The Bush/Kerry debate

[watermock]

they bleached pumpkin head. This guy goes thru the Salon like a microwave.

[Rascal]

Kerry needs to keep off the tanning cream.

What's your opinion thus far?

[Mountainman]

I couldn't care less about the debate. It's nothing but lip service from both candidates.

[watermock]

Dumnbass, if you could care less why even post? Shut up. It's bad enough NPR is doing the interview, and you say you could care less?

Then don't post you idiot.

[Rascal]

It's the same old stuff over and over.

I've heard enough.

[broncogary]

Actually, I expected Kerry to do much better. I think he's totally blowing any chance he had right now.

[Mountainman]

Dumnbass, if you could care less why even post? Shut up. It's bad enough NPR is doing the interview, and you say you could care less?

Then don't post you idiot.

Hey douschebag. I'm free to post whatever I want wherever I want whether you f*cking like it or not.

[watermock]

You have full insane immunity Mountainman.

Don't expect us not to laugh.

Keep it up, it's better than Leno.

[Taco John]

Bush is getting killed... I'm suprised at how this has gone so far...

[watermock]

That's perception Taco. You will find general perception will be different

[Exile_In_SJ]

I don't see Bush Getting killed, I see passion in Bush and wonkism in Kerry. I'd rate it pretty even so far.

[-Slap-]

I'm glad the networks didn't bow to the candidates' handlers' wishes to restrict camera coverage. I like seeing the split screen because I like to see how each man reacts to the other's responses.

I'm very pleased to see Kerry coming out aggressively and staying on his gameplan.

[Taco John]

Bush found his ground... But already, the winner is Kerry. His campaign isn't over after tonight, which is what I had expected.

[Evenrude]

I don't think Bush is getting killed either..... He at least seems to be giving straight answers. Kerry is like a fart in a frying pan up there......

[Exile_In_SJ]

Kerry isn't the winner, Bush is scoring all over kerry. At best Kerry comes out in a draw.

[Taco John]

I correct myself... Bush WAS getting killed at the beginning of the debate... He found his ground...

[Exile_In_SJ]

Kerry stated a lie about Bush and NK nikes. The Nukes happened under Clinton

[broncogary]

I repeat what I thought earlier. Kerry is ruining his campaign right now.

Just think, if he thought it was close, he would be trying to neutralize issues. He is magnifying issues, and making a fool of himself at the same time.

And even though I'm an R, I thought Gore won most of the debates in 2000, except when he tried to get in Bush's face.

[watermock]

Kerry just told us there was a right way and a wrong way to dissarm Saddam Hussein.


God Bush is pissed off.

[Exile_In_SJ]

Kerry is asked about,plan specifics, and yet he never does say anything regarding a plan

[-Slap-]

This thread is full of shocking revelations. For example, the Bush supporters all believe their man is carrying the day. Any dissenting viewpoints will be dismissed as biased reporting by a liberal media.

[Antilles]

Bush is scoring points with the argument that the troops won't follow if the message is that this is the wrong war at the wrong time. Otherwise he appears woefully prepared. In terms of statemenship, Kerry is smoking him. Unfortuantely for Kerry there aren't enough undecided voters to make up the gap.

[WaffleBoy]

Kerry has been more "direct" and "polished" so far. Bush has been all over the place. Whether that translates into winning this debate tonight, I do not know, but to me, he is doing better than I expected.

The Boy Wonder ;)

[Exile_In_SJ]

Kerry says he can do better? but he never tells us how.

[broncogary]

In terms of statemenship, Kerry is smoking him.

And exactly what, in your opinion, is the definition of statesmanship?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Both are simply repeating the same talking points they've been repeating for awhile. The only revelations here will be for the .1% of voters who have been oblivious for the last 12 months to this election campaign, and are tuning in for the first time. Pretty worthless.

[Exile_In_SJ]

This thread is full of shocking revelations. For example, the Bush supporters all believe their man is carrying the day. Any dissenting viewpoints will be dismissed as biased reporting by a liberal media.



as opposed to the Kerry supporters?

[broncogary]

This thread is full of shocking revelations. For example, the Bush supporters all believe their man is carrying the day. Any dissenting viewpoints will be dismissed as biased reporting by a liberal media.

We aren't dismissing your viewpoint as biased reporting by a liberal media.

Like I said before, Kerry seems desperate.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

And exactly what, in your opinion, is the definition of statesmanship?

repeating over and over again that he'll hold a summit

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Kerry is far more articulate and his direct questioning of Bush's non-policy in Iraq has him super-pissed. Especially questioning his puppet in Iraq.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Kerry is far more articulate and his direct questioning of Bush's non-policy in Iraq has him super-pissed. Especially questioning his puppet in Iraq.

and Kerry can't give a real plan of what he'd do different in Iraq other then speaking in generalities, Bush's retort about Kerry wanting to work with someone that he had just criticized was a nice rebuttle

like i've said, nothing new tonight so far

[WaffleBoy]

Bush needs to clarify what Kerry is flip-flopping on. Just saying someone has changed their position repeatly doesn't mean jack. You got to be specific.

The Boy Wonder ;)

[broncogary]

Kerry is far more articulate and his direct questioning of Bush's non-policy in Iraq has him super-pissed. Especially questioning his puppet in Iraq.

Well, it's well known that the D's are hero worshippers, hence, Camelot.

But, I agree, Kerry is more articulate than Bush. So are most people I know. The funny thing is that when Bush was governor of Texas, he was fairly well spoken. I think he just got spooked by the liberal media looking over his shoulder at every syllable.

That said, I'm not voting based on debating skills; I'm voting based on core values.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

good point by Bush about pointing out "passing the global test" as part of Kerry's criteria for a pre-emptive war

[-Slap-]

That said, I'm not voting based on debating skills; I'm voting based on core values.
In other words, the Party line.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

In other words, the Party line.

so?

pot, kettle, black

[Taco John]

Personally, I expected that tonight would be the end of the race... I thought Kerry would come out and get killed. But after seeing this, I'll be suprised if Kerry doesn't start to close the gap.

[broncogary]

In other words, the Party line.

No, substance over style.

[WaffleBoy]

In other words, the Party line.

I see Slap is staying neutral. Ha!

The Boy Wonder ;)

[-Slap-]

No, substance over style.

Prince W is the substance?

[broncogary]

Prince W is the substance?

Si.

[watermock]

All Kerry does is cry to the UN

[WaffleBoy]

No, substance over style.

That would be Kerry at the moment. Bush is talking alot but not saying much.

The Boy Wonder ;)

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Prince W is the substance?

Prince W knows where he stands, Prince Wants-to-be-JFK needs to stick his finger up and see which way the wind is blowing first.

[broncogary]

That would be Kerry at the moment. Bush is talking alot but not saying much.

The Boy Wonder ;)

Apparently, it's a matter of opinion of substance.

[watermock]

Kerry is crying for the Sudan while Europe is totally sedate.

Now Kennedy is calling for the UN and two new divisions.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

That would be Kerry at the moment. Bush is talking alot but not saying much.

The Boy Wonder ;)

Kerry wants to hold a summit, and says he needs to change the dynamic on the ground. There's been no substance in what he's been saying.

[Exile_In_SJ]

lol Kerry blames Bush for unilateral sanctions on Iran, and Bush refutes him by telling him that the sanctions were in place long before Bush came to washington

[watermock]

Is this not a matter for the African Union?

Why is everything the United States responsibility?

[Evenrude]

This thread is full of shocking revelations. For example, the Bush supporters all believe their man is carrying the day. Any dissenting viewpoints will be dismissed as biased reporting by a liberal media.

I'm no Bush supporter.... I've been leaning towards voting Libertarian because I disagree with Bush on domestic issues.... but Kerry is all over the place, I don't know what we would get with that guy in office...

[-Slap-]

Prince W knows where he stands, Prince Wants-to-be-JFK needs to stick his finger up and see which way the wind is blowing first.

It must be easier to stick by bad decisions when your primary infuences are the Bible and special interest groups.

[Exile_In_SJ]

Kerry's been asked several times how he would do things, what's his plan? All we get from him is he'd do it better. Anyone can say that. I can say that. Herry beeds to get specific.

[broncogary]

Is this not a matter for the African Union?

Why is everything the United States responsibility?

If Kinky Friedman was President, he would leave the cat in charge.

[Hogan11]

Kerry is winning this thing....the real question is: will it matter?

A: No, it won't.

[broncogary]

It must be easier to stick by bad decisions when your primary infuences are the Bible and special interest groups.

No, it's easier to stick by bad decisions when you made them in good faith.

[Exile_In_SJ]

Kerry wants to add 2 divisions to the Army? How. Via draft? How?



He wants to bring more allies in. Who? How? how will he make/coerce/convince them to give more help? By insulting the allies we have now?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

It must be easier to stick by bad decisions when your primary infuences are the Bible and special interest groups.

Good thing that Kerry believes that life begins at conception, but knows who funds his campaign and is unwilling to stand up for his belief. Guess he makes his decisions based on special interest groups too.

[Hogan11]

If Kinky Friedman was President, he would leave the cat in charge.

Kinky Friedman? Ha! Another Azzhole From El Paso... :laugh:

[broncogary]

Kinky Friedman? Ha! Another Azzhole From El Paso... :laugh:

Si. Ha!

[-Slap-]

Good thing that Kerry believes that life begins at conception, but knows who funds his campaign and is unwilling to stand up for his belief. Guess he makes his decisions based on special interest groups too.

Rest easy. Bush will have back alley abortion clinics back in business at the first opportunity.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Kerry wants to add 2 divisions to the Army? How. Via draft? How?


I've already asked that, never got a response. But Bush will bring back the draft if he's elected.

[Antilles]

Kerry wants to hold a summit, and says he needs to change the dynamic on the ground. There's been no substance in what he's been saying.


These debates aren't about substance. Its hard to say anything of consequence in 2 minute intervals. You yourself described them as "pretty worthless." The debates are a show for those who are easily distracted. Who appears more Presidential - that's the only thing up for grabs tonight.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Rest easy. Bush will have back alley abortion clinics back in business at the first opportunity.

wow I read my post a couple times, and don't see where i said i wanted that. but maybe you can tell me how kerry isn't being run by Dem special interest groups in my example?

[RunByDesign]

WTF does Bush have...a cheat card? WTH does he keep looking at?

[broncogary]

These debates aren't about substance. Its hard to say anything of consequence in 2 minute intervals. You yourself described them as "pretty worthless." The debates are a show for those who are easily distracted. Who appears more Presidential - that's the only thing up for grabs tonight.

That's my earlier point. Almost everyone is more Presidential than Bush. Yet he says what he will do, and does it. Somehow, that message gets through.

[Rock Chalk]

Kerry and Bush are both taking notes. Probably looking over his notes.

[Antilles]

No, it's easier to stick by bad decisions when you made them in good faith.

wow... and here I'd expect our leaders to admit to their mistakes and try to remedy them rather than stick by them. Silly me.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

These debates aren't about substance. Its hard to say anything of consequence in 2 minute intervals. You yourself described them as "pretty worthless." The debates are a show for those who are easily distracted. Who appears more Presidential - that's the only thing up for grabs tonight.


That's true, but with Kerry running behind in all polls (even those by Dem polling firms like Democracy Corps K-3) he needs to give reasons why people should vote for him. Saying that Bush made mistakes and then only saying you want to hold a summit and change the dynamic on the ground without giving reasons why, isn't going to cut it.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

WTF does Bush have...a cheat card? WTH does he keep looking at?

probably the notes both take when the other is speaking

[broncogary]

wow... and here I'd expect our leaders to admit to their mistakes and try to remedy them rather than stick by them. Silly me.

Sometimes the remedy isn't an absolute reversal. Maybe it wasn't a 100% mistake.

[broncogary]

These debates aren't about substance. Its hard to say anything of consequence in 2 minute intervals. You yourself described them as "pretty worthless." The debates are a show for those who are easily distracted. Who appears more Presidential - that's the only thing up for grabs tonight.

That's all to Kerry's advantage that they aren't about substance. And, yet, substance is what a lot of people vote for.

[watermock]

Like front alley clinics are a good thing.

The real issue is to not have abortion altogether, but that is beyond you.

Kerry is using Mission Acomplished on N. Korea.

[Exile_In_SJ]

He needed to do more than say he would do better. Anyone can say that.

[Antilles]

That's true, but with Kerry running behind in all polls (even those by Dem polling firms like Democracy Corps K-3) he needs to give reasons why people should vote for him. Saying that Bush made mistakes and then only saying you want to hold a summit and change the dynamic on the ground without giving reasons why, isn't going to cut it.

I agree, but I simply don't think that the kind of heavy lifting that Kerry needs to do is possible in the debate format. Personally, given that there are so few undecided voters, I don't think there is any way Kerry pulls this one out. Still, I appreciate how much more prepared he his. I guess he has no choice.

[RunByDesign]

probably the notes both take when the other is speaking

ya...irrelevant, anyways. I was just concerned why he was acting like he was reading a pre-written speech or something.

[-Slap-]

Sometimes the remedy isn't an absolute reversal. Maybe it wasn't a 100% mistake.

It wasn't a 100% mistake for the people getting rich off this conflict. That's why we're going to keep splashing around in that bloodbath for as long as Bush is in charge.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I'm sure they had talking points on those notes

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I wonder who called the coin-toss, how long it took to negotiate that, and how many people were present to the toss to make sure it went according to the negotiated "rules"?

[broncogary]

It wasn't a 100% mistake for the people getting rich off this conflict. That's why we're going to keep splashing around in that bloodbath for as long as Bush is in charge.

Well, I expect that it wasn't the last mistake he will make as President for the next for years.

[-Slap-]

Like front alley clinics are a good thing.

The real issue is to not have abortion altogether, but that is beyond you.


Spoken like the deadbeat dad you admitted yourself to be.

[watermock]

hmm

[broncohaven]

What is "trans-shipment"?

[RunByDesign]

I was thoroughly unimpressed with both.

Someone needed to be exposed. It didn't happen.

I don't think acting chummy with Bush is doing Kerry any service. He should be slamming him on his own gaffes: (flip flop, scare you into voting for me) and he did not make him pay for it.

Several times Bush used the flip flopper card and Kerry only rebutted him once. He could have clearly played the : "we will win the WOT, we can't win the WOT" card but did not.

He needed to expose Bush for the flip flopping liar that he is, but did not.

I guess he has two more chances...but I don't think he did much to advance himself in the game.

[Taco John]

Bush started out slow... FInihed strong... Kerry started strong... Tripped over himself on his comments about holding a summit. But still maintained his ground after Bush drove that one out of the park...

I'd say that Kerry slightly won based on Bush's poor start, and that's when most American's were watching...

Overall, I thought the campaign was going to be over after tonight. I thought Kerry would come out and botch it. The fact that he didn't gives Kerry the edge, IMO.

[watermock]

I think Dubya got in the last punch.

[Hogan11]

Kerry clearly won this thing IMO....but I still don't think it'll make any difference....partisanship is just too deep right now and the GOP has the upper hand at the moment.

That sucks, but it's the truth.

[RunByDesign]

I think Dubya got in the last punch.
Well, of course you would. :laugh:

[broncogary]

I'm biased, so it's hard for me to tell who won.

[RunByDesign]

I'm biased, so it's hard for me to tell who won.

Nobody did, which means Bush did.

[shakenbake]

I think my guy did good and your guy did bad.

[broncogary]

I think my guy did good and your guy did bad.

I must agree. :laugh:

[Taco John]

Boy, it's like watching a funeral on Fox right now...

[watermock]

Bush wanted to go over and clock Kerry!

[shakenbake]

Boy, it's like watching a funeral on Fox right now...

I was thinking the same thing......why so grim ?

[broncogary]

Boy, it's like watching a funeral on Fox right now...

So you're saying that they are not coloring the debate in Bush's favor?

Blue and LABF will be mad about this. :giggle:

[Maximus]

This whole thread is useless because nobody has an open mind about who actually won the debate... IMO Kerry Mauled Bush in the second half of the debate.

[Hogan11]

I'm just glad there's a new Orbit gum commercial out now....I just love that girl......"Fabulous"

[shakenbake]

This whole thread is useless because nobody has an open mind about who actually won the debate... IMO Kerry Mauled Bush in the second half of the debate.

ofcourse you do !

[broncogary]

This whole thread is useless because nobody has an open mind about who actually won the debate... IMO Kerry Mauled Bush in the second half of the debate.

We didn't know that fader fans (convicted felons) had the right to vote. ;D

[Taco John]

So you're saying that they are not coloring the debate in Bush's favor?

Blue and LABF will be mad about this. :giggle:



THey're doing their best too... But they are clearly despondent...

[Antilles]

Sometimes the remedy isn't an absolute reversal. Maybe it wasn't a 100% mistake.

Who said reverse? I assume we are talking about Iraq? Here's my take. It was in no way 100% a mistake. The US is better off without Saddam. That much is obvious. Just as, if my car needed new brakes, and the mechanic replaced the brakes, my car would be safer. But if the mechanic also loosened my steering wheel, slashed my tires, and peed in my gas tank, on the whole my car would be less safe. IMO, Bush has peed in America’s gas tank.

Even though I am not a big fan of the UN, I believe it can be a useful tool in crafting global opinion. My biggest problem with Bush diplomacy it its lack of nuisance – I find it very hard to believe that given 6 – 9 more months Powell couldn’t have sold this war to the UN. With UN sanction we now have global approval, and more importantly, global financial (and to a lesser degree, military) support. However, I also believe that Bush wholeheartedly, but wrongly, believed faulty intelligence and perceived a great urgency. Ok. But we now realized that is not the case. My issue is that I have not seen any action on behalf of the administration to repair the damage done to our global standing. Now, I agree with Bush that we cannot come out and say this is the wrong war because that would result in disaster on the ground. But why not surrender partial control on the ground to UN forces? Why not allow foreign companies to participate in the reconstruction? Isn’t it more valuable to repair our alliances than it is to give plum construction jobs to our favorite companies?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

THey're doing their best too... But they are clearly despondent...

you're so full of it TJ. Just listening from the other room without seeing a picture, I can tell there's at least one lib on panel (whoever the woman is), Kondracke's a moderate Dem and Kristol is a conservative. Can't tell if anyone else is there besides Hume though. Weird that they're discussing the debate in an objective manner.

[broncogary]

Who said reverse? I assume we are talking about Iraq? Here's my take. It was in no way 100% a mistake. The US is better off without Saddam. That much is obvious. Just as, if my car needed new brakes, and the mechanic replaced the brakes, my car would be safer. But if the mechanic also loosened my steering wheel, slashed my tires, and peed in my gas tank, on the whole my car would be less safe. IMO, Bush has peed in America’s gas tank.

Even though I am not a big fan of the UN, I believe it can be a useful tool in crafting global opinion. My biggest problem with Bush diplomacy it its lack of nuisance – I find it very hard to believe that given 6 – 9 more months Powell couldn’t have sold this war to the UN. With UN sanction we now have global approval, and more importantly, global financial (and to a lesser degree, military) support. However, I also believe that Bush wholeheartedly, but wrongly, believed faulty intelligence and perceived a great urgency. Ok. But we now realized that is not the case. My issue is that I have not seen any action on behalf of the administration to repair the damage done to our global standing. Now, I agree with Bush that we cannot come out and say this is the wrong war because that would result in disaster on the ground. But why not surrender partial control on the ground to UN forces? Why not allow foreign companies to participate in the reconstruction? Isn’t it more valuable to repair our alliances than it is to give plum construction jobs to our favorite companies?

You obviously are in favor of a centralized global government.

[RunByDesign]

This whole thread is useless because nobody has an open mind about who actually won the debate... IMO Kerry Mauled Bush in the second half of the debate.
Sure I do.

Kerry did well, but I think that he needs to effectively slam Bush (which he may be progessing towards in debates 2 and 3) and emphatically show that Bushs' ineptitude and pathological lying are plain to see.

He needs to say "this guy is a f*ing liar and he is a jackass" without actually saying that.

[watermock]

I think they basically spat on each other.

Kerry got some good jabs in late, but Bush held the Belt at the end. How in the hell do I know.

Early pundits say a Kerry win.

[BroncoInferno]

So far the press (including conservatives like Joe Scarborough) are scoring this a clear Kerry win. It was hard for me to tell, as I'm certainly not unbiased. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the press (including the conservative press--Fox--ahem).

I kind of saw the opposite of what you saw TJ. I saw it even to start and then Kerry really take command at the end. He was better informed on issues, he was timely. Bush kept repeating the same mantra over and over: trust me, I know how this world works. He stumbled over his words; there were long awkward pauses; his time would expire without a conclusion. I just thought Kerry really closed it strong. Again, I'm biased, but that seems to be the general impression watching these "post-game" shows, including Fox.

[watermock]

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

George Dole did not lose the Debate. You can all go home now.

[broncogary]

So far the press (including conservatives like Joe Scarborough) are scoring this a clear Kerry win.

Somehow, I seem to consistently forget to let the press to tell me how to think. I don't know why.

[Antilles]

You obviously are in favor of a centralized global government.

Actually no. I am a huge fan of national sovereignty and unabashedly in favor of whatever benefits the US. Personally, I’d like to use the UN primarily as a rubber stamp for US action and help foot the bill when we make a mess. Of course, when 187 or so nations are opposed to the action we are intending, I’m willing to step back for a second and consider the possibility that what we want to do is wrong. Other than the French, there are some pretty smart, savvy people in other nations – their opinions are at least worth listening to before dismissing.

[BroncoInferno]

Somehow, I seem to consistently forget to let the press to tell me how to think. I don't know why.

That wasn't my point. Obviously, you and I are biased, we're going to score it for our guy. A lot of people will score this based on the press, particularly those who missed the debates. I don't like it, but that's simply the way it tends to go. People who didn't watch the debates in '00 tended to go for Bush because the press kept showing the images of Gore sighing and walking right up in Bush's face. It'll be interesting to see the images that emerge from this debate, and who they'll favor.

[Exile_In_SJ]

You obviously are in favor of a centralized global government.

Actually no. I am a huge fan of national sovereignty and unabashedly in favor of whatever benefits the US. Personally, I’d like to use the UN primarily as a rubber stamp for US action and help foot the bill when we make a mess. Of course, when 187 or so nations are opposed to the action we are intending, I’m willing to step back for a second and consider the possibility that what we want to do is wrong. Other than the French, there are some pretty smart, savvy people in other nations – their opinions are at least worth listening to before dismissing.


I would look at which 187 nations are disagreeing. Numbers mean little if they are mostly non free nations.

[broncogary]

Actually no. I am a huge fan of national sovereignty and unabashedly in favor of whatever benefits the US. Personally, I’d like to use the UN primarily as a rubber stamp for US action and help foot the bill when we make a mess. Of course, when 187 or so nations are opposed to the action we are intending, I’m willing to step back for a second and consider the possibility that what we want to do is wrong. Other than the French, there are some pretty smart, savvy people in other nations – their opinions are at least worth listening to before dismissing.

I'm pretty sure we listened to other UN'er's other than the French before forming a separate coalition. Actually, there are some pretty smart, savvy people in this country, too.

[watermock]

and live in Kaptain Kangaroo Land.

[Exile_In_SJ]

I don't see this changing the Dynamic much if at all. Some here say Kerry won, some here say Bush won. What Kerry needed was a knockout and he clearly didn't get one.
The polls may change slightly, but I doubt anyone came away from here feeling much different than before.

[OrangeDoofus]

I would look at which 187 nations are disagreeing. Numbers mean little if they are mostly non free nations.

There are only 191 nations in the UN. Easier to just look and see which three are agreeing with us.

[broncogary]

[QUOTE=BroncoInferno]That wasn't my point. Obviously, you and I are biased, we're going to score it for our guy. A lot of people will score this based on the press, particularly those who missed the debates. /QUOTE]


And we know the libs control the press. Personally, I'm not voting on debating skills, I'm voting on so-called core values, which means that I think that regardless of how Bush does in a debate, he will consistently support the base Republican platform, which more nearly mirrors my political beliefs than the Dem's platform.

[Maximus]

Sure I do.

Kerry did well, but I think that he needs to effectively slam Bush (which he may be progessing towards in debates 2 and 3) and emphatically show that Bushs' ineptitude and pathological lying are plain to see.

He needs to say "this guy is a f*ing liar and he is a jackass" without actually saying that.

He came close to doing just that but said I won't use that term or something close to that.

[Exile_In_SJ]

damn Air Force lost to the squids.

[RunByDesign]

I don't see this changing the Dynamic much if at all. Some here say Kerry won, some here say Bush won. What Kerry needed was a knockout and he clearly didn't get one.
The polls may change slightly, but I doubt anyone came away from here feeling much different than before.

Amazingly, I am of the same sentiment.

[BroncoInferno]

[QUOTE=BroncoInferno]That wasn't my point. Obviously, you and I are biased, we're going to score it for our guy. A lot of people will score this based on the press, particularly those who missed the debates. /QUOTE]


And we know the libs control the press. Personally, I'm not voting on debating skills, I'm voting on so-called core values, which means that I think that regardless of how Bush does in a debate, he will consistently support the base Republican platform, which more nearly mirrors my political beliefs than the Dem's platform.

Well, the so-called "liberal media bias" didn't help Gore much last time after the debates. The press showed over and over the clips of Gore sighing and walking maniacly into Bush's space, and that really hurt Gore. I know you're still voting for your guy, just as I am. What will be intersting is the reaction from the undecideds.

[baja]

After reading all 5 pages of this thread it's clear people are so polarized that they see this single event very differently.

On my part I thought Kerry was the clear winner in the undecided voters eyes.

I thought Bush was clearly out classed, he was repetitive and lacked any substance of though. He did show passion and comment but as Kerry so pointedly observed one can have passion and commitment and yet be incompetent

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Even while pointing out Gore's actions, they still continued to say that he won the debates.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

On my part I thought Kerry was the clear winner in the undecided voters eyes.


Weird you say that everyone here is polarized, then as an ABB voter you believe you're objective enough to give the opinion on what Undecided voters will think.

[baja]

Weird you say that everyone here is polarized, then as an ABB voter you believe you're objective enough to give the opinion on what Undecided voters will think.

That is my opinion are opinions not allowed - I'll bet you have one

[baja]

I thought Kerry logically, strongly and in a clear manner made his points. I thought he was great and I have not been a strong supporter for Kerry.

[twotimes3233]

We can elect someone who can actually speak ENGLISH and actually complete a FREAKIN' sentence and not SLOUCH over the freakin' podium like he's leanin' on a GODDAMN bar and not drinking water like he's doing SHOTS of Cuervo WHICH he was doing when he was SUPPOSED to be serving in the Alabama ANG which he got into only because his DADDY helped him jump in front of ten thousand other young AMERICANS so he could avoid service overseas which is the BOX HE CHECKED on his application so he wouldn't see any COMBAT exactly like that pork chop sucking WAR CRIMINAL REAL goddamn President...DICK "I only got FIVE deferments" CHENEY at least I can go on the INTERNET which ASHCROFT want's unlimited montioring of and find a picture of KERRY shouldering a GODDAMN M-16 in fatigues with a BURNING villiage in the background and I don't recall SEEING a picture of BUSH in combat!!!!

BUSH MELTED DOWN ON NATIONAL TV TONIGHT.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if ROVE cancels the next two debates or if SOMETHING REALLY BIG, REALLY BIG HAPPENS!!!!

[RunByDesign]

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

George Dole did not lose the Debate. You can all go home now.

First rep for mock. This is absolutely f*ing hilarious.

[Rascal]

uh...did anybody notice that Bush said there wasn't going to be a draft or it did that just fly by everybody?

That is huge IMO.

I think Kerry won the debate, as I expected, but not nearly as much as I had expected. Kerry is a good debater, no doubt about that, but he failed to be specific about how he would be better then Bush. That hurt him, besides the flip flop about Iraq.

Bush failed to speak coherently and fumbled the ball several times but had some good points about the nukes.

I give Kerry a B-, Bush a C+. Not really impressed with anything they said except when Bush said he would have only a volunteer army. Both had a couple of jabs thrown in but nothing even close to being considered a knockout punch. It was nice for them to not stoop to our level of insulting one another and even complimented each other which was nice to see even if it was fake. This won't change the polls more then a percentage point, which means nothing anyway.

[TheNextStep]

Personally, I thought that Kerry won the debate by a large margin. However, somebody else opined that Kerry was in a position where he had to take the offensive, leaving Bush the freedom to play this one conservative to draw Kerry out.

Thing is, I don't think "town hall" style debates play to Bush's strengths...

At any rate, I really thought that Kerry came out of this one looking good.

[RunByDesign]

So hey Alec....when you negative rep me again, (like you just did,) might you add some text, indicating a reason next time? ::)

[alkemical]

I know who lost this debate...

Us...

(sorry had to be the first to say it!)

(besides would you expect anything LESS from me :) )

[Cito Pelon]

We can elect someone who can actually speak ENGLISH and actually complete a FREAKIN' sentence and not SLOUCH over the freakin' podium like he's leanin' on a GODDAMN bar and not drinking water like he's doing SHOTS of Cuervo WHICH he was doing when he was SUPPOSED to be serving in the Alabama ANG which he got into only because his DADDY helped him jump in front of ten thousand other young AMERICANS so he could avoid service overseas which is the BOX HE CHECKED on his application so he wouldn't see any COMBAT exactly like that pork chop sucking WAR CRIMINAL REAL goddamn President...DICK "I only got FIVE deferments" CHENEY at least I can go on the INTERNET which ASHCROFT want's unlimited montioring of and find a picture of KERRY shouldering a GODDAMN M-16 in fatigues with a BURNING villiage in the background and I don't recall SEEING a picture of BUSH in combat!!!!

BUSH MELTED DOWN ON NATIONAL TV TONIGHT.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if ROVE cancels the next two debates or if SOMETHING REALLY BIG, REALLY BIG HAPPENS!!!!

Ouch. And, yeah, I'm watching to see if GWB tries to cancel the election. I think a lot of people are.

[Cito Pelon]

Who said reverse? I assume we are talking about Iraq? Here's my take. It was in no way 100% a mistake. The US is better off without Saddam. That much is obvious. Just as, if my car needed new brakes, and the mechanic replaced the brakes, my car would be safer. But if the mechanic also loosened my steering wheel, slashed my tires, and peed in my gas tank, on the whole my car would be less safe. IMO, Bush has peed in America’s gas tank.

Even though I am not a big fan of the UN, I believe it can be a useful tool in crafting global opinion. My biggest problem with Bush diplomacy it its lack of nuisance – I find it very hard to believe that given 6 – 9 more months Powell couldn’t have sold this war to the UN. With UN sanction we now have global approval, and more importantly, global financial (and to a lesser degree, military) support. However, I also believe that Bush wholeheartedly, but wrongly, believed faulty intelligence and perceived a great urgency. Ok. But we now realized that is not the case. My issue is that I have not seen any action on behalf of the administration to repair the damage done to our global standing. Now, I agree with Bush that we cannot come out and say this is the wrong war because that would result in disaster on the ground. But why not surrender partial control on the ground to UN forces? Why not allow foreign companies to participate in the reconstruction? Isn’t it more valuable to repair our alliances than it is to give plum construction jobs to our favorite companies?

Kerry made that point pretty well tonight. GWB had no answer. One of the telling points was Lehrer asked him if the point he had been hammering on - pre-emptive strikes - applied anywhere, anytime, and GWB lost completely what little control of the debate he had up til then.

[Cito Pelon]

I know who lost this debate...

Us...

(sorry had to be the first to say it!)

(besides would you expect anything LESS from me :) )

It was a good debate. More give and take than I expected. I look forward to seeing more. I'll give credit to GWB for really shaking things up, popping bubbles of complacency, and forcing action where inaction was before. He built some momentum, that's for sure, and I like that. But in his momentum-building enterprises, he's unfortunately painted us into a corner at the same time.

We have to get out of that corner. This isn't America's world to do with what we want to. It won't happen. We can take a leadership position in leading the world to freedom and democracy, that's doable, but to expect that to happen without Germany and France, well, that's doubtful. Germany and France know that, and of course they will never cooperate with GWB. They want a voice in world power, and they're no idiots, you know. This isn't the United States of the World. We're only one continent, and not a United continent at that.

[watermock]

Here is what is so amusing.

The Kerry camp is do desperate to have a bump they are all jumping up and down after a difficult stand on the debates.

I would have a hard time not being irritated. Bush looked like he wanted to go at him and rip his tits off. All the questions were antagonistic.

I'm still trying to figure out what Kerry stands for.

No this no that! He was like Mr. KnowNothing. Bush came off as Dr. Evil.

Beezblub is undecided.

[Denver Crush]

In my opinion Bush reaffirmed his status as a blabbering idiot that cant put a full sentence together. This guy is supposed to be the spokesman for America and he cant even pretend to be smart. He is a poster boy for why we need to invest more in education than warmongering. Kerry, I thought, was solid and sounded far more educated. I dont know about the rest of you folks, but I would rather have someone who can actually express themselves calling the shots for me.

[watermock]

In my opinion Bush reaffirmed his status as a blabbering idiot that cant put a full sentence together. This guy is supposed to be the spokesman for America and he cant even pretend to be smart. He is a poster boy for why we need to invest more in education than warmongering. Kerry, I thought, was solid and sounded far more educated. I dont know about the rest of you folks, but I would rather have someone who can actually express themselves calling the shots for me.


That is your opinion. Blathering idiot that can't put a sentence together pretty much formulates what your going to continue with. How amusing.

As far as pretending to be smart? I guess Kerry was smart because he managed wipe off his OrangMane tan.

Actually, Bush has spent alot on education. In fact, money is still sitting in the bank.

[Denver Crush]

Really the only point Im trying to make is how can we expect Bush to be our spokesman to the world when he cant even articulate and carry on a coherent debate? He would have been better off recording all of his responses ahead of time and just play the tape back to us. Kerry has a firm grasp on what it means to be intellectual. I feel just feel embarrassed every time I see or hear Bush say anything.

[watermock]

Kerry has a firm grasp on what it means to be intellectual.

Wouldn't that be "an intellectual"?

I mean, if your going to "Articulate" you would expect someone to be able to together a sentence.

Really the only point Im trying to make is how can we expect Bush to be our spokesman to the world

Explain to me when the President of "Spokesman for the World"

We have a spokesman called Secretary of State you Dimwit. The President is not expected to be a spokeman except for extraordinary circumstance.

[BroncoInferno]

Who said reverse? I assume we are talking about Iraq? Here's my take. It was in no way 100% a mistake. The US is better off without Saddam. That much is obvious. Just as, if my car needed new brakes, and the mechanic replaced the brakes, my car would be safer. But if the mechanic also loosened my steering wheel, slashed my tires, and peed in my gas tank, on the whole my car would be less safe. IMO, Bush has peed in America’s gas tank.

LOL

I haven't heard it put any better. "Bush has peed in America's gas tank." Ha!

[Denver Crush]

Mock your a punk! All you can do is start calling people names when they disagree. Im trying to have a good natured discussion and you lay that on. **** You!

[Rohirrim]

I think Bush looked worn out. All he could keep repeating was, "Hard work, hard work, hard work." Kerry should give the poor guy a break.

[OrangeDoofus]

Wouldn't that be "an intellectual"?

No, the way he said it is perfectly fine. "Intellectual" can be an adjective, so someone can "be intellectual."

I mean, if your going to "Articulate" you would expect someone to be able to together a sentence.

Oh, well since it's grammar-nazi time...

"Able to together a sentence"? What the hell does it mean to "together a sentence"? Also, that should be "...if you're going to...". You know, the contraction for "you are"?

[baja]

Wouldn't that be "an intellectual"?

I mean, if your going to "Articulate" you would expect someone to be able to together a sentence.



Explain to me when the President of "Spokesman for the World"

We have a spokesman called Secretary of State you Dimwit. The President is not expected to be a spokesman except for extraordinary circumstance.

This from a poster who insists on using the word "noone"

Guess some are so brilliant they are above good grammar while they feel the need to take other lesser beings to task for the same infractions.

[baja]

LOL

I haven't heard it put any better. "Bush has peed in America's gas tank." Ha!

Ditto!

I got to go back and rep that guy.

[Darkdoc]

C'mon you guys, you're being played by the politicians for dupes. Open your eyes.

The debate was for show only, it means nothing.

More than anything, they remind me of professional wrestling. How can ANYONE win??

Most people look at countries with many political parties, and think
that it is chaotic. In reality, though, they actually do have a choice.
Much more of a choice than we have in the US, where we are served up two
candidates that guarantee you one thing...no matter who you vote for,
you will get either a Republican or a Democrat.

That means that you will be assured of getting someone that is very
unlikely to change much of anything of importance. Nothing really
changes - can you think of anything of real importance that has changed
with the election of one specific candidate? The business of government
is the biggest and baddest and most valuable business as exists in this
country, hence they take no chances in appointing the CEO every 4 years.
There is too much riding on it to let the electorate actually have a
choice.

By the time the candidates are chosen, the selection process has been
guaranteed - the votes are counted only to provide some aura of
respectability to the process - to make you think that you have been
allowed to participate, have some say in the process. But again, once
the candidates are chosen, the selection makes sure that however the
vote goes, the powers behind the office get the man who will give them
what they want - a willing Congress, a cooperative Federal reserve, a
well controlled judiciary writing laws from the bench, a military used
to achieve imperial purposes.

You can be sure of one thing - politicians will remain the deadliest
lifeforms on earth, ever willing to sacrifice your sons and daughters to
achieve their political goals. For that reason, although politics is
meaningless, it is never insignificant or a joke.

[Rigs11]

Wouldn't that be "an intellectual"?

I mean, if your going to "Articulate" you would expect someone to be able to together a sentence.



Explain to me when the President of "Spokesman for the World"

We have a spokesman called Secretary of State you Dimwit. The President is not expected to be a spokeman except for extraordinary circumstance.

Hey dimwit if you had paid attention to the debate you would have noted that Bush kept saying over and over phrases such as "to lead the world" "the world is safer", "I know the world". In his feeble little mind he thinks he is the Spokesman of the world. Good point on the secretary of state, he says that Iraq is getting worse and yet Dumbya continues to live in denial. Who is sending mixed messages again?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

We can elect someone who can actually speak ENGLISH and actually complete a FREAKIN' sentence and not SLOUCH over the freakin' podium like he's leanin' on a GODDAMN bar and not drinking water like he's doing SHOTS of Cuervo WHICH he was doing when he was SUPPOSED to be serving in the Alabama ANG which he got into only because his DADDY helped him jump in front of ten thousand other young AMERICANS so he could avoid service overseas which is the BOX HE CHECKED on his application so he wouldn't see any COMBAT exactly like that pork chop sucking WAR CRIMINAL REAL goddamn President...DICK "I only got FIVE deferments" CHENEY at least I can go on the INTERNET which ASHCROFT want's unlimited montioring of and find a picture of KERRY shouldering a GODDAMN M-16 in fatigues with a BURNING villiage in the background and I don't recall SEEING a picture of BUSH in combat!!!!

BUSH MELTED DOWN ON NATIONAL TV TONIGHT.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if ROVE cancels the next two debates or if SOMETHING REALLY BIG, REALLY BIG HAPPENS!!!!

says the guys whose entire post is one incomprehensible run on sentence