Another Kerry Screw Up...soon to be another flip flop

[Rascal]

At first I thought this article was pretty silly but then I got towards the bottom and noticed Kerry's comments regarding Admiral Jeremy Boorda and his suicide in 1996.

Apparently Kerry has been wrongly wearing the medals. Kerry is quoted as saying, "is it wrong? Yes, it is wrong. Sufficient to question his leadership position? The answer is yes"

Hmm...Kerry has been wearing the wrong medals, so I guess that means his leadership is questioned also.

Lets see the back peddle and spin from this.

One thing though, I am not attacking Kerry's service. He should be honored for his service, but his actions afterwards should not be. Sure there are questions about what happened while he was in service, but I am going to let that slide because their is a fog of war.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131319,00.html

[Spider]

Funny you mention flip flops ...... Hilarious!

[Rascal]

"Class, is that a spin or a back peddle?"

"It's a back peddle"

"Correct!"

[OrangeDoofus]

So apparently someone gave him a redundant "V" on his Silver Star. Is that really all it is or am I missing something?

[Taco John]

This doesn't mean anything until the Navy makes their conclusion...

[patteeu]

So apparently someone gave him a redundant "V" on his Silver Star. Is that really all it is or am I missing something?

http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/09/02&ID=Ar01702

Nothing is proven yet, but here are a couple of other questionable details related to the decorations Kerry claims to have earned:

The Navy also questioned the listing on Mr. Kerry’s Web site of a DD215 form listing four bronze campaign stars for his service in Vietnam. According to its records, the Navy credits Mr. Kerry with two campaigns.That is sufficient for the wearing of the Vietnam Service Medal for one campaign bearing one campaign star for the additional campaign — not four.

Perhaps most puzzling of all is Mr. Kerry’s display of a citation for his Star signed in 1986 by the Secretary of the Navy, John Lehman. Mr. Lehman, who recently completed his service on the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, finds this “[a] total mystery. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me.”

No one knows who provided the additional flowery language concluding, “Lieutenant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself.…” Well, someone certainly did.

I think there is a decent chance that these things can be explained away but I doubt that there will be a resolution by November. These are legitimate questions though (as opposed to some kind of smear job).

On a related note, I saw General Tommy Franks (retired) on PBS last night after his convention speech and he was asked about the controversy surrounding Kerry's Vietnam record and his post-Vietnam protests. Franks was careful to avoid getting into the debate about Kerry's time as a swift boat sailor and would only say that he respected anyone who went to Vietnam (including swift boat vets on both sides of this issue). He was very clear that he didn't have much respect for what Kerry did after he returned home though. He also told a story that relates to this thread to some degree.

When he came back from Vietnam, he was pinning medals onto his uniform one day as he prepared it to be worn and his dad said something like "You sure have a lot of medals." Franks replied, in a self-deprecating way that "they give them out like prizes in a crackerjack box" (paraphrasing). The reason he told the story was to draw a contrast between the way he thought vets should act about their medals and the way Kerry has been acting like a flava clown about his. It was subtle, but it was cutting at the same time.

[Taco John]

When he came back from Vietnam, he was pinning medals onto his uniform one day as he prepared it to be worn and his dad said something like "You sure have a lot of medals." Franks replied, in a self-deprecating way that "they give them out like prizes in a crackerjack box" (paraphrasing). The reason he told the story was to draw a contrast between the way he thought vets should act about their medals and the way Kerry has been acting like a flava clown about his. It was subtle, but it was cutting at the same time.



I respect Franks, but I don't find too much value in his story. There's a pretty big difference between a throw-away comment you make to your father, and presenting your best image in a presidential election. Being proud of your combat medals is hardly "flava clown." That'd be like me going for a job inteterview and downplaying my university degree because a lot of other people got them too.

[Rock Chalk]

Actually TJ, from what I have heard of soliders who served (in any war) and received medals, they all almost always say the same thing: "Other guys I fought besides deserved the medals more than I did" or something along those lines. I have yet to meet a vet who thought he deserved the medals he had. I dont think they really hold much value except to politicians using them as leverage. If you think about it, a lot of medals awarded are the result of a solider probably losing a friend or two. Not something you really want to commemorate if you ask me.

[freak6]

I correct marines all the time about thier ribbons, because they are so confusing as to which you where and bla bla blaaa.

Tell us about why BUSH did nothing AFTER we were attacked!!!!

USS COLE errrrr

The "commander in chief" sat back and did nothing then, and continued to do nothing despite intense warnings over and over and over again.

AUGUST 6th PDB.

[patteeu]

I correct marines all the time about thier ribbons, because they are so confusing as to which you where and bla bla blaaa.

Tell us about why BUSH did nothing AFTER we were attacked!!!!

USS COLE errrrr

The "commander in chief" sat back and did nothing then, and continued to do nothing despite intense warnings over and over and over again.

AUGUST 6th PDB.

Did you sleep through the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, and the global war against terrorism? Oh, and BTW, the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing (the one that occurred during the Clinton administration) is now in custody.

[Rascal]

I don't really care if it was wrong or not, the only thing I find hillarious and pathetic at the same time is that he criticized an admiral who killed himself, because his medals were wrong basically, by questioning his leadership.

[Blueflame]

Fix News and NewsMax are trying to make something out of nothing.

Pictures of Kerry taken as he gave testimony in front of the Senate show that he was wearing his medals correctly... the Silver Star (with no "V") and two Vietnam campaign stars.

This is much ado about nothing.

There is, however, a picture of Bush (in his father's presidential library) wearing a ribbon he didn't earn.

[Rascal]

Fix News and NewsMax are trying to make something out of nothing.

Pictures of Kerry taken as he gave testimony in front of the Senate show that he was wearing his medals correctly... the Silver Star (with no "V") and two Vietnam campaign stars.

This is much ado about nothing.

There is, however, a picture of Bush (in his father's presidential library) wearing a ribbon he didn't earn.

Let's wait and see what Judical Watch has to say.

And I've never heard of this "ribbon".

And besides, it's not Bush who criticized a deceased admiral for wearing his incorrectly and questioning his leadership.

[patteeu]

Fix News and NewsMax are trying to make something out of nothing.

Pictures of Kerry taken as he gave testimony in front of the Senate show that he was wearing his medals correctly... the Silver Star (with no "V") and two Vietnam campaign stars.

This is much ado about nothing.

There is, however, a picture of Bush (in his father's presidential library) wearing a ribbon he didn't earn.

I would bet that Admiral Boorda wore his correctly before he wore them incorrectly too.

[Blueflame]

I would bet that Admiral Boorda wore his correctly before he wore them incorrectly too.

This is going to end up as nothing more than a furor over a clerical error.

[patteeu]

This is going to end up as nothing more than a furor over a clerical error.

You might be right. I was just pointing out that what Kerry wore 30 years ago during his Senate testimony has no bearing on this issue.

[Blueflame]

I'm betting some would make a big deal out of it if the pictures showed him wearing the medals incorrectly 30 years ago, though...

[RaiderH8r]

You might be right. I was just pointing out that what Kerry wore 30 years ago during his Senate testimony has no bearing on this issue.
How he wore his medals at his testimony doesn't concern me nearly as much as the things he said at the testimony. The medal thing really carries no weight with me.

[patteeu]

I'm betting some would make a big deal out of it if the pictures showed him wearing the medals incorrectly 30 years ago, though...

Of course they (I) would. If he has exhibited less than honorable behavior at any time it is a relevant issue, especially if it goes to a central theme of his campaign. Having said that, IMO recent dishonorable behavior carries more weight than something that might be seen as a youthful indescretion. And if he wore them incorrectly 30 years ago but has since cleared the record and now claims nothing that he didn't actually earn then I think it would qualify as a youthful indescretion.

That's not the case here. The question is (a) whether he is misrepresenting himself, and if so, (b) is it an excusable mistake (e.g. clerical error) or is it an intentional deception.

[patteeu]

How he wore his medals at his testimony doesn't concern me nearly as much as the things he said at the testimony. The medal thing really carries no weight with me.

If I found out that the swiftvets claims were all true, then it would bother me a great deal that Kerry finagled his medals. It would also bother me if I found out that he was intentionally embellishing his military record now. But you are right, the aid and comfort he gave to the enemy via his congressional testimony is a far more important reason to be bothered. It would be different if he were confessing to his own war crimes, but instead he was confessing on behalf of his fellow soldiers/sailors/marines even though there is no evidence (that I'm aware of) that he ever witnessed an atrocity himself.

[watermock]

The only "extra V' on a Silver Star in the history of the Navy is a Clerical Error that just happens to Kerry?

4 Bronze campaign stars when was there less than two?

Asking for a new copy of his citation and getting a brand new, more flowery one from Lehman, who denies ever seeing it? Again, totally out of SOP, and may possibly be the only example of the citation re-written. Your supposed to get a COPY.

The controvery "were they his medals?" Yes. "were they others medals you threw" yes.

Do you have your medals?" No "Do you have your medals?" Yes

Give me a break. This guy trades his stuff around like pogs.

[Blueflame]

Of course they (I) would. If he has exhibited less than honorable behavior at any time it is a relevant issue, especially if it goes to a central theme of his campaign. Having said that, IMO recent dishonorable behavior carries more weight than something that might be seen as a youthful indescretion. And if he wore them incorrectly 30 years ago but has since cleared the record and now claims nothing that he didn't actually earn then I think it would qualify as a youthful indescretion.

That's not the case here. The question is (a) whether he is misrepresenting himself, and if so, (b) is it an excusable mistake (e.g. clerical error) or is it an intentional deception.

Am I to take it, then, that you'd consider Bush's picture with the unearned ribbon relevant? Or because medals are only a central theme of his smears (if he's truly not connected in any way to the swiftliars, why would he say "Kerry's mad at us??) and not of his campaign, is that a trivial sidenote?

[patteeu]

Am I to take it, then, that you'd consider Bush's picture with the unearned ribbon relevant? Or because medals are only a central theme of his smears (if he's truly not connected in any way to the swiftliars, why would he say "Kerry's mad at us??) and not of his campaign, is that a trivial sidenote?

Relevant, yes. Decisive, not even close as far as my vote is concerned.

JFKerry has made his Vietnam war exploits a central pillar of his campaign. If we find out that he's been involved in an ongoing fraud about those exploits, IMO, it should seriously damage his credibility. Kerry, himself, made the following statement regarding this type of situation:

"If you wind up being less than what you’re pretending to be, there is a major confrontation with value and self-esteem and your sense of how others view you." - Senator John Kerry commenting on Admiral Jeremy Boorda and the accusations that the Admiral improperly wore a combat "V" in association with his Bronze Star

As for Bush, to me his 4 year record as President would outweigh the allegation that he appeared with ribbons he didn't earn over 30 years ago even if those allegations turned out to be true. The fact that he has had 30+ years of history to either redeem himself from such an indescretion or to reinforce the indictment of his character that such an act would be is an important factor IMO. As far as I can tell, he does not currently pretend to be more than he is. OTOH, if I were to find out that he lied to get us into a war that we have no business being in then I'd be more than persuaded to vote for someone else. Thankfully, this is not the case.

[Southern Bronco]

Blueflame, I'm sure you are extremely well versed in the vagaries of ribbon wearing in the military, circa 1965-1975. If not, you may interested to know that when a unit received a citation, the CO of that unit, may at his discretion, require all members of said unit, regardless of time in that unit, wear said unit citation ribbon.

For example, if the 505th of the 99th Airborne received a presidential citation for bravery in a certain battle in Outer Monrovia in 1837, successive CO's of the 505th may require members to wear that citation ribbon as a form of keeping the tradition alive and enhancing esprit de corps.

But you already knew that, didn't you, Blueflame?

[watermock]

Am I to take it, then, that you'd consider Bush's picture with the unearned ribbon relevant? Or because medals are only a central theme of his smears (if he's truly not connected in any way to the swiftliars, why would he say "Kerry's mad at us??) and not of his campaign, is that a trivial sidenote?

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/08/images/23bush-medals-64.gif

The wing is an outstanding UNIT award. Try again. What spin. It wasn't an individual citation or award.

The second I don't know, but I would guess a Texan just might be a good aim with a rifle.

Move along.