Declaration of Independence Now on Calif. School's Banned Reading List

[TexanBob]

By Dan Whitcomb
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A California teacher has been barred by his school from giving students documents from American history that refer to God -- including the Declaration of Independence.

Steven Williams, a fifth-grade teacher at Stevens Creek School in the San Francisco Bay area suburb of Cupertino, sued for discrimination on Monday, claiming he had been singled out for censorship by principal Patricia Vidmar because he is a Christian.

"It's a fact of American history that our founders were religious men, and to hide this fact from young fifth-graders in the name of political correctness is outrageous and shameful," said Williams' attorney, Terry Thompson.

"Williams wants to teach his students the true history of our country," he said. "There is nothing in the Establishment Clause (of the U.S. Constitution) that prohibits a teacher from showing students the Declaration of Independence."

Vidmar could not be reached for comment on the lawsuit, which was filed on Monday in U.S. District Court in San Jose and claims violations of Williams rights to free speech under the First Amendment.

Phyllis Vogel, assistant superintendent for Cupertino Unified School District, said the lawsuit had been forwarded to a staff attorney. She declined to comment further.

Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity.

Among the materials she has rejected, according to Williams, are excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."

"He hands out a lot of material and perhaps 5 to 10 percent refers to God and Christianity because that's what the founders wrote," said Thompson, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which advocates for religious freedom. "The principal seems to be systematically censoring material that refers to Christianity and it is pure discrimination."

In June, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the case of a California atheist who wanted the words "under God" struck from the Pledge of Allegiance as recited by school children. The appeals court in California had found that the phrase amounted to a violation of church and state separation.

=============================================

Now, once again, who exactly are the fascists, the censors, the intellectually dishonest? Is it the Left or the Right? At least the Right never tried to ban one of the fundamental building blocks of our nation's history - and all because it mentions G-o-d. Well, the Left can try to rewrite history to scrub religion from it all they want but facts are facts and when the schools will not allow the facts to come forward because they just might burn little Johnny or Suzie's sensitive ears to know that our founders believed in G-o-d, I'd say the school itself is no longer worthy of calling itself a school.

In California schools, it's just fine and dandy to teach them Islam, but don't you dare ever mention God, not even when it's in the Declaration of Independence.

If I were a parent of a child who went to this school, I'd yank him out of there so fast, they wouldn't know what happened.

And you wonder why many Christians decide to home school because they believe public schools are hostile to their value system?

[Pat Bowlen]

Sounds pretty silly, but I'd like to know what the other documents he was handing out were. It wouldn't suprise me if this is just poor coverage, and the other stuff was what caused all the damage.

[TexanBob]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

The signers of the Declaration represented the new states as follows:

New Hampshire
Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts
John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island
Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut
Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York
William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey
Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania
Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware
Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland
Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia
George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina
William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina
Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia
Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

===============================================

Bolds and italics, mine.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I'm not arguing that our founding documents make the case that we are a "Christian" nation, that we should be a theocracy or any such thing. To claim such is as irresponsible and wrong as it is to claim that religion was of no influence on our founding fathers and the formation of our government.

But somehow, the ACLU and the anti-Christian left has drummed this "separation of church and state" thing to the point of such absurdity that they forbid reading the Declaration of Independence because it mentions God.

The mention of God is all over our founding documents and in the letters and diaries of those who founded it. Those are historical facts. What's alarming is that some lefties don't even want to tells these facts to fifth-graders.

What point you make of it or what conclusions you wish to draw about the relationship between church, schools and the government are for individuals to decide but I guess now the Left doesn't even want people to have that information to decide fairly so they ban the reading of these documents in class! It's absurd and very telling about the presumed "open-minded" liberals who now want to censor American history.

[watermock]

Unbelievable. We are a secular society. That was the whole damn point, to escape the Church of England.

Unreal.

[enjolras]

What's alarming is that some lefties don't even want to tells these facts to fifth-graders.

We don't really know the facts from this article. Think of this in the larger context.. what if that teacher was using the Declaration to 'prove' that the founders where undoubtedly strong Christians, and using that as a vehicle to preach Christianity to his 5th graders? There is likely a larger issue here, and what you have is a very small part of the situation being blown up to tarnish the image of the principal and the district.

From the article it's impossible to tell what's REALLY going on here.

If this principal really is a banning the declaration for the verbage in the document itself...I think you'd find very little support on the left for that. The vast majority of those on the left are not anti-christian, but anti-theocracy. To displace this line of thinking to those on the left is wrong...and I really think you guys already know it.

[errand]

Sounds pretty silly, but I'd like to know what the other documents he was handing out were. It wouldn't suprise me if this is just poor coverage, and the other stuff was what caused all the damage.

The funny thing is, you hear the liberal Dems talking all the time about taking God back from the Republicans. And yet they poke fun and censor God's word at every turn.

Amazingly, these same school systems will still accept money that has "In God We Trust" on it.......go figure. God on paper is OK as long as it's legal tender, huh?

The liberals still control the national school systems, and as long as they do this battle of idealogy will continue with more outrageous crap like this. Amazingly you can go to a museum display and see a picture of Jesus immersed in a jar of urine, and that guy will be applauded as being a great "artist"....meanwhile the Ten Commandments are deemed offensive. What's wrong with that picture?

You liberals just boggle the mind with all your crap.....

[errand]

Kyle Turley said it best.....

"A girl at Columbine e-mailed God and asked why He didn't do something about the massacre of her friends........God e-mailed her back, "I'm not allowed in schools"

As I've said numerous times before, liberals think it's OK to hand out Holy Bibles to convicted murderers, rapists and career criminals....but not school kids. Seems to me that if we reversed this thought process, and made Bibles accessible to kids in schools, we'd have fewer Bibles to hand out to those who choose to commit these heinous crimes. Liberals despise the Ten Commandments as if teaching kids that murder and stealing is wrong is a bad thing. they think it's OK for substance abusers to get help on the taxpayer's dime as long as it's not thru a church's mission program

The left only gives one religion a pass in this nation, and that's Islam. There are calls to prayer being performed 5 times a day in a Detroit suburb in Arabic on loudspeakers....but Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, and Episcopalian churches are told their bells cannot be rung as it disturbs the peace.... Kids are not allowed to gather and pray before school in Chicago....but the school system there allows Muslims a room to pray to allah 5 times a day.....

The odd thing is liberals claim that Islamic people are sooo religious and point to their praying 5 times daily....and amazingly over the course of my lifetime, I've yet to see one instance of them stopping to pray to their god allah. Perhaps their minds are not on allah as much as the left would have you believe.

Arafat claims allah has spoken to him and has told him that he must fight the Jews and do whatever he can to free his people....and the liberal left prclaims him as a misunderstood man and when describing him they call him a "controversial leader" and Noble Peace Prize winner......never once referencing his being the father of modern terrorism who has himself murdered and has ordered the murder of thousands of people.

And you clowns wonder why the evangelical Christians came out in droves to defeat your liberal agenda this election?

[TexanBob]

The vast majority of those on the left are not anti-christian, but anti-theocracy. To displace this line of thinking to those on the left is wrong...and I really think you guys already know it.

If they really were, as you claim, anti-theocracy and not anti-Christian, you'd really have little complaint because there are not many on the Right that WANT a theocracy, but that never stops those on the Left from declaring that we do.

A theocracy means a government ruled by God - using a religious text to determine all right and wrong and to claim they are always acting as if led by God. This is clearly not true. When people like Bush and Ashcroft claim that they are trying to lead Christian lives and act according to their faiths, they are making a personal statement of their beliefs, not attempting to make religion compulsary.

But when the government schools say you can't have a Bible, you can't say a prayer, fire teachers that simply said "yes" when a student asked them if they believed in God, then what is perceived is open hostility to religion, not tolerance or diversity or any such thing.

It seems as if tolerance and diversity, in liberal parlance, means accepting anything EXCEPT white, heterosexual Christians because the Left has assigned to them the blame for racism, sexism, homophobia and plundering the planet. The Left equates religion with ignorance and seems to openly despise not only Christians but any mention on God working in their lives.

And there is a reason for it. If God is setting moral absolutes, the people violating those absolutes are going to feel morally judged. If God says homosexuality is wrong, the homosexuals will despise it. If God says adultery is wrong, the adulterers will despise it. If God says stealing is wrong, the theives will despise it. If God says drunkeness is wrong, the drunks will despise it. The Left has become a coalition of groups who live outside the mores of Christian life - homosexuals, adulterers, drunks, theives, abortionists and saying to society "God is the one that's wrong and we're all okay".

That's the moral war that is going on. The right is not trying to impose a theocracy. It just wants to see our society stop its slide into the sewer where the immoral demand acceptance as moral which the Left is championing. And if you need any more proof of that, you just have to look at which side wants to ban the Pledge of Allegiance and, now, the Declaration of Independence from our schools.

[watermock]

The word AMEN BROTHER is now ILLEGAL.

The right is not trying to impose a theocracy. It just wants to see our society stop its slide into the sewer where the immoral demand acceptance as moral which the Left is championing.

What totally blows my mind is that I'm not even on the right, it's just the assumption from the nitwits. I suppose they will assume I am a brainwashed moron. That is fine as well. I get really sick and tired when dimwits tell me what I think. Then I have to listen to them whine like babies without milk.

It's literally pathetic. It's really sad actually.

I'm not going to beat your soft head.

[Roffe]

Fascinating fact...

The leader of one the largest evangelical prison ministry's to death row inmates in North America has noticed two very specific things about these inmates. First, almost all death row inmates are men. Second, almost all death row inmates hate their fathers with a passion. In my opinion, faithful fathers are the missing link in this society.

The same man met recently with a director of Florida State prison system and queried about the demographics of the prisons. The director said there are approximately 57,000 inmates in the Florida prison system. The man then asked the director, "Out of all the different minorities in the system, approximately what percentage is Jewish?"

The director responded, "It's not a percentage, and I know exactly how many Jews are in the prison system of 57,000, exactly 13." How can one society of men be almost immune from incarceration? Answer. The Jews have fathers in the home.

Every Jewish boy, at the age of 13, is given a bar mitzvah. This ceremony is celebrated at the threshold to manhood. He reads from the holy Hebrew scripture, and is Jewish father lays his hands on him, bestowing upon his son the blessing of a lifetime! This society desperately needs the influence of men. This society desperately needs the faithfulness of a father.

Do not let this twisted society dictate what role a father is. Our direction comes from one source and one source only: the Holy Bible!

[TheDave]

See this is why i continue to call people like Bob, Roffe, and Errand idiots. Give them about a 10th of the story and thats more than enough to go off on a completely unfounded "liberal / leftist" rant. Nice job TB posting the entire Declaration of Independence. But according to the story he only handed out "excerpts" not the whole thing. Something tells me he was just handing out your highlighted portions and teaching a pro christianity view point. Before i get too into this let me show you a jpeg of page 6 of the actual court documents being filed.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/1124041declar6.gif

In addition not mentioned there but on page 5 is another handout Quoting GWB and his national prayer day proclimation. This is being used to teach what presidential proclimations are.

Looks like all the rest of his handouts are Bible related quotes made by our founding fathers and others. In and of itself this doesn't bother me a ton, but what is the ciriculumn of this class? Is it to teach social studies and american history or to push this mans religous agenda. Just for arguments sake what would some of the right wing christians feel if say OrangeAtheist were teaching you son or daughter 5th grade math. To help make some of his points about math scholars throught the years he would include various Aethiestic quotes and phrases to "Help make his point". You guys would be going nuts. This has nothing to do with hard leaning right and left wingers (both of whom i think are idiots) this has to do with a teacher who is pushing the rules to include his religious viewpoint and a principal who may or may not of gone over board trying to maintain control. So thanks to the 3 idiots for jumping to conclusions, promoting their made up left wing stereotypes, and well... just doing what you guys always do.

[TheDave]

The right is not trying to impose a theocracy. It just wants to see our society stop its slide into the sewer where the immoral demand acceptance as moral which the Left is championing.


Yeah mock, cause you of all people represent society trying to get out of the sewer. This is great even our resident alchoholic is adopting a "Moral Superiority"

[-Slap-]

Fascinating fact...

The leader of one the largest evangelical prison ministry's to death row inmates in North America has noticed two very specific things about these inmates. First, almost all death row inmates are men. Second, almost all death row inmates hate their fathers with a passion. In my opinion, faithful fathers are the missing link in this society.

The same man met recently with a director of Florida State prison system and queried about the demographics of the prisons. The director said there are approximately 57,000 inmates in the Florida prison system. The man then asked the director, "Out of all the different minorities in the system, approximately what percentage is Jewish?"

The director responded, "It's not a percentage, and I know exactly how many Jews are in the prison system of 57,000, exactly 13." How can one society of men be almost immune from incarceration? Answer. The Jews have fathers in the home.

Every Jewish boy, at the age of 13, is given a bar mitzvah. This ceremony is celebrated at the threshold to manhood. He reads from the holy Hebrew scripture, and is Jewish father lays his hands on him, bestowing upon his son the blessing of a lifetime! This society desperately needs the influence of men. This society desperately needs the faithfulness of a father.

Do not let this twisted society dictate what role a father is. Our direction comes from one source and one source only: the Holy Bible!


Yeah, but the numbers are skewed because Jews commit more white collar crimes and most of them are related to lawyers.

;)

[broncogary]

Yeah, but the numbers are skewed because Jews commit more white collar crimes and most of them are related to lawyers.

;)

Not to mention that Jews "retire" to Fla after they've served their time. ROFL!

[enjolras]

The right is not trying to impose a theocracy. It just wants to see our society stop its slide into the sewer where the immoral demand acceptance as moral which the Left is championing.

No, what the right is trying to do is force a singular moral code on society as a whole. Society is only experiencing a 'slide into the sewer' if your perspective on morals is grounded in Christian thought. For a great many of us, we see society as progressing to a more tolerant and open minded one.

You choose to define morality in a very strict way, one that is only compatible with your beliefs (which are grounded in religion). That is fine, but when you start trying to impose Christian values and beliefs at the government level, that is a theocracy. Not a full-blown one, but a covert version that is just as damaging.

A great many posters on this board never have been able to understand this. You confidently proclaim many things as 'immoral' that I happen to find perfectly reasonable. This likely makes me an 'immoral' person in your eyes which is fine. The problem comes in when we start to impose a certain value system on society at the government level. That is what the left has been largely guarding against.

You can have your morality, but leave my government out of it.

[TexanBob]

No, what the right is trying to do is force a singular moral code on society as a whole. Society is only experiencing a 'slide into the sewer' if your perspective on morals is grounded in Christian thought. For a great many of us, we see society as progressing to a more tolerant and open minded one.

You choose to define morality in a very strict way, one that is only compatible with your beliefs (which are grounded in religion). That is fine, but when you start trying to impose Christian values and beliefs at the government level, that is a theocracy. Not a full-blown one, but a covert version that is just as damaging.

A great many posters on this board never have been able to understand this. You confidently proclaim many things as 'immoral' that I happen to find perfectly reasonable. This likely makes me an 'immoral' person in your eyes which is fine. The problem comes in when we start to impose a certain value system on society at the government level. That is what the left has been largely guarding against.

You can have your morality, but leave my government out of it.

I suppose then, to ban biblical values from *your* government, there should be no laws against murder, no laws against theft and no laws against lying (fraud, perjury).

This is the ignorant old song and dance of the Left that "you can't legislate morality" but the truth is that *somebody's* morality is behind all legislation. All legislation implies something is wrong or else they would not make certain behaviors and actions illegal.

Yours is a recipe for anarchy and, if that is what you wish, I suggest you find a jungle somewhere where you can delight in a lawless society where the only rule is who is dominant over someone else.

[TexanBob]

In addition not mentioned there but on page 5 is another handout Quoting GWB and his national prayer day proclimation. This is being used to teach what presidential proclimations are.

Looks like all the rest of his handouts are Bible related quotes made by our founding fathers and others. In and of itself this doesn't bother me a ton, but what is the ciriculumn of this class? Is it to teach social studies and american history or to push this mans religous agenda. Just for arguments sake what would some of the right wing christians feel if say OrangeAtheist were teaching you son or daughter 5th grade math. To help make some of his points about math scholars throught the years he would include various Aethiestic quotes and phrases to "Help make his point". You guys would be going nuts. This has nothing to do with hard leaning right and left wingers (both of whom i think are idiots) this has to do with a teacher who is pushing the rules to include his religious viewpoint and a principal who may or may not of gone over board trying to maintain control. So thanks to the 3 idiots for jumping to conclusions, promoting their made up left wing stereotypes, and well... just doing what you guys always do.

Perhaps his role is to show that religion has historical roots in our government and many government holidays. Maybe he wants to point out where religion still exists in our government so that it can be further eradicated.

And, if the "wall" separating church and state were as complete as the ACLU and the Left says it is, we should no longer have "In God We Trust" on our money, we should not have chaplains in the Army or in Congress, we should not be allowed to have churches and synagogues as polling places and we should not allow government employees to take a paid day off for Easter, Christmas Day or Thanksgiving.

In fact, many argue that the Founding Fathers were Deists, not Christians, and that their references to God and to a Creator all refer to some powerful amoral invisible blob that sees no right or wrong and doesn't care whether we act in any particular way.

The plaintiff here might be arguing from any of these perspectives but you assign to him only the one that suits your agenda. You assume he must be a Christian zealot who is going to brainwash a bunch of fifth-graders with Bible tracts.

That might be true, but it might not.

He may simply be pointing out that religion, morality and the law are not mutually exclusive and it is folly to view it as such.

[TheDave]

Perhaps his role is to show that religion has historical roots in our government and many government holidays. Maybe he wants to point out where religion still exists in our government so that it can be further eradicated.

And, if the "wall" separating church and state were as complete as the ACLU and the Left says it is, we should no longer have "In God We Trust" on our money, we should not have chaplains in the Army or in Congress, we should not be allowed to have churches and synagogues as polling places and we should not allow government employees to take a paid day off for Easter, Christmas Day or Thanksgiving.

In fact, many argue that the Founding Fathers were Deists, not Christians, and that their references to God and to a Creator all refer to some powerful amoral invisible blob that sees no right or wrong and doesn't care whether we act in any particular way.

The plaintiff here might be arguing from any of these perspectives but you assign to him only the one that suits your agenda. You assume he must be a Christian zealot who is going to brainwash a bunch of fifth-graders with Bible tracts.

That might be true, but it might not.

He may simply be pointing out that religion, morality and the law are not mutually exclusive and it is folly to view it as such.

Bob, face it you made assumptions, you look like an ass, and now your trying to change the subject...the end result is... You didn't know anything about this lawsuit accept what the "Liberal Media" spoon fed you (funny how you take what they say verbatim when it fits your needs). The only person with an agenda here is you Bob. The rediculous title of this thread proves that. The fact that you had no idea what this suit was all about yet continued to push your "Liberals are bad" bull$hit is the problem. You, your lap dog errand and now our resident zealot robb(by the way that's the first time i've used zealot in this thread) have only one agenda... you do nothing more than stereotype and belittle everyone that's belife system is at all to the left of yours and act as if it's profound. Like it or not some of us don't hold "Your" religious beliefs, and for those of you who do and want relgion to be part of your childs education cirriculum, there are plenty of christian schools for them to attend.

[OrangeDoofus]

I suppose then, to ban biblical values from *your* government, there should be no laws against murder, no laws against theft and no laws against lying (fraud, perjury).

Oh, please. Every stable human civilization has had prohibitions on murder, theft, and fraud, including plenty that were never influenced by the bible. It's obvious that any society has to protect the rights of its citizens. Claiming that this idea is original to the bible is like me claiming to have invented the intentional grounding rule.

[OrangeDoofus]

The plaintiff here might be arguing from any of these perspectives but you assign to him only the one that suits your agenda. You assume he must be a Christian zealot who is going to brainwash a bunch of fifth-graders with Bible tracts.

Wait a minute... you go from this vague article to "Declaration of Independence Now on Calif. School's Banned Reading List" and then you accuse Dave of reading his own agenda into things?

That's rich.

[TheDave]

Wait a minute... you go from this vague article to "Declaration of Independence Now on Calif. School's Banned Reading List" and then you accuse Dave of reading his own agenda into things?

That's rich.

He knows what he's doing... He got caught so now he's avoiding this thread hoping it goes away.

[enjolras]

I suppose then, to ban biblical values from *your* government, there should be no laws against murder, no laws against theft and no laws against lying (fraud, perjury).

No.. that's just stupid.

I support liberty. Murder, theft, fraud are all acts that quite actively work against that goal. I want a government that grants me self-ownership. Let me live my life how I choose to live it.. the role of government should be concerned with ensuring that my actions don't impose on YOUR liberties, while ensuring that YOURS don't impose on mine. It's a philosophy rooted in tolerance for a great number of value systems..not just one great moral imperative.

It makes perfect sense really...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

See this is why i continue to call people like Bob, Roffe, and Errand idiots. Give them about a 10th of the story and thats more than enough to go off on a completely unfounded "liberal / leftist" rant. Nice job TB posting the entire Declaration of Independence. But according to the story he only handed out "excerpts" not the whole thing. Something tells me he was just handing out your highlighted portions and teaching a pro christianity view point. Before i get too into this let me show you a jpeg of page 6 of the actual court documents being filed.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/1124041declar6.gif

In addition not mentioned there but on page 5 is another handout Quoting GWB and his national prayer day proclimation. This is being used to teach what presidential proclimations are.

Looks like all the rest of his handouts are Bible related quotes made by our founding fathers and others. In and of itself this doesn't bother me a ton, but what is the ciriculumn of this class? Is it to teach social studies and american history or to push this mans religous agenda. Just for arguments sake what would some of the right wing christians feel if say OrangeAtheist were teaching you son or daughter 5th grade math. To help make some of his points about math scholars throught the years he would include various Aethiestic quotes and phrases to "Help make his point". You guys would be going nuts. This has nothing to do with hard leaning right and left wingers (both of whom i think are idiots) this has to do with a teacher who is pushing the rules to include his religious viewpoint and a principal who may or may not of gone over board trying to maintain control. So thanks to the 3 idiots for jumping to conclusions, promoting their made up left wing stereotypes, and well... just doing what you guys always do.


The Dave w/ the reality check.

http://prodtn.cafepress.com/4/14409694_F_tn.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

More God-fearin' red state family values:

Alabama clings to segregationist past

US state with racist history votes to keep 'separate schools for white and coloured children' as part of constitution

...after a referendum in the state looked likely to keep segregation-era wording, requiring separate schools for "white and coloured children" in its constitution as well as references to the poll taxes once imposed to disenfranchise blacks.

A narrow margin of 1,850 votes out of 1.38 million, or 0.13%, in a referendum on November 2, meant the state was obliged to hold a recount, which took place yesterday. But with no accusations of electoral fraud or any other irregularities, nobody last night expected the result to change.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1362581,00.html

[Spider]

Hilarious! ...... TB you went in circles on this one ........ Face it the Dave Busted you and Errand ........ Smacked right between the eyes with a reality 2x4

[football idiot]

so teachers are supposed to pretend that religion doesn't exist, and has nothing to do with world, or our nation's history? that's rich coming from you folk who blame all war, and most evil, on organized religion.

in public school, in junior high I think, our class went to a mosque, jewish temple, and catholic church, as part of a study of religions. considering that the vast majority of our citizens, and over 99% of the world population, believe in one God or another, how can you say that education about these religions is anything but an essential part of public education?

teachers are supposed to pretend religion doesn't exist? all because of a misunderstood part of our constitution intending to keep government from interfering in our religious freedom, the complete opposite of the way its used by those with the liberal anti-christian agenda?

[TheDave]

so teachers are supposed to pretend that religion doesn't exist, and has nothing to do with world, or our nation's history? that's rich coming from you folk who blame all war, and most evil, on organized religion.

in public school, in junior high I think, our class went to a mosque, jewish temple, and catholic church, as part of a study of religions. considering that the vast majority of our citizens, and over 99% of the world population, believe in one God or another, how can you say that education about these religions is anything but an essential part of public education?

teachers are supposed to pretend religion doesn't exist? all because of a misunderstood part of our constitution intending to keep government from interfering in our religious freedom, the complete opposite of the way its used by those with the liberal anti-christian agenda?

What part of this lawsuit told you that teachers were supposed to pretend religion doesn't exist. Again, we don't know all the facts about this case. Either learn what the facts are before you start throwing out your religious persecution theories or wait for the case to be settled and see what the courts are saying. And by the way why is it so terrible that our kids learn the basics reading, writing, arithmetic, etc. Teachers got more than enough on their plate, why do they now need to be responsible for teaching a fair and balanced assesment of world religions at 5th grade. If religion is so important to you then send your kid(s) to a religious school. Isn't that fair?

[TheDave]

More God-fearin' red state family values:

Alabama clings to segregationist past

US state with racist history votes to keep 'separate schools for white and coloured children' as part of constitution

...after a referendum in the state looked likely to keep segregation-era wording, requiring separate schools for "white and coloured children" in its constitution as well as references to the poll taxes once imposed to disenfranchise blacks.

A narrow margin of 1,850 votes out of 1.38 million, or 0.13%, in a referendum on November 2, meant the state was obliged to hold a recount, which took place yesterday. But with no accusations of electoral fraud or any other irregularities, nobody last night expected the result to change.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1362581,00.html

That is just pathetic...

[Arkie]

More God-fearin' red state family values:

Alabama clings to segregationist past

US state with racist history votes to keep 'separate schools for white and coloured children' as part of constitution



You do know that most of the racist history comes from a democratic state historically, don't you? Remember Rosa Parks on the bus in 1955? That was during an older generation of democrats in Alabama. Alabama has always been racist regardless if they are blue or red.

Alabama isn't as red as some places...
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/countymaplinear.png
reddish purple leans republican, blueish purple leans democrat

[TheDave]

You do know that most of the racist history comes from a democratic state historically, don't you? Remember Rosa Parks on the bus in 1955? That was during an older generation of democrats in Alabama. Alabama has always been racist regardless if they are blue or red.

Alabama isn't as red as some places...
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/countymaplinear.png
reddish purple leans republican, blueish purple leans democrat

Regardless, it's still pathetic. For gods sake it's the 21st century and some places are still fighting the civil war...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Regardless, it's still pathetic. For gods sake it's the 21st century and some places are still fighting the civil war...

Exactly.

And those places constitute the heart of bush country.

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/B-HesStillNotMyPrezPhoto.gif

[Garcia Bronco]

Sounds pretty silly, but I'd like to know what the other documents he was handing out were. It wouldn't suprise me if this is just poor coverage, and the other stuff was what caused all the damage.



I can't remmeber exactly what it was....but it wasn't out of control.

[Garcia Bronco]

I believe the bible has no place in our publically funded institutions. I think that 'under god' should be removed from our pledge and it should be said in schools every morning. I also believe that the Declaration of Independence is not a secular document and should be in our classrooms. Cali better get it under control...there are people that live there that need to get a grip.

[football idiot]

the Bible is the single most published and most popular piece of literature of all time. but it has no part in our education system? the only book that survived the dark ages? ok, whatever. as long as kids get to read their koran's and satanic bibles while free from religious persecution, we might as well start yanking any christian books out of schools to make room for all the hindu and buddhist texts...

[TheDave]

the Bible is the single most published and most popular piece of literature of all time. but it has no part in our education system? the only book that survived the dark ages? ok, whatever. as long as kids get to read their koran's and satanic bibles while free from religious persecution, we might as well start yanking any christian books out of schools to make room for all the hindu and buddhist texts...

I believe the bible has no place in our publically funded institutions. I think that 'under god' should be removed from our pledge and it should be said in schools every morning. I also believe that the Declaration of Independence is not a secular document and should be in our classrooms. Cali better get it under control...there are people that live there that need to get a grip.

Typical overreaction, Nobody but you guys have said anything like that.... AGAIN, if relegion is so important to you then send your kids to christian schools. As for my heathen ass (i hear that alot lately) i would rather ramp up the the math and science part of school as opposed to adding bible hour. Trust me when you are on the operating table you will be much more worried about how well your Dr. did in his science classes, compared to how much he knows about scripture.

[Spider]

Trust me when you are on the operating table you will be much more worried about how well your Dr. did in his science classes, compared to how much he knows about scripture.
there is alot to be said for using the force ;D

[TheDave]

there is alot to be said for using the force ;D

Maybe that's what i'm missing... Honestly these folks that want religion to be taught in our schools, what subjects do they want to trim to make room for it? I guess i just don't see what is wrong with the way it is?

[Spider]

Maybe that's what i'm missing... Honestly these folks that want religion to be taught in our schools, what subjects do they want to trim to make room for it? I guess i just don't see what is wrong with the way it is?
Iagree it is fine the way it is , if Religion is that important to these People ( I seriously doubt it is , they just looking to argue ) then they should put their Love making Trophies into a Religious School . or Home school ......... Simple as that

[football idiot]

there's a difference between teaching religion and letting a school library carry the most popular book on the planet. if you can't see it, I'm not the one with a problem.

[TheDave]

there's a difference between teaching religion and letting a school library carry the most popular book on the planet. if you can't see it, I'm not the one with a problem.

Again what part of the above law suit told you that?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

... i would rather ramp up the the math and science part of school as opposed to adding bible hour.

If there has to be some sort of religious instruction in public schools, then those schools could at least offer some sort of comparative/historical studies of world religions. (As opposed to sponsoring missionaries who merely pimp their own belief systems.) Kids would be required to learn, among other things, how numerous Bible stories were lifted from earlier Persian, Babylonian, and Egyptian legends. They'd learn about Hindu and Buddhist creation myths in addition to the Judeo-Christian accounts, etc., etc.

But I guess the isolationist mouth-breathers in red state America don't want their kids to be corrupted by knowledge of other cultures and world traditions.

[TheDave]

If there has to be some sort of religious instruction in public schools, then those schools could at least offer some sort of comparative/historical studies of world religions. (As opposed to sponsoring missionaries who merely pimp their own belief systems.) Kids would be required to learn, among other things, how numerous Bible stories were lifted from earlier Persian, Babylonian, and Egyptian legends. They'd learn about Hindu and Buddhist creation myths in addition to the Judeo-Christian accounts, etc., etc.

But I guess the isolationist mouth-breathers in red state America don't want their kids to be corrupted by knowledge of other cultures and world traditions.


If they could add a class like like that as an elective, i would be fine with that... But that requires more teachers, which requires more money, wich will end up being tax hikes. If people were willing to spend the $ for it you got no problem here.