2004 - The good and the bad

[Green Sunshine]

In 2004, we lost a great leader and we lost a terrorist. The Great leader, Yasir Arafat, passed away last week. He dedicated his life to freeing his people from the tyranny of the Israelis. Unfortunately, he died before his work was complete. It's such a sad story. The terrorist, Ronald Reagan, died June 5th from Alzheimer's. He was looney and didn't have a clue as to what was going on around him during his last ten years. Most people will say that he never had a clue, so they couldn't notice a difference. Nevertheless, Reagan was a terrorist for supplying terrorists with weapons. The terrorists: the IOF(Israeli Occupation Forces) who invaded their neighbors and taunted the United Nations time after time. It's good to see such a bad man die. I smoked a cigar that day. :cheers:

[TheDave]

What an Asshole...

[Raider Bill]

What an Asshole...


I'll second that. Y A.. a peace loving guy?.. Spare me, the PLO and it's phony cause are a bunch of bronze age murderous thugs.

Palestine as a soverign Arab country never existed in recorded history. Tell 'em to go back to Jordan.

[patteeu]

I'm curious, Sunshine. Could you give me your brief thoughts on each of the following:

George W. Bush
Bill Clinton
Osama Bin Laden
Rupert Murdoch
Donald Trump
Hillary Duff
Louis Farakhan
Taco John
Saddam Hussein

[W*GS]

I'm curious, Sunshine. Could you give me your brief thoughts on ...

All ol' Greeny has is "brief thoughts", like "sock, *then* shoe".

He's come off like a neo-Nazi pinhead.

[Taco John]

http://www.aetc.randolph.af.mil/se2/torch/back/2003/0305/Images/gasfire.jpg

[Kaylore]

Yasir Arafat pushed people in wheel chairs into the ocean. He ordered the murder of athletes, sent young children to kill themselves and othe innocents while he sat on his bed eating grapes. He died taking his people's money with him to his grave and leaving no leader and no solid form of governement to take care of his people. He was the ultimate self-centered asshole and utterly evil.

Ronald Reagan stood boldly against an oppresive regime and helped engineer a movement that what would free the rest of Europe.

Man, first a bunch of CBS=Zionism BS, and now this garbage. Can someone tell me what's going on?

[Rohirrim]

I didn't like Ray-gun, but this is one warped perspective. Arafat was a criminal slime killer of children. And from what we hear now, a drunk as well.

[Spider]

In 2004, we lost a great leader and we lost a terrorist. The Great leader, Yasir Arafat, passed away last week. He dedicated his life to freeing his people from the tyranny of the Israelis. Unfortunately, he died before his work was complete. It's such a sad story. The terrorist, Ronald Reagan, died June 5th from Alzheimer's. He was looney and didn't have a clue as to what was going on around him during his last ten years. Most people will say that he never had a clue, so they couldn't notice a difference. Nevertheless, Reagan was a terrorist for supplying terrorists with weapons. The terrorists: the IOF(Israeli Occupation Forces) who invaded their neighbors and taunted the United Nations time after time. It's good to see such a bad man die. I smoked a cigar that day. :cheers:
are you stupid ? Seriously ? I am glad that fúck is dead ........Although he didnt suffer enough pain in the end ......

[Mile High Shack]

he is just baiting as TJ pointed out

flaming away

it's better to ignore ****heads like him.

[RaiderH8r]

In 2004, we lost a great leader and we lost a terrorist. The Great leader, Yasir Arafat, passed away last week. He dedicated his life to freeing his people from the tyranny of the Israelis. Unfortunately, he died before his work was complete. It's such a sad story. The terrorist, Ronald Reagan, died June 5th from Alzheimer's. He was looney and didn't have a clue as to what was going on around him during his last ten years. Most people will say that he never had a clue, so they couldn't notice a difference. Nevertheless, Reagan was a terrorist for supplying terrorists with weapons. The terrorists: the IOF(Israeli Occupation Forces) who invaded their neighbors and taunted the United Nations time after time. It's good to see such a bad man die. I smoked a cigar that day. :cheers:
http://www.d.umn.edu/~pete2358/pictures/warning%20-%20moron%20posting.jpg

[Hotrod]

LOL dont ban him this guy is frickin funny. I cant believe we have found someone more twisted then LABF. NO dont ban him after we win the SB we will need things like him around to help pass the offseason. Arafatlips great peace guy rofl

Hey greengas or whatever your name is whats your take on the war in Iraq and on terror rofl

[Taco John]

he is just baiting as TJ pointed out

flaming away

it's better to ignore ****heads like him.


I don't know about that entirely. I believe that <i>he believes</i> what he's saying, though he knows it's unpopular. He's using symbolism from the Western paradigm and using it with reverse the shock value. It's a clever gimmick, but not one that fosters true dialogue that seeks any sort of resolution or understanding. But then, there's not a whole lot of compromise going on in politics today.

I guess with a world economy comes world politics. What an interesting day and age we live.

[winstoncup bronco]

I don't know about that entirely. I believe that <i>he believes</i> what he's saying, though he knows it's unpopular. He's using symbolism from the Western paradigm and using it with reverse the shock value. It's a clever gimmick, but not one that fosters true dialogue that seeks any sort of resolution or understanding. But then, there's not a whole lot of compromise going on in politics today.

I guess with a world economy comes world politics. What an interesting day and age we live.

Hit the nail right on the head. Green Sunshine does believe what he says, and he does know it's an unpopular view, but I wouldn't say it's a gimmick or for shock value. He has reasons for feeling the way he does, so it's more along the lines of a Broncos/raiders type of dialogue. Each side thinks they are 100% correct, and the other is the exact opposite. I give him credit in that he at least attempts to back up his position with examples or historical references, but I don't agree with him myself.

[RaiderH8r]

Hit the nail right on the head. Green Sunshine does believe what he says, and he does know it's an unpopular view, but I wouldn't say it's a gimmick or for shock value. He has reasons for feeling the way he does, so it's more along the lines of a Broncos/raiders type of dialogue. Each side thinks they are 100% correct, and the other is the exact opposite. I give him credit in that he at least attempts to back up his position with examples or historical references, but I don't agree with him myself.
Don't kid yourself, it's all about the shock value and gimmick. Freedom of speech does provide the right to sound like an imbecile, I just didn't know that people were so eager to do it.

[orangeatheist]

http://members.ij.net/captbob2112/troll.jpg

[winstoncup bronco]

Don't kid yourself, it's all about the shock value and gimmick. Freedom of speech does provide the right to sound like an imbecile, I just didn't know that people were so eager to do it.

I'm not kidding myself, he really does believe what he says. I've known the guy for a long time, so everything you're hearing now, I've heard over and over already. I talked him into coming here because I thought it would be interesting to see how people here would react to him. He's actually a really good guy. If you talked to him about anything other than politics, you would never believe it's the same guy.

[Mile High Shack]

I'm not kidding myself, he really does believe what he says. I've known the guy for a long time, so everything you're hearing now, I've heard over and over already. I talked him into coming here because I thought it would be interesting to see how people here would react to him. He's actually a really good guy. If you talked to him about anything other than politics, you would never believe it's the same guy.

I have a hard time believing anyone is "a good guy" that supports terorrists like araFat

[Rascal]

or a person who thinks that Reagan was a terroists.

[winstoncup bronco]

I have a hard time believing anyone is "a good guy" that supports terorrists like araFat

Yeah, lol.

But like I said, if you spoke to him on anything but politics, it's like two different people.

[Blueflame]

I have a hard time believing anyone is "a good guy" that supports terorrists like araFat

The opinions he has expressed are, as some have noted, unpopular ones.

Fortunately, for those who may be offended, the ignore options do make it possible to avoid aggravation. :peace:

[Rohirrim]

Here's the thing that always leaves me shaking my head about the Palestinians. Had they adopted the proven methodologies and tactics of Ghandi and Martin Luther King forty years ago, they would already be enjoying the fruits of an independent Palestinian state.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I cant believe we have found someone more twisted then LABF.

"We?"

Says another twisted rider on the twisted bandwagon that is BushCo, hurtling straight for a precipice.

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/B-Don'tBlameMeDidn'tVote.gif

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Green isn't wrong about Raygun.

After all, Red Ink Ron did sell stinger missles to our enemies (and cocaine to the denizens of our inner cities) to finance an illegal war in South America. He was a war criminal who went to his death (as will the Smirking Sociopath who now squats in the WH) with the blood of untold thousands of innocents on his hands.

[RaiderH8r]

Green isn't wrong about Raygun.

After all, Red Ink Ron did sell stinger missles to our enemies (and cocaine to the denizens of our inner cities) to finance an illegal war in South America. He was a war criminal who went to his death (as will the Smirking Sociopath who now squats in the WH) with the blood of untold thousands of innocents on his hands.
Never one to let his thunder be stolen.

[Green Sunshine]

What an Asshole...
Reagan? Yeah, I agree.

[Green Sunshine]

I'll second that. Y A.. a peace loving guy?.. Spare me, the PLO and it's phony cause are a bunch of bronze age murderous thugs.

Palestine as a soverign Arab country never existed in recorded history. Tell 'em to go back to Jordan.
Learn how to read jackass. I didn't say Arafat was peace loving - I said he was a freedom fighter. And while it's true that Palestine hasn't existed as an independent country in modern history, neither did Israel until the Tragedy, aka the war of 1948. And Palestinians didn't come from Jordan you dummy. They fled to Jordan to escape the murderous Jews who were going from village to village massacring entire Arab populations. Study the real history, not the watered down Zionist/American teachings! :charge:

[Green Sunshine]

George W. Bush - a cowboy who got really lucky off of his father's connections. More of a danger to the world than any other leader of the past 20 years.
Bill Clinton - I wouldn't trust him or his husband Hilarious! and I hate his tax and spend idealogy, but I gotta admit, he knew how to compromise and that's what a good politician does.
Osama Bin Laden - tough one. I was at the WTC on 9/11 and believe it or not worked there in Feb 1993 as well. I think he's ruthless just as every powerful politician is. I think he is misunderstood by the west. He wants to rule Saudi Arabia. The only problem is that the US defends the Saudi royal family with a vengeance. Bin Laden doesn't hate us or the way we live. He couldn't care less about us. He just doesn't want us to meddle in his affairs, and conquering Saudi Arabia is his affair. Bush calls him a coward. Well, in a sense anyone who sends people to war without fighting himself is a coward. Bush is more cowardly than Bin Laden, because Bin Laden at least fought the Soviets. I don't sympathize with Bin Laden because I don't care who rules Saudi Arabia.
Rupert Murdoch - a Zionist and helluva businessman. Looks like he's becoming more nepotist.
Donald Trump - did well with $40 million gift from dad. Too cocky, but it works for him.
Hillary Duff - never heard of her.
Louis Farakhan - know who he is, but not enough to comment.
Taco John - Is he the guy who says "Yo quiros Taco Bell?"
Saddam Hussein - a thug. Kinda like John Gotti calling himself president and killing anyone who says otherwise. Just a bad guy who did just about everything wrong, including raising two sons who became even more monstrous than himself.

[Green Sunshine]

http://www.aetc.randolph.af.mil/se2/torch/back/2003/0305/Images/gasfire.jpg
I voted for Nader. From what I hear, he was neck and neck with Kodos. :vermeil:

[Green Sunshine]

are you stupid ? Seriously ? I am glad that fúck is dead ........Although he didnt suffer enough pain in the end ......
Am I stupid? :kiddingme Gee, that is a tough one to answer. I'll get back to you on that one. In the meantime, why don't you consider all leaders who lead their people in war. They all kill. Truman dropped atomic bombs :bomb: on 2 cities for god's sake, even though he knew all the men weren't even there - it was all women, children and elderly. Is that someone you salute? That was intentional, Arafat's young victims are not. And Bush? He has killed many more children than Arafat had, and Bush is just getting started. Do you hope Bush suffers a painful death? I certainly do. He has way too much blood on his hands.

[Green Sunshine]

LOL dont ban him this guy is frickin funny. I cant believe we have found someone more twisted then LABF. NO dont ban him after we win the SB we will need things like him around to help pass the offseason. Arafatlips great peace guy rofl

Hey greengas or whatever your name is whats your take on the war in Iraq and on terror rofl
War in Iraq? What war? Learn your Constitution dude - Congress declares war. Since Congress never declared war, what we have in Iraq is an invasion, and an illegal one according to international law. Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and all the rest should be tried and executed for war crimes just like Milosevic.
As far as fighting al-Qaeda goes, well, we didn't have a choice. There was no negotiation possible. We had to strike at them, although I think the whole undocumented prisoner saga in Guantanamo Bay, Diego Garcia, and other prisons is unwarranted and despicable. We constantly add fuel to the fire. Why do we treat these prisoners 100 times worse than mass murderers in US prisons when these guys haven't even been convicted of anything? All we're doing is angering more people which makes it easier for al-Qaeda to recruit more in a neverending cycle. The answer is to keep infinite war to please the defense industry who bribe all the Washingtonians. These guys do anything for a buck, and then put a spin on it like they are doing good for our country. Don't expect it to end - our government is way too dirty.

[patteeu]

Never one to let his thunder be stolen.

Yes, it looks like LABF took hotrod's comment (" I cant believe we have found someone more twisted then LABF.") as a challenge.

[Green Sunshine]

Don't kid yourself, it's all about the shock value and gimmick. Freedom of speech does provide the right to sound like an imbecile, I just didn't know that people were so eager to do it.
Dude, Winstoncup is a good friend of mine and you don't know me from a hole in the wall. Why in the world would you claim otherwise? 4321~

[patteeu]

George W. Bush - a cowboy who got really lucky off of his father's connections. More of a danger to the world than any other leader of the past 20 years.
Bill Clinton - I wouldn't trust him or his husband Hilarious! and I hate his tax and spend idealogy, but I gotta admit, he knew how to compromise and that's what a good politician does.
Osama Bin Laden - tough one. I was at the WTC on 9/11 and believe it or not worked there in Feb 1993 as well. I think he's ruthless just as every powerful politician is. I think he is misunderstood by the west. He wants to rule Saudi Arabia. The only problem is that the US defends the Saudi royal family with a vengeance. Bin Laden doesn't hate us or the way we live. He couldn't care less about us. He just doesn't want us to meddle in his affairs, and conquering Saudi Arabia is his affair. Bush calls him a coward. Well, in a sense anyone who sends people to war without fighting himself is a coward. Bush is more cowardly than Bin Laden, because Bin Laden at least fought the Soviets. I don't sympathize with Bin Laden because I don't care who rules Saudi Arabia.
Rupert Murdoch - a Zionist and helluva businessman. Looks like he's becoming more nepotist.
Donald Trump - did well with $40 million gift from dad. Too cocky, but it works for him.
Hillary Duff - never heard of her.
Louis Farakhan - know who he is, but not enough to comment.
Taco John - Is he the guy who says "Yo quiros Taco Bell?"
Saddam Hussein - a thug. Kinda like John Gotti calling himself president and killing anyone who says otherwise. Just a bad guy who did just about everything wrong, including raising two sons who became even more monstrous than himself.

Thanks for the response. Based on your comments I'd say you have significant entertainment potential (much like our friend LABF) so I hope you stick around.

The pre-birth/birth of Israel was a brutal time for both sides. But after over half a century it's time to move on. The palestinian arab refugees would have been fully assimilated into Jordan and other surrounding Arab countries if they hadn't been more useful to those countries as pawns in their campaign to destroy Israel. Those who were forced off of ancestrial homes are, for the most part, no longer alive. We are now talking about decendants. How much compensation would it take for those who seek a "right of return" to permanently waive that claim?

[patteeu]

Am I stupid? :kiddingme Gee, that is a tough one to answer. I'll get back to you on that one. In the meantime, why don't you consider all leaders who lead their people in war. They all kill. Truman dropped atomic bombs :bomb: on 2 cities for god's sake, even though he knew all the men weren't even there - it was all women, children and elderly. Is that someone you salute? That was intentional, Arafat's young victims are not. And Bush? He has killed many more children than Arafat had, and Bush is just getting started. Do you hope Bush suffers a painful death? I certainly do. He has way too much blood on his hands.

He sure seemed to have a lot of accidents then.

[Green Sunshine]

I have a hard time believing anyone is "a good guy" that supports terorrists like araFat
Now why would you call Arafat a terrorist? Anyone who fights for such a noble cause could not possibly be called a terrorist.

[Roffe]

Reagan was a man of strong moral courage and principle who called evil by its name and resolutely declared, in the face of scorn, that the world had no other choice but to crush it.
Reagan recognized early on there was only one way to fight totalitarianism and win, without compromise, without appeasement, without hesitation, without mincing words. It worked in Hollywood as he led the fight of the Screen Actors Guild to turn back an attempt by Soviet apparatchiks to take control of the most powerful medium in the world. And it worked on a grander scale in his showdown with a Soviet Union that had grown, by the time he became president, into a mightier and more determined military power than the United States.
Reagan didn't blink. He didn't blink when he was in Hollywood and communist goons threatened to destroy his acting career by throwing acid in his face. He didn't blink as California governor during the 1960s when his campuses were ablaze. And he sure didn't blink when he was face to face with the Evil Empire headed by Mikhail Gorbachev.
Reagan's vision and achievements have had the utmost relevance for us as Americans today as we find ourselves engulfed in a global conflict every bit as real and deadly as the battle with communism.
Muhammad Abdel-Raouf Qudwa al-Husseini, aka Abu Amar...
Arafat made a dramatic appearance at the United Nations in 1974, addressing the General Assembly - wearing his familiar military-style uniform, carrying an olive branch and a pistol on his hip - and proclaiming: "Don't let this olive branch drop to the ground."
It's no to difficult to discredit a monster who takes pride in his bloodlust, whose propensity for corruption and fraud and theft from his own people is legendary, or the people who support a terrorist-killer-scum like Arafat.
Arafat is not only a killer of innocent Israeli citizens but more than 100 U.S. citizens as well - including diplomats assassinated in cold blood.
Arafat has maintained support from his "people" by playing tough all these years. What if they found out he was actually an old softie?
What do I mean? I mean Arafat is a homosexual. There are also persistent rumors that he is a pedophile. I mean, in his private life, he is everything the Islamic culture detests - a closet pervert.
I don't pretend to think that I know something about Arafat unknown to the oil sheikhs who support him financially. I don't pretend to believe the governments in Europe who treat him like a head of state are unaware of his predilections.
After all, one former European intelligence chief recorded his own observations of Arafat's sexual antics in a book, published 16 years ago.
I'm referring to "Red Horizons" by Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa, the former head of Romanian intelligence. He relates a conversation with Constantin Munteaunu, a general assigned to teach Arafat and the Palestinian Liberation Organization operations in deception and influence designed to fool the West into granting the organization recognition.
"I just called the microphone monitoring center to ask about the 'Fedayee,'" Arafat's code name, explained Munteaunu. "After the meeting with the Comrade, he went directly to the guest house and had dinner. At this very moment, the 'Fedayee' is in his bedroom making love to his bodyguard. The one I knew was his latest lover. He's playing tiger again. The officer monitoring his microphones connected me live with the bedroom, and the squawling almost broke my eardrums. Arafat was roaring like a tiger, and his lover yelping like a hyena."
Munteaunu continued: "I've never before seen so much cleverness, blood and filth all together in one man."
Munteaunu, wrote Pacepa, spent months pulling together secret reports from Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian intelligence agencies as well as Romanian files.
"I used to think I knew just about everything there was to know about Rahman al-Qudwa," Arafat's real name, "about the construction engineer who made a fortune in Kuwait, about the passionate collector of racing cars, about Abu Amman," Arafat's nom de guerre, "and about my friend Yasser, with all his hysterics," explained Munteaunu, handing Pacepa his final report on the PLO leader. "But I've got to admit that I didn't really know anything about him."
Wrote Pacepa: "The report was indeed an incredible account of fanaticism, of devotion to his cause, of tangled oriental political maneuvers, of lies, of embezzled PLO funds deposited in Swiss banks, and of homosexual relationships, beginning with his teacher when he was a teen-ager and ending with his current bodyguards. After reading the report, I felt a compulsion to take a shower whenever I had been kissed by Arafat, or even just shaken his hand." Arafat always considered himself a "freedom fighter," not a terrorist, despite the fact that the people attacked and murdered over the past several decades by the PLO were innocent Jewish civilians, many of them children. Although he liked to portray himself as a kind of "Palestinian George Washington," he was actually the inspiration for Osama bin Laden, who was 12 years old when Arafat took over the PLO.
Without question, Arafat is the godfather of world terrorism, from the first airplane hijackings he inspired in the 1960s to the hundreds of suicide bombings his agents have carried out in Israel to this day.

[W*GS]

I'm not kidding myself, he really does believe what he says. I've known the guy for a long time, so everything you're hearing now, I've heard over and over already. I talked him into coming here because I thought it would be interesting to see how people here would react to him. He's actually a really good guy. If you talked to him about anything other than politics, you would never believe it's the same guy.

"Green Sunshine" is little more than an ignorant neo-Nazi pinhead. Ask him what the plot of "The Turner Diaries" is sometime - I don't doubt his copy is well-thumbed.

No-one who calls Arafat a "freedom fighter" can be a "a really good guy".

[watermock]

Well, look what LABS dragged in. A terrorist sympathiser. Big surprise.

Clinton and Rabin gave up the kitchen sink for peace at Camp David and Arafat flatly turned it down. Rabin gave up so much he was assasinated by his own people. Get a clue.

The first thing that the Oslo accords of 1992 did was give him more money. He promply violated it and started another insurrection. Why? Peace gave Arafat no mandate to loot and kill, a popular Muslim pastime.

I'm not even going to bother with these brainwashed dimwits. Why not just move to EUrabia where you allready have a foothold training future terrorists with French passports?

[Green Sunshine]

Reagan was a man of strong moral courage and principle who called evil by its name and resolutely declared, in the face of scorn, that the world had no other choice but to crush it.
Reagan recognized early on there was only one way to fight totalitarianism and win, without compromise, without appeasement, without hesitation, without mincing words. It worked in Hollywood as he led the fight of the Screen Actors Guild to turn back an attempt by Soviet apparatchiks to take control of the most powerful medium in the world. And it worked on a grander scale in his showdown with a Soviet Union that had grown, by the time he became president, into a mightier and more determined military power than the United States.
Reagan didn't blink. He didn't blink when he was in Hollywood and communist goons threatened to destroy his acting career by throwing acid in his face. He didn't blink as California governor during the 1960s when his campuses were ablaze. And he sure didn't blink when he was face to face with the Evil Empire headed by Mikhail Gorbachev.
Reagan's vision and achievements have had the utmost relevance for us as Americans today as we find ourselves engulfed in a global conflict every bit as real and deadly as the battle with communism.
Muhammad Abdel-Raouf Qudwa al-Husseini, aka Abu Amar...
Arafat made a dramatic appearance at the United Nations in 1974, addressing the General Assembly - wearing his familiar military-style uniform, carrying an olive branch and a pistol on his hip - and proclaiming: "Don't let this olive branch drop to the ground."
It's no to difficult to discredit a monster who takes pride in his bloodlust, whose propensity for corruption and fraud and theft from his own people is legendary, or the people who support a terrorist-killer-scum like Arafat.
Arafat is not only a killer of innocent Israeli citizens but more than 100 U.S. citizens as well - including diplomats assassinated in cold blood.
Arafat has maintained support from his "people" by playing tough all these years. What if they found out he was actually an old softie?
What do I mean? I mean Arafat is a homosexual. There are also persistent rumors that he is a pedophile. I mean, in his private life, he is everything the Islamic culture detests - a closet pervert.
I don't pretend to think that I know something about Arafat unknown to the oil sheikhs who support him financially. I don't pretend to believe the governments in Europe who treat him like a head of state are unaware of his predilections.
After all, one former European intelligence chief recorded his own observations of Arafat's sexual antics in a book, published 16 years ago.
I'm referring to "Red Horizons" by Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa, the former head of Romanian intelligence. He relates a conversation with Constantin Munteaunu, a general assigned to teach Arafat and the Palestinian Liberation Organization operations in deception and influence designed to fool the West into granting the organization recognition.
"I just called the microphone monitoring center to ask about the 'Fedayee,'" Arafat's code name, explained Munteaunu. "After the meeting with the Comrade, he went directly to the guest house and had dinner. At this very moment, the 'Fedayee' is in his bedroom making love to his bodyguard. The one I knew was his latest lover. He's playing tiger again. The officer monitoring his microphones connected me live with the bedroom, and the squawling almost broke my eardrums. Arafat was roaring like a tiger, and his lover yelping like a hyena."
Munteaunu continued: "I've never before seen so much cleverness, blood and filth all together in one man."
Munteaunu, wrote Pacepa, spent months pulling together secret reports from Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian intelligence agencies as well as Romanian files.
"I used to think I knew just about everything there was to know about Rahman al-Qudwa," Arafat's real name, "about the construction engineer who made a fortune in Kuwait, about the passionate collector of racing cars, about Abu Amman," Arafat's nom de guerre, "and about my friend Yasser, with all his hysterics," explained Munteaunu, handing Pacepa his final report on the PLO leader. "But I've got to admit that I didn't really know anything about him."
Wrote Pacepa: "The report was indeed an incredible account of fanaticism, of devotion to his cause, of tangled oriental political maneuvers, of lies, of embezzled PLO funds deposited in Swiss banks, and of homosexual relationships, beginning with his teacher when he was a teen-ager and ending with his current bodyguards. After reading the report, I felt a compulsion to take a shower whenever I had been kissed by Arafat, or even just shaken his hand." Arafat always considered himself a "freedom fighter," not a terrorist, despite the fact that the people attacked and murdered over the past several decades by the PLO were innocent Jewish civilians, many of them children. Although he liked to portray himself as a kind of "Palestinian George Washington," he was actually the inspiration for Osama bin Laden, who was 12 years old when Arafat took over the PLO.
Without question, Arafat is the godfather of world terrorism, from the first airplane hijackings he inspired in the 1960s to the hundreds of suicide bombings his agents have carried out in Israel to this day.

I can't believe anything from intelligence reports - after the intelligence reports preceding the Iraq invasion, we all know the reports are anything but intelligent. More like propaganda.

However, I can tell you this with factual certainty which you can verify with multiple sources: Reagan hated communists, huh? Then why was he registered as a communist party member during his college days? REAGAN WAS A COMMUNIST IN HIS EARLY ADULTHOOD! He has a falling out and just wanted to beat his old crew, he didn't really believe the bs he was throwing about evil.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yes, it looks like LABF took hotrod's comment (" I cant believe we have found someone more twisted then LABF.") as a challenge.

Looks like patteeu has fallen prey to the usual reich-winger circular reasoning:

"Twisted" (or fill in the blank with your favorite pejorative) is defined as "that thinking which deviates from the GOP line and/or the BushCorp version of events."

Hotrod is obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

I expected a little more from patteeu.

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/S-FriendsDon'tVR-2.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"Green Sunshine" is little more than an ignorant neo-Nazi pinhead.

Um, actually, "neo-Nazi pinhead" is much more accurate when applied to the war criminal who currently squats in the WH (you know--the fascist for whom you've been apologizing for the past four years?)

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/B-Daddy'sWar.gif

[Rascal]

Put him on ignore guys he's a raving loon.

If he wants to think that Raegan is a terroists, which is pure BS, and arafat is a "good guy, which is pure BS, that is his choice however retarded it may be. If he loves Arafat so much and hates our Presidents so much I don't know why he doesn't leave but oh well.

[watermock]

I suggest a sabbatical in Fallujah.

[Roffe]

Um, actually, "neo-Nazi pinhead" is much more accurate when applied to the war criminal who currently squats in the WH (you know--the fascist for whom you've been apologizing for the past four years?)

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/B-Daddy'sWar.gif


You have lost the war and your base is completely demoralized. The grand defection has you baffled, and while you struggle to identify why you are rejected by most Americans, we are seizeing the moment to pour on the steam.
Lefty, you have been tearing away at the fabric of America long enough.
Right, has rejected this anti-American rhetoric in favor of more traditional ideals.
The Republican administration has absolute control of both the House and Senate. And at no time in our history have we had a better opportunity to restore our republic and resurrect the powerful concepts that made America the greatest nation on Earth.
Divine intervention is responsible for the blessings we received today. The hand of of thee living God has once again protected America from the deceptions of evil men and we have been given yet one more chance to get it right.
Now we will convert, recruit, capitalize, build on and take advantage of the moment. President Bush and all Republican leaders will charge full speed ahead on issues relevant to helping America recover from years of moral erosion and decay.
Like using technology to downsize these gargantuan bureaucracies of the state and federal governments. Like using the Internet to bring an Ivy League education into the homes of all of America's children who seek higher education, and do it at a low cost, removing the worries parents now struggle with regarding college costs. Let people use that money for retirement, health care, whatever. We just don't need to support all those taxpayer-funded institutions anymore.
Offer similar opportunities on the public education front. Let the free market come up with tailored curriculum that gives parents educational choices and shut down the left-wing indoctrination camps we now call public schools.
Stop teaching "jobs" skills and start preaching innovation, entrepreneurship, self reliance and leadership.
Throw out those voting machines, mailings, punch cards, etc. and go to a numbered, three-part paper ballot with hand counts at the precincts to measure against computer counts and a voter receipt that can be checked later by the voter to ensure honest election results.
Dump the regressive tax system and move to a consumption tax or some other fair and equitable method that removes the requirements for individual reporting and potential legal consequences. There is no reason to continue to prop up a failed process that promotes senseless divisions of Americans based on income levels. America was founded by men who abhorred a caste system. "All men are created equal." "No man is above the law."
This single act will resonate across the land and solve numerous problems. The gay marriage issue, for example, will start to disappear as the tax code won't adversely affect people who make alternative lifestyle choices. The demand for altering thousands of years of tradition won't be seen as a necessity and the motivation to alter the structure of family just won't exist.
Restore parental rights and get the government out of the child-rearing business. Create incentives for parents who raise moral, respectful and law-abiding children and severely penalize those who try to pass their responsibilities on to the rest of society.
Restore the family by rejecting the "no-fault" divorce laws. Hold people accountable for the decisions and choices they make. Make it harder to get married, and even harder to divorce - and watch the divorce rates in this country plummet overnight.
Sing unto the Lord, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the rememberance of his holyness. For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

[Raider Bill]

Learn how to read jackass. I didn't say Arafat was peace loving - I said he was a freedom fighter. And while it's true that Palestine hasn't existed as an independent country in modern history, neither did Israel until the Tragedy, aka the war of 1948. :


The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history. To portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an ancient Canaanite tribe, the Philistines, that died out over almost 3000 years ago. The connection between this tribe and modern day Arabs is nil.


No independent Arab state ever existed in the geographic area Arabs call Palestine. Nor was there ever, throughout human history, a country called Palestine. The last independent state to exist in the region, prior to the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948, was the ancient Jewish State of Judea 2000 years ago.




And Palestinians didn't come from Jordan you dummy. They fled to Jordan to escape the murderous Jews who were going from village to village massacring entire Arab populations. Study the real history, not the watered down Zionist/American teachings! :charge:

In 1930 the British Mandate sponsored Hope-Simpson Report noted that "unemployment lists are being swollen by immigrants from Trans-Jordania" and "illicit immigration through Syria and across the northern frontier of Palestine is material". Indeed the Arabs themselves bare witness to this trend. For example, the governor of the Syrian district of Hauran, Tewfik Bey el Hurani, admitted in 1934 that in a single period of only a few months over 30 000 Syrians from Hauran had moved to the Land of Israel. Even British Prime Minister Winston Churchill noted the Arab influx. Churchill, a veteran of the early years of the British mandate in the Land of Israel, noted in 1939 that "far from being persecuted the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied."

L

[Raider Bill]

Quoting Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist: "There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass...Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough..."

[Raider Bill]

Even the word "Palestine" has no meaning in Arabic - every word in Arabic has some meaning deriving from the Koran, but the word "Palestine" does not. If anything, the name "Palestine" was associated with Jews. In the years leading up to the rebirth of Israel in 1948, those who spoke of "Palestinians" were nearly always referring to the region's Jewish residents. For example, the "Palestine Post" was a Jewish daily newspaper. The "Palestine Brigade [Regiment]" were composed exclusively of Jewish volunteers in the British Army. In fact, Arab leaders rejected the notion of a unique "Palestinian Arab" identity, insisting that Palestine was merely a part of "Greater Syria."


There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and then especially after the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War! In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with Eretz Israel and the Land of Israel.

[Mile High Shack]

man, NJ, before you beat the piss out of someone again, at least let him throw in the towel first ;)

[Green Sunshine]

The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history. To portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an ancient Canaanite tribe, the Philistines, that died out over almost 3000 years ago. The connection between this tribe and modern day Arabs is nil.


No independent Arab state ever existed in the geographic area Arabs call Palestine. Nor was there ever, throughout human history, a country called Palestine. The last independent state to exist in the region, prior to the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948, was the ancient Jewish State of Judea 2000 years ago.
L

And the Jews in Israel are indigenous? What have you been smoking? :hitself:

[Green Sunshine]

No independent Arab state ever existed in the geographic area Arabs call Palestine. Nor was there ever, throughout human history, a country called Palestine. The last independent state to exist in the region, prior to the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948, was the ancient Jewish State of Judea 2000 years ago.
L

So what? What does that mean? No independent American state ever existed in Denver. Does that mean the indians can come and reclaim it? Why does a geographic area have to be independent to keep it safe from conquerors? Using that idiotic logic, just about every square inch of land on this earth is up for grabs. Are you related to Beavis? :hitself:

[Spider]

Am I stupid? :kiddingme Gee, that is a tough one to answer. I'll get back to you on that one.
I will be waiting , a month should be about right .........


In the meantime, why don't you consider all leaders who lead their people in war. They all kill. Truman dropped atomic bombs :bomb: on 2 cities for god's sake, even though he knew all the men weren't even there - it was all women, children and elderly. Is that someone you salute? That was intentional, Arafat's young victims are not. And Bush? He has killed many more children than Arafat had, and Bush is just getting started. Do you hope Bush suffers a painful death? I certainly do. He has way too much blood on his hands.
Truman did drop the fat boy and the skinny man on 2 citys , taking out civilians for generations to come , but you make it sound as if it were out of the blue , it wasnt Japan was warned , and warned , and warned again to surrender , Japan was using a tactic known as Kamakazi , suicide Bombers , much like the terrorist of today , so I put it like this , we used a terroristic tactic , agianst a terroristic country that Attacked us first ..........
As for Bush ........ I dont agree with the war in Iraq , that is no seceret ....... I do agree with the invasion of Afghanastan ...............

[Rohirrim]

Quoting Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist: "There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass...Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough..."

But there were people. People who had lived there for hundreds of years. How would you like it if you lived in a house built by your great, great, great, great grandfather, and you tended the olive trees those ancestors had planted over hundreds of years, and then one day, an Israeli bulldozer levels everything you've ever known and ships you off to a refugee camp in Lebanon where you get to watch your children starve?

The Middle East, like Africa and everywhere else Americans have fought for the last 60 years, is just one more mess that European colonialism has gotten us into. How much blood have we spilled cleaning up after European kings?

[Raider Bill]

And the Jews in Israel are indigenous? What have you been smoking? :hitself:


No, but the Jews were given a tiny sliver of desert waste land by the Balfour Declaration, and in recorded history there was a soverign Jewish nation on that very spot wit Jerusalem as it's capital.The same cannot be said about the Arabs. It wasnt until the Israeli's thrived and made the land flourish that people started chucking bombs over the fence.


Hell take the other 99.9% of the Middle East and call it Persia for all I care, but that particular real estate rightfully belongs to the Jewish people.

[Raider Bill]

So what? What does that mean? No independent American state ever existed in Denver. Does that mean the indians can come and reclaim it? Why does a geographic area have to be independent to keep it safe from conquerors? Using that idiotic logic, just about every square inch of land on this earth is up for grabs. Are you related to Beavis? :hitself:
.

Your comparison is moot.

Newsflash, the Indians lost. As did the "Palestinians" after the Arab Israeli wars. Actually Israel told them to stay and go about their business, but the rest of the ME encouraged them to leave and assured them of an easy Arab victory.

[Rohirrim]

No, but the Jews were given a tiny sliver of desert waste land by the Balfour Declaration, and in recorded history there was a soverign Jewish nation on that very spot wit Jerusalem as it's capital.The same cannot be said about the Arabs. It wasnt until the Israeli's thrived and made the land flourish that people started chucking bombs over the fence.


Hell take the other 99.9% of the Middle East and call it Persia for all I care, but that particular real estate rightfully belongs to the Jewish people.

You're losing me on that one. "...belongs to the Jewish people?" Why? Why doesn't it belong to the descendents of the Phoenicians? The Persians? They controlled it for a millinium. How about the Greeks? Alexander captured the whole place from top to bottom. How about the Hittites? The Assyrians? The Ottoman Turks? The Arabs?

All the Balfour Declaration said was this, "We don't want you Jews staying in Europe and causing trouble, so we're going to just drop you in the Middle East, right on top of a whole bunch of other people who are already living there, and we don't give a shiite what happens after that."

[Raider Bill]

But there were people. People who had lived there for hundreds of years. How would you like it if you lived in a house built by your great, great, great, great grandfather, and you tended the olive trees those ancestors had planted over hundreds of years, and then one day, an Israeli bulldozer levels everything you've ever known and ships you off to a refugee camp in Lebanon where you get to watch your children starve?

The Middle East, like Africa and everywhere else Americans have fought for the last 60 years, is just one more mess that European colonialism has gotten us into. How much blood have we spilled cleaning up after European kings?


Israel granted full citizenship to all of the Palestinian Arabs who fell within its borders after the War of Independence. Arabic is an official language in Israel. Israel remains to this day one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arabs can legitimately vote and the only one where women can vote.

These Arabs that don't like it there can pitch their tent somewhere else in one of the 21 other Arab nations that surround Israel.

Israel has been more than fair with the local Arab population. It's ironic that the birthplace of civilization hasn't evolved beyond the 15th century.

80% of the former Palestine now lies in Jordan. The Palestinians already have a state IMO.

[Raider Bill]

You're losing me on that one. "...belongs to the Jewish people?" Why? Why doesn't it belong to the descendents of the Phoenicians? The Persians? They controlled it for a millinium. How about the Greeks? Alexander captured the whole place from top to bottom. How about the Hittites? The Assyrians? ." They've all died out.

The Ottoman Turks? ." They lost it after WWI.


The Arabs?." They have the other 99.9% of the ME.

All the Balfour Declaration said was this, "We don't want you Jews staying in Europe and causing trouble, so we're going to just drop you in the Middle East, right on top of a whole bunch of other people who are already living there, and we don't give a shiite what happens after that."


Until the Zionist enterprise got underway, Palestine was stagnant and mostly barren. Its Arab population was small and declining. With Jewish development, however, came economic opportunity and better living conditions, which, in turn, attracted huge numbers of Arab immigrants from beyond Palestine's borders.


The Arab myth of an ancient homeland stolen by Jews is dramatic and affecting, but it is still a myth. The Jews, meanwhile - the real Palestinians - try to live on just the sliver of land that lies between the river and the sea. Yet even that is too much for their neighbors, who cannot abide a Jewish state of any size. On the day it was born, they tried to wipe it out. They have been trying ever since

[Raider Bill]

http://www.masada2000.org/isr-us1.gif

[Roffe]

The whole world is being drawn into the current conflict over Jerusalem. The Bible predicted that just such a situation would develop in the "Last Days." As predicted, two ancient peoples are at the center of the controversy, the Arabs and the Israelites. The Arabs call the land Palestine. The Israelites call it by its ancient name, Israel. There are unique and extraordinary circumstances in the history of these people, which cause much misunderstanding by most people today.
First, they both originated from the same forefather – Abraham – 4,000 years ago. The Israelites, commonly called "Jews" today, descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. The Arabs descended from Abraham through Ishmael and Esau.
Second, God chose Abraham's line through Isaac and Jacob to be the recipients of several covenants that established them as his special representatives on earth. Basically they were chosen for the following purposes:
1) To receive, write and preserve His Word to man, which we call the Bible.
2) To be an example of the blessing that comes from believing in and following the true God.
3) To be the physical race through whom the Messiah, the Savior of the world would be born.
4) To spread the revelation of how to know God personally.
In order to accomplish these purposes, God made unconditional promises to them that involved making them a unique nation with an everlasting title deed to specifically defined land.
Historically, the descendents of Ishmael and Esau have felt that somehow they were cheated. This created an enmity that has smoldered and burst into flames at various times in history.
God forewarned the Israelites through Moses that their nation would twice be destroyed for failing to obey Him. The second destruction would be far more severe than the first – the people would be scattered throughout every nation under heaven. They would be persecuted and have no assurance of life. This was literally fulfilled, beginning with the Roman destruction of Israel and Jerusalem in A.D. 70 (Deuteronomy 28:64-68 and Luke 21:20-24).
This dispersion began to draw to a close in May of 1948 when, against all odds, Israel was reborn as a nation.
This has created unique problems for the world. Never before has a people been scattered for almost 2,000 years, remained virtually a nation in exile, returned to claim their ancient homeland and then been reborn as a nation. The Arabs and all Muslims say Israel has no right to this land because they took it for Allah by Jihad, or holy war, centuries ago. According to their belief, Mohammed ascended to heaven from Jerusalem. Therefore, it is considered their third holiest place.
The secular world, especially Europe, sees the state of Israel as a nuisance that hinders the free flow of oil from the Arab nations. So they mostly side with the Arabs for economic reasons.
There are two different attitudes toward Israel's right to statehood in the Holy Land among Christians. One group interprets Bible prophecy in an allegorical sense and says that Israel forfeited its covenant rights when it rejected Jesus as Messiah. A few in this group say that Israel in any event can never be given the land by God until they repent and believe in the true Messiah.
Then there are those Christians (and I am one of them) who simply take at face value what God has promised the Israelites. The prophecies of Ezekiel chapters 36 through 39 are one example. They all focus on the present Arab-Israeli conflict, which closely precedes the Messiah's coming to set up God's promised kingdom to Abraham's believing descendents.
First, God warns all of the nations that surround Israel, "Thus says the Lord God, 'Surely in the fire of My jealousy I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, who appropriated My land for themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and with scorn of soul, to drive it out for a prey.'" (Ezek. 36: 5) "Edom" refers to the Arabs descended from Esau. The surrounding nations are all Muslim today.
Note that God says, "My Land." The Muslims don't own it, neither do the Jews – God owns it. He gives it to whom He chooses and not on the basis of human merit.
Second, God declares to whom and why He is going to give the Holy Land, "Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God, 'It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. And I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord …" And then, "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean … I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. …" (Ezek. 36:22-26)
The Bible clearly shows that God is going to give "His Land" to Israel. Not because they deserve it, but because His great name is at stake – God cannot break a promise. It is after this that God will bring the Jews to repentance and give them a new heart. He will accomplish this through delivering them from a coming war that will almost destroy the world.
God disciplines His own for disobedience, but He never disowns them. We who are Christians can thank God for that, or we would have all been disowned. God has thrown his gauntlet into the arena with His promises to Israel. And Hell will freeze over before He fails to fulfill them, though the whole world tries to prevent it.

[Raider Bill]

-. The Arabs and all Muslims say Israel has no right to this land because they took it for Allah by Jihad, or holy war, centuries ago. According to their belief, Mohammed ascended to heaven from Jerusalem. Therefore, it is considered their third holiest place.
.


This is also a crock. The Koran never mentions Jerusalem, nor is there any historical record of Mohammed ever having been there. Mecca and Medinia are mentioned numerous times in the Koran but not Jerusalem.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Jerusalem was never a Muslim holy city until after Isreal came into being again in 1948.

[Raider Bill]

http://www.masada2000.org/isr-us1.gif




Look at that friggin little yellow dot and then tell me again about those evil Zionist expansionists. _i_O_i_

[mosca]

All we're doing is angering more people which makes it easier for al-Qaeda to recruit more in a neverending cycle. The answer is to keep infinite war to please the defense industry who bribe all the Washingtonians. These guys do anything for a buck, and then put a spin on it like they are doing good for our country. Don't expect it to end - our government is way too dirty.

you sound like you're blaming us for the islamic fundies' hatred towards the west and the u.s. in particular. why do so many american's irrationally point the finger at ourselves?
as for your remark about the defense industry, well... the defense industry will, rightfully so, remain a huge one for years to come. if you don't think that it is in the u.s.'s best interests to remain the military and technological top dog then you need to think about a few things... particularly the muslim threat towards america. it's easy to say that since communism fell that we don't need to keep the military ready for action, but the reality is that the threat from terrorists (particularly of the muslim persuarion) exists and our military can be one of the deterrents.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No, but the Jews were given a tiny sliver of desert waste land by the Balfour Declaration...

Therein lies the problem.

That "sliver of desert wasteland" wasn't England's to give away.

How would you like it if I gave your house to one of my friends?

(Nevermind--that question presupposes empathy, a trait not normally associated with republicans.)

http://www.bartcop.com/capone-ad.JPG

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

you sound like you're blaming us for the islamic fundies' hatred towards the west and the u.s. in particular.

You sound like you're blaming the Muslim world for its collective outrage re: our aggressive, lawless, and exploitative mid-east policy.

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/B-Daddy'sWar.gif

[Raider Bill]

Therein lies the problem.

That "sliver of desert wasteland" wasn't England's to give away.

How would you like it if I gave your house to one of my friends?

(Nevermind--that question presupposes empathy, a trait not normally associated with republicans.)

http://www.bartcop.com/capone-ad.JPG


Until the Zionist enterprise got underway, Palestine was stagnant and mostly barren. Its Arab population was small and declining. With Jewish development, however, came economic opportunity and better living conditions, which, in turn, attracted huge numbers of Arab immigrants from beyond Palestine's borders.


Most of the current "refugees" have refugeed themselves. They aren't even from there. Hell even Arafat was from Egypt.



Israel granted full citizenship to all of the Palestinian Arabs who fell within its borders after the War of Independence. Arabic is an official language in Israel. Israel remains to this day one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arabs can legitimately vote and the only one where women can vote.


Hell Israel has shown enough empathy I'd say. 80% of what was termed Palestine under the Brittish Mandate now lies in Jordan.

[Green Sunshine]

Even the word "Palestine" has no meaning in Arabic - every word in Arabic has some meaning deriving from the Koran, but the word "Palestine" does not. If anything, the name "Palestine" was associated with Jews.

Gee, you made an attempt to sound like you have knowledge, but you don't know jack. The Arabic language preceded the Qur'an by centuries. Most Arab words existed BEFORE the Qur'an was written. A child cannot pass his genes on to his parents. :bs:

[Green Sunshine]

I will be waiting , a month should be about right .........



Truman did drop the fat boy and the skinny man on 2 citys , taking out civilians for generations to come , but you make it sound as if it were out of the blue , it wasnt Japan was warned , and warned , and warned again to surrender , Japan was using a tactic known as Kamakazi , suicide Bombers , much like the terrorist of today , so I put it like this , we used a terroristic tactic , agianst a terroristic country that Attacked us first ..........
As for Bush ........ I dont agree with the war in Iraq , that is no seceret ....... I do agree with the invasion of Afghanastan ...............
What's up with you rednecks? Now you say Japan was a terrorist nation? Japan only attacked the military, even with their kamikaze missions. All military is always a target. The bombs were purposely dropped on civilians. I don't see how that could be acceptable unless you accept Hamas's tactics. After all, Hamas did warn the Jews to surrender and leave their land, the condition you claim makes it acceptible to use terror tactics.

[mosca]

What's up with you rednecks? Now you say Japan was a terrorist nation? Japan only attacked the military, even with their kamikaze missions. All military is always a target. The bombs were purposely dropped on civilians. I don't see how that could be acceptable unless you accept Hamas's tactics. After all, Hamas did warn the Jews to surrender and leave their land, the condition you claim makes it acceptible to use terror tactics.

try to look at the big picture, buddy. japan was an imperial nation bent on taking over the entire pacific rim. their forces treated civilians horribly everywhere they went and i am sure they would have done the same had they reached california. they inflicted more than merely military damage when they attacked pearl harbor as well. and you seem trying to downplay the carnage they created.

we're used to people of your ilk trying to downplay the islamic terrorist threat to the u.s. but now you're trying to downplay the threat the japanese posed to the u.s. and asia in ww2?

[Raider Bill]

Gee, you made an attempt to sound like you have knowledge, but you don't know jack. The Arabic language preceded the Qur'an by centuries. Most Arab words existed BEFORE the Qur'an was written. A child cannot pass his genes on to his parents. :bs:


Aren't you tired of being wrong?

"Tracing the history of the Arabic language will lead us to Ancient Egypt. Ibn Hazm, the medieval Arabic scholar of Córdoba (died 1064), recognized that Aramaic/Syriac, Hebrew, and Arabic were kindred dialects, derived from the Mudar, the dialect in which the Koran had been disclosed."

www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/arabic-language.html


"Modern Standard Arabic is used in reading, writing, and high register speech. It is descended from the Classical language of the Quran and in the view of almost all Arabs, is the "correct" Arabic"

http://www.arabiclinx.lotelinx.vic.edu.au/A%20History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Language.htm

[Rascal]

What's up with you rednecks? Now you say Japan was a terrorist nation? Japan only attacked the military, even with their kamikaze missions. All military is always a target. The bombs were purposely dropped on civilians. I don't see how that could be acceptable unless you accept Hamas's tactics. After all, Hamas did warn the Jews to surrender and leave their land, the condition you claim makes it acceptible to use terror tactics.


The Japanese only attacked military? Care to explain Nanking then?

I've actually been to both Japan and China have you?

I visited sites in China were entire villages of 10,000 people were BEHEADED by Japanese soldiers simply to test their blade and themselves (yes there were pictures verifying this because the Japanese took them to gloat).

Care to take that statement back?

I stayed with a family in Japan for 6 weeks and they were a traditional Japanese family. The parents both spoke English fluently so communication was not a problem. I was talking to them one day about WWII and they invited me to talk to the husband's (Taketo) father who was a member of their "home guard" during WWII. I of course took the offer. We talked for a long time with Taketo translating. I asked him about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and he said "Every male and a great number of women would have fought to the death to repulse your forces when they invaded. The death toll would have been in the millions." He also said that the bombs sadden him thinking of the innocents who were killed, but he also said that it saved his country from being completely destroyed as they never would have surrendured. You have to remember that these people's ideals are still heavily influenced by bashido. When I was there I saw about 7 people commit suicide because they have been disgraced in some way or another not because they were distraught like people here.

Care to retract that other statement camel jockey?

***edited to correct some typos.

[Mile High Shack]

The Japanese only attacked military? Care to explain Nanking then?

I've actually been to both Japan and China have you?

I visited sites in China were entire villages of 10,000 people were BEHEADED by Japanese soldiers simply to test their blade and themselves (yes there were pictures verifying this because the Japanese took them to gloat).

Care to take that statement back?

I stayed with a family in Japan for 6 weeks and they were a traditional Japanese family. The parents both spoke English fluently so communication was not a problem. I was talking to them one day about WWII and they invited me to talk to the husband's (Taketo) father who was a member of their "home guard" during WWII. I of course took the offer. We talked for a long time with Taketo translating. I asked him about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and he said "Every male and a great number of women would have fought to the death to repulse your forces if they every invaded. The death toll would have been in the millions." He also said that the bombs sadden him thinking of the innocents who were killed, but he also said that it saved his country from being completely destroyed as they never would have surrendured. You have to remember that these people's ideals are still heavily influenced by bashido. When I was there I saw about 7 people commit suicide because they have been disgraced in some way or another.

Care to retract that other statement camel jockey?

that's it, I'm calling the fight

ding, ding, ding

dude your KILLING him.

[Rascal]

that's it, I'm calling the fight

ding, ding, ding

dude your KILLING him.

The guy is a freaking moron who does not know his own history or the worlds history as njbil and I have pointed out.

If he wants to think that Raegan's a terroists fine that's his choice since he lives in a free country unlike all the other f***ing countries that he supports in the ME.

[Mile High Shack]

The guy is a freaking moron who does not know his own history or the worlds history as njbil and I have pointed out.

If he wants to think that Raegan's a terroists fine that's his choice since he lives in a free country unlike all the other f***ing countries that he supports in the ME.

you and bill tag-teamed his sorry ass and if this was a steel cage match, there would be blood everywhere and he would've been called out a long time ago.

[RaiderH8r]

But he's counter-culture and that's cool with the kids. Never mind that he's an idiot. This has been amusing. Somebody should do him a favor and hit him with a brick until the dumb falls out.

[Kaylore]

Wow, what a funny thread. Green Sunshine joins Mountainman and LABF on my top cooks of all time list.

Plaestine is a tool box of other oraganizations in the region to piss off Europe. The reason Jerusalen is important to them is because Islam accepts Jesus as one of the major prophets of God - just not anywhere close to Mohammed.

The word "Palestine" came from the Roman province palestina that covered the Holy Land and more. It's actually Roman and was more associated with the Jews than anyone. It covered a much wider area than what they're fighting over, but for some reason you don't see the Palestinians bothering Syria, Jordan or Egypt now do you?...hmm I wonder why? I found a map (http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~smartin/rome/images/empiremap.gif) but its too big to post directly so I've hot linked it.

There has never been a "Palestine". This would be like if the US gave a part of California to the native Americans for their own country as a palltry payment for the crap they've gone through, and then all of a sudden a bunch of racist Raider Fans decided that they should have a country there too and started blowing up old people and babies.

Lets not forget that Israel is the onlt democratic country over there that has any showing of general freedoms, general elections and seperation of church and state. We support them more on ideological terms than religious ones.

[Rascal]

Some more information about Judaea (ie Palestinia) and a better map.

http://www.unrv.com/roman-empire-map.php

http://www.unrv.com/provinces/judaea.php

Judaea - Palaestina
Roman influence in the near eastern provinces of Judaea and Syria Palaestina first came to major fruition with the conquests of Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey the Great). In 64 BC, the Jews had maintained nearly 2 centuries of independent rule from various eastern nations, but internal struggles and succession issues after the death of King Alexander Jannaeus threatened the stability. His sons, Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, as well as other political and religious factions, all vied for the Judean crown, and they eventually sought mediation from the great Roman conqueror Pompey.

Pompey endorsed Hyrcanus, but Aristobulus and his followers bided their time to resist the decision. While Pompey was busy in a minor campaign against the Arabic Nabataeans, Aristobulus seized Jerusalem and Rome was forced to do more than mediate. Pompey besieged the ancient city and within 3 months, officially made Hyrcanus the high priest and established Judaea as a client state. Despite this, Judaea remained independent of Roman authority provided they stayed within the rules of their status, and some degree of instability beleaguered the state for some time.

Some 2 decades later, Julius Caesar arrived in Judaea while on campaign in the east in 47 BC. The Jews were granted various benefits owing to the uniqueness of their monotheistic religion and Hyrcanus was officially made the King or Ethnarch. Antipater Idumean was granted the first Roman title of the area, being appointed as procurator. It was his responsibility to see to the day to day management of Roman interests and provincial oversight. However, Antipater was assassinated soon after, and his son, the soon to be famous Herod, took his place. Shortly thereafter, Parthian invasions from Syria set up Aristobolus II on the throne, but Herod shrewdly garnered the intervention of the Roman Senate was confirmed as Ethnarch in 37 BC. Later, Marcus Antonius who was given command of the entire eastern empire in an agreement with Octavian (the future Augustus), bequeathed the province along with other Roman possessions to Cleopatra in Egypt. While Herod remained in a position of authority in this period, he supported Antonius and Cleopatra, understandably so, but with Octavian’s victory in the civil war at Actium in 3 BC, the situation changed irrevocably for the entire Roman world.

Herod went to Rhodes to meet the victorious Octavian, and through his political skill, and likely proven ability to stabilize the province, continued in his confirmation as ruler of Judaea. Herod was a brutal king, but this brutality helped keep an often instable political and religious environment on peaceful terms. Despite his brutality and apparent disinterest in traditional Jewish customs, Herod was careful not to infringe on these traditions for the people. He found it vital to his own survival to seek the approval of the masses, but the overwhelming reason for his success was the administration of force to suppress open opposition. The Jews, however, were limited self-rule as it related to their religious practices. The Sanhedrin was established under Herod as a sort of religious council to oversee the affairs of faith and religious law.

Herod’s reign ended with his death in 4 BC and the now Roman emperor, Augustus, was faced with a difficult challenge. At first he appointed Herod’s sons as rulers of smaller districts within the larger kingdom, but misrule forced him to change tactics. Unfortunately, Judaea offered little in the way of benefits to Rome, as it was poor in both agriculture and mineral wealth. However, its position on the eastern Mediterranean placed between the Roman provinces of Aegyptus and Syria, bordering the Nabataean territory of Arabia, and its unstable political history necessitated firm Roman control in order to facilitate security in the region. Augustus was forced to place Judaea under the direct control of Roman Prefects, who were in turn responsible to the Governor of Syria. Though no legions were directly assigned to the Praefect in Judaea’s early formation, there were typically 3 nearby legions in Syria ready to respond to the numerous revolts of the small province.

Of the most famous of these Roman Prefects, was Pontius Pilate. His position in religious history is secured through the word of the Christian faith that saw its start in Judaea. The life of Pilate, and of Jesus Christ are both highly disputed by scholars, but its certain that Pilate was certainly the Prefect between the years 26 and 36 AD. He was considered responsible for the death and crucifixion of Jesus though many have argued, including ancient contemporaries, that Pilate was innocent of the whole affair, and that blame rested on Caiphas, the high priest, and his conservative Jewish followers. Regardless, the rule of Pilate was one of difficult circumstances with several revolts put down by extreme force. Some of his actions regarding religious tradition alienated him from the Jewish population, and even the Emperor Tiberius was forced to intervene. Threatening Pilate if peaceful administration wasn’t restored, Pilate’s actions in the biblical stories may have been less out of tolerance toward Jesus, than fear of retribution from Rome if new revolts occurred. By the end of Pilate’s term in 36 AD, however, violence and resistance to Roman rule was at dangerous highs. Attempts by Pilate to introduce statues of Tiberius, and of Caligula to do the same with his own images, within Jewish temples had the people close to open revolt. Only the wise intervention of Claudius suppressed this and restored a sense of stability.

In 41 AD, Claudius appointed Herod Agrippa as king, restoring some sense of self rule to the Jewish state. Agrippa, though the grandson of Herod, was extremely popular among the people and his administration was able to alleviate tension. A devout traditionalist regarding religion, Agrippa upheld the all important Jewish customs and maintained some degree of independence from the authorities in Rome. Unfortunately, his death in 44 AD put Judaea back under direct governing by Roman Procurators for another 20 years, and dissatisfaction grew at an alarming rate.

By 66 AD, all out revolt finally broke out when the Procurator Gessius Florus apparently seized seventeen talents from the Jewish temple treasury. This act, paling in comparison to the religious strife that existed between Pagan Rome and the Jewish faith, was simply the final straw that broke the people’s tolerance and armies were raised throughout the province. The Syrian governor Gallus attempted to invest Jerusalem but was soundly defeated, even losing the standard of XII Legion in the process. Religious zealots took hold of forts throughout the region, and ethnic purging took place all over. By 67 AD, however, the Roman general Vespasian arrived and things began to go well for the Romans. He invaded Palestine from Syria and stamped out resistance in the north with great speed. By the summer of 68 AD, only Jerusalem and the stronghold of Masada remained in opposition.

69 AD saw the year of the 4 emperors after the death of Nero, and Vespasian was one of the civil war candidates who took to the field to claim the throne. Successful in his goal, he sent his son Titus to finish the subjugation of Judaea. In 71 AD, Jerusalem was finally captured and its great temple destroyed, ending the resistance of the main body of the population. The great Jewish historian Josephus was also captured during the campaign and eventually became a confidant of the emperor. Vespasian and Titus returned to Rome to celebrate a triumph, but the fortress of Mesada and its militant occupants remained. By 74 AD, Lucius Flavius Silva, then the governor of Judaea ordered the legion X Fretensis to besiege the mountain fortress to put an end to the resistance. Building an incredible ramp to allow easy movement for siege engines and infantry, the Romans discovered that their efforts would not require a fight. They found the place abandoned, save for a woman and her children, who informed the Romans that the inhabitants had killed themselves rather than become slaves to the Romans.

Under the reign of Trajan, a large Jewish revolt broke out on Cyprus and in Cyrenaica on the African coast. Roman pagan temples were destroyed, and the conflict spread to the largest Jewish city in the empire, Alexandria Egypt. There, more Roman temples were destroyed along with the tomb of Pompey the Great. However, Trajan managed to prevent widespread revolt in the home province of Judaea and put down the trouble where it originated. His successor, Hadrian, found matters much more difficult, however, and had to deal with the last and most dangerous Jewish revolt of them all.

Hadrian was responsible for stopping Roman expansion and attempting to bring cultural uniformity throughout the empire. While it brought great success in most places, the religious differences in Judaea were too great. He rebuilt Jerusalem, first razed by Titus, as the Roman city of Aelia Capitolina and erected a great temple to Jupiter, rather than the Jewish God. Hadrian also forbade circumcision which the Jews viewed as a direct attack on their customs, and by 132 AD, revolt broke out once again. Under the leadership of Simon ben Kosiba, or Bar Kochba, this 3 year struggle would be the most brutal in the history of Roman rule and would turn into a clash involving ethnicity, faith and culture. Three full legions were needed to suppress this clash and extreme measures were taken to end resistance. By 135 AD, the Romans cornered Kosiba and his followers at Bethar where they starved to death and the war was over.

The Jewish people were severely punished by Hadrian. Prisoners were sold into slavery in massive numbers, and Judaism as a religion was under attack. He forbade the people to teach Mosaic Law or to own scrolls of any sort. Pagan temples and symbols were erected all over the province and even directly over old Jewish religious sites. The province itself was renamed Palestine; and of course, Jerusalem was already called Aelia Capitolina, to stamp out any reference even Jewish naming roots. The people were even forbidden from entering the city to pray at their own sacred grounds, and the outer wall of the city eventually came to be known as the ‘wailing wall’.

Despite the severity of Hadrian’s response, his tactics worked and the Jews fell into a long period of peaceful subjugation. Hadrian’s successor, Antoninus Pius, restored many of the religious rites of the people, and that seemingly went a long way towards healing the wounds. Over the next 2 centuries Roman occupation of Palaestina-Judaea was a relatively uneventful period. The territory received some additional notoriety with the acceptance of Christianity by Constantine and that religion’s continued growth throughout the 4th century. The province remained a relatively peaceful backwater of the empire even through the fall of the west in the 5th century. It remained a part of the Byzantine Empire until 638 AD, when the region was overrun by the Arab conquest.

[Green Sunshine]

No, but the Jews were given a tiny sliver of desert waste land by the Balfour Declaration, and in recorded history there was a soverign Jewish nation on that very spot wit Jerusalem as it's capital.The same cannot be said about the Arabs. It wasnt until the Israeli's thrived and made the land flourish that people started chucking bombs over the fence.


Hell take the other 99.9% of the Middle East and call it Persia for all I care, but that particular real estate rightfully belongs to the Jewish people.
The Balfour Declaration? So some Jews bribed some jackass with no right to the land to give them what was not his in the first place? So what. Here is the Green Sunshine Declaration: The Palestinians get Jerusalem back.

[Green Sunshine]

you sound like you're blaming us for the islamic fundies' hatred towards the west and the u.s. in particular. why do so many american's irrationally point the finger at ourselves?
as for your remark about the defense industry, well... the defense industry will, rightfully so, remain a huge one for years to come. if you don't think that it is in the u.s.'s best interests to remain the military and technological top dog then you need to think about a few things... particularly the muslim threat towards america. it's easy to say that since communism fell that we don't need to keep the military ready for action, but the reality is that the threat from terrorists (particularly of the muslim persuarion) exists and our military can be one of the deterrents.
I do blame the US for causing all that hatred. The Muslims don't hate Canada, New Zealand, France, Germany, Brazil, China, etc, because those countries don't attack and kill them. The US does. We deserve to be hated. We deserve to be attacked until we change our ways. And with the cowboy in the White House killng more by the day, it only spells more trouble ahead.

[Green Sunshine]

try to look at the big picture, buddy. japan was an imperial nation bent on taking over the entire pacific rim. their forces treated civilians horribly everywhere they went and i am sure they would have done the same had they reached california. they inflicted more than merely military damage when they attacked pearl harbor as well. and you seem trying to downplay the carnage they created.

we're used to people of your ilk trying to downplay the islamic terrorist threat to the u.s. but now you're trying to downplay the threat the japanese posed to the u.s. and asia in ww2?
And Bush's America is an imperial nation hell bent on world domination.

[Green Sunshine]

Aren't you tired of being wrong?

"Modern Standard Arabic is used in reading, writing, and high register speech. It is descended from the Classical language of the Quran and in the view of almost all Arabs, is the "correct" Arabic"

http://www.arabiclinx.lotelinx.vic.edu.au/A%20History%20of%20the%20Arabic%20Language.htm

Dude, the language of the Qur'an is the classical language, but it was already the language of that period. Think about it - how can they write a book in a newly created language? The language already existed or else nobody could read the book. Your idiocy amazes me. :crazy:

[Green Sunshine]

The guy is a freaking moron who does not know his own history or the worlds history as njbil and I have pointed out.

If he wants to think that Raegan's a terroists fine that's his choice since he lives in a free country unlike all the other f***ing countries that he supports in the ME.
There are no free countries. You've been brainwashed. If you think you have freedom, why don't you try walking down your local hick town's main street smoking a big fat joint and see what happens.

[W*GS]

If you think you have freedom, why don't you try walking down your local hick town's main street smoking a big fat joint and see what happens.

How does that action define freedom? If John Q. Public could do that, would he then be free?

Please explain.

[Green Sunshine]

How does that action define freedom? If John Q. Public could do that, would he then be free?

Please explain.
It's not a definition of freedom, only an example of a limit to our freedom.

[W*GS]

It's not a definition of freedom, only an example of a limit to our freedom.

There is no meaningful freedom if it is limited, then?

[REB]

"We deserve to be hated. We deserve to be attacked until we change our ways. And with the cowboy in the White House killng more by the day, it only spells more trouble ahead."


And with that I'm sure he wishes every mothers child a very Merry Christmas and every Jew a Happy New Year!...

I do! :)

REB

1-2-3-BRONCOS!!!!!!!

[Green Sunshine]

"We deserve to be hated. We deserve to be attacked until we change our ways. And with the cowboy in the White House killng more by the day, it only spells more trouble ahead."


And with that I'm sure he wishes every mothers child a very Merry Christmas and every Jew a Happy New Year!...

I do! :)

REB

1-2-3-BRONCOS!!!!!!!
I do wish all a merry Christmas, happy Channukah and happy Kwanza. I also hope we rethink our belligerent ways.

[Green Sunshine]

There is no meaningful freedom if it is limited, then?
I suppose there are different levels of freedom, but we are not truly free. Maybe smoking a joint was a bad example for a broncos fan site. How about this one: The government will not legally allow you to bet on our beloved Broncos (unless you are physically in the state of Nevada). Isn't that a curb on your freedom?

[W*GS]

I suppose there are different levels of freedom, but we are not truly free. Maybe smoking a joint was a bad example for a broncos fan site. How about this one: The government will not legally allow you to bet on our beloved Broncos (unless you are physically in the state of Nevada). Isn't that a curb on your freedom?

Yes, that's a curb on my freedom - you'll get no argument from me on the inane state of laws regarding gambling in this country. Same goes for drugs, and prostitution, and similar things.

Having to stop for a red traffic light is also a curb on my freedom. Or is it?

Are there any liberties that you'd be willing to have lessened so that all can enjoy more liberty, or are all reductions of liberty always unjustifiable?

[Green Sunshine]

Yes, that's a curb on my freedom - you'll get no argument from me on the inane state of laws regarding gambling in this country. Same goes for drugs, and prostitution, and similar things.

Having to stop for a red traffic light is also a curb on my freedom. Or is it?

Are there any liberties that you'd be willing to have lessened so that all can enjoy more liberty, or are all reductions of liberty always unjustifiable?
Some are justifiable, such as the traffic light example you stated. DWI would be another. However, it always seems that the government oversteps its bounds in claiming what is justifiable. It's all just a power grab, and the people in power are in position to grab more and more. In New York, we have a state lottery. The state takes 50% of revenues off of the top for its own coffers. A private business would be happy to run the same lottery for only a 25% cut, but it has been declared illegal to run a private lottery game. It's such a blatant abuse of the public and an illegal monopoly. I can go on and on with more examples.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Wow, what a funny thread. Green Sunshine joins Mountainman and LABF on my top cooks(sic) of all time list.

:stupid:

I guess I do make a wicked pepper steak. ;)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The years of George W. Bush's sour misrule have been disastrous for many of his staunchest supporters. The Heartland folk have seen their jobs taken, liberties curtailed, communities withered, states bankrupted, prices hiked, schools neglected, pensions gutted, air poisoned, water tainted, and their children killed and maimed in an unjust war for profit that's made the world more dangerous. Yet still they swear allegiance to a leader whose every action -- as opposed to the honeyed hokum of his speeches -- expresses nothing but vicious contempt for those he governs.

It is, by any measure, an extraordinary situation. How can we account for it? One answer -- offered up ad nauseam by Bush's cadre of media toadies -- is that the rock-ribbed American yeomanry placed their dedication to "moral values" above crass economic interests. This display of transcendent idealism has excited admiration even among the defeated Democrats, whose "centrist" apparatchiks and commentators openly long for some of that red-state moral mojo.

There's just one thing wrong with this ubiquitous piece of conventional wisdom: It's a steaming crock of Crawford cowflop.



The truth is that the number of voters in 2004 citing "moral values" as their priority in selecting a candidate -- 22 percent -- actually declined by more than 13 percent from 2000, as Frank Rich, among others, reports. In fact, the "values" vote was down almost 20 percent from the 1996 campaign, which returned the notoriously amoral Bill Clinton to office with a bigger winning margin than the tiny mandate Bush managed to muster, by hook and crook, this year.

Of course, the phrase "moral values" is just one more example of the Idiotspeak used by journalists, pollsters, advertisers and political hacks to debase the language and reduce reality to a few malleable chunks of, well, Crawford cowflop. In the degraded, aggressively ignorant context of the last election, there were apparently no moral concerns whatsoever attached to such issues as war, economic justice, capital punishment, national security, corporate crime, stewardship of the planet, upholding the Constitution or caring for the sick, elderly and poor.

No, in the idiom of Idiotspeak, "moral values" refers to one thing only: sex -- abortion, homosexuality, nudity. And as we all know, sex sells. It moves some $10 billion in porn and paraphernalia in the godly United States each year; and it pumps untold billions into the secretive coffers of "religious" foundations and right-wing "nonprofits" devoted to manufacturing remunerative outrage in defense of "the family." But the fact that a shrinking sliver of the electorate still gets all wiggly at the thought of body parts and bedroom hydraulics hardly accounts for the cognitive dissonance in America today.

Yet if the flop-addled punditry can provide no answers, where can we turn? Why, to 16th-century France, where else? There we find Etienne de la Boetie -- best-known as the bosom friend of the great essayist Montaigne -- explaining how an entire society can be dragooned into "voluntary servitude" by a ruthless elite through an iron chain of clientage: big cheeses dispensing patronage to favored minions, who in turn act as patrons for their own proteges, and so on down the line.

La Boetie's ideas are nimbly explicated by Shakespearean scholar Stephen Greenblatt in his recent book, "Hamlet in Purgatory." Greenblatt, writing before the Bush Regime reared its gorgon head over the land, gives us a remarkably prescient reading of the coming empire's entrails:

"It may at first seem difficult to understand why so many people would willingly abandon their innate freedoms, but in fact the process [outlined by de la Boetie] is quite simple. A tiny group chooses, for strategic purposes, to declare allegiance to a single person. The qualities of that person -- who may, for all anyone knows, be a dolt or a scoundrel -- are not particularly relevant; what matters is his symbolic position at the apex of the system. Nor does it greatly matter if the members of the inner circle have any serious regard for the person to whom they declare their allegiance; what matters is that their immediate dependents [clients] feel similarly bound to them, and through them, bound to the person at the pinnacle. Each of those dependents in turn has his dependents, and before long tens of thousands of people are locked into a system that is exploiting rather than protecting or serving them."

This type of clientage machine has now overspread American society like kudzu, choking off the natural growth of civic life and blocking out the light of truth. There are too many powerful people making too much money off a system of corporate rapine and military aggression to allow any reality or humanity into the equation. To keep the patronage flowing -- from the White House table right down to the convenience store cleaner dependent on his boss making money from the workers at a local weapons plant -- millions must pay ritual obeisance to the dolt at the apex.

Bush has refined this system by adding blood guilt to the mix; his supporters must believe in his righteousness and wisdom, or else they would have to admit their own complicity in mass murder based on deliberate deception. They would also have to acknowledge complicity in Bush's personally sanctioned apparatus of torture, exposed yet again last week, this time by the Red Cross.

No wonder they prefer voluntary servitude -- and manufactured outrage, and Idiotspeak, and witless diversion -- to the true moral values of responsibility and dissent. It would cost too much -- in money, comfort and self-righteousness -- to stand against the system. And so the machine keeps grinding on, fed by slaughter, greed and guilt.

[Rascal]

There are no free countries. You've been brainwashed. If you think you have freedom, why don't you try walking down your local hick town's main street smoking a big fat joint and see what happens.


I just did that last night. I actually smoked three, any other comments jerk or are you going to try and give me some negative rep again?

Who said I was a hick? If being anti-Green Sunshine makes me a hick, then I take it as a compliment and hope to be the best damn hick I can. Up yours camel jockey!! _i_O_i_

[Rascal]

The years of George W. Bush's sour misrule have been disastrous for many of his staunchest supporters. The Heartland folk have seen their jobs taken, liberties curtailed, communities withered, states bankrupted, prices hiked, schools neglected, pensions gutted, air poisoned, water tainted, and their children killed and maimed in an unjust war for profit that's made the world more dangerous. Yet still they swear allegiance to a leader whose every action -- as opposed to the honeyed hokum of his speeches -- expresses nothing but vicious contempt for those he governs.

It is, by any measure, an extraordinary situation. How can we account for it? One answer -- offered up ad nauseam by Bush's cadre of media toadies -- is that the rock-ribbed American yeomanry placed their dedication to "moral values" above crass economic interests. This display of transcendent idealism has excited admiration even among the defeated Democrats, whose "centrist" apparatchiks and commentators openly long for some of that red-state moral mojo.

There's just one thing wrong with this ubiquitous piece of conventional wisdom: It's a steaming crock of Crawford cowflop.



The truth is that the number of voters in 2004 citing "moral values" as their priority in selecting a candidate -- 22 percent -- actually declined by more than 13 percent from 2000, as Frank Rich, among others, reports. In fact, the "values" vote was down almost 20 percent from the 1996 campaign, which returned the notoriously amoral Bill Clinton to office with a bigger winning margin than the tiny mandate Bush managed to muster, by hook and crook, this year.

Of course, the phrase "moral values" is just one more example of the Idiotspeak used by journalists, pollsters, advertisers and political hacks to debase the language and reduce reality to a few malleable chunks of, well, Crawford cowflop. In the degraded, aggressively ignorant context of the last election, there were apparently no moral concerns whatsoever attached to such issues as war, economic justice, capital punishment, national security, corporate crime, stewardship of the planet, upholding the Constitution or caring for the sick, elderly and poor.

No, in the idiom of Idiotspeak, "moral values" refers to one thing only: sex -- abortion, homosexuality, nudity. And as we all know, sex sells. It moves some $10 billion in porn and paraphernalia in the godly United States each year; and it pumps untold billions into the secretive coffers of "religious" foundations and right-wing "nonprofits" devoted to manufacturing remunerative outrage in defense of "the family." But the fact that a shrinking sliver of the electorate still gets all wiggly at the thought of body parts and bedroom hydraulics hardly accounts for the cognitive dissonance in America today.

Yet if the flop-addled punditry can provide no answers, where can we turn? Why, to 16th-century France, where else? There we find Etienne de la Boetie -- best-known as the bosom friend of the great essayist Montaigne -- explaining how an entire society can be dragooned into "voluntary servitude" by a ruthless elite through an iron chain of clientage: big cheeses dispensing patronage to favored minions, who in turn act as patrons for their own proteges, and so on down the line.

La Boetie's ideas are nimbly explicated by Shakespearean scholar Stephen Greenblatt in his recent book, "Hamlet in Purgatory." Greenblatt, writing before the Bush Regime reared its gorgon head over the land, gives us a remarkably prescient reading of the coming empire's entrails:

"It may at first seem difficult to understand why so many people would willingly abandon their innate freedoms, but in fact the process [outlined by de la Boetie] is quite simple. A tiny group chooses, for strategic purposes, to declare allegiance to a single person. The qualities of that person -- who may, for all anyone knows, be a dolt or a scoundrel -- are not particularly relevant; what matters is his symbolic position at the apex of the system. Nor does it greatly matter if the members of the inner circle have any serious regard for the person to whom they declare their allegiance; what matters is that their immediate dependents [clients] feel similarly bound to them, and through them, bound to the person at the pinnacle. Each of those dependents in turn has his dependents, and before long tens of thousands of people are locked into a system that is exploiting rather than protecting or serving them."

This type of clientage machine has now overspread American society like kudzu, choking off the natural growth of civic life and blocking out the light of truth. There are too many powerful people making too much money off a system of corporate rapine and military aggression to allow any reality or humanity into the equation. To keep the patronage flowing -- from the White House table right down to the convenience store cleaner dependent on his boss making money from the workers at a local weapons plant -- millions must pay ritual obeisance to the dolt at the apex.

Bush has refined this system by adding blood guilt to the mix; his supporters must believe in his righteousness and wisdom, or else they would have to admit their own complicity in mass murder based on deliberate deception. They would also have to acknowledge complicity in Bush's personally sanctioned apparatus of torture, exposed yet again last week, this time by the Red Cross.

No wonder they prefer voluntary servitude -- and manufactured outrage, and Idiotspeak, and witless diversion -- to the true moral values of responsibility and dissent. It would cost too much -- in money, comfort and self-righteousness -- to stand against the system. And so the machine keeps grinding on, fed by slaughter, greed and guilt.


How in the hell does this relate to Sunshine's posts?

I don't care if you want to have every single post of yours anti-Bush, but at least keep it to threads that are relavent.

[RunByDesign]

are you going to try and give me some negative rep again?



Ha ha ha ha ha....NOW WHO IS CRYING ABOUT NEG REP?

[Green Sunshine]

I just did that last night. I actually smoked three, any other comments jerk or are you going to try and give me some negative rep again?

Who said I was a hick? If being anti-Green Sunshine makes me a hick, then I take it as a compliment and hope to be the best damn hick I can. Up yours camel jockey!! _i_O_i_

Being anti-Green Sunshine doesn't make you a hick. Having a sheep for a girlfriend makes you a hick. It figures you're from OklaHOMO you friggin' flamer. :pfbbt:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Up yours camel jockey!! _i_O_i_

Another example of those 'superior' red state "morals."

How classy.

[W*GS]

Some are justifiable, such as the traffic light example you stated. DWI would be another. However, it always seems that the government oversteps its bounds in claiming what is justifiable. It's all just a power grab, and the people in power are in position to grab more and more.

You're just stating the obvious.

What are you going to do about it?

[Rascal]

Being anti-Green Sunshine doesn't make you a hick. Having a sheep for a girlfriend makes you a hick. It figures you're from OklaHOMO you friggin' flamer. :pfbbt:

I actually lived in Colorado till two years ago, so are you going to insult them to? I would rather have a sheep for a girlfriend then that camel of yours. Have you been jockying up your camel lately? LOL!!!

Calling me a hick...that's hillarious. Something that is so typical of you liberal morons is calling somebody a hick who doesn't happen to agree with you. Pathetic and predictable.

[Rascal]

Another example of those 'superior' red state "morals."

How classy.

Oh please, you mentioning classy is hypocrisy defined. How's that second place trophy looking?

You are so ready to jump on any freaking bandwagon that has any mention of anti-bush its pathetic. Nothing but pure hatred.

But then talking to you is useless. :deadhorse

[Green Sunshine]

You're just stating the obvious.

What are you going to do about it?

For now, just make people aware. Although you say I am stating the obvious, many don't see it that way.

[Green Sunshine]

Here's the thing that always leaves me shaking my head about the Palestinians. Had they adopted the proven methodologies and tactics of Ghandi and Martin Luther King forty years ago, they would already be enjoying the fruits of an independent Palestinian state.

That is likely true, but people like Gandhi and MLK don't come around very often. That is why they are so special.

[Maximus]

What's up with you rednecks? Now you say Japan was a terrorist nation? Japan only attacked the military, even with their kamikaze missions. All military is always a target. The bombs were purposely dropped on civilians. I don't see how that could be acceptable unless you accept Hamas's tactics. After all, Hamas did warn the Jews to surrender and leave their land, the condition you claim makes it acceptible to use terror tactics.

Nice try but your logic is flawed. Bombs no matter what their size, accomplish the same thing. If you took all the bombs dropped over Vietnam... The tonnage far surpasses that of both bombs dropped on Hiroshima & Nagasaki. Yet the war in Vietnam IMHO was more brutal because the sheer horror on both sides was prolonged for soo many years.

The Japaneese dropped bombs & so did America. So, if you're to classify America as terrorist just on the basis of dropping bombs ( atomic or other ) you must follow your same logic and conclude that Japan was terroristic also.
It doesn't make a difference how big the bombs are... like I said bombs are bombs!

[Green Sunshine]

Nice try but your logic is flawed. Bombs no matter what their size, accomplish the same thing. If you took all the bombs dropped over Vietnam... The tonnage far surpasses that of both bombs dropped on Hiroshima & Nagasaki. Yet the war in Vietnam IMHO was more brutal because the sheer horror on both sides was prolonged for soo many years.

The Japaneese dropped bombs & so did America. So, if you're to classify America as terrorist just on the basis of dropping bombs ( atomic or other ) you must follow your same logic and conclude that Japan was terroristic also.
It doesn't make a difference how big the bombs are... like I said bombs are bombs!

Japan attacked military targets. Pearl Harbor was a military target. That is not terrorism. The US dropped atomic bombs on civilian cities. There were mostly women, children and elderly in those cities. They didn't choose the locations based on how much damage can be done but on how much they can terrify the Japanese. There is no comparison. Americans fought as a terrorist would, the Japanese did not.

[RaiderH8r]

Japan attacked military targets. Pearl Harbor was a military target. That is not terrorism. The US dropped atomic bombs on civilian cities. There were mostly women, children and elderly in those cities. They didn't choose the locations based on how much damage can be done but on how much they can terrify the Japanese. There is no comparison. Americans fought as a terrorist would, the Japanese did not.
Why did the US bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and not bomb Tokyo?

[Eye Patch]

Japan attacked military targets. Pearl Harbor was a military target. That is not terrorism. The US dropped atomic bombs on civilian cities. There were mostly women, children and elderly in those cities. They didn't choose the locations based on how much damage can be done but on how much they can terrify the Japanese. There is no comparison. Americans fought as a terrorist would, the Japanese did not.

I'm really curious... what high school or college did you attend to learn this marvelous history you have...

I guess the Death march of Batton and the medical experiments on U.S soldiers was a day you missed class.

[DB-Freak]

This has been the second time today I have been lost for words.

[RaiderH8r]

Japan attacked military targets. Pearl Harbor was a military target. That is not terrorism. The US dropped atomic bombs on civilian cities. There were mostly women, children and elderly in those cities. They didn't choose the locations based on how much damage can be done but on how much they can terrify the Japanese. There is no comparison. Americans fought as a terrorist would, the Japanese did not.
We told them we had the biggest f#ckin gun on the block and they didn't believe us, so we fired across the bow. Well, less over, rather through.

[W*GS]

Americans fought as a terrorist would, the Japanese did not.

What about the rape of Nanking? Biological and chemical agent experiments on Chinese civilians? What about the kamikaze tactic?

Why do you think so many Asians are still so pissed at Japan?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Hiroshima:

Hiroshima was the lynchpin in the defence of the western half of Japan. The 2nd General Army of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata, comprising over 50,000 troops, was stationed around the city. The Headquarters of the infamous Kempi Tai of over 900 officers was situated in Hiroshima Castle. In the huge complex of the shipyard they were constructing battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and submarines and the small one-man Kaiten submarines. The Mitsubishi factory was making all types of tooling machinery. The Yoshikiwa Army Airfield contained a massive store of soldiers’ equipment, a large gun store, warehouses full of aircraft spares and the Army-to-Navy complex. In Hiroshima Harbour were hundreds of small boats and one-man submarines fitted with explosive warheads. These were to be used by suicide sailors to attack the ships of the expected invasion of Kyushu.

http://www.baronage.co.uk/chivalry/chival5b.html

Nagasaki

Nagasaki was a major shipbuilding city and a large military port

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nagasaki.htm

and let's not forget that warning leafelts were dropped on every city that was on the US list of possible targets warning civilians to leave town because the city would be bombed in the coming days.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of relatively minor military significance. It contained the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops, but it was not considered important enough by the U.S. to be targeted for significant bombing prior to August 1945. It was chosen as a target because it had not suffered damage from previous bombing raids, allowing an ideal environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. The city was mobilized for "all-out" war, with thousands of conscripted women, children and Koreans working in military offices, military factories and building demolition and with women and children training to resist any invading force.[2] (http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/virtual/VirtualMuseum_e/exhibit_e/exh0407_e/exh04072_e.html) [3] (http://www.hiroshima-is.ac.jp/Hiroshima/historic.htm)[4] (http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/virtual/VirtualMuseum_e/tour_e/ireihi/tour_12_e.html)

The center of the city contained a number of reinforced concrete buildings as well as lighter structures. Outside the center, the area was congested by a dense collection of small wooden workshops set among Japanese houses; a few larger industrial plants lay near the outskirts of the city. The houses were of wooden construction with tile roofs. Many of the industrial buildings also were of wood frame construction. The city as a whole was highly susceptible to fire damage.

The population of Hiroshima had reached a peak of over 380,000 earlier in the war but prior to the atomic bombing the population had steadily decreased because of a systematic evacuation ordered by the Japanese government. At the time of the attack the population was approximately 255,000. This figure is based on the registered population, used by the Japanese in computing ration quantities, and the estimates of additional workers and troops who were brought into the city may not be highly accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

[Hercules Rockefeller]

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of relatively minor military significance. It contained the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops, but it was not considered important enough by the U.S. to be targeted for significant bombing prior to August 1945.

That's pretty good. Hiroshima was a city of relatively minor military significance, BUT it held the headquarters of the Field Marshal who commanded the defense of all of Southern Japan, was a communication point, a storage point, etc.

[Maximus]

Japan attacked military targets. Pearl Harbor was a military target. That is not terrorism. The US dropped atomic bombs on civilian cities. There were mostly women, children and elderly in those cities. They didn't choose the locations based on how much damage can be done but on how much they can terrify the Japanese. There is no comparison. Americans fought as a terrorist would, the Japanese did not.
Where do I begin.... First America wasn't part of the war that was being waged at the time. We were in our isolationalist mode and actually using back door channels to try to persuade the Japaneese to stop their aggression. They had already ravaged indochina... raping & pillaging at will.

World War II was.... an Offical go through congress war! War inherently involves terror so both sides according to your logic would have to be considered terrorist... I guess the bombs that were dropped on Pearl Harbor didn't scare any or Terrorize any Americans...? Before you answer the question... Remember America had never been attacked before.

You might have a point in calling America terrorist if you were focused on the CONFLICT IN VIETNAM. We never declared war and this would suit some of your theory but, your arguement still has massive holes in it.

You've already said that Yassar Arafat was a mere freedom fighter and not a terrorist but Israel is a terroristic state. It's ok for Japan to attack America. You contradict yourself on many accounts. The attack by Japan on America was a pre-emptive strike as I said before we weren't at war. What GWB is doing in Iraq ( and I don't agree with it ) is called pre-emption. Some of the tactics that Israel use are preemptive strikes such as the Airstrike that took out the Nuke in Iran! America is wrong though according to you??? But, its ok for Hamas, The PLO & any other group that doesn't have a modern war machine?!?!

You seem to be confused on what constitutes being a terrorist. The fact that America supplies arms doesn't make America terrorist it makes us stupid because we supply weapons to any country that will buy them.

[Maximus]

From www.usatoday.com

Officials: Israel halts targeted killing of Palestinians
JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel has stopped targeting Palestinian militants for death, Israeli security officials said early Wednesday, fulfilling a key Palestinian demand for a truce to end four years of violence.

The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Israel has informed the Palestinians of their decision. It came after generals from the two sides met Tuesday to plan deployment of Palestinian police in central and southern Gaza, to prevent militants from attacking Israelis.

Vice Premier Ehud Olmert suggested Wednesday that Israel had decided to refrain from some military operations.

"Always our decisions were in accordance with the reality on the ground and it seems that if there is a real chance that there is Palestinian activity to prevent terror ... this is something we need to relate to."

Olmert would not elaborate but said that Israel was "very encouraged" by the Palestinian efforts in the Gaza Strip to prevent the firing of rockets and mortars toward Israeli communities. Israeli officials have been reluctant to state publicly what Israel will do in response to a reduction in Palestinian attacks, saying only that "quiet will be met with quiet." (Related story: Hamas leader raises hope)

Since Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas took office earlier this month, he been negotiating with militant groups about a truce declaration. In return, the militants are demanding that Israel stop its military operations and halt its killing of militant leaders.

The groups agreed to a one-month halt in attacks to test Israel's response.

On Tuesday, the Damascus-based leader of the violent Islamic Hamas, Khaled Mashaal, described during a telephone interview with The Associated Press his group's conditions for a truce.

"If the Zionist enemy (Israel) abides by certain conditions, such as releasing all prisoners and detainees and halting all acts of killing, assassination and aggression against our people inside and outside (the Palestinian territories), the general national position of all Palestinian factions has become that they are ready to positively deal with the idea of a temporary truce," Mashaal said.

Israel is holding about 7,000 Palestinian prisoners, including some responsible for bloody attacks, but Israel has not agreed to free them.

The security officials said Israel would not act on its current target list of militants, but they warned that if Palestinians resume hostile activity, they will target those responsible.

Speaking from an undisclosed location in Beirut, Mashaal told the AP that the success of the truce effort depended on Israel.

"This is a moment of test," said Mashaal, who is based in Damascus, Syria. "It puts the responsibility on the international community and the United States to force Israel to recognize the Palestinian rights."

Israel has killed dozens of suspected Palestinian militants in targeted raids during four years of conflict, many in helicopter missile strikes as well as bombings and ambushes.

Israel defended the practice by saying that it was preventing further attacks, but human rights groups have criticized it. Many bystanders have also died in the attacks.

The most prominent Palestinians killed in the targeted attacks were the founder of the violent Islamic Hamas, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, and his successor, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, killed in helicopter missile strikes a few weeks apart last year.

After nightfall Tuesday, the Palestinian public security commander, Maj. Gen. Moussa Arafat, met with the Israeli commander in Gaza, Brig. Gen. Aviv Kochavi, at the Erez crossing point between Israel and Gaza, their second session in a week.

They discussed plans for a police deployment in southern Gaza at the two-hour meeting, which came just days after some 3,000 Palestinian police deployed in northern Gaza to guard against militant rocket attacks on Israeli communities. No rockets or mortar shells have hit Israeli communities since last week.

Palestinian Cabinet minister Saeb Erekat told AP that beginning Thursday, police would take up positions near Khan Younis and Rafah in southern Gaza — frequent flashpoints of clashes between Israeli forces and Palestinian militants. He said another security meeting was expected Wednesday.

Erekat also said he had been in touch by phone with aides of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to prepare for a possible meeting with Abbas. He said contacts with Israel were going well, but the two sides had not begun to discuss the agenda for a meeting.

Speaking before Israel's parliament Tuesday, Sharon harshly criticized opponents of his plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip and dismantle four West Bank settlements by this summer.

Sharon said that "in the past year, there has been an upsurge of voices threatening the integrity of Israeli democracy." Without mentioning the pullback plan, Sharon complained that a minority in Israel was unwilling to accept the will of the majority.

Settler leaders said Tuesday that new residents were moving in to the settlements scheduled for evacuation. They said 400 people had joined southern Gaza settlements in the last six months and dozens had moved into the four small West Bank settlements on the evacuation list.

Government figures released previously put the population of the 21 Gaza settlements and four West Bank enclaves at about 8,800

[Green Sunshine]

Pearl Harbor ... Remember America had never been attacked before.
Did you forget about the War of 1812 and the burning of Washington DC?


Yassar Arafat was a mere freedom fighter and not a terrorist but Israel is a terroristic state.
Exactly

It's ok for Japan to attack America.
Yes, but only because it was a military target and they had already declared war (at least they thought they had declared war. Due to some communications glitch, they ended up declaring war a few hours late).

You contradict yourself on many accounts. The attack by Japan on America was a pre-emptive strike as I said before we weren't at war.
It was not a preemptive strike. The Japanese military involved in the Pearl Harbor invasion believed war was already declared. Some were so ashamed to learn of the communications glitch that they commited suicide.

Some of the tactics that Israel use are preemptive strikes such as the Airstrike that took out the Nuke in Iran!
I think you mean Osirak in Iraq. That was wrong, or else it would be right to attack every nation's nuclear facilities. According to your logic, aren't each and every one of them a danger?

America is wrong though according to you??? But, its ok for Hamas, The PLO & any other group that doesn't have a modern war machine?!?! I personally don't like the way Hamas and Islamic Jihad conduct themselves. However, they are usually fighting retribution and not preemption. It's different and I won't say it's right, but it's different.

[gunns]

In 2004, we lost a great leader and we lost a terrorist. The Great leader, Yasir Arafat, passed away last week. He dedicated his life to freeing his people from the tyranny of the Israelis. Unfortunately, he died before his work was complete. It's such a sad story. The terrorist, Ronald Reagan, died June 5th from Alzheimer's. He was looney and didn't have a clue as to what was going on around him during his last ten years. Most people will say that he never had a clue, so they couldn't notice a difference. Nevertheless, Reagan was a terrorist for supplying terrorists with weapons. The terrorists: the IOF(Israeli Occupation Forces) who invaded their neighbors and taunted the United Nations time after time. It's good to see such a bad man die. I smoked a cigar that day. :cheers:

You're wrong. Arafat was a terrorist too.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Go Denver Post!

Blame America? When necessary, yes

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%7E155%7E2717811,00.html

Partisanship has denuded the political landscape of meaningful debate to the point that anyone who criticizes President Bush's policies is presumed to be a Democrat who is still angry about the outcome of the election.

However, as a critic of the president, I speak for a lot of people when I say that it's not simple partisanship that motivates us. Many of us believe that President Bush is doing great harm to the United States, and we're concerned about where our nation will stand four years from now.

As the Bush administration gears up for an invasion of Iran, Americans need to ask whether we can fight another pre-emptive war. To understand how wrong this doctrine really is, you need merely to reverse roles. Imagine that, in the face of all this saber-rattling, Iran decided to attack us pre-emptively. Would Americans shrug and say that it was legitimate for Iran to hit us first?

How many hundreds of billions will this war cost? Will the president give us an estimate beforehand or will he try to hide the costs as he's doing with the war in Iraq? Will American servicemen again be deployed for extended periods in a deadly conflict with vague goals and no exit strategy? How many of them will die fighting the president's pre-emptive wars?