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Sir Mawn
07-14-2004, 12:37 PM
Tough to argue against him... although he's not my pick.

McNair.

DarkHorse
07-14-2004, 12:41 PM
Where did this come from? 3rd on my list.

1)Favre
2)McNair
3)Manning

Hell, after this cocky remark (If proven true) he'll fall to the bottom, more than likely underneath Koy Detmer.

Mile High Shack
07-14-2004, 12:44 PM
Dan Patrick asked him on that hot seat thing they do on sportscenter.

Peyton said if I didn't say I was you'd say, oh c'mon Peyton, you can say yourself.

so he did say himself.

hard to argue, overall he is probably the best right now. He doesn't have the best team around him, but I'd take him over Jake.

bpc
07-14-2004, 12:45 PM
I would say he is the best pure QB in the game today... you can't deny him statistically. The only thing lacking from him in the Super Bowl championships... but hell, we really can't knock him for that because it took Elway so long to get his championships and I still thought of him as the best QB during his time. As for the comparison to McNair, I don't think its even close. Manning blows away McNairs numbers and the Colts also swept the Titans last year in head to head matchups. That was the whole reason Indy won the South division and the Titans did not.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 12:49 PM
I would say he is the best pure QB in the game today... you can't deny him statistically. The only thing lacking from him in the Super Bowl championships... but hell, we really can't knock him for that because it took Elway so long to get his championships and I still thought of him as the best QB during his time. As for the comparison to McNair, I don't think its even close. Manning blows away McNairs numbers and the Colts also swept the Titans last year in head to head matchups. That was the whole reason Indy won the South division and the Titans did not.

I agree. Peyton is the best by far. :thumbsup:

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 12:49 PM
I would say he is the best pure QB in the game today... you can't deny him statistically. The only thing lacking from him in the Super Bowl championships... but hell, we really can't knock him for that because it took Elway so long to get his championships and I still thought of him as the best QB during his time. As for the comparison to McNair, I don't think its even close. Manning blows away McNairs numbers and the Colts also swept the Titans last year in head to head matchups. That was the whole reason Indy won the South division and the Titans did not.


Would agree with you on all accounts. He has been saddled with very poor defenses most of his career so far. If Dungy can muster up a top 15 defense for the next couple years I would fully expect him to bring Indy a ring, maybe two.

If McNair were saddled with the Colts D and Manning had the Titans the past several years Manning would probably have a ring or two and McNair's teams would struggle to sniff the playoffs. Just my worthless opinion however.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 12:49 PM
Where did this come from? 3rd on my list.

1)Favre
2)McNair
3)Manning

Hell, after this cocky remark (If proven true) he'll fall to the bottom, more than likely underneath Koy Detmer.

haha favre. neone else would have been castrated for throwing away a playoff game like he did. but no, not favre.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 12:53 PM
Where did this come from? 3rd on my list.

1)Favre
2)McNair
3)Manning

Hell, after this cocky remark (If proven true) he'll fall to the bottom, more than likely underneath Koy Detmer.

I just busted a rib
:alky:

mosca
07-14-2004, 12:58 PM
i'd say that payton's the best right now.
this season i think mike vick will really turn his game up a notch, like to see how he woulda done over the course of a full season last year if he hadn't gotten hurt.

bpc
07-14-2004, 12:59 PM
I agree with Vavoon and Naptown... although Favre is a great QB, I'll never say the greatest. He just has always had a knack for making a big mistake in crucial times. That INT against Philly in the playoffs last year was the most recent. All one needs to do is look back to Super Bowl 32. Greg Robinson called a great game and Denver totally forced Favre into some bad plays but Favre took a lot of chances and his team got burned because of it. He is a live by the gun/die by the gun type of QB. I doubt Favre wins another championship before he retires... that is just my feelings. He has lost the edge that he had early in his career and his skills have eroded to a point. Injuries are also becoming a factor. I'll be the first to admit being wrong if I am but I doubt Favre walks away with more then one ring.

As for Manning, Naptown I totally agree. If Manning had half a defense in Indy he would be bringing some rings to Indianapolis... the problem is with all the money tied up in him and probably EJ or Harrison this next year its going to be hard to ever build a top notch defense to help Manning get those rings. If there was a year to do it, it would be this season if they are going to win... I can see Indy winning this year but after this season its going to be dicey with all the potential free agents they have.

As for McNair, when I think of him, I just think of a very good QB that survives on grit. I don't really think of a great QB or even an MVP. He's fun to watch and he is definately tough but not in the class of a Manning or even a Tom Brady.

Mtbrncofn
07-14-2004, 01:12 PM
Cripes, why does a seemingly gracious guy gotta go and proclaim something like that? Don't these guys know about pride going before a fall?

I lose respect for players that pull this kind of crap. Try some humility.

Garcia Bronco
07-14-2004, 01:12 PM
If I was a coach I would want Tom Brady running my team.

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 01:14 PM
Peyton will always struggle in the post season for two reasons. First, he has no mobility and he's unable to evade a strong pass rush. You have to be pretty lucky to make it through an entire post season without facing a killer defense. Second, he becomes far less effective when you rough him up a bit (like most quarterbacks).

I wouldn't be totally surprised if he finished Ringless, just like Marino, who had the same weaknesses.

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 01:18 PM
If I'm starting a team, I take Peyton to build around, easily the best QB in the league now, but I'd not pass Tom Brady over because of his intangibles.

McNair and Favre don't have enough gas left in the tank to be good much longer.

McNabb and Vick are alot of show but not much go...

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 01:19 PM
Donovan McNabb will definitely win a Super Bowl before Peyton Manning.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 01:23 PM
<a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133361" target="_blank">Donovan McNabb</a> will definitely win a Super Bowl before <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a>.

mcnabb isnt close the qb manning is. mcnabb might win first, but football is a team sport.

and plenty of immobile qb's have won the superbowl. infact its a near friggin tradition, lets see.

dilfer, warner, brady, johnson, brady. maybe u should argue the other way around, that if u can't really and truly pass the ball and u end up relying on things like scrambling, that defense is just too intense in the playoffs to win consistently.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 01:29 PM
i'd say that payton's the best right now.
this season i think <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253" target="_blank">Michael Vick</a></a> will really turn his game up a notch, like to see how he woulda done over the course of a full season last year if he hadn't gotten hurt.


I would take Vick over Payton any day.. Payton is a little b!

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 01:32 PM
mcnabb isnt close the qb manning is. mcnabb might win first, but football is a team sport.

and plenty of immobile qb's have won the superbowl. infact its a near friggin tradition, lets see.

dilfer, warner, brady, johnson, brady. maybe u should argue the other way around, that if u can't really and truly pass the ball and u end up relying on things like scrambling, that defense is just too intense in the playoffs to win consistently.

Those guys don't fold up when you bloody their noses.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 01:35 PM
Those guys don't fold up when you bloody their noses.

yah, ok. if u say so.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 01:39 PM
mcnabb isnt close the qb manning is. mcnabb might win first, but football is a team sport.

and plenty of immobile qb's have won the superbowl. infact its a near friggin tradition, lets see.

dilfer, warner, brady, johnson, brady. maybe u should argue the other way around, that if u can't really and truly pass the ball and u end up relying on things like scrambling, that defense is just too intense in the playoffs to win consistently.


Times are changing, its a new erra in football, why would you not want a mobile qb?

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 01:41 PM
Manning has Harrison and Edge, but his playoff record is deplorable. McNabb has had a collection of garbage at the skill positions on offense and he gets to the NFC Championship Game every year.

You probably thought Marino was better than Elway, too. Stats shake out about the same in both cases.

Spider
07-14-2004, 01:42 PM
Top QB's in the NFL right now .........
1. Tom Brady - Say what you want about this guy , he just seems to get the job done ... I like the way Brady reads a defense , and his decision making is outstanding ........ My knock on Brady is he makes Griese look fast running ......
2. Steve McNair - Dude is a warrior , Not the prettiest QB you will see throw the Ball , but Steve will find away to get it done even if he has to run you over to do it .......
3. David Carr - this Pick will have some scratching thier heads , but I like Carrs style , he has enough Arm , guts and determination , he just has to harness it ..........
4.Peyton Manning - Simply the best passer in the NFL , but Manning doesnt let the flow of the game happen , with all of his audibles and hand gestures . I think Manning out thinks himself and his offense on more then 1 occasion per game ......
Thats my take on the Qb's
QB worth mentioning is Brett Farve , he is old but I think he has another season in the tank ...........

TheManeMan
07-14-2004, 01:45 PM
Manning has Harrison and Edge, but his playoff record is deplorable. McNabb has had a collection of garbage at the skill positions on offense and he gets to the NFC Championship Game every year.





Because of his Defense...nothing more...nothing less...

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 01:57 PM
<a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133361" target="_blank">Donovan McNabb</a> will definitely win a Super Bowl before <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a>.

Who was that goober from fresno state that won a superbowl.. played for the ravens.

Heck Doug Williams won a superbowl before John Elway, but who was the better quarterback? So did phil simms... big deal....

Montana won 4 Elway 2, but Elway was the better QB..

Sassy
07-14-2004, 01:59 PM
I'd take Jake's attitude over Peyton's anyday!

TheManeMan
07-14-2004, 01:59 PM
Who was that goober from fresno state that won a superbowl.. played for the ravens.


Trent Dilfer...soon to be David Carr...atleast in 3-4 years...

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 02:01 PM
<a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133361" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133361" target="_blank">Donovan McNabb</a></a> will definitely win a Super Bowl before <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a></a>.

I think that chance has passed McNabb over. Philadelphia is done for a while. They had 3 shots in a row and couldn't grab the shot at the ring. Other teams in the NFC will have caught and surpassed Philly. McNabb doesn't have the quality to carry a team on his back like many other QB's. Namely, Elway, Montan, Young, and now Brady.

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 02:02 PM
Trent Dilfer...soon to be <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268" target="_blank">David Carr</a>...atleast in 3-4 years...


such a memorable QB... Yikes!

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 02:03 PM
mcnair had like 26 or 27 td passes last season.. sounds like offense to me

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 02:04 PM
mcnair had like 26 or 27 td passes last season.. sounds like offense to me


McNair is very good, no doubt about it, but how much does he have left? He takes a pretty good beating evey season.

TheManeMan
07-14-2004, 02:05 PM
such a memorable QB... Yikes!


I just know because I'm a Fresno native...so I kinda have to keep track of the hometown "heros"

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 02:11 PM
I'd take Jake's attitude over Peyton's anyday!

yeah Jake certainly has a great attitude, I can'twait for this season to start.

bendog
07-14-2004, 02:11 PM
delhomme actually had better playoff stats.

I wouldn't argue with him, though I'd take Brady or McNabb over him, and I suspect Vick and ... Leftwich .... and his lil bro will give him a challange. And, if Plummer can stay healthy for a year, while he may not have as many passing yards, I think Plummer might turn into a better qb. I like manning as a qb, but the fact is he doesn't make plays. His game is dependent upon his oline and his wrs. Twasnt so of Faver and Elway, and Montana could make plays all by his lonesome, and Peyton ain't in that class of competitor.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 02:14 PM
McNair is very good, no doubt about it, but how much does he have left? He takes a pretty good beating evey season.


Well hopefully williams can put a joe thiesman on manning and he wont have any ankle left either

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 02:20 PM
delhomme actually had better playoff stats.

I wouldn't argue with him, though I'd take Brady or McNabb over him, and I suspect Vick and ... Leftwich .... and his lil bro will give him a challange. And, if Plummer can stay healthy for a year, while he may not have as many passing yards, I think Plummer might turn into a better qb. I like manning as a qb, but the fact is he doesn't make plays. His game is dependent upon his oline and his wrs. Twasnt so of Faver and Elway, and Montana could make plays all by his lonesome, and Peyton ain't in that class of competitor.

Most ridiculous post I've read all week.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 02:22 PM
in fact put all three mannings together like tackling dummys and let lynch wilson and williams run drills on them... the manning are jokes and dont deserve shht..

Tredici
07-14-2004, 02:22 PM
Leftwich will be one to watch this season.

I'm surprised there is no love for Daunte Culpepper anywhere in this thread.

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 02:27 PM
I'll take McNair over him as well....I also think he has a lot more left in the tank than he's being given credit for.

crazyhorse
07-14-2004, 02:28 PM
Well hopefully williams can put a joe thiesman on manning and he wont have any ankle left either

What a rediculous reaction. Wishing a carreer ending injury on someone for any reason is assinine. Perhaps you should just quit watching football all together.

You sir are a jackass.

I mean, it's not like someone told you that you had a short dick or something.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 02:28 PM
Well hopefully williams can put a joe thiesman on manning and he wont have any ankle left either

Classy post ::)

Anyway...What's wrong with a little self-confidence from a top notch QB? Is everyone's problem with this the fact that he thinks he's the best or the fact he said he's the best.

I want my QB exuding self-confidence it's contagious to the rest of the team. Manning's not a punk or anything he just believes in himself and his ability, what the hell is so wrong about that?

Half the QB's in the league look like deer in the headlights when their team needs them the most.

Manning and Brady are my top 2 in the league right now, although I'm dying to see Vick play a full season this year.

Ron

crazyhorse
07-14-2004, 02:30 PM
I guess everyone has already forgotten the ass whipping he put on both our teams just a few short months ago.

PM is the best QB today. Maybe not next year or the year after. But for now, he is without a doubt the best.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 02:32 PM
Daunte is tight.. however I wonder why a 6'4" 260lb man would play qb.. Daunte had 24 td passes last season 17 of them to moss

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 02:34 PM
Those guys don't fold up when you bloody their noses.


who folded up in the playoffs last year and took themselves out of the game....I believe that was McNabb.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 02:35 PM
Classy post ::)

Anyway...What's wrong with a little self-confidence from a top notch QB? Is everyone's problem with this the fact that he thinks he's the best or the fact he said he's the best.

I want my QB exuding self-confidence it's contagious to the rest of the team. Manning's not a punk or anything he just believes in himself and his ability, what the hell is so wrong about that?
Ron

I was wondering the same thing myself.

Tredici
07-14-2004, 02:37 PM
If the inference is Moss makes Culpepper a better QB then I'll see the McNabb to Owens connection before making any decision.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 02:37 PM
What a rediculous reaction. Wishing a carreer ending injury on someone for any reason is assinine. Perhaps you should just quit watching football all together.

You sir are a jackass.

I mean, it's not like someone told you that you had a short dick or something.


What ever crazyhorse, maybe you should pull your panties up.. I dont like the guy or his family.. I dont realy hope he get a season ending injury .. I just have a grudge thats all..

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 02:40 PM
If the inference is Moss makes Culpepper a better QB then I'll see the McNabb to Owens connection before making any decision.


it makes it a little easier if all you have to do is throw it up for grabs like your playing 500

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 02:43 PM
Classy post ::)

Anyway...What's wrong with a little self-confidence from a top notch QB? Is everyone's problem with this the fact that he thinks he's the best or the fact he said he's the best.

I want my QB exuding self-confidence it's contagious to the rest of the team. Manning's not a punk or anything he just believes in himself and his ability, what the hell is so wrong about that?


It's arrogance....not "self-confidence"....This guy lost me a long time ago with his reaction to the statements made by his PK a couple of years ago in the pro-bowl ..I thought he handled that in a classless manner.

Whatever, he's not a favorite of mine by a long shot and while I'll never wish injury on him, it wouldn't bother me at all to see him get humbled a few times this season either by his throwing a lot of INTs or by his tasting the field a few times...especially when Denver plays against him.

bendog
07-14-2004, 02:45 PM
McNabb left it all on the field against Car. But, to be fair, I saw Peyton actually run and give himself up for a first down two years ago. I'd give them both the ok for being tough. McNabb can make plays on his own, while Manning makes better throws. But Manning isn't in the staubach, montana, elway, faver class. Unitas didn't move very well, and he was possibly the toughest I've seen.

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 02:45 PM
<a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133361" target="_blank">Donovan McNabb</a> will definitely win a Super Bowl before <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a>.




"In three NFC championship games, McNabb is 54-for-101 for 514 yards with one touchdown and five interceptions, and just nine rushes for 53 yards."


His defense is going to have to go from really good to 85 Bears type good if they are going to carry him to a ring.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 02:52 PM
It's arrogance....not "self-confidence"....

If he wasn't one of the top QBs in the league you would have a point. You act like it's Trent Green or one of the second tier QBs saying that. Who did you expect him to say anyway?

epicSocialism4tw
07-14-2004, 02:58 PM
Top QB's in the NFL right now .........
1. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741" target="_blank">Tom Brady</a> - Say what you want about this guy , he just seems to get the job done ... I like the way Brady reads a defense , and his decision making is outstanding ........ My knock on Brady is he makes Griese look fast running ......
2. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1069" target="_blank">Steve McNair</a> - Dude is a warrior , Not the prettiest QB you will see throw the Ball , but Steve will find away to get it done even if he has to run you over to do it .......
3. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268" target="_blank">David Carr</a> - this Pick will have some scratching thier heads , but I like Carrs style , he has enough Arm , guts and determination , he just has to harness it ..........
4.<a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> - Simply the best passer in the NFL , but Manning doesnt let the flow of the game happen , with all of his audibles and hand gestures . I think Manning out thinks himself and his offense on more then 1 occasion per game ......
Thats my take on the Qb's
QB worth mentioning is Brett Farve , he is old but I think he has another season in the tank ...........

Man...do you watch much football?

Northman
07-14-2004, 03:08 PM
Would agree with you on all accounts. He has been saddled with very poor defenses most of his career so far. If Dungy can muster up a top 15 defense for the next couple years I would fully expect him to bring Indy a ring, maybe two.

If McNair were saddled with the Colts D and Manning had the Titans the past several years Manning would probably have a ring or two and McNair's teams would struggle to sniff the playoffs. Just my worthless opinion however.



no way. for starters, Peyton has had a much better offesive line and better wideouts than Mcnair has. secondly, there were many times when Mcnair had to get out of trouble much like John in his heyday just to avoid many sacks. Peyton has no mobility whatsover. Peyton is good, but not THAT good.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 03:09 PM
I would much rather have a QB that believes in himself than a QB that thinks he's OK or pretty good or above average. I personally would be more worried about a QB that says "Yeah, I'm not bad I guess..." and gives you the old shoulder shrug. Would it have been easier for some to swallow if he said top 3? Top 5?

As I've said before, there's guys out there that don't want the rock with the game on the line. Give me someone who does. Manning is one of those guys who does. Is he the best? Debatable, but IMO he is right now.

Ron

bendog
07-14-2004, 03:10 PM
Llama, what was wrong with that take? I'd put both manning and mcnabb ahead of carr, but if you've watched any Hou games you'd have to see a comparison to Carr and Aikman. Carr owns that team. If he lives thourth the beatings, Hou couls be a force.

Also, something may be happeing in cinny and possibly balt. There's been a dirth of good qb's the past 5 years or so.

Northman
07-14-2004, 03:14 PM
I guess everyone has already forgotten the ass whipping he put on both our teams just a few short months ago.

PM is the best QB today. Maybe not next year or the year after. But for now, he is without a doubt the best.



oh yea, you mean right after we whooped his ass? :thumbsup:

Spider
07-14-2004, 03:16 PM
Daunte is tight.. however I wonder why a 6'4" 260lb man would play qb.. Daunte had 24 td passes last season 17 of them to moss
The Only knock I have on Dante is fumbling .......... He fumbles alot ........

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 03:19 PM
"In three NFC championship games, McNabb is 54-for-101 for 514 yards with one touchdown and five interceptions, and just nine rushes for 53 yards."


His defense is going to have to go from really good to 85 Bears type good if they are going to carry him to a ring.

Manning has only managed one AFC Championship Game. Great numbers, too.

23 completions on 47 attempts for 237 yards. 1 touchdown and 4 interceptions.

Yeah, way better than Donovan.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 03:20 PM
"In three NFC championship games, McNabb is 54-for-101 for 514 yards with one touchdown and five interceptions, and just nine rushes for 53 yards."


His defense is going to have to go from really good to 85 Bears type good if they are going to carry him to a ring.

Yeah, between the NFC championship games and his bowl games in college. McNabb gives new meaning to the phrase happy feet when the pressure
is on.

Spider
07-14-2004, 03:20 PM
Man...do you watch much football?
There is no such thing as watching too much football ..............

Northman
07-14-2004, 03:20 PM
I would much rather have a QB that believes in himself than a QB that thinks he's OK or pretty good or above average. I personally would be more worried about a QB that says "Yeah, I'm not bad I guess..." and gives you the old shoulder shrug. Would it have been easier for some to swallow if he said top 3? Top 5?

As I've said before, there's guys out there that don't want the rock with the game on the line. Give me someone who does. Manning is one of those guys who does. Is he the best? Debatable, but IMO he is right now.

Ron


oh yea, confidence is real good, but this is arrogance. but its ok man, im glad he thinks like that cause now every defense that plays against him is putting a target on his ass. he could have been humble about it which is not a bad thing.

Northman
07-14-2004, 03:24 PM
Yeah, between the NFC championship games and his bowl games in college. McNabb gives new meaning to the phrase happy feet when the pressure
is on.


college? oh brother. let me remind you that the almighty Peyton Manning NEVER beat Florida, NEVER in 4 trys. that is one of the biggest rivals of Tennesse and Peyton couldnt get it done. and he didnt play on a subpar team like Mcnabb did in Syracuse.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 03:26 PM
oh yea, confidence is real good, but this is arrogance. but its ok man, im glad he thinks like that cause now every defense that plays against him is putting a target on his ass. he could have been humble about it which is not a bad thing.

Once again, Who did you expect him to say? ??? If not himself than who?Is there a right or wrong answer?

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 03:29 PM
college? oh brother. let me remind you that the almighty <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> NEVER beat Florida, NEVER in 4 trys. that is one of the biggest rivals of Tennesse and Peyton couldnt get it done. and he didnt play on a subpar team like Mcnabb did in Syracuse.

Syracuse had a good team when McNabb played there. They definitely didn't have a subpar team.

Northman
07-14-2004, 03:30 PM
Once again, Who did you expect him to say? ??? If not himself than who?Is there a right or wrong answer?


i would expect him to say something to the nature of ' im not really sure, there are a lot of great Qbs in the league right now '. all im saying is he should have been humble about it. confidence is one thing but arrogance is just asking for trouble in my opinion. and like someone else said, after the PK got drunk and bitched about the team Peyton took upon himself to ' air the dirty laundry ' on national television. if your a team leader, you dont do crap like that. there is more to being a great Qb than just stats. thats the point im trying to make.

Northman
07-14-2004, 03:31 PM
Syracuse had a good team when McNabb played there. They definitely didn't have a subpar team.


good but nothing like Tennesse. they dont even come close to recruiting blue chip players like Tennesse.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 03:36 PM
The Only knock I have on Dante is fumbling .......... He fumbles alot ........


Yeah he does fumble quite a bit.. he is still very good and humble (imagine that) I question his smarts however.. I think moss and his attitude have him in check..

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 03:36 PM
So he should have said "I am a serviceable NFL quarterback."? or "I am not the worst starting QB currently in the NFL."? Too vanilla for my tastes. It takes a great deal of self confidence to be a winner: In the NFL and in life. If you want to argue that it's ok to think it but it's wrong to say it out loud, then I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Ron

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 03:36 PM
i would expect him to say something to the nature of ' im not really sure, there are a lot of great Qbs in the league right now '. all im saying is he should have been humble about it. confidence is one thing but arrogance is just asking for trouble in my opinion. and like someone else said, after the PK got drunk and bitched about the team Peyton took upon himself to ' air the dirty laundry ' on national television. if your a team leader, you dont do crap like that. there is more to being a great Qb than just stats. thats the point im trying to make.

I'll remind you he said this while on The Hot Seat , you know , on Sports Center. You don't get to give ho hum answers on that show. You didn't watch it did you?

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 03:38 PM
i would expect him to say something to the nature of ' im not really sure, there are a lot of great Qbs in the league right now '. all im saying is he should have been humble about it. confidence is one thing but arrogance is just asking for trouble in my opinion. and like someone else said, after the PK got drunk and bitched about the team Peyton took upon himself to ' air the dirty laundry ' on national television. if your a team leader, you dont do crap like that. there is more to being a great Qb than just stats. thats the point im trying to make.

If you don't think Manning is a leader on and off the field, you might need to adjust your rabbit ears.

Ron

DarkHorse
07-14-2004, 03:49 PM
Someone once asked Jerry Rice: "Are you the best to ever play your position?"

His reply?

"You'll never hear me say that" - That's class

Even if Peyton was asked to say it he could have shown some humility. Just the fact that he was that easily 'pressured' into making the statement shows just how full of himself he is. In my opinion he's a self centered egotistical jackass who also happens to be a very good QB in the NFL. That pained me to say that, it really did. I think he's awesome as a QB but he's an arrogant asshole from the interviews that i've seen him in. No, it's not confidence it's definetly arrogance.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 03:51 PM
Someone once asked <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1291" target="_blank">Jerry Rice</a>: "Are you the best to ever play your position?"

His reply?

"You'll never hear me say that" - That's class

Even if Peyton was asked to say it he could have shown some humility. Just the fact that he was that easily 'pressured' into making the statement shows just how full of himself he is. In my opinion he's a self centered egotistical jackass who also happens to be a very good QB in the NFL. That pained me to say that, it really did. I think he's awesome as a QB but he's an arrogant asshole from the interviews that i've seen him in. No, it's not confidence it's definetly arrogance.

Serious... the guy needs a reality check

The Big E
07-14-2004, 03:52 PM
So he should have said "I am a serviceable NFL quarterback."? or "I am not the worst starting QB currently in the NFL."? Too vanilla for my tastes. It takes a great deal of self confidence to be a winner: In the NFL and in life. If you want to argue that it's ok to think it but it's wrong to say it out loud, then I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Ron
I am not a fan of the Manning's, and just can't get past this guy's melon-sized head. However, I actually don't see a problem with a QB with some confidence, and a little cockiness. It just doesn't seem to fit PM for some reason, but it did fit a guy like Marino quite well.

Spider
07-14-2004, 03:52 PM
Yeah he does fumble quite a bit.. he is still very good and humble (imagine that) I question his smarts however.. I think moss and his attitude have him in check..
I have no doubts Cullpepper can Game , I dont think him and Moss get along well though ........

Northman
07-14-2004, 03:57 PM
If you don't think Manning is a leader on and off the field, you might need to adjust your rabbit ears.

Ron



lmao. oh yea, criticizing you teamates shows great leadership abilities just ask Terrell ' im the greatest reciever eva ' Owens who has, how many rings again? as i stated before it takes more than stats to become a GREAT Qb. take away any of Peytons wideouts and plug in some average wides and see how well he does. Manning gets a LOT of help from his offense, not just a little. guys like Elway did a ****load more with less than what Manning has helping him. and their defense was much much improved from previous years but the fact is he got outplayed by Brady and the Pats. hell, Brady deserves more credit than he is getting he hasnt had a that little thing called a running game to help him. talk about perking up the rabbit ears, you need to get out of that tunnel vision you latched onto.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 04:05 PM
lmao. oh yea, criticizing you teamates shows great leadership abilities just ask Terrell ' im the greatest reciever eva ' Owens who has, how many rings again? as i stated before it takes more than stats to become a GREAT Qb. take away any of Peytons wideouts and plug in some average wides and see how well he does. Manning gets a LOT of help from his offense, not just a little. guys like Elway did a ****load more with less than what Manning has helping him. and their defense was much much improved from previous years but the fact is he got outplayed by Brady and the Pats. hell, Brady deserves more credit than he is getting he hasnt had a that little thing called a running game to help him. talk about perking up the rabbit ears, you need to get out of that tunnel vision you latched onto.

Just like in college when Nash was his best receiver right? Damn, I don't know how the Vols ever lost a game.

Wayne has one good season to date and their No. 3 is Stokely. You're talking about Wayne and Stokely like they are something very far above average. Proof of how good Sir Peyton is.

Northman
07-14-2004, 04:11 PM
Just like in college when Nash was his best receiver right? Damn, I don't know how the Vols ever lost a game.

Wayne has one good season to date and their No. 3 is Stokely. You're talking about Wayne and Stokely like they are something very far above average. Proof of how good Sir Peyton is.


oh i forgot. Nash was his only reciever thats right. nevermind that other allstar Peerless and whats that running backs name who kicks ass in bufflo right now? uh, Henry i think and the other in Jamal Lewis. didnt he have 2,000 yds last year? Nate Wayne is one of the fastest recievers in the game right now ( thats why they let Wilkens go ) and stokely is a great reciever with a super bowl ring. oh i know, he doesnt have flash so that doesnt count right? and who is the third reciever again? im sure its a allpro and future hall of famer...but i cant seem to recall his name. umm Marvin....Harry... Harrison. yea. thats him. Damn, give Jake that kind of recieving core and we can do some serious damage. sorry, you'll have to dig deeper.

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 04:18 PM
I would much rather have a QB that believes in himself than a QB that thinks he's OK or pretty good or above average. I personally would be more worried about a QB that says "Yeah, I'm not bad I guess..." and gives you the old shoulder shrug. Would it have been easier for some to swallow if he said top 3? Top 5?

As I've said before, there's guys out there that don't want the rock with the game on the line. Give me someone who does. Manning is one of those guys who does. Is he the best? Debatable, but IMO he is right now.

Ron


Showing grace and humility in no way means that they don't "want the rock with the game on the line".....since when is showing some class an indication of self-doubt?

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 04:20 PM
I'll remind you he said this while on The Hot Seat , you know , on Sports Center. You don't get to give ho hum answers on that show. You didn't watch it did you?


I avoid FlavorCenter every chance I get.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 04:29 PM
oh i forgot. Nash was his only reciever thats right. nevermind that other allstar Peerless and whats that running backs name who kicks ass in bufflo right now? uh, Henry i think and the other in <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187391" target="_blank">Jamal Lewis</a>. didnt he have 2,000 yds last year? <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12806" target="_blank">Nate Wayne</a> is one of the fastest recievers in the game right now ( thats why they let Wilkens go ) and stokely is a great reciever with a super bowl ring. oh i know, he doesnt have flash so that doesnt count right? and who is the third reciever again? im sure its a allpro and future hall of famer...but i cant seem to recall his name. umm Marvin....Harry... Harrison. yea. thats him. Damn, give Jake that kind of recieving core and we can do some serious damage. sorry, you'll have to dig deeper.

Price: Didn't come into his own until Peyton was gone.
Henry: Very good back
Lewis: injured most the time
Nate who?
Stokely: Superbowl Yes Great No
Never said Harrison wasn't the best in the game.

labronx
07-14-2004, 04:36 PM
lmao. oh yea, criticizing you teamates shows great leadership abilities just ask Terrell ' im the greatest reciever eva ' Owens who has, how many rings again? as i stated before it takes more than stats to become a GREAT Qb. take away any of Peytons wideouts and plug in some average wides and see how well he does. Manning gets a LOT of help from his offense, not just a little. guys like Elway did a ****load more with less than what Manning has helping him. and their defense was much much improved from previous years but the fact is he got outplayed by Brady and the Pats. hell, Brady deserves more credit than he is getting he hasnt had a that little thing called a running game to help him. talk about perking up the rabbit ears, you need to get out of that tunnel vision you latched onto.

Dude your on a roll!!

valid ass points!

I think the only reason Payton played so well in last years playoffs is because he got the fire lit up his ass!

Too bad the guy holding the match was kicker who is more of a competitor than him.

If you have ever read anything on Vanderject the dude does not consider himself a kicker he is football player. Try telling it to his face he will tackle your ass!

Anyways till Manning wins a ring hes a loser just like Elway was always considered and Elway never had a receiver like Harrison or a running game like Edge till TD came along.

And Elway is 10 times the competitor Manning will ever be.

Edgar

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 04:40 PM
Tunnel vision, what in the holy hell are you talking about? Read my 1st post on this thread , I said Manning and Brady are 1 and 2 in my opinion. So now if you call team mates out for not performing you're an ass? Where does this leave Rod Smith? Rod does it every year but it doesn't make him a bad guy, does it?(BTW, I love Rod so let's not even start that)

As far as using playoff numbers to make a case for him not being a top flight QB, that's not entirely fair either. Pretend it's '92 and we're having this discussion. Elway's SB numbers back then were a less than stellar 46 for 101 663 Yds 2 TD's 6 INT's yet no one would argue that he was among the very best QB's in the game, despite subpar SB numbers.

IMO, the only crime committed here is he said it out loud. If you don't think Jerry Rice doesn't believe he's the greatest reciever in history hands down you're fooling yourself. He's just a little more PC when he does interviews. If Rice would speak honestly and candidly on the record, he'd tell you the truth. Manning has no history of being a cancer in the locker room or a coach killer but everyone is on his back for believing in himself?

What about Hassleback in the playoffs last year announcing to the world during the OT coin flip that the 'Hawks were going to win? No backlash there, and I saw no torches and pitchforks heading up I-5 towards Seattle. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me at all. Chad Johnson guaranteeing a win vs. the Chefs? No biggie, if he was wrong they weren't supposed to win anyway. Even Quitterson promising to put something on our azz last year isn't a big deal to me. Didn't happen and made him look even more clownish than usual.

If I had truly had Tunnel vision, I'd be trying to convince you that Jake is the best wouldn't I? I'm not a Colts fan but I am impressed with how he plays the game. He kicked the living poop out of us in the playoffs and had a good time doing it. I'm not even trying to make a case for him being the best, I'm saying as one of the best he should be afforded the right to speak honestly about what he feels.

Ron

Sassy
07-14-2004, 04:42 PM
He kicked the living poop out of us in the playoffs and had a good time doing it.
__________________________________________________ ________________
As did the Broncos a couple of weeks before...

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 04:46 PM
Showing grace and humility in no way means that they don't "want the rock with the game on the line".....since when is showing some class an indication of self-doubt?

And since when does speaking what you truly believe in your heart to be true make you a loser? If you can't believe in yourself, who the F can you believe in?


I have much less of a problem with this then RayRay and other defenders jumping around like they just tackled Jesus on 4th and goal when they're making routine plays 3 and 4 yards downfield.


Nobody thinks less of Ali for proclaiming himself "The Greatest" do they?

Ron

Northman
07-14-2004, 04:49 PM
Tunnel vision, what in the holy hell are you talking about? Read my 1st post on this thread , I said Manning and Brady are 1 and 2 in my opinion. So now if you call team mates out for not performing you're an ass? Where does this leave <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1220" target="_blank">Rod Smith</a>? Rod does it every year but it doesn't make him a bad guy, does it?(BTW, I love Rod so let's not even start that)

As far as using playoff numbers to make a case for him not being a top flight QB, that's not entirely fair either. Pretend it's '92 and we're having this discussion. Elway's SB numbers back then were a less than stellar 46 for 101 663 Yds 2 TD's 6 INT's yet no one would argue that he was among the very best QB's in the game, despite subpar SB numbers.

IMO, the only crime committed here is he said it out loud. If you don't think <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1291" target="_blank">Jerry Rice</a> doesn't believe he's the greatest reciever in history hands down you're fooling yourself. He's just a little more PC when he does interviews. If Rice would speak honestly and candidly on the record, he'd tell you the truth. Manning has no history of being a cancer in the locker room or a coach killer but everyone is on his back for believing in himself?

What about Hassleback in the playoffs last year announcing to the world during the OT coin flip that the 'Hawks were going to win? No backlash there, and I saw no torches and pitchforks heading up I-5 towards Seattle. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me at all. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235222" target="_blank">Chad Johnson</a> guaranteeing a win vs. the Chefs? No biggie, if he was wrong they weren't supposed to win anyway. Even Quitterson promising to put something on our azz last year isn't a big deal to me. Didn't happen and made him look even more clownish than usual.

If I had truly had Tunnel vision, I'd be trying to convince you that Jake is the best wouldn't I? I'm not a Colts fan but I am impressed with how he plays the game. He kicked the living poop out of us in the playoffs and had a good time doing it. I'm not even trying to make a case for him being the best, I'm saying as one of the best he should be afforded the right to speak honestly about what he feels.

Ron


fair enough, a lot of valid points you made there but i still think he has a long way to go. Trent Green has a crapload of stats as well but no one is mentioning him in the same sentence and to me they both are almost identical. to me, they are both just products of their current offensive systems. i never said Peyton was bad just overrated. i believe Peyton has the right football mindset and arm to succeed but i want to see what he can do without all the talent around him. maybe im too old fashioned in the sense that i watched John carry the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s without a whole lot of help or talent around him. even though Kurt Warner has a ring it really was the system that got it for him. it can happen for Peyton as well but i just feel today's QB needs to have a more balanced attack both with his feet and arm and Peyton doesnt fit into that mold in my opinion.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 04:52 PM
He kicked the living poop out of us in the playoffs and had a good time doing it.
__________________________________________________ ________________
As did the Broncos a couple of weeks before...

Hey don't get me wrong, I'm as Orange and Blue as anyone on here and I loved toasting the Colts as I take great pleasure in all Bronco victories. He didn't play well that night, agreed. If you have access to it, go back and watch that Monday nighter against Tampa last year. Even after seeing it a few times, it's still incredible.

Ron

labronx
07-14-2004, 04:54 PM
Hey don't get me wrong, I'm as Orange and Blue as anyone on here and I loved toasting the Colts as I take great pleasure in all Bronco victories. He didn't play well that night, agreed. If you have access to it, go back and watch that Monday nighter against Tampa last year. Even after seeing it a few times, it's still incredible.

Ron

Good Point

That game changed my perception of manning.

I always that he was a chocker till then. The way he was firing the ball showed he had gotten bigger balls

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 04:56 PM
And since when does speaking what you truly believe in your heart to be true make you a loser? If you can't believe in yourself, who the F can you believe in?

Talk about reaching, did I say "Loser"?? No, I said arrogant.....again, since when does grace and humility reflect self-doubt or a lack of belief in ones self??

Elway never said such things...he didn't have to....guess he didn't believe in himself, did he?

Sassy
07-14-2004, 04:57 PM
Peyton is a good QB...don't get me wrong...but I'd rather have Jake. Jake has heart and was 9-2 as a starter for us. He got pissed when he threw that INT in the first Colt's game and came back with fire. I like that in a QB. He'll be even better for the Broncos this year...and I've never heard him in the "I" mode...everything is team with Jake and I'm guessing he'll have a SB moment before Peyton does.

PatsWin2002
07-14-2004, 04:59 PM
Quite a few guys have more throwing ability than Brady, but I'll take Tom anyday. We lived through the Bledsoe/Brady thing ad nauseum around here.

We know Drew has a stronger arm. Unfortunately, he's still connected to that head and feet. And he always tried to force that 1 more pass that always killed us.

Tom makes better decisions. And the comparisons to Montana are definitely there and hold some water. Marino was a better passer than Montana, but Joe got it done..... and done well under pressure.

I think Manning has some Bledsoe in him in that he tries to do too much himself. And he has more offensive help than Drew ever had.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 05:02 PM
fair enough, a lot of valid points you made there but i still think he has a long way to go. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1599" target="_blank">Trent Green</a> has a crapload of stats as well but no one is mentioning him in the same sentence and to me they both are almost identical. to me, they are both just products of their current offensive systems. i never said Peyton was bad just overrated. i believe Peyton has the right football mindset and arm to succeed but i want to see what he can do without all the talent around him. maybe im too old fashioned in the sense that i watched John carry the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s without a whole lot of help or talent around him. even though <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12797" target="_blank">Kurt Warner</a> has a ring it really was the system that got it for him. it can happen for Peyton as well but i just feel today's QB needs to have a more balanced attack both with his feet and arm and Peyton doesnt fit into that mold in my opinion.

First off let it be said that I could beat Brad Johnson, Kurt Warner and Trent Dilfer in a foot race and they all have rings.

I also respect the hell out of your takes on this board and I'm not trying to start a pissing contest here. I think he's a hell of a QB regardless of any "baggage" people think he might have.

In no particular order these are the guys I go out of my way to find on Sunday Ticket when the Broncos aren't on:

Manning
Brady
Leftwich
Favre even though his game has slid a little

Ron

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 05:04 PM
Peyton is a good QB...don't get me wrong...but I'd rather have Jake. Jake has heart and was 9-2 as a starter for us. He got pissed when he threw that INT in the first Colt's game and came back with fire. I like that in a QB. He'll be even better for the Broncos this year...and I've never heard him in the "I" mode...everything is team with Jake and I'm guessing he'll have a SB moment before Peyton does.

I sure hope you're right. I'm finally at a point in my life where I could move heaven and earth to get to the SB in person when we get back there.

Ron

Jason in LA
07-14-2004, 05:10 PM
When I heard Manning say he was the best, I didn't think it was cocky at all. He was asked a question. He didn't just come out and say it.

The debate about Manning and McNair is just like the Elway and Marino debates. One is a pocket passer, the other is a playmaker. Manning has a much better supporting cast on O than McNair, just like Marino had over Elway. Put Manning on the Titans and he struggles big time. The same can be said for McNabb. He has nothing around him, but he makes plays on his own that help the team win. Manning would struggle on the Eagles. I think both McNair and McNabb would do pretty good with Harrison and Edge.

As for Brady, I've said it a number of times, he's pretty good, but he's very overrated. He gets more credit than he deserves. He's the only star on that team, but he's a star because the media has made him that. The Pats D goes out and wins the game, and Brady gets most of the credit. In 5 of the 6 playoff wins for the Pats, Brady was a total non-factor. Only this past Super Bowl Brady had a big game. I think at least 7 or 8 QBs could have won the Super Bowl with the Pats. Great D and a very low risk, dink and dunk offense. Brady is good, but I wouldn't even think of putting him in the top 5.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 05:10 PM
fair enough, a lot of valid points you made there but i still think he has a long way to go. <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1599" target="_blank">Trent Green</a> has a crapload of stats as well but no one is mentioning him in the same sentence and to me they both are almost identical. to me, they are both just products of their current offensive systems. i never said Peyton was bad just overrated. i believe Peyton has the right football mindset and arm to succeed but i want to see what he can do without all the talent around him. maybe im too old fashioned in the sense that i watched John carry the broncos to 3 super bowls in the 80s without a whole lot of help or talent around him. even though <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12797" target="_blank">Kurt Warner</a> has a ring it really was the system that got it for him. it can happen for Peyton as well but i just feel today's QB needs to have a more balanced attack both with his feet and arm and Peyton doesnt fit into that mold in my opinion.


If Manning won a superbowl this year all you would talk about is how he has Harrison and Edge yaada yaada yaada. Give me a break. You clearly have something personal against the guy.

Northman
07-14-2004, 05:12 PM
First off let it be said that I could beat <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1039" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1039" target="_blank">Brad Johnson</a></a>, <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12797" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12797" target="_blank">Kurt Warner</a></a> and Trent Dilfer in a foot race and they all have rings.

I also respect the hell out of your takes on this board and I'm not trying to start a pissing contest here. I think he's a hell of a QB regardless of any "baggage" people think he might have.

In no particular order these are the guys I go out of my way to find on Sunday Ticket when the Broncos aren't on:

Manning
Brady
Leftwich
Favre even though his game has slid a little

Ron


oh yea man, this is just debating. not a pissing contest as you put it. out of the four you listed i would put them in this order:


Brady
Favre
Manning
Leftwich ( still way early on him but what the hay ) :)

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 05:18 PM
When I heard Manning say he was the best, I didn't think it was cocky at all. He was asked a question. He didn't just come out and say it.


The problem is that the people saying he was cocky for saying he was the best. Didn't even watch it.

Northman
07-14-2004, 05:19 PM
If Manning won a superbowl this year all you would talk about is how he has Harrison and Edge yaada yaada yaada. Give me a break. You clearly have something personal against the guy.


no, not really. i mean, i dont really like him but i never really liked him even when he was in college. but he has done more to impress me in the NFL then he ever did in college. i thought originally that out of him and Leaf that Manning would fall flat on his face. he proved me wrong in that respect. as far as Manning winning a super bowl, it all depends. if Manning has 100 yds passing with 5 ints but James carries for 250 yds and the defense holds the opponent to 7 points does that mean i have to give Manning credit? on the other hand, if he passes for 404 yds and 6 tds and 0 ints and the rest of the team does squat. then yea, he will get my respect. but really OZO, if Manning is to win a SB anytime soon he will need Edge and Harrison. and he will need a line that will not force him to try and move cause if they cant protect him he's done. im not even sure how durable he is. he doesnt take that many hits so who knows if he can take any damage. i doubt it but we will have to wait and see.

Jason in LA
07-14-2004, 05:19 PM
The problem is that the people saying he was cocky for saying he was the best. Didn't even watch it.

That's the feeling that I'm getting. In print it looks bad. When watching it, it didn't sound bad at all.

Northman
07-14-2004, 05:23 PM
The problem is that the people saying he was cocky for saying he was the best. Didn't even watch it.


i didnt have to watch it. i would criticize any athlete who behave like that. you make it sound like the entire world is just picking on your boy Manning.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 05:42 PM
oh yea man, this is just debating. not a pissing contest as you put it. out of the four you listed i would put them in this order:


Brady
Favre
Manning
Leftwich ( still way early on him but what the hay ) :)

It never hurts to get in on the ground floor on a good young QB, especially in the middle rounds of your FF draft.

Ron

PatsWin2002
07-14-2004, 05:43 PM
As for Brady, I've said it a number of times, he's pretty good, but he's very overrated. He gets more credit than he deserves. He's the only star on that team, but he's a star because the media has made him that. The Pats D goes out and wins the game, and Brady gets most of the credit. In 5 of the 6 playoff wins for the Pats, Brady was a total non-factor. Only this past Super Bowl Brady had a big game. I think at least 7 or 8 QBs could have won the Super Bowl with the Pats. Great D and a very low risk, dink and dunk offense. Brady is good, but I wouldn't even think of putting him in the top 5.

This is great debate stuff.

I disagree that the Pats would've won last year with 7 or 8 other possible QBs. Tom has marched us down the field so many times now at the end of games it's no fluke. Drew never had that composure.

Tom's a very cool customer and makes good decisions. Troy Brown is the only bona-fide go-to guy he had. He had no big WR to throw at and our TEs and RBs were average.

So, if the Pats repeat will it be because he finally got a running game with Dillon?

I see your point - and you are by no means the only one that says that - but the guy gets it done. Sometimes it's the things he doesn't do that makes him so valuable.

Northman
07-14-2004, 05:47 PM
This is great debate stuff.

I disagree that the Pats would've won last year with 7 or 8 other possible QBs. Tom has marched us down the field so many times now at the end of games it's no fluke. Drew never had that composure.

Tom's a very cool customer and makes good decisions. Troy Brown is the only bona-fide go-to guy he had. He had no big WR to throw at and our TEs and RBs were average.

So, if the Pats repeat will it be because he finally got a running game with Dillon?

I see your point - and you are by no means the only one that says that - but the guy gets it done. Sometimes it's the things he doesn't do that makes him so valuable.


yea, i dont see the overrated comparison. Brady is mobile, hasnt had a running game for the last 2 or 3 years and generally makes good decisions. with dillon coming into the mix its only going to make Brady that much better. he wont know what to do with himself now that he has a running game. ;D

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 05:52 PM
Talk about reaching, did I say "Loser"?? No, I said arrogant.....again, since when does grace and humility reflect self-doubt or a lack of belief in ones self??

Elway never said such things...he didn't have to....guess he didn't believe in himself, did he?

You didn't say loser, but they guy sure is being villified for this and I think a lot of it is unfair. This seems a little overboard to me, he's taking more heat for saying he's the best QB then Seau did for making racist and anti-gay remarks.
Maybe all Peyton needs to do is work on his cliches like Nuke LaLoosh. Then everyone would be happy.

"Gotta play 'em one game at a time"
"I'm just happy to be here, hope I can help the team"

That's all I'm trying to say. He was asked a question and he responded. Does anyone remember when Portis was on the Hot Seat?

Ron

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 05:56 PM
This is great debate stuff.

I disagree that the Pats would've won last year with 7 or 8 other possible QBs. Tom has marched us down the field so many times now at the end of games it's no fluke. Drew never had that composure.

Tom's a very cool customer and makes good decisions. Troy Brown is the only bona-fide go-to guy he had. He had no big WR to throw at and our TEs and RBs were average.

So, if the Pats repeat will it be because he finally got a running game with Dillon?

I see your point - and you are by no means the only one that says that - but the guy gets it done. Sometimes it's the things he doesn't do that makes him so valuable.

Ugghh, seeing Dillon in a Patriot uni makes that team pretty scary heading into camp. They are going to be good, very good. They have a bit of the '98 Broncos aura surrounding them. Now they are a solid team in all facets of the game.

BTW, what was all the flap with Brady and his free Caddy after winning the SB MVP about?

Ron

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 06:02 PM
Does anyone remember when Portis was on the Hot Seat?

Ron

Never thought I'd quote my own post, but here goes:

When Portis was on the Hot Seat he said................

That he was the best dressed player in the NFL

Can you believe that crap? What a jerk! zowie!

Ron

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 06:04 PM
no way. for starters, Peyton has had a much better offesive line and better wideouts than Mcnair has. secondly, there were many times when Mcnair had to get out of trouble much like John in his heyday just to avoid many sacks. Peyton has no mobility whatsover. Peyton is good, but not THAT good.


That is complete garbage. McNair has had some very good offensive lines. Brad Hopkins has been a top notch tackle who has been with him most of his career. Jon Runyan was paired up with Hopkins for several years. Bruce Mathews was on that line for many of the years. Stepnowski came in while still on top of his game. He has had some damn good O Lines. Very solid RB in George a top receiving TE in Wycheck, pro bowl WR in <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1816" target="_blank">Derrick Mason</a> and a damn good defense keeping scores down and rarely putting him in a position to have to press to keep up.

The Colts O line lead the league in sacks allowed the season before he got there. With virtually no change in the personnel they were among the best in sacks surrendered with Manning under center. Purely cause of his ability to know the offense, the opponents defense and get rid of the ball quickly. That O Line has had zero Pro Bowl players on it. T.Glenn is the closest and he isn't anything special. Manning makes those guys look good, not the other way around. A couple years ago the Colts D gave up an NFL record 31 points per game. If McNair was put in a position to where he had to try and score 32 points just to have a chance to win it would be ugly.

As for the receivers, Manning has had bums like Torrance Small, Terrence Wilkins, Jerome Pathon and journeyman chumps like that as his number 2 WR's most of his career. Harrison is all he has had. Yet the one game Harrison missed was against the Jets and Manning threw for 400 yards and won the game. In addition James blew out his knee and since then has had rookie free agents in the backfield most of the time.

If Manning were throwing to Mason and McNair to Harrison I have a hunch that Mason would be in the elite 3 of WR's instead of Harrison. That is just my opinion but your opinion about McNair having far less talent around him is factually dead wrong.

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 06:09 PM
You didn't say loser, but they guy sure is being villified for this and I think a lot of it is unfair. This seems a little overboard to me, he's taking more heat for saying he's the best QB then Seau did for making racist and anti-gay remarks.
Maybe all Peyton needs to do is work on his cliches like Nuke LaLoosh. Then everyone would be happy.

"Gotta play 'em one game at a time"
"I'm just happy to be here, hope I can help the team"

That's all I'm trying to say. He was asked a question and he responded. Does anyone remember when Portis was on the Hot Seat?

Ron

I don't like bombastic, arrogant players....everyone here knows how I felt about the Manning's and Portis's of the sports world....my disdain for that type of player is very well documented.

I do have a problem with your statements about how someone who is modest and shows grace and humility somehow has no confidence or belief in himself just because he decides to be humble and not spout off about his abilities, even if questioned about them....I don't agree with your take at all on that.

Manning lost me as a fan awhile ago for a few reasons.....I'm not denying his abilities by saying that, not by a long shot...I'm just saying that I don't care for him or his attitude.

As I said before...it wouldn't bother me at all to see him have a subpar year by throwing a lot of INTs and tasting a lot of turf this year....the only thing I like about arrogant players is watching them self-destruct on the field over the course of a season....it may not happen all that often, but all seems right with the world when it does.

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 06:16 PM
Manning lost me as a fan awhile ago for a few reasons.....I'm not denying his abilities by saying that, not by a long shot...I'm just saying that I don't care for him or his attitude.

As I said before...it wouldn't bother me at all to see him have a subpar year by throwing a lot of INTs and tasting a lot of turf this year....the only thing I like about arrogant players is watching them self-destruct on the field over the course of a season....it may not happen all that often, but all seems right with the world when it does.


Am I missing something or you drinking heavily tonight? You are taking this twisted out of context "Hot Seat" comment as him being arrogant and a "attitude" player? Manning carries himself as one of the more down to earth, classier guys in the league. You know very little about him if you think otherwise.

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 06:22 PM
Am I missing something or you drinking heavily tonight? You are taking this twisted out of context "Hot Seat" comment as him being arrogant and a "attitude" player? Manning carries himself as one of the more down to earth, classier guys in the league. You know very little about him if you think otherwise.

You're missing something.

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 06:28 PM
take away any of Peytons wideouts and plug in some average wides and see how well he does. Manning gets a LOT of help from his offense, not just a little. .


Do you watch football or just hang on on BB's and talk about subject you know painfully little about?

His primary RB's the past two years has been a slowed and bad wheeled E.James, undrafted rookie free agents James Mungro and Dominck Rhodes. His WR's consist of an excellent Marvin Harrison, a very average NFL starter in Reggie Wayne(does have potential to be very good IMO), journeyman Brandon Stokely(who has mostly been hurt) and journeyman Trent Walters.

Yeah, just take away all those "great" WR's and plug in some "average" ones and he would surely struggle. Uhh

Jason in LA
07-14-2004, 06:28 PM
I think you guys are missing the point of the hot seat. They are supposed to ask those tough questions, and they are supposed to be answered. It's like a forum for these guys to answer these type of questions and not get roasted for it. If Manning said this to some beat writers then I could see it blowing up in his face. But on this segment of the show, he's not supposed to shy away from questions. If these guys did, then what would be the point of having the hot seat?

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 06:33 PM
You're missing something.


That is for certain....intelligent comments from many people on this thread.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 06:33 PM
You can see right through the arrogant smuck.. he has got the smug billick expression at all times.. its crystal clear what he thinks of himself just by looking at him..

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 06:35 PM
I don't like bombastic, arrogant players....everyone here knows how I felt about the Manning's and Portis's of the sports world....my disdain for that type of player is very well documented.

I do have a problem with your statements about how someone who is modest and shows grace and humility somehow has no confidence or belief in himself just because he decides to be humble and not spout off about his abilities, even if questioned about them....I don't agree with your take at all on that.

Manning lost me as a fan awhile ago for a few reasons.....I'm not denying his abilities by saying that, not by a long shot...I'm just saying that I don't care for him or his attitude.

As I said before...it wouldn't bother me at all to see him have a subpar year by throwing a lot of INTs and tasting a lot of turf this year....the only thing I like about arrogant players is watching them self-destruct on the field over the course of a season....it may not happen all that often, but all seems right with the world when it does.

I'm saying that an Elite player in the NFL or most sports that are "humble" are usually lying. Sorry, maybe lying is too harsh. They are saying what they think people want them to hear by giving canned responses. It's a PR-driven world and we wouldn't want to hurt replica jersey sales.

Do you not think you are the best at what you do where you work? I do.

If I couldn't answer yes truthfully would I work on whatever was keeping me from being able to answer yes? Damn skippy.

Would I say it out loud? Probably not. Look at the crap I'd be taking for it.

If you don't have "the Fire" for what ever it is you do (NFL QB, Dog Groomer, Insurance Salesman, whatever) and the drive to succeed, then you will never reach your full potential. The cardinal sin commited here was that he said it and people overheard it. Manning is cool by me. I take him over most of the wife beatin', drug usin', 5 babies with 5 women havin' derelicts in the NFL. He's very active in the community and a stand up guy. Works for me.

Ron

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 06:35 PM
its not the comment that irritates me its his whole attitude in general

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 06:36 PM
You can see right through the arrogant smuck.. he has got the smug billick expression at all times.. its crystal clear what he thinks of himself just by looking at him..


It is quite apparent that beat down a$$ whoppin he put on you chumps in the playoffs has left an awfully nasty taste in your mouths.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 06:37 PM
I think you guys are missing the point of the hot seat. They are supposed to ask those tough questions, and they are supposed to be answered. It's like a forum for these guys to answer these type of questions and not get roasted for it. If Manning said this to some beat writers then I could see it blowing up in his face. But on this segment of the show, he's not supposed to shy away from questions. If these guys did, then what would be the point of having the hot seat?


Precisely...He could have said "I'm pretty good but there's alot of good QB's in this league" and this thread would have never existed. But where's the fun in that?

Ron

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 06:42 PM
It is quite apparent that beat down a$$ whoppin he put on you chumps in the playoffs has left an awfully nasty taste in your mouths.


I havent liked amnning for a long time.. yes I am heated about the whoopin we took but I place the blame on the broncos for that loss. Manning was hot but our d sucked..

at least we smoked them a week earlier (what about the your so called team)

The whole thing with Eli and san diego.. its just wrong. He should have been honored to play in the nfl, to get the chance to prove himself.. thats the point of the draft otherwise agents would be recruiting not the scouts..

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 06:44 PM
then to get daddy to step in and demand san diego pass him up.. the whole family is spoiled and need a good dose of tuff reality upside their head

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 06:45 PM
The whole thing with Eli and san diego.. its just wrong. He should have been honored to play in the nfl, to get the chance to prove himself.. thats the point of the draft otherwise agents would be recruiting not the scouts..

I'm looking for karma to catch up with Eli in a big way this year

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 06:48 PM
I havent liked amnning for a long time.. yes I am heated about the whoopin we took but I place the blame on the broncos for that loss. Manning was hot but our d sucked..

at least we smoked them a week earlier (what about the your so called team)

The whole thing with Eli and san diego.. its just wrong. He should have been honored to play in the nfl, to get the chance to prove himself.. thats the point of the draft otherwise agents would be recruiting not the scouts..

So how do you think Elway became a Bronco? Might be time for history lesson. Don't get me wrong, I'm overjoyed he stood up to Irsay & Kush back then, but just making a point.

Ron

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 06:49 PM
I'm looking for karma to catch up with Eli in a big way this year

me to.. but of cource he will just call daddy to come in and bench warner cuz its not fair! little eli wants to play! boo hoo hoo

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 06:51 PM
The whole thing with Eli and san diego.. its just wrong. He should have been honored to play in the nfl, to get the chance to prove himself.. thats the point of the draft otherwise agents would be recruiting not the scouts..


There are NFL players have brothers in prison for various horrible crimes. I don't hold that against them, I'm sure the hell not going to judge Peyton cause his brother didn't want to play for the Bolts. Considering Marty's recent history with QB's I don't blame him for not wanting to play for them either. A $hit OL, zero at WR and a well below average defense. And then have to listen to guys like you talk about how horrible a pick he was.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 06:52 PM
yes I know the story I was young then and didnt even know the rules of draft.. I look back and I am glad we got him but yet I dont agree with..oh well at least he didnt call his dad to try and pull strings for him.. and he had a legitimate excuse.. Indiana sucks

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 06:54 PM
So how do you think Elway became a Bronco? Might be time for history lesson. Don't get me wrong, I'm overjoyed he stood up to Irsay & Kush back then, but just making a point.

Ron


Come on Ron, they are men of principles....when it's convenient.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 06:55 PM
yes I know the story I was young then and didnt even know the rules of draft.. I look back and I am glad we got him but yet I dont agree with..oh well at least he didnt call his dad to try and pull strings for him.. and he had a legitimate excuse.. Indiana sucks

Sigh...History lesson #2 the Colts were in Baltimore in 1983.

So to recap: Not wanting to play for the team that drafts you is cool as long as he's your (and my) favorite player of all time BUT not cool if he's the brother of someone you have an axe to grind with?

Just Checking

Ron

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 06:55 PM
[QUOTE=NaptownChief]There are NFL players have brothers in prison for various horrible crimes. I don't hold that against them, I'm sure the hell not going to judge Peyton cause his brother didn't want to play for the Bolts. Considering Marty's recent history with QB's I don't blame him for not wanting to play for them either. A $hit OL, zero at WR and a well below average defense. And then have to listen to guys like you talk about how horrible a pick he was.[/QUOTE

Again thats the point of the draft... to build your team player by player.. sd could have been looking for him to be the future to start the rebuilding process and to get that oportunity taken away because eli was crying is not fare to sd or the nfl

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 06:55 PM
yes I know the story I was young then and didnt even know the rules of draft.. I look back and I am glad we got him but yet I dont agree with..oh well at least he didnt call his dad to try and pull strings for him.. and he had a legitimate excuse.. Indiana sucks


Allright snot nose...you need to go pick up a few recent history books, especially about football then come back and run your yap when you are a little older. The Colts were in Baltimore then...so I guess you don't know the story too well.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 06:58 PM
Sigh...History lesson #2 the Colts were in Baltimore in 1983.


BTW, Baltimore is in Maryland which is what we commonly refer to as a "state". This and other fascinating information can be found in what are called "books."

Ron

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 07:00 PM
Sigh...History lesson #2 the Colts were in Baltimore in 1983.

So to recap: Not wanting to play for the team that drafts you is cool as long as he's your (and my) favorite player of all time BUT not cool if he's the brother of someone you have an axe to grind with?

Just Checking

Ron


sorry ron but I dont apreciate your condescending tone.. and like I said, I dont agree with it no matter who the player is or who he wants to be drafted by it compremises the integrity of the draft and the evolution of the nfl.. thanks for the history lesson though.. indianamore who gives a f its not the point

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 07:01 PM
yeah you guys are too smart for me.. im glad you know what state baltimore is in can you bring anymore knowledge to the table..

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 07:03 PM
I made a mistake on the city the colts were in.. thats not the point.. why are you two hangin from the pm's dills any way.. not like he apriciates it

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 07:07 PM
sorry ron but I dont apreciate your condescending tone.. and like I said, I dont agree with it no matter who the player is or who he wants to be drafted by it compremises the integrity of the draft and the evolution of the nfl.. thanks for the history lesson though.. indianamore who gives a f its not the point


Well I don't appreciate hypocrisy or someone using the acts of a person's sibling as a basis for disliking a person. It is quite simple. You don't like him, you have no legitimate reason for disliking him. The good news is you don't have to have a legitimate reason as this is American and you are provided that freedom. No need to scramble for excuses.

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 07:09 PM
Year Team Comp Att Comp% Yds Yd/Att TD INT Sacked-Yds Rating
1983 Den 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 28- 218 54.9

Elway had a horrible first year in the NFL......karma caught up with him, penance was served.

Whether or not Eli can overcome that O-line he'll be playing behind along with the scruitny of the NYC media remains to be seen.

Just a guess here, but I don't think it's going to be very pretty initially

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 07:10 PM
Let the record show that I hate <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253" target="_blank">Michael Vick</a> because his brother has been arrested 3 times this past year. ;D

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 07:19 PM
If Manning were throwing to Mason and McNair to Harrison I have a hunch that Mason would be in the elite 3 of WR's instead of Harrison. That is just my opinion but your opinion about McNair having far less talent around him is factually dead wrong.

Watching Nappy grovel at Manning's feet is always good for a laugh, but I would hate for this particular paragraph to be lost amid all the acrimony and backbiting on this thread.

Today Nappy tried to tell us that Derrick Mason and Marvin Harrison are basically the same guy, but Marvin lucked out and got drafted by a team with Peyton Manning.

I can hardly wait to see what he comes up with next.......:hitself:

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 07:20 PM
Well I don't appreciate hypocrisy or someone using the acts of a person's sibling as a basis for disliking a person. It is quite simple. You don't like him, you have no legitimate reason for disliking him. The good news is you don't have to have a legitimate reason as this is American and you are provided that freedom. No need to scramble for excuses.


I dont know what world you are livng in (or ground hog hole) but I can tell you havent had much interaction with society.. little advice dont ever venture to the city.. you would be a hustlers cherry.. you can make all the comment s you like about why you think I dont like manning but I know people and that guy would run your ass off the road and flip you the bird while doing it.. get off his nut$

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 07:24 PM
It is quite apparent that beat down a$$ whoppin he put on you chumps in the playoffs has left an awfully nasty taste in your mouths.

No it's not that. I'm still pretty sore about it. But I'm not going to say something
like "Peyton would suck if he didn't have Harrison". I guess that's the difference between me and Zyclon.

Spider
07-14-2004, 07:24 PM
Wow this realy went off to the side ...........
The whole Elway thing was a mess , I am Glad we got him , The Raiders were bidding also and if Pete Rozzell didnt hate Al Davis , the Elway story could have been alot different .........
One theory I have why Elway didnt want to play in Baltless , was Johnny Unitias .......
Of Course Eli didnt have that curse in San Diego ......... Unless of Course Stan Humphries and Dan Fouts are a legend in those Parts ......

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 07:27 PM
Watching Nappy grovel at Manning's feet is always good for a laugh, but I would hate for this particular paragraph to be lost amid all the acrimony and backbiting on this thread.

Today Nappy tried to tell us that <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1816" target="_blank">Derrick Mason</a> and <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1231" target="_blank">Marvin Harrison</a> are basically the same guy, but Marvin lucked out and got drafted by a team with <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a>.

I can hardly wait to see what he comes up with next.......:hitself:

Don't forget Peyton made Marcus Nash an All-American.

Spider
07-14-2004, 07:27 PM
I wouldnt say Manning Sucks ,I think he makes harrison as much as Harrison makes him , Like I say Manning doesnt let the game flow , he holds his Oline set way to long ....
His Handoffs to Edge are to far out , seriously that is just too far of a handoff ....
Like I said Manning is the best pure Passer in the NFL , Manning isnt the best Game manager .........

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 07:27 PM
Wow this realy went off to the side ...........
The whole Elway thing was a mess , I am Glad we got him , The Raiders were bidding also and if Pete Rozzell didnt hate Al Davis , the Elway story could have been alot different .........
One theory I have why Elway didnt want to play in Baltless , was Johnny Unitias .......
Of Course Eli didnt have that curse in San Diego ......... Unless of Course Stan Humphries and Dan Fouts are a legend in those Parts ......

Dan Fouts is a legend in San Diego and rightly so, and what exactly are you trying to say here? That Elway didn't want to play in Baltimore following a great QB like Johnny Unitas?

You better think about retracting that one before the dogpile commences.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 07:29 PM
Let the record show that I hate <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253" target="_blank">Michael Vick</a></a> because his brother has been arrested 3 times this past year. ;D


its funnny you have to search back to all my post to try and find somthing new to say..

Spider
07-14-2004, 07:30 PM
Dan Fouts is a legend and rightly so, and what exactly are you trying to say here? That Elway didn't want to play in Baltimore following a great QB like Johnny Unitas?

You better think about retracting that one before the dogpile commences.
LOL I can handle the dog pile Bro .......
I agree about Fouts , Fouts could have been one of the best WCO QB if he had a defense to back him ................
Now for Elway ...... What I mean is I dont think Elway wanted the Comparing to Unitias Year in Year out ..........

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 07:33 PM
Now for Elway ...... What I mean is I dont think Elway wanted the Comparing to Unitias Year in Year out ..........

Unitas or Bert Jones? Ha!

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 07:35 PM
its funnny you have to search back to all my post to try and find somthing new to say..

I haven't ever had any disagreements with you before. But it's clear that one wouldn't have to search very far back to find something new to say.

Spider
07-14-2004, 07:35 PM
Unitas or Bert Jones? Ha!
LOL ....... Yeah that Bert Joones left some big Shoes to fill ;D
I wonder though if Bert had stayed Healthy ........

Spider
07-14-2004, 07:38 PM
I will cut vnillathunda some slack ........
He wasnt too far off , Besides it is great that younger guys want to talk Ball and learn Broncos History ..........

CHIEF TEX
07-14-2004, 07:41 PM
Dan Patrick asked him on that hot seat thing they do on sportscenter.

Peyton said if I didn't say I was you'd say, oh c'mon Peyton, you can say yourself.

so he did say himself.

hard to argue, overall he is probably the best right now. He doesn't have the best team around him, but I'd take him over Jake.

That is EXACTLY how it went as I was watching as well. It did NOT appear that Manning was being cocky in any way. He just gave his opinion. And, I agree that it's very hard to argue against him being the best.

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 07:43 PM
I haven't ever had any disagreements with you before. But it's clear that one wouldn't have to search very far back to find something new to say.


shht it seems like when ever anyone has something to say someone has to try and jump on it an disect it and then try to use somethin irrelevent to the point to make an argument.. all anyone has said about my post is what state is baltimore in or vick s brother blah blah blah.. thank for takin a quief's fan side anyways oz nice to hear some feedback from someone who wasntsayin squat earlier..

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 07:46 PM
I dont know what world you are livng in (or ground hog hole) but I can tell you havent had much interaction with society.. little advice dont ever venture to the city..


If I were to take advice from the snot nosed kid who thought Baltimore was in Indiana that would probably make me dumb enough to be a Raider fan....or to think David Carr is already the 3rd best QB in the league.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 07:46 PM
Year Team Comp Att Comp% Yds Yd/Att TD INT Sacked-Yds Rating
1983 Den 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 28- 218 54.9

Elway had a horrible first year in the NFL......karma caught up with him, penance was served.

Whether or not Eli can overcome that O-line he'll be playing behind along with the scruitny of the NYC media remains to be seen.

Just a guess here, but I don't think it's going to be very pretty initially

He will struggle, no doubt. All rookie QB's do, especially when thrown to the wolves on below average teams. His big brother did throw for 3700 yds his rookie season, and they still went 3-13.

Ron

Spider
07-14-2004, 07:48 PM
If I were to take advice from the snot nosed kid who thought Baltimore was in Indiana that would probably make me dumb enough to be a Raider fan....or to think <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268" target="_blank">David Carr</a> is already the 3rd best QB in the league.
Ha! you Make Raider fans Look Smart ...........
I would want Carr on the Broncos ....... are you just hurt I didnt put TrINT Green on my short list ?

Northman
07-14-2004, 07:52 PM
Do you watch football or just hang on on BB's and talk about subject you know painfully little about?

His primary RB's the past two years has been a slowed and bad wheeled E.James, undrafted rookie free agents James Mungro and Dominck Rhodes. His WR's consist of an excellent <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1231" target="_blank">Marvin Harrison</a>, a very average NFL starter in <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235256" target="_blank">Reggie Wayne</a>(does have potential to be very good IMO), journeyman Brandon Stokely(who has mostly been hurt) and journeyman Trent Walters.

Yeah, just take away all those "great" WR's and plug in some "average" ones and he would surely struggle. Uhh


obviously, you know two things about football. Jack and ****.

Northman
07-14-2004, 07:53 PM
Ha! you Make Raider fans Look Smart ...........
I would want Carr on the Broncos ....... are you just hurt I didnt put TrINT Green on my short list ?



he's just hurt cause of the ass whoopin we laid on him and the fact that his team cant get to the dance. typical troll fashion for this flavor clown.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 07:53 PM
thank for takin a quief's fan side anyways oz nice to hear some feedback from someone who wasntsayin squat earlier..

Further proof of what I said. I was the 3rd person to reply to this thread. I have at least 15-20 of the posts on this thread. Do you read much? You yourself said you have a grudge against Peyton. I'm not taking the side of the quiefs I'm taking the side of knowledge.

Spider
07-14-2004, 07:54 PM
he's just hurt cause of the ass whoopin we laid on him and the fact that his team cant get to the dance. typical troll fashion for this flavor clown.
LOL .......... He is a Pissy one

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 07:55 PM
Ha! you Make Raider fans Look Smart ...........
I would want Carr on the Broncos ....... are you just hurt I didnt put TrINT Green on my short list ?


Spide,

I shot wads on girls backs that had more brain cells than all the folks in Wyoming combined.

You put <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268" target="_blank">David Carr</a> ahead of Manning as the top present QB's. That is a strong candidate for the dumbest post in OrangeMane history and that is saying a bunch. I really like Carr and think he has a bright future but that doesn't take away from the idiocy of your post. If you were saying you think he will be that good in the future would be one thing but to say he is there now doesn't even deserve the bandwidth you wasted.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 07:58 PM
I dont know what world you are livng in (or ground hog hole) but I can tell you havent had much interaction with society.. little advice dont ever venture to the city.. you would be a hustlers cherry.. you can make all the comment s you like about why you think I dont like manning but I know people and that guy would run your ass off the road and flip you the bird while doing it.. get off his nut$

Is this english? So Peyton Manning tried to run you off the road and flip you the bird? Is this why you have a vendetta against his whole family?

Ron

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 07:58 PM
I'm not taking the side of the quiefs I'm taking the side of knowledge.


He thinks knowledge is a city in Indiana.

Spider
07-14-2004, 08:03 PM
Spide,

I shot wads on girls backs that had more brain cells than all the folks in Wyoming combined.

You put <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268" target="_blank">David Carr</a></a> ahead of Manning as the top present QB's. That is a strong candidate for the dumbest post in OrangeMane history and that is saying a bunch. I really like Carr and think he has a bright future but that doesn't take away from the idiocy of your post. If you were saying you think he will be that good in the future would be one thing but to say he is there now doesn't even deserve the bandwidth you wasted.
Not at all .......... Hell lets face it , Manning has been given alot of weapons on Offense , Carr hasnt , Now when I rank QB's in the right now terms , I rank them as far as Potiental , and Dispite your idiotic views , if Carr had the Coaching Plummer has or even TrINT Green , Carr would be blowing past Manning ....... There is More to a QB then Passing Yards , For example Carr Grew up alot after week 9 in that Game vs the Panthers ......
Now you might be impressed with Dom Capers offensive skill , but without his Zone blitz his coaching leaves alot to be desired .......
Now Carr Kept his team in alot of Games , I know that means nothing to you , and that Stats with you tell the whole story .............

Spider
07-14-2004, 08:04 PM
Oh and Nappy , those Girls wasnt realy girls BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 08:05 PM
Further proof of what I said. I was the 3rd person to reply to this thread. I have at least 15-20 of the posts on this thread. Do you read much? You yourself said you have a grudge against Peyton. I'm not taking the side of the quiefs I'm taking the side of knowledge.

no disrespect oz just a little wound up..

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 08:08 PM
Is this english? So <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a></a> tried to run you off the road and flip you the bird? Is this why you have a vendetta against his whole family?

Ron


lol thats exactly what I am talkin about. you take a simily about a persons character and you try to use that as a basis for your argument..

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 08:09 PM
lol thats exactly what I am talkin about. you take a simily about a persons character and you try to use that as a basic for your argument..

that would be pretty funny if that was the reason i didnt like him though

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 08:10 PM
Leftwich will be a much better pro QB than Carr. This is just my opinion, so please don't go on for another 7 pages about how wrong I am :)

Ron

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 08:10 PM
Oh and Nappy , those Girls wasnt realy girls BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA





Spide,

Just cause you aren't familar with vaginas that aren't attached to something wooly and goes Baaaaaaaah on a regular basis doesn't mean they aren't women.

Is that why you are alway putting BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA in your posts cause it sounds so close to what you are use to? BAAAAAAAAAH, BAAAAAAAAAH. I'm sure it gets lonely out there but damn...give those creatures a break.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 08:13 PM
lol thats exactly what I am talkin about. you take a simily about a persons character and you try to use that as a basic for your argument..

Can someone translate this for me?

You haven't provided one single statement related to football as to why you feel the way you do about Peyton. You are the one saying he'd run you off the road. Give us something to think about, try to be loosely football related and please try to do it in English this time.

Ron

Spider
07-14-2004, 08:14 PM
Leftwich will be a much better pro QB than Carr. This is just my opinion, so please don't go on for another 7 pages about how wrong I am :)

Ron
I wouldnt Put Leftwich above Carr right now , But Leftwich has a ton of upside .....Leftwich rookie year was impressive

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 08:14 PM
LOL I can handle the dog pile Bro .......
I agree about Fouts , Fouts could have been one of the best WCO QB if he had a defense to back him ................
Now for Elway ...... What I mean is I dont think Elway wanted the Comparing to Unitias Year in Year out ..........

I'm going to have to lay an old Lithuanian curse on you for daring to question Elway's grapes like that, so, just be advised.

Spider
07-14-2004, 08:15 PM
Spide,

Just cause you aren't familar with vaginas that aren't attached to something wooly and goes Baaaaaaaah on a regular basis doesn't mean they aren't women.

Is that why you are alway putting BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA in your posts cause it sounds so close to what you are use to? BAAAAAAAAAH, BAAAAAAAAAH. I'm sure it gets lonely out there but damn...give those creatures a break.
Oh we both Know you can relate to BWAAAAAAAA .....After all you did say backside of women .........

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 08:16 PM
LOL ....... Yeah that Bert Joones left some big Shoes to fill ;D
I wonder though if Bert had stayed Healthy ........

Actually, Bert Jones looks like he could be related to Elway. Got the same prominent choppers. He was a pretty damn good quarterback. Too hotheaded, though.

Spider
07-14-2004, 08:16 PM
I'm going to have to lay an old Lithuanian curse on you for daring to question Elway's grapes like that, so, just be advised.
LOL ....... I am advised ..

vnillathunda
07-14-2004, 08:17 PM
Spide,

I shot wads on girls backs that had more brain cells than all the folks in Wyoming combined.

You put <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268" target="_blank">David Carr</a></a> ahead of Manning as the top present QB's. That is a strong candidate for the dumbest post in OrangeMane history and that is saying a bunch. I really like Carr and think he has a bright future but that doesn't take away from the idiocy of your post. If you were saying you think he will be that good in the future would be one thing but to say he is there now doesn't even deserve the bandwidth you wasted.

I can see you prairie folk have alot of respect for women out there

Spider
07-14-2004, 08:18 PM
Actually, Bert Jones looks like he could be related to Elway. Got the same prominent choppers. He was a pretty damn good quarterback. Too hotheaded, though.
I agree...... I wonder how is career would have been if not for the Neck injury , Jones was a hellva lot better then Deburg thats for sure

watermock
07-14-2004, 08:19 PM
Just what jocks need, some ESPN clown in this new "Hot Seat" that Disney cooked up to make Athletes look foolish by throwing them rediculous questions rapid fire. From what I understand, he was goaded into the comment anyway. Chalk another one up for a network that has steadily become more and more rediculous despite more game programming.

Even Berman has seemed to become infected, complaining that a particuliar home run didn't allow him to say "Back Back Back" only three times, like that isn't worn out enough allready.

Then we had to listen to "Booya" a million times before Stewie seems to have put in the closet.

I am not even going near the incredibly hostile new NBA analyst who appears mad at the whole world, or, well, part of it.

What was so wrong with Peyton saying he was the best? I don't think he's that awesome, but who's better? He had a pretty crappy year when Griese went to the pro bowl if I remember right.

And Peyton stomping his foot and waving around like a lunatic in false audibles has stopped making teams go out of the proper defense.

Finally, the team spent way too much money on his contract. Agents and players keep thinking that salaries will keep going up like they did in the past. When Harrison's contract comes up, who is going to pay for it? The NFL doesn't have a luxury tax, thank God.

And another poster is right, Manning is horrible on play action and likes to hold the ball too long. He's a fine QB for sure so whatever. Both Elway, Marino and Favre were all better in their prime IMO.

Some of the backlash against Peyton revolves around his 38 million signing bonus which is rediculous, and Grandpa Archie down in the Bayou who is totally clueless at this point and made Eli look like a spoiled brat.

I don't know exactly what the imperitive to play for New York that has a bad team, bad weather, and a tyranical coach in Coughlin.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 08:33 PM
Times are changing, its a new erra in football, why would you not want a mobile qb?

might wna let the last 5 superbowl champions know that the times have changed. they must have missed the memo.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 08:35 PM
Manning has Harrison and Edge, but his playoff record is deplorable. McNabb has had a collection of garbage at the skill positions on offense and he gets to the NFC Championship Game every year.

You probably thought Marino was better than Elway, too. Stats shake out about the same in both cases.

manning's #'s will most likely not move when harrison leaves, and even when edge leaves. harrison's #'s will drop w/o manning.

and mcnabb has laid eggs before too, that INT in the 4th quarter against the bucs was a pretty big egg. and the eagles-mcnabb have been far more talented than the colts-manning.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 08:37 PM
I'd take Jake's attitude over Peyton's anyday!

which attitude is that? his winning attitude, his tireless work ethic, or his feeling of responsibility towards the outcome of every game?
hell manning takes it hard when they get stuffed on a run play!

yavoon
07-14-2004, 08:40 PM
delhomme actually had better playoff stats.

I wouldn't argue with him, though I'd take Brady or McNabb over him, and I suspect Vick and ... Leftwich .... and his lil bro will give him a challange. And, if Plummer can stay healthy for a year, while he may not have as many passing yards, I think Plummer might turn into a better qb. I like manning as a qb, but the fact is he doesn't make plays. His game is dependent upon his oline and his wrs. Twasnt so of Faver and Elway, and Montana could make plays all by his lonesome, and Peyton ain't in that class of competitor.

this is the biggest load of crap ever. out of all the ppl u named only vick could do more w/ less and I'd prolly debate that too. manning could throw for 400 yards w/ college starters if he's on. when manning is on its lights out.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 08:44 PM
no way. for starters, Peyton has had a much better offesive line and better wideouts than Mcnair has. secondly, there were many times when Mcnair had to get out of trouble much like John in his heyday just to avoid many sacks. Peyton has no mobility whatsover. Peyton is good, but not THAT good.

it makes sense a broncos board would think mobility is the key to overperforming or "carrying" a team. u know actually MAKING THE THROWS U SHOULD, is far more important to winning than avoiding a few sacks or pulling a play out of ur ass.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 08:47 PM
Sorry Yavoon most of the kidies talking sh*t about Peyton have gone to bed. You're talking to a deaf ear man.

Tredici
07-14-2004, 08:49 PM
Peyton Manning practices and practices. He wants to execute a game plan to perfection. He often succeeds. However, that perfectionist attitude doesn't help when the game plan starts going awry. Then he is prone to frustration and making poor decisions. He has shown the ability to get back on track and make the comeback, but not consistently enough to trust he has the mental toughness to get back on his game. Once he does that, he will be as complete of QB as you could ask for. Little more mobility would be nice, but doesn't seem to have made much difference at this point.

I also admire David Carr. Getting busted for 70+ sacks his rookie year, well, the guy is tough. He is a leader, personable and loads of talent. I hope Dominick Davis continues to improve and takes some pressure off the guy.

Also want to see how Herrington looks this year after more time working with Mooch. That kid is a gamer and very talented. I hope to see his game step up, too.

Another youngster headed in the right direction is Pennington.

I'd take any of those last three guys in Shanahan's system.

As for Indianapolis? I wish we would've gotten their liquoured up idiot kicker....

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 08:50 PM
Goddamn, you sound like you have a serious man crush on him, Ozo.

Were you jealous of that chick when he showed her his ass?

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 08:56 PM
Goddamn, you sound like you have a serious man crush on him, Ozo.

Were you jealous of that chick when he showed her his ass?

Oh! So very jealous! :~ohyah!:

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 09:00 PM
How dare you not gargle the nuts of Peyton Manning slap??, He's the kiss stealin', wheelin' dealin', limo ridin', stylin', profilin', football flingin', self-professed greatest QB in the game today!! Woooooooo!!! rofl

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 09:02 PM
How dare you not gargle the nuts of <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> slap??, He's the kiss stealin', wheelin' dealin', limo ridin', stylin', profilin', football flingin', self-professed greatest QB in the game today!! Woooooooo!!! rofl

Oh yeah! You feelin it now right Hogan? You already said you dislike the guy :alky:

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 09:03 PM
How dare you not gargle the nuts of <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> slap??, He's the kiss stealin', wheelin' dealin', limo ridin', stylin', profilin', football flingin', self-professed greatest QB in the game today!! Woooooooo!!! rofl


Yeah, all the same, the whole nut gargling thing, even metaphorically, I'm a little uncomfortable with that.

Hogan11
07-14-2004, 09:07 PM
Oh yeah! You feelin it now right Hogan? You already said you dislike the guy :alky:

Yeah, that'll be the day......I was being sarcastic.

ozomulsion
07-14-2004, 09:09 PM
Yeah, that'll be the day......I was being sarcastic.

So was I.

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 09:09 PM
Besides, Donovan McNabb is just as squeaky clean off the field and he handles controversy with lots of class. For example, the Philly fans stupidly booing him on Draft Day and Rush kicking him while he was down last year.

http://espn.starwave.com/i/nfl/profiles/players/statsid/s4650.jpg

And lets see Peyton dunk over the crossbar.......:approve:

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 09:21 PM
Dan Fouts is a legend in San Diego and rightly so, and what exactly are you trying to say here? That Elway didn't want to play in Baltimore following a great QB like Johnny Unitas?

You better think about retracting that one before the dogpile commences.

Elway didn't want to play in Baltimore because Frank Kush was the coach and Elway despised Kush. Plain and simple.

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 09:26 PM
Quite a few guys have more throwing ability than Brady, but I'll take Tom anyday. We lived through the Bledsoe/Brady thing ad nauseum around here.

We know Drew has a stronger arm. Unfortunately, he's still connected to that head and feet. And he always tried to force that 1 more pass that always killed us.

Tom makes better decisions. And the comparisons to Montana are definitely there and hold some water. Marino was a better passer than Montana, but Joe got it done..... and done well under pressure.

I think Manning has some Bledsoe in him in that he tries to do too much himself. And he has more offensive help than Drew ever had.

I'd take Brady right near the top
He has the intangibles and now he has 2 rings. He's a leader and sometimes that is more valuable than being a great QB. He's a winner.

Spider
07-14-2004, 09:31 PM
Elway didn't want to play in Baltimore because Frank Kush was the coach and Elway despised Kush. Plain and simple.
I dont buy that . Not for a second....... Kush was gone halfway through the 84 season , and I think the Colts would have fired Kush if Elway said I will come if Kush is gone ...............
I think it ran deeper then that

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 09:34 PM
McNabb left it all on the field against Car. But, to be fair, I saw Peyton actually run and give himself up for a first down two years ago. I'd give them both the ok for being tough. McNabb can make plays on his own, while Manning makes better throws. But Manning isn't in the staubach, montana, elway, faver class. Unitas didn't move very well, and he was possibly the toughest I've seen.

I never had the pleasure of seeing Unitas, but I've seen Elway and to me he was the toughest QB out there. He's taken so many hits and got up and kept coming back. For a while he had very high sack numbers against him...

Also, didn't Elway have the skinniest arms you've ever seen on a guy who could throw so hard?

Tredici
07-14-2004, 09:37 PM
I dont buy that . Not for a second....... Kush was gone halfway through the 84 season , and I think the Colts would have fired Kush if Elway said I will come if Kush is gone ...............
I think it ran deeper then that

You can throw in the "Daddy's boy" stuff, too, because Jack Elway was also influential where John signed. And yes, Frank Kush was a part of the problem with Baltimore. He had coached at Arizona while John was at Stanford and Elway Sr. despised him. This was known. If Baltimore was going to concede him as coach, seems like they could've indicated that prior to the draft.

It wasn't just Kush, it was also Irsay. The way he loaded up the vans in the dead of night and slunk out of Baltimore says enough about his character.

The biggest difference in Elway's situation is he was legitimately talented in another sport and had been drafted by the Yankees. He could've played baseball. He did have options.

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 09:37 PM
And lets see Peyton dunk over the crossbar.......:approve:



Unfortunately for guys like you and the media that is more important than being able to read a defense and hit a WR in stride.

Maybe if he worked a little more on trying to complete at least 60% of his passes instead of dunking over the cross bar he might someday break 3400 yards passing and sneak over 20 passing TD's again. But then again Ozzie Smith got in on the first ballot cause of popularity from a back flip so maybe dunking over the cross bar is more important.

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 09:38 PM
I dont buy that . Not for a second....... Kush was gone halfway through the 84 season , and I think the Colts would have fired Kush if Elway said I will come if Kush is gone ...............
I think it ran deeper then that


but Elway didn't know Kush would be gone.

Spider
07-14-2004, 09:42 PM
You can throw in the "Daddy's boy" stuff, too, because Jack Elway was also influential where John signed. And yes, Frank Kush was a part of the problem with Baltimore. He had coached at Arizona while John was at Stanford and Elway Sr. despised him. This was known. If Baltimore was going to concede him as coach, seems like they could've indicated that prior to the draft.

It wasn't just Kush, it was also Irsay. The way he loaded up the vans in the dead of night and slunk out of Baltimore says enough about his character.

The biggest difference in Elway's situation is he was legitimately talented in another sport and had been drafted by the Yankees. He could've played baseball. He did have options.
That could Be , I am just thankfull Rozzell Hated Davis ;D
your are 100% correct on the baseball , Rozell wasnt going to lose what he thought was the best thing for the NFL to Baseball .........
I wold love to have been in the meetings back then and the fight for Elway ....

Spider
07-14-2004, 09:43 PM
but Elway didn't know Kush would be gone.
That could be , Like I said it was just a theory .......

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 10:18 PM
Unfortunately for guys like you and the media that is more important than being able to read a defense and hit a WR in stride.

Maybe if he worked a little more on trying to complete at least 60% of his passes instead of dunking over the cross bar he might someday break 3400 yards passing and sneak over 20 passing TD's again. But then again Ozzie Smith got in on the first ballot cause of popularity from a back flip so maybe dunking over the cross bar is more important.

What's important to guys like me are wins. Donovan's team has been more successful than Peyton's over the same time period and he's done it with less talented offensive teammates.

Guys like you are all about personal statistics. I'm sure after they were both in the League for about five or six years you were telling everybody who would listen that Marino was better than Elway. We saw how that one played out.

Exile_In_SJ
07-14-2004, 10:19 PM
I would have loved to hear Al Davis when he learned Denver was gonna get Elway, that must have been great

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 10:24 PM
I would have loved to hear Al Davis when he learned Denver was gonna get Elway, that must have been great

Oh, hell yeah.......:yep:

yavoon
07-14-2004, 10:27 PM
What's important to guys like me are wins. Donovan's team has been more successful than Peyton's over the same time period and he's done it with less talented offensive teammates.

Guys like you are all about personal statistics. I'm sure after they were both in the League for about five or six years you were telling everybody who would listen that Marino was better than Elway. We saw how that one played out.

donovans team has been more talented over the same period than peyton.

unless of course u want to just compare offenses, and then peytons team has been more successful.

notice in both instances the side w/ more talent(eagles overall, colts offensively) ended up doing better.

also the eagles dont lack talent offensively, they lack wr's. they have a plethora of nice lineman, a good rb, good te, good backup qb.

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 10:28 PM
What's important to guys like me are wins. Donovan's team has been more successful than Peyton's over the same time period and he's done it with less talented offensive teammates.




And vastly superior defensive talent....

QB's can only control themselves and the offensive players around them and Manning is leaps and bounds beyond McNadd. The next QB that can control his own teams defensive ability will be the first I have ever seen.

Philly has had more playoff success because of their defense, plain and simple. Indy has made it to the playoffs despite their defense not because of them.

Based on your thinking Trent Dilfer is an elite QB.

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 10:29 PM
I would have loved to hear Al Davis when he learned Denver was gonna get Elway, that must have been great

I imagine he probably had the underling who gave him the bad news dragged out back and killed. Then he probably told Al LoCasale he better get the body disposed of quickly if he knew what was good for him.

Then other vile and unspeakable acts, unsuitable to describe in a public forum.

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 10:37 PM
And vastly superior defensive talent....

QB's can only control themselves and the offensive players around them and Manning is leaps and bounds beyond McNadd. The next QB that can control his own teams defensive ability will be the first I have ever seen.

Philly has had more playoff success because of their defense, plain and simple. Indy has made it to the playoffs despite their defense not because of them.

Based on your thinking Trent Dilfer is an elite QB.

Nice logic. Dilfer had one playoff run where he was completely carried by the best defense of the last ten years.

McNabb's team has advanced in the playoffs all four years he's been a starter.

Manning finally won a playoff game last year, his sixth season in the League. As recently as 2002, a completely healthy Peyton Manning got waxed by an ordinary NY Jets team 41-0 in the first round of the playoffs. Is that some kind of freaking joke?

yavoon
07-14-2004, 10:39 PM
Nice logic. Dilfer had one playoff run where he was completely carried by the best defense of the last ten years.

McNabb's team has advanced in the playoffs all four years he's been a starter.

Manning finally won a playoff game last year, his sixth season in the League. As recently as 2002, a completely healthy <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> got waxed by an ordinary NY Jets team 41-0 in the first round of the playoffs. Is that some kind of freaking joke?

eagles>colts
manning>mcnabb

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 10:47 PM
yavoon's opinion < hill of beans

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 10:49 PM
eagles>colts
manning>mcnabb

He seems to lose track of that doesn't he....I don't think the Eagles D has given up 41 points in a game while McNadd has been QB.

He seems to think 3 or 4 failed runs is better than one successful one also. On one hand it is fine to belittle a middle of the road QB for being carried by a defense yet on the other hand he is fine with giving a middle of the road QB the credit for the success of a good defense.

The only difference between Dilfer and McNadd is the defense carrying Dilfer was a little bit better than the one that has been carrying McNadd. It will take a Baltimore Super Bowl D for McNadd to ever have a chance at getting that ring. We saw what he could do last year early on with a banged up less than stellar D bailing him out. It wasn't pretty.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 10:54 PM
He seems to lose track of that doesn't he....I don't think the Eagles D has given up 41 points in a game while McNadd has been QB.

He seems to think 3 or 4 failed runs is better than one successful one also. On one hand it is fine to belittle a middle of the road QB for being carried by a defense yet on the other hand he is fine with giving a middle of the road QB the credit for the success of a good defense.

The only difference between Dilfer and McNadd is the defense carrying Dilfer was a little bit better than the one that has been carrying McNadd. It will take a Baltimore Super Bowl D for McNadd to ever have a chance at getting that ring. We saw what he could do last year early on with a banged up less than stellar D bailing him out. It wasn't pretty.

aren't eagles backup qb's undefeated?

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 11:02 PM
aren't eagles backup qb's undefeated?


I believe so...and definitely better numbers. That system and defense made 5th round pick and college back up AJ Feely look damn good. Same crap about McNair meaning so much to his team and they would be nothing without him yet they went 2-0 this year with out of the league Neil O'Donnell and Billy Volek for gawdsakes. People can be made to believe anything...despite the facts.

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 11:05 PM
aren't eagles backup qb's undefeated?

but that is because they have high caliber back ups like Koy"Paper Boy"Detmer and AJ " I couldn't even start at Oregon" Feely.

NaptownChief
07-14-2004, 11:06 PM
aren't eagles backup qb's undefeated?


That might just display how great McNadd really is....He is so great that he can will a victory from the sidelines even with no experience bums under center. Now that I think about it he is great.

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 11:09 PM
He seems to lose track of that doesn't he....I don't think the Eagles D has given up 41 points in a game while McNadd has been QB.

He seems to think 3 or 4 failed runs is better than one successful one also. On one hand it is fine to belittle a middle of the road QB for being carried by a defense yet on the other hand he is fine with giving a middle of the road QB the credit for the success of a good defense.

The only difference between Dilfer and McNadd is the defense carrying Dilfer was a little bit better than the one that has been carrying McNadd. It will take a Baltimore Super Bowl D for McNadd to ever have a chance at getting that ring. We saw what he could do last year early on with a banged up less than stellar D bailing him out. It wasn't pretty.


Okay, so the Philly defense was only slightly less ferocious than the 2000 Ravens defense and Trent Dilfer is roughly equal to Donovan McNabb.

From the man who claimed Derrick Mason and Marvin Harrison are essentially the same guy.

Ever consider approaching an argument honestly? Or is the man crush on Peyton simply too intense?

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 11:12 PM
I believe so...and definitely better numbers. That system and defense made 5th round pick and college back up AJ Feely look damn good. Same crap about McNair meaning so much to his team and they would be nothing without him yet they went 2-0 this year with out of the league Neil O'Donnell and <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/188108" target="_blank">Billy Volek</a> for gawdsakes. People can be made to believe anything...despite the facts.


Like the fact that Manning took six years to win a playoff game and has never got anywhere near a Super Bowl, but people are already calling him an all time great?

You're right. Mass hype-nosis at its best. Thanks for participating.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 11:19 PM
Like the fact that Manning took six years to win a playoff game and has never got anywhere near a Super Bowl, but people are already calling him an all time great?

You're right. Mass hype-nosis at its best. Thanks for participating.

his accomplishments are gawdy. I dont know what ur obsession w/ rating a single person for the success of his/her team w/ zero other considerations. but it seems, well, myopic.

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 11:27 PM
his accomplishments are gawdy. I dont know what ur obsession w/ rating a single person for the success of his/her team w/ zero other considerations. but it seems, well, myopic.

Why? Because I'm not calling him far and away the best quarterback in the NFL, like you have no problem doing?

Develop a little perspective. Winning important games actually does matter. I had similar arguments with his father's apologists 20 years ago.

yavoon
07-14-2004, 11:30 PM
Why? Because I'm not calling him far and away the best quarterback in the NFL, like you have no problem doing?

Develop a little perspective. Winning important games actually does matter. I had similar arguments with his father's apologists 20 years ago.

wouldn't u pick a better example than mcnabb then?!?! I mean saying manning isnt as good as brady holds water. mcnabb tho? man I'm feeling tenuous on that land.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 11:31 PM
I can't believe I'm jumping back in here on page 9 of the thread that won't die, but here goes. I and I don't think anyone else in this thread said all-time great, I'm just discussing current NFL QB's. My all time list would be a lot different and we could probably get even more offseason mileage out of that and Manning would not be on it. McNabb is a pretty damn fine QB too. You would concede that he looked every bit as average as Manning when his team was also bounced from the playoffs as well last year, wouldn't you? 0 TD's 3 Picks and a sub 20 QB rating for Donovan if I remember correctly. Both are excellent, and both should only improve for the next several years. Philly pretty much has to run deep this year or I think Andy"The Junior Walrus" Reid is done there. They brought in TO and should just about be out of excuses. Should be a great year for football. I think everyone's wound a little tight since the start of the season is so tantalizingly close, yet so far away.

Ron

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 11:40 PM
Well, if you research this thread, I haven't come out and said McNabb is a better quarterback than Manning. I do think they're both top five quarterbacks, along with Brady.

I think McNabb's mobility, game management and leadership skills are a big reason the Eagles have been so successful ever since he took over. They had an even better defense with Randall Cunningham in his prime under center and didn't enjoy as much success.

I honestly see a lot of the young John Elway in McNabb and that's one of the reasons I enjoy watching him. Like Naptown and some others who admire Manning's public image, I'm also impressed by the way Donovan has carried himself with class and composure from the first second he was booed into the League by Eagle fans on Draft Day.

I'm looking forward to seeing McNabb completely healthy after the broken ankle two years ago, with a true big play receiver at the height of his powers like Terrell Owens on his side.

Goobzilla
07-14-2004, 11:41 PM
How many starting NFL QB's have rings? There's Brady, B-rad Johnson, Favre and probably Warner for at least the 1st month or 2 of the season. Am I missing anyone else? Dilfer will be backing up in SEA again, but that's it that I can remember.

It's just not that easy to do. As a Bronco Fan I just shudder when I hear the "can't win the big game" argument used on QB's. We had to put up with that crap for 14 seasons and it's just not fair to the team or the player. It's funny how many of us will dust that nugget off and use it after John got his, but protested the loudest when used against us in the past. Human nature I guess.

Ron

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 11:49 PM
I can't believe I'm jumping back in here on page 9 of the thread that won't die, but here goes. I and I don't think anyone else in this thread said all-time great, I'm just discussing current NFL QB's. My all time list would be a lot different and we could probably get even more offseason mileage out of that and Manning would not be on it. McNabb is a pretty damn fine QB too. You would concede that he looked every bit as average as Manning when his team was also bounced from the playoffs as well last year, wouldn't you? 0 TD's 3 Picks and a sub 20 QB rating for Donovan if I remember correctly. Both are excellent, and both should only improve for the next several years. Philly pretty much has to run deep this year or I think Andy"The Junior Walrus" Reid is done there. They brought in TO and should just about be out of excuses. Should be a great year for football. I think everyone's wound a little tight since the start of the season is so tantalizingly close, yet so far away.

Ron

I'll tell you what I thought really sucked. McNabb completely racks up his ankle against Arizona in 2002. He refuses X-rays and throws five touchdown passes on a broken ankle. He rushes back for the playoffs, leads his team to a first round victory and then gets abused by the eventual Champion Buccaneers.

Last year, still slowed by the injury, he and the entire Eagle team look like crap the first two weeks to start the season and suddenly its total bedlam. Limbaugh and everybody else start freaking out. I think its fair to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, especially when mobility is such a big part of his game. Now that he's healthy and he's got a true number one receiver, like you said, no excuse for him not to have a big season. With all the losses on the Eagles defense the last couple years, they're going to get into more shootouts this year anyway. More chances for McNabb to air it out and lord knows Owens will be calling for the football from day one.

-Slap-
07-14-2004, 11:52 PM
How many starting NFL QB's have rings? There's Brady, B-rad Johnson, Favre and probably Warner for at least the 1st month or 2 of the season. Am I missing anyone else? Dilfer will be backing up in SEA again, but that's it that I can remember.

It's just not that easy to do. As a Bronco Fan I just shudder when I hear the "can't win the big game" argument used on QB's. We had to put up with that crap for 14 seasons and it's just not fair to the team or the player. It's funny how many of us will dust that nugget off and use it after John got his, but protested the loudest when used against us in the past. Human nature I guess.

Ron

I think you're confused. There's a difference between not winning the Big Game and not winning playoff games. If you disagree with me, let me introduce you to my little friend.

Tredici
07-14-2004, 11:57 PM
Your little friend has a super bowl ring doesn't he?

Hahahhahahahahahaha.

-Slap-
07-15-2004, 12:08 AM
Your little friend has a super bowl ring doesn't he?

Hahahhahahahahahaha.

Marcus Nash did more to earn his.

Sir Mawn
07-15-2004, 01:03 AM
<a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12531" target="_blank">Peyton Manning</a> practices and practices. He wants to execute a game plan to perfection. He often succeeds. However, that perfectionist attitude doesn't help when the game plan starts going awry. Then he is prone to frustration and making poor decisions. He has shown the ability to get back on track and make the comeback, but not consistently enough to trust he has the mental toughness to get back on his game. Once he does that, he will be as complete of QB as you could ask for. Little more mobility would be nice, but doesn't seem to have made much difference at this point.


Exactly.

Northman
07-15-2004, 02:40 AM
it makes sense a broncos board would think mobility is the key to overperforming or "carrying" a team. u know actually MAKING THE THROWS U SHOULD, is far more important to winning than avoiding a few sacks or pulling a play out of ur ass.

so what? are you saying that John couldnt make the throws? :pity:

Northman
07-15-2004, 02:42 AM
Goddamn, you sound like you have a serious man crush on him, Ozo.

Were you jealous of that chick when he showed her his ass?


rep. ROFL!

Northman
07-15-2004, 02:47 AM
also the eagles dont lack talent offensively, they lack wr's. .


well gee genius, do you think thats important when a Qb needs someone to catch the ****ing thing?

Rock Chalk
07-15-2004, 05:55 AM
well gee genius, do you think thats important when a Qb needs someone to catch the ****ing thing?

No.

Just look at KC.

fontaine
07-15-2004, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by NaptownChief

Would agree with you on all accounts. He has been saddled with very poor defenses most of his career so far. If Dungy can muster up a top 15 defense for the next couple years I would fully expect him to bring Indy a ring, maybe two.

If McNair were saddled with the Colts D and Manning had the Titans the past several years Manning would probably have a ring or two and McNair's teams would struggle to sniff the playoffs. Just my worthless opinion however


You're right, your opinion is absolutely worthless here.

You do realize that statistically (yards per game/points allowed) Indy defense was better than the Titans in 2002? The two defenses were neck and neck in those categories as well last year.

Some people talk about Indy's defense like it was some sort of albatross around Peyton's neck, but the last two years the Indy Defense was around 10th in the league.

McNair is older and has less years left, I'll give you that. But McNair is twice the QB Manning will ever be because he's a better overall QB than Manning.

If you think the sun shines outta Manning's butt, fine, I won't try and refute your opinion because you're entitled to it, but get your facts right when slamming a QB like McNair about his "much better" defense.

What's this "PURE PASSING" QB shiat anyway?

To me that's like saying Salaam is a good "pure run blocking" tackle! It's totally ignoring his pass protection which is crap.

Manning is able to throw with accuracy and make the right decisions (i.e. throw to Marvin, throw to Marvin, throw to Marvin, throw to Dallas Clark, or Pollard).

But so was freakin' greaseball. Until that is, the OLine/WR/RB weren't perfect and he starting choking badly. Kinda like what Manning has been doing for the most part in the playoffs when the level of competition is higher.

While Manning was getting smacked around in the playoffs McNair was gutting it out and keeping his team in games. Eventually McNair's teams lost in the SuperBowl or to AFC teams that went on to the SuperBowl.

But Manning is this media darling and everyone loves him so ofcourse every year the mantra is that his defense sucks and he has no weapons even though <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235256" target="_blank">Reggie Wayne</a> has been a solid number 2 WR, and he's always had two pass catching TEs in that offense along with a good or great RB.

fontaine
07-15-2004, 07:23 AM
I'd take Brady right near the top
He has the intangibles and now he has 2 rings. He's a leader and sometimes that is more valuable than being a great QB. He's a winner.

You can have Brady. I'd rather have that two time Super Bowl winning, offensive nut crunching defense!

Tom A Hawk
07-15-2004, 08:07 AM
I would say he is the best pure QB in the game today... you can't deny him statistically. The only thing lacking from him in the Super Bowl championships... but hell, we really can't knock him for that because it took Elway so long to get his championships and I still thought of him as the best QB during his time. As for the comparison to McNair, I don't think its even close. Manning blows away McNairs numbers and the Colts also swept the Titans last year in head to head matchups. That was the whole reason Indy won the South division and the Titans did not.

yup, what he said!

Tom A Hawk
07-15-2004, 08:10 AM
No.

Just look at KC.

exactly........just think how many more yards Trent G. would have if the WR's would trade those bricks in for some hands.

Spider
07-15-2004, 08:13 AM
LOL ......
I'll tell you what I thought really sucked. McNabb completely racks up his ankle against Arizona in 2002. He refuses X-rays and throws five touchdown passes on a broken ankle. He rushes back for the playoffs, leads his team to a first round victory and then gets abused by the eventual Champion Buccaneers.



Of course Yavoon and Nappy dont know of this cause there just isnt a stat on that .... I have said manning is the best pure passer in the NFL , but there is more to Qbing then just passing .........

yavoon
07-15-2004, 10:29 AM
so what? are you saying that John couldnt make the throws? :pity:

no

yavoon
07-15-2004, 10:31 AM
LOL ......

Of course Yavoon and Nappy dont know of this cause there just isnt a stat on that .... I have said manning is the best pure passer in the NFL , but there is more to Qbing then just passing .........

yah like not turning the ball over in a playoff game in the redzone on a game winning drive in the fourth.

oh wait mcnabb did that.

yavoon
07-15-2004, 10:34 AM
You're right, your opinion is absolutely worthless here.

But Manning is this media darling and everyone loves him so ofcourse every year the mantra is that his defense sucks and he has no weapons even though <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235256" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235256" target="_blank">Reggie Wayne</a></a> has been a solid number 2 WR, and he's always had two pass catching TEs in that offense along with a good or great RB.

I think u got carried away w/ ur fervor, no1 has ever said manning has no1 to throw it to. then again manning made brandon stokley look like a deep threat.

Spider
07-15-2004, 10:37 AM
yah like not turning the ball over in a playoff game in the redzone on a game winning drive in the fourth.

oh wait mcnabb did that.
Hold up Kiddo .......... I am in the Carr camp not the McNabb camp .....
But even you have to admit Owens wil lgo along ways in preventing that ....... But with that said , what does McNabb throwing the Pick on a game winning drive have to do with what I quoted ?

yavoon
07-15-2004, 10:47 AM
Hold up Kiddo .......... I am in the Carr camp not the McNabb camp .....
But even you have to admit Owens wil lgo along ways in preventing that ....... But with that said , what does McNabb throwing the Pick on a game winning drive have to do with what I quoted ?

well since u seem to think anecdotes are far superior to stats I gave u an anecdote.

and yes one would think terrell would help mcnabb out a lot.

crazyhorse
07-15-2004, 10:51 AM
Hold up Kiddo .......... I am in the Carr camp not the McNabb camp .....
But even you have to admit Owens wil lgo along ways in preventing that ....... But with that said , what does McNabb throwing the Pick on a game winning drive have to do with what I quoted ?

Carrrrrr!!?

Are you selling any of that?

Spider
07-15-2004, 10:52 AM
well since u seem to think anecdotes are far superior to stats I gave u an anecdote.
ancedotes are far more important then stats in football , The point Slap made was McNabb gamed it out with a bad wheel .......
Yeah throwing that Pick on the game winning drive sucked , I saw the Play , but not the coaches tape , so I dont remember who was or wasnt doubled on that play ....( meaning did McNabb make the right read or did he miss a wide open guy ) I do Remember McNabb rolling to the left on that throw , that tells me he was buying time for some one to break open .....

Spider
07-15-2004, 10:54 AM
Carrrrrr!!?

Are you selling any of that?
I would take Carr to QB the Broncos in a heart beat ......
But no way do the texans let Carr go .......

yavoon
07-15-2004, 10:57 AM
ancedotes are far more important then stats in football , The point Slap made was McNabb gamed it out with a bad wheel .......
Yeah throwing that Pick on the game winning drive sucked , I saw the Play , but not the coaches tape , so I dont remember who was or wasnt doubled on that play ....( meaning did McNabb make the right read or did he miss a wide open guy ) I do Remember McNabb rolling to the left on that throw , that tells me he was buying time for some one to break open .....

haha thats frigging comedy. anecdotes are nightmares. I mean I could prolly go get 3 or 4 griese anecdotes and we could be spending the next 5 pages yelling at each other over them.

so yah he threw 5 tds in a relatively meaningless game against who? the cardinals(I forget). and in all the nfc championship games, 2 at home, he has blown chunks.

Spider
07-15-2004, 11:02 AM
haha thats frigging comedy. anecdotes are nightmares. I mean I could prolly go get 3 or 4 griese anecdotes and we could be spending the next 5 pages yelling at each other over them.

so yah he threw 5 tds in a relatively meaningless game against who? the cardinals(I forget). and in all the nfc championship games, 2 at home, he has blown chunks.
Thats football ........
See when you make it to the pros , you are the best of the Best ......
you showed talent , you showed that you can game ...... Some fail to mentaly rise to the Pressure .........
I still say Griese had the tools , didnt have the Drive ..........

NaptownChief
07-15-2004, 11:45 AM
LOL ......

Of course Yavoon and Nappy dont know of this cause there just isnt a stat on that .... I have said manning is the best pure passer in the NFL , but there is more to Qbing then just passing .........

Yeah, Manning isn't tough like McNadd and McNair...He only has never missed a single snap in his career while playing through a broken jaw and many other aches and pains that only come from having the sack to stay on the field every single snap of every single game.

NaptownChief
07-15-2004, 11:51 AM
From the man who claimed <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1816" target="_blank">Derrick Mason</a> and <a href="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1231" target="_blank">Marvin Harrison</a> are essentially the same guy.

Ever consider approaching an argument honestly?


When McNadd makes T.O look more like James Thrash than T.O. this season you might have a little better understanding as to what I am saying. I won't hold my breath however as you are the same guy that struggled to eat the humble pie Manning served up against the Donks in the Dome.

ozomulsion
07-15-2004, 12:05 PM
Yeah, Manning isn't tough like McNadd and McNair...He only has never missed a single snap in his career while playing through a broken jaw and many other aches and pains that only come from having the sack to stay on the field every single snap of every single game.

Didn't you know that is only becase he has "such a GREAT O-line . Judging by some other posts it has nothing to do with toughness or being able to feel the heat from his blind side.

Spider
07-15-2004, 12:06 PM
Yeah, Manning isn't tough like McNadd and McNair...He only has never missed a single snap in his career while playing through a broken jaw and many other aches and pains that only come from having the sack to stay on the field every single snap of every single game.
I never said Manning wasnt tough , But I never bashed Manning for throwing pics or not winning in Playoffs ..........