Did Zell Miller hurt Bush chances for a second term last night?

[WaffleBoy]

Did Zell Miller’s standup comedy speech and WWE challenge with Hardball’s Chris Mathews hurt the GOP last night to reel in some of the independent voters?

The Boy Wonder ;)

[Mile High Shack]

Did Zell Miller’s standup comedy speech and WWE challenge with Hardball’s Chris Mathews hurt the GOP last night to reel in some of the independent voters?

The Boy Wonder ;)

no it didn't

all the public knows he has a D by his name.........after that who knows.

It didn't hurt at all, the left wants it to hurt.

[WaffleBoy]

no it didn't

all the public knows he has a D by his name.........after that who knows.

It didn't hurt at all, the left wants it to hurt.

Personally, I thought Zell Miller‘s comedy routine beat out Al Sharpton’s last night.

The Boy Wonder ;)

[Rascal]

First off you have to realize that last night was meant for the undecided. It was meant for Republicans and far right extremists.

It probably pissed off hard core democrats, but like they cared about them anyway.

As far as his performance on Hardball or whatever it was, I didn't see it and didn't hear about till I got here so I can't comment.

One thing that he did bring up that was interesting was how Kerry voted against all of those military platforms and how Kerry wanted us to win with spitballs. That was pretty funny.

[plummerrox]

It certainly didn't hurt - not sure if it helped much. As most things - it confirmed peoples opionions on both sides.

[Spider]

First off you have to realize that last night was meant for the undecided. It was meant for Republicans and far right extremists.
Still working on this one ;D



As far as his performance on Hardball or whatever it was, I didn't see it and didn't hear about till I got here so I can't comment.

One thing that he did bring up that was interesting was how Kerry voted against all of those military platforms and how Kerry wanted us to win with spitballs. That was pretty funny.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5445086/
It is clear to me that Zell didnt understand or hear what Chris Mathews asked , but Zell did the Old if you cant dazzle them with brillance , baffle them with bullshiat tactic ......... I thought Zell got in a few good points during all the rhetoric , but he over played his hand .........

[Garcia Bronco]

Still working on this one ;D




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5445086/
It is clear to me that Zell didnt understand or hear what Chris Mathews asked , but Zell did the Old if you cant dazzle them with brillance , baffle them with bullshiat tactic ......... I thought Zell got in a few good points during all the rhetoric , but he over played his hand .........

Which would you define as BS tactics?

[Spider]

Which would you define as BS tactics?
The I wish we lived in a time where we could Dual , the I wish we was closer so I could get in your face , Alot of the rest is Rhetoric , for example I applaud Kerry for serving yadda , yadda, yadda , when Zell wasnt even asked about that , Chris realy muddied up a few of his questions , but even I could decipher what Chris was asking and if you ask a few Chief fans here , I am not very bright , to me he over played his hand ......

[Spider]

But then GB , when your stance isnt as strong , you have to cover it up with alot of rhetoric , to me I think the reps have alot of strong points as well as the Dems , even Nader brings alot of good things to the table ......But Drama , will only carry you so far , it is a Short term hit , feel good in the moment kind of thing , but soon you need subtance , what Zell left off was Dick Cheney voted exactly like Kerry did on alot of those weapons bills ....... it all will come full circle overthe next 2 months

[Garcia Bronco]

Yeah...I thought his speech was awesome for the simple reason that he tolded it like it is.....which I admire. I'm old school like that. I say what I mean and mean what I say. We don't get that anymore from our leaders. We get a pre-package focus group steaming pile.

[Spider]

Yeah...I thought his speech was awesome for the simple reason that he tolded it like it is.....which I admire. I'm old school like that. I say what I mean and mean what I say. We don't get that anymore from our leaders. We get a pre-package focus group steaming pile.
I am Old School and He should have told the entire story , we have a different definition of telling it like it is , and I am not one for threatning People that Clearly are not in a position to defend themselfs , Now if Mathews would have been a more physical person , then the threatning would have carried more wieght , No glory in beating the Snot out of a Guy that was in the Math club ..... but thats were we differ ........

[Hogan11]

As I said before...for a generation raised on Morton Downey Jr., Wally George and talk radio, being bombastic and mean spirited is often mistaken for being strong....to these people, discussion is boring, they want "in your face" action, they want someone biatchslapped and humiliated or the arguement is considered lost.

That's what Miller set out to provide last night.....the Springer crowd of course loved it, but it had no substance and reeked of the bitterness of a personal grudge.

Effect: Little, especially after being denutted in post speech interviews.

Cheney was much more effective....subtle, even toned and direct with no bombast....I'm the first to admit, I was surprised by his performance...his tone, temperment and content brought sanity back to the podium and effectively did damage control in the wake of Miller's spew artfully. His presentation was very, very good as a result and I'm looking forward to the Edwards/Cheney debate now more than ever.....it'll bore the hell out of the Springer crowd, but it's sure to be the best of the debates overall IMO.

Effect: Tremendous, possibly even a convention saving one.

[Maximus]

Has everyone forgotten what happend to Howard Dean?

[Mile High Shack]

Has everyone forgotten what happend to Howard Dean?


Zell Miller isn't running for office

AND

he didn't let out some sort of guttural scream either.

I think you WANT it to be like Howard Dean.

amazing how much the left Bush haters are scampering lately.

[Spider]

Zell Miller isn't running for office

AND

he didn't let out some sort of guttural scream either.

I think you WANT it to be like Howard Dean.

amazing how much the left Bush haters are scampering lately.
Huh , I wonder why you feel the need to comparing people giving thier interpitation as to what Happened between Mathews and Miller as Scampering ?
I wasnt aware that Bush was even brought up in this Convo yet ?
I agree with Hogan , the Debate between Cheney and Edwards will be a damn good one , if that is scampering to you then so be it ...... Like I said in a Previous post , if your stance is weak Run with rhetoric ........

[Hogan11]

he didn't let out some sort of guttural scream either.


No screams from Miller, He just yelled all the way through his speech.

[Garcia Bronco]

I am Old School and He should have told the entire story , we have a different definition of telling it like it is , and I am not one for threatning People that Clearly are not in a position to defend themselfs , Now if Mathews would have been a more physical person , then the threatning would have carried more wieght , No glory in beating the Snot out of a Guy that was in the Math club ..... but thats were we differ ........


Actually I'm gonna disagree with you there. Indeed, and not always, might is right. Violence is absolute. That's why I don't really care when cops beat the piss out of a guy like Rodney King. He was speeding...on PCP...didn't pull over...so he got the beat down. And he deserved it. Just like Mathews last night....I didn't see it because I don't pander to analysts or whatever BS they're spewing....but if he was being a jackass and Zell told him he'd knock his block off...good...maybe he taught the little math geek some manners.

[Old Dude]

... amazing how much the left Bush haters are scampering lately.

With all due respect, Shack, a lot of us Bush haters aren't scampering anywhere. I haven't bothered to watch more than 5 minutes of either convention because I already know what both sides are going to say.

I really think that this country is deeply polarized and most of the voters made up their minds months ago. Most of those who haven't made up their minds aren't much into politics anyway, and I doubt that many of them would bother watching either convention.

The biggest threat to Bush, IMO, would be a heavy turnout at the polls. Republicans always vote. 96 year old Republicans on their deathbeds find a way to vote. Democrats only vote when they feel like it.

The last election was very close. And not just in Florida. I suspect that, for that reason alone - - because there may be some "drama" element - - there will be a higher turnout this year. How much higher, I don't know, but I do know that voter registration is way, way up locally.

[BRONCOCHIEF]

I'm sorry, I loved the comment about "Armed forces?????Armed with what, spitballs?"

[Spider]

Actually I'm gonna disagree with you there. Indeed, and not always, might is right. Violence is absolute. That's why I don't really care when cops beat the piss out of a guy like Rodney King. He was speeding...on PCP...didn't pull over...so he got the beat down. And he deserved it. Just like Mathews last night....I didn't see it because I don't pander to analysts or whatever BS they're spewing....but if he was being a jackass and Zell told him he'd knock his block off...good...maybe he taught the little math geek some manners.
Thats fine we can disagree , but on the Part of teaching Math geek a lesson , Dont go on math Geeks turf.... Anger = Losing the argument Anger is a last ditch effort , See Miller has a beef with Kerry , and thats fine , but Miller didnt have one with Mathews , and Mathews Show hardball has been around awhile , so it wasnt like Miller was ambushed , Miller knew what the show was about , Miller Knew his remarks would bring up questions , I propose that if Miller didnt feel he was in a Position to defend his remarks , he never should have went on the Program .........
I'm sorry, I loved the comment about "Armed forces??Armed with what, spitballs?"
LOL . I heard that and for some reason I pictured a south Park episode

[Maximus]

Zell Miller isn't running for office

AND

he didn't let out some sort of guttural scream either.

I think you WANT it to be like Howard Dean.

amazing how much the left Bush haters are scampering lately.

Nice assumption that I hate Bush... I happen to think that his abandonment of his domestic policy is his weakness. We all knew that he was a killer from his Governor days in Texas. He's the obvious choice if you want to go to war. He'll keep us safe but, in the meantime... We need Jobs, Health Care, Affordable Day Care, After School Programs, A Cleaner Environment & Budget that close to being balanced... These are a few important issues that your Hero will have to answer during the debates!

As far as Miller vs Dean... Millers' whole speech was gutteral and over the top. The entire thing was refuted by Wolff Blitzer last night... Chris Matthews also Refuted him... He was an overall disaster.

[Mile High Shack]

With all due respect, Shack, a lot of us Bush haters aren't scampering anywhere. I haven't bothered to watch more than 5 minutes of either convention because I already know what both sides are going to say.

I really think that this country is deeply polarized and most of the voters made up their minds months ago. Most of those who haven't made up their minds aren't much into politics anyway, and I doubt that many of them would bother watching either convention.

The biggest threat to Bush, IMO, would be a heavy turnout at the polls. Republicans always vote. 96 year old Republicans on their deathbeds find a way to vote. Democrats only vote when they feel like it.

The last election was very close. And not just in Florida. I suspect that, for that reason alone - - because there may be some "drama" element - - there will be a higher turnout this year. How much higher, I don't know, but I do know that voter registration is way, way up locally.

actually I disagree with you......

There has been speculation that some people are telling pollsters one thing but going to vote another way. Like some people are embarrased they are going to vote for W. When it comes down to it, people feel safer with him at the controls against terroism than Heinz man.

I think Bush is going to win a lot easier than what people are saying right now, I think Kerry had his chance and he blew it and 90% of the time, undecided generally vote for the incumbant and since Kerry hasn't swayed anyone and has taken quite a few hits lately, I don't see that changing.

[Garcia Bronco]

Thats fine we can disagree , but on the Part of teaching Math geek a lesson , Dont go on math Geeks turf.... Anger = Losing the argument Anger is a last ditch effort , See Miller has a beef with Kerry , and thats fine , but Miller didnt have one with Mathews , and Mathews Show hardball has been around awhile , so it wasnt like Miller was ambushed , Miller knew what the show was about , Miller Knew his remarks would bring up questions , I propose that if Miller didnt feel he was in a Position to defend his remarks , he never should have went on the Program .........

LOL . I heard that and for some reason I pictured a south Park episode

Right on....but just to point out...one can get violent without getting angry. Zell may have been angry on the mathew show...like I said I didn't see it...but either way math geek is just a TV tough guy asking his questions. If the world ended tomorrow...guys like him wouldn't survive...you know why...no balls. He's like a house cat.

[Mile High Shack]

Nice assumption that I hate Bush... I happen to think that his abandonment of his domestic policy is his weakness. We all knew that he was a killer from his Governor days in Texas. He's the obvious choice if you want to go to war. He'll keep us safe but, in the meantime... We need Jobs, Health Care, Affordable Day Care, After School Programs, A Cleaner Environment & Budget that close to being balanced... These are a few important issues that your Hero will have to answer during the debates!

As far as Miller vs Dean... Millers' whole speech was gutteral and over the top. The entire thing was refuted by Wolff Blitzer last night... Chris Matthews also Refuted him... He was an overall disaster.


Bush isn't my hero, but the better option of the two.

its obvious you do hate Bush btw, with all of your posts.

Kerry has a lot to answer to, to as well.......his voting record is going to kill him.

[Garcia Bronco]

Nice assumption that I hate Bush... I happen to think that his abandonment of his domestic policy is his weakness. We all knew that he was a killer from his Governor days in Texas. He's the obvious choice if you want to go to war. He'll keep us safe but, in the meantime... We need Jobs, Health Care, Affordable Day Care, After School Programs, A Cleaner Environment & Budget that close to being balanced...

First of all...it's not the governements responsibilty to provide...day care, health care, after school programs, or jobs. This is the fundamental flaw of the left. A cleaner environment? I agree...but look to congress...they pass and write the laws.

[Spider]

Right on....but just to point out...one can get violent without getting angry. Zell may have been angry on the mathew show...like I said I didn't see it...but either way math geek is just a TV tough guy asking his questions. If the world ended tomorrow...guys like him wouldn't survive...you know why...no balls. He's like a house cat.
Zell was clearly angry , and whats worse is Zell didnt even understand the question , instead of saying Chris would you repeat your question ?
instead Zell went off the deep end , Point about TV tough guy , Well Zell Knew Mathews Reputation of asking hardball questions ......
Far as I am concerned Wolf Blitzer was alot harder on Zell , and Zell didnt Challenge Wolf to a duel ......

[Garcia Bronco]

Zell was clearly angry , and whats worse is Zell didnt even understand the question , instead of saying Chris would you repeat your question ?
instead Zell went off the deep end , Point about TV tough guy , Well Zell Knew Mathews Reputation of asking hardball questions ......
Far as I am concerned Wolf Blitzer was alot harder on Zell , and Zell didnt Challenge Wolf to a duel ......

One of the best Presidents/Statesman we ever had was Andrew Jackson...he died with two bullets in him from dueling. That's a tough bastard.

[Spider]

One of the best Presidents/Statesman we ever had was Andrew Jackson...he died with two bullets in him from dueling. That's a tough bastard.
Yeah he was ..........

[Maximus]

What's obvious in all my posts is that the War on Terror is Bush's strong suit and domestic policy is his weak suit. You want me to hate him but I don't... Again Both Candidates Suck!

I'm not one that can be polarized by one issue... common sense prevails with me. Like I said on another thread. George Bush did what he had to do. he didn't have a choice... if he didn't respond the American People would have lynched him. John Kerry and Jimmy Carter would do the same thing... There are certain situations that the President is forced to respond to... There just wasn't a choice.

He handled the attacks perfectly... He validated our feelings when he said "I can hear you... and the people who did this will hear from us soon" The American public wanted war right then... No matter who did it and GWB knew that he had to respond!

John Kerry would be an after thought if GWB had taken care of some of his promises but, his domestic policy is non existent. His foreign policy... ( excuse me what foreign policy ) The Budget is out of control. He has the largest surplus in history and now he has the biggest fiscal deficit ever! I could bring up NCLB but... I'm reading a post by one of the OM's house bush supporters and I will reserve judgement until after I finish reading Mocks Post.

Kerry's voting record mirrors Dick Cheney at the Department of Defense???

[Spider]

.

Kerry's voting record mirrors Dick Cheney at the Department of Defense???
It sure does

[Maximus]

First of all...it's not the governements responsibilty to provide...day care, health care, after school programs, or jobs. This is the fundamental flaw of the left. A cleaner environment? I agree...but look to congress...they pass and write the laws.

I agree. If individual states have the funds to take care of these things they should do it. The problem is that on the state level the funds are depleted so guess who has to allocate the money... The Federal Govt...

BTW... I'm not left or right... Those are terms that polarize. I'm not Democrat, Republican, Libetarian, Conservative or Liberal... I'm to smart to allow myself to be heaped into a political category. My Views change from subject to subject and those are subject to change based on individual situations.

For instance I'm a Raider fan who hates the donkeys I liked John Elway but Hated SOB. I can't stand Eli Manning because of what he did but Elway did the same thing and he played for the enemy... But I hate SOB more than Eli...

[Rascal]

Still working on this one ;D




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5445086/
It is clear to me that Zell didnt understand or hear what Chris Mathews asked , but Zell did the Old if you cant dazzle them with brillance , baffle them with bullshiat tactic ......... I thought Zell got in a few good points during all the rhetoric , but he over played his hand .........


LOL

I forgot to add "not".

No wonder it didn't make any sense.

[Rascal]

I have to agree with Garcia about the issue of social programs.

I'm sorry but I will be damned if I am going to work hard for my money and to have the Federal Gov't come in and take 33% and give it to some lazy ass turds who don't want to work pisses me off.

Disability and paying/supporting our soldiers is one thing, but the other things you mentioned really piss me off.

This is a capitalist society not a socialist society. If you want a socialist society go to China, N. Korea, or Cuba.

[Spider]

LOL

I forgot to add "not".

No wonder it didn't make any sense.
I figured that , just giving ya a rough time ;D
But I knew what you meant .......

[Rohirrim]

I thought Zell came across as a whack job, especially when his speech was compared to his after speech comments. When Wolf Blitzer told him that Cheney voted against many of the military bills that Kerry voted against, Zell almost yelled at him, "We're not talking about Cheney." Kind of zooey.

Nobody trusts a traitor. Deep down, every American knows that this guy has taken friends (like Carville) who got him elected numerous times, and stabbed them in the back. That point is especially clear if they compare this speech with the one he gave in 1992 ripping Bush I apart in the same manner. So, voters know that Bush is behind the Swiftliars and now this traitor, Zig Zag Zell.

I don't know if that will sell with independent voters or not, but it could easily produce the opposite of the intended result.

[Old Dude]

actually I disagree with you......
...
I think Kerry had his chance and he blew it and ... since Kerry hasn't swayed anyone and has taken quite a few hits lately, I don't see that changing.

Kerry is still commanding 45-50% in all the polls of "likely voters." That hasn't changed since March. Bush is consistently running at around 43-49%. Both obviously have a significant hard-core support. There's been virtually no change in that. It's all within the margin of error, and, historically, voter turnout will swing it one way or the other.

Bush can hit Kerry all day and all night. It doesn't make any difference. Most of Kerry's support is not from people who love John Kerry, but from People who hate the Bush Administration. Those who hated him before, still hate him, and hate him with a passion. It's just a question of how many show up on election day.

[bendog]

Old dude, the numbers that really hate BushII have increased since 00 and really increased since his invasion of iraq.

Garcia and Spide. I too admire Jackson's decisions to institute a national bank to try and help the common guy who would get whacked by speculators and recessions caused by macro-econ forces that the ultra rich would manipulate. But, I've heard from others that he had little concern with using govt powers to derail the BOR. I need a new biography on the guy.

[watermock]

Social Programs? On Education, so much money was allocated the schools can't even use it all. It was a CAP on how much could be spent, education levels have been raised nationwide.

Bush extended unemployment benefits.

Bush has reformed prescription drugs, not the best bill, but it brings relief. Big insurance got a handout tho. Let the Canadians sell them at a loss. National Health Insurance wouldn't go anywhere even if Bush proposed it.

What is Bush supposed to do about outsourcing? Tell Nike they can't go out and play? The fundamental problem is taxation and overregulation, along with wages and gratefull workers overseas. There is also "outsourcing" to home employed and small sub-contractors in the US. Companies do this for obvious reasons.

We are supposed to be able to control crude prices? Open up Alaska with a spur, Prudoe Bay can't even supply capacity, and build another across the Bering Straight to Siberia.

As far as Zell Miller goes, he was one pissed off dude and I was laughing in astonishment. He was so pissed at Kerry his voice was shaking. I didn't see the interviews, I think was pretty vehemous, but I enjoyed it, and the delegates sucked it up like LoneStar Beer. Remember, this guy is a democrat. That HAS to hurt. This election is very polarized, and both sides have defectors.

I loved the rusty 1950's warehouse with the old desk, what a joke pf am ad by Kerry.

As far as Cheney goes, he came off as well as you could hope.

Tonight is the opportunity for Bush to lay out his social plan. If he's smart, that should be the emphasis. There has been enough war on terrorism rant. This speech is critical.

Usually, Bush will pull out a good speech when the heat is on.

[Blueflame]

actually I disagree with you......

There has been speculation that some people are telling pollsters one thing but going to vote another way. Like some people are embarrased they are going to vote for W. When it comes down to it, people feel safer with him at the controls against terroism than Heinz man.

I think Bush is going to win a lot easier than what people are saying right now, I think Kerry had his chance and he blew it and 90% of the time, undecided generally vote for the incumbant and since Kerry hasn't swayed anyone and has taken quite a few hits lately, I don't see that changing.

This flies in the face of the stats I've seen, Shack... logic would suggest that the incumbent has had four years to endear himself to the electorate, and if he had succeeded with the voters in question, they would no longer fall into the category of "undecided". Hence, unless he does something major to accomplish that before election day, they are equally... if not slightly more... likely to opt for the "other" guy.

Oh... and for the record, Zell Miller is not a Democrat; he's a DINO (Democrat-in-name-only). IMO, he should stop the charade and just switch to his true party, as he votes in lockstep with the gop roughly 90% of the time.

[Mile High Shack]

no it doesn't...I'm just telling you what I heard on MSNBC, it made sense to me and that isn't a republican news show.

and this election is different, it is going to boil down to...who do you feel safer with...Kerry or Bush, whether you like it or not, for a lot of the people that is what it is going to boil down to.

[Blueflame]

no it doesn't...I'm just telling you what I heard on MSNBC, it made sense to me and that isn't a republican news show.

and this election is different, it is going to boil down to...who do you feel safer with...Kerry or Bush, whether you like it or not, for a lot of the people that is what it is going to boil down to.

Sorry, Shack... I'm not buying the 90% number. I don't believe the numbers from past elections would support the contention that nine of ten undecideds eventually vote for the incumbent.

I do agree that this election is different... I don't think the country has been this polarized since the Civil War. What I think it will boil down to is this: do we like the direction Bush is taking the country or not? And roughly 45% of the electorate says yes to that question. Terrorism (safety) is only one part of the equation, with many other issues also factoring in.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Quotes

"My job tonight is an easy one: to present to you one of this nation's authentic heroes, one of this party's best-known and greatest leaders and a good friend. John has worked to strengthen our military, reform public education, boost the economy and protect the environment.

-- Zell Miller, January 03, praising Kerry, his hero, before he took their money

http://www.bartcop.com/zell_future.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Dueling Quotes

"Twenty years of votes can tell you much more about a man than twenty weeks of campaign rhetoric. Campaign talk tells people who you want them to think you are.
How you vote tells people who you really are deep inside."

--Zell Miller, criticizing Kerry's voting record at NaziCon2004

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20040902/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp

"John Kerry has fought against government waste and worked hard to bring some
accountability to Washington…He fought for balanced budgets before it was considered
politically correct for Democrats to do so. John has worked to strengthen our military,
reform public education, boost the economy and protect the environment."

--Zell Miller, praising Kerry's voting record in a 2001 speech

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=180417

Looks like Zig Zag Zell is joining the flip-flop party.

Why did Zell Miller turn whore? For the same reasons most whores do - for the money.

He's got a book out that screams insult at Democrats. If he was just another Rethug screaming at the left, the book wouldn't do very well. But a Democrat fellating Bush and spewing hate at Democrats sells lots of books.

[Taco John]

Zell Miller didn't hurt Bush at all by his speech... It was a good speech, and well delivered. It did nothing but help Bush.

Zell's performance AFTER the speech hurt himself, because even though he thought he was prepared, he clearly wasn't... He didn't know that Bush also called our troops an occupying force (which they are, the liberation part is over). He didn't know that Cheney's proposed miltary cuts were much deeper than Kerry's were (and why not, the Cold war was over). And he was militant and batty.

But he didn't hurt Bush or help Kerry...

The problem with Kerry is that his campaign (and thus supporters) don't attack the message, but instead attack the character of the people delivering the message. It's a losing strategy.

While I don't like Bush, and wish that someone, anyone would unshelve him, I'm resigned to the fact that it isn't going to happen. The Democrats offered up a weak candidate with an even weaker strategy. They're flailing right now, and it's only a matter of time before Kerry takes his place with the Dukakises, Mondales, Doles and Gores of US politics.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

While I don't like Bush, and wish that someone, anyone would unshelve him, I'm resigned to the fact that it isn't going to happen. The Democrats offered up a weak candidate with an even weaker strategy. They're flailing right now, and it's only a matter of time before Kerry takes his place with the Dukakises, Mondales, Doles and Gores of US politics.

This reminds me of when people were writing Kerry off before the Iowa caucuses.

There's still a lot of time between now and November 2, and the polls don't really give any great cause for alarm. One of the major polls (Rasmussen) showed the rethugs dropping 3 points during their convention.

After Smirk's coronation speech tonight, it's a level playing field with respect to the amount of money both candidates can spend. Look for the Kerry campaign to start landing some body blows to the frat boy. And if you look at Kerry's history, he always performs at his best when his back is to the wall.

[Taco John]

While I don't like Bush, and wish that someone, anyone would unshelve him, I'm resigned to the fact that it isn't going to happen. The Democrats offered up a weak candidate with an even weaker strategy. They're flailing right now, and it's only a matter of time before Kerry takes his place with the Dukakises, Mondales, Doles and Gores of US politics.

This reminds me of when people were writing Kerry off before the Iowa caucuses.

There's still a lot of time between now and November 2, and the polls don't really give any great cause for alarm. One of the major polls (Rasmussen) showed the rethugs dropping 3 points during their convention.

After Smirk's coronation speech tonight, it's a level playing field with respect to the amount of money both candidates can spend. Look for the Kerry campaign to start landing some body blows to the frat boy. And if you look at Kerry's history, he always performs at his best when his back is to the wall.



Well, I hope you're right... But I don't see it. I have definitely written off Kerry, and will be glad to be wrong if he manages to pull something out of his hat. The way I see it, he's a weak candidate with a weak strategy. I don't know how he'll dig out of the hole he's in... The convention isn't even over, and the Bush bump has already gone up four points. I don't think Kerry can overcome a two more percent bump for Bush...

[Taco John]

One of the major polls (Rasmussen) showed the rethugs dropping 3 points during their convention.



I don't know what you're talking about. Rassmussen is the poll that I follow, and he's showing a four point bounce (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Presidential_Tracking_Poll.htm) before Bush even takes the podium...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The way I see it, he's a weak candidate with a weak strategy.

I don't think either claim is really accurate. The real problem is that Kerry isn't really running against George W. Bush--he's running against the media.

The GOP has basically purchased the political narrative and discussion. Hence, we get 24/7 coverage of the SwiftLiars for Bush instead of equal time examining Bush's military service (or lack thereof) and his record as president.

The SwiftLiar ad had a limited run in three states, but the bush lapdogs in the media gave it round-the-clock coverage for weeks. If we had a media that was committed to focusing on the real issues of concern to most Americans, e.g., jobs, health care, the economy, Iraq, etc., then it would be Kerry in a landslide, IMO.

[alkemical]

I have to agree with Garcia about the issue of social programs.

I'm sorry but I will be damned if I am going to work hard for my money and to have the Federal Gov't come in and take 33% and give it to some lazy ass turds who don't want to work pisses me off.

Disability and paying/supporting our soldiers is one thing, but the other things you mentioned really piss me off.

This is a capitalist society not a socialist society. If you want a socialist society go to China, N. Korea, or Cuba.




wrong. we are a corporate state socialist society -

we bail out corporations,

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't know what you're talking about. Rassmussen is the poll that I follow, and he's showing a four point bounce (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Presidential_Tracking_Poll.htm) before Bush even takes the podium...

I guess this is just one more example of how often the numbers vascilate.
Just last night the same poll showed a 3-point dip.

In any event, you can bank on hearing the right-wing pundits yammering between now and November about how Kerry's goose is cooked. It's the usual right-wing psy-ops tactic, i.e., they hope that if they repeat it often enough then people will accept it as fact/reality and that Kerry's supporters will get discouraged and give up.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Kerry is still commanding 45-50% in all the polls of "likely voters." That hasn't changed since March. Bush is consistently running at around 43-49%. Both obviously have a significant hard-core support. There's been virtually no change in that. It's all within the margin of error, and, historically, voter turnout will swing it one way or the other.

Bush can hit Kerry all day and all night. It doesn't make any difference. Most of Kerry's support is not from people who love John Kerry, but from People who hate the Bush Administration. Those who hated him before, still hate him, and hate him with a passion. It's just a question of how many show up on election day.

:thumbsup:

Good post.

[Taco John]

The way I see it, he's a weak candidate with a weak strategy.

I don't think either claim is really accurate. The real problem is that Kerry isn't really running against George W. Bush--he's running against the media.


I get frustrated when I hear crap like this from either side. I'm in PR, so I know a wee bit about how the media works. As far as I'm concerned, Kerry's campaign has been a miserable failure at managing the media.



The GOP has basically purchased the political narrative and discussion. Hence, we get 24/7 coverage of the SwiftLiars for Bush instead of equal time examining Bush's military service (or lack thereof) and his record as president.


This is garbage. Equal time examining Bush's service? Uh, we saw that during the primaries. And it was weak. The fact is, Kerry ran on his service in Vietnam, and left himself open to attack. Which is fine if he planned on responding to those attacks. Instead, he just took it, without refuting the attacks. Which makes me ask, if he's going to just sit there and take it when he's being personally attacked, why should anyone believe that he'll be willing to protect our country if it's under attack...

There is disagreement inside the campaign over who is to blame for the belated response to the attacks on the Kerry's war service. Kerry has told some Democratic friends he wanted to strike back hard weeks ago, but several advisers talked him out of it because polls and focus groups showed a negative response could backfire. Yet one aide said Kerry privately conceded that he, like most of his top staff, miscalculated the impact of the attacks by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the influence of 24-hour cable news in shaping public opinion, and thought the controversy would blow over. One Kerry friend said the candidate focuses on more traditional news outlets and lacks a sophisticated understanding of modern media. "You would think he would have recognized this five years ago," the friend said.


The bolded shows incredibly WEAK leadership. Ashonishingly weak. I don't like Bush, and would love to see him lose... But for that to happen, Kerry has to win my vote. He's doing a terrible job of it.


The SwiftLiar ad had a limited run in three states, but the bush lapdogs in the media gave it round-the-clock coverage for weeks. If we had a media that was committed to focusing on the real issues of concern to most Americans, e.g., jobs, health care, the economy, Iraq, etc., then it would be Kerry in a landslide, IMO.


And Kerry's response was? Yeah, to sit and take it and hope it would go away.

Unimpressive. His campaign is flailing, and he's losing votes... And not even losing votes to Bush. He's just losing them to the ether.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I get frustrated when I hear crap like this from either side. I'm in PR, so I know a wee bit about how the media works. As far as I'm concerned, Kerry's campaign has been a miserable failure at managing the media.

Am I to understand that you deny the right-wing bias of today's mainstream media (inherent in its conservative corporate ownership/editorial policies?)

And, just out of curiousity, since you work in media, how can Kerry "manage" the media?

The bolded shows incredibly WEAK leadership. Ashonishingly weak. I don't like Bush, and would love to see him lose... But for that to happen, Kerry has to win my vote.

I don't understand this statement. If you want bush to lose, then a vote for Kerry is your only real chance to see this happen. Voting for Nader or not voting at all is the least effective strategy for accomplishing your goal (seeing bush lose) IMHO.

And Kerry's response was? Yeah, to sit and take it and hope it would go away.
Unimpressive. His campaign is flailing, and he's losing votes... And not even losing votes to Bush. He's just losing them to the ether.

I understand your frustration, but there's still a lot of time between now and 11/2, and I don't think Kerry is just going to roll over. Kerrry has a history of pulling out all the stops when it's down to the wire. He is a warrior, and bush is a fake.

[Taco John]

Am I to understand that you deny the right-wing bias of today's mainstream media (inherent in its conservative corporate ownership/editorial policies?)

Yes. I don't buy it. From either side. Both sides complain about the "biased" media. Which tells me that both sides are probably wrong.

You can think what you want about the media. It's all just so much excuses for poor leadership as far as I'm concerned. Media are like refs. You overcome them if you want to win.


And, just out of curiousity, since you work in media, how can Kerry "manage" the media?


By managing your message and not letting them run away with a story without challenging them every step of the way. This is nothing new.



The bolded shows incredibly WEAK leadership. Ashonishingly weak. I don't like Bush, and would love to see him lose... But for that to happen, Kerry has to win my vote.

I don't understand this statement. If you want bush to lose, then a vote for Kerry is your only real chance to see this happen. Voting for Nader or not voting at all is the least effective strategy for accomplishing your goal (seeing bush lose) IMHO.

I want to see Bush lose because I don't feel safe with him at the helm. But I'm not going to just cast my vote for Kerry at the cost of my self-respect. I'd just as soon vote for Badnarik if Kerry is incapable of winning my vote by making me believe in him. I'm not going to vote for him just because he's the lesser of two evils... I'm not going to waste my vote on an empty suit that I don't believe in. It's my vote, and Kerry has to win it if he wants it... Right now, I don't believe he wants it bad enough.



And Kerry's response was? Yeah, to sit and take it and hope it would go away.
Unimpressive. His campaign is flailing, and he's losing votes... And not even losing votes to Bush. He's just losing them to the ether.

I understand your frustration, but there's still a lot of time between now and 11/2, and I don't think Kerry is just going to roll over. Kerrry has a history of pulling out all the stops when it's down to the wire. He is a warrior, and bush is a fake.


We'll see. Kerry is going to have a lot of ground to make up in order to make it happen. I'm not going to be suprised if it turns out to be a landslide for Bush.

[Hogan11]

Zell Miller didn't hurt Bush at all by his speech... It was a good speech, and well delivered. It did nothing but help Bush.

I disagree, he came off a bitter old crank. Yelling his way through it is not what I'd call "well delivered" either.....it pays well with the wrestlemania PPV buyers hungry for anything that's "in your face" but he embarrassed himself otherwise.

Zell's performance AFTER the speech hurt himself, because even though he thought he was prepared, he clearly wasn't... He didn't know that Bush also called our troops an occupying force (which they are, the liberation part is over). He didn't know that Cheney's proposed miltary cuts were much deeper than Kerry's were (and why not, the Cold war was over). And he was militant and batty.

But he didn't hurt Bush or help Kerry...

This I agree with....but after watching this and his interviews during the DNC Convention, I believe him to be unprepared more often than not and as a result, he cuts his own throat.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I want to see Bush lose because I don't feel safe with him at the helm. But I'm not going to just cast my vote for Kerry at the cost of my self-respect. I'd just as soon vote for Badnarik if Kerry is incapable of winning my vote by making me believe in him. I'm not going to vote for him just because he's the lesser of two evils... I'm not going to waste my vote on an empty suit that I don't believe in. It's my vote, and Kerry has to win it if he wants it... Right now, I don't believe he wants it bad enough.

Here's my position:

This is the most important election of our lifetime.

Preventing another bush term (which, IMO, would be utterly disastrous) is more important than standing on principles in this instance. If you think the first bush term was bad, just imagine what will happen if/when he doesn't have to worry about facing the voters again.

Like it or not, voting for Kerry is the only thing I can do to prevent another four years of bush.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Will you watch Bush's speech?

http://www.cnn.com

At the present time 56% No 44% Yes

[Bronco Yoda]

I don't understand how anyone could possibly think that Zell could hurt the GOP last night. Is this thread supposed to be some lame kind of attempt at reverse psychology? Is there really anyone (other than the far left) that really thinks Zell hurt the GOP? Zell is a Democrat. He could moon the camera and display a 'dixicrat loves bush' tattoo on his butt and it still wouldn't hurt.

Zell was there to pump up the mood, play to the middle who don't follow or care for the details and play bad cop to Cheney's good cop. Looks to me like it worked like a charm to me. Did Zell overcook it. Sure. But all this did was lesson any positive effect it had.

This was basicaly a no-lose stunt played by the GOP. Love it or hate it.... that's what it was so just accept it and move on.

This poll should have been 'did Zell HELP the GOP' or 'did people buy what Zell was selling'.

sorry but this title-thread-spin is just silly IMO.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't understand how anyone could possibly think that Zell could hurt the GOP last night. Is this thread supposed to be some lame kind of attempt at reverse psychology? Is there really anyone (other than the far left) that really thinks Zell hurt the GOP?


Hilarious!

GOP backs away from Miller’s blast

Democrat ‘speaking for himself,’ Bush aide says

After gauging the harsh reaction from Democrats and Republicans alike to Sen. Zell Miller’s keynote address at the Republican National Convention, the Bush campaign — led by the first lady — backed away Thursday from Miller’s savage attack on Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry, insisting that the estranged Democrat was speaking only for himself.

Late Thursday, Miller’s name was removed from the list of dignitaries who would be sitting in the first family’s box during the president’s acceptance speech later in the evening. No explanation was immediately offered, but the change was made only a few hours after Laura Bush, asked about Miller’s deeply personal denunciation of his own party’s nominee, said in an interview with NBC News that “I don’t know that we share that point of view.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5897622/

[Bronco Yoda]

So?


The GOP let Zell go off and now they are backing away. Did he fizzle out quicker than expected or hoped? who knows. The point is he did his biz and kept other hands clean.

IMO, now they just got a 2-fer. Now they can point at the crazy Demo and present a 'higher standard' position keeping their distance now. How this helps the perception of the Demo's or hurts the GOP ....

Did you really think they'd bring him into the fold? He did their dirty work and now any negative backlash is left on him. Some of the things he said were right on the money. Some of the things were taken out of context. The point is.... He said it, not the GOP.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

He did their dirty work...

And what dirty work it is.

[watermock]

That doesn't matter Dimwit.

The GOP lashed out at the Swifties as well. In the smoking room they are laughing like hell. You have no clue. Of course they are going to distance themselves. To see a Democrat light up Kerry like that must of had them in hysterics.

Making a Democrat your pointman? C'mon Doofus, it's classic. Then you bring out the Mom figure in Laura to calm him down, it was all basically planned. You don't even have a clue about good cop bad cop.

The whole point was to bring out a democrat so disgusted with Kerry that he could barely control his anger. You don't even get it. Did you expect Laura to rip Kerry a new A-hole?

And not that it's very important, but Jesus Christ, The Portugese Wench Billionaire as representing as the 1st Lady?

Heinz-Kerry would probably be breaking dishes by the first 90 days in the White House. That woman is totally unstable if noone bothered to notice. Contrast that with the Loving Wife and Mother.

Who in the hell do you think came off as a First Lady? Crazy Woman or Wise Woman?

Do you think Bush's tears were fake when he talked about fallen soldiers like as Kerry's campaign has compared him to Hitler?

Who do you want escorting Foriegn Leaders wives around? A hotheaded Billionaire naturalized Latina out of her prime with a hothead, or calm Laura?

Now I'm not saying that we should vote over a first lady, but Jesus Christ. They need to keep Teresa-Heinz-Kerry in a cage. She's not even born American. She was Senator Heinz second wife as his hot Latina plaything and fell into 500 million when he croaked. Kerry was more than happy to help her on her feet. Ha!

Bush gave at least a 7 speech as well. And finally LABF, your just seething with desperation. I warned you about these swifty ads before they ever started. It's time to pull them back at this point, after one more carefully worded one. I have been seeing them in Iowa alot. They are getting redundant.

So what do they do? They offer to stop running them if Kerry comes clean and apologizes. Priceless strategy.

Here is how you write the next one:

We at the Swifties have offered to stop out ads if John Kerry will come clean about his record in Vietnam and make a formal apology.

Totally Priceless and Ruthless.

[Bronco Yoda]

Yah, it's dirty biz alright.... all around.

[Hogan11]

So?


The GOP let Zell go off and now they are backing away. Did he fizzle out quicker than expected or hoped? who knows. The point is he did his biz and kept other hands clean.

IMO, now they just got a 2-fer. Now they can point at the crazy Demo and present a 'higher standard' position keeping their distance now. How this helps the perception of the Demo's or hurts the GOP ....

Did you really think they'd bring him into the fold? He did their dirty work and now any negative backlash is left on him. Some of the things he said were right on the money. Some of the things were taken out of context. The point is.... He said it, not the GOP.

Don't kid yourself...Miller had no effect. From what I've seen and read, most have dismissed him as a yelling nut. Sure, he made Cheney look good in his wake, but after that performance, anyone would look good.

He was an embarrassment to all, period.

[Spider]

He was an embarrassment to all, period.
Thats it .......... I challenge you to a duel Hilarious!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Thats it .......... I challenge you to a duel Hilarious!

Hilarious!

Had Zig Zag not nutted up on Tweety on Hardball, he might have actually done some damage.

Unka KKKarl must've had a conniption. LOL

For the GOP, it's like spending money on a hooker and not getting the happy ending.

[Spider]

Hilarious!

Had Zig Zag not nutted up on Tweety on Hardball, he might have actually done some damage.

Unka KKKarl must've had a conniption. LOL

For the GOP, it's like spending money on a hooker and not getting the happy ending.
As soon as Zell took center stage and began ranting , it was over .... Cheney was far more effective ........ See wether we agree with these guys Dem or Reps , they are our Leaders , and no one wants to follow a raving Lunitic ....... Oh sure they are good for comedy , SNL should have a blast but No way in hell would I trust Zell to be in Charge ...... Hell he would scare the hell out of me just being a school crossing guard

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Oh sure they are good for comedy , SNL should have a blast...

You read my mail--I think Zig Zag would be a huge hit on SNL or Mad TV.

On the real, word has it Zell might have Alzheimer's. That's sad.

...but No way in hell would I trust Zell to be in Charge ...... Hell he would scare the hell out of me just being a school crossing guard

LOL

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I get frustrated when I hear crap like this from either side. I'm in PR, so I know a wee bit about how the media works.

TJ, I just don't understand how you can deny that the media covers bush's flank when both the WA Post and the NY Times have printed formal apologies in which they admitted to slanting their reporting to hype the run-up to the Iraq invasion.

[Bronco Yoda]

Time reports Bush with a 11 point bounce. Anyone still willing to argue that the Zell factor hurt Bush? Just curious.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Time reports Bush with a 11 point bounce. Anyone still willing to argue that the Zell factor hurt Bush? Just curious.

See the Bush bounce thread.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Thanks to the GOP, two new epithets have entered the English language:

"Cheney you," and, now, "Go to Zell!"

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Another Ah-nold RNC Speech Lie

Nixon NEVER EVER debated Humphrey on TV

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO409A.html

At the Republican Convention, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger said he became a Republican after listening to a televised debate between Hubert Humphrey and Richard Nixon in 1968.

In his address, he described arriving in the United States from Austria and hearing Richard Nixon challenge Hubert Humphrey in a televised presidential debate:

"I finally arrived here in 1968.I had empty pockets, but I was full of dreams. The presidential campaign was in full swing. I remember watching the Nixon and Humphrey presidential race on TV. A friend who spoke German and English, translated for me. I heard Humphrey saying things that sounded like socialism which is what I had just left. But then I heard Nixon speak. He was talking about free enterprise, getting government off your back, lowering taxes, and strengthening the military. Listening to Nixon speak sounded more like a breath of fresh air.

I said to my friend, "What party is he?" My friend said, "He's a Republican." I said, "Then I am a Republican!" And I've been a Republican ever since!" (complete speech at http://www.2004nycgop.org/cgi-data/speeches/files/2jl158h8hr9cm5t7e4d379jp6o186680.shtml

The records on televised presidential debates are unequivocal. They started in 1960 with the famous Kennedy-Nixon debate. Nixon's performance in this debate was in part instrumental in his defeat and the election of John F. Kennedy to the White house in the November 1960. (for a review of presidential debates since 1858 see The Commission on Presidential Debates at: http://www.debates.org/pages/history.html )

In the 1968 presidential campaign, Hubert Humphrey and Ed Muskie ran against Richard Nixon and Maryland Governor Spiro Agnew. Richard Nixon did not want to repeat his 1960 experience with JFK. He refused to debate his Democratic opponent Hubert Humphrey. (See Providence Journal-Bulletin (Rhode Island), October 3, 2000)

Although Humphrey challenged Nixon to a debate, there was no debate between Hubert Humphrey and Richard Nixon in 1968. Arnold Scharzenegger could not have seen it on TV, because it never took place. In fact, there were no presidential debates between 1960 and 1976.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO409A.html

The GOP just makes sh*t up with impunity.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Another lie Ah-nold told was the bit about seeing Russian tanks in the streets when he was a child in Austria.

Fact is, the last time there were Russian tanks in Austria was two years before Arnie was born.

[BroncoInferno]

Thats it .......... I challenge you to a duel Hilarious!

As Jon Stweart said, "Zell Miller: Building the bridge to the 18th century." Ha!

[Kaylore]

Another lie Ah-nold told was the bit about seeing Russian tanks in the streets when he was a child in Austria.

Fact is, the last time there were Russian tanks in Austria was two years before Arnie was born.

I'm going to step in here. The Governor has already explained that his comments weren't confined to his experiences in Austria. As a member of the soviet block he traveled around like anyone would and historians have pointed out there were any places that you could "see tanks in the streets." I mean come on you could see that in the eighties. The Communists love military parades showboating their metal.

[Hogan11]

I'm going to step in here. The Governor has already explained that his comments weren't confined to his experiences in Austria. As a member of the soviet block he traveled around like anyone would and historians have pointed out there were any places that you could "see tanks in the streets." I mean come on you could see that in the eighties. The Communists love military parades showboating their metal.

Austria was never a member of the Soviet Bloc.

[Kaylore]

Austria was never a member of the Soviet Bloc.
DOH! :homer: To be fair, the Governor didn't say that. I did.

[ozomulsion]

About your sig Kaylor. That's really going out on a limb to say you're a Champ Bailey homer. That's kind of like me saying I'm a Shaq homer. Doesn't make much sense.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm going to step in here. The Governor has already explained that his comments weren't confined to his experiences in Austria. As a member of the soviet block he traveled around like anyone would and historians have pointed out there were any places that you could "see tanks in the streets." I mean come on you could see that in the eighties. The Communists love military parades showboating their metal.

Total B.S. and Orwellian double-speak.

Herr Gropinator stated that, as a child, he'd seen Russian tanks in the streets of Austria when, in fact, there had been no Russian tanks in Austria for two years prior to Ah-nold's birth.

Nothing funnier than watching a conservative come to the rescue of a former gay porn actor and serial molester. LOL

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What I don't understand is this:

Numerous women have reported that they have been sexually assaulted by Ahnold.

Why isn't the GOP insisting on a full, independent investigation and articles of impeachment?

[Kaylore]

About your sig Kaylor. That's really going out on a limb to say you're a Champ Bailey homer. That's kind of like me saying I'm a Shaq homer. Doesn't make much sense.

Ok, I can change it to someone more "untried". I just picked him because I got sick of hearing how it was a bad trade.

[watermock]

Champ Bailey is a great player.

Was he worth 63 million and Clinton Portis, who could break a game on a single touch?

You can play around Bailey. Portis was right in your face.

I understand the trade, but it's not like there haven't been questionable decisions in the past. We will see if it our line or not this year won't we.

I hope Tatum Bell rips off a 30 yarder next monday.

[Hogan11]

Ok, I can change it to someone more "untried". I just picked him because I got sick of hearing how it was a bad trade.

I wouldn't have changed it.

[watermock]

Wenn ich je Sie wieder Hogan sehe, werde ich Sie durch die Bälle hängen, bis ich mein Geld zurück erhalte.

[Hogan11]

Wenn ich je Sie wieder Hogan sehe, werde ich Sie durch die Bälle hängen, bis ich mein Geld zurück erhalte.

translation: "If I see ever you again Hogan, I become would bark hang you through that until I receive my money back."

Yeah....the translator works just peachy at times, doesn't it?

[watermock]

I won't get tired of this for awhile. I'm in tears.