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BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 06:24 PM
I am fairly certain that our offense issues have little to do with players dropping passes. Or elite QBs playing bad, or rookie QBs playing like rookies. It has to do with Kubiak stubbornly playing his run-first, slow-paced, grind-it-out offense that he thinks is the KEY to winning a SB.

He is dead wrong.

It got us the #1 seed you say? No. Elway drafting defensive players the first round for years, and getting Wade in here, is why we are the #1 seed. Make no mistake.. if our defense wasn't what it was, we'd be LUCKY to be 8-8 this season.

Dropped passes are a product of a slow running, huddle, take-forever to get the next play called and run type of offense. The very few times we went up-tempo on this offense, what happened? Against the Bengals for example, last game. We dominated on offense. On pass AND run. Even today, the one drive we actually started up-tempo.. we got 3 first downs in three plays. Then change of quarter.. then back to the slooooooow offense Kubiak likes to run... and stifled.. again.

If Kubiak is going to put Manning in, he needs to allow him to play the fast-paced, up tempo offense he has played his entire career. In Mile High in particular, it's very effective.. it wears out defenses in a hurry. This ridiculous "ok.. let's huddle.. talk about this next play for 30 seconds.. we are controlling the game after all!.. la-la-laaah.." offense SUCKS!! It's terrible. The only people that like it are Kubiak and Luigi. I was yelling during the game for Elway to call down to Kubiak and say "Dude.. shut up.. let Manning play his game."

If we really want a shot at winning the SB, Kubiak HAS to allow our offense to go at Manning's pace. Not Kubiak's pace. The entire POINT of homefield advantage is like.. using it. In our case, fast paced offense, wear down defenses so they can't keep up if they wanted to.

I hope and pray that Elway has a talk with Kubiak this week.. and tells him, if you are going to play Manning... let him be the QB he can be. Up-tempo is the key to winning. Not some cruddy, slow, medicore bend and mostly break offense based on a horrible running game that relies on a terrible line and mediocre RBs.

R-Mac
01-17-2016, 06:34 PM
Run first? Grind it out? We opened the game with 11 passes and 6 runs...

The wind became an issue for the passing game and we needed the running game to keep the pass rushers away from an immobile Manning playing with a patchwork OL.

Manning's way led the Broncos to two one-and-done campaigns and a historic humiliation against a run-first, grind-it-out team in the SB...

Kubiak just coached this team to the #1 seed and now the AFC title game. The more people complain about him, the further he goes in this race. Looks like he knows what he's doing. Let him coach.

wolf754life
01-17-2016, 06:35 PM
Manning is going to get embarrassed by Belly and Brady one last time

MiamiChico
01-17-2016, 06:37 PM
Manning is going to get embarrassed by Belly and Brady one last time

Like the last two AFC championship games hes played against them right.

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 06:38 PM
Kubiak RODE OUR DEFENSE that Elway drafted, and Wade coached. Seriously? C'mon.. our defense is the only reason we are in this game, it has little or nothing to do with our offense!

And I am not talking about play selection. I am talking about game PACE. The entire point of homefield is to take advantage of it. Fast faced, wear out defense is how to do it. Not a slow paced, give the defense at altitude plenty of time to catch their breath type of offense. Which is what we did today.

orinjkrush
01-17-2016, 06:41 PM
This is starting to remind me of Tampa Bay and Brad Johnson.

Big D.

Little O.

Go with the goodness of Dear-i-ooos. (old time reference)

UberBroncoMan
01-17-2016, 06:42 PM
Really wish we'd just run the Manning offense.

24champ
01-17-2016, 06:44 PM
Two key stats. Time of possession and turnovers. We won possession time with something like 31 minutes with the ball and zero turnovers on offense. Considering all year we've been turning the ball over a lot, I'd say it was successful.

Players struggled with the wind, can't catch and at times the throw was wobbly. There's no reason to force things when you have a great defense.

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 06:44 PM
Yes... me too. Especially at Mile High, where our altitude favors a faced paced game on offense. You would see the frustration on Manning's face repeatedly. Not just the dropped passes, but the terrible pace, slow and horrible offense Kubiak was "directing."

MiamiChico
01-17-2016, 06:45 PM
Kubiak reads the Mane he was saving the "playbook" for this very next game watch......... we've waited all season now we will see. LOL I hope

R-Mac
01-17-2016, 06:46 PM
Kubiak RODE OUR DEFENSE that Elway drafted, and Wade coached. Seriously? C'mon.. our defense is the only reason we are in this game, it has little or nothing to do with our offense!

And I am not talking about play selection. I am talking about game PACE. The entire point of homefield is to take advantage of it. Fast faced, wear out defense is how to do it. Not a slow paced, give the defense at altitude plenty of time to catch their breath type of offense. Which is what we did today.

Our defense has been pretty stout since 2012. Against the Ravens: one and done, with terrible coaching by Fox.

2013: Peyton's Star Wars offense got crushed by the Seahawks D. Pete Carroll to his LBs: "just drop in coverage, they're not serious about the run".

2014: One and done again, against a Colts team that then got destroyed by the Pats run-first tactics.

Pace: how many attempts do you want from Peyton and his arm at age 39? How many throws until his arm is dead? He can't make explosive throws, we can't explore all the route tree with his arm. Some balls were already looking like dead ducks late in the game. I'm glad we played defense and ran the ball, because that's what won the game for us.

M-G
01-17-2016, 06:46 PM
Blew my mind that they didn't go up tempo more. I mean, c'mon man.

But they won.

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 06:51 PM
They did win, but predominantly because of our defense. We could make it so much easier on ourselves if we play an up tempo offense. Kubiak for whatever reason refuses to do so. Yet it would make our offense twice as productive. I can only guess that Kubiak is super stubborn, and wants to prove his "run first" mentality works.

To Luigi: Your hero, Kubiak, had his team run for a whopping 103 yards at home. You said we won because we rushed over 30 times? We won despite the fact we rushed 30 times. You and Kubiak.. peas in an antiquated NFL pod.

wolf754life
01-17-2016, 06:52 PM
Mannings last ride cost us Brock

What for? The right to get destroyed at home against the pats?

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 06:54 PM
Mannings last ride cost us Brock

What for? The right to get destroyed at home against the pats?

You think Brock would have worked better?

:giggle:

The issue is not Brock or Manning, when will some of you get it through your heads?

4Horsemen
01-17-2016, 06:56 PM
Really wish we'd just run the Manning offense.

agreed 1000 times. or at least mix it up, personal is there.

also what's up with the TO being wasted.

MiamiChico
01-17-2016, 06:57 PM
You think Brock would have worked better?

:giggle:

The issue is not Brock or Manning, when will some of you get it through your heads?

You wont turn him, its all Mannings fault even if he plays well next week and we win they find something to B**** about

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 07:00 PM
You wont turn him, its all Mannings fault even if he plays well next week and we win they find something to B**** about

You are right.. I need to just either ignore or /ignore these idiots.. who are so fixated on how much Manning "sucks," they ignore the actual issues or hurdles of the team, which honestly have little to do with either QB.

wolf754life
01-17-2016, 07:02 PM
Ignore me, like you Ignore Mannings play

Delusional Blissful Ignorance

Church of Manning

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 07:05 PM
Ignore me, like you Ignore Mannings play

Delusional Blissful Ignorance

Church of Manning

You would hate on him no matter how he performed. If he had a 340 yard, 4 TD game, I guarantee you'd have negative comments about him. You simply hate the guy. So your comments are 100% worthless.

TonyR
01-17-2016, 07:09 PM
Mannings last ride cost us Brock

How? Why? You think he'll want to go play for a s*** team instead of stay in Denver next year because his feeling got hurt? In other words, you think he's as stupid and petty as you?

barryr
01-17-2016, 07:09 PM
Manning's offense does not really jive with Kubiak's, but it is what it is right now. This is why I think this is Manning's last year, but with a weak OL, chances are better with Manning than aa young Osweiler at this point. At least that is what the coaching staff believes and they have gone 13-4, so they seem to know a little bit.

Requiem
01-17-2016, 07:12 PM
The type of approach they had this week likely had to do with the in game elements. It isn't an approach that will bode well for them next week. They could have been a bit more aggressive, especially on the first couple of drives where we started near their 30 yard line. Have to take a shot or two.

OABB
01-17-2016, 07:16 PM
He should have called some deep passes out of the bootleg.



Lolololol

DENVERDUI55
01-17-2016, 07:17 PM
I just don't get why they use Hillman on short yard runs. Why no Vernon Davis either.

TonyR
01-17-2016, 07:21 PM
I just don't get why they use Hillman on short yard runs. Why no Vernon Davis either.

Agree on both counts. What's annoying is that Pittsburgh's 3rd and 4th string RB's are better than Hillman. He's just too little and goes down too easy.

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 07:22 PM
He should have called some deep passes out of the bootleg.



Lolololol

Again Einstein.. not play calls.. but playing pace.

The one drive (actually one three plays), that Kubiak allowed a fact paced (no huddle) offense.. what happened? Well.. sort of like it happened against the Bengals, we went 3 plays.. 3 first downs. The ONLY three plays that were no huddle, where 10+ yards each.

It's obvious that Kubiak favors a slower paced, game control, clock-control offense. It's also clear that doesn't work in this days NFL.. and more importantly, on a team with a fairly awful OL, and mediocre RBs. And since we have a QB that has mastered the no-huddle offense over 17 years, would it not make sense to run that?

The only thing standing in the way is Kubiak's stubbornness.

DBroncos4life
01-17-2016, 07:24 PM
Agree on both counts. What's annoying is that Pittsburgh's 3rd and 4th string RB's are better than Hillman. He's just too little and goes down too easy.

His runs runs of 5 and 7 got us into scoring position.

TonyR
01-17-2016, 07:26 PM
His runs runs of 5 and 7 got us into scoring position.

Yeah, I shouldn't be so hard on him. Our run blocking certainly doesn't do him any favors.

Requiem
01-17-2016, 07:26 PM
Hopefully Denver does themselves a favor and drafts a running back. . . but they have sucked with Ball and Hillman, so little hope there tho.

OleNumber72
01-17-2016, 07:27 PM
You wont turn him, its all Mannings fault even if he plays well next week and we win they find something to B**** about

Manning playing well

http://i.imgur.com/8FxEa.gif

Jason in LA
01-17-2016, 07:29 PM
I don't think that Kubiak has the talent on offense to open it up. Limitations at QB and O line make it difficult. The only thing that I don't understand is why Hillman gets more carries than Anderson. At this point, Anderson should be the focal point of the offense.

BroncoInferno
01-17-2016, 07:31 PM
Yeah, I shouldn't be so hard on him. Our run blocking certainly doesn't do him any favors.

Hillman was clearly outperforming him the first half of the season, probably because CJ had a bum ankle/foot. I agree that a healthy CJ is the best option, but I think the reason that Hillman keeps starting is because it seems every time CJ starts cooking, he gets banged up or fumbles.

DivineLegion
01-17-2016, 07:31 PM
Actually, I think what you're b****ing about is the lack of production from the pistol, and single back sets. When we lined up with Manning under center the running game started working, and that's when the offense put together long drives. What you should be saying is, preserve the balance, make Manning line up under center, and run the damn ball.

Jason in LA
01-17-2016, 07:32 PM
Dropped passes are a product of a slow running, huddle, take-forever to get the next play called and run type of offense.

I'm not sure where you got that theory from. I don't think that the tempo affects catching the ball. I'd say it's more of a lack of concentration, or having players who are not highly skillful in that department.

razorwire77
01-17-2016, 07:33 PM
Really wish we'd just run the Manning offense.

Manning can't run the Manning offense anymore.

OABB
01-17-2016, 07:37 PM
Manning playing well

http://i.imgur.com/8FxEa.gif

Lol

retro
01-17-2016, 07:39 PM
When you have the Mile High advantage all those running plays for little yardage finally pay off. It wears down a defense so when the game hits the last quarter they are sucking air and giving up big runs.

In the end Broncos ran it down there throats and put the game away. It's exactly how they need to win with an aging QB that isn't that great anymore.

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 07:41 PM
Yeah, let's play an up tempo game. Hurry up offense all the way. Let's hire Chip Kelly.

No way that will play against our strengths and tire out our historically great defense.

barryr
01-17-2016, 07:43 PM
When you have the Mile High advantage all those running plays for little yardage finally pay off. It wears down a defense so when the game hits the last quarter they are sucking air and giving up big runs.

In the end Broncos ran it down there throats and put the game away. It's exactly how they need to win with an aging QB that isn't that great anymore.

And with an OL that has had troubles pass blocking, especially picking up blitzes. Makes it frustrating to watch for sure, but limits turnovers by the offense.

cmc0605
01-17-2016, 08:01 PM
The OP is exactly right.

The offense picks up when we hurry the pace. It establishes rhythm. There is no rhythm in getting a first down, huddling, running off tackle for -1 yards, huddling, running left tackle for-3 yards, huddling, and then throwing on third and long.

We hurried up a bit toward the end, like that drive where we got three or so first downs but then Manning got sacked as CJ I think was bulldozed. Up tempo gets us moving a bit and few firdt downs builds confidence. Kubiak still does not get it. We finally get a 50 yard run sometimes to hide just how bad it is.

DarkHorse30
01-17-2016, 08:07 PM
Agree on both counts. What's annoying is that Pittsburgh's 3rd and 4th string RB's are better than Hillman. He's just too little and goes down too easy.

Steelers oline is ranked top 10 in both run and pass so you can guess that their rbs have an easier time running no matter where they are on the depth chart.

Hillman AND Vernon need to run forward, rather than sideways. The thing they don't get is that they are not fast enough to run around LBs in this league. Nobody is - cut and go one time that's it.... Like Hillman did several times on the TD drive. It appears that he seems to be getting it. Bravo:)

BroncoFanDoug
01-17-2016, 08:08 PM
Wow I thought we won. Guess not!

Armchair Bronco
01-17-2016, 08:09 PM
Kubiak rarely tries any gutsy plays in big games.

Half the time or more on 4th down, he fakes it.

But he did make it to the AFC championship game. I wonder if this approach will work against NE.

bpc
01-17-2016, 08:11 PM
Denver needs Manning to be Jeff Hostetler and ride the running game, especially CJ Anderson.

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 08:13 PM
The OP is exactly right.

The offense picks up when we hurry the pace. It establishes rhythm. There is no rhythm in getting a first down, huddling, running off tackle for -1 yards, huddling, running left tackle for-3 yards, huddling, and then throwing on third and long.

We hurried up a bit toward the end, like that drive where we got three or so first downs but then Manning got sacked as CJ I think was bulldozed. Up tempo gets us moving a bit and few firdt downs builds confidence. Kubiak still does not get it. We finally get a 50 yard run sometimes to hide just how bad it is.

Yup.. thank yew for getting it. =)

I think people don't realize how important it is to build a rhythm to your game. Tires out defenses, gets receivers and QB in a rhythm.. it's important. Heck, it's how Manning was so successful for 17 years. Now, Kubiak insists on huddles.. slow play.. running.. it gives the defense plenty of time to catch their breath. I don't get it.

broncosteven
01-17-2016, 08:19 PM
The run game won us another close game. Coupled with a great D who can force turnovers in big spots and it is everything you want in a championship team.

It stuns me we were able to run the ball down their throat with the game on the line in that last drive. Plus there was a long run called back during that drive.

Manning had only 3 pass attempts in the last drive and they were early in it. They then ground clock on the ground. The OL did a great job playing to it's strengths, run blocking. Hillman still goes down to easily but he and CJ did a great job not only protecting the ball but getting chunks when they had been stuffed most of the day.

Broncos played a clean game for possibly the 2nd time all year. It was definetly Manning's 1st clean start and he did get lucky in the last drive thanks to heads up play by Sanders.

Now the team needs to clean up the drops and execute and they can easily beat the pats but they are not going to do it chucking the ball downfield. Going to need to grind out another gritty win behind better tackling by the D.

yerner
01-17-2016, 08:23 PM
I defend Hillman, but I have no idea why he's getting split carries with Cj at this point.

On another note, how good is Bennie Fowler? Dude looks like he might be the real deal.

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 08:25 PM
Fowler has impressed me all year, I am really liking the guy!

Rohirrim
01-17-2016, 08:26 PM
I honestly think Manning called much of this game tonight so I really wonder if the criticism on Kubiak applies? Somehow, it keeps working and the Broncos keep winning. Not fun to watch, though.

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 08:36 PM
I honestly think Manning called much of this game tonight so I really wonder if the criticism on Kubiak applies? Somehow, it keeps working and the Broncos keep winning. Not fun to watch, though.


I'm with you. The 43-8 offense was a pleasure to behold.

bronc_fan23
01-17-2016, 08:36 PM
I honestly think Manning called much of this game tonight so I really wonder if the criticism on Kubiak applies? Somehow, it keeps working and the Broncos keep winning. Not fun to watch, though.

I also thought the same thing. I saw him audibling a lot into things that didn't work, but who knows when it was a dummy call or not. Peyton was overthinking things, me thinks. Of course, it comes down to execution on the fly, as well.

AZBroncomaniac
01-17-2016, 08:39 PM
You're all spoiled by hundreds of yards through the air with multiple td's every game. This was a PLAYOFF GAME. Run and defense. What's wrong with our D running the show? I welcome this whole heartedly as they will be our only chance this year. Defense wins championships.... no?

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 08:39 PM
I honestly think Manning called much of this game tonight so I really wonder if the criticism on Kubiak applies? Somehow, it keeps working and the Broncos keep winning. Not fun to watch, though.

Audibles, perhaps sure. But he imo had nothing to do with the pacing. He did not get to call the no-huddle. The fast-tempo offense happened only in like.. 3 plays. The actual pace of the game imo was dictated by Kubiak, not Manning.

barryr
01-17-2016, 08:41 PM
You're all spoiled by hundreds of yards through the air with multiple td's every game. This was a PLAYOFF GAME. Run and defense. What's wrong with our D running the show? I welcome this whole heartedly as they will be our only chance this year. Defense wins championships.... no?

Some expect the Broncos to have 500 yards of offense and score 40+ points and the defense to be dominant. Those are rare teams.

BroncoFox
01-17-2016, 08:43 PM
You're all spoiled by hundreds of yards through the air with multiple td's every game. This was a PLAYOFF GAME. Run and defense. What's wrong with our D running the show? I welcome this whole heartedly as they will be our only chance this year. Defense wins championships.... no?

What is wrong with it? Seriously? One missed play and one TD later we are losing. We had the lowest winning score this week. Again.. it was up to our defense to win the game. 20 or 23 points is not going to win it, unless our defense plays lights-out. Which I admit IS possible.. they are incredible this year.

But why force our D to make it happen? We were up-tempo in the Bengals game since Manning came in.. and how many points did we score? More than this entire game.. in a HALF?

So.. yea.. I think we need a faster paced offensive game, at least at home. SB.. maybe not, we'll see. But let's take advantage of Mile High. Our altitude. The fast pace will wear the Cheats out.

Powderaddict
01-17-2016, 08:45 PM
I really wish Kubiak would stop calling so many WR drops. That is pretty annoying.

The play calling was fine. The offense wore down the defense then dominated at the end of the game. If the WRs could hold on to a descently thrown pass, the game would not have been so close.

Manning slinging the ball around 50 times a game is a surefire way to quick 3 and outs, INTs, and a tired defense. That offense does not work in the playoffs.

Right now he needs to be careful with the ball, and manage the game. Let the defense carry the team. It may work next week, it may not. But having him throw a ton will only lead to disaster.

Rohirrim
01-17-2016, 08:46 PM
Audibles, perhaps sure. But he imo had nothing to do with the pacing. He did not get to call the no-huddle. The fast-tempo offense happened only in like.. 3 plays. The actual pace of the game imo was dictated by Kubiak, not Manning.

Might have been dictated by a lot of things. Maybe this Oline needs a lot more instructions per play and they want to make sure that everybody knows what they're supposed to do on every play? I agree it was tedious to watch. But this team held it together until finally, they got a break and then they moved on it and won. They certainly played it close. Steelers are a dangerous team.

broncosteven
01-17-2016, 08:49 PM
You're all spoiled by hundreds of yards through the air with multiple td's every game. This was a PLAYOFF GAME. Run and defense. What's wrong with our D running the show? I welcome this whole heartedly as they will be our only chance this year. Defense wins championships.... no?

Yep!

Last year people bitched because Manning kept trying to throw it deep every down even when he had the whole field open in front of him on 3rd and 10.

This year on a day where the wind impacted field position on punts early he played it safe and did things I wanted him to do last year which he seemingly just would not do no matter what the cost.

Manning has bought into Kubes O and it is paying off late in games.

broncosteven
01-17-2016, 08:53 PM
I defend Hillman, but I have no idea why he's getting split carries with Cj at this point.

On another note, how good is Bennie Fowler? Dude looks like he might be the real deal.

I think they love his speed. He must tear it up in practice with limited contact.

CJ would have had a 100 yard game if his long run was not called back. Maybe they are trying to keep him fresh for the end of games and are afraid of him tweaking an ankle? CJ has been hurt all year but when healthy he is a difference maker.

It is sad that Thompson blew it this year, dude cannot pass block and looks fat and slow.

The other nice thing both of our backs did was pass pro today. They had multiple blitz pickups today giving Manning time to get the ball downfield where it could be dropped.

It amazes me that our D got to Ben 3 times, 2 of which in timely spots and Pitt only got to Manning once.

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 08:54 PM
I really wish Kubiak would stop calling so many WR drops. That is pretty annoying.

The play calling was fine. The offense wore down the defense then dominated at the end of the game. If the WRs could hold on to a descently thrown pass, the game would not have been so close.

Manning slinging the ball around 50 times a game is a surefire way to quick 3 and outs, INTs, and a tired defense. That offense does not work in the playoffs.

Right now he needs to be careful with the ball, and manage the game. Let the defense carry the team. It may work next week, it may not. But having him throw a ton will only lead to disaster.


Thank you. I'm glad someone gets it.

If a HEALTHY Manning playing this style of football goes one and done against the Ravens and Colts, why should we suddenly revert back to it with an older last legs Manning?

All year we have heard that we can't win this way... and yet now we're about to host the AFCG

Rohirrim
01-17-2016, 09:01 PM
I think they love his speed. He must tear it up in practice with limited contact.

CJ would have had a 100 yard game if his long run was not called back. Maybe they are trying to keep him fresh for the end of games and are afraid of him tweaking an ankle? CJ has been hurt all year but when healthy he is a difference maker.

It is sad that Thompson blew it this year, dude cannot pass block and looks fat and slow.

The other nice thing both of our backs did was pass pro today. They had multiple blitz pickups today giving Manning time to get the ball downfield where it could be dropped.

It amazes me that our D got to Ben 3 times, 2 of which in timely spots and Pitt only got to Manning once.

We still have our altitude. Bringing in a fresh CJ late in the game is not something a tired defense wants to see.

yerner
01-17-2016, 09:15 PM
I think they love his speed. He must tear it up in practice with limited contact.

CJ would have had a 100 yard game if his long run was not called back. Maybe they are trying to keep him fresh for the end of games and are afraid of him tweaking an ankle? CJ has been hurt all year but when healthy he is a difference maker.

It is sad that Thompson blew it this year, dude cannot pass block and looks fat and slow.

The other nice thing both of our backs did was pass pro today. They had multiple blitz pickups today giving Manning time to get the ball downfield where it could be dropped.

It amazes me that our D got to Ben 3 times, 2 of which in timely spots and Pitt only got to Manning once.

The only explanation is CJ is just not healthy enough to be the workhorse. It's too bad though, I feel like he could run them to the Super Bowl if he was the main guy with Hillman getting shots at bringing his speed in the right situations.

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 09:31 PM
The only explanation is CJ is just not healthy enough to be the workhorse. It's too bad though, I feel like he could run them to the Super Bowl if he was the main guy with Hillman getting shots at bringing his speed in the right situations.

He has a pretty serious rib injury. Would not be surprised to find out that they're broken after the season.

Taco John
01-17-2016, 09:38 PM
Run first? Grind it out? We opened the game with 11 passes and 6 runs...

The wind became an issue for the passing game and we needed the running game to keep the pass rushers away from an immobile Manning playing with a patchwork OL.

Manning's way led the Broncos to two one-and-done campaigns and a historic humiliation against a run-first, grind-it-out team in the SB...

Kubiak just coached this team to the #1 seed and now the AFC title game. The more people complain about him, the further he goes in this race. Looks like he knows what he's doing. Let him coach.

Kubiak is embarassing a lot of Broncos fans. His style of team is very "next up" and attitude driven. They don't do a lot of cute things - they just line up and try to beat their man. That frustrates a lot of people, because they want to see cuteness and creativity, and instead what they see are guys with flaws fighting for every inch. For my taste, I'm down with it. It's frustrating, yeah... especially when you see a guy like Schoefield getting beat all year long. But what we're finding is that it sharpens the teams' edge for the fourth quarter. These guys have played like men possessed in the fourth quarter all season long. That's the kind of team Kubiak has built.

Two more games...

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 09:59 PM
Kubiak is embarassing a lot of Broncos fans. His style of team is very "next up" and attitude driven. They don't do a lot of cute things - they just line up and try to beat their man. That frustrates a lot of people, because they want to see cuteness and creativity, and instead what they see are guys with flaws fighting for every inch. For my taste, I'm down with it. It's frustrating, yeah... especially when you see a guy like Schoefield getting beat all year long. But what we're finding is that it sharpens the teams' edge for the fourth quarter. These guys have played like men possessed in the fourth quarter all season long. That's the kind of team Kubiak has built.

Two more games...


Reminds of this interview of Joel Dreesen after we hired Kubes:


I felt better, Dreessen told The Sports Show on Friday of his game preparation under Kubiak. I wasnt practicing as long. I wasnt in meetings as long. Saturday nights, when coach Gary Kubiak would speak, everybody in that room would get chills on their arms. Wed all go to team snack just all fired up ready to run through a brick wall for the guy. Theres an element of ho-hum to John Fox, where Saturday nights you walk out of there like, All right, its another ball-game. You want to bleed for a guy like Gary Kubiak. Not that I didnt want to bleed for John Fox, but theres a different way they go about speaking to the team. I love Gary Kubiak. Id take a bullet for that man. I think hes a phenomenal football coach. I do.


http://sportsshow.denverpost.com/2015/01/16/gary-kubiak-is-interviewing-for-the-broncos-head-coach-position/

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 10:17 PM
Our offensive issues in order of severity:

1) Our offensive line sucks balls.
2) Kubiak's inability to run an offense that doesn't have a dominant running game.
3) Kubiak's atrocious redzone play-calling.
4) Poor execution in general (this includes drops).
5) Being stuck with one QB who is physically done and another who is green and holds the ball too long behind our putrid OL.
6) Kubiak's insistence that Ronnie Hillman is a well-rounded back who can be used like Terrell Davis or Arian Foster.
7) CJ's inability to stay healthy which has kept him from taking the #1 job decisively.

That's a lot of issues related to Kubiak you will notice...

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 10:19 PM
Kubiak is embarassing a lot of Broncos fans. His style of team is very "next up" and attitude driven. They don't do a lot of cute things - they just line up and try to beat their man. That frustrates a lot of people, because they want to see cuteness and creativity, and instead what they see are guys with flaws fighting for every inch. For my taste, I'm down with it. It's frustrating, yeah... especially when you see a guy like Schoefield getting beat all year long. But what we're finding is that it sharpens the teams' edge for the fourth quarter. These guys have played like men possessed in the fourth quarter all season long. That's the kind of team Kubiak has built.

Two more games...

Kubiak is only embarrassing himself with the shoddy offense he has marched out onto the field all season. The Broncos are where they are in spite of Kubiak not because of him. Wade Phillips deserves all the praise you are pouring on Kubiak frankly...

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 10:29 PM
Oh, yawn.


Kubiak could win the Super Bowl his first year here and still get no credit.

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 10:32 PM
Oh, yawn.


Kubiak could win the Super Bowl his first year here and still get no credit.

He's an offensive coach and his offense blows. Why should we give him credit for Wade Phillips' defense when he has very little to do with it?

Taco John
01-17-2016, 10:41 PM
Kubiak is only embarrassing himself with the shoddy offense he has marched out onto the field all season. The Broncos are where they are in spite of Kubiak not because of him. Wade Phillips deserves all the praise you are pouring on Kubiak frankly...

Yes, and Elway made a huge mistake letting Tebow get away, we know... Thanks for the great input.

pricejj
01-17-2016, 10:46 PM
I really wish Kubiak would stop calling so many WR drops. That is pretty annoying.


whiskey tango foxtrot... on 2... break

Natedogg
01-17-2016, 10:48 PM
Yes, and Elway made a huge mistake letting Tebow get away, we know... Thanks for the great input.

lololol.

The Horse
01-17-2016, 10:53 PM
Reminds of this interview of Joel Dreesen after we hired Kubes:


I felt better, Dreessen told The Sports Show on Friday of his game preparation under Kubiak. I wasnt practicing as long. I wasnt in meetings as long. Saturday nights, when coach Gary Kubiak would speak, everybody in that room would get chills on their arms. Wed all go to team snack just all fired up ready to run through a brick wall for the guy. I love Gary Kubiak. Id take a bullet for that man. I think hes a phenomenal football coach. I do.


http://sportsshow.denverpost.com/2015/01/16/gary-kubiak-is-interviewing-for-the-broncos-head-coach-position/

Yet game after game we come out and play uninspired football. I just don't get it. For three quarters you could say we played soft and I could not argue with that. How about instead of taking a bullet for the man, play 60 freaking minutes of football.

pricejj
01-17-2016, 11:07 PM
Reminds of this interview of Joel Dreesen after we hired Kubes:


I felt better, Dreessen told The Sports Show on Friday of his game preparation under Kubiak. I wasnt practicing as long. I wasnt in meetings as long. Saturday nights, when coach Gary Kubiak would speak, everybody in that room would get chills on their arms. Wed all go to team snack just all fired up ready to run through a brick wall for the guy. Theres an element of ho-hum to John Fox, where Saturday nights you walk out of there like, All right, its another ball-game. You want to bleed for a guy like Gary Kubiak. Not that I didnt want to bleed for John Fox, but theres a different way they go about speaking to the team. I love Gary Kubiak. Id take a bullet for that man. I think hes a phenomenal football coach. I do.


http://sportsshow.denverpost.com/2015/01/16/gary-kubiak-is-interviewing-for-the-broncos-head-coach-position/

Brian Griese had a very similar on the FAN this week. Had emotion in his voice and was adamant saying "HIS players will run through a brick wall for him."

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 11:10 PM
Yes, and Elway made a huge mistake letting Tebow get away, we know... Thanks for the great input.

You are praising an offensive coach who has an autonomous DC who has carried his ten ton ass all season, and now you want to bring Tebow into it because your logic is trash and you have nothing to say that refutes what I'm saying? You're always good for a laugh Taco...

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 11:13 PM
Yet game after game we come out and play uninspired football. I just don't get it. For three quarters you could say we played soft and I could not argue with that. How about instead of taking a bullet for the man, play 60 freaking minutes of football.

It's total rubbish. You see that right? They win over and over again, and the Kubiak apologists act like he's the reason in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. It's ridiculous. Like most of the nonsense people post around here frankly.

Taco John
01-17-2016, 11:20 PM
You are praising an offensive coach who has an autonomous DC who has carried his ten ton ass all season, and now you want to bring Tebow into it because your logic is trash and you have nothing to say that refutes what I'm saying? You're always good for a laugh Taco...

I'm not praising an "offensive" coach. I'm praising the HEAD coach who has installed a new attitude in this team that was sorely missing. These guys have guts in the fourth quarter and fight like hell despite adversity. Wade Phillips has been a great addition to this team, and another example of why Kubiak was the right guy. He brought in a great DC and has given him full autonomy to install what may be the best defense Denver has ever had.

Now we're in the AFC Championship game and salty guys like you are completely humiliated by all the winning this team is doing in spite of your doom and gloom. You've told us all season long how bad the Broncos are, what terrible coaches we have, how stupid we all are for believing in them. And here we are, in the AFC Championship game winning like we've won all seaon: gritty, gutsy, and with a ton of fourth quarter balls. And the best thing that you have to say about the AFC West Champion Denver Broncos as the are entering the AFC Championship game against the Super Bowl Champions is that the coaching sucks.

So great, why don't you dazzle us with your logic this week about how you are right and we all are wrong. Why should this week be any differnt than any other?

pricejj
01-17-2016, 11:23 PM
Manning completed 56% of passes today with 7 drops. Without the drops it's a blowout.

Brohemoth
01-17-2016, 11:23 PM
Ag where have you been? It's harder to keep the homers at bay when you're not around.

24champ
01-17-2016, 11:24 PM
You are praising an offensive coach who has an autonomous DC who has carried his ten ton ass all season, and now you want to bring Tebow into it because your logic is trash and you have nothing to say that refutes what I'm saying? You're always good for a laugh Taco...

Did you not watch last years Colts playoff game? This team has a totally different attitude this year.

Brohemoth
01-17-2016, 11:25 PM
Manning completed 56% of passes today with 7 drops. Without the drops it's a blowout.

Where was this logic against the Chargers? ??? My goodness.

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 11:27 PM
Did you not watch last years Colts playoff game? This team has a totally different attitude this year.

If you say so. I'm pretty sure they would've beat the Colts with Wade Phillips as the DC instead of Jack Del Rio who had one foot out the door.

24champ
01-17-2016, 11:28 PM
Where was this logic against the Chargers? ??? My goodness.

Zero turnovers.

Brohemoth
01-17-2016, 11:28 PM
Zero turnovers.

Only because the Steelers DB couldn't catch! Come on dude!

pricejj
01-17-2016, 11:30 PM
Where was this logic against the Chargers? ??? My goodness.

It's a very simple concept. Once you play the Manning card, you don't put it back in the deck. Without Manning's spark against the Chargers, the Broncos would not be playing at home in the AFCCG.

24champ
01-17-2016, 11:31 PM
If you say so. I'm pretty sure they would've beat the Colts with Wade Phillips as the DC instead of Jack Del Rio who had one foot out the door.

The whole staff had one foot out the door. Wade was brought on by Kubiak, and Wade has said he wouldn't have come back if not for Kubiak. It's a different attitude and mindset this year. That starts from the top down.

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 11:31 PM
I'm not praising an "offensive" coach. I'm praising the HEAD coach who has installed a new attitude in this team that was sorely missing. These guys have guts in the fourth quarter and fight like hell despite adversity. Wade Phillips has been a great addition to this team, and another example of why Kubiak was the right guy. He brought in a great DC and has given him full autonomy to install what may be the best defense Denver has ever had.

Now we're in the AFC Championship game and salty guys like you are completely humiliated by all the winning this team is doing in spite of your doom and gloom. You've told us all season long how bad the Broncos are, what terrible coaches we have, how stupid we all are for believing in them. And here we are, in the AFC Championship game winning like we've won all seaon: gritty, gutsy, and with a ton of fourth quarter balls. And the best thing that you have to say about the AFC West Champion Denver Broncos as the are entering the AFC Championship game against the Super Bowl Champions is that the coaching sucks.

So great, why don't you dazzle us with your logic this week about how you are right and we all are wrong. Why should this week be any differnt than any other?

I'm not humiliated. I just realize we are winning in spite of Kubiak's shoddy job with his side of the ball. The best parts of the team are the parts he has very little to do with. That you don't get this is baffling to me.

Brohemoth
01-17-2016, 11:31 PM
It's a very simple concept. Once you play the Manning card, you don't put it back in the deck. Without Manning's spark against the Chargers, the Broncos would not be playing at home in the AFCCG.

The last time Osweiler was on the field, Denver was up 7-6.

What is happening? Broncos fans used to be the brightest. Y'all are zombified or something.

24champ
01-17-2016, 11:33 PM
Only because the Steelers DB couldn't catch! Come on dude!

Neither could our WRs, so it's moot.

Very windy day and tough conditions to throw the ball.

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 11:34 PM
The whole staff had one foot out the door. Wade was brought on by Kubiak, and Wade has said he wouldn't have come back if not for Kubiak. It's a different attitude and mindset this year. That starts from the top down.

The offense's attitude is nothing special. Frankly they are soft as ****. Again, you are giving credit to Kubiak for Wade's incredible job and it's a joke honestly. Yeah he brought Wade in. He gets credit for that. But he has really not shown much as a head coach beyond making that one awesome hire.

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 11:35 PM
The last time Osweiler was on the field, Denver was up 7-6.

What is happening? Broncos fans used to be the brightest. Y'all are zombified or something.

That really isn't true. Bronco fans have always been a bunch of tards. They are literally immune to basic logic.

bronc_fan23
01-17-2016, 11:38 PM
That really isn't true. Bronco fans have always been a bunch of tards. They are literally immune to basic logic.

Thank god we have you here to sort that out for us.

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 11:38 PM
Yet game after game we come out and play uninspired football. I just don't get it. For three quarters you could say we played soft and I could not argue with that. How about instead of taking a bullet for the man, play 60 freaking minutes of football.

I give you two options:

A) Steamroll teams all year and then in tight games and playoff games crap the bed

B) Play hard to watch football, but come away with gutsy wins in big games


We can't have it all, but between those two choices, option B is a breath of fresh air from option A that we saw over the last three years.

Granted, my tune changes if the Pats come in and steam roll us and we look like the Seahawks against the Panthers.

But nothing we have seen this season indicates that would happen. We have been in *every* game except the "start Peyton to get the record even though he's injured," Chiefs game. If we lose to the Pats, I fully expect us to go down kicking and screaming. And that is on coaching.

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 11:43 PM
The offense's attitude is nothing special. Frankly they are soft as ****. Again, you are giving credit to Kubiak for Wade's incredible job and it's a joke honestly. Yeah he brought Wade in. He gets credit for that. But he has really not shown much as a head coach beyond making that one awesome hire.


So what's your solution to the offense's woes this year? Given the roster we have (which includes the garbage Oline and dropped passes that you have already noted), what HC/OC could make it work better than what Kubiak has done?

I'm not asking to defend Kubiak. I genuinely want to know.

Brohemoth
01-17-2016, 11:45 PM
That really isn't true. Bronco fans have always been a bunch of tards. They are literally immune to basic logic.

The smart settlers probably went on to the ocean and good weather. Those who were too weak or unimaginative stayed behind and, boom, Denver is born.

24champ
01-17-2016, 11:46 PM
The offense's attitude is nothing special. Frankly they are soft as ****. Again, you are giving credit to Kubiak for Wade's incredible job and it's a joke honestly. Yeah he brought Wade in. He gets credit for that. But he has really not shown much as a head coach beyond making that one awesome hire.

That last drive against a tough steelers defense isn't what I'd describe as soft. They wore them down pretty good and the way they punched it in to take the lead was very gritty and tough. I disagree with soft being attached to this offense. There's been a number of key drives by this offense in the 4th quarter this year and pulled out a win.

A soft offense turtles and withers away, like it used to under Gase/Fox. It's a different mindset and attitude this year, as I keep repeating.

Fitzy47
01-17-2016, 11:54 PM
That last drive against a tough steelers defense isn't what I'd describe as soft. They wore them down pretty good and the way they punched it in to take the lead was very gritty and tough. I disagree with soft being attached to this offense. There's been a number of key drives by this offense in the 4th quarter this year and pulled out a win.

A soft offense turtles and withers away, like it used to under Gase/Fox. It's a different mindset and attitude this year, as I keep repeating.

You can't win. When we blew out teams with Manning/Gase our offense was soft as Charmin.

When we grind and wear down defenses with long drives in the 4th quarter, we are still soft as Charmin.

A perfect dichotomy, and yet the same description is used for both.

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 11:55 PM
So what's your solution to the offense's woes this year? Given the roster we have (which includes the garbage Oline and dropped passes that you have already noted), what HC/OC could make it work better than what Kubiak has done?

I'm not asking to defend Kubiak. I genuinely want to know.

Some of it is beyond his control. But a lot of it is on him. His insistence on keeping Schofield on the field and not even giving him help is downright atrocious. His insistence on using Hillman as a power back in the redzone is laughable. His play-calling in the redzone is putrid. His inability to adapt in general has been painful to watch. He seems to have no idea how to get the offense going when the running game struggles. He is so utterly dependent on the ZBS to open up the passing game via play action, it's just sad. Maybe you guys are right about his ability to motivate. Maybe he would make a good Fox-type HC who leaves the X's and O's to his coordinators. All I know is that as an offensive mind he appears to be a one trick pony. I've never seen an offensive coach fail to adapt so completely. We are still running the same garbage that hasn't worked all season. It's bizarre frankly. Not to mention I have been thoroughly unimpressed by the way he simply does not seem to hold players accountable for playing poorly and failing to execute.

SVine
01-18-2016, 12:00 AM
Only because the Steelers DB couldn't catch! Come on dude!

Or the ball take a different bounce on the fumbled snap near end of 1st half.

ZONA
01-18-2016, 12:04 AM
Mannings last ride cost us Brock

What for? The right to get destroyed at home against the pats?



http://wellingpropertyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Broken-Record-psd53198.png

Fitzy47
01-18-2016, 12:09 AM
Some of it is beyond his control. But a lot of it is on him. His insistence on keeping Schofield on the field and not even giving him help is downright atrocious. His insistence on using Hillman as a power back in the redzone is laughable. His play-calling in the redzone is putrid. His inability to adapt in general has been painful to watch. He seems to have no idea how to get the offense going when the running game struggles. He is so utterly dependent on the ZBS to open up the passing game via play action, it's just sad. Maybe you guys are right about his ability to motivate. Maybe he would make a good Fox-type HC who leaves the X's and O's to his coordinators. All I know is that as an offensive mind he appears to be a one trick pony. I've never seen an offensive coach fail to adapt so completely. We are still running the same garbage that hasn't worked all season. It's bizarre frankly. Not mention I have been thoroughly unimpressed by the way he simply does not seem to hold players accountable for playing poorly and failing to execute.

Ok, yes the Schofield decision has been mind boggling and the only plausible speculative explanations I have heard are:

1. They like him in the running game more than Polumbus
2. He knows the line calls better than Polumbus and so can adjust easier at the LOS
3. Polumbus really is that bad

These are all speculative, and other than that nobody knows.

As for getting help, Mark Schlereth came on the fan and basically said:

1. You can't help a guy on every single play
2. On the plays we did help, the pressure got there so fast that the help wasn't able to get there in time (like the back or TE couldn't chip before Schofield was already beat).


The Hillman thing is also perplexing, but we know that CJ is playing injured. His ribs and ankle are all messed up. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out his ribs are broken later on. I think this kind of forces Hillman to take the majority of snaps.

He has adjusted at times though (Chargers game taking Brock out, Cincy up tempo with Brock, Peyton no huddle KC). He apparently held Vernon accountable because he isn't even on the field anymore, and it's hard to get any offense going when you take away an entire dimension of it (in this case, the running game).

Other than that, I don't think I have any rebuttals or plausible explanations for you.

pricejj
01-18-2016, 12:11 AM
The last time Osweiler was on the field, Denver was up 7-6.

What is happening? Broncos fans used to be the brightest. Y'all are zombified or something.

Broncos play in 7 days for a chance to go to SB50. Wake up.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
01-18-2016, 01:54 AM
I am fairly certain that our offense issues have little to do with players dropping passes. Or elite QBs playing bad, or rookie QBs playing like rookies. It has to do with Kubiak stubbornly playing his run-first, slow-paced, grind-it-out offense that he thinks is the KEY to winning a SB.

He is dead wrong.

It got us the #1 seed you say? No. Elway drafting defensive players the first round for years, and getting Wade in here, is why we are the #1 seed. Make no mistake.. if our defense wasn't what it was, we'd be LUCKY to be 8-8 this season.

Dropped passes are a product of a slow running, huddle, take-forever to get the next play called and run type of offense. The very few times we went up-tempo on this offense, what happened? Against the Bengals for example, last game. We dominated on offense. On pass AND run. Even today, the one drive we actually started up-tempo.. we got 3 first downs in three plays. Then change of quarter.. then back to the slooooooow offense Kubiak likes to run... and stifled.. again.

If Kubiak is going to put Manning in, he needs to allow him to play the fast-paced, up tempo offense he has played his entire career. In Mile High in particular, it's very effective.. it wears out defenses in a hurry. This ridiculous "ok.. let's huddle.. talk about this next play for 30 seconds.. we are controlling the game after all!.. la-la-laaah.." offense SUCKS!! It's terrible. The only people that like it are Kubiak and Luigi. I was yelling during the game for Elway to call down to Kubiak and say "Dude.. shut up.. let Manning play his game."

If we really want a shot at winning the SB, Kubiak HAS to allow our offense to go at Manning's pace. Not Kubiak's pace. The entire POINT of homefield advantage is like.. using it. In our case, fast paced offense, wear down defenses so they can't keep up if they wanted to.

I hope and pray that Elway has a talk with Kubiak this week.. and tells him, if you are going to play Manning... let him be the QB he can be. Up-tempo is the key to winning. Not some cruddy, slow, medicore bend and mostly break offense based on a horrible running game that relies on a terrible line and mediocre RBs.

Very well argued, and I quite agree.

Today's offensive game plan was a veritable study in mediocrity and predictability.

Allowing Manning to do his own thing gives us our best chance going forward, IMO.

We are in a situation where our QB is a greater offensive mind than our HC.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-18-2016, 03:03 AM
Kubiak was horrible

Every 2nd and ten is a run. Constant huddling, which takes away the one thing Peyton actually still does well. To me, his crappy play calling was the biggest story of the game

And Peyton needs to not throw to Jordan Norwood and Andre Caldwell. Especially fade routes. Know your personnel

SonOfLe-loLang
01-18-2016, 03:06 AM
So for all the manning detractors... Does this win loss get added to his one and done count?

Taco John
01-18-2016, 03:17 AM
I'm not humiliated. I just realize we are winning in spite of Kubiak's shoddy job with his side of the ball. The best parts of the team are the parts he has very little to do with. That you don't get this is baffling to me.


Oh but you are. You don't have the good sense to be humiliated, but to anyone outside of your little thought bubble, you're the guy who won't shut up about how much it sucks to be doing all the winning that we are doing. I understand that you aren't personally humiliated. That's just how the outside world percieves that you should feel given how wrong the world has proven you.

Taco John
01-18-2016, 03:27 AM
If you say so. I'm pretty sure they would've beat the Colts with Wade Phillips as the DC instead of Jack Del Rio who had one foot out the door.

It turns out that this isn't Madden.

chrisp
01-18-2016, 03:28 AM
So let me get this right...drop the approach that won us the game last night and also won us 2 superbowls back in the 90's, and go back to the shotgun, hurry-up spread offense that was one-and-done in 2012 and last year's playoffs and absolutely curb stomped by Seattle in superbowl 48? Riiiighht.....

Might also be worth mentioning that when Manning won with the Colts in 2006 they moved to a more slow-paced balanced offensive attack in the playoffs. Then in 2009 they go pack to the pass-first approach and....hey, got their asses handed to them by New Orleans in superbowl 44!!

Finally, we did come out firing with (as other posters have pointed out) the majority of early plays being through the air and it didn't work - but guess what? This coaching staff has a plan B......

Cannot believe some people are still complaining. Seriously, we're supposed to win every game 30-0? Really? This is the playoffs people, the teams we are playing are good.....

Punisher
01-18-2016, 03:50 AM
You would hate on him no matter how he performed. If he had a 340 yard, 4 TD game, I guarantee you'd have negative comments about him. You simply hate the guy. So your comments are 100% worthless.

Manning can't throw 4 TDs anymore. Everyone in Denver and all Broncos fans around the ****ing world would feel so confident going against the Pats this week if he threw 4 TDs but he didn't. Brock needs to start. **** if Manning wins the Super Bowl ill the be 1st to eat crow with a big happy smile on my face but I just don't see us beating the Pats with Manning.

gyldenlove
01-18-2016, 03:59 AM
I'm not praising an "offensive" coach. I'm praising the HEAD coach who has installed a new attitude in this team that was sorely missing. These guys have guts in the fourth quarter and fight like hell despite adversity. Wade Phillips has been a great addition to this team, and another example of why Kubiak was the right guy. He brought in a great DC and has given him full autonomy to install what may be the best defense Denver has ever had.

Now we're in the AFC Championship game and salty guys like you are completely humiliated by all the winning this team is doing in spite of your doom and gloom. You've told us all season long how bad the Broncos are, what terrible coaches we have, how stupid we all are for believing in them. And here we are, in the AFC Championship game winning like we've won all seaon: gritty, gutsy, and with a ton of fourth quarter balls. And the best thing that you have to say about the AFC West Champion Denver Broncos as the are entering the AFC Championship game against the Super Bowl Champions is that the coaching sucks.

So great, why don't you dazzle us with your logic this week about how you are right and we all are wrong. Why should this week be any differnt than any other?

I didn't see any kicking or screaming yesterday. The defense kept playing ball and kept giving the offense chances that the offense kept wasting. Let me be completely frank, with a defensive performance like that any of the other 3 teams left in the tournament would have put up 30+ points.

Four years ago we won exactly the same way, tons of solid D, an offense that was anemic but somehow got a pass because people loved the QB. We beat a hobbled Steelers team at home in round 1 in a game that was much closer than it should be because the offense couldn't find the end zone if you gave them a map. Lots of 4th quarter heroics because the offense couldn't score through the first three quarters and the defense had kept the games close.

We were in the super bowl two years ago led by a coach that everybody widely agrees was so incompetent that him cashing his pay check bordered on fraud.

Kubiak has proved nothing so far, he certainly has the chance to do so but until he does something Fox didn't do I am going to remain skeptical.

frozenconcentratedorange
01-18-2016, 04:02 AM
Kubiak is a genius.
He realised that the team with the fewest TOs would win the game.

That's why he burned the timeouts

Agamemnon
01-18-2016, 05:04 AM
Oh but you are. You don't have the good sense to be humiliated, but to anyone outside of your little thought bubble, you're the guy who won't shut up about how much it sucks to be doing all the winning that we are doing. I understand that you aren't personally humiliated. That's just how the outside world percieves that you should feel given how wrong the world has proven you.

The crap you post. "You are humiliated, you just don't have the good sense to realize it." Herp derp Taco. Seriously, herp derp. Kubiak has sucked all season, and the only people who should be humiliated are those of you who are too dumb to realize the team's success has been in spite of him. Of course you people don't have the good sense to realize it...

winstoncup bronco
01-18-2016, 05:21 AM
Oh but you are. You don't have the good sense to be humiliated, but to anyone outside of your little thought bubble, you're the guy who won't shut up about how much it sucks to be doing all the winning that we are doing. I understand that you aren't personally humiliated. That's just how the outside world percieves that you should feel given how wrong the world has proven you.

You realize this is just an internet message board, right?

fontaine
01-18-2016, 05:40 AM
I'm not praising an "offensive" coach. I'm praising the HEAD coach who has installed a new attitude in this team that was sorely missing. These guys have guts in the fourth quarter and fight like hell despite adversity. Wade Phillips has been a great addition to this team, and another example of why Kubiak was the right guy. He brought in a great DC and has given him full autonomy to install what may be the best defense Denver has ever had.


Attitude?

Yeah that attitude must really help when Daniels keeps whiffing on blocks, or when the OL gets shoved backwards, or when WRs keep dropping passes.

Who wants execution when you can have attitude.

By the way Phillips wasn't Kubiak's first choice (Vance Joseph clearly was - Phillips even reffered to it when he was hired). And it was Elway and Kubiak who interviewed and met Phillips. And what the hell do you mean "given him full autonomy" over the defense?

Kubiak has pretty much failed to create a better run game/OL which is the primary reason he was brought here for. But yeah who wants a dominant run game and solid execution on the OL when you can have attitude!

fontaine
01-18-2016, 05:43 AM
That last drive against a tough steelers defense isn't what I'd describe as soft. They wore them down pretty good and the way they punched it in to take the lead was very gritty and tough. I disagree with soft being attached to this offense. There's been a number of key drives by this offense in the 4th quarter this year and pulled out a win.

A soft offense turtles and withers away, like it used to under Gase/Fox. It's a different mindset and attitude this year, as I keep repeating.

We ran the ball more consistently and with more power sets in the 2nd half of the season last year than almost any other team.

But yeah, I get it, Fox/Gase suck a$$ because they couldn't win a superbowl.

fontaine
01-18-2016, 05:46 AM
You can't win. When we blew out teams with Manning/Gase our offense was soft as Charmin.

When we grind and wear down defenses with long drives in the 4th quarter, we are still soft as Charmin.

A perfect dichotomy, and yet the same description is used for both.

WTF?

We had one drive of about 6 minutes in the 4th quarter.

The rest of the drives? Not one lasted more than 4 minutes. About the only thing this offense wore down was our own D.

It was the same thing the regular season when we were one of the worst teams in time per drive/plays per drive counts.

But yeah, let's keep that Kubiak circle jerk going strong.

winstoncup bronco
01-18-2016, 05:50 AM
I didn't see any kicking or screaming yesterday. The defense kept playing ball and kept giving the offense chances that the offense kept wasting. Let me be completely frank, with a defensive performance like that any of the other 3 teams left in the tournament would have put up 30+ points.

Four years ago we won exactly the same way, tons of solid D, an offense that was anemic but somehow got a pass because people loved the QB. We beat a hobbled Steelers team at home in round 1 in a game that was much closer than it should be because the offense couldn't find the end zone if you gave them a map. Lots of 4th quarter heroics because the offense couldn't score through the first three quarters and the defense had kept the games close.

We were in the super bowl two years ago led by a coach that everybody widely agrees was so incompetent that him cashing his pay check bordered on fraud.

Kubiak has proved nothing so far, he certainly has the chance to do so but until he does something Fox didn't do I am going to remain skeptical.

Our offense is basically programmed to limit mistakes, run the ball, and get the occasional big play. We laugh at the Chiefs for doing the same thing. Whatever works is fine with me, but people are acting like we're haggling over the 2013 offense.

Tombstone RJ
01-18-2016, 05:51 AM
I am fairly certain that our offense issues have little to do with players dropping passes. Or elite QBs playing bad, or rookie QBs playing like rookies. It has to do with Kubiak stubbornly playing his run-first, slow-paced, grind-it-out offense that he thinks is the KEY to winning a SB.

He is dead wrong.

It got us the #1 seed you say? No. Elway drafting defensive players the first round for years, and getting Wade in here, is why we are the #1 seed. Make no mistake.. if our defense wasn't what it was, we'd be LUCKY to be 8-8 this season.

Dropped passes are a product of a slow running, huddle, take-forever to get the next play called and run type of offense. The very few times we went up-tempo on this offense, what happened? Against the Bengals for example, last game. We dominated on offense. On pass AND run. Even today, the one drive we actually started up-tempo.. we got 3 first downs in three plays. Then change of quarter.. then back to the slooooooow offense Kubiak likes to run... and stifled.. again.

If Kubiak is going to put Manning in, he needs to allow him to play the fast-paced, up tempo offense he has played his entire career. In Mile High in particular, it's very effective.. it wears out defenses in a hurry. This ridiculous "ok.. let's huddle.. talk about this next play for 30 seconds.. we are controlling the game after all!.. la-la-laaah.." offense SUCKS!! It's terrible. The only people that like it are Kubiak and Luigi. I was yelling during the game for Elway to call down to Kubiak and say "Dude.. shut up.. let Manning play his game."

If we really want a shot at winning the SB, Kubiak HAS to allow our offense to go at Manning's pace. Not Kubiak's pace. The entire POINT of homefield advantage is like.. using it. In our case, fast paced offense, wear down defenses so they can't keep up if they wanted to.

I hope and pray that Elway has a talk with Kubiak this week.. and tells him, if you are going to play Manning... let him be the QB he can be. Up-tempo is the key to winning. Not some cruddy, slow, medicore bend and mostly break offense based on a horrible running game that relies on a terrible line and mediocre RBs.

I disagree. The dropped passes had a big effect on the offensive numbers and they happen because of lack of concentration. That's on the players not the scheme.

gobroncos313
01-18-2016, 05:56 AM
Well. The pats run defense is not pittsburghs. If you watched the Chiefs pats game it's pretty obvious if reed would Gathas smith throw about 15 less times and run the ball about 15 more times they might have beat the patriots

fontaine
01-18-2016, 05:58 AM
Our offense is basically programmed to limit mistakes, run the ball, and get the occasional big play. We laugh at the Chiefs for doing the same thing. Whatever works is fine with me, but people are acting like we're haggling over the 2013 offense.

Exactly. We even take less shots down the field with Manning than the chiefs do with Alex Smith.

It doesn't bother me, whatever it takes to win and screw the style points.

I just think it's hilarious that TJ and others claim it's "attitude" and what got us those super bowl wins when Kubiak runs ball control offense with check downs and short passes.

2KBack
01-18-2016, 06:02 AM
Exactly. We even take less shots down the field with Manning than the chiefs do with Alex Smith.

It doesn't bother me, whatever it takes to win and screw the style points.

I just think it's hilarious that TJ and others claim it's "attitude" and what got us those super bowl wins when Kubiak runs ball control offense with check downs and short passes.

We do have some Swagger and Attitude on this team, but in players that aren't utilized enough in my opinion. Fowler, CJ, Green are under utilized in my opinion, good things happen when these guys get touches. They are all scrappers.

fontaine
01-18-2016, 06:09 AM
We do have some Swagger and Attitude on this team, but in players that aren't utilized enough in my opinion. Fowler, CJ, Green are under utilized in my opinion, good things happen when these guys get touches. They are all scrappers.

I'm not saying the Broncos don't have tough, driven players on offense. Clearly they do, like the guys you mentioned that were on the team before Kubiak was hired.

But yeah, according to some let's give Kubiak credit for that.

OABB
01-18-2016, 06:14 AM
So let me get this right...drop the approach that won us the game last night and also won us 2 superbowls back in the 90's, and go back to the shotgun, hurry-up spread offense that was one-and-done in 2012 and last year's playoffs and absolutely curb stomped by Seattle in superbowl 48? Riiiighht.....

Might also be worth mentioning that when Manning won with the Colts in 2006 they moved to a more slow-paced balanced offensive attack in the playoffs. Then in 2009 they go pack to the pass-first approach and....hey, got their asses handed to them by New Orleans in superbowl 44!!

Finally, we did come out firing with (as other posters have pointed out) the majority of early plays being through the air and it didn't work - but guess what? This coaching staff has a plan B......

Cannot believe some people are still complaining. Seriously, we're supposed to win every game 30-0? Really? This is the playoffs people, the teams we are playing are good.....

Amen. I like the gameplan. The execution is the issue on offense. People thought the drops and lame blocking was because Brock lacked leadership. Manning was supposed to make everyone play better.

It was so stupid then, and it's been proven wrong now. The issues are that our offense plays poorly. They aren't good. Th difference the QB makes is that they play better in spurts with Brock. But they also **** the bed more with him too.

Manning keeps it a consistent and average suck and that should be good enough to win it all if he doesn't turn it over. I would rather get 4 straight tds in one half than 5 field goals. But at least they got a second half score yesterday because The defense came up with a huge turnover.

This playoff run is all about the D. They are truly special.

We just need the o to be average. That's what my wife said

2KBack
01-18-2016, 06:25 AM
I'm not saying the Broncos don't have tough, driven players on offense. Clearly they do, like the guys you mentioned that were on the team before Kubiak was hired.

But yeah, according to some let's give Kubiak credit for that.

I supported the hire, but the decisions this season have made it very hard to stay excited about his tenure. I can't even figure out what logic is being used to decide what players get playing time. Beyond the QB situation, that I think he has stumbled his way through. He is stubborn with struggling players and when there are several that flash whenever they get on the field, suddenly they disappear.

ArtoftheMan
01-18-2016, 06:29 AM
So for all the manning detractors... Does this win loss get added to his one and done count?

Manning has started 25 postseason games, and he's actually 0-25.
13 that he lost, and 12 that he should have lost...........

CEH
01-18-2016, 07:02 AM
Brady has thrown more TD passes in Mile High this year than Manning.

OABB
01-18-2016, 07:03 AM
Brady has thrown more TD passes in Mile High this year than Manning.

Brock too. But it's not about points. It's about audibles.

peacepipe
01-18-2016, 07:27 AM
1 td 8 int for manning at home this yr.

Drunken.Broncoholic2
01-18-2016, 07:28 AM
Not so much that kubiaks conservative, rather it's predictable. Watching steelers route tree then watching Broncos route tree it's horrible. Where's the pick routes? The crossing routes over the middle? Where's Daniels and green crossing like Heath Miller was doing? That 4th down Ben miss he had 3 players wide open but chose to go deep. I don't see any passing plays where 3 Broncos players create that separation from routes. I just see a lot of out patterns and curls. Very basic.

elsid13
01-18-2016, 07:41 AM
Not so much that kubiaks conservative, rather it's predictable. Watching steelers route tree then watching Broncos route tree it's horrible. Where's the pick routes? The crossing routes over the middle? Where's Daniels and green crossing like Heath Miller was doing? That 4th down Ben miss he had 3 players wide open but chose to go deep. I don't see any passing plays where 3 Broncos players create that separation from routes. I just see a lot of out patterns and curls. Very basic.

Because that are the only routes Manning is comfortable with throwing right now.

fontaine
01-18-2016, 07:48 AM
For me I love that we won but fundamentally our offense was unable/unwilling to try and exploit the defense's one true weakness in their intermediate/deep passing game.

Kubiak stubbornly ran the ball and kept the passing game tight even though that went directly against the strength of the defense. We took one true shot downfield and that was it when we dominated their pass defense with Brock and on the road in the previous game by being aggressive over the top right from the start of the game.

If you're going to do that (run your own offense mostly) then it has to be largely and execution based offense - our plays are going to beat you because we'll execute better.

Didn't really happen that way though outside of one drive. Not enough to beat the likes of NE, Arizona/Carolina in my opinion.

fontaine
01-18-2016, 07:51 AM
Because that are the only routes Manning is comfortable with throwing right now.

Comeback/dig routes yes to go with shallow crossers and drag routes. It's nothing new but the non-threat down the field, not even attempting more than one deep pass in a close game was disappointing.

Drunken.Broncoholic2
01-18-2016, 07:52 AM
Because that are the only routes Manning is comfortable with throwing right now.


If you're QB can't make all the throws that handcuffs your offense. from the sound of it Manning makes all the throws in practice with a lot of "zip" and looks "better than he ever has".




Also, Kubiak has got to make better choices with his TOs. He was far better than Fox during the season but it hurts to do that in the playoffs. I think only one was called in a good situation, before the 2 pt conversion. That one TO where the playcall after it was a horrible Hillman run was pretty bad. 2nd downs were a problem yesterday.

Endzo
01-18-2016, 07:52 AM
We have to be conservative. The offense is simply not that great. As long as we win the turn over and field position battle we can beat any team. Kubiak understands this and I think the game plan will be the sam against new england.

The Horse
01-18-2016, 07:55 AM
We do have some Swagger and Attitude on this team, but in players that aren't utilized enough in my opinion. Fowler, CJ, Green are under utilized in my opinion, good things happen when these guys get touches. They are all scrappers.

Pittsburgh ran some really cool plays that got their playmakers open and in a position to make big plays. We don't seem to have that ability and it starts with the play calling. We have play makers. Let's open it up and use them.

fontaine
01-18-2016, 07:56 AM
I supported the hire, but the decisions this season have made it very hard to stay excited about his tenure. I can't even figure out what logic is being used to decide what players get playing time. Beyond the QB situation, that I think he has stumbled his way through. He is stubborn with struggling players and when there are several that flash whenever they get on the field, suddenly they disappear.

I think Kubiak is okay as a Head Coach.

I think his real weakness is that he hasn't shown any plan B when the ZBS isn't working well. Doesn't matter who the QB/OL/RB/TEs are, if we don't run the ball well then I don't see Kubiak being able to generate points/TDs.

Pretty disturbing IMO.

TonyR
01-18-2016, 07:56 AM
...we dominated their pass defense with Brock and on the road in the previous game by being aggressive over the top right from the start of the game.


True. And then the 2nd half happened.

Drunken.Broncoholic2
01-18-2016, 07:56 AM
Comeback/dig routes yes to go with shallow crossers and drag routes. It's nothing new but the non-threat down the field, not even attempting more than one deep pass in a close game was disappointing.

Gotta wonder how much of it was them scared of the wind. When you have multiple weapons that stretch the field you never go to those plays? Manning attempted more downfield throws in one half against SD than the entire game yesterday. Can't be scared of conditions. Ben was throwing downfield with a busted arm no problem. If Manning can't do it, that's not the best choice IMO.

Gutless Drunk
01-18-2016, 07:58 AM
Three of the four teams left were the top three scoring teams in the NFL. Good thing defense wins championships-

37181

Drunken.Broncoholic2
01-18-2016, 08:00 AM
Ha! Gutless. If ever there was an example that defense > offense it will be this year. Although those 3 other teams have pretty good defenses

Br0nc0Buster
01-18-2016, 08:00 AM
We have to get a quarterback in there (Brock) who can execute the offense before we throw any definitive conclusions out there

Peyton can't physically throw the ball anymore beyond 15 yards.
It is really easy to nitpick the playcalling, but realistically what sort of plays can you run for a qb who can't drive the ball?

It is easy to say "just call crossing routes", but again those intermediate routes are going to be much tougher to hit when defenders jump everything because they are not afraid of getting beat deep

When Brock was in the game our offense had life to it
We ran the ball a little better, turned it over much less, and overall were much more efficient
This all with a trainwreck of an offensive line

Our only touchdown yesterday came when we had help with the run game
It may be stubborn but I think the only way we can score touchdowns is with the run game

Manning's arm can no longer beat teams, and if he is going to be the starter we need to have a run game that can pick up yardage and open up throwing lanes through playaction

I don't think it matters what route tree we run if we can't run the ball
You can't completely hide Manning's weak arm

TonyR
01-18-2016, 08:02 AM
Although those 3 other teams have pretty good defenses

First thing I thought of as well. Which is why I don't like our chances.

TonyR
01-18-2016, 08:03 AM
When Brock was in the game our offense had life to it

At times it certainly seemed that way. But fewer points per drive suggests that's an amateurish and wishful way of looking at it.

Drunken.Broncoholic2
01-18-2016, 08:08 AM
One play they should never ever do again is that direct snap to Hillman. Yuck

BroncosfanGuy
01-18-2016, 08:10 AM
One play they should never ever do again is that direct snap to Hillman. Yuck

the funny thing is I actually liked the idea of that play, but wow did it ever get sniffed out

Br0nc0Buster
01-18-2016, 08:11 AM
At times it certainly seemed that way. But fewer points per drive suggests that's an amateurish and wishful way of looking at it.

Its already been pointed out you a couple times when adjusted for defensive/ST touchdowns our offense scored more with Brock

That said that isn't my point
My point is that our floor with Brock is our ceiling with Manning

We were scoring similar with a guy still learning who had the potential for improvement

With Manning we have an immobile Alex Smith
There is no reason to think it will get better

It is what it is
I am thrilled we are in the AFC Championship game, but don't have very much confidence at all in this offense with Manning

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2016, 08:12 AM
One play they should never ever do again is that direct snap to Hillman. Yuck

Why do we see so much Hillman at all? Still just don't get it.

There was a run yesterday that CJ probably turns into 10-15 yards that Hillman kept bouncing outside from the far hash all the way to the sideline for 5 or so.

Dude just refuses to cut up field between defenders unless you force him.

OABB
01-18-2016, 08:12 AM
Its already been pointed out you a couple times when adjusted for defensive/ST touchdowns our offense scored more with Brock

That said that isn't my point
My point is that our floor with Brock is our ceiling with Manning

We were scoring similar with a guy still learning who had the potential for improvement

With Manning we have an immobile Alex Smith
There is no reason to think it will get better

It is what it is
I am thrilled we are in the AFC Championship game, but don't have very much confidence at all in this offense with Manning

Great post

Drunken.Broncoholic2
01-18-2016, 08:13 AM
the funny thing is I actually liked the idea of that play, but wow did it ever get sniffed out


Lucky Manning didnt get blasted from the side Ha!

Drunken.Broncoholic2
01-18-2016, 08:16 AM
Why do we see so much Hillman at all? Still just don't get it.

There was a run yesterday that CJ probably turns into 10-15 yards that Hillman kept bouncing outside from the far hash all the way to the sideline for 5 or so.

Dude just refuses to cut up field between defenders unless you force him.


Loved that big gainer CJ took from deep near the goalline. I remember the one you're talking about. Ya that last cut should've been to the right of the defender instead of bouncing it to the sideline. There was a lot of room but he'd probably would've needed to break the tackle. Also Pretty frustrating to see CJ on the sidelines with a jacket on during a 3rd and 2.

fontaine
01-18-2016, 08:17 AM
True. And then the 2nd half happened.

Yeah, but one throw downfield? I'm not saying pass the ball deep every second/third throw but establish a good balance, especially when we're in favorable down/distance situations or with the wind at our back.

Br0nc0Buster
01-18-2016, 08:20 AM
I think we do have a change, although a small one
CJ is going to have to beast though

And guys like Thomas are going to have to catch everything

It is all going to hinge on our run game

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2016, 08:24 AM
Loved that big gainer CJ took from deep near the goalline. I remember the one you're talking about. Ya that last cut should've been to the right of the defender instead of bouncing it to the sideline. There was a lot of room but he'd probably would've needed to break the tackle. Also Pretty frustrating to see CJ on the sidelines with a jacket on during a 3rd and 2.

Runs like that is where CJ shines making tacklers look silly. Someone needs to tell Ronnie that you can't break the sideline like you can a tackle.

How many times do you see CJ brought down by a single tackler in space like that? Those are the kind of plays that can turn into triples and home runs if you take on the defenders. The sideline always wins.

WolfpackGuy
01-18-2016, 08:28 AM
One play they should never ever do again is that direct snap to Hillman. Yuck

Or the one later in the shotgun (maybe pistol) where Manning went backwards diagonally A LONG WAYS to give Hillman the handoff.

That was like a 6 yard loss.

elsid13
01-18-2016, 08:30 AM
I get folks are angry that the offense isn't clicking, but lets deal in facts:

1. Everyone says it takes about 3 years for a team/QB to master this offense
2. Guard play is key to the ZBS and we had ****ty play all year at that position
3. Manning has been hurt and struggle to play under center at this point of his career
4. With the fact that Manning can not threaten any defense with bootleg or rollout away from running action, the defense doesn't need to keep anyone home

That being said they are finding ways to win and we are one game away from the SB.

gyldenlove
01-18-2016, 08:42 AM
I get folks are angry that the offense isn't clicking, but lets deal in facts:

1. Everyone says it takes about 3 years for a team/QB to master this offense
2. Guard play is key to the ZBS and we had ****ty play all year at that position
3. Manning has been hurt and struggle to play under center at this point of his career
4. With the fact that Manning can not threaten any defense with bootleg or rollout away from running action, the defense doesn't need to keep anyone home

That being said they are finding ways to win and we are one game away from the SB.

These really seem like things a good coach would pick up on and then not do. If the players you have can't run the gameplan then you change the gameplan.

1. This is outright not true. No HC in the NFL today is going to get 3 years of mulligans, and clearly players have mastered more complex offenses than Kubiak's in less time.
2. All the more reason not to try to force that running system. But I guess when a coach only knows one thing....
3. A coach forcing a system on players who demonstrably can not execute it, I am seeing a pattern emerging.
4. Doesn't need to keep anyone home? This is utter nonsense, not even teams playing Cam Newton and Panthers routinely keep a QB spy close to the line. In coverage schemes in the NFL a player is either tasked with covering a non-QB skill player, rushing or zone covering. When Plummer was running all those naked bootlegs teams didn't "keep a guy home" to stop it, they relied on their rushers to counter it or the cover guys to not give up the pass.

The offense is not finding ways to win, they are finding ways to not lose.

2KBack
01-18-2016, 09:14 AM
At times it certainly seemed that way. But fewer points per drive suggests that's an amateurish and wishful way of looking at it.

We analyzed this to death, Brock didn't have fewer points per drive. They were essentially equal without taking into account length of drive, starting position, or drives that ended in Turnovers (non QB)or missed field goals. When the variables were removed, Manning scored fewer points per drive.

If we assume that the offensive issues are beyond thew QB, then we can assume both players played under almost identical circumstances. So we can take their season statistics and extrapolate them over 16 games.

Manning would have been around 3584 yards 16TD and 30INT
Brock would have been around 3920 Yards 23TD 14INT

Denver averaged more yards and 1st downs with Brock. On top of that Brock drove an average of 72 yards for every scoring drive....Manning an average of 53. Again without taking into account any errors or non QB turnovers on drives in scoring position (or missed FG).

So we could keep perpetuating the myth that Manning played superior to Brock, or we could call it what it is. Manning starting is not performance based, it is legacy and experience based. Which is too bad, since we can't say how Brock would have performed in the Playoffs, though we do know that he has seemed to play his best against the best competition.

If we keep winning, we will know why, the defense. It would be amateurish and weak surface level analysis to think otherwise.

Fitzy47
01-18-2016, 09:42 AM
At what point does the personnel shoulder some blame for the offensive woes as well?

1. A 39 year old QB who can't drive the ball like he used to
2. An injured CJ Anderson
3. Ronnie Hilman who gets tackled by a gust of wind
4. Michael Schofield - no explanation needed
5. Evan Mathis and Lou Vasquez have looked like they both retired
6. Ryan Harris - has been decent, but by no means anything more than average
7. Matt Paradis - improved as the year has gone on, but still nothing to write home about
8. Max Garcia - Same as Paradis
9. Demaryius Thomas - how many big drive killing drops has he had this year?
10. Owen Daniels - old and struggles to get much separation
11. Vernon Davis - We possibly finish 14-2 without his drops - there's a reason he's not playing anymore

That leaves Virgil Green and Emmanuel Sanders. Sanders has been pretty consistent. Virgil has been consistently average.

Let's call it what it is. We're not star studded on offense anymore. Elway has yet to spend a first round pick on an offensive player. His 2nd round offensive picks are non factors right now:

2012 - Brock on the bench
2013 - Montee Ball not on the team
2014 - Latimer on the bench
2015 - Ty Sambrailo injured


Is it on Kubiak for needing to put his players in better positions to succeed? Adjusting things to fit their skill sets? Of course. But it's on the players to execute. Too many times than not they have simply gotten beat by the guy across from them.

2KBack
01-18-2016, 09:55 AM
At what point does the personnel shoulder some blame for the offensive woes as well?

1. A 39 year old QB who can't drive the ball like he used to
2. An injured CJ Anderson
3. Ronnie Hilman who gets tackled by a gust of wind
4. Michael Schofield - no explanation needed
5. Evan Mathis and Lou Vasquez have looked like they both retired
6. Ryan Harris - has been decent, but by no means anything more than average
7. Matt Paradis - improved as the year has gone on, but still nothing to write home about
8. Max Garcia - Same as Paradis
9. Demaryius Thomas - how many big drive killing drops has he had this year?
10. Owen Daniels - old and struggles to get much separation
11. Vernon Davis - We possibly finish 14-2 without his drops - there's a reason he's not playing anymore

That leaves Virgil Green and Emmanuel Sanders. Sanders has been pretty consistent. Virgil has been consistently average.

Let's call it what it is. We're not star studded on offense anymore. Elway has yet to spend a first round pick on an offensive player. His 2nd round offensive picks are non factors right now:

2012 - Brock on the bench
2013 - Montee Ball not on the team
2014 - Latimer on the bench
2015 - Ty Sambrailo injured


Is it on Kubiak for needing to put his players in better positions to succeed? Adjusting things to fit their skill sets? Of course. But it's on the players to execute. Too many times than not they have simply gotten beat by the guy across from them.

Kind of goes both ways. The Oline we know is lacking talent, but the problems these other guys are facing are not typical of their talent level. How are DT and Sanders inconsistencies this season being handled in meetings and practice? Guys like Fowler and Green seem to make plays when given the opportunity, why don't we see more opportunities? Kayvon Webster has been busting his ass on special teams, why haven't we tried putting him out there on defense instead of street guys like Bush (who messed up again yesterday)?

It could all stem from Oline, but there are other questions as well.

maven
01-18-2016, 09:59 AM
Well. The pats run defense is not pittsburghs. If you watched the Chiefs pats game it's pretty obvious if reed would Gathas smith throw about 15 less times and run the ball about 15 more times they might have beat the patriots

I don't get it. The Chiefs had an opportunity to pound the ball down NE's throat and they simply chose not to.

Rohirrim
01-18-2016, 10:02 AM
To quote the Dark Lord himself, "Just win, baby."

Fitzy47
01-18-2016, 10:05 AM
Kind of goes both ways. The Oline we know is lacking talent, but the problems these other guys are facing are not typical of their talent level. How are DT and Sanders inconsistencies this season being handled in meetings and practice? Guys like Fowler and Green seem to make plays when given the opportunity, why don't we see more opportunities? Kayvon Webster has been busting his ass on special teams, why haven't we tried putting him out there on defense instead of street guys like Bush (who messed up again yesterday)?

It could all stem from Oline, but there are other questions as well.


Oline has been trash all year and you're right we never adjusted after losing both Clady and Ty. Part of oline struggle has to be put on coaching, I agree.

Bush plays safety. Kayvon plays corner. In our dime packages Wade likes using 3 safeties (Bruton, Stewart, Ward) and 3 corners (Roby, Talib, Harris). Webster has this gotten all of the snaps at corner and you can't expect him to come in and play the dime when he had played a different position all season.

Fowler is getting opportunities. There is a reason he is playing and not Latimer (who we invested a 2nd round pick on).

Rohirrim
01-18-2016, 10:08 AM
It just occurs to me, if we could somehow pull off the improbable SB win this year, we'll be considerably better next year.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2016, 10:11 AM
It just occurs to me, if we could somehow pull off the improbable SB win this year, we'll be considerably better next year.

A lot of question marks, but yeah.

We're pretty much starting at this point post-Manning. We're probably where we are this year with or without him.

Unthinkable even only 2 years ago. So spoiled.

hipster.doofus
01-18-2016, 10:20 AM
Denver averaged more yards and 1st downs with Brock. On top of that Brock drove an average of 72 yards for every scoring drive....Manning an average of 53. Again without taking into account any errors or non QB turnovers on drives in scoring position (or missed FG).

So we could keep perpetuating the myth that Manning played superior to Brock, or we could call it what it is.


The Broncos are now 9-2 in the 11 games Manning played this season. They would've been 4-3 in those 7 games Osweiler played... had Manning not stepped in and guided the Broncos to a comeback victory against the Chargers. Imagine if Manning hadn't stepped in and righted the ship against the Chargers. The Broncos would have lost 3 of their final 4 games with Osweiler. The Broncos under Brock had a disturbing propensity to stall for long periods of time, particularly after half time. This was obvious before he was even benched.


The Broncos as a team simply play better when Manning is on the field. Maybe it's his ability to recognize defenses and call adjustments before the snap. But my personal theory is that this was just a morale thing, where the team rallies around a living legend. But it's very obvious the team plays better with Manning, even though Manning himself doesn't throw passes as well as Osweiler.


Do you honestly believe it's a good idea to insert an inexperienced QB with only 6.5 games of experience into these playoff games? This late in the season, I think that would be just a foolish move. If the Broncos wanted to go with Brock, they should've started him from Day 1 and provided him the experience he needed in time for the playoffs. But that ship has sailed, and there's no sense in crying over spilled milk at this point.

24champ
01-18-2016, 10:22 AM
Attitude?

Yeah that attitude must really help when Daniels keeps whiffing on blocks, or when the OL gets shoved backwards, or when WRs keep dropping passes.

Who wants execution when you can have attitude.

By the way Phillips wasn't Kubiak's first choice (Vance Joseph clearly was - Phillips even reffered to it when he was hired). And it was Elway and Kubiak who interviewed and met Phillips. And what the hell do you mean "given him full autonomy" over the defense?

Kubiak has pretty much failed to create a better run game/OL which is the primary reason he was brought here for. But yeah who wants a dominant run game and solid execution on the OL when you can have attitude!

:giggle:

From a couple weeks ago...


"Part of the reason that Im here is because I believe in Gary. Ive had the opportunity and had opportunities to go with other coaches, but Gary is an outstanding coach. I really believe inhes a great motivator besides being a terrific football mind, especially offense, even of the whole team. Ive been lucky to be with a lot ofand some of it was my choice, not all of them. I got to be with my dad, but I also got to be with Buddy Ryan. I got to be with Marty Schottenheimer. I got to be with Marv Levy, the Hall of Famer Marv Levy. (Ring of Fame Coach) Dan Reeves. These are top-notch, outstanding coaches. I include Gary in that group.

- Wade Phillips


But yeah I know what you are going to say... "what does Wade know, Kubiak is a dunce!" ::)

Rohirrim
01-18-2016, 10:29 AM
:giggle:

From a couple weeks ago...


"Part of the reason that Im here is because I believe in Gary. Ive had the opportunity and had opportunities to go with other coaches, but Gary is an outstanding coach. I really believe inhes a great motivator besides being a terrific football mind, especially offense, even of the whole team. Ive been lucky to be with a lot ofand some of it was my choice, not all of them. I got to be with my dad, but I also got to be with Buddy Ryan. I got to be with Marty Schottenheimer. I got to be with Marv Levy, the Hall of Famer Marv Levy. (Ring of Fame Coach) Dan Reeves. These are top-notch, outstanding coaches. I include Gary in that group.

- Wade Phillips


But yeah I know what you are going to say... "what does Wade know, Kubiak is a dunce!" ::)

Refreshing view from inside. :thumbs:

Fitzy47
01-18-2016, 10:34 AM
The Broncos are now 9-2 in the 11 games Manning played this season. They would've been 4-3 in those 7 games Osweiler played... had Manning not stepped in and guided the Broncos to a comeback victory against the Chargers. Imagine if Manning hadn't stepped in and righted the ship against the Chargers. The Broncos would have lost 3 of their final 4 games with Osweiler. The Broncos under Brock had a disturbing propensity to stall for long periods of time, particularly after half time. This was obvious before he was even benched.


The Broncos as a team simply play better when Manning is on the field. Maybe it's his ability to recognize defenses and call adjustments before the snap. But my personal theory is that this was just a morale thing, where the team rallies around a living legend. But it's very obvious the team plays better with Manning, even though Manning himself doesn't throw passes as well as Osweiler.


Do you honestly believe it's a good idea to insert an inexperienced QB with only 6.5 games of experience into these playoff games? This late in the season, I think that would be just a foolish move. If the Broncos wanted to go with Brock, they should've started him from Day 1 and provided him the experience he needed in time for the playoffs. But that ship has sailed, and there's no sense in crying over spilled milk at this point.

Brock orchestrated 14 point comeback wins against the two toughest games on our schedule. And yet you're implying that it was a foregone conclusion that he would lose to a Chargers team at home after having 300 yards in a half and having his team continuously drop balls and fumble? Come on.

You don't know that we would have lost with Brock, so quit spreading misinformation.

2KBack
01-18-2016, 10:36 AM
The Broncos are now 9-2 in the 11 games Manning played this season. They would've been 4-3 in those 7 games Osweiler played... had Manning not stepped in and guided the Broncos to a comeback victory against the Chargers. Imagine if Manning hadn't stepped in and righted the ship against the Chargers. The Broncos would have lost 3 of their final 4 games with Osweiler. The Broncos under Brock had a disturbing propensity to stall for long periods of time, particularly after half time. This was obvious before he was even benched.


The Broncos as a team simply play better when Manning is on the field. Maybe it's his ability to recognize defenses and call adjustments before the snap. But my personal theory is that this was just a morale thing, where the team rallies around a living legend. But it's very obvious the team plays better with Manning, even though Manning himself doesn't throw passes as well as Osweiler.


Do you honestly believe it's a good idea to insert an inexperienced QB with only 6.5 games of experience into these playoff games? This late in the season, I think that would be just a foolish move. If the Broncos wanted to go with Brock, they should've started him from Day 1 and provided him the experience he needed in time for the playoffs. But that ship has sailed, and there's no sense in crying over spilled milk at this point.

A post full of speculation with zero quantitative evidence. That's cool. I have offered pages full of proof that the team does not play any better with Manning, and in fact statistically has been worse in many Categories. If you want to refute that, that's cool, but bring evidence.

Evidence that doesn't place the KC loss on Brock. Come on, try to be objective.

The SD is not evidence, we had the lead when Brock was pulled and it is extremely disingenuous to think we wouldn't have won that game. Unless you think SD is better than Cincinnati and New England, both games where he led multiple score comebacks.

The poor halves have been a problem all season long by the way, or did you miss the first half yesterday. Denver scored 2 field goals on 2 drives that totaled 24 yards. Hell one FG was a 3 and out. We didn't even get into the redzone until there were 6 minutes remaining in the 4th quarter.

Also a switch this late in the season? What does that even mean, They brought in Manning in the second half of the last game of the season?

You want to argue that they are going with experience, that's fine. It is literally the only valid argument there is, because there is ZERO evidence that the team performs better with Manning. While I hope the defense carries Manning off into the sunset with a lombardi, if that doesn't happen, I am going to be a little annoyed that we Brock still won't have that Playoff experience that is so valuable. So he'll be a playoff rookie still if/when we get back.

Taco John
01-18-2016, 11:18 AM
A post full of speculation with zero quantitative evidence. That's cool. I have offered pages full of proof that the team does not play any better with Manning, and in fact statistically has been worse in many Categories. If you want to refute that, that's cool, but bring evidence.

Evidence that doesn't place the KC loss on Brock. Come on, try to be objective.

The SD is not evidence, we had the lead when Brock was pulled and it is extremely disingenuous to think we wouldn't have won that game. Unless you think SD is better than Cincinnati and New England, both games where he led multiple score comebacks.

The poor halves have been a problem all season long by the way, or did you miss the first half yesterday. Denver scored 2 field goals on 2 drives that totaled 24 yards. Hell one FG was a 3 and out. We didn't even get into the redzone until there were 6 minutes remaining in the 4th quarter.

Also a switch this late in the season? What does that even mean, They brought in Manning in the second half of the last game of the season?

You want to argue that they are going with experience, that's fine. It is literally the only valid argument there is, because there is ZERO evidence that the team performs better with Manning. While I hope the defense carries Manning off into the sunset with a lombardi, if that doesn't happen, I am going to be a little annoyed that we Brock still won't have that Playoff experience that is so valuable. So he'll be a playoff rookie still if/when we get back.

According to all the reports, Brock is injured and couldn't have gone on Sunday.

2KBack
01-18-2016, 11:26 AM
According to all the reports, Brock is injured and couldn't have gone on Sunday.

Well, that's the other arguable reason.

hipster.doofus
01-18-2016, 12:11 PM
because there is ZERO evidence that the team performs better with Manning.


Besides the Broncos' 9-2 record with Manning, you mean.

Bronco Yoda
01-18-2016, 12:36 PM
I have all the answers

http://cdn-blog-assets.bigfishsites.com/Walkthroughs/Haunted-Hotel-Eternity/haunted-hotel-eternity038.jpg

2KBack
01-18-2016, 12:52 PM
Besides the Broncos' 9-2 record with Manning, you mean.

As I asked before, please expand on what part of this shows that the team performed better. Break down some numbers and match ups for me. Show me where Manning made the defense score the winning points in no less than 3 of his wins.

They each lost 2 games, and I can show empirical evidence that Manning played worse in his losses. You can't speculate either would win or lose any more, you can only analyze what actually has occurred.

So don't waste my time, come with some real analysis.

BroncoFox
01-18-2016, 04:44 PM
I had a couple glasses of wine before my first post, so if it seemed a bit rant-y.. sorry about that! =)

I still think Kubiak is calling a very poorly paced game. I was yelling for it in the first half.. then the halftime guys said we should pick up the tempo.. and then then announcers said Broncos should pick up the pace.. and we still didn't. For those that argue it got us to this point, there is no way that offense got us to this point. Our defense is almost solely responsible for our #1 seed. Our great comebacks were only needed because our offense has been so anemic.

The one time he really let Brock just go do his think was against the Pats, and it worked great. Players play much smoother and with more confidence when there is a rhythm to the flow of the game.. when they don't have to 2nd guess every play or think everything through. Just go and roll!

I'd be all for a run-control offense, if we had like.. an offensive line.. and like.. RBs, or a FB.. or anything that is needed in that sort of offense. For all that dedication to the run, we had just over 100 yards to show for it, and barely scraped out a win.. again. Our players and Manning looked frustrated much of the day. I could be wrong, but I think they are feeling like playing this offense is a chore.. they are not having fun, and they are not playing with a natural flow.. everything seems forced.

Dan Reeves used to coach the team like this. Run run.. pass. Run run.. run. Run.. run.. pass. Fourth qtr.. need another come from behind victory.. Elway, do your thing!

How many rallies have we needed so far this year to win? Or an amazing play in the last drive by our defense? I think they really need to open it up in the next two games! Or if not, there won't be two more games.

24champ
01-18-2016, 05:24 PM
Yeah we had over a 100 yards on the ground, a lot better than last years pathetic 88 yards on the ground against a s****y Colts defense. CJ punched it in on third down, that was huge. I think people aren't giving the Steelers much credit or respect for their trench players and linebackers. They were solid with Pruitt and Shazier is turning into an game wrecker.

As far as tempo goes, on a very windy day like yesterday where it was affecting the ball when it was thrown. I don't think it is wise to start slinging it around in those conditions and especially when the receivers were dropping the football like it was a hot potato.

At the end of the day Kubiak wanted zero turnovers and controlled the clock (something we didn't do last year either). Ultimately, the game was in the hands of the defense, (the #1 defense) and they delivered.

Gutless Drunk
01-18-2016, 05:34 PM
Yeah we had over a 100 yards on the ground, a lot better than last years pathetic 88 yards on the ground against a s****y Colts defense


I don't know if it was a lot better. Pitt game was 33 for 109 a 3.3 yard average. The Colts game was 20 for 88 a 4.4 yard average.

It was okay, hope for much better Sunday.

24champ
01-18-2016, 06:00 PM
I don't know if it was a lot better. Pitt game was 33 for 109 a 3.3 yard average. The Colts game was 20 for 88 a 4.4 yard average.

It was okay, hope for much better Sunday.

We had something like 12-13 yards rushing versus the Colts in the second half. A stark contrast to this Pitt game.

Fox/Gase pretty much abandoned the run game and allowed Manning to chuck it.

Stats are misleading for that game, Drunk.

cmc0605
01-18-2016, 06:13 PM
The tempo of the offense is most certainly a problem. Peyton Manning has always thrived not just on all the pre-snap shenanigans, but getting some rhythm going. He is nearly impossible to stop after a few first downs. Quick intermediate pass here, screen there, first down there. We did it one drive...three first downs in a row I think, but it stalled due to a bad block and sack. But it was the best looking "drive" of the night, and good things usually happen when we get up to the line quick. We move the ball bettter than people think, but always have some freak drive killer...sack, drop, penalty, etc. The pace of the offense helps or hurts on some of those things too.

It's not necessarily fast-paced (usually Peyton runs the clock down) or pass first (though we tend to set up the run with the pass better than the other way around). The combination of no-huddle and nature of the play calls sets a certain tone for the drive. We do not establish rhythm by running for -1 yards right tackle, huddle, running for -3 yards left tackle, huddle, pass on third and long. Even if the execution were better, consistent slow motion 3rd and 4's eventually do not convert.

I don't think it is an accident that our 4th quarter offense is actually pretty good. Yes, there's some urgency, but that is when we aim for some downfield action quickly.

Although net rushing stats look good, the variance is large...it's good to have a 40 yard run, but relying on them is not wise. We supplement them with way too many no gains, which seem to be worse than incomplete passes in terms of they affect the momentum of the drive.

This is true with both QBs.

Atwater His Ass
01-18-2016, 06:20 PM
Amazing how miserable some of you love to be, heading into the conference championship. At home. Man, what a horrible season we've had so far.

It's possible to be critical of the team's weakness and still enjoy the FANTASTIC season we've had up to this point. It's sport entertainment. You're allowed to have fun with it.

BroncoFox
01-24-2016, 08:24 PM
Just bumping because I still feel this is still a concern. Even Prisco in the middle of the game tweeted that "Gary, in this NFL, run run pass isn't going to get it done." or something to that effect. And while I am thrilled we won, I agree. I still feel his stubbornness in running the ball is a huge big deficit, mostly because we don't have a running game.

On first downs, it felt like: Hillman for 1. Hillman for -2. Hillman for 0. Hillman for 1.

Running for 30 times doesn't equate victory. People somehow linking us running the ball 30 times and us winning are just.. wrong. We did not win because we ran the ball 30 + times. We did not control the clock with our running "attack." We did not dictate the tempo of the game with our numerous 3 and outs. We in fact, I think led the league in 3 and outs this year by a wide margin. We had 8 three and outs today. The second half was rife with them, and also by running plays on first down.

We MAY win the SB solely based on the performance of our defense. But shouldn't the team stack the odds in our favor by like.. actually scoring more points? It was funny cause in the first drive, it seemed scripted. Many passes.. drove right down.. TD. And then we got into the Kubiak style of offense. Lots of runs.. being stuffed be damned, just run no matter what. Especially on first down!

I hope that someone.. anyone on the team.. (hopefully someone named Elway), tries to instill the need to mix it up a LITTLE.. so that we actually *gasp* pass on first down. And not run when they have like.. 8 in the box.

Agamemnon
01-24-2016, 08:28 PM
The big issues with Kubiak and the running game are that he's very predictable when he is going to run, and he uses Hillman and CJ like they are 100% interchangeable. Combined with a shoddy OL, that results in a lot of stuffed runs.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-24-2016, 08:30 PM
The big issues with Kubiak and the running game are that he's very predictable when he is going to run, and he uses Hillman and CJ like they are 100% interchangeable. Combined with a shoddy OL, that results in a lot of stuffed runs.

I agree here. Its unimaginative, he never changes the pace, and often predictable.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 08:39 PM
I agree here. Its unimaginative, he never changes the pace, and often predictable.

And it mostly wins games... Kubiak knows his team and knows what he can get out of them. He game plans around what they can and can't do and manages to come away with a team that is hard to beat.

BroncoFox
01-24-2016, 08:41 PM
And it mostly wins games... Kubiak knows his team and knows what he can get out of them. He game plans around what they can and can't do and manages to come away with a team that is hard to beat.

The defense mostly wins games. That's not conjuncture.. that is fact.

He is a run-first minded coach, who loves the play action, mobile QB, under center, grind the game sort of game plan. That is just who he is. Which is fine. But he needs to understand we don't have the o-line nor the RBs to run the offense he is so fond of.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 08:46 PM
The defense mostly wins games. That's not conjuncture.. that is fact.

He is a run-first minded coach, who loves the play action, mobile QB, under center, grind the game sort of game plan. That is just who he is. Which is fine. But he needs to understand we don't have the o-line nor the RBs to run the offense he is so fond of.

This team wins games. Coach Kubiak isn't forcing anything. He's doing what he can with this offense. He's mostly not taking any chances.

This isn't a run first team. This is a balanced offense team. Against the Pats, we passed 32 times and ran 30 times. The game plan today was perfect for what this team needed to do to win. This game looked no different than any other game we've had all season. The Broncos are hard to beat.

BroncoFox
01-24-2016, 09:07 PM
This team wins games. Coach Kubiak isn't forcing anything. He's doing what he can with this offense. He's mostly not taking any chances.

This isn't a run first team. This is a balanced offense team. Against the Pats, we passed 32 times and ran 30 times. The game plan today was perfect for what this team needed to do to win. This game looked no different than any other game we've had all season. The Broncos are hard to beat.

It would be balanced if our running game was as balanced as our passing game, but it's not. Our defense makes us hard to beat, not our offense. A running game that is effective chews up the clock, keeps the other QB off the field, and so on. Our running attack does none of these things. It just creates 3 and outs on a regular basis.

I totally get that Kubiak, especially with Manning's early season history, is being ultra conservative and safe. I just think they need to open it up a bit more. In the first drive, Manning and our passing attack looked great! Drove right down.. TD. And then.. we stopped it altogether.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-24-2016, 09:20 PM
And it mostly wins games... Kubiak knows his team and knows what he can get out of them. He game plans around what they can and can't do and manages to come away with a team that is hard to beat.

Its worked out, but I still think he makes it harder than it needs to be.

retro
01-24-2016, 09:22 PM
Manning had Sanders for a TD and led him to far in the end zone. Literally Manning is just like a little off all year, it's maddening.

here is to hoping in two weeks we play our best game of the year.

retro
01-24-2016, 09:22 PM
Today we never got the nail in the coffin run but you have to keep trying. I'd like to see about 5 less Hlllman touches, and give those to CJ.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 09:24 PM
Its worked out, but I still think he makes it harder than it needs to be.

I think it's hard, period. We don't have a great interior line and our runningbacks are inconsistent at best. Kubiak has managed the situation brilliantly, and created a team that is very tough to beat.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-24-2016, 09:26 PM
I think it's hard, period. We don't have a great interior line and our runningbacks are inconsistent at best. Kubiak has managed the situation brilliantly, and created a team that is very tough to beat.

He just neuters Peyton's ability to read defenses by huddling and never running at tempo. Just try mixing it up once in a while. Also, I don't think the play action ever gets anyone open. The only thing it does is take Peyton's eye off the defense. If we have his great football mind, we might as well use it sometimes.

BroncoFox
01-24-2016, 09:28 PM
Don't get me wrong.. I'm super impressed that he drove us to the SB in his first year as our coach! I do feel it was as much Elway drafting those defensive players, and Wade directing a great defense, as much as it was Kubes. Kubiak did motivate the team, kept their "grind.. kicking and screaming" mentality alive all year. So please believe me that I am not trying to take that way from him.

I just want a bit more freedom for our QB. We shouldn't have entire halves with 0 or 3 points. But we do.. because we play so "safe."

retro
01-24-2016, 09:30 PM
Don't get me wrong.. I'm super impressed that he drove us to the SB in his first year as our coach! I do feel it was as much Elway drafting those defensive players, and Wade directing a great defense, as much as it was Kubes. Kubiak did motivate the team, kept their "grind.. kicking and screaming" mentality alive all year. So please believe me that I am not trying to take that way from him.

I just want a bit more freedom for our QB. We shouldn't have entire halves with 0 or 3 points. But we do.. because we play so "safe."

He threw deep more with Brock. I think it has more to do with Mannings age then Kubaik not wanting to open things up.

You open things up, you turn it over, and people will say what an idiot you have a great defense. Right now the smart move is play field position until we are down by two scores.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 09:37 PM
He threw deep more with Brock. I think it has more to do with Mannings age then Kubaik not wanting to open things up.

You open things up, you turn it over, and people will say what an idiot you have a great defense. Right now the smart move is play field position until we are down by two scores.

This is exactly right. People are missing the point. You coach the team you have, not the team you wished you had. Kubiak is playing the hand that he was dealt masterfully. His game plan is designed to maximize the Broncos strengths and minimize its weaknesses. The game plan against the Patriots was perfect.

Drunken.Broncoholic2
01-24-2016, 09:39 PM
The scripted plays worked a lot of times this year. Then Theres a fall off when defenses change strategies. Pats got closer and closer to the line as the game went on. Pressing to the point where the entire defense was up close. Run hillman right. Run hillman left. Attempt a pass on 3rd down isn't going to cut it and it showed. Execution played a role in it too though. Manning to Norwood was a huge play missed. Not sure if inaccurate pass, or Norwoods route wasn't crisp.


All the 3 and outs going back to week 1 is not just on the OL or WR hands. The playcalling has been highly predictable all year. Whether it's Manning Brock Schaub etc etc it's always been the same plays/results. Kubiaks redzones have been bad for years, and only the blinded deny that and say it's "perfect".

Taco John
01-24-2016, 09:48 PM
The scripted plays worked a lot of times this year. Then Theres a fall off when defenses change strategies. Pats got closer and closer to the line as the game went on. Pressing to the point where the entire defense was up close. Run hillman right. Run hillman left. Attempt a pass on 3rd down isn't going to cut it and it showed. Execution played a role in it too though. Manning to Norwood was a huge play missed. Not sure if inaccurate pass, or Norwoods route wasn't crisp.


All the 3 and outs going back to week 1 is not just on the OL or WR hands. The playcalling has been highly predictable all year. Whether it's Manning Brock Schaub etc etc it's always been the same plays/results. Kubiaks redzones have been bad for years, and only the blinded deny that and say it's "perfect".


Kubiak has gotten everything he can out of the talent he has to work with. If you're looking for a lot of creativity and cute little tricky plays like Arizona was trying to run today against Carolina - well, that's not going to happen. That's not the kind of character Kubiak builds into his teams. Kubiak has put the best 11 guys he has in the best positions for them and coaches to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. The results are what we see... gritty, mostly mistake free football that controls the ball, but more importantly, controls the field position.

Today's game was about ball control and field position. It was the perfect game plan for what was needed today. Kubiak deserves congratulations for preparing this team to win at home.

retro
01-24-2016, 09:50 PM
This is exactly right. People are missing the point. You coach the team you have, not the team you wished you had. Kubiak is playing the hand that he was dealt masterfully. His game plan is designed to maximize the Broncos strengths and minimize its weaknesses. The game plan against the Patriots was perfect.

Some of us that have watched football a long long time know this Taco. We are basically the Ravens when they had Trent Dilfer LMAO.

But until an offense gets 2 scores up on us this is the smart strategy. If we get behind then obviously he will have to open it up.

Going to be a tough tough game stopping Newton.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 09:51 PM
A perfect example was that challenge call at the end. Whiners in the game thread were calling out Kubiak for "wasting a time out," being too blind themselves to understand that the Broncos wanted/needed that time out in the first place, and using a challenge would serve to extend that time out from a 30 second time out to one that lasted at least a minute or more. It was a great move, and it paid off. Did those whiners step up then to give Kubiak credit? Of course they didn't. They were too busy "being right" about Kubiak to stop and give him his due.

retro
01-24-2016, 09:58 PM
A perfect example was that challenge call at the end. Whiners in the game thread were calling out Kubiak for "wasting a time out," being too blind themselves to understand that the Broncos wanted/needed that time out in the first place, and using a challenge would serve to extend that time out from a 30 second time out to one that lasted at least a minute or more. It was a great move, and it paid off. Did those whiners step up then to give Kubiak credit? Of course they didn't. They were too busy "being right" about Kubiak to stop and give him his due.

When he did that I though well maybe the defense was tired, or they wanted to talk about a few things. I don't second guess men who have forgotten more about football then i will ever know.

BroncoFox
01-24-2016, 10:01 PM
My issue is stubbornness. They often had 8 in the box.. on first down (because they knew by that point.. 1st down = run), and we still ran it! And get stuffed for either no gain or a loss (tho he once got 3 yards and I was stunned).

I often doubt that Peyton has much leeway in changing the playcall. I felt several times it would make sense.. box is loaded.. Hillman has been awful.. and normally Manning would spot that istantly and audible to punish the defense for their silliness. Not so.. we still stubbornly run it.

It's not THAT risky to run a quick slant or a fast short pass.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 10:21 PM
My issue is stubbornness. They often had 8 in the box.. on first down (because they knew by that point.. 1st down = run), and we still ran it! And get stuffed for either no gain or a loss (tho he once got 3 yards and I was stunned).

I often doubt that Peyton has much leeway in changing the playcall. I felt several times it would make sense.. box is loaded.. Hillman has been awful.. and normally Manning would spot that istantly and audible to punish the defense for their silliness. Not so.. we still stubbornly run it.

It's not THAT risky to run a quick slant or a fast short pass.

Have you seen this offense this year? Peyton Manning was beat only by Blake Bortles in interceptions. Why should Kubiak risk an unecessary turnover. I don't really care if people find it boring and predictable. Kubiak is coaching to win and the recipe is settled: control the ball, control field position, and pin the defenses ears back and force the other guys to make a play.

This offense plays it safe, but takes its shots. We're having a whole different discussion about Kubiak's game plan on this forum if Peyton and Norwood connect on that endzone shot.

I understand that Kubiak is going to get complaints because Denver loves its quarterback play, but Kubiak is not the weak link here. Not by a mile. It's just the opposite. Kubiak has this thing dialed in. You don't get to the Superbowl by accident. Kubiak's Broncos are hard to beat.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-24-2016, 10:26 PM
A perfect example was that challenge call at the end. Whiners in the game thread were calling out Kubiak for "wasting a time out," being too blind themselves to understand that the Broncos wanted/needed that time out in the first place, and using a challenge would serve to extend that time out from a 30 second time out to one that lasted at least a minute or more. It was a great move, and it paid off. Did those whiners step up then to give Kubiak credit? Of course they didn't. They were too busy "being right" about Kubiak to stop and give him his due.

Ummmm was that his intent or are you just assuming it is?

Taco John
01-24-2016, 10:28 PM
Ummmm was that his intent or are you just assuming it is?

Of course it was his intent. They were going for two. We're going to call a time out there, and suddenly there's a question about the play? It's a no brainer.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-24-2016, 10:29 PM
Of course it was his intent. They were going for two. We're going to call a time out there, and suddenly there's a question about the play? It's a no brainer.

I want proof that's his intent.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 10:30 PM
It just blows my mind how many people just simply refuse to give Kubiak any amount of credit for the great job he's done this year.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-24-2016, 10:31 PM
It just blows my mind how many people just simply refuse to give Kubiak any amount of credit for the great job he's done this year.

I'm giving him credit and criticizing him. He's instilled a great attitude in the team and has remained patient. But I still think he gets too conservative at times.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 10:32 PM
I'm giving him credit and criticizing him. He's instilled a great attitude in the team and has remained patient. But I still think he gets too conservative at times.

You'd be conservative too if you had this offensive line.

24champ
01-24-2016, 10:39 PM
It just blows my mind how many people just simply refuse to give Kubiak any amount of credit for the great job he's done this year.

I'm surprised you waste your time arguing with those that don't like Kubiak. Some panned the hire from day one, simply because it represents going back to the Shanny era.

Bottom line is, this team is one game away from winning a title. I don't really care anymore about who the QB is, how many yards were thrown etc. I just want to see the Broncos hoist the Lombardi again. Who gives a **** how they win it, as long as they win it.

SureShot
01-24-2016, 10:40 PM
I want proof that's his intent.

Really?

Cito Pelon
01-24-2016, 10:47 PM
I'm surprised you waste your time arguing with those that don't like Kubiak. Some panned the hire from day one, simply because it represents going back to the Shanny era.

Bottom line is, this team is one game away from winning a title. I don't really care anymore about who the QB is, how many yards were thrown etc. I just want to see the Broncos hoist the Lombardi again. Who gives a **** how they win it, as long as they win it.

Denver is in it, sure, but there has to be a worry can they score more than 20-24 points. Sure worries me.

TomServo
01-24-2016, 10:55 PM
Holy crap, were in the SB with a broken down old qb that usually cant get out of his own way to avoid a sack. a W is a W,in the AFCCG! this team did it with defense and one turnover. How did that last high flying high powered offense do in our last SB?

Powderaddict
01-24-2016, 11:05 PM
Holy crap, were in the SB with a broken down old qb that usually cant get out of his own way to avoid a sack. a W is a W,in the AFCCG! this team did it with defense and one turnover. How did that last high flying high powered offense do in our last SB?

No kidding. It's amazing to me when you see Manning missing open guys, getting self sacked and the passing game being pretty ineffective, and their solution is -- more passing?

At least the clock runs on a 2 yard run. On an incomplete it stops. The less amount of time the defense is out there getting tired, the better.

It's worked all season long. We don't have the OL or QB play to be putting the ball in the air a whole ton every game.

Taco John
01-24-2016, 11:07 PM
No kidding. It's amazing to me when you see Manning missing open guys, getting self sacked and the passing game being pretty ineffective, and their solution is -- more passing?

At least the clock runs on a 2 yard run. On an incomplete it stops. The less amount of time the defense is out there getting tired, the better.

It's worked all season long. We don't have the OL or QB play to be putting the ball in the air a whole ton every game.

Passes this game: 32
Runs this game: 30

Agamemnon
01-24-2016, 11:08 PM
I'm surprised you waste your time arguing with those that don't like Kubiak. Some panned the hire from day one, simply because it represents going back to the Shanny era.

Bottom line is, this team is one game away from winning a title. I don't really care anymore about who the QB is, how many yards were thrown etc. I just want to see the Broncos hoist the Lombardi again. Who gives a **** how they win it, as long as they win it.

I supported the hire when it happened. Since it led to Wade being hired I'd still say it worked out. That said, he has sucked as an offensive coach this year. Sucked hard. The overall team attitude, sure you can give him some credit for that, but the offense's struggles are as much on Kubiak as anyone.

Powderaddict
01-24-2016, 11:09 PM
Passes this game: 32
Runs this game: 30

But that led to a sucky 2 point win :(

24champ
01-24-2016, 11:09 PM
Denver is in it, sure, but there has to be a worry can they score more than 20-24 points. Sure worries me.

Why does there have to be a worry? We have the #1 defense and the offense is plenty capable.

Agamemnon
01-24-2016, 11:12 PM
Why does there have to be a worry? We have the #1 defense and the offense is plenty capable.

What are you basing that statement off exactly?

Powderaddict
01-24-2016, 11:12 PM
I supported the hire when it happened. Since it led to Wade being hired I'd still say it worked out. That said, he has sucked as offensive coach this year. Sucked hard.

This is BS.

He's had poor QB play (from Manning and Osweiler), and a loss of talent on the OL.

He's had to make do with the hand he's been dealt. And his team has beaten enough teams to gain home field advantage, and is in the SB.

The results are there. You just can't see the forest for the trees.

Agamemnon
01-24-2016, 11:16 PM
This is BS.

He's had poor QB play (from Manning and Osweiler), and a loss of talent on the OL.

He's had to make do with the hand he's been dealt. And his team has beaten enough teams to gain home field advantage, and is in the SB.

The results are there. You just can't see the forest for the trees.

Osweiler did not play poorly. I stopped reading at that point...

Powderaddict
01-24-2016, 11:20 PM
Osweiler did not play poorly. I stopped reading at that point...

He couldn't read a defense. He wasn't scoring any more points as the QB than Manning.

He's young, so that's not necessarily a knock. You can ignore his fault all you want. Just focus on everything Manning does poorly and ignore what he can do, while focusing on everything Os can do while ignoring his faults. It's what you do.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-24-2016, 11:20 PM
Really?

Yes, really. If that was his intent, I give him all the credit in the world. But I'd like proof of it

TomServo
01-25-2016, 01:12 AM
What a time to be a sports fan in denver. The Avs are exciting and Winning. Dont ask me @ the Nuggets i dont know. The Rockies have never lost 100 so they have that going for them. Just saying God Bless Pat Bowlen.

retro
01-25-2016, 01:12 AM
Is it just me or do we never run the stretch run anymore. All the handoffs seem inside dives. What happened to Manning sprinting out a little further and the RBs threatening the edge a bit more?

Is our Oline just not capable, Manning to slow to get out there?

fontaine
01-25-2016, 01:20 AM
Have you seen this offense this year? Peyton Manning was beat only by Blake Bortles in interceptions. Why should Kubiak risk an unecessary turnover. I don't really care if people find it boring and predictable. Kubiak is coaching to win and the recipe is settled: control the ball, control field position, and pin the defenses ears back and force the other guys to make a play.

This is such bull crap.

If Kubiak thinks Peyton is at great risk of throwing ints then why is he starting? Why pass the ball 30 times a game? None of what you just said makes any logical sense.

The team scored 3 points in the 2nd half and it was the running game that was killing drives. Running off tackle, toss/sweep plays, stretch zone, all those plays are what worked better for us this year. But that doesn't work when the LBers have zero depth since they know the run is coming.

Kubiak is trying to run an execution based run game when he simply doesn't have the OL/Run game to do it.

Taco John
01-25-2016, 01:34 AM
Kubiak is trying to run an execution based run game when he simply doesn't have the OL/Run game to do it.

Yes. Exatly. So he does what he can to maximize team strength and minimize team weakness. The results speak for themselves...

Fitzy47
01-25-2016, 01:55 AM
I don't care what anyone says about Kubiak. A first year head coach who doesn't even have a roster with guys who fit his system just brought his team to the Super Bowl.

I've said it before, and I will stick to it: This team doesn't make the playoffs with Fox (and if so, a very quick one and done in the Wild Card round). Not with the level of QB and O-line play we have had to endure. Credit the D for bringing it all year, but at some point you have to credit the coach for keeping the team united, focused, and prepared every game.

Fitzy47
01-25-2016, 02:12 AM
As for the O totally turtling in the second half, you do realize that we played against perhaps the greatest coach ever at making halftime defensive adjustments?

We missed a key play to Norwood. Thomas was a complete no show. Missed Sanders deep when he made an unnecessary stutter step. Missing these deep shots helped the Pats play up in the box taking away running lanes. We need to hit those shots next game.

Saying that we need to play a complete game on offense for the Super Bowl might be the understatement of the year.

gyldenlove
01-25-2016, 02:35 AM
This is such bull crap.

If Kubiak thinks Peyton is at great risk of throwing ints then why is he starting? Why pass the ball 30 times a game? None of what you just said makes any logical sense.

The team scored 3 points in the 2nd half and it was the running game that was killing drives. Running off tackle, toss/sweep plays, stretch zone, all those plays are what worked better for us this year. But that doesn't work when the LBers have zero depth since they know the run is coming.

Kubiak is trying to run an execution based run game when he simply doesn't have the OL/Run game to do it.

Clearly earlier in the year Peyton WAS provably at great risk of throwing INTs, he was throwing them at by far the highest rate in the league and he was starting every game. It doesn't make logical sense, but it provably happened so clearly it is something Kubiak either doesn't care about or something he does care about but was unable to do anything about as a head coach.

gyldenlove
01-25-2016, 02:36 AM
Ummmm was that his intent or are you just assuming it is?

That challenge was a no-risk play. You get a time-out, there are 30 seconds left where you can use that challenge, after those 30 seconds it is not going to be useful anymore so you risk nothing if you lose it. If you win it, you get the turnover. That was a very well-calculated play on his part.

Gort
01-25-2016, 03:29 AM
Clearly earlier in the year Peyton WAS provably at great risk of throwing INTs, he was throwing them at by far the highest rate in the league and he was starting every game. It doesn't make logical sense, but it provably happened so clearly it is something Kubiak either doesn't care about or something he does care about but was unable to do anything about as a head coach.

i was as frustrated by those turnovers as every other fan, but i think a lot of those turnovers had to do with Manning's injuries. he had shoulder, ribcage, and foot problems at various times during the first 9 games. since he's been back (2nd half of SD game, PIT playoff game, NE AFCCG), he's thrown 0 INTs. part of this is for sure Kubiak's conservative approach to playcalling, but part of this must also be the fact that he can now throw without his mechanics being affected by those injuries.

barryr
01-25-2016, 05:26 AM
I don't care what anyone says about Kubiak. A first year head coach who doesn't even have a roster with guys who fit his system just brought his team to the Super Bowl.

I've said it before, and I will stick to it: This team doesn't make the playoffs with Fox (and if so, a very quick one and done in the Wild Card round). Not with the level of QB and O-line play we have had to endure. Credit the D for bringing it all year, but at some point you have to credit the coach for keeping the team united, focused, and prepared every game.

So true. It is odd so many think Kubiak is doing a poor job while the team gets to the Super Bowl. No team or coach is perfect. The Broncos did not rely on Elway to beat the Packers in the Super Bowl with his advanced age, so the Broncos are obviously doing the same with Manning.

colonelbeef
01-25-2016, 05:35 AM
I'm sure it's been said a hundred times before in this thread, but the reason that the offense appears to be conservative is because the QB (Manning) is extremely limited physically- he can't throw with velocity, his accuracy is diminished, and he can't go down the field; not to mention that he is as stationary as a human being can be. Dude is a statue.

They are relying on timing patterns and his guile alone, physically Peyton Manning is finished

winstoncup bronco
01-25-2016, 05:45 AM
Of course it was his intent. They were going for two. We're going to call a time out there, and suddenly there's a question about the play? It's a no brainer.

Totally agree here. What was wrong with that call? Gave the defense added time to gather themselves. Not like the Patriots were going to change their playcall because of it.

winstoncup bronco
01-25-2016, 05:51 AM
Have you seen this offense this year? Peyton Manning was beat only by Blake Bortles in interceptions. Why should Kubiak risk an unecessary turnover. I don't really care if people find it boring and predictable. Kubiak is coaching to win and the recipe is settled: control the ball, control field position, and pin the defenses ears back and force the other guys to make a play.

This offense plays it safe, but takes its shots. We're having a whole different discussion about Kubiak's game plan on this forum if Peyton and Norwood connect on that endzone shot.

I understand that Kubiak is going to get complaints because Denver loves its quarterback play, but Kubiak is not the weak link here. Not by a mile. It's just the opposite. Kubiak has this thing dialed in. You don't get to the Superbowl by accident. Kubiak's Broncos are hard to beat.

Totally agree here again.

Kubiak was going conservative, and with an 8 point lead and this defense, no need to take risks when not necessary. We opened up with two TD's in the first half, and handed it over to the defense and played smart football. No turnovers, no stupid penalties. Everytime this team beats a team that was supposed to run them over, there's always a reason why we'll definitely lose the next one.

24champ
01-25-2016, 06:59 AM
What are you basing that statement off exactly?

Did you not see Manning throw deep balls to Sanders and Daniels catching TDs yesterday? Who the hell thought Daniels was getting two freaking TDs prior to the game? Nobody.

TonyR
01-25-2016, 07:21 AM
The play that may have frustrated me the most was the 3rd and half a yard from near mid field that we couldn't convert. Pitch play to Hillman that lost a yard. Brutal.

Gort
01-25-2016, 07:31 AM
The play that may have frustrated me the most was the 3rd and half a yard from near mid field that we couldn't convert. Pitch play to Hillman that lost a yard. Brutal.

wasn't it a pitch to CJ?

a pitch to Hillman is probably the only play in the playbook that is better for Hillman's skillset than CJ's.

TonyR
01-25-2016, 07:33 AM
wasn't it a pitch to CJ?

a pitch to Hillman is probably the only play in the playbook that is better for Hillman's skillset than CJ's.

Yeah, you're right, I think it was CJ. Just sucks that we can't rely on the O-line and go right up the gut and get the 2 feet needed to get a new set of downs and keep the D off the field.

Fitzy47
02-07-2016, 09:07 PM
Ever occur that this offense was conservative to prevent Peyton from losing it with turnovers?

Conservative offense won the turnover battle. It worked. We won.