning do when he had the ball?" Absolutely nothing!

The Boy Wonder ;)

I was joking when I asked how the Manning apologists would spin this latest choke job - because its completely indefensible - but they're already out in force.

rofl

CornStore
01-16-2005, 05:10 PM
Slap, the league changed the rules for Manning, the Pats went with their 4th string corners and a wideout, and "professor" Manning still couldn't deliver. No doubt, it was a choke job. No touchdowns, are you kidding me? Sharpe was right. "What did Manning do when he had the ball?" Absolutely nothing!

The Boy Wonder ;)

actually, choking would be more like what roethlisberger did. almost throwing the game away despite the rest of his offense playing well. the colts offense as a whole got outplayed. manning was moving the ball pretty well at times DESPITE how well NE's defense was playing. but NE's defense also made plays on top of that to force fumbles and dropped passes by the receivers.

the league never changed any rules, either, as much as some of you guys like whining about that. they just made sure blatant holds downfield as in last year's afc championship game wouldn't be overlooked.

WaffleBoy
01-16-2005, 05:11 PM
wait a minute waffle, what about all your talk about "The Professor" this and "The Professor" that?

That was sarcasm, SoCal. I HATE Manning. The league tried their best to give this a guy a SB and make him the greatest qb all time. I am glad Sharpe set Marino straight!

The Boy Wonder ;)

CornStore
01-16-2005, 05:12 PM
I was joking when I asked how the Manning apologists would spin this latest choke job - because its completely indefensible - but they're already out in force.

rofl

elway would have looked as bad vs that defense in foxboro today (with the rest of the colts offense). sorry bud.
and we won't even get into how today's broncos or any other team in the nfl would have fared today. why not just hand it to the pats on a job well done instead of trying to further your anti-manning agenda any chance you can? i don't even like the patriots and i can admit a good job when i see it.

Rohirrim
01-16-2005, 05:13 PM
I wouldn't say that Payaton choked. I'd say he was outcoached. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Pats next year with no Weiss or Romeo. But in this game, I think the Pats D was just too good, and their game plan was perfect, and their execution was perfect. Seems like the standard Belichick playoff game.

Hercules Rockefeller
01-16-2005, 05:17 PM
So what can No-ring, I mean Manning, complain about this offseason? Make every team play in a dome?

No just rip out the grass/field turf and put a track in

WaffleBoy
01-16-2005, 05:18 PM
elway would have looked as bad vs that defense in foxboro today (with the rest of the colts offense). sorry bud.
and we won't even get into how today's broncos or any other team in the nfl would have fared today. why not just hand it to the pats on a job well done instead of trying to further your anti-manning agenda any chance you can? i don't even like the patriots and i can admit a good job when i see it.

What? Manning is not a big game qb. Elway could scramble and his arm could have taken advantage of a bunch of 4th string corners.

And don't bring up supporting casts, because his supporting cast would have been much better just for the simple fact of free agency.

The Boy Wonder ;)

Rock Chalk
01-16-2005, 05:19 PM
didn't you start a thread about names in the title?

:)

He put an underscore _ betwen first and last so it didnt screw the title up.

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 05:23 PM
Hell yeah he did. I don't even need to read the other posts to come to that conclusion. The Colts D showed up and played very good for 3 1/2 quarters. They did their part. But their O stunk up the joint. Who would have thought that would have been the case.

Bronco_Beerslug
01-16-2005, 05:26 PM
He put an underscore _ betwen first and last so it didnt screw the title up.
Only as an after thought. :)

-------------------------------
Nope, Paytown didn't choke. He played OK but the gameplan sucked! What happened to the hurry up? They came out in the 3rd like they were leading big, without fire and a purpose. Receivers dropped passes and fumbled balls all game long. And it's hard to play like an MVP when the defense is smothering your team from all angles.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 05:28 PM
elway would have looked as bad vs that defense in foxboro today (with the rest of the colts offense). sorry bud.
and we won't even get into how today's broncos or any other team in the nfl would have fared today. why not just hand it to the pats on a job well done instead of trying to further your anti-manning agenda any chance you can? i don't even like the patriots and i can admit a good job when i see it.

Manning had a good year, CornStore... and perhaps one day he will earn the privilege of credibly being mentioned in the same breath as one of the league's all-time greats... but to date, he hasn't even led his team to a conference championship yet (a feat Elway had accomplished three times in his first seven seasons as a pro). The "stretch" you're trying to make marginalizes Manning's genuine accomplishments, imho.

Northman
01-16-2005, 05:29 PM
Please, though, start another Slap is an asshole thread if you must, but let's leave this thread strictly for bashing the choking dog that is <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a>.


Oh, and what a glorious day it is my good friends. and thanks again to Tony Dungy for again signing all the offensive players without any real room to improve the defense for at least another year. thanks for the refs for calling that questionable PI call in the 4th as Peyton would of been up in arms about it himself. congrats on your records Peyton and here's to you having many, many more chokejobs without any rings in the future. :woowoo:

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 05:32 PM
Before the Tom Brady hype machine gets going again, I'd like to point out that he was a non-factor today. The Pats got 144 yards out of Dillion, their D holds Manning in check the entire game, they held James to 39 yards rushing, and held them to three points. I don't want to hear about Brady and his 144 yards passing.

Tredici
01-16-2005, 05:32 PM
i never said that or meant to imply it. most of the credit in the colts/broncos game has to go to wayne and clark. peyton called good plays but the reason it was such a blowout was because wayne (and his blockers) and clark made some incredible catches and plays.

Wayne looked real good against a rookie corner. Indy exploited a situation they certainly should've. It wasn't rocket science and there weren't any spectacular catches.

Indy has a distinct advantage in playing in a dome. But it is a huge disadvantage when they have to leave the friendly confines for the real world. Peyton looks as uncomfortable in the elements as Marino always did. They are going to have to earn home field advantage for the duration of the playoffs to insure their success.

OBF1
01-16-2005, 05:33 PM
Payton is not 0-6 vs Brady, He is 0-6 versus the real MASTERMIND in the NFL. Bilicheck is everything we used to think Shanny was, but is the best in the NFL today.

Hats off to a coach that does not blame injury or bad weather and just gets his guys to play at 100% when it really matters.

Tredici
01-16-2005, 05:35 PM
Before the <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> hype machine gets going again, I'd like to point out that he was a non-factor today. The Pats got 144 yards out of Dillion, their D holds Manning in check the entire game, they held James to 39 yards rushing, and held them to three points. I don't want to hear about Brady and his 144 yards passing.

That's great Jason. But he made some key plays when they needed them. Picking up first downs. Completing some critical passes in crap conditions. Again, he got the job done. More than you can say for Peyton.

Northman
01-16-2005, 05:36 PM
the league never changed any rules, either, as much as some of you guys like whining about that. they just made sure blatant holds downfield as in last year's afc championship game wouldn't be overlooked.


LOL, it seems like it didnt matter much. the rules got enforced because of Manning's whining and the Pats ended up crushing them worse than last year to prove a point.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 05:36 PM
Manning had a good year, CornStore... and perhaps one day he will earn the privilege of credibly being mentioned in the same breath as one of the league's all-time greats... but to date, he hasn't even led his team to a conference championship yet (a feat Elway had accomplished three times in his first seven seasons as a pro). The "stretch" you're trying to make marginalizes Manning's genuine accomplishments, imho.

i'm not talking about any long stretch of accomplishments or trying to compare manning's career to elway's. infact, i'm not even a peyton manning fan. it just annoys me to see him get irrationally bashed on this board because some of you guys are bitter about him for whatever reason.

all i meant with that comment is that given the way NE's defense was able to outplay the rest of the colts' offense, NO QUARTERBACK, not even one as good as elway would have looked good. manning wasn't the one failing to tackle dillon, or the one fumbling caught balls, or killing drives with dropped passes. no qb can overcome that, not manning, not elway, not montana, and not even jim kelly =P

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 05:37 PM
Well... next year the Super Bowl is in a dome isn't it? If they could manage to come up with home field advantage throughout the playoffs then Prince Peyton would have the nice, sterile football conditions which make him the best QB in the NFL.

Rep for this one. If the Colts got to play all 16 games in a dome, they'd be 16-0. Get them outside in the cold and they struggle. Even in the snow game a couple of years back at Mile High, the Broncos slowed their O down a lot. I think both teams scored in the low 20s, and it became a battle between the kickers late in the game. The Colts need homefield advantage more than any other team in the league.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 05:38 PM
Wayne looked real good against a rookie corner. Indy exploited a situation they certainly should've. It wasn't rocket science and there weren't any spectacular catches.

Indy has a distinct advantage in playing in a dome. But it is a huge disadvantage when they have to leave the friendly confines for the real world. Peyton looks as uncomfortable in the elements as Marino always did. They are going to have to earn home field advantage for the duration of the playoffs to insure their success.


i don't disagree about the dome/road thing. but despite playing on the road, vs a well rested team with an extra week to prepare, manning STILL moved the ball pretty well ... his receviers let him down with drops and fumbles.

and about the colts/broncos game. there was a diving catch wayne amde on an overthrown ball if i recall, and a ball clark tipped to himself and caught in a pretty incredible fashion. certainly they weren't all like that but manning did get bailed out by his receivers many times (and certainly all those YAC have to go to the linemen/WRs making blocks etc, not manning). but the reverse happened today -- credit ne, but don't blame manning.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 05:41 PM
i'm not talking about any long stretch of accomplishments or trying to compare manning's career to elway's. infact, i'm not even a <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> fan. it just annoys me to see him get irrationally bashed on this board because some of you guys are bitter about him for whatever reason.

all i meant with that comment is that given the way NE's defense was able to outplay the rest of the colts' offense, NO QUARTERBACK, not even one as good as elway would have looked good. manning wasn't the one failing to tackle dillon, or the one fumbling caught balls, or killing drives with dropped passes. no qb can overcome that, not manning, not elway, not montana, and not even jim kelly =P

Some of us simply view the ringless Peyton as... dare I say it.... overrated...

Perhaps if the sports media didn't devote quite so much time to Colts buttkissing, that might not be the case... but as has already been observed on the forum today, Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.

Bronx33
01-16-2005, 05:43 PM
colts went into todays game with no fire no emotion no nothing the cards could have beat the colts today...............

Northman
01-16-2005, 05:43 PM
Some of us simply view the ringless Peyton as... dare I say it.... overrated...

Perhaps if the sports media didn't devote quite so much time to Colts buttkissing, that might not be the case... but as has already been observed on the forum today, Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.


Rep, the commissioner must be in total agony right now cause his poster boy is ousted once again.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 05:44 PM
Some of us simply view the ringless Peyton as... dare I say it.... overrated...

Perhaps if the sports media didn't devote quite so much time to Colts buttkissing, that might not be the case... but as has already been observed on the forum today, Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.


elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great tom brady is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.

Dean DuPree
01-16-2005, 05:44 PM
Coaches and quarterbacks get too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. Boy this old bromide is so true during this last week.

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 05:49 PM
Some of us simply view the ringless Peyton as... dare I say it.... overrated...

Perhaps if the sports media didn't devote quite so much time to Colts buttkissing, that might not be the case... but as has already been observed on the forum today, Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.



I wouldn't say overraed. But I would say Dan Marino.

Marino is a top 10 QB of all time, and a great argument can be made that he's in the top 5. Some could even say he's in the top 3. Manning will go down as a great QB. But more than likely ringless.

Northman
01-16-2005, 05:51 PM
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.


Elway was never seen as overrated because he could take over a game by himself whereas Peyton cannot and that is evident. its not Peyton's fault that he isnt a mobile Qb but thats just how it is. even if his receivers are dropping passes he needed to find a way to substain drives and any cost and he just didnt find a way to do it. Even though it took adding some more talent to Elways team he still managed to get to the Super Bowl 3 times carrying the team on his back. thats why Elway is or was never overrated.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 05:51 PM
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.

As was noted above, Elway wasn't ringless, CornStore. While the SB ring was missing until January of 1998, he did have three AFC Championship rings by the end of his seventh year in the league. And yes, some football fans did consider him overrated. Broncos fans were not among that group, however. We'd seen too many fantastic comebacks for that.

As to the Brady hype... part of the reason the Pats had a "chip on their shoulder" today was the media treating them like an afterthought. As long as the Pats are defending SB champions, they've earned the hype imho.

WaffleBoy
01-16-2005, 05:54 PM
Jim Nantz clearly wanted a Colts victory so bad he could taste it.

Rep, I thought I was the only one sensing that. The media wants Manning to be the greatest qb ever. He just isn't.

The Boy Wonder ;)

Tredici
01-16-2005, 05:54 PM
i'm not talking about any long stretch of accomplishments or trying to compare manning's career to elway's. infact, i'm not even a <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> fan. it just annoys me to see him get irrationally bashed on this board because some of you guys are bitter about him for whatever reason.

all i meant with that comment is that given the way NE's defense was able to outplay the rest of the colts' offense, NO QUARTERBACK, not even one as good as elway would have looked good. manning wasn't the one failing to tackle dillon, or the one fumbling caught balls, or killing drives with dropped passes. no qb can overcome that, not manning, not elway, not montana, and not even jim kelly =P

You find what you are looking for. You want to be annoyed. I don't think there is one person on this board "bitter" about Peyton Manning. If you had been around longer than a few weeks you would know there has been ongoing debate about Peyton's abilities for about three seasons.

Could some of the problems you mention Indy having been mitigated by some leadership and determination? QB's can overcome and influence the play of the rest of the team.

One of my long held observations about Peyton is he is a perfectionist. And as long as the gameplan moves along in perfect fashion he is automatic. He doesn't respond well to adversity. I think Vanderjagt was right when he commented on no emotion coming from the QB. But what does he know? He's just an idiot liquored up kicker.

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 05:55 PM
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.

There is one big difference between Elway the first 14 years of his career, and Manning. Elway took a bunch of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Manning has all the weapons, but he can barely get to the AFC Championship game. Elway got the Broncos to the AFC Championship game four times during his first 14 years, winning it three times. Put Elway on this Colts team, with all those weapons, and they smash the Pats today. Elway would have handled that pressure and got the ball to the receivers. If he could get the ball to the Three Amigos in the Dawg Pound, I'm sure he could have gotten the ball to three 1000 yard WRs in New England.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 05:55 PM
As was noted above, Elway wasn't ringless, CornStore. While the SB ring was missing until January of 1998, he did have three AFC Championship rings by the end of his seventh year in the league. And yes, some football fans did consider him overrated. Broncos fans were not among that group, however. We'd seen too many fantastic comebacks for that.

As to the Brady hype... part of the reason the Pats had a "chip on their shoulder" today was the media treating them like an afterthought. As long as the Pats are defending SB champions, they've earned the hype imho.

you said it yourself, the key phrase is that the PATS have earned the hype. but people constantly compare brady to manning and claim brady is superior when that is clearly not the case. the pats are superior, though classless.

and as for the whole ringless thing, making the cutoff at "conference championship" is pretty arbitrary. the point is it's an invalid criticism, since manning certainly helps the colts win. it's not his fault he met a team today that played lights out defense vs his offense ... and elway today wouldn't have advanced either.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 05:55 PM
Elway was never seen as overrated because he could take over a game by himself whereas Peyton cannot and that is evident. its not Peyton's fault that he isnt a mobile Qb but thats just how it is. even if his receivers are dropping passes he needed to find a way to substain drives and any cost and he just didnt find a way to do it. Even though it took adding some more talent to Elways team he still managed to get to the Super Bowl 3 times carrying the team on his back. thats why Elway is or was never overrated.

Good point, Anubis... you put an in-his-prime Elway out there against the Pats... with 3 1,000+ yard WRs to catch the ball and I'm simply not buying the notion that he could not have gotten the job done. Of course, Harrison, Wayne, and Stokely might have been sporting an "Elway cross" by the end of the day...

Northman
01-16-2005, 05:57 PM
There is one big difference between Elway the first 14 years of his career, and Manning. Elway took a bunch of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Manning has all the weapons, but he can barely get to the AFC Championship game. Elway got the Broncos to the AFC Championship game four times during his first 14 years, winning it three times. Put Elway on this Colts team, with all those weapons, and they smash the Pats today. Elway would have handled that pressure and got the ball to the receivers. If he could get the ball to the Three Amigos in the Dawg Pound, I'm sure he could have gotten the ball to three 1000 yard WRs in New England.


Not too mention that Elway was no dome Qb, he was used to the elements of being outside. i totally agree with your post here.

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 05:57 PM
As to the Brady hype... part of the reason the Pats had a "chip on their shoulder" today was the media treating them like an afterthought. As long as the Pats are defending SB champions, they've earned the hype imho.

I don't have a problem with the Pats as a team getting the hype. I'm just sick of hearing "Brady wins", when the entire team went out and played their guts out.

Northman
01-16-2005, 05:58 PM
you said it yourself, the key phrase is that the PATS have earned the hype. but people constantly compare brady to manning and claim brady is superior when that is clearly not the case. the pats are superior, though classless.

and as for the whole ringless thing, making the cutoff at "conference championship" is pretty arbitrary. the point is it's an invalid criticism, since manning certainly helps the colts win. it's not his fault he met a team today that played lights out defense vs his offense ... and elway today wouldn't have advanced either.


Ive actually never heard that comparison. the one thing that i keep hearing about the Pats is that its a TEAM effort and frankly, i would have to agree.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 05:58 PM
You find what you are looking for. You want to be annoyed. I don't think there is one person on this board "bitter" about <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a>. If you had been around longer than a few weeks you would know there has been ongoing debate about Peyton's abilities for about three seasons.

Could some of the problems you mention Indy having been mitigated by some leadership and determination? QB's can overcome and influence the play of the rest of the team.

One of my long held observations about Peyton is he is a perfectionist. And as long as the gameplan moves along in perfect fashion he is automatic. He doesn't respond well to adversity. I think Vanderjagt was right when he commented on no emotion coming from the QB. But what does he know? He's just an idiot liquored up kicker.


i dunno, how did peyton manage to come back vs the bucs after trailing by 21 points? he certainly did some leading there in the most impossible situation. or when he lead the team to a win against the chargers, they ahd certainly been stifling the colts gameplan all day. i don't think that's a particularly valid criticism of manning. the guy is a perfectionist but how is taht a bad thing? i think the rest of his offense would agree he is a good leader and he's done things on the field to prove that.

as for today's game and pinning the other mistakes on peyton, maybe you're right and he could have compensated for the offense's flatness but this is pretty tough to argue about. maybe the offense really was jsut flat.

and dude, there really are a lot of people here bitter about manning ...

anyway i have to go, but good posts by everyone here

CornStore
01-16-2005, 06:00 PM
Good point, Anubis... you put an in-his-prime Elway out there against the Pats... with 3 1,000+ yard WRs to catch the ball and I'm simply not buying the notion that he could not have gotten the job done. Of course, Harrison, Wayne, and Stokely might have been sporting an "Elway cross" by the end of the day...

this is homerism end of story. sorry but it really is. did you watch the game today? no one was doing anything to that defense, and those 1000 yd receivers would have fumbled if elway was throwing to them as well.

bendog
01-16-2005, 06:01 PM
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.
But the Duke took teams to the dance three times that had even less d than the babyjackasses, and not even half Payaton's offensive weapons. Please, do us all a huge favor, and don't put Payaton and the Duke in the same post again, ever.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 06:02 PM
you said it yourself, the key phrase is that the PATS have earned the hype. but people constantly compare brady to manning and claim brady is superior when that is clearly not the case. the pats are superior, though classless.

and as for the whole ringless thing, making the cutoff at "conference championship" is pretty arbitrary. the point is it's an invalid criticism, since manning certainly helps the colts win. it's not his fault he met a team today that played lights out defense vs his offense ... and elway today wouldn't have advanced either.

Brady has the jewelry to support the claim of superiority, CornStore. Today, he got the job done; Manning did not.

If I am not mistaken, rings are given for conference championships and for league championships. Therefore, "ringless" would refer to lack of wins in either the AFCC or SB, would it not?

One cannot say definitively that Elway would or would not have advanced today because he was never in the situation. One can only speculate... and opinions are going to vary on the subject (you are likely to be outnumbered on a Broncos board... :P)

shakenbake
01-16-2005, 06:03 PM
this thing goes way back further than just his Pro Career. 3 of the years he was in Tenn. his team was a top 5 college program and picked to win a championship but he couldn't beat Florida. the year after he left the Vols won a national championship. Now 7 years in the league great numbers and still he doesn't make it to the big dance. when steve spurrier was told that he was gonna come back to play his senior season at Tenn. he said "I guess he wants to be the first quarterback to lead his team to 4 straight citrus bowls".

Northman
01-16-2005, 06:03 PM
this is homerism end of story. sorry but it really is. did you watch the game today? no one was doing anything to that defense, and those 1000 yd receivers would have fumbled if elway was throwing to them as well.


You have just solidified your status as a idiot. this isnt homerism as Elway is a ****ing Hall of Famer. get off our board with this bull****.

Bronx33
01-16-2005, 06:04 PM
There is one big difference between Elway the first 14 years of his career, and Manning. Elway took a bunch of nobodies to the Super Bowl three times. Manning has all the weapons, but he can barely get to the AFC Championship game. Elway got the Broncos to the AFC Championship game four times during his first 14 years, winning it three times. Put Elway on this Colts team, with all those weapons, and they smash the Pats today. Elway would have handled that pressure and got the ball to the receivers. If he could get the ball to the Three Amigos in the Dawg Pound, I'm sure he could have gotten the ball to three 1000 yard WRs in New England.



All in all peyton is not mobile elways was and i agree elway would have found a way to ge the ball where it needed to be,peyton on the other hand was waiting for something to happen.

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 06:04 PM
Nobody is saying Manning isn't a good QB. That would be like saying Marino isn't a good QB. But some QBs just aren't champions. Manning isn't one. The heat came and he couldn't handle it. Elway always delt with the pressure. Step up in the pocket, or roll out. He bought himself more time. Manning didn't do that today.

I'd even say that Vick could have won today with the Colts. Mobile QBs can get away from the pressure and make plays. Manning is a statue. He can't take the pressure. Young, Montana, Elway, and even a few QBs from today like McNabb, Culpepper, a healthy McNair, could have done a lot better than Manning because all of those QBs could avoid the rush. Guys like Manning and Marino always need a great O line to win. Sometimes even a great O line will have a bad day. That happened to the Colts O line today. On those days it's up to the QB to pick up the slack instead of blame them.

Candy Cigarettes
01-16-2005, 06:07 PM
this is homerism end of story. sorry but it really is. did you watch the game today? no one was doing anything to that defense, and those 1000 yd receivers would have fumbled if elway was throwing to them as well.
Did YOU watch the game today? Manning was shaking his head early in the third quarter and had a deer in the headlights glaze in his eyes. Whether you think you're going to win or not, you don't show it. QB is the leader and Manning is not a great leader. He is a great passer, but that is different than being a leader. Elway would have put players on his back if he had to just to win a Superbowl. Manning just doesn't have that in him yet. Will he develop leadership qualities? Doubtful, you either have it or you don't. It's not something you can fake.

Kaylore
01-16-2005, 06:07 PM
elway was ringless until the end. was he overrated that entire time? teams win championships, not single players, and evaluating a qb on being ringless when overall he's done far more to help the team potentially reach a super bowl than detract from it is just self serving bitterness, in my opinion. the media certainly does its fair share of ballwashing about new england and how great <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> is despite the fact that a lot of his wins has been him being bailed out by his team and not vice versa. they certainly ballwashed elway a lot back in the day too. the media is silly, doesn't detract from the players they choose to kiss up to.
While you might be right about the "team" thing, you can still target Manning for tanking his team's cap room with that huge contract he signed. Compare that to Brady who restrcutured his to keep good talent on all three teams and you can see why some are better players than others.

Manning had some crap plays this time, too. Many of his passes were off and he threw off his back foot on some occations. He did have quite a few passes right on target that were dropped, though. They just couldn't handle the physicality of New England AND the weather.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 06:09 PM
this is homerism end of story. sorry but it really is. did you watch the game today? no one was doing anything to that defense, and those 1000 yd receivers would have fumbled if elway was throwing to them as well.

Opinions vary... what you see as "homerism" is simply calling it like I saw it from my perspective. If I happen to have orange-n-blue shades on, that's perfectly OK.

Yes, I saw the game. And I thought the Pats defense did a good job against Peyton's offense. Elway's offense would have been a "horse of a different color" however... he would have brought different things to the table than Peyton due to differing QB styles.

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 06:10 PM
0-6 against <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a></a>.

1-7 against Bill Belichick.

0-7 in Foxboro.


You jsut stated why it isn't a choke job. Colts can't beat the Patriots, plain and simple. Had it beenr eversed, say Manning is 7-1 against Belichick and 6-0 against Brady, then yes, he choked big time, but Patriots are the Colts' kryptonite out there.

Also, Colts were not favored to win this game, hence Patriots being the #2 seed and Colts a 3 seed. Patriots did what they were supposed to do, and thats win the game.

Losing to a better team with a better seed at their stadium isn't a choke job.

The Big E
01-16-2005, 06:10 PM
The thing that got me was the defeated, hangdog look Payton had, even before the game was out of reach. I just never had the feeling that he was going to rise up and find a way to overcome the obstacles and win. Normally I believe he can and will win, but the body language just wasn't there today, and I can't help but believe that his teammates fed off his sorry, self-pitying ass. The D did their job.

Northman
01-16-2005, 06:11 PM
You jsut stated why it isn't a choke job. Colts can't beat the Patriots, plain and simple. Had it beenr eversed, say Manning is 7-1 against Belichick and 6-0 against Brady, then yes, he choked big time, but Patriots are the Colts' kryptonite out there.

Also, Colts were not favored to win this game, hence Patriots being the #2 seed and Colts a 3 seed. Patriots did what they were supposed to do, and thats win the game.

Losing to a better team with a better seed at their stadium isn't a choke job.

HOMER.

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 06:12 PM
this is homerism end of story. sorry but it really is. did you watch the game today? no one was doing anything to that defense, and those 1000 yd receivers would have fumbled if elway was throwing to them as well.


Why wouldn't Elway have been able to win today? It's not like the Pats put up 40 points on the board. The Pats were sitting on 13 points after 3 1/2 quarters. Are you saying that the Pats D is so great that Elway couldn't have produced more than 13 points, with three 1000 yard WR and a 1500 yard RB, through the first 3 1/2 quarters? That's a complete joke. The Pats had a good rush, but it wasn't that damn good. Elway had a way of making plays even behind a bad O line. The Colts have a good O line. Elway would have been able to make plays today.

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 06:15 PM
HOMER.

As I'm sure everyone hating Manning has nothing to do with their deciding vote.

Dean DuPree
01-16-2005, 06:18 PM
Elway might have played like crap during quarters one through three but during crunch time he would come through. Each and every player on the Broncos sideline knew that he would.

Northman
01-16-2005, 06:19 PM
As I'm sure everyone hating Manning has nothing to do with their deciding vote.


Oh, im sure there is a few who hate him but im also sure there is some objective voters. :)

dsmoot
01-16-2005, 06:24 PM
What? Manning is not a big game qb. Elway could scramble and his arm could have taken advantage of a bunch of 4th string corners.

And don't bring up supporting casts, because his supporting cast would have been much better just for the simple fact of free agency.

The Boy Wonder ;)

I did not read every message in this thread. Difference between last week and this week. Manning got pressure this week. Look how pressure on the QB can make a defensive backfield look better. Situation Broncos - get pressure on the quarterback.

Traveler
01-16-2005, 06:25 PM
Did Manning choke? Not really. The Colts defense got exposed for what it is...average. Just as Denver was exposed last weekend. Certain teams seem to have each other number. And see how pressure can disrupt Manning?

As we used to beat NE all those years with Bledsoe, the Pats seem to have the Colts number. Think it was stated in numerous threads this week, defense wins championships. Until the Colts upgrade that side of the ball, they'll continually get exposed during the playoffs.

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 06:27 PM
One play that shows Mannings inability to make plays was in the redzone at the end of the first half. They must have been on the five yard line or so. Manning drops back. Can't find anybody. The pass rush is coming. Now it's time for him to make a play. He steps up. He had a lane that he could have run through. He looked like he was thinking about it, but then he probably remembered that he's the slowest guy on the field. So he tries to throw the ball into the endzone, and it's damn near picked off.

If Elway had been in that situation, there's no telling what he would have done. Maybe he steps up and runs. He could have dipped his shoulder and tried to run over who even was in the way (he did that a number of times). Maybe he rolls out and runs, or finds somebody that changes their pattern. Maybe he steps up impales the ball in his WR's chest (Mark Jackson said the TD he caught to end "The Drive", the ball stuck to him, he didn't really catch it). What ever Elway would have done, it would have looked a lot better than what Manning did, and it would have had a great chance of ending up as a TD.

Jason in LA
01-16-2005, 06:31 PM
Did Manning choke? Not really. The Colts defense got exposed for what it is...average. Just as Denver was exposed last weekend. Certain teams seem to have each other number. And see how pressure can disrupt Manning?

As we used to beat NE all those years with Bledsoe, the Pats seem to have the Colts number. Think it was stated in numerous threads this week, defense wins championships. Until the Colts upgrade that side of the ball, they'll continually get exposed during the playoffs.

I wouldn't say the Colts D was exposed. I'd say they played much better than expected. They go in there and hold the Pats to 6 points at the half, and 13 at the end of 3 quarters. But their O failed them. Left them on the field all game long. If the Colts O would have shown up their D would have held the Pats in check the entire game.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 06:33 PM
I did not read every message in this thread. Difference between last week and this week. Manning got pressure this week. Look how pressure on the QB can make a defensive backfield look better. Situation Broncos - get pressure on the quarterback.

Defensive pressure was no doubt a factor... but I think so was the venue. I'd fully expect Peyton and the Colts to have performed at a much higher level in their own element... in a dome, on astroturf and with the friendly home crowd... than they did on the road, on grass, in a snowstorm, in an inhospitable stadium.

The outcome of today's game might have been different had the Colts won enough games to have homefield advantage.

Or Belichick's ownership might have still remained just as valid... ;D

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 06:39 PM

Hogan11
01-16-2005, 07:10 PM
Seeing him lose today was a beautiful thing......I love seeing him hang his head.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 07:21 PM
Why wouldn't Elway have been able to win today? It's not like the Pats put up 40 points on the board. The Pats were sitting on 13 points after 3 1/2 quarters. Are you saying that the Pats D is so great that Elway couldn't have produced more than 13 points, with three 1000 yard WR and a 1500 yard RB, through the first 3 1/2 quarters? That's a complete joke. The Pats had a good rush, but it wasn't that damn good. Elway had a way of making plays even behind a bad O line. The Colts have a good O line. Elway would have been able to make plays today.

dude, the colts wide receivers were covered. edgerrin james got stuffed his fair share. the new england defense forced turnovers WHEN IT WAS OUT OF THE QBS HANDS. i guess wide receivers wouldn't have dropped perfect passes if elway had thrown them, he's so special. ig uess they wouldn't have fumbled becuase elway would have "led" them to not fumble. i guess elway would have scrambled and found a way to throw it to COVERED receivers. you guys really hate manning and are obviously elway homers, if elway was going to "carry his team" to wins when the rest of his offense was outplayed why didn't he win all the time? why did he lose 3 super bowls before a team was built around him? why did he lose his share of afc playoff games to teams MUCH WORSE than the current new england team? no qb playing today would have been able to make up for the rest of the matchups out there.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 07:23 PM
One play that shows Mannings inability to make plays was in the redzone at the end of the first half. They must have been on the five yard line or so. Manning drops back. Can't find anybody. The pass rush is coming. Now it's time for him to make a play. He steps up. He had a lane that he could have run through. He looked like he was thinking about it, but then he probably remembered that he's the slowest guy on the field. So he tries to throw the ball into the endzone, and it's damn near picked off.

If Elway had been in that situation, there's no telling what he would have done. Maybe he steps up and runs. He could have dipped his shoulder and tried to run over who even was in the way (he did that a number of times). Maybe he rolls out and runs, or finds somebody that changes their pattern. Maybe he steps up impales the ball in his WR's chest (Mark Jackson said the TD he caught to end "The Drive", the ball stuck to him, he didn't really catch it). What ever Elway would have done, it would have looked a lot better than what Manning did, and it would have had a great chance of ending up as a TD.


most hilarious post ever. time was running down in the half, running for the end zone was hardly a sure thing. he gets tackled and they don't put up ANY points in a 6-0 game.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 07:24 PM
again i'm not even trying to compare elway to manning or anything like that. i'm only talking about this one game, vs new england, in these conditions, at foxboro, with the rest of the offense outmatched the way it was. maybe elway plays better than manning, but he still wouldn't have done anything that remotely resembled "looking good".

Bronx33
01-16-2005, 07:27 PM
again i'm not even trying to compare elway to manning or anything like that. i'm only talking about this one game, vs new england, in these conditions, at foxboro, with the rest of the offense outmatched the way it was. maybe elway plays better than manning, but he still wouldn't have done anything that remotely resembled "looking good".



Who cares cornhole! and how on gods green earth would you know anyways? truth is you dont ! no one does!

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 07:28 PM
I love the way the apologists twist back and forth to protect poor widdle Peyton. First they say nobody could have beaten this great New England defense today. Then they say Colts receivers were dropping passes when they were open.

Which is it?

Doesn't matter, just as long as Peyton gets a fresh round of excuses.

rofl

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 07:29 PM
Again, losing to a better team with a better seed at their stadium is not choking.

Bronx33
01-16-2005, 07:30 PM
I love the way the apologists twist back and forth to protect poor widdle Peyton. First they say nobody could have beaten this great New England defense today. Then they say Colts receivers were dropping passes when they were open.

Which is it?

Doesn't matter, just as long as Peyton gets a fresh round of excuses.

rofl


Isnt that the truth.............. :)

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 07:34 PM
Again, losing to a better team with a better seed at their stadium is not choking.

Not even showing up when you already have a reputation for getting whipped by a particular team is indeed choking.

The very worst kind of choking.......:yep:

CornStore
01-16-2005, 07:35 PM
I love the way the apologists twist back and forth to protect poor widdle Peyton. First they say nobody could have beaten this great New England defense today. Then they say Colts receivers were dropping passes when they were open.

Which is it?

Doesn't matter, just as long as Peyton gets a fresh round of excuses.

rofl

i specifically said no other QB WITH the rest of the colts offense today, which includes the drops. so no contradiction there, try again. seems like you're the one digging and stretching to try and pin a nonexistent "choke job" on manning. the drops were also partially a result of the new england D's pressure on the WRs.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 07:35 PM
dude, the colts wide receivers were covered. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133320" target="_blank">Edgerrin James</a> got stuffed his fair share. the new england defense forced turnovers WHEN IT WAS OUT OF THE QBS HANDS. i guess wide receivers wouldn't have dropped perfect passes if elway had thrown them, he's so special. ig uess they wouldn't have fumbled becuase elway would have "led" them to not fumble. i guess elway would have scrambled and found a way to throw it to COVERED receivers. you guys really hate manning and are obviously elway homers, if elway was going to "carry his team" to wins when the rest of his offense was outplayed why didn't he win all the time? why did he lose 3 super bowls before a team was built around him? why did he lose his share of afc playoff games to teams MUCH WORSE than the current new england team? no qb playing today would have been able to make up for the rest of the matchups out there.

Judging by his performance yesterday, I'm not sure one can definitively say Michael Vick would not have made up for the other matchups... his mobility adds another dimension to the offense.

Oh and btw, if memory serves me correctly, Elway's Broncos won more AFC playoff games than they lost.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 07:37 PM
Not even showing up when you already have a reputation for getting whipped by a particuler team is indeed choking.

The very worst kind of choking.......:yep:

yeah, except that would be the COLTS choking, not peyton alone. keep stretching and changing up your "argument" (if you can even call "HAHA PEYTON CHOKED LOL" an argument) so it suits your anti manning agenda.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 07:41 PM
Judging by his performance yesterday, I'm not sure one can definitively say <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253" target="_blank">Michael Vick</a> would not have made up for the other matchups... his mobility adds another dimension to the offense.

Oh and btw, if memory serves me correctly, Elway's Broncos won more AFC playoff games than they lost.

over the past two years it looks like the colts have won 3 and lost 2? how does that make any difference? and as for vick, he was playing the SAINT LOUIS RAMS. you're comparing the freaking rams at home to the new england patriots playing lights out after a bye at foxboro in the snow. yeah vick would have destroyed them. cough. you people will grasp at any ridiculous thing to make manning look bad. do those broncos losses hurt THAT much? jeez. your team doesn't match up well against peyton and the colts offense, move on, it's no big deal.

Northman
01-16-2005, 07:47 PM
over the past two years it looks like the colts have won 3 and lost 2? how does that make any difference? and as for vick, he was playing the SAINT LOUIS RAMS. you're comparing the freaking rams at home to the new england patriots playing lights out after a bye at foxboro in the snow. yeah vick would have destroyed them. cough. you people will grasp at any ridiculous thing to make manning look bad. do those broncos losses hurt THAT much? jeez. your team doesn't match up well against peyton and the colts offense, move on, it's no big deal.


Talk about stretching. the Pats secondary has been slaughtered with injuries to even the point of having a receiver performing db duties. face it Cornhole, your posterboy didnt get it done and did nothing to try and substain any drives. hell, the Colts receivers dropped SOME passes but not all of them. the Colts defense held up their end so what is left? the Colts average 40 points a game. and how bout the first game this year at Foxboro? 24 points scored by Manning and company against all the defensive starters. do yourself a favor and stay off the crack, its eating your brain.

Drek
01-16-2005, 07:47 PM
He didn't choke, he and the rest of the Colts just aren't on the same level as the Pats. They got beat down by a much better team in every respect of the game, simple as that. You can't choke when you weren't likely to win from the start.

Times like this makes me happy to have the Pats. Being a New Englander I'll always be a fan of them, and Bellicheck is what a football coach should be.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 07:58 PM
over the past two years it looks like the colts have won 3 and lost 2? how does that make any difference? and as for vick, he was playing the SAINT LOUIS RAMS. you're comparing the freaking rams at home to the new england patriots playing lights out after a bye at foxboro in the snow. yeah vick would have destroyed them. cough. you people will grasp at any ridiculous thing to make manning look bad. do those broncos losses hurt THAT much? jeez. your team doesn't match up well against peyton and the colts offense, move on, it's no big deal.

I don't need to "grasp at anything to make manning look bad". He did a damn good job of that himself today. :pfbbt:

As for Vick, he played the opponent on his schedule. And I notice you didn't address the speculation that his mobility might have added another dimension to the offense.

Oh... and a quick check of records at profootballreference.com shows that the Elway years featured 17 AFC playoff games... 5 of them losses; 12 wins.
http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/denindex.htm

CornStore
01-16-2005, 07:59 PM
Talk about stretching. the Pats secondary has been slaughtered with injuries to even the point of having a receiver performing db duties. face it Cornhole, your posterboy didnt get it done and did nothing to try and substain any drives. hell, the Colts receivers dropped SOME passes but not all of them. the Colts defense held up their end so what is left? the Colts average 40 points a game. and how bout the first game this year at Foxboro? 24 points scored by Manning and company against all the defensive starters. do yourself a favor and stay off the crack, its eating your brain.

they dropped 5 passes. that's enough to kill 5 drives. manning was infact moving them down the field several times despite that. yes, they scored 24, and that was because THE REST OF THE OFFENSE played better. manning's play wasn't significantly worse from that game, the pats played much better and the receivers played much worse.

Northman
01-16-2005, 08:01 PM
Oh... and a quick check of records at profootballreference.com shows that the Elway years featured 17 AFC playoff games... 5 of them losses; 12 wins.


Ouch Cornhole, i think you need to go change your shorts as you just got OWNED!. Hilarious!

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:02 PM
I don't need to "grasp at anything to make manning look bad". He did a damn good job of that himself today. :pfbbt:

As for Vick, he played the opponent on his schedule. And I notice you didn't address the speculation that his mobility might have added another dimension to the offense.

Oh... and a quick check of records at profootballreference.com shows that the Elway years featured 17 AFC playoff games... 5 of them losses; 12 wins.
http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/denindex.htm

i didn't address it because you were attempting to make an unfair comparison. vick adds another dimension, sure, but he's also a much much worse passer and playcaller. compare peerless price's numbers to stokley's numbers and you'll see that the pats would have an easier time stopping vick than they did manning.

the colts looked bad, but no one except diehard manning haters like you are pinning it all on manning and calling it a choke job. so yes, you are grasping.

and again you bring up playoffs win/loss like it matters. jeez, i was talking about elway playing against the NEW ENGLAND TEAM in this ONE GAME. not how great they've been over their careers or what their win/loss is in the playoffs. i'm sure those 5 losses were all to teams much worse than these patriots, while they seem to be the only team capable of stopping peyton consistently.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:03 PM
Ouch Cornhole, i think you need to go change your shorts as you just got OWNED!. Hilarious!

what a surprise. one manning hater/homer congratulating another because their faulty argument can't stand on its own.

congrats, have a cookie. maybe if you say i got owned a few more times it'll make it true.

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 08:03 PM
Not even showing up when you already have a reputation for getting whipped by a particular team is indeed choking.

The very worst kind of choking.......:yep:

Still dont see how a team that was not favored to win is considered choking when they did in fact lose.

Pinning a 17 point loss on 1 guy is even more puzzling.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:04 PM
above it should read .. "those 5 losses weren't all to teams much better than the pats"

it's possible he lost to some really good team, but i'm sure some of the losses were to worse teams.

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 08:05 PM
He didn't choke, he and the rest of the Colts just aren't on the same level as the Pats. They got beat down by a much better team in every respect of the game, simple as that. You can't choke when you weren't likely to win from the start.

Times like this makes me happy to have the Pats. Being a New Englander I'll always be a fan of them, and Bellicheck is what a football coach should be.

ding! ding! ding!

Northman
01-16-2005, 08:10 PM
what a surprise. one manning hater/homer congratulating another because their faulty argument can't stand on its own.

congrats, have a cookie. maybe if you say i got owned a few more times it'll make it true.


Nothing you have said backs up any of your statements. 5 dropped passes is hardly a game killer. why doesnt Manning make some plays on his own? where is the killer instinct we always here about Manning? Meanwhile, i backed up all my posts with facts including a injured riddled defense that Manning could not take advantage of after scoring 24 the previous time in Foxboro. then, to top it all off you try and compare the ability that Elway had to what Manning has. there is no Comparison cause Elway was ten times the Qb that Manning is and his records and Career has shown that. furthermore, how bout Manning's whining from last year? it got him what he wanted, there was no blatant holding on the Pats Dbacks this year.

Just suck it up Cornhole, your arguement is weak and full of holes that you cannot back up with any solid facts. this wasnt like the game was out of reach since the get go, it was only 6-3 up until 3 minutes left of the 3rd. Manning had multiple opportunities to get something done and yet failed.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:14 PM
5 dropped passes is hardly a game killer? ROFL omfg. i guess the seahawks should have won the super bowl then! my god man. how many times did the colts receivers drop balls against the broncos? 5 is HUGE FOR ANY TEAM, MUCH MORESO FOR THE COLTS LEVEL OF SKILL AND STYLE OF OFFENSE.

why doesn't manning make some plays on his own? what did you expect him to do? rush for 300 yards and 4 touchdowns? he's a passer.

you didn't back up anything. the COLTS as a TEAM put up 24 previously. that game was played under different circumstances -- no snow, not after a bye week for belicheck without one for the colts. did it occur to you that belicheck could have disguised some of his defensive schemes that game so he could use them in the playoffs? did it occur to you that the colts would have put up points today as well if the REST OF THE OFFENSE had played up to par? oh, no, you want to blame it all on manning,a nd you post "facts" that fail to illustrate anything.

"elway was ten times the qb manning is" -- well i guess this must be true too, you said so! after all, look at all the seasons elway threw for 50 touchdown passes. it wasn't like PLUMMER passed his stats or anything.

the colts offense as a whole failed, and until you can point out how exactly manning failed to perform or made crucial mistakes, your posts in this thread will continue to be jokes.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:17 PM
"5 dropped passes and 2 fumbles is hardly a game killer" "peyton should have overcome those mistakes and rushed for 700 yards to win" "he didn't, what a CHOKER, elway would have done that!"

hilarious stuff, keep it coming!

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 08:22 PM
5 dropped passes is hardly a game killer? ROFL omfg. i guess the seahawks should have won the super bowl then! my god man. how many times did the colts receivers drop balls against the broncos? 5 is HUGE FOR ANY TEAM, MUCH MORESO FOR THE COLTS LEVEL OF SKILL AND STYLE OF OFFENSE.

why doesn't manning make some plays on his own? what did you expect him to do? rush for 300 yards and 4 touchdowns? he's a passer.

you didn't back up anything. the COLTS as a TEAM put up 24 previously. that game was played under different circumstances -- no snow, not after a bye week for belicheck without one for the colts. did it occur to you that belicheck could have disguised some of his defensive schemes that game so he could use them in the playoffs? did it occur to you that the colts would have put up points today as well if the REST OF THE OFFENSE had played up to par? oh, no, you want to blame it all on manning,a nd you post "facts" that fail to illustrate anything.

"elway was ten times the qb manning is" -- well i guess this must be true too, you said so! after all, look at all the seasons elway threw for 50 touchdown passes. it wasn't like PLUMMER passed his stats or anything.

the colts offense as a whole failed, and until you can point out how exactly manning failed to perform or made crucial mistakes, your posts in this thread will continue to be jokes.


To add to this, the absolute dumbest thing was for Dungy to abandon the run. Once they got down 6-0, they completely went to the passing game, which played big time into the Pats hands.

As good as the Pats are on D, you can't play a 1 dimensional offense. They recognized the Colts gameplan to pass heavy so they played that way and the Colts just couldnt be effective without the running game.

A lot of blame to be going around in Indy, can't say one man choked the game away.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 08:28 PM
i didn't address it because you were attempting to make an unfair comparison. vick adds another dimension, sure, but he's also a much much worse passer and playcaller. compare <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133393" target="_blank">Peerless Price</a>'s numbers to stokley's numbers and you'll see that the pats would have an easier time stopping vick than they did manning.

The Pats might have an easier time stopping Vick than Manning... and they might not. The fact is that the Pats have Manning's number.

the colts looked bad, but no one except diehard manning haters like you are pinning it all on manning and calling it a choke job. so yes, you are grasping.

Please show me where I pinned the whole loss on Manning. He certainly wasn't a difference-maker today, however... and I sincerely doubt any football fan would describe today's effort as "an MVP performance". In that context, yes, I think he choked.

and again you bring up playoffs win/loss like it matters. jeez, i was talking about elway playing against the NEW ENGLAND TEAM in this ONE GAME. not how great they've been over their careers or what their win/loss is in the playoffs. i'm sure those 5 losses were all to teams much worse than these patriots, while they seem to be the only team capable of stopping peyton consistently.

I brought up AFC playoff games because your post suggested that Elway's Broncos had trouble winning those specific games... and the stats prove your claim to be inaccurate. ("why did he lose his share of afc playoff games to teams MUCH WORSE than the current new england team?") Btw, one of those teams he lost an afc playoff game to was the '91 Buffalo Bills. Are they MUCH WORSE than the current Pats?

Northman
01-16-2005, 08:30 PM
"5 dropped passes and 2 fumbles is hardly a game killer" "peyton should have overcome those mistakes and rushed for 700 yards to win" "he didn't, what a CHOKER, elway would have done that!"

hilarious stuff, keep it coming!


You've obviously never saw Elway play. He's fought through dropped passes, a couple of turnovers and still managed to win the game. you even said it yourself earlier Cornhole, Peyton was down 21 to the bucs and came back and won against a very good Bucs defense. So where was the Magic today?

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:32 PM
The Pats might have an easier time stopping Vick than Manning... and they might not. The fact is that the Pats have Manning's number.



Please show me where I pinned the whole loss on Manning. He certainly wasn't a difference-maker today, however... and I sincerely doubt any football fan would describe today's effort as "an MVP performance". In that context, yes, I think he choked.



I brought up AFC playoff games because your post suggested that Elway's Broncos had trouble winning those specific games... and the stats prove your claim to be inaccurate. ("why did he lose his share of afc playoff games to teams MUCH WORSE than the current new england team?") Btw, one of those teams he lost an afc playoff game to was the '91 Buffalo Bills. Are they MUCH WORSE than the current Pats?

about the 91 bills thing, no they aren't worse, but i revised my statement realizing i misstated what i meant. the point is he lost to *some* teams that definitely were worse than the pats. in either case that's NOT THE POINT. the point is that if you put elway on an offense where the rest of the offense gets so badly outplayed and makes so many critical mistakes, he's not going to be able to look good no matter how talented or good he may be. this is why football is a team sport. i never suggested anything about elway having trouble in afc playoff games. i've gone out of my way to point out that i'm only talking about sticking elway into the context of ONE GAME, TODAYS GAME. he may be jesus playing quarterback but if his receivers are coughing the ball up he's not going to do anything.

and as far as your manning comments, i guess you're changing the definition of "choking" and backpedaling now. i mean you can say context this and context that, but you damn well know what "choking" meant in the context of this thread, and that was "the loss was manning's fault, he messed up, he can't get it done in the big games blah blah blah".

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:35 PM
You've obviously never saw Elway play. He's fought through dropped passes, a couple of turnovers and still managed to win the game. you even said it yourself earlier Cornhole, Peyton was down 21 to the bucs and came back and won against a very good Bucs defense. So where was the Magic today?

the difference between the bucs game and this game is taht his receivers were open in the bucs game. the bucs defense messed up at the end and allowed him to make the plays to come back. the new england defense DID NOT MESS UP at all, and infact did quite the opposite making plays left and right all the way through. i don't care how many times elway "fought through turnovers" and came back on soem random team. there was no way he was doing it to the NE defense today with the rest of the colts offense. you act as if NE didn't cover well the rest of the game. not only did they get 5 drops and 2 fumbles, but the rest of the game they were applying pressure and getting great coverage as well.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:36 PM
and on the vick thing. the pats are fast and above all else, disciplined on defense. they would stop vick just fine, especially in foxboro in the snow after a bye week.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 08:38 PM
I don't need to "grasp at anything to make manning look bad". He did a damn good job of that himself today. :pfbbt:

As for Vick, he played the opponent on his schedule. And I notice you didn't address the speculation that his mobility might have added another dimension to the offense.

Oh... and a quick check of records at profootballreference.com shows that the Elway years featured 17 AFC playoff games... 5 of them losses; 12 wins.
http://www.profootballreference.com/teams/denindex.htm

Meanwhile Peyton is three up and five down in playoff games. All he has to do is win his next nine playoff matchups to equal the great John Elway's record.

rofl

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 08:40 PM
Particularly impressive that all of Peyton's playoff wins have come at dome, er, home and two of them came against the sixth seed.

rofl

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 08:41 PM
My bad, he did win a game at Arrowhead, didn't he?

Well, that's something.

rofl

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:41 PM
Meanwhile Peyton is three up and five down in playoff games. All he has to do is win his next nine playoff matchups to equal the great John Elway's record.

rofl

as funny as this is, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

1) teams win games, players dont
2) i was never comparing elway and manning, or saying manning would be more successful than elway and so forth, i was merely pointing out that "even the great elway" wouldn't have looked good vs the pats today, with the rest of the colts offense making mistakes like they did and generally being outplayed.

i'll connect the dots for you slap, since you're getting on in years.
when the rest of your offense gets beaten badly by someone's defense, you can have the best game of your life as a qb and it won't matter because you're getting sacked and no one's open or when you throw to someone they're dropping or fumbling it.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 08:42 PM
about the 91 bills thing, no they aren't worse, but i revised my statement realizing i misstated what i meant. the point is he lost to *some* teams that definitely were worse than the pats.

I beg to differ. The '91 Bills lost the SB; the current Pats (essentially the same team as '03) won. Therefore, stats say the current Pats are the superior team. :P

in either case that's NOT THE POINT. the point is that if you put elway on an offense where the rest of the offense gets so badly outplayed and makes so many critical mistakes, he's not going to be able to look good no matter how talented or good he may be. this is why football is a team sport. i never suggested anything about elway having trouble in afc playoff games. i've gone out of my way to point out that i'm only talking about sticking elway into the context of ONE GAME, TODAYS GAME. he may be jesus playing quarterback but if his receivers are coughing the ball up he's not going to do anything.

Is that why John Madden said he couldn't name any other players on those (80s) Broncos SB teams besides #7? Because he had Pro Bowl WRs and RBs? Um, no.

and as far as your manning comments, i guess you're changing the definition of "choking" and backpedaling now. i mean you can say context this and context that, but you damn well know what "choking" meant in the context of this thread, and that was "the loss was manning's fault, he messed up, he can't get it done in the big games blah blah blah".

We can parse the definition of "choke" all evening... but "a performance that is below expectations" is a pretty standard definition, imo...

Clarification of my reasons for voting "Big time" is not tantamount to changing a definition. ::)

Northman
01-16-2005, 08:42 PM
there was no way he was doing it to the NE defense today with the rest of the colts offense.


Despite being a bronco fan, i would take Elway over ANY Qb against the this Pats team. if Elway had the kind of offense that Peyton has he would have won this game, bank on it. Elway had a knack for creating opportunities and making plays this is what made him special. you cant look at players like Mcnabb or Vick and think that Elway is the same breed. he was totally different and much smarter than them. you can take your NE defense cause trust me, John would have won this game today especially with the game being so close throughout most of it.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 08:45 PM
Three (3) points.

Against an injury depleted defense.

Against a coach who owns him.

Against a quarterback who always - and I mean always - beats him, without a fraction of the attention.

Three (3) points.

rofl

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 08:47 PM
and on the vick thing. the pats are fast and above all else, disciplined on defense. they would stop vick just fine, especially in foxboro in the snow after a bye week.

Tell you what, Corn... the Pats may get their shot at Vick. Get back to me afterwards when it's not pure unadulterated speculation, 'k? ;D

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:48 PM
I beg to differ. The '91 Bills lost the SB; the current Pats (essentially the same team as '03) won. Therefore, stats say the current Pats are the superior team. :P



Is that why John Madden said he couldn't name any other players on those (80s) Broncos SB teams besides #7? Because he had Pro Bowl WRs and RBs? Um, no.



We can parse the definition of "choke" all evening... but "a performance that is below expectations" is a pretty standard definition, imo...

Clarification of my reasons for voting "Big time" is not tantamount to changing a definition. ::)

this is like the fifth time i'm explaining this, and it'll be the last. hopefully you'll understand this time. i'm not comparing elway's successes to manning's. i'm saying that if you magically transported elway to this ONE SINGLE GAME, he wouldn't have accomplished anything either. i don't care how good his supporting cast was or wasn't. the fact is that 1) the hypothetical supporting cast he would have had today made tons of mistakes and were well covered/beaten all day, and 2) none of the teams he beat with his "crappy" supporting cast were playing like the patriots played today.

as for ranking teams based on whether or not they win the super bowl, it's flawed on so many levels it's surprising you'd even post that. probably was a cheap shot attempt at flaming my team since you don't have an argument to make. and no, the current pats aren't "essentially the same" as last year's team, to top it off. even if they were, the level of your competition and chance has a great deal to do with winning a SB in any particular year.

"a performance below expectations" is fine, but then clearly you can arbitrarily make your expectations as unrealistic as necessary in order to satisfy the ability to say "haha peyton choked". which is exactly what you're doing now. the pats played great defense, the rest of his supporting cast made many crucial errors, yet you "expected" more. what exactly did you expect?

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 08:50 PM
Three (3) points.

Against an injury depleted defense.

Against a coach who owns him.

Against a quarterback who always - and I mean always - beats him, without a fraction of the attention.

Three (3) points.

rofl

Vanderjagt has to the the Colts' offensive MVP today... Ha!

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:51 PM
Three (3) points.

Against an injury depleted defense.

Against a coach who owns him.

Against a quarterback who always - and I mean always - beats him, without a fraction of the attention.

Three (3) points.

rofl

more grasping. tom brady doesn't beat peyton manning. the patriots beat the colts. oh but i forgot, unless manning tackled dillon for a loss today, willed his WRs not to drop passes and fumble, and ran for 4 touchdowns, he'd be a choker to you bandwagon bitter homers.

Northman
01-16-2005, 08:51 PM
i'm saying that if you magically transported elway to this ONE SINGLE GAME, he wouldn't have accomplished anything either.

and again, your flat out wrong. Elway could do things that Peyton cant like say? move with some mobility. he can throw on the run much better than Peyton can. did you watch anything that John did in his career? even the simpliest minds know that Elway would have performed much better in this game than Manning.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 08:52 PM
this is like the fifth time i'm explaining this, and it'll be the last. hopefully you'll understand this time. i'm not comparing elway's successes to manning's. i'm saying that if you magically transported elway to this ONE SINGLE GAME, he wouldn't have accomplished anything either. i don't care how good his supporting cast was or wasn't. the fact is that 1) the hypothetical supporting cast he would have had today made tons of mistakes and were well covered/beaten all day, and 2) none of the teams he beat with his "crappy" supporting cast were playing like the patriots played today.

as for ranking teams based on whether or not they win the super bowl, it's flawed on so many levels it's surprising you'd even post that. probably was a cheap shot attempt at flaming my team since you don't have an argument to make. and no, the current pats aren't "essentially the same" as last year's team, to top it off. even if they were, the level of your competition and chance has a great deal to do with winning a SB in any particular year.

"a performance below expectations" is fine, but then clearly you can arbitrarily make your expectations as unrealistic as necessary in order to satisfy the ability to say "haha peyton choked". which is exactly what you're doing now. the pats played great defense, the rest of his supporting cast made many crucial errors, yet you "expected" more. what exactly did you expect?

We expect more than three (3) points. Everybody did. Choke job.

rofl

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:52 PM
Tell you what, Corn... the Pats may get their shot at Vick. Get back to me afterwards when it's not pure unadulterated speculation, 'k? ;D

yeah, in jacksonville and not after a bye week. not that they won't be able to stop him anyway but if they don't i'm sure you'll cite it and ignore the differences in situation to further suit your "argument".

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:53 PM
and again, your flat out wrong. Elway could do things that Peyton cant like say? move with some mobility. he can throw on the run much better than Peyton can. did you watch anything that John did in his career? even the simpliest minds know that Elway would have performed much better in this game than Manning.

and who would he have thrown on the run to? his covered receivers? how would he overcome the dropped passes and the fumbles? magic?

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:54 PM
We expect more than three (3) points. Everybody did. Choke job.

rofl

yep, and the points scored are a function of the entire offense, not one guy. dunce.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:55 PM
anyway i'm taking off. again i'm really sorry you guys are still fuming over the 49-24 game vs the broncos, but get over it. such unhealthy hatred and bitterness can't be good for you.

Northman
01-16-2005, 08:55 PM
and who would he have thrown on the run to? his covered receivers? how would he overcome the dropped passes and the fumbles? magic?


Thats the beauty of mobility Corny. did you see the first TD that the Pats got? Brady moves out of the pocket and finds a reciever who broke free from his coverage. Elway made a living off that and with the speed the Colts have at Wideout you cant tell me none of them could get open if Elway bought himself some time? please, the Pats D is good but not that good.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 08:56 PM
On one hand, who would know more about choking than a Bills fan? Except this is a fairweather Bills fan, if not a total fraud, so its a tough call.

Three (3) points all damn day. Too funny.

rofl

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:57 PM
Thats the beauty of mobility Corny. did you see the first TD that the Pats got? Brady moves out of the pocket and finds a reciever who broke free from his coverage. Elway made a living off that and with the speed the Colts have at Wideout you cant tell me none of them could get open if Elway bought himself some time? please, the Pats D is good but not that good.

if you watched the game you'd know manning successfully rolled out/avoided pressure on several occasions and still could not find any open receivers. maybe his receivers had a hard time getting open in those conditions when the pats had dropped SEVEN OR EIGHT guys in coverage?

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 08:57 PM
this is like the fifth time i'm explaining this, and it'll be the last. hopefully you'll understand this time. i'm not comparing elway's successes to manning's. i'm saying that if you magically transported elway to this ONE SINGLE GAME, he wouldn't have accomplished anything either. i don't care how good his supporting cast was or wasn't. the fact is that 1) the hypothetical supporting cast he would have had today made tons of mistakes and were well covered/beaten all day, and 2) none of the teams he beat with his "crappy" supporting cast were playing like the patriots played today.

Since the only way to make something like this happen is in a video game, it's pure speculation as to whether or not a different QB (one not owned by Belichick) woulda or coulda or shoulda made a difference. I do know that (unlike Peyton) Elway accomplished some playoff upsets.

as for ranking teams based on whether or not they win the super bowl, it's flawed on so many levels it's surprising you'd even post that. probably was a cheap shot attempt at flaming my team since you don't have an argument to make. and no, the current pats aren't "essentially the same" as last year's team, to top it off. even if they were, the level of your competition and chance has a great deal to do with winning a SB in any particular year.

A smiley (:P) generally indicates that the poster is jesting.

"a performance below expectations" is fine, but then clearly you can arbitrarily make your expectations as unrealistic as necessary in order to satisfy the ability to say "haha peyton choked". which is exactly what you're doing now. the pats played great defense, the rest of his supporting cast made many crucial errors, yet you "expected" more. what exactly did you expect?

Let me ask you... did you consider (that year's NFL MVP) Red-azz Gannon and the Fade's performance in SB XXXVII to be a "choke"? If not, please provide an example of what you consider a "choke".

DB-Freak
01-16-2005, 08:58 PM
I cant say for sure

But I think Elway would have struggled with defenses like this.

Not to take away anything from him, but D like this probably would be demoralizing for a Elway type QB. Or... any other.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 08:58 PM
On one hand, who would know more about choking than a Bills fan? Except this is a fairweather Bills fan, if not a total fraud, so its a tough call.

Three (3) points all damn day. Too funny.

rofl

and who'd know more about football than the great wise slap? how was that steelers blowout over the jets? pretty impressive huh?

really your desperate attempts to pin this on manning is so transparent your fellow broncos fans can even see it. simply pathetic.

Northman
01-16-2005, 09:00 PM
if you watched the game you'd know manning successfully rolled out/avoided pressure on several occasions and still could not find any open receivers. maybe his receivers had a hard time getting open in those conditions when the pats had dropped SEVEN OR EIGHT guys in coverage?


i hardly consider having 2 steps on a guy breaking out of the pocket and Manning spent most of those rollouts going backwards and not towards the line of scrimmage. and i only counted maybe 2 instances when the Pats rushed only 3 lineman so that excuse doent work either. so now your considering Peyton a scrambler? which is it? is he a Passer or a Scrambler? you keep flip flopping now. ???

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 09:00 PM
What happened to that Colts fan who posted Peyton's padded stats broken down 35 different ways?

How about these numbers? Four quarters. Three (3) points.

That works out to 3/4 of a point per quarter. Impressive.

Where's the jerkoff who was mocking Super Bowl winning quarterbacks like Troy Aikman and Phil Simms because Manning threw twice as many touchdowns this season as they ever did?

Peyton's going to see about as many Super Bowls as Archie did.

rofl

CornStore
01-16-2005, 09:02 PM
i hardly consider having 2 steps on a guy breaking out of the pocket and Manning spent most of those rollouts going backwards and not towards the line of scrimmage. and i only counted maybe 2 instances when the Pats rushed only 3 lineman so that excuse doent work either. so now your considering Peyton a scrambler? which is it? is he a Passer or a Scrambler? you keep flip flopping now. ???

never said he was a scrambler. my point is that the pats did infact hold their coverages even if peyton bought time. the coverage scheme employed by the pats was very effective even as plays developed or broke down.

Northman
01-16-2005, 09:03 PM
I cant say for sure

But I think Elway would have struggled with defenses like this.

Not to take away anything from him, but D like this probably would be demoralizing for a Elway type QB. Or... any other.


totally disagree. Elway would have abused Troy Brown today as a Dback.

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 09:03 PM
really your desperate attempts to pin this on manning is so transparent your fellow broncos fans can even see it. simply pathetic.

That must be why 2/3 of them have voted that Peyton choked like a dog today.

rofl

Northman
01-16-2005, 09:06 PM
never said he was a scrambler. my point is that the pats did infact hold their coverages even if peyton bought time. the coverage scheme employed by the pats was very effective even as plays developed or broke down.


From what i saw today Corny, Peyton didnt buy anytime as he was chased backwards a lot. the only effective play they really had was the screen which was working almost everytime which further strengthens my arguement that Elway would have slipped away from those defenders much easier than Peyton. Peyton is a slow Qb and never really bought any time. anyhow, like you i have to go as i have to get up in 5 hours for work. good luck with the rest of your debate.

Pezman
01-16-2005, 09:08 PM
Well, I finally managed to watch the game and my initial reaction was how frustrating it must be for Peyton today... For the first time all year he had very little control of his situation and I'm sure it will haunt him this offseason. To say nothing of the way the Pats disrupted their rhythm all damn day...

But then I am reminded that I hate Dungy and the Colts and all I can say is bwahhahahahahahahaha! I bet they are sure glad that they paid all that extra money to Marvin Harrison instead of upgrading that defense. Ha!
Once again, we are shown that finesse offenses DO NOT dominate over well schemed and executed defenses, especially in bad weather conditions. Was Peyton a fraud today? Hmmmm I'd say a resounding no. His recievers and blocking backs sure were though. And that defense was clearly exposed as soft with a power back and a good line today.

One last thought.... how the hell did New England ever lose to the fins earlier this year? Sheeesh...

Rausch
01-16-2005, 09:11 PM
My bad, he did win a game at Arrowhead, didn't he?

Well, that's something.

rofl

Not this year.

ro_50
01-16-2005, 09:11 PM
The Patriots are a great team defense. and Manning didnt play like he did this year, but i wouldnt blame him entirely for the loss, rhodes just got out fought for the ball and that other TO.

their D didnt get the Pats off the field. they dominated the time of possession and was on the field for about 37 minutes.

DB-Freak
01-16-2005, 09:13 PM
totally disagree. Elway would have abused Troy Brown today as a Dback.
I dont know.

I think ELway would have done better... but not by a significant margin.

Then again Elway did pull rabbits outta his ass so.

Crushaholic
01-16-2005, 09:16 PM
I just have a different definition of "choke job". To me, a choke job is when you have a realistic shot at winning and putting the game away. Manning wasn't in that position. When I think of choke jobs, I think of TrINT Green's throw to the Texan player who took it to the house 102 yards later. Instead of going up by 2 TDs, the score was tied and KC went on to lose that game. That's a choke job. In this case, New England was just the better team.

Tredici
01-16-2005, 09:19 PM
dude, the colts wide receivers were covered. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133320" target="_blank">Edgerrin James</a> got stuffed his fair share. the new england defense forced turnovers WHEN IT WAS OUT OF THE QBS HANDS. i guess wide receivers wouldn't have dropped perfect passes if elway had thrown them, he's so special. ig uess they wouldn't have fumbled becuase elway would have "led" them to not fumble. i guess elway would have scrambled and found a way to throw it to COVERED receivers. you guys really hate manning and are obviously elway homers, if elway was going to "carry his team" to wins when the rest of his offense was outplayed why didn't he win all the time? why did he lose 3 super bowls before a team was built around him? why did he lose his share of afc playoff games to teams MUCH WORSE than the current new england team? no qb playing today would have been able to make up for the rest of the matchups out there.


Wow. So let me get this straight. If Jake Plummer gets intercepted it's because he's a joke of a QB. But if Peyton Manning gets intercepted it's the defense forcing turnovers and it's OUT OF THE QB's HANDS.

I know whose being a hypocrite on this board and it doesn't seem to be one of the homers.

Here's another revelation. New England's defense was better in the matchup last season. They didn't have to do all that much today. I hope you taped the game. It wasn't so much a dominant performance by the defense as it was a tentative performance by Indy's offense. None of that all out swagger we saw last week when they knew they could beat Denver. Know why? Because they knew they couldn't beat New England. Their lack of confidence was absolutely apparent. From the QB on down.

Pezman
01-16-2005, 09:22 PM
anyway i'm taking off. again i'm really sorry you guys are still fuming over the 49-24 game vs the broncos, but get over it. such unhealthy hatred and bitterness can't be good for you.

Tsk tsk... I see the Corncob is still bitter... must be sad times in Nebraska for old corny..

Ooooh Blue... can I do the honors?

It would be my honor to enforce Cornstore's threat to leave... Please?? ??
:twokisses

-Slap-
01-16-2005, 09:27 PM
Wow. So let me get this straight. If <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003" target="_blank">Jake Plummer</a> gets intercepted it's because he's a joke of a QB. But if <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> gets intercepted it's the defense forcing turnovers and it's OUT OF THE QB's HANDS.

I know whose being a hypocrite on this board and it doesn't seem to be one of the homers.

Here's another revelation. New England's defense was better in the matchup last season. They didn't have to do all that much today. I hope you taped the game. It wasn't so much a dominant performance by the defense as it was a tentative performance by Indy's offense. None of that all out swagger we saw last week when they knew they could beat Denver. Know why? Because they knew they couldn't beat New England. Their lack of confidence was absolutely apparent. From the QB on down.

The Manning lovers should all read this post very carefully. Sums it up perfectly.

Tredici
01-16-2005, 09:27 PM
Apparently Cornrow has selective reading problems. I seem to find a lot of support for Manning from various regulars on this thread.

This one isn't even a very good agitator.

I got a bigger laugh out of Rausch thinking counting Indy as one of K.C's 7 wins this past season actually means anything.

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 09:39 PM
Here's another revelation. New England's defense was better in the matchup last season. They didn't have to do all that much today. I hope you taped the game. It wasn't so much a dominant performance by the defense as it was a tentative performance by Indy's offense. None of that all out swagger we saw last week when they knew they could beat Denver. Know why? Because they knew they couldn't beat New England. Their lack of confidence was absolutely apparent. From the QB on down.

That goes on the coaching and gameplan. They abandoned the run way too soon and a 1 dimensional offense will neve beat the NE D, even with Peyton at QB. They did the same last year also, as Ty Law called it "the most simple gameplan we've had to use."

So from "QB on down" is wrong, it's from the coaching staff on down.

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 09:41 PM
As for much of an idiot kicker Vanderjagt seems to be, he may be dead on about Tony Dungry. 3 years ago he called him and Peyton out about not having the heart and desire to win, as he pointed to Tampa Bay with Dungy compared to without him, and while Peyton does have the driveand [b]will[/b[] win a Super Bowl, I'm not so sure about Dungy.

Tredici
01-16-2005, 09:43 PM
But we know who the Indy coach really is... :coach: ;)

Tredici
01-16-2005, 09:46 PM
We know who knows xxxx's and ooooo's. We know who knows defenses.

Where were those audibles today anyway?

I did see Brady make a couple. Both excellent adjustments.

DBroncos4life
01-16-2005, 09:58 PM
For all the punks that said it wasn't Sir Mannings fault but still blame every thing on Plummer I have something for you


(what the hell was I on???)
















































:redbutt: :cuss: :gripe: :gus: :bash: 4321~ _i_O_i_

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 10:01 PM
But we know who the Indy coach really is... :coach: ;)

Hopefully not Dungy anymore.

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 10:03 PM
And damn you guys for pairing me up with Cornstore in these arguments also!

Tredici
01-16-2005, 10:06 PM
I just think it's funny. Couple weeks ago Dungy was insignificant because Peyton was so in control. There wasn't even any point to Indy paying an offensive coordinator as he was nothing but a figurehead.

If Dungy is to be fired it should be for letting Manning run the show.
Not for the loss today.

FADERPROOF
01-16-2005, 10:10 PM
I just think it's funny. Couple weeks ago Dungy was insignificant because Peyton was so in control. There wasn't even any point to Indy paying an offensive coordinator as he was nothing but a figurehead.

If Dungy is to be fired it should be for letting Manning run the show.
Not for the loss today.

I think that was used more as another thing to drill Manning about since he waved off the punt team and played a little offensive coordinator against the Broncos in week 17, rather than people actually thinking he was running the whole show and playing coach of the Colts.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 10:19 PM
Wow. So let me get this straight. If <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003" target="_blank">Jake Plummer</a> gets intercepted it's because he's a joke of a QB. But if <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> gets intercepted it's the defense forcing turnovers and it's OUT OF THE QB's HANDS.

I know whose being a hypocrite on this board and it doesn't seem to be one of the homers.

Here's another revelation. New England's defense was better in the matchup last season. They didn't have to do all that much today. I hope you taped the game. It wasn't so much a dominant performance by the defense as it was a tentative performance by Indy's offense. None of that all out swagger we saw last week when they knew they could beat Denver. Know why? Because they knew they couldn't beat New England. Their lack of confidence was absolutely apparent. From the QB on down.

what the hell? if peyton got intercepted, yeah it'd be his fault, but aside from that garbage time int where he was forcing a throw HE WASNT INTERCEPTED. his receivers fumbled it away.

and your comment about new england's defense "not doing all that much" is laughable. they were already one of the best defenses in the nfl and belicheck said their play today was the best of the season.

CornStore
01-16-2005, 10:20 PM
The Manning lovers should all read this post very carefully. Sums it up perfectly.

except it's wrong on every level, since the turnovers i was referencing were the fumbles where the ball was infact already out of peyton's hands.

DBroncos4life
01-16-2005, 10:23 PM
except it's wrong on every level, since the turnovers i was referencing were the fumbles where the ball was infact already out of peyton's hands.


Manning looked like the Bills starters going against Pitt's backups.




Choke job if I ever seen one. Thanks to that Choke job we got to play the greatest team on turf.....on TURF!

CornStore
01-16-2005, 10:23 PM
I just think it's funny. Couple weeks ago Dungy was insignificant because Peyton was so in control. There wasn't even any point to Indy paying an offensive coordinator as he was nothing but a figurehead.

If Dungy is to be fired it should be for letting Manning run the show.
Not for the loss today.


your ignorance is hilarious. moore is a major part of why that offense is successful. maybe they should make you GM of the colts since you seem to know exactly how useless their OC is and how much control peyton has over the offense, defense, special teams, practice facilities, and waterboys.

Blueflame
01-16-2005, 10:39 PM
Not this year.

You're right... this year, the Chefs have only managed to lose to the Chargeless.

In (January) '04, however, the Chefs did choke at home against the Colts.

The Big E
01-16-2005, 10:40 PM
3 points by a team that is built for offense. And they only got the three because NE dropped a sure INT in the end zone on the play before they kicked it. Say what you will, Manning gagged on this game, and is more responsible than anyone. Indy's D played more than well enough to win and they were let down by their darling QB.

Circle Orange
01-16-2005, 11:11 PM
I see, so Manning gets all the credit when the Colts win and none of the blame when they lose.

Whatever.

OF COURSE! That's the beauty of sports hysteria...one freaking extreme or the other. ~Popps~

They played like a hothouse team. Cold balls are like bricks, and the recievers couldn't handle them. Kind of hard to believe this club scorched the broncs so badly...get them off the plastic, they're just another team.

All talk of the fabulous statstical season should now be BANNED.... :boohoo:

Circle Orange
01-16-2005, 11:18 PM
elway would have looked as bad vs that defense in foxboro today (with the rest of the colts offense). sorry bud.

Not quite. Elway never lost to the Pats at either site, and Belly-check said Elway gave him more problems than any other qb and was a nightmare to prepare for. He also mentioned Favre as being 'somewhat similar.' :woowoo:

Circle Orange
01-16-2005, 11:37 PM
dude, the colts wide receivers were covered. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133320" target="_blank">Edgerrin James</a> got stuffed his fair share. the new england defense forced turnovers WHEN IT WAS OUT OF THE QBS HANDS. i guess wide receivers wouldn't have dropped perfect passes if elway had thrown them, he's so special. ig uess they wouldn't have fumbled becuase elway would have "led" them to not fumble. i guess elway would have scrambled and found a way to throw it to COVERED receivers. you guys really hate manning and are obviously elway homers, if elway was going to "carry his team" to wins when the rest of his offense was outplayed why didn't he win all the time? why did he lose 3 super bowls before a team was built around him? why did he lose his share of afc playoff games to teams MUCH WORSE than the current new england team? no qb playing today would have been able to make up for the rest of the matchups out there.

No, Elway might have thrown a pick or two forcing balls into coverage. But just as likely he'd cannon that sucker in. What were all these afc playoff teams he lost to? He was 5-1 in conference championship games, and the loss was a game he didn't finish due to injury. The broncos had good success against both the Steelers and Patriots over the years. The only team in the entire tournament they didn't fare well against were the eagles, and that's nfc.

No one wins all the time, come on...in ANY sport you always lose more than you win. More events cause failure before success happens. And how do you 'only' carry 3 teams to superbowls? Are there other games left to play or something?! :kiddingme

Davis was icing on the cake to finish it off.

Tredici
01-17-2005, 06:58 AM
your ignorance is hilarious. moore is a major part of why that offense is successful. maybe they should make you GM of the colts since you seem to know exactly how useless their OC is and how much control peyton has over the offense, defense, special teams, practice facilities, and waterboys.

What's hilarious is my ignorance comes from repeating what the media put out there about Peyton. It's called jerking your chain.

Of course I also got a chuckle out of the Belicheck quote you provided. What do you think a Coach is going to say? My team benefitted from another enormous Peyton Manning gag reflex when he saw a little mud on his pristine whites? I feel sorry for Peyton because Brandon Stokely turned into, ummmm.... Brandon Stokely?


Buy into the hype stat boy. Indy was the third seed and they are tuning in next week to watch the two teams who deserve their spots in the AFC Championship game.

CornStore
01-17-2005, 07:22 AM
Not quite. Elway never lost to the Pats at either site, and Belly-check said Elway gave him more problems than any other qb and was a nightmare to prepare for. He also mentioned Favre as being 'somewhat similar.' :woowoo:

umm, the pats team now is just a bit different than the pats team when elway was playing.........

CornStore
01-17-2005, 07:24 AM
What's hilarious is my ignorance comes from repeating what the media put out there about Peyton. It's called jerking your chain.

Of course I also got a chuckle out of the Belicheck quote you provided. What do you think a Coach is going to say? My team benefitted from another enormous <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> gag reflex when he saw a little mud on his pristine whites? I feel sorry for Peyton because Brandon Stokely turned into, ummmm.... Brandon Stokely?


Buy into the hype stat boy. Indy was the third seed and they are tuning in next week to watch the two teams who deserve their spots in the AFC Championship game.

what possible incentive does belicheck have to say they played the BEST they've played all season in that game? he was obviously being sincere, and anyone who watched the game would tend to agree since it was an incredible defensive performance.

you going to ignore that BS you posted about comparing plummers INTS to peyton manning's RECEIVERS' FUMBLES? or is that too inconvenient for your peyton bashing?

yep, indy was the third seed and doesn't deserve to be in the championship game. it's not, however, because peyton manning "choked".

Tredici
01-17-2005, 07:27 AM
Over half of Jake's intercepts were the wideouts tipping or dropping the ball. Doesn't make a bit of difference. It's a stat that goes against the QB.

If you want to excuse Peyton, then let's see a post where you offer Jake the same excuse. Again, you are the one presenting a different point of view than you had just a few short weeks ago.

Tredici
01-17-2005, 07:31 AM
Indy has magnificent receivers. The best ever. Three of them over 1,000 yards. They don't make mistakes. Stokely and Wayne are brilliant and know how to dismantle defenses. At least I read that in some post before they played against New England.

So it just can't be the fault of the receivers.

Tsk Tsk. Peyton gagged.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 07:32 AM
CorhHole, the fairweather BIlls fan, claims that he doesn't even care about <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a>, yet he has twice as many posts on this thread as anybody else.

rofl

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 07:33 AM
I know most of you guys have a love affair with bashing Manning so to try and lay a choke job on him is to be expected but this was a far cry from a choke job. Last years NE game was a choke job, this wasn't even close. This was nothing more than Dungy getting vastly outcoached by B.B.

Rather than coming out and doing what the Colts do well they had scripted that ultra conservative run first game plan that looked like vintage Tony Dungy/Tampa Bay playoff choke style. When the Colts went into their 2 minute offense they moved it right down the field but spent most of the game trying to be a run first team that they aren't.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 07:33 AM
Indy has magnificent receivers. The best ever. Three of them over 1,000 yards. They don't make mistakes. Stokely and Wayne are brilliant and know how to dismantle defenses. At least I read that in some post before they played against New England.

So it just can't be the fault of the receivers.

Tsk Tsk. Peyton gagged.

Marvin Harrison - first round pick

Reggie Wayne - first round pick

Dallas Clark - first round pick

Edgerrin James - first round pick

Yeah, Peyton was all alone out there, alright.

rofl

Circle Orange
01-17-2005, 09:20 AM
umm, the pats team now is just a bit different than the pats team when elway was playing.........

Willie McGintest and Ty Law were on teams against Elway. Coupla others, too.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 09:23 AM
My bad, he did win a game at Arrowhead, didn't he?

Well, that's something.

rofl

It's really not saying much. Everybody wins at Arrowhead. They are 2-4 at home in the playoffs.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 09:34 AM
Peyton does have the driveand [b]will[/b[] win a Super Bowl

They said that about Dan Marino. Manning is a Marino close. The results so far have been almost the same. Well, Marino did at least make it to a Super Bowl.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 09:36 AM
Hopefully not Dungy anymore.

Dungy's unit did show up for the game. Manning's unit was the one that stunk up the joint.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 09:53 AM
Cornstore doesn't seem to realize that Elway was good when he rolled out to buy time, and Manning isn't. When Elway rolled out, it was showtime. It was like watching Magic Johnson on a fastbreak. You knew something great was going to happen. Elway did that type of stuff a lot. When he would the WRs, who really weren't all that good, would find a way to get open. But when Manning would roll out, he looked like a fish out of water. He didn't buy himself that much extra time. The Pat's DBs probably got a good laugh out of him rolling out.

One thing that made Elway deadly on the roll out was that he was a threat to run. DBs had to chose whether to stay with their man, which would let Elway run for good yards, or come up to make a play, which would leave their man wide open. Manning doesn't have that effect. When Manning rolls out, do you think any DB would leave their man? Even if they stay with their man they still would have time to come up and make a tackle on Manning if he runs, which he wasn't going to.

Elway made very good defenses look silly, even when he didn't have a lot of talent around him. Elway didn't need everything to be perfect for him. Manning does. When Manning drops back, if his first few reads are covered, and the rush is coming, he can't do anything. That happened over and over yesterday. When Elway's first few reads were covered, and the rush was coming, it was showtime.

Like I said before, If Elway could walk into the Dawg Pound with the Three Amigos, no running game, and an average O line, and win that game, he could have gone to NE with three 1000 yard WRs, and a 1500 yard back, and a couple of good TEs, and a good O line. Damn, if Elway had all that he would have beaten the Giants, Skins, and atleast played close to the Niners in those Super Bowl losses.

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 10:38 AM
Dungy's unit did show up for the game. Manning's unit was the one that stunk up the joint.



The Pat RB's ran for 200 yards at a 5.9 per carry average and chewed up the majority of the game clock. You sure you watched the game?

Northman
01-17-2005, 10:41 AM
The Pat RB's ran for 200 yards at a 5.9 per carry average and chewed up the majority of the game clock. You sure you watched the game?


but they only scored 6 points aside from 16 minutes. so in that respect he is right.

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 10:46 AM
but they only scored 6 points aside from 16 minutes. so in that respect he is right.


As I mentioned on the other thread that is only due to the fact they were able to control the game running it down their throats and didn't need to throw. Otherwise they would have abused the Colts pitiful CB's any time they wanted especially with the running game working the way it was. The only reason the Pats didn't beat them up with a lot of points is cause they didn't need to.

Northman
01-17-2005, 10:50 AM
As I mentioned on the other thread that is only due to the fact they were able to control the game running it down their throats and didn't need to throw. Otherwise they would have abused the Colts pitiful CB's any time they wanted especially with the running game working the way it was. The only reason the Pats didn't beat them up with a lot of points is cause they didn't need to.


Would of, could of means nothing as the score indicated something totally different. the Colts were in that game regardless of what YOU thought they could have done to the Colts Db's.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 11:02 AM
The Pats had 6 points at the half. And 13 mid way through the 4th. The Colts held Brady to 144 yards. They played good until the final couple of drives. That's when Dillion was able to get a lot of yards. After Manning and his unstoppible offense couldn't get any first downs, leaving the Colts D on the field way too long. The Colts D showed up and played hard. They didn't get any help from their offense.

FADERPROOF
01-17-2005, 12:36 PM
Dungy's unit did show up for the game. Manning's unit was the one that stunk up the joint.

Dungy is the head coach, not a defensive coordinator. He is in charge of gameplanning on both sides along with his coordinators, and Dungy and Moore failed big time with the gameplan.

Naptown said it right, it wasnt about Manning choking, it was about Dungy get smacked around by Belichick all game long.

FADERPROOF
01-17-2005, 12:37 PM
Let's last week what did we say the Broncos needed to do in order to defeat the Indianapolis Colts?

a.) Run the ball effectively.

b.) Control the clock

What did the New England Patriots do to defeat the Indianapolis Colts?

a.) They ran the ball effectively

b.) They controlled the clock

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 12:38 PM
The whole Colts O choke collectively as a group.

TheManeMan
01-17-2005, 12:42 PM
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050116/capt.fbo10601162328.colts_patriots_fbo106.jpg


Don't cry Peyton...Atleast you'll always have 49...Hilarious!

Garcia Bronco
01-17-2005, 12:43 PM
200

Rohirrim
01-17-2005, 12:54 PM
Let's last week what did we say the Broncos needed to do in order to defeat the Indianapolis Colts?

a.) Run the ball effectively.

b.) Control the clock

What did the New England Patriots do to defeat the Indianapolis Colts?

a.) They ran the ball effectively

b.) They controlled the clock

Not to mention Romeo throwing in that "Rush 3, drop 8" mixed with various blitzes. That seemed to scramble Payaton's mind.

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 01:13 PM
Would of, could of means nothing as the score indicated something totally different. the Colts were in that game regardless of what YOU thought they could have done to the Colts Db's.


The Pats never trailed in the game...They did exactly what they wanted to do...Get a lead and kill the clock keeping the Colts O off the field and they did exactly that. The only time the Colts actually lined up and did what they normally do in terms of playing calling was at the end of the first half and they moved it right down the field. Nothing really could of, should of about it. The Pats ran it pretty much at will and passed it efficiently when they wanted to which turned out to be not very often cause they didn't need to.

That game was over the minute Dungy wanted to implement a conservative run first offensive game plan. Normally I would lay that on Manning cause he typically controls the play calling at the line but based on his post game comments when asked about why they didn't challenge the Pats down the field he responded with "we had run plays called when there was opportunities down the field..." which probably means they took the play calling out of his hands for this game as during the regular season he audibled from run plays into pass plays all the time.

I'm a huge Manning fan and will certainly admit he didn't do anything to take over and win that game but in all fairness it appears he just managed the game that he was given by the coach. If it turns out he was responsible for all the play calling then I will put it on his shoulders but the conservative nature of the game plan yesterday appears to be mostly Dungy.

Moon§hiner
01-17-2005, 01:32 PM
I won't go as far as to say Manning choked...(though I did vote that he did) but when you are the MVP of the league and the leader of your team you step up and show some fire and try to inspire these guys instead of looking like "oh no, here we go again"....a leader say "we aren't done until it's over"....I never saw that fire in his eyes or actions once yesterday.

Northman
01-17-2005, 01:39 PM
The Pats never trailed in the game...They did exactly what they wanted to do...Get a lead and kill the clock keeping the Colts O off the field and they did exactly that. The only time the Colts actually lined up and did what they normally do in terms of playing calling was at the end of the first half and they moved it right down the field. Nothing really could of, should of about it. The Pats ran it pretty much at will and passed it efficiently when they wanted to which turned out to be not very often cause they didn't need to.

That game was over the minute Dungy wanted to implement a conservative run first offensive game plan. Normally I would lay that on Manning cause he typically controls the play calling at the line but based on his post game comments when asked about why they didn't challenge the Pats down the field he responded with "we had run plays called when there was opportunities down the field..." which probably means they took the play calling out of his hands for this game as during the regular season he audibled from run plays into pass plays all the time.

I'm a huge Manning fan and will certainly admit he didn't do anything to take over and win that game but in all fairness it appears he just managed the game that he was given by the coach. If it turns out he was responsible for all the play calling then I will put it on his shoulders but the conservative nature of the game plan yesterday appears to be mostly Dungy.



although i agree that the Pats were controlling the game, it was never out of reach for a team like the Colts who averaged 35 points a game this year. and i also agree that Dungy didnt help with his gameplan but you say they went conservative? they only ran the ball 15 times. thats hardly conservative and neither Qb was throwing 20 yds or more but every so often. i mean, honestly, Peyton took over that game against the Chargers and yet Dungy wouldnt let him control the Offense against the Pats? doesnt make a lot of sense. either way, we both agree that Manning did nothing to try and create something out there.

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 01:42 PM
I won't go as far as to say Manning choked...(though I did vote that he did) but when you are the MVP of the league and the leader of your team you step up and show some fire and try to inspire these guys instead of looking like "oh no, here we go again"....a leader say "we aren't done until it's over"....I never saw that fire in his eyes or actions once yesterday.



Only thing I really put on him is the fact that a superstar should step up a make a big play or two even if the other team is a better team. I'm not a Michael Vick fan because he is a terrible passer but yesterday was a game that could easily be argued that a guy like Vick might have stepped up and made a couple game changing plays with his feet where as Manning didn't step up and do that. While I would take a Peyton Manning a million times out of a million over a Michael Vick even I will admit that might have been the type of close game that a Vick could have possibly pulled out with his feet.

Blueflame
01-17-2005, 01:49 PM
Only thing I really put on him is the fact that a superstar should step up a make a big play or two even if the other team is a better team. I'm not a <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253" target="_blank">Michael Vick</a> fan because he is a terrible passer but yesterday was a game that could easily be argued that a guy like Vick might have stepped up and made a couple game changing plays with his feet where as Manning didn't step up and do that. While I would take a <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> a million times out of a million over a <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253" target="_blank">Michael Vick</a> even I will admit that might have been the type of close game that a Vick could have possibly pulled out with his feet.

Thanks, Naptown.... CornStore and I were discussing that very subject earlier in the thread regarding his contention that no current NFL QB could have done better against the Pats D than Manning did yesterday. My reply countered that Vick's mobility might have made the difference.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 01:53 PM
Its funny how Peyton Manning has a game like this (or worse) in the playoffs every year, but there are plenty of people willing to give him a pass.

Tom Brady has a rough quarter in a Monday Night Game against the Dolphins and he gets totally crucified.

Can you imagaine if Brady ever threw four picks in a playoff game, like Manning did last year, or nearly got shut out, like Manning did yesterday? Mass hysteria would grip the media.

Northman
01-17-2005, 01:56 PM
Its funny how <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> has a game like this (or worse) in the playoffs every year, but there are plenty of people willing to give him a pass.

<a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> has a rough quarter in a Monday Night Game against the Dolphins and he gets totally crucified.

Can you imagaine if Brady ever threw four picks in a playoff game, like Manning did last year, or nearly got shut out, like Manning did yesterday? Mass hysteria would grip the media.



you called it right on the nose. i remember all the Brady bashing. hell, i think Big Ben has taken more heat after his dismal playoff game than Manning and he is a rookie! ???

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 01:56 PM
Thanks, Naptown.... CornStore and I were discussing that very subject earlier in the thread regarding his contention that no current NFL QB could have done better against the Pats D than Manning did yesterday. My reply countered that Vick's mobility might have made the difference.

Give me McNabb yesterday, too, especially with all the weapons Peyton had at his disposal.

I have a feeling we'll see how Donovan will fare against that Patriot defense in a few weeks.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 01:59 PM
you called it right on the nose. i remember all the Brady bashing. hell, i think Big Ben has taken more heat after his dismal playoff game than Manning and he is a rookie! ???

The rookie has already been called out on this thread. CornLick trashed Big Ben just before he tried to compare Manning's 3-5 playoff record to the Great John Elway's 12-5 playoff record.

rofl

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 02:00 PM
Thanks, Naptown.... CornStore and I were discussing that very subject earlier in the thread regarding his contention that no current NFL QB could have done better against the Pats D than Manning did yesterday. My reply countered that Vick's mobility might have made the difference.



Vick might have thrown 4 or 5 picks and made it all irrelevant but certainly a reasonable person could certainly look at that situation and easily conceive that Vick could have made a difference since the score was fairly close most of the game.

Manning certainly didn't choke. He managed the game that was in front of him and avoided mistakes, he just didn't step up and make any big plays and superstar players should do that in big games when they are needed.

That being said, if Brady and Manning switched teams yesterday the results would have been the same so you can't reasonably lay the loss on the QB as the better team with the much better defense won as expected but you can certainly argue that a Steve Young, a Joe Montana, a John Elway type of QB might have stepped up and figured out how to pull the lesser team through and I think that would be a fair arguement.

Northman
01-17-2005, 02:05 PM
Vick might have thrown 4 or 5 picks and made it all irrelevant but certainly a reasonable person could certainly look at that situation and easily conceive that Vick could have made a difference since the score was fairly close most of the game.

Manning certainly didn't choke. He managed the game that was in front of him and avoided mistakes, he just didn't step up and make any big plays and superstar players should do that in big games when they are needed.

That being said, if Brady and Manning switched teams yesterday the results would have been the same so you can't reasonably lay the loss on the QB as the better team with the much better defense won as expected but you can certainly argue that a Steve Young, a Joe Montana, a John Elway type of QB might have stepped up and figured out how to pull the lesser team through and I think that would be a fair arguement.


Well all be damned! your not as crazy as i thought! now, if you can just talk some sense into Cornholio that might help. :)

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 02:06 PM
Give me McNabb yesterday, too, especially with all the weapons Peyton had at his disposal.

I have a feeling we'll see how Donovan will fare against that Patriot defense in a few weeks.



I'm guessing that will be the match up we will see also. All four teams have very good defenses but NE and Philly are a hell of a lot more balance on offense.

On a side note, I think the Colts would be foolish to pay Edge James big money to come back...He still hasn't regained his lateral movement. When matched up one on one with LB'ers on a screen he couldn't juke them or get around them. After watching B.Westbrook scorch anybody and everybody in one on one situations then watching James look like he had cement shoes was amazing the difference.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 02:07 PM
Vick might have thrown 4 or 5 picks and made it all irrelevant but certainly a reasonable person could certainly look at that situation and easily conceive that Vick could have made a difference since the score was fairly close most of the game.

Manning certainly didn't choke. He managed the game that was in front of him and avoided mistakes, he just didn't step up and make any big plays and superstar players should do that in big games when they are needed.

That being said, if Brady and Manning switched teams yesterday the results would have been the same so you can't reasonably lay the loss on the QB as the better team with the much better defense won as expected but you can certainly argue that a Steve Young, a Joe Montana, a John Elway type of QB might have stepped up and figured out how to pull the lesser team through and I think that would be a fair arguement.

Hell, Elway could have done it while reading the Wall Street Journal or drinking a beer.

Moon§hiner
01-17-2005, 02:08 PM
What Cornstore failed to take into consideration about the difference between an Elway and a Manning is that someone had to devote a spy to Elway which meant that there was going to be one less man covered....Manning has never earned that kind of respect...and to his credit it's carried him well (most of the time, except in big games)...if you have a QB that is a threat to run at any moment if the receivers are covered, someone has to move up or give up yardage

Tredici
01-17-2005, 02:08 PM
The Pats had 6 points at the half. And 13 mid way through the 4th. The Colts held Brady to 144 yards. They played good until the final couple of drives. That's when Dillion was able to get a lot of yards. After Manning and his unstoppible offense couldn't get any first downs, leaving the Colts D on the field way too long. The Colts D showed up and played hard. They didn't get any help from their offense.

Actually the Pats had a first quarter touch called back by penalty. I would also be tempted to say, despite the elements, snow, wind, and cold Brady managed to put up 144 yards in completions.

I really think the weather had much more to do with the results than what anyone wants to acknowledge. Most coaches would've gone for establishing the running game in those conditions. New Englands O-Line, Corey Dillion and Kevin Faulk met the challenge. Indy's line didn't open the holes for Edge and he didn't take advantage of anything on his own. I guess I watched another Colt defense. Over and over they missed the N.E. back on the first tackle. Or the second, or the third. It was ridiculous how many yards those guys were getting - especially when there wasn't any burst of speed occurring. They were just dancing and picking their way and suddenly they are past the line. I was shaking my head in disbelief on several of those gains that should've resulted in nothing.

No1BroncoFan
01-17-2005, 02:09 PM
why doesn't manning make some plays on his own? what did you expect him to do? rush for 300 yards and 4 touchdowns? he's a passer.
This is why Manning will never be truly great. Much like Marino, he's a great passer, but not that good at other aspects of being a quarterback. The great quarterbacks all have one thing in common. They'll do (or at least try to do) whatever is necessary to win, period. If Manning ever wants to win the big game, he's going to have to develope the big game mentality. That means going above and beyond being a passer. Manning would never have made the "Helicoptor" play that Elway made in the Superbowl. Every football fan in the world (except for the Green Bay fans in denial) knew the game was over right there. All that was left was to figure out the details. It would simply never occur to Manning to try something like that. People calling Manning and Marino great quarterbacks is an insult to the true greats. They are/were great passers, arguably the two greatest to ever play, but they are not great quarterbacks. Hell, I'd take Tarkenton in his prime over either of those bozos!

Marino was always excused by the lack of a serious running game. Now we're finding out what Marino would (likely) have done with one. Better receivers, better running game, same result.

Ben

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 02:13 PM
I'm guessing that will be the match up we will see also. All four teams have very good defenses but NE and Philly are a hell of a lot more balance on offense.

On a side note, I think the Colts would be foolish to pay Edge James big money to come back...He still hasn't regained his lateral movement. When matched up one on one with LB'ers on a screen he couldn't juke them or get around them. After watching B.Westbrook scorch anybody and everybody in one on one situations then watching James look like he had cement shoes was amazing the difference.

I agree and I think Edge is ready to seek adventures in climates closer to home anyway. More than anything, they can't even consider adding another huge contract to the offensive side of the ball. They're going to have to think about an extension for Freeney soon enough, too. He has two years left on his deal and you know he's going to want monster cash.

alkemical
01-17-2005, 02:13 PM
I voted he choked, but it wasn't ALL peyton. The recievers did a good job of dropping passes.

This is peyton's white whale.

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 02:14 PM
The playoffs aren't a big mystery and the play of the QB usually doesn't have that much to do with the results. It's all about defense and by no surprise the #1, #2 and #3 rated defenses in points allowed are all among the final 4. You give any QB a defense like that and the odds are they will be playing the conference championship game.

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 02:20 PM
The great quarterbacks all have one thing in common.



Yes.....A good defense that will allow them to make it to Super Bowl games and give them a chance to win a ring. No team has ever won the Super Bowl with a well below average defense and in this day and age of media hype the "Great" label only gets passed out to QB's with the coveted rings.

Elway, Montana, Young, Favre, and on down the list would have all been ringless if they weren't fortunate enough to have some really good defenses on occassion during their career.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 02:42 PM
Its funny how <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> has a game like this (or worse) in the playoffs every year, but there are plenty of people willing to give him a pass.

<a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> has a rough quarter in a Monday Night Game against the Dolphins and he gets totally crucified.

Can you imagaine if Brady ever threw four picks in a playoff game, like Manning did last year, or nearly got shut out, like Manning did yesterday? Mass hysteria would grip the media.

But on the flip side, when Brady goes out and has an average day, and the team wins (which happens often), Brady is on the cover of SI and he's sitting next to Jay Leno. Sounds like a good trade off to me. In a minute the guys on PTI are going to discuss whether Brady is already a HOFer. He's a good QB, but he's not as great as he's made out to be.

Big Ben has also gotten a lot of undeserved credit this year as well. He's had a great year for a rookie, but lets be real. His defense and running game are what's really winning games for the Steelers.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 02:43 PM
Give me McNabb yesterday, too, especially with all the weapons Peyton had at his disposal.

I have a feeling we'll see how Donovan will fare against that Patriot defense in a few weeks.

McNabb would have had the Colts in a position to win the game. I'll take him over any QB in the league.

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 02:48 PM
McNabb would have had the Colts in a position to win the game. I'll take him over any QB in the league.


Well if you are going to bust on Manning for not stepping up in his big game opportunities I think you should take a little closer look at McNabb. He has developed himself into a very good QB in the last couple years but nobody has $hit themselves any harder or more often than McNabb in his biggest games over the past few years and has had some pretty good defenses that hasn't put him in too many situations requiring him to press.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 02:59 PM
Keep trying to spin the numbers. Bottom line is McNabb is 6-4 in the post season, with no credible help on offense, before Westbrook this season. He's taking the Eagles to their fourth straight Conference Championship Game.

Manning is 3-5 in the playoffs, with one appearance in the AFC Championship Game. A four interception extravaganza.

Manning has also had one more season as a starter. One and a half, really.


Donovan McNabb - Post Season

Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
2000 tam W,21-3 | 24 33 161 2 1 | 8 32 1
2000 nyg L,10-20 | 20 41 181 1 0 | 5 17 0
2001 tam W,31-9 | 16 25 194 2 1 | 4 57 0
2001 chi W,33-19 | 26 40 262 2 1 | 8 37 1
2001 ram L,24-29 | 18 30 171 1 1 | 4 26 1
2002 atl W,20-6 | 20 30 247 1 0 | 4 24 0
2002 tam L,10-27 | 26 49 243 0 1 | 3 17 0
2003 gnb W,20-17 | 21 39 248 2 0 | 11 107 0
2003 car L,3-14 | 10 22 100 0 3 | 2 10 0
2004 min W,27-14 | 21 33 286 2 0 | 3 3 0
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 202 342 2093 13 8 | 52 330 3

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 03:03 PM
The only playoff game where McNabb's numbers were really awful were last year against Carolina. He came into that game with multiple injuries and the Panthers cheap shotted him out of action early in the second half.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 03:07 PM
McNabb didn't have three 1000 yard WRs, or a 1500 yard RB. Before TO, McNabb never had any 1000 yard WRs, and he only had one 1000 yard back (Staley had 1029 in '02). McNabb is a lot like Elway was in his early day. He had nobodies around him, but he took them far. He didn't do as good as Elway, because Elway did win the championship games, but McNabb has taken a bunch of nobodies there.

Manning on the other hand has all the weapons, and he's only made it there once. Give McNabb those weapons and he'll lead the team to a Super Bowl victory.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 03:15 PM
I'd say Manning is a big time choker because of all the weapons he has. Everything is set up perfect for him. What more can they do to get this guy a championship? He has everything any QB would ever need on offense. And his defense showed up and played well. Everything was perfect. What they hell happened? :drown: :alghh: Yikes! :crazy: :stuck: ugh!~

McNabb has lost some big games, but he had glaring holes on that team. He had some good defenses, but nobody on offense to help him out.

PatsWin2002
01-17-2005, 03:17 PM
I'm not sure....did Manning choke again today too?

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 03:18 PM
I'd say Manning is a big time choker because of all the weapons he has. Everything is set up perfect for him. What more can they do to get this guy a championship? He has everything any QB would ever need on offense. And his defense showed up and played well. Everything was perfect. What they hell happened? :drown: :alghh: Yikes! :crazy: :stuck: ugh!~

McNabb has lost some big games, but he had glaring holes on that team. He had some good defenses, but nobody on offense to help him out.

McNabb was never truly healthy last year, either. He was still recovering from the broken ankle that cost him six games in 2002 and he played most of the season with a bad thumb.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 03:23 PM
I'm not sure....did Manning choke again today too?

They won't let me edit the title. I already screwed up by putting his whole name in the title, after being a little anal retentive bastard and telling everybody not to do that anymore.

PatsWin2002
01-17-2005, 03:29 PM
They won't let me edit the title. I already screwed up by putting his whole name in the title, after being a little anal retentive bastard and telling everybody not to do that anymore.

I did notice you caught hell for that. :dummy:

I found it quite amusing. I guess I'm easily amused.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 03:30 PM
They won't let me edit the title. I already screwed up by putting his whole name in the title, after being a little anal retentive bastard and telling everybody not to do that anymore.

That was kind of funny. ;D

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 03:32 PM
McNabb was never truly healthy last year, either. He was still recovering from the broken ankle that cost him six games in 2002 and he played most of the season with a bad thumb.

Last year McNabb got sacked 13 times in the playoffs, and that was only in a game and a half. The Packers got him seven times, but he still led them to a win. The Panthers got him six times in the first half before he had to leave the game.

If Manning had no O line and below average WRs and RBs he wouldn't even lead his team to the playoffs.

Blueflame
01-17-2005, 03:47 PM
I did notice you caught hell for that. :dummy:

I found it quite amusing. I guess I'm easily amused.

Welcome to the "easily-amused" club... Ha!

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 03:47 PM
Keep trying to spin the numbers.


No need to spin at all...The numbers speak for themselves...

1 TD, 5 INT's and 0-3 in the last three Championship games. If you are going to create a thread claiming Manning choked yesterday then surely you aren't going to try and spin that stuff. Not to mention 3 of the last 4 and 5 of the last 7 Super Bowl winners have come from the AFC. It's no secrete that the AFC has been much tougher of late than the NFC and we don't need to even talk about this embarrassing year for the NFC.

I commend McNabb for getting to the championship games but that has had as much to do with the Eagles D as anything.

As for not having 1000 yard receivers, well there is probably a reason for that. Stokely had a career high of 357 yards before he met Manning. Freddie Mitchell was drafted a few spots higher than Reggie Wayne in the same draft, Pinkston was drafted just 5 spots into the 2nd round and showed enough to get a very big contract extension, and Westbrook is the best receiving RB in the league at this point. So I'm not willing to go down the "he hasn't been given the weapons" BS.

McNabb is a playmaker and a good QB but he has buckled in the big game as much as anyone. If you are going to bust Manning's balls for not getting over the top despite being saddled with a piss poor defense then their is no way in hell you are selling me any different on McNabb. We will see how he does against the NE D in a couple weeks. If he goes out and kicks them in the teeth then he will deserve the ball licking you boys are currently giving him.

NaptownChief
01-17-2005, 03:49 PM
Last year McNabb got sacked 13 times in the playoffs, and that was only in a game and a half. The Packers got him seven times, but he still led them to a win. The Panthers got him six times in the first half before he had to leave the game.

If Manning had no O line and below average WRs and RBs he wouldn't even lead his team to the playoffs.


Sacks often times have as much to do with the QB's ability to read the defense and get rid of the ball quickly as it does the O Line. The Colts O Line is nothing special, that much I can assure you. The only high pick on that line is Tarik Glenn and he might be the most overrated O Lineman in the league. He leads the league in false starts for a reason.

Circle Orange
01-17-2005, 03:50 PM
Yes.....A good defense that will allow them to make it to Super Bowl games and give them a chance to win a ring. No team has ever won the Super Bowl with a well below average defense and in this day and age of media hype the "Great" label only gets passed out to QB's with the coveted rings.

Elway, Montana, Young, Favre, and on down the list would have all been ringless if they weren't fortunate enough to have some really good defenses on occassion during their career.

and those defenses would have been ringless without Elway, Montana, Young, and Favre to lead the team with big plays and scoring. You can't win with no points. ???

Blueflame
01-17-2005, 03:54 PM
and those defenses would have been ringless without Elway, Montana, Young, and Favre to lead the team with big plays and scoring. You can't win with no points. ???

Chef fan may have forgotten that when Elway led the Broncos to b2b SB wins, the DC was Greg Robinson....

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 03:56 PM
Sacks often times have as much to do with the QB's ability to read the defense and get rid of the ball quickly as it does the O Line. The Colts O Line is nothing special, that much I can assure you. The only high pick on that line is Tarik Glenn and he might be the most overrated O Lineman in the league. He leads the league in false starts for a reason.

Did you watch those two games last year? That was a bad O line, not McNabb holding onto the ball too long.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 04:01 PM
No need to spin at all...The numbers speak for themselves...

1 TD, 5 INT's and 0-3 in the last three Championship games. If you are going to create a thread claiming Manning choked yesterday then surely you aren't going to try and spin that stuff. Not to mention 3 of the last 4 and 5 of the last 7 Super Bowl winners have come from the AFC. It's no secrete that the AFC has been much tougher of late than the NFC and we don't need to even talk about this embarrassing year for the NFC.

I commend McNabb for getting to the championship games but that has had as much to do with the Eagles D as anything.

As for not having 1000 yard receivers, well there is probably a reason for that. Stokely had a career high of 357 yards before he met Manning. Freddie Mitchell was drafted a few spots higher than <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235256" target="_blank">Reggie Wayne</a> in the same draft, Pinkston was drafted just 5 spots into the 2nd round and showed enough to get a very big contract extension, and Westbrook is the best receiving RB in the league at this point. So I'm not willing to go down the "he hasn't been given the weapons" BS.

McNabb is a playmaker and a good QB but he has buckled in the big game as much as anyone. If you are going to bust Manning's balls for not getting over the top despite being saddled with a piss poor defense then their is no way in hell you are selling me any different on McNabb. We will see how he does against the NE D in a couple weeks. If he goes out and kicks them in the teeth then he will deserve the ball licking you boys are currently giving him.

If that was true, then TO's numbers would have dropped this year. But that wasn't the case. At the time TO got hurt, he was on pace to have career bests in yards and TDs.

Just because a player is drafted high doesn't mean he'll produce. When McNabb got a proven WR he showed what kind of QB he could be.

Like I said before, if McNabb had everything going for him like Manning did, then I'd agree with you. He would have been a choker. But McNabb had a bunch of nobodies on offense.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 04:01 PM
Pinkston was drafted just 5 spots into the 2nd round and showed enough to get a very big contract extension,

Let's just isolate this, for starters. You believe Todd Pinkston is a quality NFL wide receiver? Starting material for a contender?

:)

http://citypaper.net/vet/012303/big/pinkston.jpg

I wonder how many neutral observers would arrive at that assessment. I wonder how many would say it after they saw Todd defecate in fear on Monday Night because he saw a safety closing on him.

Expect Greg Lewis to be the man for Philly in the playoffs this year.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 04:04 PM
and Westbrook is the best receiving RB in the league at this point. So I'm not willing to go down the "he hasn't been given the weapons" BS.

How did Westbrook do in the playoff game against Carolina last season, Naptown?

No BS.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 04:06 PM
Pinkston's best year was 60 catches for 798 yards and 7 TDs. TO, with the same QB, was on pace for about 90 catches, 1500 yards, and about 15-17 TDs. If McNabb was the problem, then TO would have had Pinkston type numbers. Pinkston's wiff against the Skins kills the agrument alone.

Jason in LA
01-17-2005, 04:08 PM
How did Westbrook do in the playoff game against Carolina last season, Naptown?

No BS.

;D

Blueflame
01-17-2005, 04:10 PM
Let's just isolate this, for starters. You believe Todd Pinkston is a quality NFL wide receiver? Starting material for a contender?

:)

http://citypaper.net/vet/012303/big/pinkston.jpg

I wonder how many neutral observers would arrive at that assessment. I wonder how many would say it after they saw Todd defecate in fear on Monday Night because he saw a safety closing on him.

Expect Greg Lewis to be the man for Philly in the playoffs this year.

There's a reason why E-girls fans refer to him as "Stinkston"...

FADERPROOF
01-17-2005, 04:25 PM
Didnt Pinkston drop another pass yesterday because his wandering eyes were looking to see if he was going to take a shot or not?

CornStore
01-17-2005, 04:30 PM
Over half of Jake's intercepts were the wideouts tipping or dropping the ball. Doesn't make a bit of difference. It's a stat that goes against the QB.

If you want to excuse Peyton, then let's see a post where you offer Jake the same excuse. Again, you are the one presenting a different point of view than you had just a few short weeks ago.

even a three year old could tell the difference between the two situations, but just incase you're the only toddler on the internet i'll spell it out for you:

an interception on a tipped ball is the responsibility of some combination of the QB and receiver, whereas a fumble AFTER the receiver has possession of the ball is 100% his responsiblity. a tipped int can occur because the QB made an inaccurate throw and the receiver tipped it as a result or because the QB made a poor decision to throw into coverage and as a result it was battled for by a defender/receiver and intercepted as a result. i'm willing to give plummer a free pass on those ints that were 100% the receiver's fault, of course, and never said otherwise. however, based on plummer's history of accuracy and decisionmaking i have a hard time believing that the majority of his ints were 1) even on tipped balls and 2) on tipped balls AND solely the responsiblity of the receiver. manning however is known for his accuracy and decisionmaking and history bears this out. in yesterday's game the balls were quite simply dropped or fumbled 100% because of the receivers.

-Slap-
01-17-2005, 04:31 PM
Didnt Pinkston drop another pass yesterday because his wandering eyes were looking to see if he was going to take a shot or not?

I didn't see that, but I didn't see every snap, either. I sure wouldn't be surprised. Hell, if I was freakishly skinny like that, self preservation would be high on my list of priorities, too. Hit him too hard, you might kill his tapeworm.