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Exile_In_SJ
08-23-2004, 12:59 PM
http://www.investors.com/editorial/issues.asp?v=8/23


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Monday, August 23, 2004

We Are Waiting
Campaign '04: John Kerry says he'll fight claims he lied about or exaggerated his service in Vietnam. The best way to fight such charges would be to stop calling people names and start providing some answers.

He'll have to show that the charges by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are false. That's a tall order. The allegations are numerous, well documented and quite serious.

In general, they insist that Kerry has consistently overstated his heroism, that many accounts of his service in Vietnam are not true and that he has slandered his fellow veterans by claiming they were guilty of widespread war crimes and atrocities.

It's too bad Kerry has responded to these charges — and particularly those raised in the book "Unfit for Command" by former Swift boat commander John O'Neill — by vowing to "attack."

So far, his "attack" seems to be of the political and personal kind, with Kerry and his followers claiming that O'Neill, and the 250 or so Swift boat vets who back him, are Republican Party shills.

On Friday, Kerry filed a legal complaint about O'Neill's group.

But that won't do. Only answers will. The presidency of the United States is too important to give to someone with something to hide. Questions about Kerry's fitness to be commander in chief won't go away if he simply stonewalls and makes baseless charges of political bias.

After all, it was Kerry himself — with the smart salute and "reporting for duty" opening of his convention speech — who made his military service the keystone of his campaign. And it is Kerry who has repeatedly compared himself favorably with President Bush on that score.

In so doing, he's all but ignored his undistinguished 20-year career in the U.S. Senate and his decade as an anti-war activist.

Fair enough. Now we have questions about Vietnam. Such as:

• Did Kerry commit war atrocities? This charge would seem unduly harsh to level at someone who fought in a war more than three decades ago — except for the fact that he himself made it.

In a 1971 appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press," Kerry said: "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed . . ."

Earlier that year, Kerry claimed his now-beloved "band of brothers" were broadly guilty of war crimes as well.

During the infamous "Winter Soldier Investigation" by anti-war activists in early 1971, Kerry and his pals described a shocking array of atrocities that U.S. troops routinely committed: arson, rape, torture, murder, burning of villages, all part of official policy.

This, more than anything, explains the still-burning ire of his former comrades in arms.

As O'Neill wrote: "Millions of Vietnam veterans will never forget Kerry's spinning of lies — lies so damaging to his comrades but so profitable to himself."

Kerry never provided evidence that such war crimes were official policy or routine. But he — and O'Neill — have raised questions about his own behavior in Vietnam.

• Did Kerry lie about "Christmas in Cambodia"? This is a story Kerry has repeated over and over as explanation for his later metamorphosis from decorated hero into staunch anti-war activist.

"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas," Kerry wrote in the Boston Herald in October 1979. "The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."

A couple of problems. Nixon wasn't president on Christmas Eve 1968. Lyndon Johnson was. In fact, official records of his service show Kerry was never in Cambodia — as his campaign now concedes.

Subsequent "clarifications" — saying Kerry in ensuing months served as a kind of ferry master for Green Berets, CIA agents and Navy Seals into Cambodia — likewise have run afoul of the truth. There simply is no evidence for it.

Yet, on the floor of the Senate, Kerry said the experience was "seared — seared" into his memory.

Bad memory, or just a lie? People deserve an explanation.

• Kerry's medals. Kerry returned from his 4 1/2 month stint in Vietnam with three Purple Hearts for wounds, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star for gallantry.

But some of those who served with him cast doubt on how he earned his medals — and whether he deserved them. Harsh charges, to be sure. O'Neill's book, however, raises serious evidence to support the charges. Kerry must respond.

Specifically, O'Neill alleges Kerry got his first and third Purple Hearts for mishandling grenades — in one case, for setting off one too close to his boat, and in the other, throwing a grenade into a rice bin. In neither case was he seriously wounded, says O'Neill.

Questions abound, too, about his Bronze Star, received for pulling special forces Lt. Jim Rassman out of the water under hostile fire, and his Silver Star, given after Kerry beached his boat in the face of an ambush and killed an enemy soldier.

In the first case, O'Neill and others charge, Kerry was fleeing action when he picked up Rassman. In the second case, the soldier was a "skinny kid" who was wounded and running away.

We'd like to know — and suspect the American people would, too.

You may be wondering: Why raise these questions now, in the heat of a campaign? Sadly, the major media have all but ignored questions of Kerry's record. They've been too busy looking for scandal in Bush's past and, more recently, attacking O'Neill and anyone else who dares question Kerry's glowing accounts of his service.

The bias is pervasive. As the Media Research Center, a media watchdog, pointed out, ABC, CBS and NBC did 75 stories on charges Bush was "AWOL" from the National Guard. They did nine on claims Kerry fibbed about his war record. Biased might be too kind a description.

The major media in this country are overwhelmingly liberal and refuse to ask the questions that need to be asked. They do their viewers and readers — and Kerry for that matter — a disservice.

If Kerry thinks he's being slandered, he should answer with facts —not with insults, threats and lawsuits.

We have questions, senator. We're ready for your answers.

Related Resources:

Exile_In_SJ
08-23-2004, 01:07 PM
Now there'll be people come onto this thread and try and derail it with questions about Bush. This thread is about questions that Kerry needs to address. If you want Bush, start a Bush thread.

Kerry needs to answer the questions and not just attack the messenger. Like Blueflame had indelibly SEARED into my memory, just bcause you don'tlike the messenger, 2 + 2 does still equal 4 (to paraphrase her)

And answer why it's okay for his 527s to attack Bush and to have a nototiaus liar sit in the presidential box next to Jimmah Carter, and yet it's not okay for the other side to try and do the same thing?

One big question I have for Kerry is, why can he dish it out, but can't take it? He and his minions questions Bush's service in an offhand way, yet he can't take anyone questioning his?

Exile_In_SJ
08-23-2004, 01:13 PM
Connections between Kerry, the DNC and the 527s

Southern Bronco
08-23-2004, 01:42 PM
The truth according to the Kerry Kool-Aid Krowd: They are all liars and Kerry's service record in Viet Nam is above reproach. 527's that attack Bush are OK, but not 527's that attack Kerry. It's all a smear campaign orchestrated by Karl Rove. Bush=Hitler! No Blood for Oil! My fingers are in my ears and I can't hear you! NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA!!!

Rohirrim
08-23-2004, 01:52 PM
Although I'd love to take apart this tripe point for point, it's a waste of time. The charges by the Swiftliars are under heavy questioning. Read the Washington Post's recent in depth article which actually attempts to get at the truth. Also, more vets are now coming forward and the Swiftliar's charges are getting weaker and weaker. The gunner on the boat right behind Kerry's (who was offered a Swiftliar's spot and declined) testifies that they were indeed under fire from both sides of the bank. Thurlow's after incident report notes 3 thirty cal. holes in his boat. I could go on, but it would be a waste of my time. Those who live in slime don't respond to facts.

Oh, and BTW, the boat commander who accompanied Kerry when he shot the VC said he didn't know what O'Neill was talking about - saying it was "some kid" that Kerry shot. He said it was a VC, dressed like all the VC he'd ever seen and carrying a rocket launcher. Of course, O'Neill wasn't even there, so any reasonable person would believe him first - after all, it's not like he has some personal axe to grind.

Slimeballs.

Southern Bronco
08-23-2004, 02:00 PM
And the first of the KKK reports for duty. Nice going Ro. Be sure to wash your hands before eating.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-23-2004, 02:03 PM
Slimeballs.
The sad thing is that the president of the country wants to be re-elected so bad, that he takes part in this smear conspiracy and some people approve of that.

bendog
08-23-2004, 02:14 PM
LBJ lied/slimed Goldwater ... and we got vietnam, not incidentally.

Poppy slimed Dukakass with Willie Horton ... race card.

I'm pretty cynical about politics, but it's really sickening to see viet vets turn on one of their own ... even if they didn't like how the N.Viets used what he said in winter soldier. Those guys got the shaft from both parties, and they're being used as tools ... and volunteering for the job. amazing.

orangeatheist
08-23-2004, 02:20 PM
The sad thing is that the president of the country wants to re-elected so bad, that he takes part in this smear conspiracy and some people approve of that.

Hey, Slug, what part of Exile's request did you not understand?

Now there'll be people come onto this thread and try and derail it with questions about Bush. This thread is about questions that Kerry needs to address. If you want Bush, start a Bush thread.

orangeatheist
08-23-2004, 02:22 PM
Although I'd love to take apart this tripe point for point, it's a waste of time...

Why is it a "waste of time"?

BroncoInferno
08-23-2004, 02:31 PM
Are you a Bush-supporter, OA? Just curious. I would have thought Bush's pandering to the far Christian right would turn you off.

Bronco_Beerslug
08-23-2004, 02:33 PM
Hey, Slug, what part of Exile's request did you not understand?
Most of it since it has been answered over and over.
By the way SJ are you going to answer my question?
If you forgot what it was I'll post it here for you again.


Were you ever in Country? Just wondering because you seem to post like you know what was going on over there?

Southern Bronco
08-23-2004, 02:34 PM
LBJ lied/slimed Goldwater ... and we got vietnam, not incidentally.

Poppy slimed Dukakass with Willie Horton ... race card.



Actually, it was AL Gore's campaign that found and used Willie Horton. Poppy's minions just ran with it after Gore imploded.

OrangeDoofus
08-23-2004, 03:11 PM
The allegations are numerous, well documented and quite serious.

They're not well-documented at all. The documents all support Kerry's version of events. As for the various people involved with SBVT, I'll just cut and paste what I wrote in another thread:


Larry Thurlow claims that Kerry's Bronze Star is invalid because there no enemy fire that day. But Thurlow himself was also awarded a Bronze Star for the same engagement, and according to Thurlow's Bronze Star citation (signed by Admiral Zumwalt) "... all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks...." So either Thurlow is lying, or he himself is holding on to a Bronze Star that he doesn't deserve.
Roy Hoffman said in 2003 that "I am not going to say anything negative about him — he's a good man." but now says that "John Kerry has not been honest."
Adrian Lonsdale in 1996 said Kerry was "among the finest of those Swift boat drivers" but who says that he "lacks the capacity to lead."
George Elliot said in 1996 that "the fact that he chased an armed enemy down is something not to be looked down upon, but it was an act of courage." Now he's appearing in the commercial saying "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
And then of course we have Dr. Louis Letson who says "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury" even though Letson's name doesn't appear anywhere on Kerry's medical records.


So, in addition to the fact that the SBVs have no documentary evidence to support their claims, many of them are now contradicting the official records and even their own past statements.

Why on Earth does Kerry need to knock down an argument that can't even stand on its own to begin with?

errand
08-23-2004, 04:20 PM
Subsequent "clarifications" — saying Kerry in ensuing months served as a kind of ferry master for Green Berets, CIA agents and Navy Seals into Cambodia — likewise have run afoul of the truth. There simply is no evidence for it.
:


....I think he got this crapola from Martin Sheen's copy of "Apocolypse Now" script lying around at one of those elitist dinner parties

azbronco
08-23-2004, 04:34 PM
Although I'd love to take apart this tripe point for point, it's a waste of time. The charges by the Swiftliars are under heavy questioning. Read the Washington Post's recent in depth article which actually attempts to get at the truth. Also, more vets are now coming forward and the Swiftliar's charges are getting weaker and weaker. The gunner on the boat right behind Kerry's (who was offered a Swiftliar's spot and declined) testifies that they were indeed under fire from both sides of the bank. Thurlow's after incident report notes 3 thirty cal. holes in his boat. I could go on, but it would be a waste of my time. Those who live in slime don't respond to facts.

Oh, and BTW, the boat commander who accompanied Kerry when he shot the VC said he didn't know what O'Neill was talking about - saying it was "some kid" that Kerry shot. He said it was a VC, dressed like all the VC he'd ever seen and carrying a rocket launcher. Of course, O'Neill wasn't even there, so any reasonable person would believe him first - after all, it's not like he has some personal axe to grind.

Slimeballs.

The whole lefty machine is in a nose dive over the truth here. How freakin hilarious.

Deflect and slant on lefties.

Rohirrim
08-23-2004, 06:38 PM
Why is it a "waste of time"?

AZBronco's response is a perfect example of why debate is pointless. What do they say about war? That truth is the first casualty. Same with American politics. The damage has been done to Kerry - and truth has nothing to do with it. I keep noticing how happy the neocons on this board are about this smear attack - pointing out with glee how cheap it was and how effective. Look how happy Bush's mouthpiece McClellan is - he can barely contain his smirk as he keeps reminding us how Bush "honors Kerry's service." Like Karl Rove, they couldn't care less where the truth lies, only that the damage is done. Same with Cleland. Same with McCain. If the lie works, what's the problem? The ends justify the means. And this from the party of "American values." I expect Bush will now posture himself as the one taking the "high road" against the malicious attacks of these rotten 527s.

So, it's pointless to get to the truth of the matter. We live in the "Survivor" society now. It doesn't really matter what strategy you use to get to the winner's circle - just that you get there. And then, once you're victorious, you'll have plenty of time to tell everyone how you stand up for "values" like patriotism and fair play and honor.

errand
08-23-2004, 07:29 PM
I'm pretty cynical about politics, but it's really sickening to see viet vets turn on one of their own ... .

Yeah...imagine how they felt in '71-'72 when "one of their own" turned on them?

Bronco_Beerslug
08-23-2004, 07:58 PM
Yeah...imagine how they felt in '71-'72 when "one of their own" turned on them?
Thousands of veterans spoke out against Vietnam. That is one of the major reasons that conflict was ended as soon as it was saving untold American lives.

Blueflame
08-23-2004, 07:59 PM
Yeah...imagine how they felt in '71-'72 when "one of their own" turned on them?

Speaking of '71-'72, wouldn't one reasonably think that a highly-motivated Nixon would have found any dirt that was verifiable during O'Neill's first smear campaign back then?

Rohirrim
08-24-2004, 06:00 AM
Speaking of '71-'72, wouldn't one reasonably think that a highly-motivated Nixon would have found any dirt that was verifiable during O'Neill's first smear campaign back then?

Oliphant of the Boston Globe reported that Nixon gave the job to the Undersecretary of the Navy at that time, John Warner, to dig up any dirt on Kerry. Of course, he came up with nothing but a sterling service record. How odd that the Swiftliars thought there was a coward in charge of one of the boats they had to go into combat with every day, a commander who they believed was guilty of numerous dereliction of duty infractions, and yet they kept putting those glowing reports on that commander into the naval record. Fortunately, they came to their senses 35 years later when Karl Rove started handing out the bucks.

football idiot
08-25-2004, 07:50 AM
Personally I like the theory that they saw this glory-hound for what he was, and figured out a way to send him home quick. let him type up all the reports, making himself out to be a hero, and make sure he gets 3 purple hearts quick, so he can go home as soon as possible.

a silver star for beaching his boat and shooting some kid in the back? oh yeah, he 'had a rocket launcher'. even though he was wounded and running for his life, I'm sure he took his 'rocket launcher' with him. hey, it says so on the official report that Kerry typed up himself....

Rohirrim
08-25-2004, 08:25 AM
Personally I like the theory that they saw this glory-hound for what he was, and figured out a way to send him home quick. let him type up all the reports, making himself out to be a hero, and make sure he gets 3 purple hearts quick, so he can go home as soon as possible.

a silver star for beaching his boat and shooting some kid in the back? oh yeah, he 'had a rocket launcher'. even though he was wounded and running for his life, I'm sure he took his 'rocket launcher' with him. hey, it says so on the official report that Kerry typed up himself....

Well, I guess you have that 20/20 vision through your crystal ball and can tell us all what happened. OOPS. A Mr. Rood, editor of the Chicago Tribune, came forward and guess what? He was the commander of the other boat that accompanied Kerry that day. He disagrees with your "vision" of events, although I did like O'Neill's little speech about a "wounded teenager in a loin-cloth" and how Kerry then "shot the kid in the back." What a shame that O'Neill wasn't there, and you weren't there - your descriptions of events are so much more poetic, and sensitive.

The guy who was there, and saw the whole thing, says that O'Neill is a liar, and I guess that makes you a liar too.