Well, well, well...look what we have here on the explosives

[NaptownChief]

New Headline at Drudge.com




FLASH 10.29.04 11:36:56 ET /// Soldier to brief reporters at Pentagon within the hour that he was tasked with removing explosives from al QaQaa and he and his unit removed 200+ tons... Officer was ordered to join the 101st airborne on April 13 -- to destroy conventional explosives at the al QaQaa complex... Developing...


MAJOR: WE REMOVED 200+ TONS OF EXPLOSIVES FROM FACILITY

[TailgateNut]

New Headline at Drudge.com




FLASH 10.29.04 11:36:56 ET /// Soldier to brief reporters at Pentagon within the hour that he was tasked with removing explosives from al QaQaa and he and his unit removed 200+ tons... Officer was ordered to join the 101st airborne on April 13 -- to destroy conventional explosives at the al QaQaa complex... Developing...


MAJOR: WE REMOVED 200+ TONS OF EXPLOSIVES FROM FACILITY

I wonder when he'll get his next promotion????? I'm thinking the paperwork is being printed as we speak!

[Mile High Shack]

I wonder when he'll get his next promotion????? I'm thinking the paperwork is being printed as we speak!

man aren't you bitter

they just had a press conference on it

how interesting..........

[NaptownChief]

I wonder when he'll get his next promotion????? I'm thinking the paperwork is being printed as we speak!


Well we know he won't be getting hired by CBS any time soon. Messing up their perfectly good fabricated lead story like that.

[NaptownChief]

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.parcol33.0020.ImageFile.gif

[Rascal]

What is even more suprising is that the only news channel to even mention this on their website is Fox.

[TailgateNut]

man aren't you bitter

they just had a press conference on it

how interesting..........

Unbelieveable, they had a press conference! Does the guy have a bulge in the back of his suit jacket?????

Am I bitter? You can bet your 1st born on it!

[NaptownChief]

Unbelieveable, they had a press conference! Does the guy have a bulge in the back of his suit jacket?????

Am I bitter? You can bet your 1st born on it!



Don't sweat it...If you can't vote yourself some money next Tuesday we hard working Republicans on the board might throw some cash in a pot to help support you and Spider.

[Spider]

Hilarious! ........ Reps spinning this one hard , but nice try .........
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6323933/
A soldier with the 101st Airborne Division is seen examining the contents of a barrel in a bunker in the Al-Qaqaa facility in Iraq in video footage made by Minneapolis ABC affiliate KSTP-TV on April 18, 2003. FREE VIDEO


Oct. 29: Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita and Major Austin Pearson are asked to identify the kind of explosives removed from a facility in Iraq.
MSNBC


MSNBC News Services
Updated: 12:48 p.m. ET Oct. 29, 2004WASHINGTON - An Army unit removed 250 tons of ammunition from the Al-Qaqaa weapons depot in April 2003 and later destroyed it, the company’s former commander said Friday. A Pentagon spokesman asserted that some was of the same type as the missing explosives that have become a major issue in the presidential campaign.

advertisement

But those 250 tons were not located under the seal of the International Atomic Energy Agency — as the missing high-grade explosives had been — and spokesman Larry Di Rita could not definitely say whether they were part of the missing 377 tons.

Maj. Austin Pearson, speaking at a press conference at the Pentagon, said his team removed 250 tons of TNT, plastic explosives, detonation cords, and white phosphorous rounds on April 13, 2003 — 10 days after U.S. forces first reached the Al Qaqaa site.

“I did not see any IAEA seals at any of the locations we went into. I was not looking for that,” Pearson said.

Di Rita sought to point to Pearson’s comments as evidence that some RDX, one of the high-energy explosives, might have been removed from the site. RDX is also known as plastic explosive.

But Di Rita acknowledged: “I can’t say RDX that was on the list of IAEA is what the major pulled out. ... We believe that some of the things they were pulling out of there were RDX.”

Further study was needed, Di Rita said.

[Spider]

It is clear the Major did his Job , what he was told to do , but he wasnt there to inspect , just get the "loose" stuff , and Clean up ......... Still no questions answered ......

[Mile High Shack]

if anything the liberal media is spinning this as hard as they can.

it's obvious that Kerry should've waited, however, to jump on this one.

if he's wrong on this one, this could indeed seal his fate.

[Spider]

if anything the liberal media is spinning this as hard as they can.

it's obvious that Kerry should've waited, however, to jump on this one.

if he's wrong on this one, this could indeed seal his fate.
LOL . we have Video , We have the Majors own word on it .....
But keep comming

[Mile High Shack]

you have your perception...I have mine

[Spider]

you have your perception...I have mine
But mine is drug and Booze free ........ I see a video Marked on the 18 th showing all kinds of Explosives , Then Major says he went on the 9 th and just cleared out easy to get to stuff , Says he never saw a IAEA seals , and some how you want to spins this that the Munitions on the tape wernt there , they was moved or destroyed ......... Now I am getting dizzy

[Mile High Shack]

not going to argue...you win

spider is right..is that better b/c I know you won't let it go and this could go on for 15 pages.

spider is right, I'm wrong.

I'm just re-editing my post to let you have the last word...you win, I already told you.

[Spider]

not going to argue...you win

spider is right..is that better b/c I know you won't let it go and this could go on for 15 pages.

spider is right, I'm wrong.
you just dont get it do you ?
My main point is this , on the dates in question , We all Believed WMD was there , Now Giving that this was a Munitions Depot , We believed WMD were in Iraq ...... I would suggest a thurough search of the Depot ...... I mean realy search , I think you would agree that is a good Idea ...... But thats just me ..... Seeing how Bush was warned about this place ....... and our troops only thought it was a Staging spot ......... you dont see the breakdown ?
Troops did what they was told to do , Finger needs to be pointed at the man giving orders .........

[NaptownChief]

you just dont get it do you ?




He gets it quite well obviously...You have an uncontrollable need to get the last word and you would go on until death if needed to do so. He realizes the board bandwidth would be overloaded with these Hilarious! LOL all the while you would struggle to make a remotely intelligent argument.

On a side note, do you really think absolutely everything you post about is funny or do you just have a compulsion that requires you to hit one of the Smilies?

[Spider]

He gets it quite well obviously...You have an uncontrollable need to get the last word and you would go on until death if needed to do so. He realizes the board bandwidth would be overloaded with these Hilarious! LOL all the while you would struggle to make a remotely intelligent argument.

On a side note, do you really think absolutely everything you post about is funny or do you just have a compulsion that requires you to hit one of the Smilies?
Look who is talking . my ole Buddy Numbnuts ........ I sugeest you stick with Drudge , the real world maybe too much for you to handle ..........

[NaptownChief]

Look who is talking . my ole Buddy Numbnuts ........ I sugeest you stick with Drudge , the real world maybe too much for you to handle ..........


Like you would know something about the real world...For christ sakes you live in Casper, Wy....

You ever wonder why it has the lowest cost of living in the country? Let me help you...nobody wants to live there. Now the real question is a matter of Does nobody want to live there cause it is a dump that has little to offer? or Does nobody want to live there cause you do?

[Hotrod]

But mine is drug and Booze free ........ I see a video Marked on the 18 th showing all kinds of Explosives , Then Major says he went on the 9 th and just cleared out easy to get to stuff , Says he never saw a IAEA seals , and some how you want to spins this that the Munitions on the tape wernt there , they was moved or destroyed ......... Now I am getting dizzy


Well just to add alittle fuel to the fire (which you all know I hate to do) I can make a video today and mark it Jan 3rd 2002 if I wanted to. The dated video is weak at best. :~ohyah!:

[NaptownChief]

The dated video is weak at best. :~ohyah!:



Yes but not near as weak as his daily posts...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I try to avoid this forum as much as possible because liberal smucks make me sick...It's tough enough to respect many of you for being Donkey fans, but liberal Donkey fans is too much. In order to treat people with a reasonable amount of respect it is best that I don't get involved in political conversations.
So which is it, short memory, or have a hard time with telling the truth?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well just to add alittle fuel to the fire (which you all know I hate to do) I can make a video today and mark it Jan 3rd 2002 if I wanted to. The dated video is weak at best. :~ohyah!:
Have you watched it?

---------------------------------------

[Rascal]

I've watched, and yes the date can easily be changed on it.

[Hotrod]

Have you watched it?

---------------------------------------

What does it prove ??? Having served in the military it would not surprise me in the least if WE moved or destroyed the stuff and the paper trail of it happening just has not caught up with itself yet. Laugh it off but the military is a huge operation Ive seen some crazy things happen.

[NaptownChief]

So which is it, short memory, or have a hard time with telling the truth?


Getting close to the election so that sucks me in here a lot more to keep up with the mud getting tossed around. After next Tuesday you will probably only see me in here another time or two to give you, LA, Spider and the other resident liberals a big _i_O_i_ and a I told you so...

But all is still true...Liberals still make me sick and feel like I need a shower after spending more than a few minutes around them. Or it could just be the stench of Spider giving me the urge to clean up...Not sure but certainly not a lot of fun either way.

[patteeu]

...Still no questions answered ......

That was the bottom line of this press conference. There are plenty of questions and not so many answers yet. Of course, Kerry doesn't let that stop him from making grand accusations that aren't yet supportable by facts.

[Rascal]

Working for the military I can verify hotrod's comments. Last week 20 gear sweep assemblies for the B1B suddenly turned up. We don't know where they came from but they magically appeared (they weren't accounted for in the inventory list).

[Hotrod]

Have you watched it?

---------------------------------------


Have you watched the one where they spotted bigfoot or how about the thousands of video footage of the UFO's.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Have you watched the one where they spotted bigfoot or how about the thousands of video footage of the UFO's.
So you haven't watched it and you're commenting on it?

[Hotrod]

So you haven't watched it and you're commenting on it?


Where did I say that ???

[Captain_Poncho]

The bottom line here is that Kerry's already claimed he knows that Bush is personally responsible for the ammo being missing.

By every ounce of data we have now, we KNOW Kerry has no idea if he's even in the ballpark or not.

And yet, he still yammers on as if it's a fact.

Which makes him, to me, a complete prick with no regard for discovering the truth.

[Hotrod]

The bottom line here is that Kerry's already claimed he knows that Bush is personally responsible for the ammo being missing.

By every ounce of data we have now, we KNOW Kerry has no idea if he's even in the ballpark or not.

And yet, he still yammers on as if it's a fact.

Which makes him, to me, a complete prick with no regard for discovering the truth.


IMO they have now entered that dreaded place called the "oh crap were losing" stage of the election.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Getting close to the election so that sucks me in here a lot more to keep up with the mud getting tossed around. After next Tuesday you will probably only see me in here another time or two to give you, LA, Spider and the other resident liberals a big _i_O_i_ and a I told you so...

But all is still true...Liberals still make me sick and feel like I need a shower after spending more than a few minutes around them. Or it could just be the stench of Spider giving me the urge to clean up...Not sure but certainly not a lot of fun either way.
I see you remembered so it must be "have a hard time with telling the truth".

[NaptownChief]

Which makes him, to me, a complete prick with no regard for discovering the truth.


He is a liberal DemoRat....Please wake me when you find the first one that is concerned about truth and ethics.

[Spider]

Hilarious! ....Date on the video was changed ?
Damn that is good .......... Keep reaching ...... this is funny as hell

[Hotrod]

I see you remembered so it must be "have a hard time with telling the truth".


This arguement of if lazyhorse is a liar because he came back to a forum that he said he would not until after the election is funny. Reminds me of the kerry camp moto. Just twist it or spin it.

[NaptownChief]

I see you remembered so it must be "have a hard time with telling the truth".



Maybe you missed the part about "try"....or maybe you got your education the same place Spider got his as that really isn't that tough to comprehend but I do apologize if I am giving you too much credit.

[Spider]

Poor ole Nappy . beat down so much ..... to the point he cant post without mentioning me

[Spider]

Maybe you missed the part about "try"....or maybe you got your education the same place Spider got his as that really isn't that tough to comprehend but I do apologize if I am giving you too much credit.
No he is right , you are full of Shiat ..Specialy when it comes too football ....I have seen Raider fan with Stronger takes then you .... Max, TNS , just to name 2 ...........

[Hotrod]

Hilarious! ....Date on the video was changed ?
Damn that is good .......... Keep reaching ...... this is funny as hell

Do you have a camcorder Spider. It very easy to do. Now it you have even better equipment like the military of press just imagine what one could do. The fact is still that nobody knows for sure what happened there yet but kerry knows hes in trouble now and is willing to do or say whatever he has to to try and stay in the game.

[Spider]

This arguement of if lazyhorse is a liar because he came back to a forum that he said he would not until after the election is funny. Reminds me of the kerry camp moto. Just twist it or spin it.
Twist or Spin ........... mmmmmmmm kay , The Date on the Video was Changed Hilarious!

[Hotrod]

No he is right , you are full of Shiat ..Specialy when it comes too football ....I have seen Raider fan with Stronger takes then you .... Max, TNS , just to name 2 ...........

Ouch weaker takes then faid fans thats gonna leave a mark LOL

[Spider]

Do you have a camcorder Spider. It very easy to do. Now it you have even better equipment like the military of press just imagine what one could do. The fact is still that nobody knows for sure what happened there yet but kerry knows hes in trouble now and is willing to do or say whatever he has to to try and stay in the game.
LOL ........ I see so the TV station that taped this Changed the Date to get Bush ............ tricky bastards ........... :D

[Hotrod]

[QUOTE=§Pide®]The Date on the Video was Changed

LOL I see we agree..............Just joking half quotes are bad I just could not help myself.

[Spider]

Ouch weaker takes then faid fans thats gonna leave a mark LOL
I am serious go look at Nappys post , then Max and TNS ...... you will see those 2 Raider fans are far better then My Buddy numbnuts

[Spider]

[QUOTE=§Pide®]The Date on the Video was Changed

LOL I see we agree..............Just joking half quotes are bad I just could not help myself.
;D ... I know , what Bothers me besides the missing muntions , is the fact that this place wasnt searched and contained , then secured ........

[NaptownChief]

Poor ole Nappy . beat down so much ..... to the point he cant post without mentioning me



Certainly not beat down by you...I've drug your dumb a$$ through the mud, given you multiple wedgies and pulled your pants down in front of your fellow Bronco fans and have them laughing at your foolish self.

I've received more positive rep by fellow Donk fans for beating knots on your head than you have cars in your yard....and we all know that is a bunch. :bash:

[Spider]

Certainly not beat down by you...I've drug your dumb a$$ through the mud, given you multiple wedgies and pulled your pants down in front of your fellow Bronco fans and have them laughing at your foolish self.

I've received more positive rep by fellow Donk fans for beating knots on your head than you have cars in your yard....and we all know that is a bunch. :bash:
LOL sure you have ......... I believe you ........Ha! I am sure there were Droves Of Bronco fans agreeing with your Mark Trestman and Mike Shanahan run the same offense take ........... Hilarious! ......... you know you're at a disadvantage when you have to claim People are backing you .............
If it wasnt for my political views , and the way People feel about them , you would have been laughed out of here along time ago .............. It is My unpopular Political Beliefs that keep you in the game ..........

[NaptownChief]

It is My unpopular Political Beliefs that keep you in the game ..........



Hardly my unemployed pal...


You ever stop and wonder why your political beliefs are so unpopular despite the fact that you feel you are right? Now step outside the political arena and you have the same thing. Few people agreeing with you despite the fact you always feel you are correct. At some point Spide you might figure it all out but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

[Hotrod]

LOL sure you have ......... I believe you ........Ha! I am sure there were Droves Of Bronco fans agreeing with your Mark Trestman and Mike Shanahan run the same offense take ........... Hilarious! ......... you know you're at a disadvantage when you have to claim People are backing you .............
If it wasnt for my political views , and the way People feel about them , you would have been laughed out of here along time ago .............. It is My unpopular Political Beliefs that keep you in the game ..........


LOL I just hope your "unpopular Political Beliefs" are unpopular enough to keep that scrub kerry out of office. :yep:

[Spider]

Hardly my unemployed pal...


You ever stop and wonder why your political beliefs are so unpopular despite the fact that you feel you are right? Now step outside the political arena and you have the same thing. Few people agreeing with you despite the fact you always feel you are correct. At some point Spide you might figure it all out but I'm certainly not holding my breath.
LOL ......... And yet you cry and carry on about me having ot have the last word ..... as for the rest of your crap ........ Numbnuts , I backed Bush . thats right my idiot friend and when the WMD didnt show up and OBL wasnt captured , I went back to the democrats . sure I got called a flip flopper , Had several Bring up old post of mine where I was endorcing Bush , now wasnt , I weathered that Storm , now your Monkey ass thinks you got game ? Ha! See the way I see it , I dont care if you have an R or a D an Idiot is an Idiot .... Bush screwed the Pooch .. But as for you , you need to stick with the Garbage Drudge deals out , you cant take both sides and see , thats why you are and always will be a loser ........

[Spider]

LOL I just hope your "unpopular Political Beliefs" are unpopular enough to keep that scrub kerry out of office. :yep:
Ha! Bro ..... I hope not ;D

[Blueflame]

No he is right , you are full of Shiat ..Specialy when it comes too football ....I have seen Raider fan with Stronger takes then you .... Max, TNS , just to name 2 ...........

You could add The Lamma and Njbil to that list, too... heck, I think even Patch (before the bet with Meck) had better football takes than Nappy. Ha!

[Spider]

You could add The Lamma and Njbil to that list, too... heck, I think even Patch (before the bet with Meck) had better football takes than Nappy. Ha!
LOL ..... Now that hurt .........

[Hotrod]

You could add The Lamma and Njbil to that list, too... heck, I think even Patch (before the bet with Meck) had better football takes than Nappy. Ha!

Come on guys and gals its not fair to put stack the deck against nappy. You have to give him a fighting chance. Here are some more fair matchups

nappy vs bobsaboob
nappy vs lazywhore
nappy vs bigredidiot
nappy vs fencepost

[Blueflame]

LOL ..... Now that hurt .........

rofl As a matter of fact, I think Fadefan in general has better football takes than Cheffan... :~ohyah!:

[missingnumber7]

I just got a question that goes back to the first page of this thread...as someone who was over there and seen thousands of those damn bunkers, spent time in Taji and watched as Iraqi's would jump over the berm to come steal munitions and get lit up by the tower guards...how is this the presidents fault? If you want to blame someone...make it someone in the military...but not the president.

[Spider]

I just got a question that goes back to the first page of this thread...as someone who was over there and seen thousands of those damn bunkers, spent time in Taji and watched as Iraqi's would jump over the berm to come steal munitions and get lit up by the tower guards...how is this the presidents fault? If you want to blame someone...make it someone in the military...but not the president.
Blaming the Troops isnt the answer , they are only following orders ......
Blame the ones that didnt put enough in there to secure the area ....... How can you blame the troops for following orders ?

[Hotrod]

Blaming the Troops isnt the answer , they are only following orders ......
Blame the ones that didnt put enough in there to secure the area ....... How can you blame the troops for following orders ?


Ya we should have done like kerry said and failed a globel test then none of this would be happening.....of course who knows what would be happening instead. I laugh at those who think everything that happens is Bush's fault. As if kerry would know every detail of what was going on on the ground in Iraq :bs: Its a war folks mistakes have and will happen.

If Bush sent more troops and death rate was higher people would be yelling about that. I guess if you truely step back people see what they want anyway.

[Hotrod]

Is it not the kerry clain screaming we are over streached man wise. LOL They spin the idea that a draft is coming. Then flip around and say we need more men. Which is it ???

[Spider]

Ya we should have done like kerry said and failed a globel test then none of this would be happening.....of course who knows what would be happening instead. I laugh at those who think everything that happens is Bush's fault. As if kerry would know every detail of what was going on on the ground in Iraq :bs: Its a war folks mistakes have and will happen.

If Bush sent more troops and death rate was higher people would be yelling about that. I guess if you truely step back people see what they want anyway.
LOL . if Bush sent in More , then we could have secured the depot , Stop the looting , Established law , and Probaly Have Falujha and Ramidi under control .......... Mistakes are one thing .Flat out incompetence ..... well thats another thing ..... Unless of course you think everything is good in Iraq ......

[Hotrod]

They are using a stop loss which is like a back door draft. Then in the next breath tell everyone I would have sent more troops and Im gonna increase the size of our military LOL its all spin.

[Spider]

But what i dont get is , when everything was on track Everyone Shouting we support the troops , Support Bush Support the troops if you dont support Bush , you dont support our troops ......... Minute things go wrong .......... it is the troops fault ...... Bush isnt to blame ...... Bush put this together , he hand picked the People to run it , the people Bush Picked are a reflection of Bush , The Iraqi war has been Shiat , poorly ran , and now we will blame the troops .......... naw I cant let that one slide ..... Dont blame the troops ........

[Spider]

They are using a stop loss which is like a back door draft. Then in the next breath tell everyone I would have sent more troops and Im gonna increase the size of our military LOL its all spin.
No whats spin is blaming the troops ........ What isnt Spin is Not having a real colition ......... Spin is Everything is ok In iraq ........ Spin is OBL is an afterthought .........

[Hotrod]

I for one dont blame a damn thing on the troops but also realize this is a war. Things go wrong in war and people die. Its horrible and regreatable but its a fact. Did anyone think we were going to go into Iraq (with any # of troops on the ground) and just do as we damn well please and everything would work out perfect.???

[Spider]

I for one dont blame a damn thing on the troops but also realize this is a war. Things go wrong in war and people die. Its horrible and regreatable but its a fact. Did anyone think we were going to go into Iraq (with any # of troops on the ground) and just do as we damn well please and everything would work out perfect.???
Let me put this way , there are 2 ways of doing things , the right way and the wrong way ....... Right way Securing Enemy munitions and establishing Marshal Law .wrong way ..... Well just take a look at the headlines ......
of course mistakes will happen , during war , but F.uck ups .....Those cant be over looked ....... Lets just hope that stuff doesnt get used against our troops ... one thing that scares me the most is the green zone is getting smaller and smaller .........

[Blueflame]

I just got a question that goes back to the first page of this thread...as someone who was over there and seen thousands of those damn bunkers, spent time in Taji and watched as Iraqi's would jump over the berm to come steal munitions and get lit up by the tower guards...how is this the presidents fault? If you want to blame someone...make it someone in the military...but not the president.

The question in my mind is this: where would those explosives be now if we'd shown more patience with the UN inspectors... if this administration hadn't kicked them out of Iraq? Would they still be sealed and secure in the bunker, or would they be "missing" and possibly utilized against our troops? In criticizing the administration over the missing explosives, one has to consider that it was an option to allow the UN to finish its job of inventorying all weapons in Iraq rather than kicking out the inspectors and rushing to oust Saddam.

[Hotrod]

Let me put this way , there are 2 ways of doing things , the right way and the wrong way ....... Right way Securing Enemy munitions and establishing Marshal Law .wrong way ..... Well just take a look at the headlines ......
of course mistakes will happen , during war , but F.uck ups .....Those cant be over looked ....... Lets just hope that stuff doesnt get used against our troops ... one thing that scares me the most is the green zone is getting smaller and smaller .........


Let me put it this way, there have been mistakes made absoultly do you think that if kerry was leading this war that none would happen. ??? Do I think Bush is the perfect war time leader NO I do not. Do I think Bush is the worst war time leader No I do not. I cringe at the thought of kerry in office during war time or any future war. If he wins will I support him while in office you bet your a** I will.

[Spider]

Let me put it this way, there have been mistakes made absoultly do you think that if kerry was leading this war that none would happen. ??? Do I think Bush is the perfect war time leader NO I do not. Do I think Bush is the worst war time leader No I do not. I cringe at the thought of kerry in office during war time or any future war. If he wins will I support him while in office you bet your a** I will.
Ok I dont think we are too far apart on this ........ We both agree Mistakes have been made , there is 2 that stands out to me the rest I can over look ....
The way we attacked Iraq Should go down in History , have a chapter of its own in war planning , called how to kick ass over night and take names , pure genius ......... The after war plan leaves alot ot be desired ....... 1. Outsourcing of the military , I still believe that civilians should not run the miltary ...
2. quelling the insurgency and securing the depot .......

[missingnumber7]

The question in my mind is this: where would those explosives be now if we'd shown more patience with the UN inspectors... if this administration hadn't kicked them out of Iraq? Would they still be sealed and secure in the bunker, or would they be "missing" and possibly utilized against our troops? In criticizing the administration over the missing explosives, one has to consider that it was an option to allow the UN to finish its job of inventorying all weapons in Iraq rather than kicking out the inspectors and rushing to oust Saddam.
The UN is just as responsible for the mess over there as anyone for being blind and afraid of saying anything to any arab country. As for who's to blame in our administration...Spider your are right as to it isn't the bottom troops fault...it needs to be faced by Rumsfield. IMHO he needs to be looked at seriously, Bush needs a new military facade. They have lost some of the best leaders they had, if you look at all the retirements after the first wave. See when Franks retired and follow the line to Washington. Also, look at the fact that Collin Powell said that he is done after this election. Big loss for Bush...but bush needs to remove some others as well.

[Hotrod]

Ok I dont think we are too far apart on this ........ We both agree Mistakes have been made , there is 2 that stands out to me the rest I can over look ....
The way we attacked Iraq Should go down in History , have a chapter of its own in war planning , called how to kick ass over night and take names , pure genius ......... The after war plan leaves alot ot be desired ....... 1. Outsourcing of the military , I still believe that civilians should not run the miltary ...
2. quelling the insurgency and securing the depot .......

Damn I just wrote out this huge long reply to this and the system gave me some "invalid thread" crap. So now your gonna get the short version.

I basically said those are solid opinons in your post but wonder what you think about these 3 questions.

1. Do you think we whipped Iraq so much faster than we thought that messed up the planning? If so is that Bush's fault I mean who thought we would win that fast.

2. Do you think for the sake of selling newspapers and air time the press shows only the bad/ugly things and ignores the "boring" good news ? I hear very little to absoultly nothing about the new schools, womans rights etc.

3. Where the heck are all these volinteers for the Iraq police/military coming from if everything sucks.

[Spider]

Damn I just wrote out this huge long reply to this and the system gave me some "invalid thread" crap. So now your gonna get the short version.

I basically said those are solid opinons in your post but wonder what you think about these 3 questions.
only 3 ;D

1. Do you think we whipped Iraq so much faster than we thought that messed up the planning? If so is that Bush's fault I mean who thought we would win that fast.
As i said going in was pure genius , We knew how fast we was going in , I cant knock any of the war planning , it is a master piece ... it is the after war plan that failed ....

2. Do you think for the sake of selling newspapers and air time the press shows only the bad/ugly things and ignores the "boring" good news ? I hear very little to absoultly nothing about the new schools, womans rights etc.
Not at all , there is good things going on , the pace to rebuild is slow , much slower then destroying , I have no doubts we are trying to do good there , but with the green zone shrinking , those good deeds will go alot slower now ....

3. Where the heck are all these volinteers for the Iraq police/military coming from if everything sucks.
All of them ? # has been corrected to 22 thousand ...... So I guess that is alot ....... But even the most diehard Iraq supporters know we are in deep doo doo , somthing has to be done and fast .......

[Hotrod]

only 3 ;D


As i said going in was pure genius , We knew how fast we was going in , I cant knock any of the war planning , it is a master piece ... it is the after war plan that failed ....

fair enough but I dont thin even we thought we would get it done that fast. IMO I have to wonder right or wrong if the whole thing happened faster than we thought and the "rebuilding/exit" was not in place yet.

Not at all , there is good things going on , the pace to rebuild is slow , much slower then destroying , I have no doubts we are trying to do good there , but with the green zone shrinking , those good deeds will go alot slower now ....

And that is whos fault ??? I dont think anything can be done about the amount of time it takes to accomplish all we plan on doing. I for one would think it would take years not months.


All of them ? # has been corrected to 22 thousand ...... So I guess that is alot ....... But even the most diehard Iraq supporters know we are in deep doo doo , somthing has to be done and fast .......

Again what is fast??? How lond should it take to turn around a country thats been oppressed/tortured for well for ever.

[Hotrod]

Hmmm part of my reply is inside your quote LOL.......Im a message board retard.

[Spider]

Again what is fast??? How lond should it take to turn around a country thats been oppressed/tortured for well for ever.
as for the torture chambers , the mass graves , the oppresion , those are all horrible things , but The Iraqi People should have rebeled , they should have said , Death is better then living in fear ....... America had to fight to keep her freedom , our forefathers stood up and said give me liberty or give me death ... Iraqi people should have done the same thing ........So our invasion was timed on a clock , very little room for error ..... Franks is no idiot , he was right on the money .........

[Blueflame]

The UN is just as responsible for the mess over there as anyone for being blind and afraid of saying anything to any arab country.

You seriously blame the UN because the Bush administration decided that we couldn't wait for them to finish their weapons inspections? :o The video shows those (now "missing") explosives sealed and tagged by the UN inspectors in April 2003... what makes you think they'd have been stolen had the UN inspectors remained in charge of keeping them secured? Do you think the UN inspectors would have left those explosives unguarded and vulnerable to theft?

As for who's to blame in our administration...Spider your are right as to it isn't the bottom troops fault...it needs to be faced by Rumsfield. IMHO he needs to be looked at seriously, Bush needs a new military facade. They have lost some of the best leaders they had, if you look at all the retirements after the first wave. See when Franks retired and follow the line to Washington. Also, look at the fact that Collin Powell said that he is done after this election. Big loss for Bush...but bush needs to remove some others as well.

Definitely some of the cabinet should be held responsible, starting with Rumsfailed... and with Wolfowitz second in line.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You seriously blame the UN because the Bush administration decided that we couldn't wait for them to finish their weapons inspections? :o The video shows those (now "missing") explosives sealed and tagged by the UN inspectors in April 2003... what makes you think they'd have been stolen had the UN inspectors remained in charge of keeping them secured? Do you think the UN inspectors would have left those explosives unguarded and vulnerable to theft?



Definitely some of the cabinet should be held responsible, starting with Rumsfailed... and with Wolfowitz second in line.

Flame with the "game, set, match!" :)

Isn't it disgusting how BushCo and its shills refuse to admit to mistakes?

When they are caught with their collective pants down, they resort to the same, now-familiar diversionary tactics, i.e., muddy the waters, distract the American people, and, above all, lie, lie, lie.

First it was "the weapons were gone before we got there." Then it was "the Russians took them." Now, it's some new lie about how the explosives were destroyed by the army.

Everyday these con artists drag our country's reputation, credibility, and standing in the world community further into the dirt.

Every American should be embarrassed and horrified about what this criminal junta has done in our names.

Four more days!

[patteeu]

The question in my mind is this: where would those explosives be now if we'd shown more patience with the UN inspectors... if this administration hadn't kicked them out of Iraq? Would they still be sealed and secure in the bunker, or would they be "missing" and possibly utilized against our troops? In criticizing the administration over the missing explosives, one has to consider that it was an option to allow the UN to finish its job of inventorying all weapons in Iraq rather than kicking out the inspectors and rushing to oust Saddam.

The answer to your question is that they would be at the disposal of Saddam anytime he decided to violate the rules of his containment.

[patteeu]

Let me put it this way, there have been mistakes made absoultly do you think that if kerry was leading this war that none would happen. ??? Do I think Bush is the perfect war time leader NO I do not. Do I think Bush is the worst war time leader No I do not. I cringe at the thought of kerry in office during war time or any future war. If he wins will I support him while in office you bet your a** I will.

Most of them think that if Kerry was leading the war effort, we Americans could have just watched the war on TV while France, Germany, Russia, and all the other countries mesmerized by Kerry's charm would have fought our battle for us.

I'm not all that certain why we needed all these currently recalcitrant countries to contribute troops and treasure for this anyway. If they wanted to stand on the sidelines, I wouldn't have held it against them (e.g. I'm not that upset with Spain). What I don't like is that they've been actively working to undermine us in this effort. Some allies, huh? Why should we be mad at Bush just because our "allies" turned their backs on us. -- Strike that. They didn't turn their backs on us, they waited until we marched on past and then buried a knife in ours. -- Why shouldn't our anger be focused on those countries for not just getting out of the f'ng way.

[Spider]

Most of them think that if Kerry was leading the war effort, we Americans could have just watched the war on TV while France, Germany, Russia, and all the other countries mesmerized by Kerry's charm would have fought our battle for us.

I'm not all that certain why we needed all these currently recalcitrant countries to contribute troops and treasure for this anyway. If they wanted to stand on the sidelines, I wouldn't have held it against them (e.g. I'm not that upset with Spain). What I don't like is that they've been actively working to undermine us in this effort. Some allies, huh? Why should we be mad at Bush just because our "allies" turned their backs on us. -- Strike that. They didn't turn their backs on us, they waited until we marched on past and then buried a knife in ours. -- Why shouldn't our anger be focused on those countries for not just getting out of the f'ng way.
sorry but you are off the mark ..... First off lets ask why our allies turned thier back on us ?
After all our allies where standing side by side with us in Afghanastan , Canada was even there , remember the trial where the Canadian soldier was killed by friendly fire ?
So why would they be so adiment in helping is in Afghanastan , and not Iraq ?
I know is it nice having a short memory discussing this and just stating the allies turned thier back on us , but the truth is so much more .......
Could it be they didnt agree with the war in Iraq ?
Lets say Canada got attacked by Greenland and we went into greenland with canada , then Canada got in to a war with Luxemburg , and we didnt agree with it and decided we didnt want to send our troops , did we turn our back on Canada ?
patteeu this isnt a slam but if you realy want ot talk about this , then understand the situation , I would gladly carry on a debate with you .... But I cant when you're not equipt with facts in the topic ..............

[patteeu]

sorry but you are off the mark ..... First off lets ask why our allies turned thier back on us ?
After all our allies where standing side by side with us in Afghanastan , Canada was even there , remember the trial where the Canadian soldier was killed by friendly fire ?
So why would they be so adiment in helping is in Afghanastan , and not Iraq ?

Yes, let's ask why. But let's not just assume it's our fault just because we're bitter about Election 2000 and because we don't agree with Bush's politics.

Instead, let's consider the possibility that Saddam's Iraq was an economic resource for France, Russia, and Germany. <a href="http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/iraq1/council/russ0009.htm">Why were these country's pushing to ease/lift the sanctions</a>? What was in it for them? I'll tell you what. They were the ones who stood to gain the most from opening Iraq's oil fields and from sales of military equipment to re-arm Iraq. Let's also consider the impact of the oil-for-food bribes that we are only beginning to understand.



I know is it nice having a short memory discussing this and just stating the allies turned thier back on us , but the truth is so much more .......
Could it be they didnt agree with the war in Iraq ?

Sure it could. In fact, I'm sure they didn't agree with it. But if they didn't feel compelled to help with the invasion because they didn't agree that Saddam was a threat, they could have abstained in the Security Council and stood on the sidelines. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-16-france-diplomacy-usat_x.htm">Instead, they actively worked to undermine our efforts</a>.




Lets say Canada got attacked by Greenland and we went into greenland with canada , then Canada got in to a war with Luxemburg , and we didnt agree with it and decided we didnt want to send our troops , did we turn our back on Canada ?

We did if we started actively trying to damage their efforts by, say, <a href="http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/2346305">supplying night vision equipment to the Luxemburgians (?)</a> on the eve of the Canadian invasion.




patteeu this isnt a slam but if you realy want ot talk about this , then understand the situation , I would gladly carry on a debate with you .... But I cant when you're not equipt with facts in the topic ..............

ROFL!

[Spider]

Yes, let's ask why. But let's not just assume it's our fault just because we're bitter about Election 2000 and because we don't agree with Bush's politics.

Instead, let's consider the possibility that Saddam's Iraq was an economic resource for France, Russia, and Germany. <a href="http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/iraq1/council/russ0009.htm">Why were these country's pushing to ease/lift the sanctions</a>? What was in it for them? I'll tell you what. They were the ones who stood to gain the most from opening Iraq's oil fields and from sales of military equipment to re-arm Iraq. Let's also consider the impact of the oil-for-food bribes that we are only beginning to understand.





Sure it could. In fact, I'm sure they didn't agree with it. But if they didn't feel compelled to help with the invasion because they didn't agree that Saddam was a threat, they could have abstained in the Security Council and stood on the sidelines. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-16-france-diplomacy-usat_x.htm">Instead, they actively worked to undermine our efforts</a>.

Canada could have joined the Colition in Iraq , Turkey , Jordan , Egypt , you would think if Saddam was the threat we made him out to be , they would love to help kick his ass





We did if we started actively trying to damage their efforts by, say, <a href="http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/2346305">supplying night vision equipment to the Luxemburgians (?)</a> on the eve of the Canadian invasion.

you think all there is France and Germany ?


point is even if France and Russia , Germany said no we could have had others , Turkey wouldnt let us use our Bases on thier land , nor thier air space ....... and Turkey is the closest democrocy in the region .....
And the point these countries made was , let the inspectors have more time , and Bush stated we didnt have time , well we see who was right , we had plenty of time ...........

[patteeu]

Canada could have joined the Colition in Iraq , Turkey , Jordan , Egypt , you would think if Saddam was the threat we made him out to be , they would love to help kick his ass






you think all there is France and Germany ?


point is even if France and Russia , Germany said no we could have had others , Turkey wouldnt let us use our Bases on thier land , nor thier air space ....... and Turkey is the closest democrocy in the region .....
And the point these countries made was , let the inspectors have more time , and Bush stated we didnt have time , well we see who was right , we had plenty of time ...........

The timing issue was related to (a) how long we could keep our military on a ready-to-go footing on Iraq's doorstep and (b) the approaching 120 degree summer heat, not because we needed to get Saddam before he handed his nuke to Osama.

Saddam didn't let the inspectors back into his country until we started our invasion buildup. Once you start that clock, you can't just sit there ready to go indefinitely while the inspectors flutter around the countryside playing games with a regime that continued to be duplicitous and evasive wrt to the inspections process.

As for Turkey and the other countries in the region, I don't harbor as much resentment against them as I do against the French and Russians (and to a lesser extent the Germans). I understand that internal politics would have been rough for these countries if they had actively aided our effort. But they didn't actively work against us in the same way the French did.

If what we did was so clearly wrong from the outset, then why did we get the support of Great Britain, Australia, Spain, Italy, Poland, Japan, and several other countries? You try to act like it's clear that we were wrong because the French got pissed at us. But you discount the support we did get from so many other countries. Coincidentally, these countries didn't have an economic interest in Saddam's regime the way the French, Germans, and Russians did.

[Spider]

The timing issue was related to (a) how long we could keep our military on a ready-to-go footing on Iraq's doorstep and (b) the approaching 120 degree summer heat, not because we needed to get Saddam before he handed his nuke to Osama.
Spin you know it , Iknow it , everyone else knows it , Not once did Bush say we need to attack now cause of heat .......

Saddam didn't let the inspectors back into his country until we started our invasion buildup. Once you start that clock, you can't just sit there ready to go indefinitely while the inspectors flutter around the countryside playing games with a regime that continued to be duplicitous and evasive wrt to the inspections process.
More spin , if that was true we wouldnt have told the inspectors to leave before we invaded ........

As for Turkey and the other countries in the region, I don't harbor as much resentment against them as I do against the French and Russians (and to a lesser extent the Germans). Convienent
What Turkey did cost us alot , but hey who is counting huh ?



I understand that internal politics would have been rough for these countries if they had actively aided our effort. But they didn't actively work against us in the same way the French did.
Hard on these countrys ? I think it would have been much harder if Saddam was the threat and madman we made him out to be ....... What would stop Saddam from attacking his other Nieghbors , after all according to Bush Saddam had the means ............

If what we did was so clearly wrong from the outset, then why did we get the support of Great Britain, Australia, Spain, Italy, Poland, Japan, and several other countries? You try to act like it's clear that we were wrong because the French got pissed at us. But you discount the support we did get from so many other countries. Coincidentally, these countries didn't have an economic interest in Saddam's regime the way the French, Germans, and Russians did.
Who knows what they was promised , but the fact remains we have the majority there ......... Canada didnt have econmic ties to Iraq either , why didnt they join ?
Oh and by the way you do realize that the oil for food Program was Companies not countrys . Thats why the story died out ........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What?

Patteeu has backed away from his claim that the Russians carted off the al Qaqaa explosives?

Who woulda thunk?

A series of unfortunate events

Republicans have been complaining about liberal media bias again, their favorite scapegoat when things go sour. But it isn't the media that's biased against Bush; it's the facts.

As Paul Krugman (who certainly is unapologetically liberal) points out, the missing explosives at al Qaqaa are just the tip of the iceberg in a series of recent revelations of the incompetence of President Bush, including his failure to capture and kill Osama bin Laden and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/opinion/29krugman.html?oref=login&hp

Letting Osama get away Just before the story about Al Qaqaa broke, the Bush-Cheney campaign was frantically trying to debunk John Kerry's statement that Mr. Bush let Osama bin Laden get away when he was cornered at Tora Bora. That getaway, Mr. Kerry asserts, was possible because the administration "outsourced" the job of closing off escape routes to local Afghan warlords.

In response, Gen. Tommy Franks claimed that we don't know that Osama was at Tora Bora, and, anyway, we didn't outsource the work of catching him. Dick Cheney called Mr. Kerry's claims "absolute garbage." But multiple reports from 2001 and early 2002 confirm Mr. Kerry's version. As Peter Bergen, a terrorism expert, writes, Mr. Kerry's charge is "an accurate reflection of the historical record."

Letting Zarqawi get away On Monday The Wall Street Journal confirmed an earlier report that in 2002 the military drew up plans for a strike on the base of the terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in an area of Iraq not under Saddam's control. But civilian officials vetoed the attack - probably because they thought it might undermine political support for the war against Saddam. So Mr. Zarqawi, like Osama, was given the chance to kill another day.

The situation in Iraq Dick Cheney is telling supporters that Iraq is a "remarkable success story." But the news from Iraq just keeps getting worse. After 49 Iraqi National Guard recruits were killed, execution style, even Ayad Allawi, the Iraqi prime minister - who usually acts as a de facto spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign - accused coalition forces of "gross negligence." It's now clear that the insurgency is much larger than U.S. officials initially acknowledged, and that Iraqi security forces have been heavily infiltrated.

$70 billion more. Earlier this week The Washington Post reported that administration officials were planning to seek an additional $70 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan after the election. Whatever the precise number, it has long been obvious to knowledgeable observers that this was coming, but the news will come as a shock to many people who still don't realize how deep a quagmire Mr. Bush has gotten us into.

[patteeu]

Spin you know it , Iknow it , everyone else knows it , Not once did Bush say we need to attack now cause of heat .......

You are probably right. Bush probably never said it (in public) and his Generals probably never said it (in public), but there were plenty of retired Generals and other military analysts who said it was a significant issue.

‘If they began moving now, it would be early Mar. before a British land force was ready for action... to ensure the campaign does not last into the Iraqi summer. This is because they will have to wear gas masks and nuclear, biological and chemical warfare suits. Even on Salisbury Plain in the winter they are impossibly hot to work in, so the belief has always been that any campaign in Iraq should be waged in the cooler first four months or last three months of the year.' (Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent for the Daily Telegraph, 22 Nov. 2002, p. 16)

And as for maintaining a war footing for an indefinite time:

The delay would create more time for inspectors to find incriminating materials. However, the British military has warned Mr Blair ‘that any proposals to postpone an attack until the autumn could mean having to bring our forces home again’. A senior Whitehall source said in Jan., ‘In practical terms you cannot keep such a large number of troops throughout the summer months on enhanced stand- by. The Prime Minister risks total meltdown if troops are recalled. His credibility would be shot to pieces.’ But a big delay was ‘becoming a very real possibility.’ (London Mirror, 10 Jan., p. 5)

Both of these passages came from <a href="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=3121">this article</a>.

More spin , if that was true we wouldnt have told the inspectors to leave before we invaded ........

Huh? That doesn't make any sense.

Convienent
What Turkey did cost us alot , but hey who is counting huh ?

Well if you come at it from the mindset that others owe us whatever we demand from them, then I guess that would be right. But that's not how I look at things. If we want to invade Iraq, it is up to us to do it on our own and with the help of those who we can convince to help us. The Turks didn't owe us the use of their territory and we were unable to convince them to provide it voluntarily. That's far different from the obstacles France, for example, threw in our path. It's the difference between minding your own business and interfering in a counterproductive way. The difference between abstention and veto. The difference between not selling military equipment to either side and selling it to the wrong side. Your statement shows that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of my argument.

Hard on these countrys ? I think it would have been much harder if Saddam was the threat and madman we made him out to be ....... What would stop Saddam from attacking his other Nieghbors , after all according to Bush Saddam had the means ............

Our decision to invade wasn't taken to keep Saddam from invading Turkey (or any other neighbor). It was taken to keep Saddam from continuing to stoke the terrorist culture of the middle-east and to keep him from joining forces with those who sought to hurt the US and to damage the engines of the global economy (as a means to drive the infidels out of their lands and establish a new Caliphate).

Who knows what they was promised , but the fact remains we have the majority there ......... Canada didnt have econmic ties to Iraq either , why didnt they join ?
Oh and by the way you do realize that the oil for food Program was Companies not countrys . Thats why the story died out ........

Canada didn't join because they didn't want to. I would have preferred getting their support, but again, I don't think they owed it to us. They also didn't do anything that I know of to actively undermine us.

As for the oil-for-food scandal, it was people, not companies or countries. People of power and influence. UN people (the guy who ran the program and Kofi Annan's son to name a couple), French people, Russian people, and maybe even some British and American people, among others. And it hasn't died out. It is being investigated (by Paul Volker for example). The guilty (or at least those in the best position to provide answers) are stonewalling and hoping that a John Kerry election will lead to a lack of interest in really pursuing the matter to a definitive conclusion. (I admit that this last sentence does contain some speculation on my part, but I think it's reasonable speculation given that John Kerry has promised to make mending fences with the international community one of his highest priorities).

-------------------------

Now I'm afraid that I'm going to have to make a couple final posts and go to bed so I can get up early tomorrow and leave for the weekend. So now's your chance to get that last word and slap a few more "spin spin spin" comments my way if you want. ;)

Have a good weekend. Go Atlanta :P

[patteeu]

What?

Patteeu has backed away from his claim that the Russians carted off the al Qaqaa explosives?

Who woulda thunk?

I'm an honest independent (although in this election cycle, I'm a Bush partisan to be sure). :)

I've backed away from that story because it's clear to me that we don't know all the facts. There are too many conflicting stories and the video from the ABC affiliate seems to show that there was something left at Al Qaqaa after the invasion. Whether that something was 300+ tons of HMX and RDX or whether it was something less than that, we still don't know for sure.

I do believe that there is good reason to suspect that something was hauled away to Syria before/during the invasion. But again, I don't have any proof so I can't say for sure.

[watermock]

This is rediculous.

There was no way for them to remove 300 tons of explosives, we controled the road.

They were either taken out, we blew them up or whatever.

It's ludicrous. They were not looted whatsoever. Go dream your delusions. It's rediculous. We have blown up hundreds of thousands of Russian and French weapons.

Do you even have a clue that this amounts to less than 1 percent of weapons cache?

There were a million TONS of weapons! WTF is wrong with you people?

A MILLION TONS. WE HAVE DISPOSED OF 4OO MILLION TONS. What the hell is wrong with you people? THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THE IAEA SHOULD OF SEALED THE SITE AND DESTROYED IT.

What the **** is wrong with you people? We asked to have it ****ing destroyed. We asked to have these explosives destoyed years ago. What is wrong with you people?

[Blueflame]

The answer to your question is that they would be at the disposal of Saddam anytime he decided to violate the rules of his containment.

If the UN intended to just let Saddam keep those explosives, why were they catalogued (tagged) and sealed? I'd be very interested in reading some substantiating material to support the contention that the explosives would have been left there, unguarded and "at Saddam's disposal" had the UN been afforded the time to complete their weapons search.

[Spider]

You are probably right. Bush probably never said it (in public) and his Generals probably never said it (in public), but there were plenty of retired Generals and other military analysts who said it was a significant issue.
We could have waited a year , 6 Months , 2 years even , point is we had time , and plenty of it



And as for maintaining a war footing for an indefinite time:

The delay would create more time for inspectors to find incriminating materials. However, the British military has warned Mr Blair ‘that any proposals to postpone an attack until the autumn could mean having to bring our forces home again’. A senior Whitehall source said in Jan., ‘In practical terms you cannot keep such a large number of troops throughout the summer months on enhanced stand- by. The Prime Minister risks total meltdown if troops are recalled. His credibility would be shot to pieces.’ But a big delay was ‘becoming a very real possibility.’ (London Mirror, 10 Jan., p. 5)

Both of these passages came from <a href="http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=3121">this article</a>.

Oh the inconvience huh .... yeah it is much better to rush in and be wrong , then wait and be right


Huh? That doesn't make any sense.
We told the inspectors to get out before we invaded , your claim was they wasnt even there ........



Well if you come at it from the mindset that others owe us whatever we demand from them,
What in the hell ? they cost us in troop deployment , they cost us a "prong of attack" from the north , they didnt cost us $$'s so there is no collecting what they owe us , my point was , if Saddam would have been a threat , they would have allowed us to deploy from turkey giving s the Northern attack ..........


then I guess that would be right. But that's not how I look at things. If we want to invade Iraq, it is up to us to do it on our own and with the help of those who we can convince to help us. The Turks didn't owe us the use of their territory and we were unable to convince them to provide it voluntarily. That's far different from the obstacles France, for example, threw in our path. It's the difference between minding your own business and interfering in a counterproductive way. The difference between abstention and veto. The difference between not selling military equipment to either side and selling it to the wrong side. Your statement shows that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of my argument.
What ??? the worst thing sold to Saddam under the sanctions was F.O. ( fiber optics ) that was done by China , in fact some of the IUD we have found have been from old China motors ............



Our decision to invade wasn't taken to keep Saddam from invading Turkey (or any other neighbor). It was taken to keep Saddam from continuing to stoke the terrorist culture of the middle-east and to keep him from joining forces with those who sought to hurt the US and to damage the engines of the global economy (as a means to drive the infidels out of their lands and establish a new Caliphate).
thats crap and you know it , Saudia Arabia has done more to support terrorism , then any other country , and yet we are not invading S.A. ....that argument wont hold water ........



Canada didn't join because they didn't want to. I would have preferred getting their support, but again, I don't think they owed it to us. They also didn't do anything that I know of to actively undermine us.
But Saddam was the next Hitler , surely Canada didnt want another Hitler ....

As for the oil-for-food scandal, it was people, not companies or countries. People of power and influence. UN people (the guy who ran the program and Kofi Annan's son to name a couple), French people, Russian people, and maybe even some British and American people, among others. And it hasn't died out. It is being investigated (by Paul Volker for example). The guilty (or at least those in the best position to provide answers) are stonewalling and hoping that a John Kerry election will lead to a lack of interest in really pursuing the matter to a definitive conclusion. (I admit that this last sentence does contain some speculation on my part, but I think it's reasonable speculation given that John Kerry has promised to make mending fences with the international community one of his highest priorities).

-------------------------

Last I knew People made up companies , there was a French bank and a few Oil comapnies involved .......

Now I'm afraid that I'm going to have to make a couple final posts and go to bed so I can get up early tomorrow and leave for the weekend. So now's your chance to get that last word and slap a few more "spin spin spin" comments my way if you want. ;)

Have a good weekend. Go Atlanta :P
have a good weekend spin miester ;D

[patteeu]

If the UN intended to just let Saddam keep those explosives, why were they catalogued (tagged) and sealed? I'd be very interested in reading some substantiating material to support the contention that the explosives would have been left there, unguarded and "at Saddam's disposal" had the UN been afforded the time to complete their weapons search.

OK, here you go:

The chief American weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, told The New York Sun yesterday that in 1995, when he was a member of the U.N. inspections team in Iraq, he urged the United Nations' atomic watchdog to remove tons of explosives that have since been declared missing.

Mr. Duelfer said he was rebuffed at the time by the Vienna-based agency because its officials were not convinced the presence of the HMX, RDX, and PETN explosives was directly related to Saddam Hussein's programs to amass weapons of mass destruction.

Instead of accepting recommendations to destroy the stocks, Mr. Duelfer said, the atomic-energy agency opted to continue to monitor them.

By e-mail, Mr. Duelfer wrote the Sun, "The policy was if acquired for the WMD program and used for it, it should be subject for destruction. The HMX was just that. Nevertheless the IAEA decided to let Iraq keep the stuff, like they needed more explosives."

http://www.nysun.com/article/3826


Of course, if Saddam decided to use the explosives in question (or give them away to terrorists), he'd have to overcome the obstacle of the IAEA seals... by sending some flunky with bolt cutters to open the bunker (or simply bypass the seals by removing the ventilation grates, perhaps). And he would have to realize that the next time he allowed UN inspectors to visit the site, he might be found out and suffer some verbal condemnation from the UN.

[errand]

I wonder when he'll get his next promotion????? I'm thinking the paperwork is being printed as we speak!

Yeah, kind of like Bush's TANG conduct reports?

What I think is odd is that this story broke on Oct. 25th (BTW thanks for the birthday thread guys and gals, I've been busy trying to get moved into my new house and had very little time to play on the internets)....anyways, this story broke on the 25th of October.

A story of how explosives were missing and could be used to kill our soldiers and marines in Iraq.....and the DNC and the media raced to be the first to blame Bush for it.

The odd thing about this is going over the presidential debates from Oct. 8th, nominee John Kerry made the comment that ammo dumps weren't being secured, and that weapons from them were being used to kill our troops in Iraq.

Can any of you libs tell us how John Kerry knew about this two and a half weeks prior to the story breaking?

[errand]

IMO they have now entered that dreaded place called the "oh crap were losing" stage of the election.

John Kerry is falling out of the tree and is grasping at whatever branch he can grab in the hopes it'll save him from becoming a mess on the rocks below.

Anyone who served in a forward unit of the military would tell you that if they came upon an ammo dump (especially a known-confirmed ammo dump) it would have been secured...period without fail. Not to mention the contents of said ammo dump would also be inventoried as best it could.

[errand]

Hilarious! ....Date on the video was changed ?
Damn that is good .......... Keep reaching ...... this is funny as hell

Are you saying it's not possible?

After CBS got busted on the forged documents, would it be unreasonable for anyone to think the media makes crap up to forward their agenda? Especially when one of ABC's executives said that the media would give Kerry and extra 15 points in the polls? And they also said they should report the news in a favorable light for Kerry?

For someone who seems to love conspiracy theories, you sure can't stand any that might be coming from the liberal media.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Errand = a GOP version of Baghdad Bob.

http://www.bartcop.com/ir-stuff-happens.gif

[errand]

LOL . if Bush sent in More , then we could have secured the depot , Stop the looting , Established law , and Probaly Have Falujha and Ramidi under control .......... Mistakes are one thing .Flat out incompetence ..... well thats another thing ..... Unless of course you think everything is good in Iraq ......


So which is it spider, we never should have gone there to begin with or we should have went in with more troops?

Bush sent what the generals asked for....and has said numerous times that if they ask for more they'd get more.

BTW aren't you one of those who bitched about the cost of the war? Now you want to know why we didn't spend even more money to sign up even more troops to secure an ammo dump and protect other areas?

I'm telling you now as a former Marine, no unit would leave that ammo dump unsecured after finding out it contained munitions and explosives...and the reason why is because of what you liberal clowns are trying claim happened.....that the enemy might use them against us.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

NewsMax predicts Kerry Victory: Freepers turn on them

Their beloved NewsMax delivers the truth (for once.)

NewsMax: High Turnout Means Kerry Victory

Prediction: the anti-Bushies will defeat the pro-Bushies tomorrow night by 3 points in the popular vote and will garner over 280 electoral votes.

John Kerry - sitting atop the surfboard on this anti-Bush wave - will be the President-Elect.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/1/90638.shtml

Heh heh heh!

Priceless. ;D

Pathetic, delusional, marginalized idiots, the whole lot. The intelligent ones bailed over the summer and left the cave-dwellers to pick at flea bites and curse the commies all around them.

[errand]

The question in my mind is this: where would those explosives be now if we'd shown more patience with the UN inspectors... if this administration hadn't kicked them out of Iraq? Would they still be sealed and secure in the bunker, or would they be "missing" and possibly utilized against our troops? In criticizing the administration over the missing explosives, one has to consider that it was an option to allow the UN to finish its job of inventorying all weapons in Iraq rather than kicking out the inspectors and rushing to oust Saddam.

So which is it Blueflame? According to ABC news these explosives already had been tagged by the UN inspectors, now your wondering why we didn't let them have time to locate and tag these?

The UN inspectors were suppose to be making sure he was disarming. and having that much of that stuff was a direct violation of the UN resolution. Which in and of itself gave Bush the right to remove and disarm Saddam

You do know that the UN was told to destroy these same Al Qaqaa munitions back in '95? So tell us what happened? Why were they not destroyed? Why is there no outrage on your part that the UN failed to destroy explosives that Saddam wasn't suppose to have in his possesion?

You don't think the oil for food program had anything to do with Saddam getting away with not destroying his explosives. Oh, and BTW, when are you libs ever going to criticize the UN for it's failures?

[patteeu]

We could have waited a year , 6 Months , 2 years even , point is we had time , and plenty of it


Oh the inconvience huh .... yeah it is much better to rush in and be wrong , then wait and be right

You say we could have waited, I say that wasn't a realistic option. I provided a couple of quotes (from people who most likely know more about this than either of us) that support my position. You don't have to believe it.

We told the inspectors to get out before we invaded , your claim was they wasnt even there ........

You misunderstand my claim. My claim is that the inspectors, who had been kicked out years earlier by Saddam, didn't re-enter Iraq until we started deploying troops and supplies for an invasion. When Saddam saw that we were moving troops into position, he agreed to admit the inspectors again precisely so he could string us along and get people like you to think that maybe an invasion wasn't necessary afterall. After months of inspection and UN negotiations, Saddam was still refusing to fully cooperate with the inspectors and refusing to fully account for the weapons we know he once had, so the decision was made to invade. Immediately prior to the invasion, we advised the inspectors that it was time to either leave Iraq or stay in a war zone at their own risk. Understandably, they left.

What in the hell ? they cost us in troop deployment , they cost us a "prong of attack" from the north , they didnt cost us $$'s so there is no collecting what they owe us , my point was , if Saddam would have been a threat , they would have allowed us to deploy from turkey giving s the Northern attack ..........

They didn't cost us anything. They refused to take action that would have afforded us a strategic advantage (and saved us money), but I wouldn't describe that as costing us something unless I thought they owed it to us in the first place.

Turkey didn't want the Iraqi Kurds to end up with their own state because that would put internal pressure on them to allow their own Kurdish population to join the Kurdish state. They also didn't want to deal with the internal political consequences they would face if they let us use Turkish bases to mount the attack. That doesn't mean that they didn't think Saddam was a threat. It just means that these other considerations outweighed any concerns they had regarding Saddam.

What ??? the worst thing sold to Saddam under the sanctions was F.O. ( fiber optics ) that was done by China , in fact some of the IUD we have found have been from old China motors ............

I linked to a source earlier in this thread that says the Iraqi's received night vision equipment and jamming equipment during the leadup to the war from some of our supposed allies.

And as far as I know, the Iraqi's were not illegally supplied with any type of birth control equipment... Chinese or otherwise. ;D

thats crap and you know it , Saudia Arabia has done more to support terrorism , then any other country , and yet we are not invading S.A. ....that argument wont hold water ........

We have a longstanding relationship with Saudi Arabia. Because of that, we are able to address the issues we have with them in a diplomatic way. Saddam wasn't open to the same kind of diplomacy. We use different tools on different kinds of problems just as the Broncos use different gameplans when they face different teams.