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View Full Version : Knowshon Moreno vs. the Field


Taco John
02-04-2014, 08:24 PM
To annex the other thread on the Knowshon Moreno situation, I think the question that we face is whether or not there is anyone available who gives us more than Knowshon does. So here's a poll to see what people think of this question...

go_broncos
02-04-2014, 08:30 PM
Moreno is valuable to this offense..He blocks pretty well.
Last year, we could have won the game against Ravens if he was not injured.
Unfortunately, he couldn't contribute in SB.
We need to sign him at any cost.

24champ
02-04-2014, 08:32 PM
I know he's a Raider but Jennings is a tough customer. Runs very hard. Wish the Broncos would go after him.

maven
02-04-2014, 08:33 PM
OP, you are really all about Moreno these days. Anyway, lets see who gets cut. There will be more added to the list.

Taco John
02-04-2014, 08:36 PM
OP, you are really all about Moreno these days. Anyway, lets see who gets cut. There will be more added to the list.

I'm having a hard time finding a more compelling story line this off season. I'm very interested to see what the Broncos do in this position. I'm torn on the question myself, which is why I'm very interested in other people's thoughts.

Nobody that is going to be cut is a better option than Moreno so far as I can tell.

BroncoInferno
02-04-2014, 08:43 PM
The better option is already on the team: Montee Ball. I appreciate Moreno's contributions this season, but by the end of the season it was clear that Ball was the better pure runner. With the offseason to refine his all around skills, I'm looking forward to Ball being the bell cow. Hopefully, Elway will impress on the staff what finally got him to glory...a smash mouth running game. Not saying I expect us to throw it 20 times a game, but 50/50 balance with Ball getting 20 carries a game is what I hope to see. That will help limit the turnover issue and also keep defenses on their heels. If Moreno wants to be the 3rd down back and the market for him is weak, bring him back. Otherwise, time to turn it over to Montee.

extralife
02-04-2014, 08:43 PM
he's better than any of those guys, but he's also more expensive than any of them. and the guy you don't have on that list is the most pertinent one for the Broncos front office: Montee Ball.

DenverBound
02-04-2014, 08:50 PM
The better option is already on the team: Montae Ball. I appreciate Moreno's contributions this season, but by the end of the season it was clear that Ball was the better pure runner. With the offseason to refine his all around skills, I'm looking forward to Ball being the bell cow. Hopefully, Elway will impress on the staff what finally got him to glory...a smash mouth running game. Not saying I expect us to throw it 20 times a game, but 50/50 balance with Ball getting 20 carries a game is what I hope to see. That will help limit the turnover issue and also keep defenses on their heels. If Moreno wants to be the 3rd down back and the market for him is weak, bring him back. Otherwise, time to turn it over to Montae.

Montee*

BroncoInferno
02-04-2014, 08:55 PM
Montee*

Fixed.

whoeey
02-04-2014, 09:00 PM
I'm a fan of Morenos but MJD and Ball/Hillman would be be a dynamic duo. Question is what MJD has in the tanks. I'd also be satisfied if we kept Moreno.

Agamemnon
02-04-2014, 09:01 PM
We don't really need a replacement. I'm perfectly fine with Ball as the primary back with CJ as the secondary option. Of all the guys on that list though I'd go for Gerhart. I think he's a very good runner, but he got drafted by the worst possible team. I still don't get why the Vikings drafted him to be honest.

Agamemnon
02-04-2014, 09:02 PM
I'm a fan of Morenos but MJD and Ball/Hillman would be be a dynamic duo. Question is what MJD has in the tanks. I'd also be satisfied if we kept Moreno.

MJD sucks at this point in his career.

broncocalijohn
02-04-2014, 09:02 PM
I'm having a hard time finding a more compelling story line this off season. I'm very interested to see what the Broncos do in this position. I'm torn on the question myself, which is why I'm very interested in other people's thoughts.

Nobody that is going to be cut is a better option than Moreno so far as I can tell.

I think Moreno's biggest competition is right next to him in Ball. Personally, I would like to see both together at least one more season. Fine tune Ball and also see if Moreno has another good season. I don't want to use a high or medium draft pick on a running back.

maven
02-04-2014, 09:09 PM
MJD sucks at this point in his career.

He's been hurt. Listened to him on the radio the other day and he's finally getting back to healthy(foot). I think the guy is hungry and I wouldn't mind if Denver signed him. He still has some game left in him, and I think he would like to play for a contender.

Throw in Ball with an offseason, Hillman growing some hair on his balls, and CJ I think that would be a heck of a backfield.

Requiem
02-04-2014, 09:12 PM
Too bad Hillman sucks because we need speed.

Agamemnon
02-04-2014, 09:14 PM
He's been hurt. Listened to him on the radio the other day and he's finally getting back to healthy(foot). I think the guy is hungry and I wouldn't mind if Denver signed him. He still has some game left in him, and I think he would like to play for a contender.

Throw in Ball with an offseason, Hillman growing some hair on his balls, and CJ I think that would be a heck of a backfield.

He'll be 29 by the start of next season, and is physically breaking down. Pass.

Agamemnon
02-04-2014, 09:14 PM
Too bad Hillman sucks because we need speed.

Hillman's not even that fast.

BroncoInferno
02-04-2014, 09:15 PM
Too bad Hillman sucks because we need speed.

We don't really need speed. Speed at Rb is overrated. How often do you see RBs break off 60 yar runs? Didn't have that with TD, although Ball similar to TD has deceptive speed.

whoeey
02-04-2014, 09:15 PM
Hillman's not even that fast.

On the field he is! Agility is fast

HAT
02-04-2014, 09:17 PM
No Hillis option?

Agamemnon
02-04-2014, 09:18 PM
On the field he is! Agility is fast

Err...I have literally never seen him make anyone miss so I don't know what agility you are referring to.

Requiem
02-04-2014, 09:23 PM
We don't really need speed. Speed at Rb is overrated. How often do you see RBs break off 60 yar runs? Didn't have that with TD, although Ball similar to TD has deceptive speed.

If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle.

maven
02-04-2014, 09:24 PM
Also, DMAC.

I think a split carry role will help keep him on the field the entire season.

BroncoMan4ever
02-04-2014, 09:28 PM
I'd take Rashad Jennings. Wanted the guy coming out of college and I still do. I like Gerhart's physicality, wanted us to take a shot on Blount late in the draft and would like having him in Denver. I am intrigued by the idea of MJD. Part of me thinks he is done, but there is that itch in the back of my brain that thinks a change of scenery in a place where he is not the only offensive weapon can give him another 2 years of really good production and give us a really good weapon to pair with Ball.

BroncoInferno
02-04-2014, 09:40 PM
If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle.

Not sure how that's relevant to what I said. My point is simply that speed is overrated at Rb. Even a physical freak like Peterson is only going to break off 50+ yard runs a handful of times a season.

Tombstone RJ
02-04-2014, 09:45 PM
I'd have no problem with DMac coming in at a reasonable price. He's like another WR out of the backfield and he's got some speed.

Taco John
02-04-2014, 11:58 PM
I'd have no problem with DMac coming in at a reasonable price. He's like another WR out of the backfield and he's got some speed.

I'm thinking he's one of the few people on that list that I'd want, but really, it's only based on reputation, not any actual productivity he's put up in the last three years. It would be hard to make the argument that he's a better back than Moreno right now. Right now in Raider-land, they talk about the guy as a bust.

All things considered, I'd rather have Jennings.

Castinkas
02-05-2014, 12:00 AM
need a back that can block. need a back that can catch. need a back that's physical. that's Moreno.

Taco John
02-05-2014, 12:02 AM
need a back that can block. need a back that can catch. need a back that's physical. that's Moreno.

Rashad Jennings fits the bill...

Taco John
02-05-2014, 12:04 AM
I think that's my answer. After poking around this question all night, I think the Rashad Jennings is the only back on that list that I'd feel like we'd actually made a potential upgrade over Moreno with.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VyUtN9SdrX0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

errand
02-05-2014, 05:22 AM
I think the real question is do you want to keep it Moreno/Ball or Ball/Hillman.... Because if they get rid of one, they're not going to get rid of the other.

ColoradoDarin
02-05-2014, 05:29 AM
I'm a fan of Morenos but MJD and Ball/Hillman would be be a dynamic duo. Question is what MJD has in the tanks. I'd also be satisfied if we kept Moreno.

This.

I'll take MJD/Ball combo please.

Arkie
02-05-2014, 06:13 AM
MJD will get healthy and win the Comeback Player of the Year Award on a new team.

Smiling Assassin27
02-05-2014, 08:47 AM
Andre Williams from BC.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-05-2014, 09:17 AM
i think Montee Ball is the upgrade. its not that i think we need an upgrade if we get rid of Moreno, i just dont see the value in paying him 4 million dollars.

Breaker
02-05-2014, 09:24 AM
I'm having a hard time finding a more compelling story line this off season. I'm very interested to see what the Broncos do in this position. I'm torn on the question myself, which is why I'm very interested in other people's thoughts.

Nobody that is going to be cut is a better option than Moreno so far as I can tell.

Totally disagree. Moreno and Ball are the same guy, they might break into the second level but they do not have the speed to become a home run threat. That makes safeties able to play back because no matter where they are on the field they can run them down. We need an actual playmaker in the backfield who is a threat to actually take it the distance, which would help pull the safeties up, making the play action more effective. MJD is still a legit back, can do everything we need better than Moreno. Plus he has never won jack....he would most likely sign for cheap.

All in on the next couple years, ALL IN.

Rabb
02-05-2014, 09:25 AM
Moreno and Ball are the same guy

Nope

HELLHAMMER
02-05-2014, 09:26 AM
Hillman's not even that fast. you don't think 4.42 in the 40 is fast. You got some high standards.

Breaker
02-05-2014, 09:42 AM
Nope

Moreno Ball
Height 5'11 5'10
Weight 217 214
40 4.62 4.66
Bench 25 22
Vertical 25.5 32
Broad 115 118
3 Cone 6.84 6.88
20 Shuttle 4.27 4.40
60 Shuttle 11.63 Didn't run

Try again

Rabb
02-05-2014, 09:43 AM
lol, great rebuttal...that doesn't make them the same back

Taco John
02-05-2014, 09:45 AM
I don't agree that they're the same back, but I also didn't see anything from Ball this year that would indicate to me he is a game changing back.

Powderaddict
02-05-2014, 09:50 AM
I don't agree that they're the same back, but I also didn't see anything from Ball this year that would indicate to me he is a game changing back.

He progressed quite a bit as the year went on, broke quite a few tackles, improved as a blocker, and had some really nice runs.

If he's hit his ceiling, right now he's a nice back to have as part of a rotation. If he can continue to improve, he can be a weapon.

Rabb
02-05-2014, 09:54 AM
I don't agree that they're the same back, but I also didn't see anything from Ball this year that would indicate to me he is a game changing back.

Yep

Breaker
02-05-2014, 09:58 AM
lol, great rebuttal...that doesn't make them the same back

My rebuttal is based in fact, yours is just "nope" with absolutely no evidence of any sort, so please .. tell me how they are so different other than Moreno is a slightly better receiver and Ball has a little more power.

go_broncos
02-05-2014, 10:01 AM
I don't agree that they're the same back, but I also didn't see anything from Ball this year that would indicate to me he is a game changing back.

He improved a lot..But, he is not Lacy.
We need to sign Moreno..

Gutless Drunk
02-05-2014, 10:03 AM
Ball is a "natural runner" You either have it or you don't. His vision far exceeds Morenos. He has the nuances of a true running back. Stutter steps, shoulder dips that get you an extra 4 yards, etc.

Generally speaking Moreno will get you what the play is blocked for.

They are not the same back.

OldschoolFreak
02-05-2014, 10:10 AM
We don't really need a replacement. I'm perfectly fine with Ball as the primary back with CJ as the secondary option. Of all the guys on that list though I'd go for Gerhart. I think he's a very good runner, but he got drafted by the worst possible team. I still don't get why the Vikings drafted him to be honest.

I agree with this. Don't waste precious cap space on a big name (and old!) MJD or DMC. CJ showed a ton of promise everytime he touched the ball. Also, the thing to keep in mind is what we lose with Moreno leaving. Ball is clearly hte better bellcow back at this point. Where Moreno was really valuable was as a third down back because of his blocking and pass catching. I don't know about Gerhart's hands as a receiver but he seems like the kind of mauler that can keep #18 clean.

Breaker
02-05-2014, 10:15 AM
Ball is a "natural runner" You either have it or you don't. His vision far exceeds Morenos. He has the nuances of a true running back. Stutter steps, shoulder dips that get you an extra 4 yards, etc.

Generally speaking Moreno will get you what the play is blocked for.

They are not the same back.

How are they not the same back. Ball has half the carries, half the yards; almost the same exact yds/att and half the TD's. If you extrapolate Ball's stats over the same number of carries they are almost identical. You can say that Ball has better vision, stutter steps, etc, but the proof is in the stats. There is nothing based in the stats nor the combine stats that indicates he is anything more than Moreno part II. Ball is not a game changing, factor back who will make defenses be HONEST in playing defense because he will not scare anyone.

Player Att Yds Yds/Att Long TD
Knowshon Moreno 241 1038 4.3 31 10
Montee Ball 120 559 4.7 45 4

OldschoolFreak
02-05-2014, 10:17 AM
I don't agree that they're the same back, but I also didn't see anything from Ball this year that would indicate to me he is a game changing back.

I don't think we need a traditional game changing back with breakaway speed.

To me the much more important thing is staying on schedule. I like that Ball was turning 6 yard runs out of hits in the backfield where Moreno gains 1 or two. I want our starter to be able to grind out a 2nd and 3 regularly even when the D knows we're running. Manning provides the homerun ball.

I think the biggest loss with 27 leaving is his non-running contributions. I don't know Jennings much but based on how you describe his skillset above, that sounds like a good fit to me.

OldschoolFreak
02-05-2014, 10:20 AM
Player Att Yds Yds/Att Long TD
Knowshon Moreno 241 1038 4.3 31 10
Montee Ball 120 559 4.7 45 4


That .4 YPC difference is significant. But again, why does everyone think we need a home run threat? Keeping the D honest by pulling the safeties up to open up the pass? Isn't that type of situational-only running the same thing that got us labelled as soft?

No, what we need is a smashmouth grinder that gets rushing first downs no matter how many defenders stack the box.

Gutless Drunk
02-05-2014, 10:24 AM
How are they not the same back. Ball has half the carries, half the yards; almost the same exact yds/att and half the TD's. If you extrapolate Ball's stats over the same number of carries they are almost identical. You can say that Ball has better vision, stutter steps, etc, but the proof is in the stats. There is nothing based in the stats nor the combine stats that indicates he is anything more than Moreno part II. Ball is not a game changing, factor back who will make defenses be HONEST in playing defense because he will not scare anyone.

Player Att Yds Yds/Att Long TD
Knowshon Moreno 241 1038 4.3 31 10
Montee Ball 120 559 4.7 45 4

Because he was a rookie, who admittedly, had no idea what the **** he was doing for the first half of the year.

First 8 games - average 2.36 per carry
games 9-16 - average 5.25 per carry

I didn't say he was necessarily a "factor back" He is just not Moreno because their measurables are similar.

LeSean McCoy rookie season - 155 carries 637 yards 4.1 per carry 4 TDs
Montee Ball rookie season - 120 carries 559 yards 4.7 per carry 4 TDs

yerner
02-05-2014, 10:24 AM
We should have just waited a year and drafted Carey. That dude will make Montee look super ordinary. I love Seastrunk too. Too eager to get a back last year I think.

Breaker
02-05-2014, 10:26 AM
I agree with this. Don't waste precious cap space on a big name (and old!) MJD or DMC. CJ showed a ton of promise everytime he touched the ball. Also, the thing to keep in mind is what we lose with Moreno leaving. Ball is clearly hte better bellcow back at this point. Where Moreno was really valuable was as a third down back because of his blocking and pass catching. I don't know about Gerhart's hands as a receiver but he seems like the kind of mauler that can keep #18 clean.

MJD is going to be 29 at the beginning of next year which is two years older than Moreno, that is not old. He played with one of the worst offensive lines in football still averaged 3.4 a carry, had 804 yards on 234 carries, is an exception pass blocker, has game breaking speed still ( 5 carries of 20 + and 2 of 40 +) and is one of the best receivers out of the backfield. He got robbed of 2012 due to the injury and played on a bad team this year. You wont have to break the bank in order to sign him because he wants to actually play for a winning team for a change. MJD will leave Jacksonville and be the Comeback Player of the Year.

Rabb
02-05-2014, 10:31 AM
You are basing your argument off stats. Their running styles are clearly different, but what do I know...I only used the eye test.

To me, Ball seems like more of a smash mouth, one cut runner that goes downhill. Moreno has always been a little "dancey" although I will admit he's been better, and while he can get the tough yards he just doesn't seem as powerful.

I'd give the edge to both receiving and blocking right now to Moreno. But they aren't the same backs, I don't think it's even close. I also am not convinced Ball is the #1 yet either.

So there, more than a "nope" and you're still wrong.

OldschoolFreak
02-05-2014, 10:36 AM
not to be a downer but I wonder how many other teams sat here in our position being the SB losers and trying to figure this out and then the saying comes true about the SB losers don't even make the playoffs....sorry but it had to be said cause well its happened more then not

Those teams don't have PMFM.

Rabb
02-05-2014, 10:41 AM
what the **** is going on right now?

Powderaddict
02-05-2014, 10:46 AM
what the **** is going on right now?

Luigi's girlfriend showed up.

ludo21
02-05-2014, 10:46 AM
Ball should be ready year 2 protection wise.

But we need a guy who can run the screens and pass catch like Moreno, I do not trust Ball as a pass cather out of the backfield.

go_broncos
02-05-2014, 10:47 AM
Ball should be ready year 2 protection wise.

But we need a guy who can run the screens and pass catch like Moreno, I do not trust Ball as a pass cather out of the backfield.

I agree..without Moreno, we would not have won.

Houshyamama
02-05-2014, 10:52 AM
I'm all for bringing Moreno back, and I selected the last option in the poll, but I think it will come down to an issue of value, rather than who is the best back on the list.

What price will he command on the FA market, and can we get better value elsewhere?

broncosteven
02-05-2014, 10:56 AM
If CJ Anderson and maybe even JJ were added to the Poll I might vote in it.

El Guapo
02-05-2014, 11:01 AM
Beat me to it. I was going to mention CJ. /thread

DENVERDUI55
02-05-2014, 11:46 AM
Beat me to it. I was going to mention CJ. /thread

CJ does deserve some carries. Everytime he touches the ball he gains positive yards. Granted it has been in a handful of carries but he does look pretty good when given the chance.

Tombstone RJ
02-05-2014, 11:53 AM
I'm thinking he's one of the few people on that list that I'd want, but really, it's only based on reputation, not any actual productivity he's put up in the last three years. It would be hard to make the argument that he's a better back than Moreno right now. Right now in Raider-land, they talk about the guy as a bust.

All things considered, I'd rather have Jennings.

I like Jennings too. I just think the McFadden has been seriously misused by the faiders. He needs to operate out of a single back set much like TD did with the Broncos. He used to be explosive and deceivingly fast, he reminded me a lot of Marcus Allen when running. He's got fantastic hands too.

Taco John
02-05-2014, 11:56 AM
not to be a downer but I wonder how many other teams sat here in our position being the SB losers and trying to figure this out and then the saying comes true about the SB losers don't even make the playoffs....sorry but it had to be said cause well its happened more then not

There's a reason for that and we should all be very concerned about it. The Broncos are going into this season with a huge target on their backs. They're going to get everybody's absolute A-game because 1) they were a Superbowl team and 2) they were blown out. Teams are already circling this game on their calendars. If we make it back to the Superbowl, it will be absolutely remarkable.

ZONA
02-05-2014, 11:59 AM
Too bad Hillman sucks because we need speed.

That's my angle on this. If you're looking at Ball as your #1 guy next year, because let's face it, Moreno will get more dollars and we honestly need that for other players right now. And of your 2 main RB's, they should be a little different then each other. One the tough runner who is also good around the goal line and can block, the other a more dynamic and faster threat. I love what Moreno has done this year and if the dollars were right I would be thrilled to have him back. I just don't think that's going to work out in our favor. We know Hillman is done. He's a speed guy but not very shifty and not great ball security either.

I like what Donald Brown did this year. He's a very smart, fast and shifty runner and would be a great combo with Ball. I also like Carey out of Arizona. For a smaller faster shifty guy, he runs with a tough style and has great ball security. He'd be a great pair with Ball.

I think CJ will get his chances too.

Powderaddict
02-05-2014, 12:30 PM
There's a reason for that and we should all be very concerned about it. The Broncos are going into this season with a huge target on their backs. They're going to get everybody's absolute A-game because 1) they were a Superbowl team and 2) they were blown out. Teams are already circling this game on their calendars. If we make it back to the Superbowl, it will be absolutely remarkable.

If the Broncos make it back before 2030 they will be over represented, according to the law of averages.

Making the Superbowl is an absolutely remarkable feat. It is rare. It means you beat some very good competition, and probably had a little luck go your way.

Which is why when they lose so badly, it is so painful, so disheartening. Because it is so rare.

Requiem
02-05-2014, 12:35 PM
Chrissy Rules vs. the Field? I take the field.

spiralism
02-06-2014, 09:44 PM
Moreno is the best option there. MJD is old, DMAC is a crock and Johnson will want ridiculous money.

Castinkas
02-06-2014, 10:20 PM
I think the biggest factor in determining if we sign any of these backs will be the price of doing so. There is a lot of quality backs on that list.

eddie mac
02-07-2014, 02:16 AM
There's a reason for that and we should all be very concerned about it. The Broncos are going into this season with a huge target on their backs. They're going to get everybody's absolute A-game because 1) they were a Superbowl team and 2) they were blown out. Teams are already circling this game on their calendars. If we make it back to the Superbowl, it will be absolutely remarkable.

Didn't hurt the 49ers albeit they weren't blown out. I think it works 2 ways. We lost a game we were expected to win in 2012/13 and came back firing last season. I honestly think we'll do the same again next season. Look at what we did to Baltimore in that first game this year.

extralife
02-07-2014, 04:36 AM
Didn't hurt the 49ers albeit they weren't blown out. I think it works 2 ways. We lost a game we were expected to win in 2012/13 and came back firing last season. I honestly think we'll do the same again next season. Look at what we did to Baltimore in that first game this year.

the difference is that Baltimore team wasn't all that great to begin with and then lost about ten players in the offseason. the seahawks? not so much.

jmz313
02-07-2014, 05:43 AM
I like Jennings and Andre Brown. I'm not very sure we'll get a shot at Jennings as Dmac is probably done there and even the raiders aren't dumb enough to let Jennings walk.

Brown would be a cheap sign, if he wants to come back here. he has game breaker speed and definitely looks like he could be a good RB in his past appearances.

I think the bigger issue to be addressed in the running game is scheme and commitment. I know it works for mannings style (an ankle injury) but playing 98% of the time out of the Shotgun(mostly/pistol) really limits options.

I would personally like to see our 2 TE Set evolved and built up to our primary look.

Irish Stout
02-07-2014, 11:07 AM
I really like Ben Tate and think he is a #1 if he is on any team other than behind Foster or AP.

That being said, I really like the way Moreno played this year. A little O-line tweaking could really help open up his game.

Sly_Eli
02-07-2014, 11:40 AM
I'll take Moneyball and CJ anderson

Arkie
02-07-2014, 12:26 PM
Montee Ball is the fourth-most consistent RB as measured by his Success Rate (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb) or Running Back Batting Average.
Moreno is 14th.

The basic formula:

In general, a play counts as a "hit" if it gains 40% of yards on first down, 60% of yards on second down, and 100% of yards on third down.
If the team is behind by more than a touchdown in the fourth quarter, the benchmarks switch to 50%/65%/100%.
If the team is ahead by any amount in the fourth quarter, the benchmarks switch to 30%/50%/100%.

The 2237 word explanation: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2004/introducing-running-back-success-rate

We need a home run threat to go with Ball.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
02-07-2014, 01:02 PM
I'd say all of them because all the other RB's has had to run against 7-8 man boxes. Sorry I love ya, but life is just easier playing for Manning.