Not destroyed after all: Bush's military records fail to dispel AWOL Charges

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5761856

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Some of President Bush's missing Air National Guard records during the Vietnam War years, previously said to be destroyed, turned up on Friday but offered no new evidence to dispel charges by Democrats that he was absent without leave.

His whereabouts during his service as a pilot in the Texas Air National Guard in the United States during the Vietnam War have become an election-year issue. Bush's Democratic presidential challenger, John Kerry, is a decorated Vietnam War veteran.

The Pentagon, which had announced two weeks ago that the payroll records had been accidentally destroyed, blamed a clerical error for previous failure to find them.

In May 1972, Bush moved to Alabama to work on a political campaign and, he has said, to perform his Guard service there for a year. But other Guard officers have said they have no recollection of ever seeing him there.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/g-i-blow.jpg

[watermock]

Your still trying to play games with files 30 years old.

Noone has given Bush a pass about this, your just a hysterical biatch full of assumptions. Noone ever said Bush didn't sidestep a few things. It's your intransigent idiotcy that makes it out to AWOL.

Last time I checked he was honorably discharged. He has allready talked about some of his transgresions THIRTY YEARS AGO but Kerry's behaviour in 1971 is skipped. It was a difficult time in vietnam under the idiot LBJ.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/mmail-buddy.jpg

Noone ever said Bush didn't sidestep a few things.

Yo Foster Brooks:

In the military, "sidestepping a few things" (i.e., one's duty/service commitments) is called "desertion."

It's your intransigent idiotcy that makes it out to AWOL.

What part of the following don't you understand, jerkoff?

"Some of President Bush's missing Air National Guard records during the Vietnam War years, previously said to be destroyed, turned up on Friday but offered no new evidence to dispel charges by Democrats that he was absent without leave."

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5761856

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/cand-rovian.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

AWOL over thirty days is desertion. In wartime it's a capitol offense punishable by death.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I have always found it to be surpassingly strange that Bush, who, by all accounts was a social live wire who made it a point to know every pledge in his frat, who was always such a famous glad-hander, backslapper, high-profile socializer, and cutesy-nicknaming towel-snapper is completely an unknown phantom in the '72 Alabama Nat'l Guard Unit. Nobody but nobody recollects him. Weird, no ?

We're supposed to believe that this guy, the young, brash Dubya, screaming for attention and a loudmouth souse to boot, never caused a ripple in the memory pool of the entire roster of the '72 Alabama National Guard?

This is totally out of character according to every description of Bush I've ever seen.

I wonder how George W. Bush, the hard drinking, extroverted, wise-cracking, arrogant, Yale-educated, well-connected, delinquent jet pilot could possibly fall completely through the cracks of everybody's memory... In friggin Alabama, no less, where a guy like Bush would have to stand out in ultra-high resolution.

If Bush had spent even a week at that unit, then you bet your ass somebody'd have to remember him. He'd stick out like a three-headed space alien.

That just ain't a little hard to swallow--that is monu-frickin-mentally unbelievable.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Add to this the vivid recollections of Dubya by several women who were young GOP volunteers in Alabama at the time.

Bush was IN FACT noticed at the time and remembered today. But by the GOP campaign workers, not his flyboy buddies.

The conclusion is inescapable: he was AWOL.

The only reason this is not a screaming-hot issue, is that "the librul media" won't touch it. In other words, a cover-up. (Remember Peter Jennings' scolding of Michael Moore for calling Bush a "deserter"?).

Compare this with the media treatment of Clinton's perfectly legal student draft deferment, and the six-year front-page howling over a failed real-estate investment which, after a $50 million investigation, proved to be perfectly legitimate.

The media is about as "librul" as Pravda was capitalist during the Soviet era.

[Blueflame]

There's also the small matter of the "bounties" offered for anyone who can definitively prove that Bush showed up for duty in Alabama, LA... first it was a veterans' organization that offered $2000; then Doonesbury cartoonist Garry Trudeau upped the ante to $10,000... to date no one has stepped up to the plate and claimed that "easy money".

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

to date no one has stepped up to the plate and claimed that "easy money".

Good point, Flame.

You'd think Gigglekill's fellow Guardsmen would be lining up by the dozens to support their fearless comrade and earn a few extra ducats at the same time.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/par-president.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Bump for the slow student. ;)

Bush's Top 10 Lies, Exaggerations And 'Obsfucations'
About His Military Service

by Nancy Skinner
co-host of "Ski & Skinner (http://wlsam.com/showdj.asp?DJID=1667)" on WLS-AM Chicago


Governor Bush has made credibility the central issue of this campaign, and makes almost daily references to the Vice President’s alleged exaggerations and lack of truthfulness. But on a subject that could not be more important for his presidential candidacy, his own military service, the record shows that George W. Bush has exaggerated and even lied about his service. Governor Bush took a solemn oath during wartime to serve his country in the Texas Air National Guard. He did not honor that oath He walked away. And in this presidential campaign, he has made several misrepresentations about his service. A number of newspaper reports and even more accounts on Internet websites, based on Freedom Of Information Act requests of Bush’s official military record, have concluded that he completely missed at least one year of service, and may not have shown up in person for his last year. While those reports continue to be debated, the following statements by Bush and his aides are directly contradicted by the current record.
#1 Bush never showed up in Alabama Air National Guard when directly ordered to do so, after requesting a transfer to work in Alabama.
“I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at one period of time” Bush said during a campaign stop in Tuscaloosa, AL, referring to his claim that he served in the Alabama National Guard. [Dallas Morning News, 6/26/00]
"He specifically recalls pulling duty in Alabama," spokesman Dan Bartlett said of Bush. "He did his drills." Bartlett said the Republican governor showed up "several" times while in Alabama, where he transferred from his Houston Guard unit in 1972 to work for the unsuccessful Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount, a friend of Bush's father. [Washington Post 6/25/00]
The Truth
Bush left Houston May 15, 1972 and went to work on a political campaign in Alabama. His first request for a transfer on May 24 was denied because the unit was inactive. His second request on September 5 to a different unit was granted. He was issued a direct order to report on specific days to the base, which he completely ignored. The order was issued on September 15 to report to then-Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed at Dannelly Air Force base in Montgomery, AL, on the dates of “7-8 October 0730-1600, and 4-5 November 0730-1600” His orders, dated Sept. 15, 1972, said: "Lieutenant Bush should report to Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, DCO, to perform equivalent training." http://www.cis.net/~coldfeet/doc11.gif (http://www.cis.net/%7Ecoldfeet/doc11.gif)
· His Commanding Officer, William Turnipseed, says he did not show up.
"To my knowledge, he never showed up," Turnipseed said last month. [Boston Globe 5/23/00] In interviews last week, Turnipseed and his administrative officer at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, said they had no memory of Bush ever reporting. ''Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not,'' Turnipseed said. ''I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered.'' Turnipseed also reports that the then-squadron operations officer of the Alabama Guard also has no recollection of having seen Bush.(The New Republic 10/16/2000)
“Furthermore, a spokesman for the Alabama National Guard estimates there were 600 to 700 members in the unit Bush was supposed to have served with in 1972. But none of these men has ever come forward to say he remembers Bush, and Bush has not named a single one of them.”(The New Republic 10/16/2000)
· There is no official National Guard record for George W. Bush’s service in Alabama.
“His official discharge records do not include any service after May 15 of 1972. Indeed, Bush's discharge papers list his service and duty station for each of his first four years in the Air Guard. But there is no record of training listed after May 1972, and no mention of any service in Alabama. On that discharge form, Lloyd (Albert Lloyd Jr., a retired colonel who was the Texas Air Guard's personnel director from 1969 to 1995 and was hired by the Bush campaign to make sense of the governor's military records) said, ''there should have been an entry for the period between May 1972 and May 1973.'' Said Lloyd, ''It appeared he had a bad year. He might have lost interest, since he knew he was getting out.'' [Boston Globe 5/23/00]
· No one in the Alabama National Guard ever saw him.
“A spokesman for the Alabama National Guard estimates there were 600 to 700 members in the unit Bush was supposed to have served with in 1972. But none of these men has ever come forward to say he remembers Bush, and Bush has not named a single one of them.” (The New Republic 10/16/2000)
Even though members of the Alabama Air National Guard have offered $1000 to anyone who can remember serving with Bush, no one has come forward to corroborate his service, with the exception of an old girlfriend who says she remembers him saying he was going, but does not have any other evidence, essentially making it her word against Bush’s commanding officers’ and a lack of official documents as noted above.
· Even the Bush campaign claims that he only showed up on a single day in November and made up missed weekends, not contesting the fact that he defied direct orders to appear on the dates stated above.
“National Guard records provided by the Guard and by the Bush campaign indicate he did serve on Nov. 29, 1972, after the election. These records also show a gap in service from that time to the previous May. Mr. Bush says he made up for the lost time in subsequent months, and guard records show he received credit for having performed all the required service.” [NYT 7/22/00]
The evidence to support Bush’s service on November 29, 1972 is highly suspect for the following reasons:
- The document offered to dispute the claim by his commanding officers in Alabama is a single torn document that does not have Bush’s name on it, is undated and unsigned. The document was “discovered” in 1998 by the man Bush hired to investigate his record, Al Loyd, and added to the official record. This late addition to the official record also raises additional chain of command issues.
- There are two different versions of the document. The one ‘discovered’ by Mr. Loyd and given to George Magazine has handwritten annotations. The other version came from Mr. Bush’s official record through a FOIA request by Martin Heldt. http://www.cis.net/~coldfeet/doc99.gif (http://www.cis.net/%7Ecoldfeet/doc99.gif) The FOIA version did not have any annotations.
- The document comes from the Texas National Guard Archives according to the numbering in the right hand corner of the document, even though duty reports were localized at the time, meaning his service in Alabama would not have been recorded by the Texas Air National Guard.
#2 Bush didn’t return to Ellington Air Force Base after his temporary transfer as required.
A Bush spokesman, Dan Bartlett, said after talking with the governor that Bush recalls performing some duty in Alabama and ''recalls coming back to Houston and doing [Guard] duty, though he does not recall if it was on a consistent basis.''
Noting that Bush, by that point, was no longer flying, Bartlett added, ''It's possible his presence and role became secondary.'' [Boston Globe 5/23/00]
The Truth
· According to his annual evaluation by his commanding officers, he may have been in Houston but he was not at the base.
“Cleared this base 15 May 1972” According to Lieutenant Colonel William Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Killian in Bush’s annual evaluation , Ellis Air Force Base, Houston. The report makes clear that Bush had “not been observed ” at his Texas unit “during the period of this report” – May 1972-April 1973.” [Boston Globe 5/23/00]
· Even his commanding officer, whom he called a “friend” did not know where he was.
“Asked about that declaration, campaign spokesman Bartlett said Bush told him that since he was no longer flying, he was doing ''odds and ends'' under different supervisors whose names he could not recall. But retired colonel Martin, the unit's former administrative officer, said he too thought Bush had been in Alabama for that entire year. Harris and Killian, he said, would have known if Bush returned to duty at Ellington. And Bush, in his autobiography, identifies the late colonel Killian as a friend, making it even more likely that Killian knew where Bush was.” [Boston Globe 5/23/00]
#3 He quit flying in Texas because his plane was replaced.
[B] In his autobiography, Mr. Bush explains that when he applied to Harvard Business School in 1972, “I was almost finished with my commitment in the Air National Guard, and was no longer flying because the F102 jet I has trained in was being replaced by a different fighter.”
The Truth

· “His unit continued to fly the F-102 until 1974 “If he had come back to Houston, I would have kept him flying the 102 until he got out” said retired Major Bobby W. Hodges, “But I don’t remember him coming back at all”’.
· “Lieutenant Bush, to be sure, had gone off flying status when he went to Alabama. But had he returned to his unit in November 1972, there would have been no barrier to him flying again, except passing a flight physical. Although the F-102 was being phased out, his unit's records show that Guard pilots logged thousands of hours in the F-102 in 1973.”[Boston Globe 5/23/00]
· His commitment was through May of 1974. (An exaggeration?)
#4 He wasn’t flying in Alabama because they had different planes.
[B] On June 26^th this report appeared in the Dallas Morning News. “Campaigning Friday in Tuscaloosa, Ala., Bush was asked about his 1972 service in that state. "I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at one period of time," he said. "I made up some missed weekends." "I can't remember what I did, but I wasn't flying because they didn't have the same airplanes. I fulfilled my obligations."
The Truth

· He was no longer flying because he had been suspended in August of 1972 for failure to “accomplish” a required medical exam. [Boston Globe, 5/23/00] (Suspension document at http://www.cis.net/~coldfeet/grounded.gif)
· Bush was suspended from flying on August 1, 1972, prior to his request for the transfer to the187th at Montgomery Alabama, September 5, 1972. Bush did not receive permission until September 15, which was close to six weeks after his suspension from flying.
· Another question is raised by the fact that he cannot remember what he did for the Air National Guard in Alabama, despite the fact that 28 years later he still remembers the specifics of his work there on the campaign of William Blount as cited in a July 22, 2000 New York Times article. “In an interview 28 years later, Mr. Bush remembered the numbers. "We all teamed together and helped Red get about 36 percent of the vote," he said with a short laugh, "in spite of the fact that Nixon had gotten 72 percent of the vote. The ticket-splitting was phenomenal."”
#5 Three different stories on why he was suspended.
Story #1) "Bush's campaign aides have said he did not take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston." [Boston Globe 5/23/00].
The Truth

· In fact as the Boston Globe goes on to state "flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and some were assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living."
Story #2) Then in June, campaign officials told the London Times Bush did not technically need to take his flight physical. "As he was not flying, there was no reason for him to take the flight physical exam," according to campaign spokesman Don Bartlett.
· Any suggestion that he had simply decided to “give up flying” prior to his suspension, with two years remaining on his commitment and nearly one million dollars (in real terms) invested in his training is not plausible. It is not up to an Air National Guard pilot to decide whether or not he “intends” to fly.
· “If he had come back to Houston, I would have kept him flying the 102 until he got out” said retired Major Bobby W. Hodges [Boston Glove 5/23/00]
Story #3) In the same article, Bush campaign spokesman Dan Bartlett told the newspaper that Bush was aware back then that he would be suspended for missing his medical exam, but had no choice because he had applied for a transfer from Houston to Alabama and his paperwork hadn't caught up with him. "It was just a question of following the bureaucratic procedure of the time," Bartlett said. "He knew the suspension would have to take place."
· The exam was required to be completed in the three months preceding his birthday, July 6, 1972. A three month window seems adequate to avoid being suspended from flying.
So which is it: his family physician, he didn’t have to take the exam, or a bureaucratic snafu?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

#6 Bush denied strings were pulled to get him in the Texas Air National Guard.
“I can just tell you, from my perspective, I never asked for, I don't believe I received special treatment," Bush told reporters.” [DMN 9/08/99]
The Truth
· “Former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes confirmed Monday that he recommended Gov. George W. Bush for a slot in the Texas Air National Guard during the height of the Vietnam War, at the request of a Bush family friend. Mr. Barnes' account came in a written statement that was released after he testified in a deposition stemming from a federal lawsuit.’ [DMN 9/28/99]
· “The statement by Mr. Barnes also confirmed that he met a year ago with a top Bush adviser to discuss the Guard matter. As reported in The News, Mr. Bush sent a note thanking Mr. Barnes for his help in rebutting rumors that Mr. Bush's father helped his son find a Guard slot, the statement confirmed.” [DMN 9/08/99]
· "Mr. Barnes was contacted by [Houston businessman] Sid Adger and asked to recommend George W. Bush for a pilot position with the Air National Guard," Mr. Barnes' statement said. "Barnes called Gen. [James] Rose and did so." [DMN 9/28/00]
"No Bush ever asked Sid Adger to help," the governor said.[DMN 9/28/00]
· “A spokeswoman for former President George Bush confirmed the elder Bush's friendship with Mr. Adger but said he was "almost positive" he never talked to Mr. Adger - or anyone else - about getting his son into the Guard. "He said he is fairly certain - I mean he doesn't remember everything that happened in the 1960s - but he said he and Sid Adger never, ever talked about George W. and the Texas Air National Guard," said Jean Becker, a spokeswoman for the former president. "President Bush knew Sid Adger well," Ms. Becker said. "He loved him."’ [DMN 9/08/99]
· “When Bush was admitted into the Guard in 1968, 100,000 other men were on waiting lists around the country, hoping to win admission to similar units. The Guard was popular because those units were rarely sent to Vietnam.” [LAT 7/4/99]
#7 Bush said the Texas Air National Guard was short on pilots.
"They were looking for pilots, and I was honored to serve.", Governor Bush told the Dallas Morning News. [DMN9/08/99]
The Truth
· “But Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, said that records do not show a pilot shortage in the Guard squadron at the time. Hail, who reviewed the unit's personnel records for a special Guard museum display on Gov. Bush's service, said Bush's unit had 27 pilots at the time he began applying. While that number was two short of its authorized strength, the unit had two other pilots who were in training and another awaiting a transfer. There was no apparent need to fast-track applicants, he said.” [LAT 7/4/99]


· “The Texas Air Guard had about 900 slots for pilots, air and ground crew members, supervisors, technicians and support staff. Sgt. Donald Dean Barnhart, who still serves in the Guard, said that he kept a waiting list of about 150 applicants' names. He said it took up to a year and a half for one name to move to the top of the list. "Quite a few gentlemen were wanting to get in," he recalled. For Bush, there was no wait. He met with commander Staudt in his Houston office and made his application--all before his graduation in June.” [LAT, 7/4/99]


“Beckwith, Bush's spokesman, painted a different picture. He said that the Guard needed pilots at the time and Bush was available. "A lot of people weren't qualified" or willing to fly, he said, so special commissions were offered to those willing to undergo the extra training required.”
[LAT 7/4/99]


· “But Shoemake, who also served as a chief of personnel in the Texas Guard from 1972 to 1980, remembers no pilot shortage. "We had so many people coming in who were super-qualified," he said.” [LAT 7/4/99]


· “Records from his [Bush’s] military file show that in January 1968, after inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an Air Force recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed the test required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score on the pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers.” [7/4/99]
#8 There was no special deal when he received a direct appointment to second lieutenant right after basic training, with no qualifications.

“Officials in Bush's presidential campaign denied last week that he was treated differently from other recruits. "Our information is there was absolutely no special deal," said spokesman David Beckwith.” [LAT 7/4/99]
“He [Commander Staudt] recommended Bush for a direct appointment--a special process that would allow the young recruit to become a second lieutenant right out of basic training without having to go through the rigors of officer candidate school. The process also cleared the way for a slot in pilot training school.” [LAT, 7/4/99]
The Truth

· “But Charles C. Shoemake, an Air Force veteran who later joined the Texas Air National Guard, eventually retiring as a full colonel, said that direct appointments were rare and hard to get, and required extensive credentials. "I went from master sergeant to first lieutenant based on my three years in college and 15 years as a noncommissioned officer. Then I got considered for a direct appointment." Even then, he said, "I didn't know whether I was going to get into pilot training."” [LAT 7/4/99]
· “As for a direct commission for someone of Bush's limited qualifications, Hail said, "I've never heard of that. Generally they did that for doctors only, mostly because we needed extra flight surgeons."” [LAT 7/4/99]
#9 As evidence he wasn't dodging combat, Mr. Bush has pointed to his efforts to try to volunteer for a program that rotated Guard pilots to Vietnam, although he wasn't called. [DMN 7/4/99]
The Truth

· “Mr. Bush's application for the Guard included a box to be checked specifying whether he did or did not volunteer for overseas duty. His includes a check mark in the box not wanting to volunteer for such an assignment.” [DMN 7/4/99]
#10 In Bush’s 1999 autobiography, A Charge to Keep, Mr. Bush says that after completing flight training in June 1970, “I continued flying with my unit for the next several years”.
The Truth

· “But 22 months after finishing his training, and with two years left on his six-year commitment, Bush gave up flying - for good, it would turn out”. [Boston Globe, 5/23/00]
Several Years or 22 months – an exaggeration? Perhaps, the bigger question is why did he quit flying?
* The New York Times reports that Bush has had problems articulating words recently, using "terriers" instead of "tariffs and trade barriers," "obsfucate" in place of "obfuscate," and "post-cold world" rather than "post-Cold War world." [Bruni, New York Times, 1/8/00]

[Hotrod]

I fully blame our corrupt system for the mess that were in today. I still would not vote for Kerry.

This election cycle is no better. As of today none of the "top" 3 deserve my vote.

[Hotrod]

I will add that looking back I would reconsider my not voting for Gore.

[Spider]

ROFL! Dan Rather was right .......

[spdirty]

Some of you guys are gonna have severe withdrawal/depression issues in 11 months.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Some of you guys are gonna have severe withdrawal/depression issues in 11 months.

Some of you guys are going to be praying that Americans have short memories in nine months.

BTW, do you think it's only going to take 11 months to repair the damages done by the court-appointed pinhead?

[spdirty]

Some of you guys are going to be praying that Americans have short memories in nine months.

I'm not voting for McCain. Unless a miracle happens and he puts a Romney or Thompson up there as his RM.


BTW, do you think it's only going to take 11 months to repair the damages done by the court-appointed pinhead?

You not all there tonight? OK, what happens in 11 months?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You not all there tonight? OK, what happens in 11 months?

I got it the first time around.

Are you suggesting that the damage Bush has done will not be felt (or discussed) beyond the end of his time in office?

We're talking about a guy who is arguably the worst president in American history here.

[orinjkrush]

just goes to show that the elite ruling class operates with different legal, ethical and moral standards than the rest of us poor schmucks. doesn't matter if it the dubya, Teddy Chappaquiddick, OJ, Clitton, or AHHnold. they just dont have to worry about the rules. ooops our rules.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

just goes to show that the elite ruling class operates with different legal, ethical and moral standards than the rest of us poor schmucks. doesn't matter if it the dubya, Teddy Chappaquiddick, OJ, Clitton, or AHHnold. they just dont have to worry about the rules. ooops our rules.

But according to his supporters here on the Mane, Bush hasn't broken any rules.

;)

[orinjkrush]

oh geez. bush has broken as many as clintron.
the principle of relative filth.

[Spider]

oh geez. bush has broken as many as clintron.
the principle of relative filth.

Clinton was a dfraft dodger , not a deserter ....... Huge difference ....I can respect a man that takes a stand if I agree or not .... I cant abide someone that makes a commitment , then turn tail and runs cause the commitment gets in the way .........

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Clinton was a dfraft dodger , not a deserter ....... Huge difference ....I can respect a man that takes a stand if I agree or not .... I cant abide someone that makes a commitment , then turn tail and runs cause the commitment gets in the way .........Uh, Clinton was in the draft lottery.

[Spider]

Uh, Clinton was in the draft lottery.

uh .........
August 19, 1964 - Clinton registers for the draft
--[Washington Post Sep 13 92]
September 1964 - Clinton, age 18, enters Georgetown University
--[The Comeback Kid, CF Allen and J Portis, p. 20]
November 17, 1964- Clinton is classified 2-S (student deferment). This will shield him from the draft throughout his undergraduate years.
---[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
February 16, 1968 - "The Johnson administration unexpectedly abolished graduate deferments."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
March 20, 1968 - Clinton, age 21, is classified 1-A, eligible for induction, as he nears graduation from Georgetown.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
Comment: Bill Clinton was the only man of his prime draft age classified1-A by that draft board in 1968 whose pre-induction physical examination was put off for 10.5 months. This delay was more than twice as long as anyone else and more than five times longer than most area men of comparable eligibility.
--[Los Angeles Times Sep 02 92]
Summer 1968 - Political and family influence keeps Clinton out of the draft. Robert Corrado -- the only surviving Hot Springs draft board member from that period -- concluded that Clinton's draft statement (the long delays) was the result of "some form of preferential treatment." According to the Times, "Corrado recalled that the chairman of the three-man draft panel ... once held back Clinton's file with the explanation that 'we've got to give him time to go to Oxford,' where the semester began in the fall of 1968.
Corrado also complained that he was called by an aide to then Senator J. William Fulbright urging him and his fellow board members to 'give every consideration' to keep Clinton out of the draft so he could attend Oxford.
Throughout the remainder of 1968, Corrado said, Clinton's draft file was routinely held back from consideration by the full board. Consequently, although he was classified 1-A on March 20, 1968, he was not called for his physical exam until Feb 3, 1969, while he was at Oxford.
Clinton's Uncle Raymond Clinton personally lobbied Senator Fulbright, William S. Armstrong, the chairman of the three-man Hot Springs draft board, and Lt. Comdr. Trice Ellis, Jr., commanding officer of the local Navy reserve unit, to obtain a slot for Clinton in the Naval Reserve.
Clinton secured a "standard enlisted man's billet, not an officer's slot which would have required Clinton to serve two years on active duty beginning within 12 months of his acceptance." This Navy Reserve assignment was "created especially for the Bill Clinton at a time in 1968 when no existing reserve slots were open in his hometown unit."
According to the LA Times, "after about two weeks waiting for Bill Clinton to arrive for his preliminary interview and physical exam, Ellis said he called (Clinton's uncle) Raymond to inquire - 'What happened to that boy?' According to Ellis, Clinton's uncle replied - 'Don't worry about it. He won't be coming down. "It's all been taken care of.' "
--[LA Times Sep 02 92]
Fall 1968 - Because of the local draft board's continuing postponement of his pre-induction physical, Clinton is able to enroll at Oxford Univ.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
February 2, 1969 - While at Oxford, Clinton finally takes and passes a military physical examination.
--[Washington Times Sep 18 92]
April 1969 - Clinton receives induction notice from the Hot Springs AR draft board. Clinton however claims that the draft board told him to ignore the notice because it arrived after the deadline for induction.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
June-July 1969 - Clinton receives a second induction notice with a July 28 induction date and returns home.
--[Wash Times Sep 18 92]
July 11, 1969 - Clinton's friend at Oxford, Cliff Jackson, writes, "Clinton is feverishly trying to find a way to avoid entering the Army as a drafted private. I have had several of my friends in influential positions trying to pull strings on Bill's behalf."
-- [LA Times Sep 26 92]
Clinton benefited from yet another lobbying campaign in order to evade this induction notice. "Democratic presidential candidate Bill Clinton, who has said he did not pull strings to avoid the Vietnam-era draft, was able to get his Army induction notice canceled in the summer of 1969 after a lobbying effort directed at the Republican head of the state draft agency." Arrangements were made for Clinton to meet with Col. Williard A. Hawkins who "was the only person in Arkansas with authority to rescind a draft notice. ... The apparently successful appeal to Hawkins was planned while Clinton was finishing his first year as a Rhodes scholar in England. Clinton's former friend and Oxford classmate, Cliff Jackson -- now an avowed political critic of the candidate -- said it was pursued immediately upon Clinton's return to AR in early July 1969 to beat a July 28 deadline for induction."
-- [LA Times Sep 26 92]
Comment: Jackson's statement is contrary to Clinton's repeated assertions that he received no special treatment in avoiding military service. "(I) never received any unusual or favorable treatment." [LA Times Sep 02 92]
August 7, 1969 - Clinton is reclassified 1-D after he arranges to enter the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
According to Cliff Jackson, Clinton's Oxford classmate, Clinton used the ROTC program to "kill the draft notice, to avoid reporting on the July 28 induction date, which had already been postponed. And he did that by promising to serve his country in the ROTC, number one, to enroll in the law school that fall ... and he never enrolled."
--[Wash Times Sep 17 92]
Comment - Clinton's admission into the ROTC program again runs contrary to his repeated statements that he received no special treatment in order to evade military service. Col. Eugene Holmes, commander of the University of Arkansas ROTC program, said Clinton was admitted after pressure from the Hot Springs draft board and the office of Senator J. William Fulbright (D-AR).
Again, Clinton was receiving preferential treatment. In addition, records from the Army reveal that Clinton was not legally eligible for the ROTC program at that time. Army regulations required recruits to be enrolled at the university and attending classes full-time before being admitted to an ROTC program.
Fall 1969 - Clinton returns to Oxford for a second year. Clinton was supposed to be at the Arkansas Law School. However, according to Cliff Jackson, "Sen. Fulbright's office and Bill himself continued to exert tremendous pressure on poor Col. Holmes to get him [Clinton] to go back to Oxford."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
September 14, 1969 - The Arkansas Gazette, published in Little Rock, headlined a draft suspension was reportedly planned by the President.
Comment - The article, citing a source, said Selective Service reforms when implemented, would only permit the conscription of 19-year-old men. In addition, the source said "the Army would send to Vietnam only enlistees, professional soldiers, and those draftees who volunteered to go." The source contended that these reforms, combined with troop withdrawals, "would put pressure on the Congress to enact draft legislation already proposed by the President ... and set up a lottery to conscript only 19-year-old men," the Gazette reported.
From his letter to Col. Holmes, Bill Clinton said "....Finally, on Sept. 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board,......I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England.". It is very probable that Bill Clinton was in the United States and well aware of the above proposal on Sep 14, 1969. Bill Clinton was 23 years old.
September 19, 1969 - "President Nixon, facing turmoil on college campuses, suspended draft calls for November and December of 1969 and said the October call would be spread out over three months."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
The President also indicated that if the Congress did not act to establish a lottery system, he would remove by executive order the vulnerability to the draft of all men age 20 to 26.
Comment - Again, Clinton was 23 years old.
September-October 1969 - "At some point, Clinton decided to make himself eligible for the draft and said in February 1992 his stepfather had acted in his behalf to accomplish this. Newsweek, attributing the information to campaign officials, said this all happened in Oct 1969. Clinton spokesperson Betsey Wright ... said she believed it took place in September. The difference is potentially significant. ... If Clinton did not act to give up his deferment until October, he could have known he faced no liability from the draft until the following summer, that he could take his chances with the lottery and find alternative service if he got a low number."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
October 1, 1969 - "Nixon announced that anyone in graduate school could complete the full year."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
Comment - Clinton is now safe from the draft through June 1970.
October 1969 - President Nixon suspends call-up of additional draftees until a draft lottery is held in December.
October 15, 1969 - Clinton organized and led anti-war demonstrations in London.
-- [Wash Times Sep 18 92]
Comment - According to McSorley, Clinton's demonstrations "had the support of British peace organizations" such as the British Peace Council, an arm of the KGB-backed World Peace Council.
October 30, 1969 - Clinton is reclassified 1-A, eligible for induction.
--[Wash Times Sep 28 92]
Comment - "Clinton said he put himself into the draft by contacting his draft board in September or October and asking to be reclassified 1-A. ... It is not clear, however, whether that occurred at Clinton's urging or whether his failure to enroll at University of Arkansas automatically cancelled his 1-D deferment."
Clinton has never produced any evidence to substantiate his claim that he initiated his reclassification.
November 16, 1969 - Clinton organized and led anti-war demonstrations in London.
December 1, 1969 - Clinton draws #311 in the first draft lottery.
--[Wash Times Sep 18 92]
Comment - Clinton was virtually assured that he would not be drafted because of the high lottery number.
December 3, 1969 - While still in England, Clinton writes to Lt. Col. Eugene Holmes, , commander of the University of Arkansas ROTC Program and states, "From my work I came to believe that the draft system is illegitimate ... I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason - to maintain my political viability."

[Spider]

Clinton's ROTC Letter
As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5550) 7/30/93
Dear Col. Holmes,
I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing,about what I want to and ought to say.
First, I want to thank you, not only for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing that made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC.
Let me try to explain. As you know, I worked in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did.
I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations October 15 and November 16.
Interlocked with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection, for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to "participation in war in any form."
From my work, I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war, which in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation. The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake.
Individuals had to fight, if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their country and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.
Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country (i.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.
The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason only, to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years. (The society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true we are all
finished anyway.)
When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and the resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School because there is nothing else I can do. I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to teach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to begin putting what I have learned to use.
But the particulars of my personal life are not near as important to me as the principles involved. After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program itself and all I seem to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I had begun to think that I had deceived you, not by lies--there were none--but by failing to tell you all of the things I'm telling you now. I doubt I had the mental coherence to articulate them then.
Page 2.
At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self regard and self confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on September 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.
I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it with me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of the second year of my Rhodes scholarship.
And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes and the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is dis-service, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal.
Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lot to be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Colonel
Jones for me.
Merry Christmas.
Sincerely,
Bill Clinton

December 12, 1969 (approximately): Clinton visits Norway where he meets with various "peace" organizations.
December 12 (approx.) - December 31, 1969: ???
Comment: After visiting Norway with Father McSorley, Clinton's movements and activities are unknown until he arrives in Moscow on December 31, 1969. There are a lot of questions as to who Clinton met and where he went during this time period.
December 31, 1969 - January 6, 1970: Clinton travels to Moscow. He later said "relations between our two countries were pretty good then." He then described his visit as "a very friendly time, a good atmosphere."
Despite Clinton's claim that January 1970 was "a time of détente," relations between the United States and the Soviet Union were anything but warm. The Soviets were supplying the North Vietnamese with advisors and anti-aircraft weapons.
September 7, 1992: Col. Eugene Holmes, USA Ret., signs a notarized statement in which he asserts that "there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States." He later writes that "I believe that he (Clinton) purposefully deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft reclassification."
Brief Background on Colonel Holmes
Colonel Eugene Holmes is a highly decorated officer of the United States Army. He is a survivor of the Bataan Death March and three and a half years as a POW of the Japanese. He served 32 years in the army before retiring with 100% disability. His decorations include the Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars, 2 Legions of Merit, the Army Commendation Medal and many others.

During the Vietnam War, he personally inducted both his sons into the service--one for 3 years as a regular army enlisted man, and the other as a commissioned officer (after he had completed ROTC training).

Col. Homes Notarized Statement
As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93
September 7, 1992. Memorandum for Record:
Subject: Bill Clinton and the University of Arkansas ROTC Program:
There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others who avoided serving their country in the Vietnam war, they are not aspiring to be the President of the United States.
The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft,
"Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record.
Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not
have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army.
The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC
program at the University of Arkansas.
I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3,1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the
ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification.
The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the caliber, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces.
I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese,it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have
fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.
Eugene Holmes
Colonel, U.S.A., Ret.
September 1992

[Bronco_Beerslug]

uh .........

December 1, 1969 - Clinton draws #311 in the first draft lottery.
--[Wash Times Sep 18 92]
Comment - Clinton was virtually assured that he would not be drafted because of the high lottery number.
Uh, like I said.

[Kaylore]

Some of you guys are gonna have severe withdrawal/depression issues in 11 months.

No they won't. For guys like LABF this is his whole life. His entire universe rotates around hating one man. When someone is that demented they don't let that go with silly things like the topic being irrelevant. I mean look at this thread for crying out loud. :rofl:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No they won't. For guys like LABF this is his whole life. His entire universe rotates around hating one man. When someone is that demented they don't let that go with silly things like the topic being irrelevant. I mean look at this thread for crying out loud. :rofl:Why is the topic irrelevant?

[Spider]

Uh, like I said.

read the whole thing

[Kaylore]

Why is the topic irrelevant?

Because it doesn't matter what someone did thirty years ago. This is what pissed me off about the last election. It was What Kerry did during Vietnam vs. what Bush did. We have serious policy issues to discuss with current events and people were complaining that Bush didn't show up thirty years ago or that John Kerry didn't earn his medals. Did we talk about existing policy? Did we talk about alternative plans? Nope. Kerry said "go to my website", mentioned McCain's daughter was a lesbian, and talked about how he served in Vietnam. Bush spent everyone's money and accused Kerry of not earning his medals. Awesome.:flush:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Because it doesn't matter what someone did thirty years ago. This is what pissed me off about the last election. It was What Kerry did during Vietnam vs. what Bush did. We have serious policy issues to discuss with current events and people were complaining that Bush didn't show up thirty years ago or that John Kerry didn't earn his medals. Did we talk about existing policy? Did we talk about alternative plans? Nope. Kerry said "go to my website", mentioned McCain's daughter was a lesbian, and talked about how he served in Vietnam. Bush spent everyone's money and accused Kerry of not earning his medals. Awesome.:flush:Really? That's why Kerry was swiftboated for what he did 30 years ago and you mentioned it because it resonated with you and millions of other right wingers.

[Kaylore]

Really? That's why Kerry was swiftboated for what he did 30 years ago and you mentioned it because it resonated with you and millions of other right wingers.

Actually I didn't like any of that for the reasons I already said. It was an important election that was made to be about thirty year-old crap. I've talked to BroncoBuff and others around here expressing my disdain at how that entire election was run from both sides if you don't believe me.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Actually I didn't like any of that for the reasons I already said. It was an important election that was made to be about thirty year-old crap. I've talked to BroncoBuff and others around here expressing my disdain at how that entire election was run from both sides if you don't believe me.Well, you know what, existing and what the winners policy would be was talked about at great length, maybe you were too busy thinking about the negatives to concentrate on it.

[Kaylore]

Well, you know what, existing and what the winners policy would be was talked about at great length, maybe you were too busy thinking about the negatives to concentrate on it.

::) Yeah ok, Beerslug.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

::) Yeah ok, Beerslug.Well, it was Kaylore (the debates) did you watch them all?

[Kaylore]

Well, it was Kaylore (the debates) did you watch them all?

Yup. I watched the VP ones too. I especially liked the "Cheney's daughter is a Lesbian!"......pause......"Cheney's daughter is a Lesbian!" From Edwards and Kerry. It was so bizarre that even John Stewart was making fun of it.