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TonyR
11-05-2013, 09:58 AM
The conservatives who control the board have neutered the teachers union, prodded neighborhood elementary schools to compete with one another for market share, directed tax money to pay for religious education and imposed a novel pay scale that values teachers by their subjects, so a young man teaching algebra to eighth graders can make $20,000 a year more than a colleague teaching world history down the hall. Conservatives across the US see Douglas County as a model for transforming public schools everywhere. http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/koch-group-unions-battle-over-colorado-schools-race-99252.html#ixzz2jhLzYbSy

Garcia Bronco
11-05-2013, 11:23 AM
Math teachers should be paid the most for the simple reason that Math is universal. A prime number in China is the same as a Prime number here.

Bronco Yoda
11-05-2013, 11:48 AM
Sounds like their doing good things over there. Let's face it. The educational system isn't working. We're falling behind the rest of the world. I applaud trying something new. shake up the system.

On a totally different angle to this subject. I bet this is also changing the landscape of the real estate market.

Rohirrim
11-05-2013, 11:49 AM
The Koch Bros. again. "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" ;D

I find it counter-productive to put people who are opposed to science in charge of education.

Garcia Bronco
11-05-2013, 11:51 AM
I'd bet you are right.

We're falling behind the rest of the world because we do not put the onus on the student. We nanny them too much and they grow up in many cases untested. We cater to the lowest-common denominator and I thank God everyday that I was blessed enough to get an education at a private school.

Garcia Bronco
11-05-2013, 11:55 AM
The Koch Bros. again. "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" ;D

I find it counter-productive to put people who are opposed to science in charge of education.


I find that "science", like religion, is something people use to support their argument in the moment. If you truly believe in "Science" then you must acknowledge that many of our social programs violate the study of human behavior, which is a subset of biology.

Rohirrim
11-05-2013, 12:33 PM
I find that "science", like religion, is something people use to support their argument in the moment. If you truly believe in "Science" then you must acknowledge that many of our social programs violate the study of human behavior, which is a subset of biology.

I meant specifically that the Koch Bros. are doing everything in their power to squash hard core, scientific evidence of global climate change while simultaneously purporting to stand for better education. It's complete and total bull****. What the Koch Bros. want is stupid people they can manipulate. They don't want "better" education. They want ideological education. Big difference. They know that anybody with even marginal critical thinking skills would throw their asses in prison.

Pony Boy
11-05-2013, 12:34 PM
The conservatives who control the board have neutered the teachers union

Awesome, this is a good start.

Requiem
11-05-2013, 12:41 PM
I find that "science", like religion, is something people use to support their argument in the moment. If you truly believe in "Science" then you must acknowledge that many of our social programs violate the study of human behavior, which is a subset of biology.

They have disciplines dedicated entirely to studying human behavior.

BroncoBeavis
11-05-2013, 12:45 PM
I meant specifically that the Koch Bros. are doing everything in their power to squash hard core, scientific evidence of global climate change while simultaneously purporting to stand for better education. It's complete and total bull****. What the Koch Bros. want is stupid people they can manipulate. They don't want "better" education. They want ideological education. Big difference. They know that anybody with even marginal critical thinking skills would throw their asses in prison.

Hilarious you make the "politicized education" argument and then hinge it all on Global Warming. LOL

You know, as a nation, we'd be far better off if our average kid new more about calculus than the latest Green flavor du jour.

Like I've said before... the fact that national teachers' unions have pro-abortion language in their platforms tells you everything you need to know about their educational goals.

Bronco Yoda
11-05-2013, 01:05 PM
Back to the lefty vs. righty thing again when it should be about our children. It never ends.

Requiem
11-05-2013, 01:08 PM
Back to the lefty vs. righty thing again when it should be about our children. It never ends.

:thumbsup:

Pony Boy
11-05-2013, 01:16 PM
Math teachers should be paid the most for the simple reason that Math is universal. A prime number in China is the same as a Prime number here.

We all know the Head Football Coach (also the DriversEd instructor) will always make more than the Art teacher, it's just a matter of priorities.

BroncoBeavis
11-05-2013, 01:24 PM
Back to the lefty vs. righty thing again when it should be about our children. It never ends.

It started as a lefty vs righty thing. They tipped that hand with language like "neutered" :)

In most circles, paying a teacher in an in-demand field more than one in another field of their own choosing isn't in any way controversial.

Rohirrim
11-05-2013, 02:11 PM
Is it so much lefty/righty as it is the free market religion vs. critical thinking?

We should let the market decide which subjects are most important for our children to learn? Really? Why? Because the end product is to produce good worker drones? Jefferson thought that every school day should begin with an hour of music. WTF was he thinking? Music is worthless.

Pony Boy
11-05-2013, 02:20 PM
Is it so much lefty/righty as it is the free market religion vs. critical thinking?

We should let the market decide which subjects are most important for our children to learn? Really? Why? Because the end product is to produce good worker drones? Jefferson thought that every school day should begin with an hour of music. WTF was he thinking? Music is worthless.

Not a bad idea to have an hour of music everyday but why does it have to be at school?

BroncoBeavis
11-05-2013, 02:38 PM
Is it so much lefty/righty as it is the free market religion vs. critical thinking?

We should let the market decide which subjects are most important for our children to learn? Really? Why? Because the end product is to produce good worker drones? Jefferson thought that every school day should begin with an hour of music. WTF was he thinking? Music is worthless.

Ahh, you just can't separate your mind from that central-planning paradigm that's been proven time and again not to work.

Don't think of it as 'the market' deciding. You've loaded that phrase with subliminal meanings that aren't there.

Think of 'the market' as just parents. Who 90% of the time will make much better decisions for the children they love than a disinterested bureaucrat whose top two main concerns are politics and job security.

I might be inclined to send my kids to an hour of music a day. Or maybe one kid who's really into music, and then something different for the one who's more into art?

Let the parents decide which priorities they want their kids invested in. If all those newly minted music and art kids start tearing up the world, the world will follow.

Sure, it leave less one-size-fits-all indoctrination time for the State. But I think you said something unflattering about drones earlier. And I don't think a voter drone is necessarily any more valuable than a worker drone.

Garcia Bronco
11-05-2013, 02:47 PM
They have disciplines dedicated entirely to studying human behavior.

I know...I have a BS in it. :)

My statement up there was poorly worded. It should have read "disregard the results of human behavior studies." Psychology is not a hard science though. It's a mixture of all 3 of the hard sciences, but it's typically defined under biology. It could become a hard science one day, but we have a long way to go.

Requiem
11-05-2013, 02:51 PM
I wasn't talking about Psychology.

Rohirrim
11-05-2013, 03:00 PM
Ahh, you just can't separate your mind from that central-planning paradigm that's been proven time and again not to work.

Don't think of it as 'the market' deciding. You've loaded that phrase with subliminal meanings that aren't there.

Think of 'the market' as just parents. Who 90% of the time will make much better decisions for the children they love than a disinterested bureaucrat whose top two main concerns are politics and job security.

I might be inclined to send my kids to an hour of music a day. Or maybe one kid who's really into music, and then something different for the one who's more into art?

Let the parents decide which priorities they want their kids invested in. If all those newly minted music and art kids start tearing up the world, the world will follow.

Sure, it leave less one-size-fits-all indoctrination time for the State. But I think you said something unflattering about drones earlier. And I don't think a voter drone is necessarily any more valuable than a worker drone.

Yeah. And what if the parents decide that Creationism is the most important subject?

You are completely incapable of following a point. I said nothing about central-planning. I said nothing about turning everybody into art students. I said nothing about state indoctrination. You are the ****ing king of straw men around here. No matter what anybody says, you just make **** up and go off on a tangent. Obviously, your education was sorely lacking in critical thinking skills and is an excellent example of what I am talking about.

Going back to the first civilizations, education has been a primary topic of philosophy. Given the Athenians precarious situation, they should have taught their children about nothing but war. They didn't, and their impact on civilization has been felt far beyond that of the Spartans, who did.

Education is intrinsically critical to the long term survival of any human society. It should transcend temporary politics. To think that some petty ideologue with some short term parochial interests should sit on some school board, deciding the curriculum and reading material of students is pathetic. Is the purpose of education to create job fillers? Only if the purpose of life is to fill a job. I would prefer America spend its money to educate more Jeffersons, not more Koch Brothers.

TonyR
11-05-2013, 03:01 PM
Math teachers should be paid the most for the simple reason that Math is universal. A prime number in China is the same as a Prime number here.

There is some disagreement on this...

http://garyrubinstein.teachforus.org/2013/10/19/death-of-math/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/22/AR2010102205451.html?nav=hcmoduletmv

orinjkrush
11-05-2013, 03:09 PM
ultimately, the value of math and science is because it helps make stuff that can be owned and sold.

the value of the social "sciences" is that they help you not do to your children what your parents did to you.

obviously, it is more important to own stuff.

Rohirrim
11-05-2013, 03:13 PM
There is some disagreement on this...

http://garyrubinstein.teachforus.org/2013/10/19/death-of-math/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/22/AR2010102205451.html?nav=hcmoduletmv

Good articles. I think everybody should get a solid foundation in geometry and trig, but it probably makes sense for the the more advanced stuff to made elective.

Requiem
11-05-2013, 03:16 PM
I was great at math, but hated it.

BroncoBeavis
11-05-2013, 03:27 PM
Yeah. And what if the parents decide that Creationism is the most important subject?

Then they're probably already being homeschooled. That whole choice thing bugs you, doesn't it.

You are completely incapable of following a point. I said nothing about central-planning. I said nothing about turning everybody into art students. I said nothing about state indoctrination. You are the ****ing king of straw men around here. No matter what anybody says, you just make **** up and go off on a tangent. Obviously, your education was sorely lacking in critical thinking skills and is an excellent example of what I am talking about.

Sorry, but you can't easily separate "What are you going to just let the market (parents) decide?" from a hard sell on central planning. Unless you're taking the anarchist angle? Signs point to no. And I didn't say you said anything about art students. I said why not? Parents deciding for (and with) their Children will produce greater aggregate results. Especially in the areas where the Child's gifts direct him/her.

Going back to the first civilizations, education has been a primary topic of philosophy. Given the Athenians precarious situation, they should have taught their children about nothing but war. They didn't, and their impact on civilization has been felt far beyond that of the Spartans, who did.

Education is intrinsically critical to the long term survival of any human society. It should transcend temporary politics. To think that some petty ideologue with some short term parochial interests should sit on some school board, deciding the curriculum and reading material of students is pathetic. Is the purpose of education to create job fillers? Only if the purpose of life is to fill a job. I would prefer America spend its money to educate more Jeffersons, not more Koch Brothers.

I don't think we're here to debate the use of public resources on education. Only on how those resources are best directed. The usual "DC Trial Lawyer" solution is (as usual) the least optimal one can imagine.

"I don't like Churchy McChurch making any decisions for those kids in his town he knows (but I don't). So instead, let's let Joe Biden decide!"

Real education should encourage self-guided discovery and pursuit of varied interests. And yet here you are arguing that Children in a vigorous and free democracy should be shielded most from learning that which the Political Patriarchy deems distasteful.

W*GS
11-05-2013, 03:53 PM
The Whole People must take \upon/ themselvs the Education of the Whole People and must be willing to bear the expences of it. there should not be a district of one Mile square without a school in it, not founded by a Charitable individual but maintained at the expence of the People themselv[s]
-- John Adams to John Jebb, 10 Sep. 1785 (http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/founders/FOEA-03-01-02-0254)

Arkie
11-05-2013, 09:57 PM
I'm all for home education. Maybe it reduces some of the burden. We already spend more per student than any other nation, and we can't even outperform them. In addition, homeschooled kids usually score higher than our public school kids.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-06-2013, 07:51 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/education-30-years.jpg

<big>Thirty years ago was when Reagan stole power and gave
the super-rich tax cuts which Der Monkey Fuhrer enhanced.

http://www.bartcop.com/bush-crimes-mug-shot.jpg
"Who needs educatin' when we'll
all be dead in 100 years, anyway?"</big>