The ignorance of the Europeans

[Exile_In_SJ]

Over the past few years we've been inundated by the Left here and Europeans in general telling Americans how ignorant and uninformed they are about the world and it's history.

Now it turns out, Euro's have been the pot calling the kettle black...

from little green footballs.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ and
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041202/tv_nm/media_auschwitz_dc_3



This may be one reason why the “Bush=Hitler” inanities fall so easily from the mouths of the Euroleft: Nearly Half of Britons Unaware of Auschwitz -Poll.

LONDON (Reuters) - Nearly half of Britons in a poll said they had never heard of Auschwitz, the Nazi death camp in southern Poland that became a symbol of the Holocaust and the attempted genocide of the Jews.

The results of the survey conducted by the BBC were released on Thursday as Britain’s public broadcaster announced it will show a new series next January to mark the 60th anniversary of the concentration camp’s liberation.

“We were amazed by the results of our audience research,” said Laurence Rees, a producer on the series, “Auschwitz: The Nazis & the ‘Final Solution.”’

“It’s easy to presume that the horrors of Auschwitz are engrained in the nation’s collective memory, but obviously this is not the case,” Rees said.

[Exile_In_SJ]

How can you not know about Auschwitz in this day and age? Apparently other countries and cultures can be ignorant and uninformed. Imagine that.

You mean to tell me that every non US inhabitant of this planet knows everything about all things? Apparently not .

[Exile_In_SJ]

Kind of makes that british rag headline asking how 56 million can be so stupid (after the election). Maybe they all came from Britain.. rofl.

[watermock]

That is dissapointing. I would expect it from Germany, but not Britania. Of course, Britan has few heros and many despots, but of course, they thing their royalty is divine when it is a product of a long line of freaks and murderers. The English royal family writes like a book of horrors.

[Cito Pelon]

There is not a country in Europe that does not hate Jews. Come on, where have you been? Don't you know history? You've never seen a movie "Oliver Twist"? Never read the book? You're uneducated. Read all of Charles Dickens' novels. You'll do wonders for the USA.

It's amazing that in this powerful country people are so ignorant. And before you lash out at me, define "ignorant."

[Exile_In_SJ]

There is not a country in Europe that does not hate Jews. Come on, where have you been? Don't you know history? You've never seen a movie "Oliver Twist"? Never read the book? You're uneducated. Read all of Charles Dickens' novels. You'll do wonders for the USA.

It's amazing that in this powerful country people are so ignorant. And before you lash out at me, define "ignorant."

What the hell are you talking about. To whom is your post directed at?

ig·no·rant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-nt)
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.

The Europeans were ignorant about Auschwitz. Plain and simple. They accuse America of being Ignorant in world history and affairs and yet their Ignorance is the same or worse. It's funny and ironic, hence, the title of the thread.

[mosca]

there are ignorant people in all areas of the world, europe, america, and elsewhere. who's to know where the most ignorant reside, but there's plenty of them to go around. it's up to the individual to educate self and gain awareness about what is actually going on around us.

example a. - i had relatives in germany that actually thought iraq was in europe.
example b. - i know a guy here in the states that tried to tell me that china has a larger airforce than the u.s.

[Exile_In_SJ]

there are ignorant people in all areas of the world, europe, america, and elsewhere. who's to know where the most ignorant reside, but there's plenty of them to go around. it's up to the individual to educate self and gain awareness about what is actually going on around us.

example a. - i had relatives in germany that actually thought iraq was in europe.
example b. - i know a guy here in the states that tried to tell me that china has a larger airforce than the u.s.


EXACTLY!!!!!!! Someone gets it. There are loads of ignorant people in all parts of the world. This was an example of how stupid it is for europeans and many of the left here in the US to think that somehow Americans are especially ignorant. They aren't any more or less than any other population., but it makes the Euros and the American left feel good to think so because the vast majority of Americans reject their philosophies. And of course anyone who doesn't believe the way they do is supposedly ignorant......

[mosca]

i think that a lot of the europeans think this way due to what their media feeds them. maybe it's arrogant of me to think this, but this frame of mind of theirs is thus derived from their own ignorance.
in a local newspaper over in germany there was an article that stated for a fact that over 50% of u.s. soldiers were under age 18. maybe they mistranslated someone like LABF's rants about us sending the 'kids' to war. who knows. totally absurd allegation but it passes as fact among some of the global media.

[MistrSynistr]

i think that a lot of the europeans think this way due to what their media feeds them. maybe it's arrogant of me to think this, but this frame of mind of theirs is thus derived from their own ignorance.
in a local newspaper over in germany there was an article that stated for a fact that over 50% of u.s. soldiers were under age 18. maybe they mistranslated someone like LABF's rants about us sending the 'kids' to war. who knows. totally absurd allegation but it passes as fact among some of the global media.

The human mind develops at different rates.

A scientific study shows an average age of 21 when a young man/woman comes to a rational of mature thinking and decision making.

To debate the meaning of "child" or "kid" is pointless. Just let it be known our 18 year old sons and daughters haven't even grasped the concept of life around them yet, and are thrown into the sand and toil under extreme stress.

I feel for them.

Comming up in a life of MTV, Mikey D's and High School Friday Night football. And the next, they are dodging mortar rounds, being sprayed with luke warm blood, and kicking in doors of families who may or may not be a threat. A possible villian lurking around every corner. Will I live? Will I die? Do I even care anymore? Does anyone care?

Always place yourself in someones shoes before you speak for them. It's all I ask.

[mosca]

To debate the meaning of "child" or "kid" is pointless. Just let it be known our 18 year old sons and daughters haven't even grasped the concept of life around them yet, and are thrown into the sand and toil under extreme stress.

I feel for them.

Comming up in a life of MTV, Mikey D's and High School Friday Night football. And the next, they are dodging mortar rounds, being sprayed with luke warm blood, and kicking in doors of families who may or may not be a threat. A possible villian lurking around every corner. Will I live? Will I die? Do I even care anymore? Does anyone care?

Always place yourself in someones shoes before you speak for them. It's all I ask.

very true, synister. the contrast from our pampered life in america to one of fighting a war in iraq is undoubtedly a stark one. but make no mistake, these are all adults fighting over there, not majority <i>under</i> 18 year olds as was reported by this european newspaper.

[alkemical]

if you are 18 you should be able to drink

[Rock Chalk]

there are ignorant people in all areas of the world, europe, america, and elsewhere. who's to know where the most ignorant reside, but there's plenty of them to go around. it's up to the individual to educate self and gain awareness about what is actually going on around us.

example a. - i had relatives in germany that actually thought iraq was in europe.
example b. - i know a guy here in the states that tried to tell me that china has a larger airforce than the u.s.

He might be right on example b. No one knows for certain how big the Chinese air force is.

One thing is for certain, we would kick their air forces ass. We got better planes and its all about the technology baby.

[Rock Chalk]

if you are 18 you should be able to drink

NO!

I was 18 not long ago and I remember how irresponsible I and most 18 year olds I knew were. I dont want them pricks drinking legally, it makes it more dangerous for everyone.

The military service exemption should apply though because I do believe military service will teach enough discipline and responsibility to 18 year olds.

[alkemical]

Hmm, it's ok to die for a corrupt government but it's not ok to drink.

I also think you shouldn't be able to drive till you are 18.

[mosca]

He might be right on example b. No one knows for certain how big the Chinese air force is.

One thing is for certain, we would kick their air forces ass. We got better planes and its all about the technology baby.

well, the official, published statistics on air force size show that ours dwarfs theirs in terms of number of aircraft. i remember because i had a textbook from my world politics class that had a chart comparing the airforces of the world's major powers and i actually grabbed it and shoved it in the face of the guy who made the claim that their airforce was larger, on the night he made that claim.

maybe the chinese have some hidden aircraft but i'd bet that with our satellite surveillance capability we know how many they have and where they're at.

[errand]

All I know about the europeans was this conversation I had with a few of them who disliked that I was a US Marine and that NATO was doing a training exercises in their native Norway. (Teamwork 80)

They naturally gave me the typical Yankee go home spiel. I asked them if they love the freedoms they enjoyed?....they said "Yes..." I then asked if they thought those very freedoms were worth dying for?....they said "No!"

Europeans hate that the US being the world's only super power has relegated them to second class status as far as having any clout in the world's affairs.

[MistrSynistr]

NO!

I was 18 not long ago and I remember how irresponsible I and most 18 year olds I knew were. I dont want them pricks drinking legally, it makes it more dangerous for everyone.

The military service exemption should apply though because I do believe military service will teach enough discipline and responsibility to 18 year olds.

I don't know why. Well, actually I do. But I find this comment shocking, appauling, and tragic.

We must have different views...but the rational and logic behind this statement is very, very scary.

[mosca]

Europeans hate that the US being the world's only super power has relegated them to second class status as far as having any clout in the world's affairs.
you are right on the money there, errand. france in particular leads the way in this line of thought, with germany now following suit. it goes all the way back to the de gaulle (sp?) years. i find it pretty funny that the EU has proposed a 60,000 soldier rapid reaction force, but they are unable to field this army because they cannot get enough member states to contribute soldiers to it!

[alkemical]

meanwhile their dollar is worth more than ours.

[mosca]

sure... for a while now they've wanted to displace the dollar as the world currency. looks like they're on the right track. if the euro wasn't poised to be worth more than the dollar i am sure that most of the countries in the EU would have voted against it.

[alkemical]

Now, if the OPEC community (which is one reason why we are trying to overthrow chavez, he wants to join) moves to the petrol EU$, instead of petrol US$ - our economic grip will fall.

If the west falls, the middle east falls, plain & simple.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The ignorance of the Europeans

The real title of this thread should be "The cluelessness and provincial-mindedness of ESJ and his contemporaries in WalMart Land."

December 15, 2004

Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronged with live human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and restaurants were bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk December day and we were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast with the impoverished public life of America. In fact, one morning as we puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a story came on about retail sales back in the States, and there was a shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a distinction between being at home and being out in public.
Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, though it is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is smaller, the intimate streets are deployed along a network of beautiful canals, and the car is barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we would duck into a "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden wainscotting) at five p.m. and it would be full of well-dressed, gainfully employed adults in animated conversation. Public life in Europe is only minimally about shopping and maximally about spending time with your fellow human beings.
American public life by comparison is pathetic-to-nonexistent. Americans venture out only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by car. In most American places bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the public realm for the employed classes is pretty much restricted to television, with its predictable cast of manufactured characters and situations. The alienation and isolation of American life is so pervasive and pathological, compared to life lived elsewhere in this world, that all the Prozac ever made will never avail to make things better for us.
The process of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory corporations. They have systematically disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot from all the normal amenities of culture and society. Everybody now has their 'home theater' so the cinema is only a place to park children for two hours so you can drive elsewhere to buy the cheez doodles, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and other staples of the American diet. You equip your kitchen with an espresso machine and there is no reason to "waste your time" in a cafe. Everybody has to have their own pool, so the kids can go swimming by themselves. Family values. The rest of the human race is unimportant.
American adults are said to work far more hours than their European counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have no place to "be" with other people besides the WalMart, and no way to get anyplace except the car. On top of this fantastic alienation, there is the inescapable din of manufactured Christmas festivity, which must only reinforce the deep,chronic loneliness of most average Americans, the utter lack of connection with other people. In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be heard, though the busy and beautiful streets were saturated with cheer and conviviality.
What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous and immersive ugliness of all "normal" American daily environments. Public beauty in buildings and streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been rigorously banished. Americans now move continually through a machine terrain unmediated by any reminders of what it means to be human. Our most celebrated architects are high priests of the machine ethos. America has become a country of sad, lonely, and frightened people. We say that we like our way of life, but I suspect that many Red staters have never known anything else besides the six-lane highway, the box store, and the life of cable TV. The widespread demoralization is too great to be calculated.

- Jim Kunstler

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Wow I wish we could be like the French. After seeing LABF's threads about American unemployment rates and job loss, what will we see of him with a 10+% unemployment rate like the French enjoy? How about stagnant economic growth? What do they average? A little over 1% GDP growth a year? Let's let someone else drive the world's economy. But they have culture and cinema and the bars are not for low-lifes, so that must be better. What about the staggering costs of their social safety net that is evern worse off then the US'. Yeah LABs, there's a good country that the US can model itself after.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Wow I wish we could be like the French.

If you don't already, then you certainly will when China decides to stop subsidizing the US "consumer" economy by buying US treasury certificates with all the dollars we send them for the stuff they ship to WalMart.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"A theory banging around the web says that the current bull run-up in the stockmarket is exactly proportional to the amount of loss in value suffered by the dollar over the past year. In other words, that higher stock valuations only make up for the fact that it takes more dollars now to buy each share.
We might not even care that much what goes on in the stock market if the finance sector wasn't the bloated, diseased organ it has become. Some of you under thirty-five might not know this, but under normal circumstances finance is not the "industry" that drives the economy. Rather it is supposed to be the capital formation service for an economy based on the production of things of value.
The perversity of the current situation is easy to see in "blue chip" companies like General Motors and General Electric. Both of them now make profits only in their finance divisions, not from making cars or turbines."

- Jim Kunstler

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"Sometime before George Bush's second innaugural, it's going to become obvious that the financial game is over. The Chinese (and the Japanese) are going to halt their purchases of US treasury debt, if not sell off some of what they already own. Interest rates will have to rise a lot more than a chicken**** quarter basis-point. And the US housing bubble will pop with a roar that will be heard around the world. At the same time, more oil-exporting nations will demand to be paid in Euros.
Thus, the second Bush term will kick off with the dollar losing its long-held position as the world's reserve currency. This will open the door for a wholesale drop in the US standard of living. Before the winter is over, the American middle class will find itself behind on the mortgage payment, drowning in heating bills, and goggling at three-dollar jars of peanut butter on those WalMart shelves."

- Jim Kunstler

[football idiot]

the Euro's, with all there protectionism and social programs, are in for a world of hurt when the Asians take over. they're in worse shape than us. currency valuation is crap. the asian's manipulate exchange rates all the time, (especially Japan), and who's to say the EU ain't doing the same crap?

the majority of Europe combined to form a single economy, just so they could TRY to come up with a respectable bargaining position. All of Europe combined is still a fraction of the ridiculous dominance of the American economy.

look at the facts, not the tabloid hysteria.

[Phantom]

The ignorance of the Europeans

The real title of this thread should be "The cluelessness and provincial-mindedness of ESJ and his contemporaries in WalMart Land."

December 15, 2004

Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronged with live human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and restaurants were bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk December day and we were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast with the impoverished public life of America. In fact, one morning as we puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a story came on about retail sales back in the States, and there was a shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a distinction between being at home and being out in public.
Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, though it is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is smaller, the intimate streets are deployed along a network of beautiful canals, and the car is barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we would duck into a "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden wainscotting) at five p.m. and it would be full of well-dressed, gainfully employed adults in animated conversation. Public life in Europe is only minimally about shopping and maximally about spending time with your fellow human beings.

......................

- Jim Kunstler


That was the most uninformed, inaccurate piece of sh!t I've ever read on this board. Have you been to France, Amsterdam, or Europe in general? I have, this is not correct. They have fat people, bums, unemployed, trash, drugies, hookers, - you name it - this is entirely inaccurate.

Dude you need help. What do you gain, personally, by trying to justify to your mind that America is not where you want to live. By all means, see ya.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Dude you need help...

So do you.

Help with reading comprehension, for starters.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Banana Republic puts self in Hands of Monkey Man
http://www.bartcop.com/chimp-special12.jpg
God help us

America is the greatest damned mass of foolish, ignorant peasantry the world has ever produced. Not once before in the human race's mutable existence has there been a nation of such monumental idiocy; and what's more astounding is that history has given these dopes self-determination. In the exercise of this self-determination, America (if we are not so skeptical but as to actually believe the tally) has chosen to let George W. Bush lead it for another four critical years, and we are at once given a demonstration of our extraordinary mass moronism, and of the stunning depth of our ancestors' genius.

http://newsfare.com/

[mosca]

"In fact, one morning as we puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a story came on about retail sales back in the States, and there was a shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a distinction between being at home and being out in public."
- Jim Kunstler
i love the part about how we americans (and presumably everyone else on earth, including the third world, i suppose?) are 'supposed' to wear different clothes at home and in public? the funny thing is that this is true - many europeans actually do think this way, in my estimation and experience more than in america. and these are exactly the kind of people that i don't like to be around - ones that are so far away from being real and down to earth that all of their fronting just makes ya sick.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

i love the part about how we americans (and presumably everyone else on earth, including the third world, i suppose?) are 'supposed' to wear different clothes at home and in public? the funny thing is that this is true - many europeans actually do think this way, in my estimation and experience more than in america. and these are exactly the kind of people that i don't like to be around - ones that are so far away from being real and down to earth that all of their fronting just makes ya sick.

Actually, I think the author is too kind and is making a concerted effort to be diplomatic.

Last time I was in a WalMart, most of the people there looked like extras from the movie "Deliverance" and smelled as though they bathed in alcohol and tobacco. Some, I daresay, seemed entirely unfamiliar with advancements such as indoor plumbing, running water, etc.

Does all of the above make these folks more "real and down to earth" than those who practice personal hygiene and choose to wear clothes that don't come from a Salvation Army drop box?

I don't think so.

[Phantom]

Actually, I think the author is too kind and is making a concerted effort to be diplomatic.

Last time I was in a WalMart, most of the people there looked like extras from the movie "Deliverance" and smelled as though they bathed in alcohol and tobacco. Some, I daresay, seemed entirely unfamiliar with advancements such as indoor plumbing, running water, etc.

Does all of the above make these folks more "real and down to earth" than those who practice personal hygiene and choose to wear clothes that don't come from a Salvation Army drop box?

I don't think so.

Again, since you have no clue, it's the Europeans that have poor hygiene. Americans are unique in the philosophy of bathing every day. In Europe, still today, they bathe every other day at most. Don't believe me, talk to a German or French citizen.

[football idiot]

once a week bathing, poor dental hygiene (extremely), ridiculous amount of smoking and boozing, and the wimmins don't believe in shaving their legs/pits/mustachios. but a couple fat rednecks wearing spandex makes us a country to disdain?

[W*GS]

Typical condescending elitism from LABF.

When are the liberals going to learn that calling large swaths of their fellow citizens boors, idiots, morons and the like is not a real good way to make themselves and their ideology palatable to anyone but liberals?

And liberals wonder why they get trounced in elections. For all their supposed intelligence, liberals like LABF sure can't make the simple connection between their patronizing, insulting smears and the reason why so many people dislike them.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Typical condescending elitism from LABF.
When are the liberals going to learn that calling large swaths of their fellow citizens boors, idiots, morons and the like is not a real good way to make themselves and their ideology palatable to anyone but liberals?


Gee, you're right, W*GS.

Maybe we should just start biting our tongues and give them all MENSA applications from now on.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

once a week bathing, poor dental hygiene (extremely), ridiculous amount of smoking and boozing, and the wimmins don't believe in shaving their legs/pits/mustachios...

Sounds just like the men and women of the rural part of "___________________" (fill in the blank with the name of your favorite red state.)

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Sounds just like the men and women of the rural part of "___________________" (fill in the blank with the name of your favorite red state.)

Actually it's any state but Vermont and Massachusetts. We're all around you LABF, Bush won about 85% of the counties in this country. It's not a red state/blue state thing, it's urban v rural. If Kerry hadn't won NYC, Philly, Detroit, and LA and San Fran by large margains, he doesn't win their respective states.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Bush won about 85% of the counties in this country.

1) This is debatable.

2) It sounds like a big deal until you see the head counts for those counties.

3) To quote every rethug in America right after election 2000: "It's the electoral vote that counts!"

[W*GS]

Gee, you're right, W*GS.

Thanks for finally recognizing what everyone else on the board already has.

Maybe we should just start biting our tongues

There's a few things I can think of that you, LABF, can bite.

and give them all MENSA applications from now on.

This "smart people are liberals, of course, and non-liberals just have to be stupid" attitude of yours... When you gonna drop it?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Thanks for finally recognizing what everyone else on the board already has.

Don't thank me - thank the Jergens lotion company.


There's a few things I can think of that you, LABF, can bite.

One more quote for me to keep on file for the next time you accuse me of being immature, crass, boorish, etc., etc.


"smart people are liberals, of course, and non-liberals just have to be stupid"

Now there's a quote worth saving!

Mark your calendars, folks: W*GS finally gets one right.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

1) This is debatable.

2) It sounds like a big deal until you see the head counts for those counties.

3) To quote every rethug in America right after election 2000: "It's the electoral vote that counts!"

1. Really? Debatable because hard counts don't do it for you, or are you just going to claim nationwide vote fraud?

2. A win is a win is a win

3. Ok, 286-251. Guess that still means we won, right? But there is that Minnesota elector who accidentally voted for Edwards for Prez, and all of NY's electors who voted for John D Kerry for Prez also.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

1. Really? Debatable because hard counts don't do it for you, or are you just going to claim nationwide vote fraud?

There you go again trying to reduce the basis for a challenge to just one issue, i.e., the OH recount, when, in fact, multiple frauds were commited on multiple fronts.

Like most wingers, you seem to be content to believe that, since bush and the GOP got away with the fraud, the fraud didn't happen (despite more-than-ample proof.)

2. A win is a win is a win

A fraud is a fraud is a fraud.

3. Ok, 286-251. Guess that still means we won, right?

See response to number 2.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

A refresher for HR:

WHO: Lead plaintiff, Moss v. Bush, Rev. Bill Moss
Lead trial counsel, Peter Peckarsky
Professor and statistical expert, Ron Baiman, Ph.D.
Publisher and lawyer, Bob Fitrakis
Lawyer, Susan Truitt
Exit polling expert, Jonathan Simon, JD
Senior editor, freepress.org. Harvey Wasserman
Legal statistician, Richard Hayes-Phillips, Ph.D
Director, Progressive Democrats of America, Tim Carpenter
NAACP, National Voter Fund, Greg Moore
Author Warren Linney, MA (The Patriot Test)

WHAT:
Exit polls did not match the reported vote in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida and 7 of 8 other key battleground states
Voting machines with secret software owned by private, partisan companies subject to manipulation and which deprived citizens of their right to fair and transparent elections
Uncounted and provisional ballots negatively and disproportionately affected African American voters
Inexplicable vote disparities
Voting Rights Act Violations
Recount did not recount all the votes


Challenge at January 6 Joint Session of Congress

WHY: TO PROVIDE FULL BACKGROUND ON KEY ASSERTIONS PRIOR TO THE HISTORIC CONGRESSIONAL CHALLENGE TO THE 2004 VOTE

PARTIAL LIST OF EVIDENCE:

There is clear and compelling evidence that the election was stolen.

By examining a very wide range of sworn testimonies from voters, polling officials and others close to the administration of the Nov. 2 election; by statistical analysis of the certified vote by mathematicians, election experts and independent research teams who have conducted detailed studies of the results in Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, and elsewhere; from experts who studied the voting machines, tabulators and other electronic equipment on which a fair vote count has depended; and from a team of attorneys and others who have challenged the Ohio results; the freepress.org investigative team has compiled a portrait of an election whose true outcome must be investigated further by the Congress, the media and all Americans -- because it was almost certainly not an honest victory for George W. Bush.

Crucial flaws in the national vote count, most importantly in the national popular vote, and in Ohio and Florida indicate John Kerry was the actual winner on November 2, as reported in national exit polls. At the very least, the widespread tampering with how the election was conducted, and how Ohio's votes were counted and re-counted, has compromised this nation's historic commitment to free and fair elections.

George W. Bush's 'victory' appears to have resulted from multiple frauds - a GOP 'do-whatever it takes' strategy to win the state that swung the election.

The questionable votes far exceed Bush's margin of victory in Ohio.

The Bush-Cheney 'do what ever it takes" strategy in Ohio covered a very wide range of tactics, from disenfranchisement of minority voters to discarding of ballots to tampered tabulators and much more. Taken as a whole, this compendium of error, fraud, cover-up and contempt indicates that this was not a legitimate election, and is not worthy of being certified by the Congress of the United States.

Thirty disenfranchised voters on the Freedom Winter bus ride from Columbus, Ohio to Washington, D.C. will be present to share their voting horror stories with the media.

WHERE: National Press Club
Zenger Room
529 14th St. NW, 13th Floor
Washington, DC 20045
202.662.7500

SPONSORED BY: Free Press, _www.freepress.org_ (http://www.freepress.org/) Citizens Alliance for Secure Elections, _www.caseohio.org_
(http://www.caseohio.org/) Progressive Democrats of America, _www.pdamerica.org_ (http://www.pdamerica.org/) We Do Not Concede _www.donotconcede.com_ (http://www.donotconcede.com/)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Beyond Any Reasonable Doubt, Bush Did Not Win The Ohio or National Vote

http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0105-03.htm

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/chimp-special13.jpg
"...as long as I'm the dictator..."

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Wow thanks for the cut and paste in one post, and then simply giving us all the link in the other. Why didn't you try to go for a triple and give us a cut and paste, and a link of the same complaint from another left-wing site?

More than ample proof? We've gone over your "reasons" before, and they only seem to end up coming from left-wing websites. 60 Minutes was more then happy enough to put forged documents on the air to hurt Bush, ditto with the NYT and their explosives story. Even those news organizations talk in condescending terms to people who talk about your "vote fraud".

But people who won't challenge the results are pansies I guess. All those lawyers who weren't happy with the 2000 results and worked for Kerry this time around just rolled over and took it I guess.

Please keep repeating this though. I recommend doing more then posting here and calling your local radio shows as well as writing letters to the editor of any paper you can. Don't ever stop, keep getting the word out.

[MistrSynistr]

That was the most uninformed, inaccurate piece of sh!t I've ever read on this board. Have you been to France, Amsterdam, or Europe in general? I have, this is not correct. They have fat people, bums, unemployed, trash, drugies, hookers, - you name it - this is entirely inaccurate.

Dude you need help. What do you gain, personally, by trying to justify to your mind that America is not where you want to live. By all means, see ya.

Waita minute! You're from Omaha, you don't count.

[MistrSynistr]

Wow thanks for the cut and paste in one post, and then simply giving us all the link in the other. Why didn't you try to go for a triple and give us a cut and paste, and a link of the same complaint from another left-wing site?

More than ample proof? We've gone over your "reasons" before, and they only seem to end up coming from left-wing websites. 60 Minutes was more then happy enough to put forged documents on the air to hurt Bush, ditto with the NYT and their explosives story. Even those news organizations talk in condescending terms to people who talk about your "vote fraud".

But people who won't challenge the results are pansies I guess. All those lawyers who weren't happy with the 2000 results and worked for Kerry this time around just rolled over and took it I guess.

Please keep repeating this though. I recommend doing more then posting here and calling your local radio shows as well as writing letters to the editor of any paper you can. Don't ever stop, keep getting the word out.


You're right!

Enough with the vote counting! Get over it!

What we really need to figure out is why you and others like you are heartless bastards who continuously stick up for this maniacal agenda. I wanted to believe American's were good people, but you constantly prove me wrong. Why is it all about "the win" with you people, and not the country's well being. You can't possibly come up with enough spin to convince me that Bush knows what he's doing in the interests of the PEOPLE. NOT the profits. Come on now. If you're evil, say you're evil, and let's move on! Enough of this morality and values guise I keep seeing on here. It's silly.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Yes you caught us. We're all heartless, evil, uncaring bastards who don't give a rat's ass about the good of the country. I just want to watch my stock values go higher and higher. Weird that since Nov 2 Lefties continually look to the other side to find someone to blame. Here's an out there notion, nominate a candidate that doesn't suck next time! Maybe you should moderate your views and move to the center some? Do you realize that the "I'm not a Republican" line repeated over and over again by Democratic candidates isn't working? Try a candidate with real positions, that doesn't revel in his own nuances or come across as an arrogant blue blood, and that might get you somewhere.

But I must say that I'm happy you guys keep blaming us for getting beat in elections, if you keep doing that, you'll never change what you're doing. Only a few people within the Democratic Party appear to realize they got beat last November because of their positions and their candidate, but it appears to be getting drowned by the shrill cries of the Far Left that can't believe people would actually vote for a Republican.

[alkemical]

What about libertarians who don't like either party and think that our gov't is going about turning our country into a prison instead of a free and open republic?

Why is it that we aren't free? Why is taxation used as coercian? What happens if i don't pay property taxes on my house? Why can the state just take away a drivers license because a guy says he drinks a 6pck of beer a night in his own home?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

But I must say that I'm happy you guys keep blaming us for getting beat in elections...

But we haven't been "beat" in those elections.

Your criminal party has just mastered the science of election fraud, that's all.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Try a candidate with real positions, that doesn't revel in his own nuances or come across as an arrogant blue blood, and that might get you somewhere.

Translation: "Try a candidate who can dumb down his positions enough to appeal to the willfully ignorant, the anti-intellectual, and the NASCAR dads. Pick a candidate who can reduce all the issues to 15-second sound bites, easy platitudes, and mindless slogans" (like the bush team.)

[W*GS]

But we haven't been "beat" in those elections.

Your criminal party has just mastered the science of election fraud, that's all.

Is every instance of a Democrat losing to a Republican an example of fraud, LABF?

[W*GS]

Translation: "Try a candidate who can dumb down his positions enough to appeal to the willfully ignorant, the anti-intellectual, and the NASCAR dads. Pick a candidate who can reduce all the issues to 15-second sound bites, easy platitudes, and mindless slogans" (like the bush team.)

Keep it up with the condescension and elitism, LABF. It's doing wonders for your stature here.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Is every instance of a Democrat losing to a Republican an example of fraud, LABF?

Did I say this, W*GS?

Keep it up with the condescension and elitism, LABF. It's doing wonders for your stature here.

Not "condescension and elitism" - just simple truth.

Sounds like my observation struck some sort of nerve with W*GS.

The truth hurts - especially if you're one of the people I described, I suppose.

In any event, do you deny that, to a significant degree, the American electorate is comprised of willfully ignorant people who can only process 15 second sound bites, platitudes, and empty slogans, W*GS?

If you answered "yes," then you're more of an ostrich than I initially realized.

http://www.bartcop.com/full-speed-lower.jpg

[W*GS]

Did I say this, W*GS?

You clumsily attempted to divert. As usual. Re-read what Herc said.

Not "condescension and elitism" - just simple truth.

Not everyone who votes Republican is as you describe. Your incessant smears and slurs do you no good - aren't you done venting yet?

Sounds like my observation struck some sort of nerve with W*GS.

Not at all. You may relish the thought than I'm some sort of knuckle-dragging God-fearing mouth-breathing NASCAR-loving white trailer-park trash, but I'm not. And even if I was, the fact that I've tanned your cyberhide any number of times says what about your status, LABF?

In any event, do you deny that, to a significant degree, the American electorate is comprised of willfully ignorant people who can only process 15 second sound bites, platitudes, and empty slogans, W*GS?

Some are, some aren't. Some of those who are shallow are liberals, some of those who are quite politically literate and aware are not liberals.

For example, you're the master of the empty slogan, the lame bitmap pilfered from bartcop, the short comment, and you're a liberal (or so you claim). I, on the other hand, understand nuances, subtleties, and complexities, and that many political issues aren't amenable to quick fixes, and I'm not a liberal. Don't think I haven't noticed that when I post a lengthy excerpt on an issue of interest, you rarely comment. The drive-by sneer is your style.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

...the fact that I've tanned your cyberhide any number of times says what about your status, LABF?

What you do in your dreams doesn't count.

For example, you're the master of the empty slogan, the lame bitmap pilfered from bartcop, the short comment, and you're a liberal (or so you claim). I, on the other hand, understand nuances, subtleties, and complexities....

Speaking of dreams...

:laugh:

[W*GS]

What you do in your dreams doesn't count.

The comments I get from folks who give me rep show otherwise.

I've set you up and knocked you down so many times... It's trivial.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The comments I get from folks who give me rep show otherwise.

What? You get rep from the bush sheep?

Who woulda thunk?

It's quite obvious that getting validation from the bush people is your entire raíson d' être on this forum.

Like many of us here, you migrated to the OM from the old DPO.

On the DPO, you had a reputation for being an unstable whack job, and you were largely shunned and laughed at - even by the bush people.

Now you are trying to redeem yourself and to curry favor with those same wingers by taking on "public enemy #1" - a.k.a. LABF.

Sort of a cheap way to get rep and strokes from the people who once rejected you, eh W?

(But earning the approbation of the bush people is obviously more vital to your fragile sense of self than espousing any real principles of your own.)

I've set you up and knocked you down so many times... It's trivial.

rofl

....and the irony just keeps on coming.

[W*GS]

What? You get rep from the bush sheep?

Hardly.

It's quite obvious that getting validation from the bush people is your entire raíson d' être on this forum.

Actually, no. This is a fun place to discuss politics, especially with a raving lunatic like you providing so galdarned much entertainment.

Like many of us here, you migrated to the OM from the old DPO. On the DPO, you had a reputation for being an unstable whack job, and you were largely shunned and laughed at - even by the bush people.

I changed - the BUTTFCER is irrelevant these days. Watching the Broncos flail and flounder is satisfaction enough for me.

Safe to say I never had the rep on the DPO that you do here.

Now you are trying to redeem yourself and to curry favor with those same wingers by taking on "public enemy #1" - a.k.a. LABF.

You give yourself far far too much credit. You're your own worst enemy - nothing anyone can write can possibly do as much damage to your credibility as what spills from your own keyboard. It's amusing. Quite.

(But earning the approbation of the bush people is obviously more vital to your fragile sense of self than espousing any real principles of your own.)

As far as anyone can determine, the only thing motivating you is bitterness and hate. What sort of principles are those? Did Bush steal an old flame, or run over your dog, or drink your last brew, or what?

And it is indeed trivial to knock you silly in a debate - I just let out enough rope, and you hang yourself just about every time. It's a guarantee that you, in your frothy haste, will put up something absolutely asinine and thus commit cred suicide.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

As far as anyone can determine, the only thing motivating you is bitterness and hate.

Warning:

You must first replace "anyone" with "W*GS and his ultra-conservative pals" to yield a true statement.

Why do you need to distort the truth on such a regular basis?

Is it because this is the only way to prop up the house of cards that is your belief system?

And it is indeed trivial to knock you silly in a debate...

This seems to be one of your most persistent delusions of grandeur.

But if it makes you feel better to repeat it to yourself in the mirror like an affirmation, then knock yourself out, Stuart Smalley.

[W*GS]

Why do you need to distort the truth on such a regular basis?

You and the truth do not share common ground. You endlessly distort truth, such is your degree of hate.

This seems to be one of your most persistent delusions of grandeur.

Every time I strip away your rhetoric, distortions, and falsehoods, and get down the what little meat remains, you're wrong in either your hidden premises or the facts. Always.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You and the truth do not share common ground. You endlessly distort truth, such is your degree of hate.

You repeat this blanket statement ad nauseum, yet you cannot provide proof.

Just like a Bush Davidian.


Every time I strip away your rhetoric, distortions, and falsehoods, and get down the what little meat remains, you're wrong in either your hidden premises or the facts. Always.

Thanks for sharing your dream diary with us, Stuart.

[W*GS]

You repeat this blanket statement ad nauseum, yet you cannot provide proof.

A cursory examination of just about any of your takes provides ample proof that you regularly stoop to distortion and deceit.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

A cursory examination of just about any of your takes provides ample proof that you regularly stoop to distortion and deceit.

Even after a "cursory examination" you still fail to provide evidence or proof.

But what can we expect from a person who is dishonest enough to deny that Prescott Bush's assets were seized by the U.S. Government under the Trading with the Enemy (i.e., Nazis) Act, even though the records are in the U.S. Library of Congress?