When I was a little boy...

[Robb]

When I was a little boy about 11, I would look up at the night sky with all its multitude of worlds and heavenly bodies orbiting streaming through limited space. I would extend expanses farther out in my mind, and farther still, as though I wanted to see what was next, what lay beyond it all. Of course, all I saw was more and more of the same galactic landscape. Each time I dreamed, a wordless question would rise my mind as I mentally searched out the ends of the universe. Is that all there is? Somehow, despite the infinite expanse of the universe and its spectacular cosmic events, I felt as though it was just so, one-dimensional. All I could see in my mind's eye was more space, more worlds, stars, galaxies such, and beyond them more and more and even more of the same. I was searching, it seemed, for something more, for something beyond the final outer wall of space matter and time. What lay on the other side of the wall? Pretty soon would wake up and go back inside, play, eat, watch TV or fight with my older brother. Years later, I can really appreciate my returning childhood nightvision's two those special moments, some part of me was looking for God. For some strange reason, even though I lived in the fog like most young people, I was graced on occasion with magical, faith giving moments of wonderment. I was searching, at least during those flights of fancy, for meaning, for purpose, for the spiritual dimension of life. I would say those infrequent but soulful inner explorations of mine were probably my most awake moments as a child.

Indeed, for most of us childhood itself is something of a dream. We float along in the world of our parents, for better or for worse, and we grow a pretty much shaped by the most powerful force around us, home and school. Fast-forward a few years to where I found God. In a small-town church. Where there was a spirit filled comforting encouragement that filled my soul with new wine, and the new birth experience took me through a metamorphosis that empowered me to speak in a heavenly language so I never had to gaze up at the night sky looking for God again. It was that God that help me confront a never-ending stream of school hororrs, I look back and ask myself, why is the public school systems so wretched? But before we look at school, let's look first at children. Do you understand what a stem cell is? A stem cell is a cell, in the human being at least, that in the very early stages of development and is undifferentiated. In other words, is not yet other kinds of tissue, but it can go any direction depending on the environment that its in. The stem cell, if it's in the brain, develops into a nerve cell or into the substance between the nerves. Or if it's in the heart, it becomes a heart sell, or if it's in the eye, it becomes an eyeball cell. Whatever it is, it takes on the characteristic of the surrounding area. Do you understand that children are the stem cells for the culture? The environment that you put them in is what they grow up to be. And if you can control what they hear, if you could control what they are told, if you have access to their minds, you can make them into just about whatever you want them to be.

Hold that thought, as they say, while we take up a quick romp through the government's school system.

If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war. I'm talking about sinister "change agents" attempting to reprogram Johnny into a drone carefully groomed for service in a future utopian socialist state. Deliberate dumbing down of educational standards and practices. Atheistic, globalists intellectuals plotting to lobotomize America's youth by sabotaging sound methods of reading instruction. "Death education" during which the class would take a field trip to a mortuary and children would be required to discuss how they might commit suicide. "Values clarification" forcing students to decide who should live and who should die in special mental exercises designed to wrest their loyalty away from their parents "old-fashioned" values and to reshape them along Modernist lines, for better socialization, of course.

And then there's sex. We've heard for years about pornographic, coed sex education classes in public schools, about school counselors eager to dispense birth control devices to vulnerable teens, and even to refer them out for abortions, during school hours, no need for Mom or Dad to know. Today, homosexual proselytizing has become so rampant and audacious in government schools that it turns my stomach. Suing schools for allowing the 10 Commandments to be posted in the hall, for praying a graduation time, even for posting a sign simply saying "God Bless America" in honor of those killed on September 11, 2001. No matter how bizarre the practice, it somehow seems to qualify as the basis of public school curriculum, were told, from New Age rituals to the Islamic Jihad. That's right, even Islamists terror attacks, some California public schools teach Islam as their middle school curriculum, requiring students to dress up as Muslims, memorizing portions of the Koran and participate in "jihad games."

Then there are other disturbing tales. Tales of children suspended from kindergarten for plaing cops and robbers because they pointed a finger at another child on the playground and shouted " bang bang." Yes, this brave new world were common sense and discretion have been suspended along with innocent students.

When your eight-year-old son is suspended from school for day because his offense is possession of an illegal and dangerous explosive device, yes, explosive device. The device was a firecracker that was given to him after school by a peer. He had possession of this potential hazard for all of two minutes before giving it to his best friend's mother who turned it into the school office. The following day, he was taken out of class at 11 A. M. He was interviewed by an administrator and school police. He remained in the office until 3 p.m. when his mother picked him up, he was visibly shaken. He did not eat much dinner that night and uncharacteristically wanted to go to bed early. He also complained of a stomachache. He had been under stress all day. It's called being disciplined under the Los Angeles unified school District zero tolerance policy.

Another instance in which a girl was suspended because she gave a cough drop to a friend, possession of and exchanging drugs. Or how about the seven-year-old boy who gave a girl and unexpected kiss on the cheek, sexual harassment. In a grotesque overreaction to the rash of school shootings and prevalence of illegal drugs on campus, administrators solutions have turned many schools into "Alice in Wonderland" environments where nothing makes sense and the Queen of heart shouts " Off with their heads!" For the slightest perceived offense.

This aura of unbelievability has prevented all these dire reports from being taken seriously by a wide audience, and relegated those championing such claims to the fringes of public debate or conspiracy theorist and chicken Little's and are safely confined. Nevertheless, not only are these claims of educational subversion true, but the reality is far worse than the words could possibly say. After all, isn't reality always more than what words can describe? Heaven and Hell must be far better and far worse than what mere words can conjure up in the mind. In fact, it is that very horror of what happend to America's schools that prevents many people from being able to face that reality squarely. Of all the attempts to explain what has gone wrong with America's schools, one of the most genuine, perceptive is that of John Taylor Gatto, former New York City in New York State teacher of the year. After stating his life in educational trenches, this thirty-year veteran public school teacher wrote "the underground history of American education." In it, he brilliantly explains how educational leaders could utterly corrupt America's school system, and thereby many of the nation's children, with the apparent best of intentions, thinking they were doing the great work of advancing American civilization. Gatto transports us back to the smoke-filled rooms of the late 19th century,

Somehow out of the industrial confusion which followed the Civil War, powerful men and dreamers became certain what kind of social order America needed. This realization didn't arise as a product of public debate as it should have been democracy, but as distillation of private discussion. Their ideas contradict original American charter but that didn't disturb them. They had a stupendous goal in mind, the rationalization of everything. The end of unpredictable history and its transformation into something orderly.

... The first goal, to be reached in stages, was an orderly, scientifically managed society, one in which the best people would make the decisions, unhampered by democratic tradition. After that, human breading, the evolutionary destiny of the species, would be in reach. Universal institutionalization formal forced schooling was the perception...

If your head is already spinning and you are tempted to throw this to the conspiracy bin, don't, this is real.

Gatto goes on to name names,

In the first decade of the 20th century, a small group of soon-to-be famous academics, symbolically led by John Dewey and Edward Thorndike of Columbia teachers College, Elwood P. Cumbberley of Stanford, G. Stanley hall, and an ambitious handful of others, in your drives and finance by major corporate and financial allies like Morgan, Astor, Whitney, Carnegie, and Rockefeller, decided to bend government schooling to the service of business and that political state, as it had been done a century before in Prussia.

And what were the motives of this group? After the Civil War, Utopian speculated analysis regarding isolation of children in custodial compounds where they could be subjected to deliberate molding routines began to be discussed seriously by the Northeastern policy elites of business, government, and university life. These discussions were inspired by a growing realization that the productive potential of machinery driven by Cole was limitless. Railroad development made possible by Cole, startling new inventions like the Telegraph, seems suddenly to make village life and local dreams irrelevant. A new governing mind was emerging in harmony with new reality. The principal motivation for this revolution in family and community life seems on the surface to be agreed, but appearance concealed philosophical visions approaching religious exaltation in intensity, that effective early indoctrination of all children would lead to an elderly scientific society, one controlled by the best people now free from the obsolete straitjacket of democratic traditions and historic American libertarian attitudes. For schooling was the medicine to bring the whole continental population into conformity with these plants so it might be regarded as a human resource. Managed as a workforce. No more Ben Franklin, or Thomas Edison could be allowed, they set bad examples.

Wait a minute! Where do God, the Bible, the 10 Commandments and the traditional American spirit of Independence fit into this scheme? They don't. A core change in American values, one that didn't involve God or absolute values, was being birthed in secret. That's right, in secret. For while most of us are reasonably familiar with America's history as it encompasses politics and elections, medical and scientific advances, fashions and cultural trends, wars and revolutions, we are only dimly aware of the most important modern revolution of all. That is, the tumultuous overthrow, by the self-appointed elite intellectual " leader class" of Western Judeo-Christian values and beliefs in favor of an atheistic, "scientific" worldview. I'm not going to detail how the "Progressives" as they call themselves, managed to insinuate their new philosophy into many of the major institutions of Western world, it's been exhaustively documented by others. Suffice to say that the progresives, socialistl, profoundly influenced by "experimental psychology" which regarded humans as merely animals, as well as Darwin's theory of evolution, which also regarded humans as merely animals, based their new approach to governance on science, evolution and psychology. And their number one goal was to transform America through its education system, which they did by taking control of the teachers colleges, textbook publishers and other institutions. Do you get it? These are not people who deliberate try to destroy youth. They are, rather, people who fervently believe, with a religious zeal, in a radically different worldview than the one in which you believe, in which most Americans believe, indeed, radically different from the one on which this nation was founded in which has underpinned every bit of its moral and economic success. It is the classic spiritual war between two great, cosmic worldviews competing for the minds and souls of each man, woman and child. One view is based on humility and faith in a Divine Creator, and a moral imperative to love and obey His laws of life at all costs. The other worldview is based on a prideful rejection of God in favor of man-as-god, who by his enlightened philosophies (Communism, socialism, humanism) and his scientific advances intends to create heaven on earth.

That may all be true, you might say, but I still don't see any of the stuff going on in my childs school. He goes to class, he has good teachers, he gets good grades and stays out of trouble. And he loves band. So, what's the problem?

As a matter of fact, I didn't have any classes in death education neither, nobody taught me how to be in Islamic Jihad warrior and I never was forced to read lesbian poetry. My education was pretty void of these unsavory influences. Although, I did have new math stuff down my throat. I love math, so it didn't bother me. No, while each and every one of these modern-day educational outrages has propelled government schools toward new lows, they are not the core problem with public school.

[Robb]

Gatto points with stunning eloquence to the core problem. To set the stage, listening to how and why he departed from public-school teaching in 1991, "after planning and bringing about the most successful permit school fund raiser in New York City history, after placing a single eighth-grade class into 30,000 hours of volunteer community service, after organizing and financing a student-run food cooperative, after securing over 1000 apprenticeships, directing the collection of tens of thousands of books for the construction of private student libraries, after producing for talking job dictionaries for the blind, writing to original student musicals, and launching and our motto of other initiatives to reintegrate students with a larger human reality, I quit." At the time, Gatto was New York State teacher of the year. "An accumulation of disgust amd frustration which grew too heavy to be borne finally did me in." When all is said and done, Gatto doesn't blame the grotesque psychological experiments and failed pedagogic approaches and school crime spree's that steal headlines. Rather, he points to the subtle, soul-killing power of forced government schooling, the devastating effect on each child's not-so-hidden genius of sitting at a desk in a classroom all day for one's entire youth.

The strongest meshes of the school net are invisible. Constant bidding for strangers attention creates the chemistry producing the common care to respects of modern schoolchildren, whining, dishonesty, malice, treachery, cruelty. Unceasing competition for official favor in the dramatic fishbowl of classroom delivers cowardly children, little people sunk in chronic boredom, little people with no apparent purpose for being alive. The net effect of holding children in confinement for 12 years without honor paid to the spirit is a compelling demonstration that the state considers the Western spiritual tradition dangerous. And of course it is. School is about creating loyalty to certain goals and habits, a vision of life, support for class structure, and intricate system of human relationships cleverly designed to manufacture the continuously low level of discontent upon which mass production and finance rely.

The bottom line, says Gatto:

Spiritually contended people are dangerous for a variety of reasons. They don't make reliable servants because they won't jump at every command. They tests what is requested against a code of moral principle. Those who are spiritually secure can't be easily driven to sacrifice family relations. Corporate and financial capitalism are hardly possible on any massive scale once a population finds its spiritual center.

If the government's education system, like most of what the government does these days, is dangerous to our freedom and happiness, how then are we to educate our children?

[orange 4 life]

war and politics forum material?

or maybe the all new "robb's right wing rants" forum?

robb, are you a bronco fan?
im NOT trying to be an ass, but i really cant remember your last post that centered on anything besides an ULTRA-conservative rant.

jake

[Taco John]

Robb actually has some poingant Broncos takes during the season sometimes... Like anyone, some are better than others. He doesn't like it when he perceives anyone is bashing Shanahan, to be sure.

[orange 4 life]

Took me 6 seconds to scroll past this. Who can beat my record?

i often type long posts also, so out of respect i tried to get through it, but i couldnt.
its just more of the same.

Jesus saves.
pray in schools.
liberals are terrible.
God lives.
our future is bleak
bush is Gods chosen leader.
Jesus lives.
i hate liberals.
vote for bush or God will strike you down.
republicans are Gods children.

does that about sum it up?

jake

[orange 4 life]

Robb actually has some poingant Broncos takes during the season sometimes... Like anyone, some are better than others. He doesn't like it when he perceives anyone is bashing Shanahan, to be sure.

its been a LONG offseason tj.
now that you mention shanny, i remember robb's posts from last year.
he jumped on me for criticizing a couple of shanny's decisions.

boy, ill be glad when the preseason starts.
at times the offseason topics have been EXTREMELY interesting, but im more than ready to get back to football.

jake

[Tredici]

Get out your wallet and pay to put the kids in a school of your choice.

Better yet. Keep them at home. Fill their heads full of whatever you perceive the truth to be.

Even better. Don't procreate.

Problem Solved.

[orangeatheist]

Even better. Don't procreate.

Problem Solved.

Oh, if only prayers were answered.... :pray:

[orangeatheist]

When I was a little boy (when I was just a boy)
And the Devil would call my name (when I was just a boy)
I'd say "now who do, who do you think you're fooling"
(When I was just a boy)
I'm a consecrated boy (when I was just a boy)
I'm a singer in a Sunday choir
Oh, my mama loves, she loves me
She get down on her knees and hug me
Like she loves me like a rock
She rocks me like the rock of ages, and loves me
She love me, love me, love me, love me

:P

[azbronco]

When I was a little boy (when I was just a boy)
And the Devil would call my name (when I was just a boy)
I'd say "now who do, who do you think you're fooling"
(When I was just a boy)
I'm a consecrated boy (when I was just a boy)
I'm a singer in a Sunday choir
Oh, my mama loves, she loves me
She get down on her knees and hug me
Like she loves me like a rock
She rocks me like the rock of ages, and loves me
She love me, love me, love me, love me

:P

Rep for the tune OA. But looking at your avatar. Do you really think that happened by sheer chance? Or do you think there may have been an Architect?
Don't get me wrong, I respect your views, and fight to the end for you to be able to express them, but the juxtapostion of your handle and that "Goddess" is just to much for me to leave unmentioned.

[Rohirrim]

Man, that's a lot of typing!

[orangeatheist]

Rep for the tune OA. But looking at your avatar. Do you really think that happened by sheer chance? Or do you think there may have been an Architect?
Don't get me wrong, I respect your views, and fight to the end for you to be able to express them, but the juxtapostion of your handle and that "Goddess" is just to much for me to leave unmentioned.

I'll admit it, when I see heavenly orbs like that, AZ, my faith in faithlessness begins to waiver! :undecided :hitself: :P

[patteeu]

Robb actually has some poingant Broncos takes during the season sometimes... Like anyone, some are better than others. He doesn't like it when he perceives anyone is bashing Shanahan, to be sure.

I find Robb's posts pretty interesting. Some, like this one are a little on the long side, but most provide a perspective that I don't see very often. But Shanahan suxors and can't get anything done now that Elway (who I consider the best QB ever) is retired. It's about time Robb comes to terms with that. :)

[Falconer]

Rep for the tune OA. But looking at your avatar. Do you really think that happened by sheer chance? Or do you think there may have been an Architect?
Don't get me wrong, I respect your views, and fight to the end for you to be able to express them, but the juxtapostion of your handle and that "Goddess" is just to much for me to leave unmentioned.

This post really has nothing to do with the topic. I just wanted to say that your avatar was one of my favorite moments of the Superbowl, along with Elway's spin dive. :super:

Falconer

[Robb]

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God of all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart. And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thine sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up." Deuteronomy 6:5-7

If you ever have the opportunity to interview a whole slew of teachers seeking employment in a private Christian school please interview the more promising ones, and conduct your final grillings with those few. Take it seriously, because whomever you hire, 24 precious children are going to be compelled to look up into that person face every single day for six hours. So the teacher you have chose better be a work of art. Many of the questions asked unconventional, should be to bypass the tendency of some applicants to preform for the interview, to say what they know the employer wants to hear. A offbeat question you should ask every interviewee, is this. Look back on your own years of schooling, out of all the teachers you had, how many of them really made a lasting positive impression on you, truly influenced you for the better, inspired you to accomplish something good, open you up to greater understanding and virtue? In other words, how many of them had real love? Before I tell you some surprising answers, stop and ask yourself the same question. How many of your teachers, as you were growing up, had real love? Well, virtually every one of the teacher candidates said there had been only two or three teachers, total, that had really been worthwhile to them all the years they were students. Two or three! What of the dozens of other mediocre teachers they had during their magical growth period, during their "stem cell" years?

You will find that many of the teacher candidates have ended up going into this very same field taught by their inspiring teachers. Some of them had never before realized the connection between their teachers love in their own subsequent affinity for the subject. There was a mysterious transference that somehow had taken place during their mentorship with a truly inspired teacher. Yes we want to diligently developed private schools where all of the teachers have this quality, were all would be remembered years later with appreciation because they had truly inspired their students, it's a daunting task, fraught with difficulties and setbacks. But I believe, with God's help, we can do it, we can change it, we can make the future brighter for our children. And of course there are many private religious schools across the nation, offering a better alternative than government education for all those souls who, like John Taylor Gatto, just can't stomach public education any longer. There is, however, what I frankly believed to be a far superior educational solution, since it has a unique potential not only of properly educating children, but of transforming entire family is well. I'm talking about homeschooling, which is the Avenue my wife and I have chosen for our own child. The simple truth is, we love our kid more than any teacher could possibly be expected to love them. That's not to our credit, it's just a fact of life, my child, whom God has given to us to "teach diligently" as it says in Deuteronomy. With a little diligence on our part, our children's teachers can always be memorable to them.

While not all homeschoolers are religious, Christians are unquestionably the driving force behind the rapidly growing homeschooling movement in America today. Virtually all of the curriculum and moral support groups, but networking organizations, the legal battles, the publications and curriculum fairs are the passionate work of Christians and fiercely believe a de facto atheistic government school system is no place to "train up" the Next Generation of "Warriors for Christ." In fact, the motivation and intensity of many committee Christian homeschoolers is strikingly reminiscent of the Pilgrims. Everyone knows the Pilgrims left England for Holland because of religious persecution. But why did they leave Holland and make the incredibly dangerous trip across the Atlantic to America? William Bradford, one of the Pilgrims who established the Plymouth colony and later served as its governor for more than 30 years, explain what motivated them to leave Holland, despite the Freedom from religious persecution they had found their. "Many of the children, wrote in Bradford of English transplants, "influenced by great licentiousness of the young people of the country, and the many temptations of the cities, were led by evil example into dangerous corners, getting the rains off their neck and leaving their parents."

[Robb]

The Pilgrims saw their children were in danger of being corrupted, and for this reason they last for uncharted territory, America, where they would have the chance to create a new civilization in which their prosperity can flourish, uncorrupted by a decadent and perverse culture. In other words, the Pilgrims came to America, at great cost and sacrifice, for the same reason many Christians, Jews and other people of conscious today homeschool their children, to protect them from corruption and to give them a powerful grounding in godly principles of life. And yet, a troubling question arises. Even though homeschooling is growing at a dramatic pace, 15% or more per year according to the national home education research Institute the vast majority of American Christians still enroll their children in public schools. How do they justify putting that which is most precious to them, the lives and souls of their own children, during their all-important "stem cell" years, into the hands of what is unquestionably an atheistic school system viserially at odds with everything Christianity teaches? For many, the immediate reason is economic. Like all Americans, Christians are saddled with excessive taxes and regulation. In order to keep the wolves away from the door and maintain a comfortable lifestyle, many sitcom to the two wage earner solution, which makes homeschooling difficult. Some Christians, aware that modern public school has become a God-free zone, confront themselves with the notion that their Christian children are bearing witness to their unsaved peers. This, increasingly, is being seen for what it is, a convenient excuse. Children are not meant to live and learn while in camp behind enemy lines. Others feel academically and inadequate to the task of teaching, or don't think they could command their children's attention in respect, or don't want to be around their kids that much, or to attach their careers, or hundred other reasons that seem to rule out the homeschool option. Regardless of the outward reasons, most Christians don't see an insurmountable problem with sending their children to public school. But what does that say about our standards? Most Christians, evangelicals today, or very happy and satisfied if their children by the age of 18 had not lost their virginity, if their children are not on drugs, if their children are not caught up in the world. Brothers and sisters, it is that the right standard for us? How low we have sunk. God would have us raise up Warriors for Jesus Christ. But this means giving them a Warriors education. Warriors are not trained in the school system of the world. Warriors are trained separately. Warriors are trained uniquely. Warriors are trained by God's standards, they are taught to stand alone. This must be what our vision is. How sad in the best we can see is to simply keep our kids off the perverting influences of Popper culture. However, the main reason, face it, the ultimate reason, most modern Christians turned their children over to a government school system that brainwashes them and spits on their religion is the compartmentalization Christians have evolved between their religion and real life. Many Christians feel that as long as their kids have been persuaded to believe Jesus died for their sins that they are safe for eternity, and not much else really matters. It's an almost irresistible, unconscious calculation we make one our concept of salvation is divorced from any real need for obedience to God's laws. Our basic selfishness and sinfulness tempt us to believe unconsciously that, since our kids are saved, what does it matter where they go to school or what they are exposed to or even how sinful they become? What a shame. This is the basic deceitful condition we need salvation from, and yet we foil God's plan for us, and for our children, while convincing ourselves were embracing it. It's as though we've won the 26 million lottery, so what is really matter if we miss behave on our day job now? Who even need to job? Were set for life! That's the secret, deceitful calculation. But on the conscious level, we think. Well, I went through public school, and I turned out okay. So, my children or get through to find too. I'm not worried. Hey, I also went to public school, and my mind and soul are intact today. But isn't that a sad excuse for giving our children and inferior experience when we know we could do better? And of course, as we have seen, government school's today are far more corrupting and traumatic than they were a generation ago.

[Arkie]

Wait a minute! Where do God, the Bible, the 10 Commandments and the traditional American spirit of Independence fit into this scheme? They don't. A core change in American values, one that didn't involve God or absolute values, was being birthed in secret.

I thought one of the main ingredients of Indepedence is the freedom of religion.

The net effect of holding children in confinement for 12 years without honor paid to the spirit is a compelling demonstration that the state considers the Western spiritual tradition dangerous.

The holy spirit only? If we did that, then we would have to honor every religion publicly in school. Let's see.......which one gets to go first? Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Agnostic, or Rastafarianism? Let's all pray in every religion until the bell rings! The Christian religion alone is diverse and abounding in several variations. Most parents don't want their kids force fed something different than what they get at home.

I think religion is good. I have read that religous people live longer, healthier, happier lives. These are just general stats. Each individual is different. Basically if you are at peace with your life and not afraid to die, I think you could fall into this catagory.

[baja]

When I was a little boy..............



http://www.sesow.com/paintings/mar2k3/faith.jpg

[Mile High Shack]

When I was a little boy..............



http://www.sesow.com/paintings/mar2k3/faith.jpg

man you is UGLY

that's right your UGLY
U-G-L-Y

UGLY!!!

[orange 4 life]

thank God we have separation of church and state, and thank God that david koresh.....i mean robb isnt running the country.

"warriors for Christ"

that may be the biggest oxymoron ive ever heard.

jake

[ZachKC]

Another thread? Well this calls for one thing...

DANCE MONKEY DANCE!



http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=6984&stc=1

[baja]

Damn I know you didn't just call me ugly

[orange 4 life]

im just kidding robb, but good Lord!!

you dont even respond to people anymore.
its just one preaching post after another.
just so you know, that makes people NOT want to be christian.

i am a person of DEVOUT faith, but you will not ever see me preach to a group of football fans that didnt ask to be preached to.
it just turns people off.
do you really not understand that?
is there a reason why you dont even respond to people?
another 5000 word diatribe is not a response.
what are you trying to accomplish here?

it just doesnt make any sense at all, and im wondering if youre aware of that.

jake

[Mile High Shack]

Damn I know you didn't just call me ugly


that's right!!

and your mamma has a mouth in the back of her neck and the _____ chews like this.......

yo mamma has a wooden kickstand..........

Nyah!

[Rock Chalk]

That first paragraph was well written.

Snagged my attention for a moment.

Then he lost me.

Oh well.

[broncolife]

I attempted to read it about three times, but I still havent finished it. I guess I will give it one more try.I hope I can make it to his second post.

[Robb]

im just kidding robb, but good Lord!!

you dont even respond to people anymore.
its just one preaching post after another.
just so you know, that makes people NOT want to be christian.

i am a person of DEVOUT faith, but you will not ever see me preach to a group of football fans that didnt ask to be preached to.
it just turns people off.
do you really not understand that?
is there a reason why you dont even respond to people?
another 5000 word diatribe is not a response.
what are you trying to accomplish here?

it just doesnt make any sense at all, and im wondering if youre aware of that.

jake


Jake...

Thanks for the scope of new historical thinking, it really embraces all the basic problems of our time. For all the contradictions of present-day world, for all the diversity that you've brought to the passengers of this ship. I am conscious of the fact, we genuinely need your knowledge for the world's future.

[kappys]

A lot of hating on Robb going on here. This was one of his better rants though. The first two are good, the last ones where it turns into evangelicism I skimmed.

There are good points in this:

1) Obviously - zero tolerance has just gone too far. Everything is not black or white - which is what our kids are being taught. Creativity is out the window. I remember doing videos in high school for various projects, all of which involved violence, and some of which involved drugs and alcohol(all simulated of course). I got A's on every one of them. If I tried that today I would be thrown into lockdown.

2) Some knowledge of Christiantiy is necessary - I AM NOT CHRISTIAN - but I understand that in order to read about, and undertand Western History and the Western literary tradition knowledge about the Bible is a must. There are just far too many literary and historical events that center around these to be ignored. For sure we should teach kids more, a lot more, about other religions like Islam, Judiasm, Hinduism, Buddhism, but knowing Christianity is important to read English texts.

3) Kids will lose their ability to think creatively - which will be a big detriment to this country. I have seen the results of my cousins who go to school in India - they have amazing Math and science abilities at a young age - but their creative instincts and abilities are simply not stressed in schools and as a result are not developed. Note - going to Christian only schooling would have much the same effect.

[orange 4 life]

Jake...

Thanks for the scope of new historical thinking, it really embraces all the basic problems of our time. For all the contradictions of present-day world, for all the diversity that you've brought to the passengers of this ship. I am conscious of the fact, we genuinely need your knowledge for the world's future.

sorry pal, you and your sarcasm "embrace all the basic problems of our time".

you dont act like a christian, you act like a beligerant, self righteous, narrow minded, egotistical jerk.

...but i forgive you. ;D

jake

[orange 4 life]

A lot of hating on Robb going on here. This was one of his better rants though. The first two are good, the last ones where it turns into evangelicism I skimmed.

There are good points in this:

1) Obviously - zero tolerance has just gone too far. Everything is not black or white - which is what our kids are being taught. Creativity is out the window. I remember doing videos in high school for various projects, all of which involved violence, and some of which involved drugs and alcohol(all simulated of course). I got A's on every one of them. If I tried that today I would be thrown into lockdown.

2) Some knowledge of Christiantiy is necessary - I AM NOT CHRISTIAN - but I understand that in order to read about, and undertand Western History and the Western literary tradition knowledge about the Bible is a must. There are just far too many literary and historical events that center around these to be ignored. For sure we should teach kids more, a lot more, about other religions like Islam, Judiasm, Hinduism, Buddhism, but knowing Christianity is important to read English texts.

3) Kids will lose their ability to think creatively - which will be a big detriment to this country. I have seen the results of my cousins who go to school in India - they have amazing Math and science abilities at a young age - but their creative instincts and abilities are simply not stressed in schools and as a result are not developed. Note - going to Christian only schooling would have much the same effect.

it doesnt seem like anyone's really "hating" on robb.

i think the CONSENSUS opinion though, is that he could have summarized his gone with the wind size posts into your three paragraphs.

good post, good read.

i have no problem with longer posts (because im a big offender), but come on. when its time after time of robb's untra conservative PREACHING it ceases to be a discussion and ends up what we have here.

jake

[orangeatheist]

That first paragraph was well written.

Snagged my attention for a moment.

Then he lost me.

Oh well.

*snif*

He had me at "When I was a little boy..."

*snif*

thwack

[broncolife]

it doesnt seem like anyone's really "hating" on robb.

i think the CONSENSUS opinion though, is that he could have summarized his gone with the wind size posts into your three paragraphs.

good post, good read.

i have no problem with longer posts (because im a big offender), but come on. when its time after time of robb's untra conservative PREACHING it ceases to be a discussion and ends up what we have here.

jake

For some reason your avatar always has me thinking your Taco John.

[listopencil]

"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.

This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)



George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)


John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.


Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

[listopencil]

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1790.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Speaking of the independence of the first 13 States, H.G. Wells in his Outline of History, says:

"It was a Western European civilization that had broken free from the last traces of Empire and Christendom; and it had not a vestige of monarchy left, and no State Religion... The absence of any binding religious tie is especially noteworthy. It had a number of forms of Christianity, its spirit was indubitably Christian; but, as a State document of 1796 expicity declared: 'The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.'"

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

[listopencil]

National Platform of the Libertarian Party
Adopted in Convention, July 1998, Washington D.C.

Preamble
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives, and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

[listopencil]

Statement of Principles
We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.

We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose.

Governments throughout history have regularly operated on the opposite principle, that the State has the right to dispose of the lives of individuals and the fruits of their labor. Even within the United States, all political parties other than our own grant to government the right to regulate the lives of individuals and seize the fruits of their labor without their consent.

We, on the contrary, deny the right of any government to do these things, and hold that where governments exist, they must not violate the rights of any individual: namely, (1) the right to life -- accordingly we support the prohibition of the initiation of physical force against others; (2) the right to liberty of speech and action -- accordingly we oppose all attempts by government to abridge the freedom of speech and press, as well as government censorship in any form; and (3) the right to property -- accordingly we oppose all government interference with private property, such as confiscation, nationalization, and eminent domain, and support the prohibition of robbery, trespass, fraud, and misrepresentation.

Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

[listopencil]

I. Individual Rights and Civil Order
No conflict exists between civil order and individual rights. Both concepts are based on the same fundamental principle: that no individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government.

[listopencil]

Freedom and Responsibility

We believe that individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. We must accept the right of others to choose for themselves if we are to have the same right. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.

We believe people must accept personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Libertarian policies will promote a society where people are free to make and learn from their own decisions. Personal responsibility is discouraged by government denying individuals the opportunity to exercise it. In fact, the denial of freedom fosters irresponsibility.

[listopencil]

Crime

The continuing high level of violent crime -- and the government's demonstrated inability to deal with it -- threatens the lives, happiness, and belongings of Americans. At the same time, governmental violations of rights undermine the people's sense of justice with regard to crime. The appropriate way to suppress crime is through consistent and impartial enforcement of laws that protect individual rights. Laws pertaining to "victimless crimes" should be repealed since such laws themselves violate individual rights and also breed genuine crime. We applaud the trend toward private protection services and voluntary community crime control groups. We support institutional changes, consistent with full respect for the rights of the accused, that would permit victims to direct the prosecution in criminal cases.

[listopencil]

Victimless Crimes

Because only actions that infringe on the rights of others can properly be termed crimes, we favor the repeal of all federal, state, and local laws creating "crimes" without victims. In particular, we advocate:


the repeal of all laws prohibiting the production, sale, possession, or use of drugs, and of all medicinal prescription requirements for the purchase of vitamins, drugs, and similar substances;

the repeal of all laws restricting or prohibiting the use or sale of alcohol, requiring health warning labels and signs, making bartenders or hosts responsible for the behavior of customers and guests, making liquor companies liable for birth defects, and making gambling houses liable for the losses of intoxicated gamblers;

the repeal of all laws or policies authorizing stopping drivers without probable cause to test for alcohol or drug use;

the repeal of all laws regarding consensual sexual relations, including prostitution and solicitation, and the cessation of state oppression and harassment of homosexual men and women, that they, at last, be accorded their full rights as individuals;

the repeal of all laws regulating or prohibiting the possession, use, sale, production, or distribution of sexually explicit material, independent of "socially redeeming value" or compliance with "community standards";


the repeal of all laws regulating or prohibiting gambling;


the repeal of anti-racketeering statutes such as the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO), which punish peaceful behavior -- including insider trading in securities, sale of sexually explicit material, and nonviolent anti-abortion protests -- by freezing and/or seizing assets of the accused or convicted; and


the repeal of all laws interfering with the right to commit suicide as infringements of the ultimate right of an individual to his or her own life.

We demand the use of executive pardon to free and exonerate all those presently incarcerated or ever convicted solely for the commission of these "crimes." We condemn the wholesale confiscation of property prior to conviction by the state that all too often accompanies police raids, searches, and prosecutions for victimless crimes.

Further, we recognize that, often, the Federal Government blackmails states which refuse to comply with these laws by withholding funds and we applaud those states which refuse to be so coerced.

[listopencil]

The War on Drugs

The so-called "War on Drugs" is a grave threat to individual liberty, to domestic order and to peace in the world; furthermore, it has provided a rationale by which the power of the state has been expanded to restrict greatly our right to privacy and to be secure in our homes.

We call for the repeal of all laws establishing criminal or civil penalties for the use of drugs and of "anti-crime" measures restricting individual rights to be secure in our persons, homes, and property, or limiting our rights to keep and bear arms.

[listopencil]

Safeguards for the Criminally Accused

Until such time as persons are proved guilty of crimes, they should be accorded full respect for their individual rights. We are thus opposed to reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused.

We oppose labeling cases as "civil" strictly to avoid the due process protections of criminal law and we further oppose governmental civil and criminal pretrial seizure of property for criminal offenses.

We oppose police officers using excessive force on the disorderly or the criminally accused, handing out what they may consider to be instant punishments on the streets, preventive detention, and no-knock laws. Instant-punishment policies deprive the accused of important checks on government power -- juries and the judicial process. We oppose any concept that some individuals are by nature second-class citizens who only understand instant punishment and any claim that the police possess special insight into recognizing persons in need of punishment.

We support full restitution for all loss suffered by persons arrested, indicted, tried, imprisoned, or otherwise injured in the course of criminal proceedings against them that do not result in their conviction. When they are responsible, government police employees or agents should be liable for this restitution.

We call for a reform of the judicial system allowing criminal defendants and civil parties to a court action a reasonable number of peremptory challenges to proposed judges, similar to their right under the present system to challenge a proposed juror.

[listopencil]

Justice for the Individual

The present system of criminal law is based almost solely on punishment with little concern for the victim. We support restitution for the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or wrongdoer.

We oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense.

We oppose all "no-fault" insurance laws, which deprive the victim of the right to recover damages from those responsible in the case of injury. We also support the right of the victim to pardon the criminal or wrongdoer, barring threats to the victim for this purpose. We applaud the growth of private adjudication of disputes by mutually acceptable judges.

We support a change in rape laws so that cohabitation will no longer be a defense against a charge of rape.

[listopencil]

Juries

We oppose the current practice of forced jury duty and favor all-volunteer juries. In addition, we urge the assertion of the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law. In all cases to which the government is a party, the judge should be required to inform the jurors of their common law right to judge the law, as well as the facts, and to acquit a criminal defendant, and to find against the government in a civil trial, whenever they deem the law unjust or oppressive.

[Spider]

Wow ... Most I ever did when I was little was steal a Moped and try to have sex with girl next door ..........

[listopencil]

Individual Sovereignty

The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights -- life, liberty, and justly acquired property -- against aggression, whether by force or fraud. This right inheres in the individual, who -- with his or her consent -- may be aided by any other individual or group.

The right of defense extends to defense against aggressive acts of government. We favor an immediate end to the doctrine of "Sovereign Immunity" which ignores the primacy of the individual over the abstraction of the State, and holds that the State, contrary to the tradition of redress of grievances, may not be sued without its permission or held accountable for its actions under civil law.

[listopencil]

Government and Mental Health

We oppose the involuntary commitment of any person to or involuntary treatment in a mental institution.

We advocate an end to the spending of tax money for any program of psychiatric, psychological, or behavioral research or treatment.

We favor an end to the acceptance of criminal defenses based on "insanity" or "diminished capacity" which absolve the guilty of their responsibility.

[plummerrox]

When I was a little boy - I couldn't wait for the next Star Wars Action Figures commercial, thought Pop Rocks were the wildest candy in the world and wanted to be a fire truck when I grew up.

That worked for me

[listopencil]

Freedom of Communication

We defend the rights of individuals to unrestricted freedom of speech, freedom of the press and the right of individuals to dissent from government itself. We recognize that full freedom of expression is possible only as part of a system of full property rights. The freedom to use one's own voice; the freedom to hire a hall; the freedom to own a printing press, a broadcasting station, or a transmission cable; the freedom to wave or burn one's own flag; and similar property-based freedoms are precisely what constitute freedom of communication. At the same time, we recognize that freedom of communication does not extend to the use of other people's property to promote one's ideas without the voluntary consent of the owners.

We oppose any abridgment of the freedom of speech through government censorship, regulation or control of communications media, including, but not limited to, laws concerning:


Obscenity, including "pornography", as we hold this to be an abridgment of liberty of expression despite claims that it instigates rape or assault, or demeans and slanders women;


Reception and storage equipment, such as digital audio tape recorders and radar warning devices, and the manufacture of video terminals by telephone companies;


Electronic bulletin boards, communications networks, and other interactive electronic media as we hold them to be the functional equivalent of speaking halls and printing presses in the age of electronic communications, and as such deserving of full freedom;


Electronic newspapers, electronic "Yellow Pages", and other new information media, as these deserve full freedom.


Commercial speech or advertising.

We oppose speech codes at all schools that are primarily tax funded. Language that is deemed offensive to certain groups is not a cause for legal action.

We favor the abolition of the Federal Communications Commission as we would provide for free market ownership of airwave frequencies, deserving of full First Amendment protection.

We oppose government ownership or subsidy of, or funding for, any communications organization.

We strongly oppose the government's burgeoning practice of invading newsrooms, or the premises of other innocent third parties, in the name of law enforcement. We further oppose court orders gagging news coverage of criminal proceedings -- the right to publish and broadcast must not be abridged merely for the convenience of the judicial system. We deplore any efforts to impose thought control on the media, either by the use of anti-trust laws, or by any other government action in the name of stopping "bias."

Removal of all of these regulations and practices throughout the communications media would open the way to diversity and innovation. We shall not be satisfied until the First Amendment is expanded to protect full, unconditional freedom of communication.

[listopencil]

Freedom of Religion

We defend the rights of individuals to engage in (or abstain from) any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. In order to defend freedom, we advocate a strict separation of church and State. We oppose government actions that either aid or attack any religion. We oppose taxation of church property for the same reason that we oppose all taxation. We oppose the harassment of churches by the Internal Revenue Service through threats to deny tax-exempt status to churches that refuse to disclose massive amounts of information about themselves.

We condemn the attempts by parents or any others -- via kidnappings or conservatorships -- to force children to conform to any religious views. Government harassment or obstruction of religious groups for their beliefs or non-violent activities must end.

[listopencil]

The Right to Property

There is no conflict between property rights and human rights. Indeed, property rights are the rights of humans with respect to property, and as such, are entitled to the same respect and protection as all other human rights.

All rights are inextricably linked with property rights. Such rights as the freedom from involuntary servitude as well as the freedom of speech and the freedom of press are based on self-ownership. Our bodies are our property every bit as much as is justly acquired land or material objects.

We further hold that the owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others. We oppose all violations of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of trade done in the name of national security. We also condemn current government efforts to regulate or ban the use of property in the name of aesthetic values, riskiness, moral standards, cost-benefit estimates, or the promotion or restriction of economic growth. We specifically condemn all government interference in the operation of private businesses, such as restaurants and airlines, by either requiring or prohibiting designated smoking or non-smoking areas for their employees or their customers.

We demand an end to the taxation of privately owned real property, which actually makes the State the owner of all lands and forces individuals to rent their homes and places of business from the State. We condemn attempts to employ eminent domain to municipalize sports teams or to try to force them to stay in their present location.

Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners.

[broncolife]

Finally I finished reading Robbs posts.(Broncolife looks at listopencil posts) Yikes!aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

[listopencil]

Protection of Privacy

The individual's right to privacy, property, and right to speak or not to speak should not be infringed by the government. The government should not use electronic or other means of covert surveillance of an individual's actions or private property without the consent of the owner or occupant. Correspondence, bank and other financial transactions and records, doctors' and lawyers' communications, employment records, and the like should not be open to review by government without the consent of all parties involved in those actions.

The individual's right to privacy, property, and right to speak or not to speak should not be infringed by the government. The government should not use electronic or other means of covert surveillance of an individual's actions or private property without the consent of the owner or occupant. Correspondence, bank and other financial transactions and records, doctors' and lawyers' communications, employment records, and the like should not be open to review by government without the consent of all parties involved in those actions.

We support the protections provided by the Fourth Amendment and oppose any government use of search warrants to examine or seize materials belonging to innocent third parties. We also oppose police roadblocks aimed at randomly, and without probable cause, testing drivers for intoxication and police practices to stop mass transit vehicles and search passengers without probable cause.

So long as the National Census and all federal, state, and other government agencies' compilations of data on an individual continue to exist, they should be conducted only with the consent of the persons from whom the data is sought.

We oppose all restrictions and regulations on the private development, sale, and use of encryption technology. We specifically oppose any requirement for disclosure of encryption methods or keys, including the government's proposals for so-called "key escrow" which is truly government access to keys, and any requirement for use of government- specified devices or protocols. We also oppose government classification of civilian research on encryption methods.

If a private employer screens prospective or current employees via questionnaires, polygraph tests, urine tests for drugs, blood tests for AIDS, or other means, this is a condition of that employer's labor contracts. Such screening does not violate the rights of employees, who have the right to boycott such employers if they choose. Private contractual arrangements, including labor contracts, must be founded on mutual consent and agreement in a society that upholds freedom of association. On the other hand, we oppose any use of such screening by government or regulations requiring government contractors to impose any such screening.

We oppose government regulations that require employers to provide health insurance coverage for employees, which often encourage unnecessary intrusions by employers into the privacy of their employees.

We oppose the issuance by the government of an identity card, to be required for any purpose, such as employment, voting, or border crossing.

We further oppose the nearly universal requirement for use of the Social Security Number as a personal identification code, whether by government agencies or by intimidation of private companies by governments.

[McDortoh]

Did anyone read that whole freaking thing ???

[listopencil]

Government Secrecy

We condemn the government's use of secret classifications to keep from the public information that it should have. We favor substituting a system in which no individual may be convicted for violating government secrecy classifications unless the government discharges its burden of proving that the publication:


violated the right of privacy of those who have been coerced into revealing confidential or proprietary information to government agents, or


disclosed defensive military plans so as to materially impair the capabilities to respond to attack.

It should always be a defense to such prosecution that information divulged shows that the government has violated the law.

[Spider]

Did anyone read that whole freaking thing ???
Not me , I wasnt even going to open this thread , but I saw Listo posting over and Over , and thought wow somthing good is going on ........

[listopencil]

Internal Security and Civil Liberties

We call for abolition of secret police, such as the Central Intelligence Agency. We support Congressional investigation of criminal activities of the CIA and FBI and of wrongdoing by other governmental agencies.

We support the abolition of the subpoena power as used by Congressional committees against individuals or firms. We oppose any efforts to revive the House Internal Security Committee or its predecessor the House Un-American Activities Committee, and call for the destruction of its files on private individuals and groups. We also call for the abolition of the Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security.

[orange 4 life]

For some reason your avatar always has me thinking your Taco John.

i think its because he used to have the same kind of photo.
instead of jerry he had buffet.

parrot heads, Deadheads, whatever right?

i actually had the same thought when i changed it last time.
i think its time for another change.
no more confusion.

jake

[listopencil]

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms

The Bill of Rights recognizes that an armed citizenry is essential to a free society. We affirm the right to keep and bear arms and oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, regulating, or requiring the ownership, manufacture, transfer, or sale of firearms or ammunition. We oppose all laws requiring registration of firearms or ammunition. We also oppose any government efforts to ban or restrict the use of tear gas, "mace," or other self-protection devices. We further oppose all attempts to ban weapons or ammunition on the grounds that they are risky or unsafe.

We support repeal of the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, and we demand the immediate abolition of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

We favor the repeal of laws banning the concealment of weapons or prohibiting pocket weapons. We also oppose the banning of inexpensive handguns ("Saturday night specials"), and semi-automatic or so-called assault weapons and their magazines or feeding devices

[broncolife]

Oh crap, I missed two more of Robbs posts.

[listopencil]

Not me , I wasnt even going to open this thread , but I saw Listo posting over and Over , and thought wow somthing good is going on ........

Sorry to mislead you, I'm just polluting up yet another of Robb's spam threads with my own spam.

[Spider]

LOL .Listo is just giving Robb a taste of his own medicine

[Spider]

Sorry to mislead you, I'm just polluting up yet another of Robb's spam threads with my own spam.
Naw Let it roll ........... good Job

[listopencil]

Oh crap, I missed two more of Robbs posts.


If you have any spam-worthy material laying around, this would be a good place for it.

[listopencil]

Conscription and the Military

Recognizing that registration is the first step toward full conscription, we oppose all attempts at compulsory registration of any person and all schemes for automatic registration through government invasions of the privacy of school, motor vehicle, or other records. We call for the abolition of the still-functioning elements of the Selective Service System, believing that impressment of individuals into the armed forces is involuntary servitude. We call for the destruction of all files in computer-readable or hard-copy form compiled by the Selective Service System. We also oppose any form of national service, such as a compulsory youth labor program.

We oppose adding women to the pool of those eligible for and subject to the draft, not because we think that as a rule women are unfit for combat, but because we believe that this step enlarges the number of people subjected to government tyranny.

We support the immediate and unconditional exoneration of all who have been accused or convicted of draft evasion, desertion from the military, and other acts of resistance to such transgressions as imperialistic wars and aggressive acts of the military. Members of the military should have the same right to quit their jobs as other persons.

We call for the end of the Defense Department practice of discharging armed forces personnel for homosexual conduct. We further call for retraction of all less-than-honorable discharges previously assigned for such reasons and deletion of such information from military personnel files.

We recommend the repeal of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the recognition and equal protection of the rights of armed forces members. This will thereby promote morale, dignity, and a sense of justice within the military.

[listopencil]

Immigration

We hold that human rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of nationality. We condemn massive roundups of Hispanic Americans and others by the federal government in its hunt for individuals not possessing required government documents. We strongly oppose all measures that punish employers who hire undocumented workers. Such measures repress free enterprise, harass workers, and systematically discourage employers from hiring Hispanics.

We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new "Berlin Wall" which would keep them captive. We condemn the U.S. government's policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage to help them escape tyranny or improve their economic prospects.

Undocumented non-citizens should not be denied the fundamental freedom to labor and to move about unmolested. Furthermore, immigration must not be restricted for reasons of race, religion, political creed, age, or sexual preference.

We therefore call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally. We oppose government welfare and resettlement payments to non-citizens just as we oppose government welfare payments to all other persons.

[baja]

Government Secrecy

We condemn the government's use of secret classifications to keep from the public information that it should have. We favor substituting a system in which no individual may be convicted for violating government secrecy classifications unless the government discharges its burden of proving that the publication:


violated the right of privacy of those who have been coerced into revealing confidential or proprietary information to government agents, or


disclosed defensive military plans so as to materially impair the capabilities to respond to attack.

Apparently George W. Bush did not get this memo

It should always be a defense to such prosecution that information divulged shows that the government has violated the law.

Apparently George W. Bush did not get this memo

[listopencil]

Freedom of Association and Government Discrimination

Individual rights should not be denied, abridged, or enhanced at the expense of other people's rights by laws at any level of government based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference, or sexual orientation.

We support repealing any such laws rather than extending them to all individuals.

Discrimination imposed by government has caused a multitude of problems. Anti-discrimination laws create the same problems. While we do not advocate private discrimination, we do not support any laws which attempt to limit or ban it.

The right to trade includes the right not to trade -- for any reasons whatsoever; the right of association includes the right not to associate, for exercise of this right depends upon mutual consent.

[listopencil]

Apparently George W. Bush did not get this memo

Nah, this is material from the Libertarian platform, or "manifesto" if you will. George W. Bush is far from being a Libertarian. If anything, he is proving himself to be an Authoritarian. That's why I'm not going to vote for him.

[listopencil]

Women's Rights and Abortion

We hold that individual rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of sex. We call for repeal of all laws discriminating against women, such as protective labor laws and marriage or divorce laws which deny the full rights of men and women. We oppose all laws likely to impose restrictions on free choice and private property or to widen tyranny through reverse discrimination.

Recognizing that abortion is a very sensitive issue and that libertarians can hold good-faith views on both sides, we believe the government should be kept entirely out of the question, allowing all individuals to be guided by their own consciences. We oppose all restrictions on the sale of RU 486, and on the sale of menstruation-inducing contragestive pills, which block fertilized eggs from attaching themselves to the womb. We oppose legislation restricting or subsidizing women's access to abortion or other reproductive health services; this includes requiring consent of the prospective father, waiting periods, and mandatory indoctrination on fetal development, as well as Medicaid or any other taxpayer funding. It is particularly harsh to force someone who believes that abortion is murder to pay for another's abortion.

We also condemn state-mandated abortions.

It is the right and obligation of the pregnant woman, not the state, to decide the desirability or appropriateness of prenatal testing, Caesarean births, fetal surgery, voluntary surrogacy arrangements, and/or home births.

[listopencil]

Family Life

We support protection of the integrity of families and households as contractual institutions against government intrusion and interference. Such governmental interference has undermined the value of families and households as cultural institutions of love, nurture, companionship, kinship, and personal development by forcing them to conform to a rigid, inflexible design. Moreover, we condemn the usurpation by government through morals laws, government welfare programs, and government schools, of activities long carried on by families and households. We further accuse government of designing educational programs that place civic and moral education under the control of politicians and of designing welfare laws that destroy families and households.

[listopencil]

Sexual Rights

We believe that adults have the right to private choice in consensual sexual activity.

We oppose any government attempt to dictate, prohibit, control, or encourage any private lifestyle, living arrangement or contractual relationship.

We support repeal of existing laws and policies which are intended to condemn, affirm, encourage, or deny sexual lifestyles or any set of attitudes about such lifestyles.

[listopencil]

American Indian Rights

The rights of American Indians have been usurped over the years. We support the following remedies: (1) individuals should be free to select their own citizenship and tribes should be free to select the level of autonomy the tribe wishes, (2) Indians should have their property rights restored, including rights of easement, access, hunting, and fishing, (3) the Bureau of Indian Affairs should be abolished leaving tribal members to determine their own system of governance, and (4) negotiations should be undertaken to resolve all outstanding differences between the tribes and the government.

[listopencil]

This is just the first part of the platform-

I. Individual Rights and Civil Order


There are four parts in all, I'm getting tired of cutting-and-pasting.

It's located here-

http://www.lp.org/organization/history/platform/1998/platform_print.html#i

[Robb]

I'm about to staple Listo to the Orange Mane bulletin board.

[Rock Chalk]

The War on Drugs

The so-called "War on Drugs" is a grave threat to individual liberty, to domestic order and to peace in the world; furthermore, it has provided a rationale by which the power of the state has been expanded to restrict greatly our right to privacy and to be secure in our homes.

We call for the repeal of all laws establishing criminal or civil penalties for the use of drugs and of "anti-crime" measures restricting individual rights to be secure in our persons, homes, and property, or limiting our rights to keep and bear arms.

Yep, I wonder how you'd feel when the local crackhead broke into your home and killed your family for being there while trying to rob you blind so he could get money for his legal crack habit.

[Rock Chalk]

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms

The Bill of Rights recognizes that an armed citizenry is essential to a free society. We affirm the right to keep and bear arms and oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, regulating, or requiring the ownership, manufacture, transfer, or sale of firearms or ammunition. We oppose all laws requiring registration of firearms or ammunition. We also oppose any government efforts to ban or restrict the use of tear gas, "mace," or other self-protection devices. We further oppose all attempts to ban weapons or ammunition on the grounds that they are risky or unsafe.

We support repeal of the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, and we demand the immediate abolition of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

We favor the repeal of laws banning the concealment of weapons or prohibiting pocket weapons. We also oppose the banning of inexpensive handguns ("Saturday night specials"), and semi-automatic or so-called assault weapons and their magazines or feeding devices

Again I wonder what your position would be if your family was killed by an automatic weapon like a Mac-10 that has no useful purpose other than to spray massive amounts of bullets in a small area at a terrible accuracy rate. Not exactly "hunting" material there is it.

[listopencil]

Yep, I wonder how you'd feel when the local crackhead broke into your home and killed your family for being there while trying to rob you blind so he could get money for his legal crack habit.


I wouldn't feel too bad when I came home to find that my wife had shot said crackhead in the skull before he ever got the chance to do anything. Assuming that the government doesn't amend the Constitution to take away my right to keep and bear arms of course. But no one would be silly enough to rewrite the Constitution in this day and age would they? Oh...that's right...Bush is that silly.

[listopencil]

Again I wonder what your position would be if your family was killed by an automatic weapon like a Mac-10 that has no useful purpose other than to spray massive amounts of bullets in a small area at a terrible accuracy rate. Not exactly "hunting" material there is it.


I would feel the same as when my family member was killed with a knife. It's the murderer's fault, not the weapon's. Punish the ones who are actually commiting crimes rather than trying to take something away from law abiding citizens.

[listopencil]

I'm about to staple Listo to the Orange Mane bulletin board.



Did you type that yourself or did you copy-and-paste that from somewhere?

[Mile High Shack]

I seriously can't read all of that...my attention span isn't long enough anymore

when I was a little boy I had nintendo and it ruined my attention span......

[Rock Chalk]

I wouldn't feel too bad when I came home to find that my wife had shot said crackhead in the skull before he ever got the chance to do anything. Assuming that the government doesn't amend the Constitution to take away my right to keep and bear arms of course. But no one would be silly enough to rewrite the Constitution in this day and age would they? Oh...that's right...Bush is that silly.

so you are positive that your wife will have a gun handy in the event of a break in, be capable of killing another person without hesitation and without remorse?

I will get to the bear arms comment in a moment.

[Rock Chalk]

I would feel the same as when my family member was killed with a knife. It's the murderer's fault, not the weapon's. Punish the ones who are actually commiting crimes rather than trying to take something away from law abiding citizens.

Yes indeed it is the murderer's fault. But killing with a Mac-10 is a lot easier than with a knife.

Im not for banning all firearms. Hell if you've seen the "Post Your Pic" thread I have proof of that (being as that I have a collection of firearms and ammunition for them). I am however for the banning of firearms designed for the sole purpose of killing human beings without regard to innocence. While any firearm may be used as such, assault weapons have no purpose OTHER than killing human beings.

Hunters do not use them to shoot the local dove and/or deer population.

[baja]

What about a flock of dove?

[listopencil]

so you are positive that your wife will have a gun handy in the event of a break in, be capable of killing another person without hesitation and without remorse?

I will get to the bear arms comment in a moment.

Yep. We moved to a small town (away from Sacramento) when we started popping kids out left and right. We did that so we wouldn't have to keep loaded weapons immediately accessible. But that's a choice we made because we have children in our household. We have arranged our work schedules so that one of us is always off, one of us is always home with the kids. Neither I nor my wife would hesitate to kill in order to defend ourselves and our children. She's actually a bit more cold blooded than I am in that respect.

[baja]

[Hogan11]

Robb is a great example of why an ignore feature is absolutely necessary.

[listopencil]

Yes indeed it is the murderer's fault. But killing with a Mac-10 is a lot easier than with a knife.

Im not for banning all firearms. Hell if you've seen the "Post Your Pic" thread I have proof of that (being as that I have a collection of firearms and ammunition for them). I am however for the banning of firearms designed for the sole purpose of killing human beings without regard to innocence. While any firearm may be used as such, assault weapons have no purpose OTHER than killing human beings.

Hunters do not use them to shoot the local dove and/or deer population.

I understand the difference between a fully automatic weapon and one that is designed for hunting. Banning them doesn't solve the problem, though. Making something illegal doesn't make it go away.

[listopencil]

What about a flock of dove?

Well, see, you have a point there. How can you kill a flock of birds without a fully auto weapon? Seriously though, shotgun.

[Robb]

One of the blessings of parenthood is that God mercifully seems to grant us a second chance to relive our childhood in some ways, we re experience, traumas, forgive, and heal the wounds of our youth, to become whole. Homeschooling offers an exquisite opportunity for this healing. I think Listo could have used this healing. Maybe listo was sent to Catholic boarding school at the tender age of five, and grew up for the next five years in the hands of frustrated impatient nuns from Hades. Maybe list memories are mostly outrageous and injustices, like being forced to stand in a corner with the spiders if she didn't finish her meal or committed some other imagined offensive. Maybe she grew up, those convent years receded from her mind, but something has made their mark on Listos soul. Years back, while discussing whether to send our child to private school or to homeschool, public school has never been on the table, I am responsible. Who has a better right to teach them than me? Let that truth penetrate your mind, and Pierce your heart. I can say the homeschooling has been a journey, sometimes bumpy, occasionally tumultuous, but overall a wonderful, painful, well-planned, spontaneous, serene and rollicking adventure. But it's not just about better curriculum and protecting your kids from school shooters, lesbian poetry and jihad studies. It's a way of life for the entire family. I've watched as every family member has grown in character, I have filled gaps in my own educations by teaching, and learning, history, geography, literature, science, math and more. And I have even forgiven the nuns for their thoughtless cruel discipline to Listo. But more deeply, and ultimately more importantly, the homeschooling experience is sewing our family together as a unit. For the family that learns to learn together, work together and play together is the family where the siblings become best friends for life, and their families become a rock, a powerful godly subculture, to which they can always return for guidance and rest. As for my boyhood question, is that all there is? It has been answered most graciously. A gentle and progressive unfolding of understanding from that "other dimension" beyond time and space. With Jesus as my compass, and guided by the Scriptures, the blueprint for our character, shown with exquisite clarity in the life and words of Jesus Christ, I hope, like every Christian dad hopes, to lead my wife and child safely toward that distant shore. After all, we are Pilgrims. "And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up."

[Moon§hiner]

I just hope they don't ban dynamite....that's going to ruin the weekend fishing trips with me and my dad

[listopencil]

Thomas Jefferson:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.


SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

[listopencil]

Nice fantasy life, Robb. Here, let me try. I can imagine that you cowered in the corner of your bedroom as a child while your Mom gave sexual favors to every passing merchant. The paperboy, the milkman, the mailman, etc. I bet she ran and grabbed her Bible after every consumation. She probably begged you to pray with her for her own immortal soul and as a way a way of explaining her indescretions as sin, no fault of her own. You grew into a boy haunted by his own dark past, clinging to your religion as a way of keeping yourself clean and pure, demanding that Christ save you from yourself. Now you see indendant thinkers and are scared, secretly jealous of their ability to make decisions based solely on their own principles. Principles unfettered by the brainwashing of overzealous parents determined to find someone, anyone to blame for their shortcomings. Poor Robb.

[listopencil]

Jefferson again:

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

[listopencil]

More Jefferson:

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

[listopencil]

Also Adams:

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

[listopencil]

Here's Thomas Paine:

I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.

[listopencil]

Finally let's hear from James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

[listopencil]

Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they—the Baptists—who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a "one-way wall" that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's.

In the last five years the Baptists have been taken over by a fundamentalist faction that insists authority comes from the Bible and that the individual must accept the interpretation of the Bible from a higher authority. These usurpers of the Baptist faith are those who insist they should meddle in the affairs of the government and it is they who insist the government should meddle in the beliefs of individuals.

The price of Liberty is constant vigilance. Religious fundamentalism and zealous patriotism have always been the forces which require the greatest attention.

[listopencil]

Oh, By the way:

Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

[BroncoHI]

Why did I read this thread?

[Spider]

I seriously can't read all of that...my attention span isn't long enough anymore

when I was a little boy I had nintendo and it ruined my attention span......
LOL .........
I just hope they don't ban dynamite....that's going to ruin the weekend fishing trips with me and my dad
LOL ..........

[orange 4 life]

this is really giving me a good laugh, because through it all robb just keeps posting his long sermons that as of yet no one has read.
this is unintentional humor of course, but its still the funniest thread ive read in awhile.
thanks robb and listo.
i mean no offense to anyone by this statement. im just finding a much needed laugh.

jake

[listopencil]

Why did I read this thread?


I don't honestly understand why anyone would read through all of this stuff. Unless you're fond of spam.

[listopencil]

Spam, spam,spam,spam...spam,spam,spam,spam


<embed src="http://www.montypythonpages.com/sounds/MP-SPAM2.WAV" loop=99">

[Moon§hiner]

Why did I read this thread?
Actually I read almost everything that Listo cut and pasted because it's an analogue of history that I have read from other sources....I'll save my thoughts on Robb's quotings of scripture that has been manipulated to satisfy the masses for another post...I have to type, I can find no website to post my thoughts without wearing out my keyboard

[listopencil]

I'll try to post the audio of the Monty Python Spam sketch. For anyone not familiar with the show, this is how the term "Spam" came to represent content that you encounter on the internet that you don't really want. Like when someone posts huge articles, or cuts-and-pastes paragraph after paragraph instead of actually creating posts on a messageboard.

<embed src="http://www.frogstar.com/wav/displaywav.asp?fil=spam.wav">

And yes, I realise that to some of you this will constitute "Spam". But this appears to be the very thread for it.

[Spider]

Somthing youthought you would never hear .................... MORE SPAM PLEASE ;D

[Crushaholic]

I just find it hilarious that this thread has grown to 5 pages and still growing. Usually ol' Robb is ignored...

[Tredici]

I don't think that has changed, Crushaholic...

All though it has probably been mentioned somewhere in previously posting, is there a better representative of what occurs when there is no separation of church and state than the Middle East?

Thousands of years of existence. Progress? Little to none.

[Crushaholic]

I don't think that has changed, Crushaholic...

All though it has probably been mentioned somewhere in previously posting, is there a better representative of what occurs when there is no separation of church and state than the Middle East?

Thousands of years of existence. Progress? Little to none.

I don't think the terrorist activity is a true representation of the Muslim faith. If it IS, then I won't consider the Muslim religion a legitimate religion.

[Pezman]

A Reading from the Book of Armaments, Chapter 4, Verses 16 to 20:



"Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ... Now did the Lord say, "First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

[Arkie]

When I was a little boy, I used to look up at the stars and pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.

[SJ Bronco]

LOL Hilarious! \

BTW-I love this skit.

Does anyone realize that Robbs a moron and an anti-American way bigot that likes to waste everyones time and mental energy with his three page long "announcments" that he has no life. Can we just ignore him. The more posts we add to this dumb ass, the more he'll post. just neg rep him and move along. I hate to see a large group of intelligent people argue with a degenerate like Robb. Now, if you ask me, TJ should be the most upset, how much Bandwidth does robb take up when he rambles like that? Gotta get expensive!

[Robb]

Originally Posted by Robb
Yes, I'm making a outrageous statement. First, all parents who were married and have no extraordinary circumstances to stop them, should today, I said today, remove their children from public school. If you are thinking of getting married you should postpone the wedding until it is agreed that if you have children, one of you will stay home to educate. All sacrifices of material wealth should be made to meet this end.

First, the definition of education. The bringing up, as of a child, instruction, formation of manners, enlightenment and understanding, correct the temper, and form the manners and habits of youth, and fit them for usefulness in their future stations. To give children a good education and manners, arts and science, is important, to give them a religious education is indispensable, and an immense responsibility rest on parents and guardians who neglect these duties. - Webster's dictionary 1828.

Now let's look at the definition given by today's Merriam-Webster Colgate dictionary online.

The act or process of educating or being educated, a stage of such process, the knowledge and development resulting from an educational process, the field of study that deals mainly with methods of teaching and learning in schools.

That sound you hear is Noah Webster spinning in his grave. This is the dictionary your government schoolchildren and teachers use. Someone decides which books and reference materials are used in the schools. They are selected by the state. The history books, philosophy books, science books are all selected by the government! Even the definition of words becomes a de facto function of government. It's appalling, it turns my stomach, because education is a decidedly religious activity. Why? All human endeavor is constrained, informed, defined in and printed with the worldview of individual or institution. And worldview is the belief system determined by religious belief? It is defined by the answers given to a few questions.

What is the purpose of life? What happens when we die? How did life come into being?

Your answers to these questions determine how you approach every single endeavor of your life. All institutions have a worldview too, and it affects every single endeavor in which they engage. Therefore, the simple act of defining the word education, requires judgment. OK you say, don't just teach anything which requires worldview judgments. That's impossible, let's see why. Take history class as example,

Student: Was Hitler right to kill Jews?

Teacher: No

Student: Why?

Teacher: because it is wrong to kill innocent people.

Student: Why? [This is where it gets sticky. The answer is determined solely by your worldview.]

Teacher: Because God says so.[Now that is the correct answer, but we can't talk about the reality of God in government schools so...]

Teacher: because it's against the law!

Student: Why?

Teacher: because the government says so!

Student: What if the government says it's OK?

Teacher: But the government wouldn't say that!

Student: The government of Germany did.

You see, our system forbids government to teach morality, it cannot teach about the Holocaust. To take the concept of immorality out of the subject of the Holocaust is impossible without denying truth. Education by definition requires the search for truth. Therefore government must teach about immorality, which the government can't do. Therefore, the government can't teach. That's why Government education is an oxymoron.

Government can't educate without a destroying the very object of education, the search for truth. Either government employees dictate truth, to the impressionable youth or the government employee insists that object truth does not exist. Either alternative is ludicrous and unthinkable to the rational mind.

By its very nature, government is hostile to any authority higher than itself. God, being that authority, will eventually be removed from all subjects in order to lift up the state by marginalizing or eradicating the reality of God. Government is power in force. Inherently, government only checks its growth when forced. One way to consolidate its power is to indoctrinate youth in their most formative years, and that philosophy will never be eradicated.

Lenin said: "Give me a child for the first five years of his life and he will be mine forever." Lincoln said: " The philosophy of the schoolroom in one generation will be the philosophy of governance in the next." We reject established religion and state-controlled press in our nation, yet the single greatest guarantee of those two evils is government education. Government controlled education is a means to it an end, not the end itself. A parent will sacrifice many things in defiance of tyranny, name, position, money, power. But when it comes to our kids, the state knows are Achilles' heel and it will use that to its advantage. The threat of social service thugs invading the homes of innocent Americans to wrest the children from the parents arms in retaliation or for purposes of intimidation has been exhaustively documented.

Government control education allows government to set the standards of what is taught and how it is taught. Is government able to teach anything that will contradict its own interests? The answer is a resounding no! Government cannot self critique. Are all American wars moral? Is paper money constitutional? Is the Federal Reserve legal? Were Wilson, FDR or LBJ good presidents and moral men? Is Ritalin good for children? Is ADD caused by the methods of government education? The mandated vaccinations cause crib death, asthma and allergies? Is there anything safe about sex outside of marriage? Does abortion kill a baby? Do we live in a democracy or a Republic? Is Socialism moral and is man destroying the earth? If you can't tell me the civil government answer to these questions, you haven't been in a government school! The issues are dressed every day and they are framed with the government's perspective. If the child objects, he or she is made and object of ridicule and disgust by government school educators and students. Now asked yourself, is that the role of Republican government?

[Robb]

The question I want to ask you is... Do you want to get your kid into the college of their choice? Increasing numbers of homeschooled are getting the attention of even the most elite colleges. It's also the test scores. Homeschooled SAT takers have higher scores on the SAT than the entire SAT taking population as a whole, the homeschooled students averaging 568 on the verbal test out of a possible 800, and 525 on the math, compared with 506 verbal and 514 math for the national average of SAT test takers. College admissions offices also cite other plus factors for homeschoolers. For example, many colleges are looking for diversity among their prospective students, and that includes homeschooling rather than the cookie-cutter backgrounds of public and prep school counterparts. Any admissions officer will tell you they like students who bring a unique experience to campus, whether that means homeschoolers or students who have lived in... Thailand. This is a quote of Harvard University Director of admissions, "often were impressed by what someone has done under unusual circumstances, and homeschooling fits the bill." Homeschooled students are impressing top colleges in other ways too. The distinguishing factor for admission selection is intellectual vitality. And homeschoolers have it folks. Stanford, has been so impressed with its homeschooled applicants that its admissions office began tracking homeschooled students since 1999 to learn more about them. Stanford and other prestigious schools now special guidelines abiding students with appropriate SAT's who have been homeschooled how best to approach the College admissions procedures so as to make up for their lack of traditional credentials, including that absent transcript with its grades and list of courses taken. But, approximate one half of American colleges and universities require homeschooled students to take additional standardized test, sometimes including the GED high school equivalency test and some even as many as eight SATII subject tests. Which equals to a heavy load of testing, and is nothing more than government harassment. So if you need help in the process that is difficult for most, all schooling experts advise students to build a document record of activities in their community to provide evidence of leadership, the quality prize by many colleges. They also like homeschooled students to get to know influential adults who might write letters recommended that otherwise would be written by teachers. So there are some obstacles to overcome, but you can do it, your kids deserve the very best.

[kappys]

All right. Robb has now cut + paste this thing onto 3 different threads. This has got to stop at some point. People can respond to this in the Butt, or in the POlitics forum. Enough is enough.

[Robb]

The school respect for the founding fathers cannot be missed, from the front door to the heart of its program. It's those principles of freedom that articulate the need to be taken to the Next Generation if we are ever going to have any leaders that understand what it takes to maintain a free country. I'm telling you that a higher caliber of students that schools seek most are found in the home school movement. I'm telling you we need to create schools that have the intellectual rigor of the Ivy League today and the spiritual character of the Ivy League 200 years ago. Can you understand that? Or do you need to graduate little Johnny's drone curriculum before you are granted a clue? I'm talking about competing with the nation's elite institutions. Creationism is considered faux science. It's not enough to teach evolution. Apparently, we have to teach that evolution is the only way to think about things. Do you want to get your kids into a competitive law school, like William and Mary College, George Mason University and American University? Wake up America!

[Robb]

All right. Robb has now cut + paste this thing onto 3 different threads. This has got to stop at some point. People can respond to this in the Butt, or in the POlitics forum. Enough is enough.


Quiet kid, the moderators are in that narrow range of joyless existence between happiness and sleep. They already monitor my REM patterns and beep whenever I nod off. They have sensors that detect my pulse and breathing rates to determine whether I'm downloading pornography. Yes, moderators must sleep too.

[Hogan11]

What is this garbage doing in The Underground??

[orange 4 life]

his sermons and listo's return spam were humorous.

it went WAY past that is the last couple days.

this arrogant prick has NOTHING to offer, and has offended and annoyed pretty much everyone here.
after the hitler comment, its a damn travesty that he's allowed on the board.

one more time.
PLEASE get rid of this psychotic troll taco.

jake

[amesj523]

you know glorymule once said to me that jesus said not to get drunk on wine...

i thought about it - and maybe - since jesus's blood is often symbolized as wine, maybe jesus was referring to such behavior seen.