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Rohirrim
11-02-2013, 10:31 AM
Robert Reich is one of the only people left who actually sees what's going on.

Congress, meanwhile, doesn't know much about the bottom 90 percent. The top 10 percent provide almost all campaign contributions and funding of "independent" ads.

Moreover, just about all members of Congress are drawn from the same top 10 percent -- as are almost all their friends and associates, and even the media who report on them.

Get it? The bottom 90 percent of Americans -- most of whom are still suffering from the Great Recession, most of whom have been on a downward escalator for decades -- have disappeared from official Washington.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/snap-cuts_b_4202871.html

Rohirrim
11-02-2013, 10:32 AM
As of November 1 more than 47 million Americans have lost some or all of their food stamp benefits. House Republicans are pushing for further cuts. If the sequester isn't stopped everything else poor and working-class Americans depend on will be further squeezed.

We're not talking about a small sliver of America here. Half of all children get food stamps at some point during their childhood. Half of all adults get them sometime between ages 18 and 65. Many employers -- including the nation's largest, Walmart -- now pay so little that food stamps are necessary in order to keep food on the family table, and other forms of assistance are required to keep a roof overhead.

The larger reality is that most Americans are still living in the Great Recession. Median household income continues to drop. In last week's Washington Post-ABC poll, 75 percent rated the state of the economy as "negative" or "poor."

So why is Washington whacking safety nets and services that a large portion of Americans need, when we still very much need them?

It's easy to blame Republicans and the right-wing billionaires that bankroll them, and their unceasing demonization of "big government" as well as deficits. But Democrats in Washington bear some of the responsibility. In last year's fiscal cliff debate neither party pushed to extend the payroll tax holiday or find other ways to help the working middle class and poor.

Here's a clue: A new survey of families in the top 10 percent of net worth (done by the American Affluence Research Center) shows they're feeling better than they've felt since 2007, before the Great Recession.

elsid13
11-03-2013, 04:19 AM
I am actually amazed how many American families are dependent on food stamps to actually survive. I didn't realize how bad it was, and it make no sense that Congress is cutting those benefits while increase tax breaks or providing subsidiaries for large agribusinesses.

The media myth of the welfare queen doesn't match the realty of who is dependent on the 32 dollars a month to live. Or the food banks that depend on federal funds to keep their selves stocked.

Rohirrim
11-03-2013, 06:02 AM
I think Reich is right about this one. Congress doesn't have the slightest clue. They spend all their time with millionaires who keep telling them how great everything is and how they've made over 20% on their investments since the "recovery" began. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of these office holders in the Capitol are also part of the investor class and also doing very well.

barryr
11-03-2013, 06:12 AM
Gee, Congress has members making tons of money with deals for themselves. Wow, what a revelation. It's only been going on for decades. And shocking as this is, hold on to your pacifiers and your Jimmy Carter buttons, it's democrats who have been doing it too. Oh, the horrors. The high numbers on food stamps has been reported for a few years now too, but I know it is hard to find it in any liberal type website since it makes Obama and his policies look bad and we just can't have that. It's better to blame republicans of course.

Rohirrim
11-03-2013, 06:13 AM
Gee, Congress has members making tons of money with deals for themselves. Wow, what a revelation. It's only been going on for decades. And shocking as this is, hold on to your pacifiers and your Jimmy Carter buttons, it's democrats who have been doing it too. Oh, the horrors. The high numbers on food stamps has been reported for a few years now too, but I know it is hard to find it in any liberal type website since it makes Obama and his policies look bad and we just can't have that. It's better to blame republicans of course.

Since Reich points this out in the article I guess we should question your ability to read.

baja
11-03-2013, 06:59 AM
As of November 1 more than 47 million Americans have lost some or all of their food stamp benefits. House Republicans are pushing for further cuts. If the sequester isn't stopped everything else poor and working-class Americans depend on will be further squeezed.

We're not talking about a small sliver of America here. Half of all children get food stamps at some point during their childhood. Half of all adults get them sometime between ages 18 and 65. Many employers -- including the nation's largest, Walmart -- now pay so little that food stamps are necessary in order to keep food on the family table, and other forms of assistance are required to keep a roof overhead.

The larger reality is that most Americans are still living in the Great Recession. Median household income continues to drop. In last week's Washington Post-ABC poll, 75 percent rated the state of the economy as "negative" or "poor."

So why is Washington whacking safety nets and services that a large portion of Americans need, when we still very much need them?

It's easy to blame Republicans and the right-wing billionaires that bankroll them, and their unceasing demonization of "big government" as well as deficits. But Democrats in Washington bear some of the responsibility. In last year's fiscal cliff debate neither party pushed to extend the payroll tax holiday or find other ways to help the working middle class and poor.

Here's a clue: A new survey of families in the top 10 percent of net worth (done by the American Affluence Research Center) shows they're feeling better than they've felt since 2007, before the Great Recession.

There is a series on The History Channel called Titans of America or something like that. It's a great documentary about the rise of titans like Carnegie Rockefeller and J.P. Morgan. It so mimics today it is fascinating. Did you see it?

baja
11-03-2013, 07:06 AM
Cutting food stamps, cutting healthcare, one would think the federal government is trying to provoke a revolt from the people. Question would be is why would they do that?

Are they looking for an excuse to implement marshal law, if so why.

Could they be looking for a reason to disarm American citizens?

Maybe they need to cripple America as a necessary step toward a global government with a global currency?

Maybe they feel there are just too many people and need a mechanism to cull the herd?

Meck77
11-03-2013, 07:19 AM
Cutting food stamps, cutting healthcare, one would think the federal government is trying to provoke a revolt from the people. Question would be is why would they do that?

Are they looking for an excuse to implement marshal law, if so why.

Could they be looking for a reason to disarm American citizens?

Maybe they need to cripple America as a necessary step toward a global government with a global currency?

Maybe they feel there are just too many people and need a mechanism to cull the herd?

Or maybe just maybe the idea of a balanced budget is still a goal of our government? Imagine that! As stamps get cut motivation to find food goes up. That means getting a job. That person goes from a liability to a revenue producing member of society. Is this concept that abstract?

Of course it's all lip service as long as our government continues to spend billions on war and shipping billions to countries like Israel who don't even need our tax dollars to survive.

Would rather us cut foreign aide to countries that entangle us in their wars over hungry Americans but hungry Americans don't have a powerful lobby.

elsid13
11-03-2013, 07:41 AM
Or maybe just maybe the idea of a balanced budget is still a goal of our government? Imagine that! As stamps get cut motivation to find food goes up. That means getting a job. That person goes from a liability to a revenue producing member of society. Is this concept that abstract?

Of course it's all lip service as long as our government continues to spend billions on war and shipping billions to countries like Israel who don't even need our tax dollars to survive.

Would rather us cut foreign aide to countries that entangle us in their wars over hungry Americans but hungry Americans don't have a powerful lobby.

You really don't get it do you? Most of the folk getting food assistance are working, but those wages aren't enough for them to live. They making the decision to pay rent or food for their children or utility bill. This recovery is still going on, as much as some want to deny it.

Meck77
11-03-2013, 08:04 AM
I really do get it. You know what people in pour countries do? They farm. Our country is holding these people hostage. Obama ran on a platform of change for the middle class? Where is it? If we really wanted to help feed people we could easily pour billions into back yard gardening programs, community gardens, greenhouse projects. Teach the poor how to raise their own food. This would require real work and real change. Easier to just print money that doesn't exist or in this case just cut them off. The reality is Obama is wall streets best friend. He doesn't want to upset the Monsanto and big Ag of the world and actually help people become independent/eat healthy food.

Have plenty of "poor" family in Ukraine. They are up to their necks in AMAZING food. They don't have cash and don't even know they are poor. Not all of them own land but land is made available to farm via community plots.

Forget the food stamps. Let's just fatten everybody up with 99 cent burgers from McDonalds. That will fix everything!

W*GS
11-03-2013, 08:16 AM
What a poorly-thought-out idea, Meck.

Meck77
11-03-2013, 08:19 AM
What a poorly-thought-out idea, Meck.

Yeah cutting off billions of our tax dollars to countries like Israel and helping Americans doesn't sit well with you. I know.

Shifting tens of billions of dollars to help Americans becoming more self sufficient and eat healthier! Insane!

A better idea rather than helping Americans to become healthier is to force feed them garbage and force them all into Insurance exchanges or fine them! That's the answer!

orinjkrush
11-03-2013, 08:20 AM
the results of de-industrializing America are now apparent. the only industry we have left is the military-industry (thank goodness).
Baby Boomer Corporate Elites have perpetrated the tragedy of the commons en masse and have decimated America's ability to have a healthy economy.
Repubs and Demos are merely vassals of these corporations (people now, I guess).
The only way to start getting healthy is to throw all the Repugs and Demos out. All of them. Even then its a long shot.

W*GS
11-03-2013, 08:45 AM
Yeah cutting off billions of our tax dollars to countries like Israel and helping Americans doesn't sit well with you. I know.

I happen to agree that we shouldn't help Israel at all with taxpayer money. I don't harbor any delusions that all will be sweetness and light if we cut 'em off.

Shifting tens of billions of dollars to help Americans becoming more self sufficient and eat healthier! Insane!

Producing some of one's own food is laudable goal, but asking folks who already work two jobs and have a grand total of 20 square feet to "garden" in to add the chore of food-growing to their day is more than a bit much.

baja
11-03-2013, 08:48 AM
Or maybe just maybe the idea of a balanced budget is still a goal of our government? Imagine that! As stamps get cut motivation to find food goes up. That means getting a job. That person goes from a liability to a revenue producing member of society. Is this concept that abstract?

Of course it's all lip service as long as our government continues to spend billions on war and shipping billions to countries like Israel who don't even need our tax dollars to survive.

Would rather us cut foreign aide to countries that entangle us in their wars over hungry Americans but hungry Americans don't have a powerful lobby.

Tell me these jobs you speak of.....

cutthemdown
11-03-2013, 09:00 AM
Not to mention how politicians will loan their campaigns money at 18% interest then use campaign contributions to pay the interest back to themselves. It's a friggin racket.

cutthemdown
11-03-2013, 09:01 AM
Tell me these jobs you speak of.....

Fixing the Obamacare website?

cutthemdown
11-03-2013, 09:03 AM
How about giving money to solar companies to jump start that industry? Or we could give people 4500 for a car that runs, destroy it, so then they can go buy a new car? Or we could spend 600 billion or so on infrastructure projects that never get started because of red tape? Oh wait Obummer already did all that.

baja
11-03-2013, 09:04 AM
I happen to agree that we shouldn't help Israel at all with taxpayer money. I don't harbor any delusions that all will be sweetness and light if we cut 'em off.



Producing some of one's own food is laudable goal, but asking folks who already work two jobs and have a grand total of 20 square feet to "garden" in to add the chore of food-growing to their day is more than a bit much.

You are both right. Local grown food is a grand idea, it empowers people, makes them independent and that is why the federal government will never support that. They want the citizens dependent on the government. It's the ultimate system of control. Make the people dependent on you for their food.

The question from my previous post remains. Why are they cutting food stamps NOW?

cutthemdown
11-03-2013, 09:08 AM
They aren't cutting food stamps. There was a boost in food stamps and now its expiring. It's like when the Bush tax cuts expired, but Obama got to say i didn't raise taxes right?

So really repubs not cutting food stamps its just how it gets presented because the media is pro liberal.

baja
11-03-2013, 09:12 AM
They aren't cutting food stamps. There was a boost in food stamps and now its expiring. It's like when the Bush tax cuts expired, but Obama got to say i didn't raise taxes right?

So really repubs not cutting food stamps its just how it gets presented because the media is pro liberal.

Spin it anyway you want but people do get off the couch and react when they and their children are hungry. Hundreds of historical events say it is so.

Meck77
11-03-2013, 09:53 AM
I happen to agree that we shouldn't help Israel at all with taxpayer money. I don't harbor any delusions that all will be sweetness and light if we cut 'em off.



Producing some of one's own food is laudable goal, but asking folks who already work two jobs and have a grand total of 20 square feet to "garden" in to add the chore of food-growing to their day is more than a bit much.

I'm way ahead of you wigs. I have a system that is damn near bullet proof, idiot proof, utilizes non gmo seeds, will give the average joe the ability to raise a bunch of food for his family by adding water and following my system that will provide a schedule, all the seeds they will need for next planting, and it's under 25 sq feet of space. Over a dozen variety of plants in one container. Working on final numbers but trying to keep the price under $50.00.

What can food stamps get you for $50.00? A block of cheese, hot dogs and straight up poison. $50.00 to my idea empowers people all year long and they will be able to grow their OWN seeds and buy more cheaply. There are also seed sharing banks all over the country being set up now where people can get them for FREE! FREE!

Again....Just imagine if our government was willing to allocate $50 billion to something like this. As baja said. They don't want people to be free/healthy.

Instead they want to bloat you with nasty food and shove insurance down your throat. If you don't they hammer your tax returns. ****ing commies!

W*GS
11-03-2013, 10:00 AM
I'm way ahead of you wigs. I have a system that is damn near bullet proof, idiot proof, utilizes non gmo seeds, will give the average joe the ability to raise a bunch of food for his family by adding water and following my system that will provide a schedule, all the seeds they will need for next planting, and it's under 25 sq feet of space. Over a dozen variety of plants in one container. Working on final numbers but trying to keep the price under $50.00.

Website, please.

baja
11-03-2013, 10:11 AM
I'm way ahead of you wigs. I have a system that is damn near bullet proof, idiot proof, utilizes non gmo seeds, will give the average joe the ability to raise a bunch of food for his family by adding water and following my system that will provide a schedule, all the seeds they will need for next planting, and it's under 25 sq feet of space. Over a dozen variety of plants in one container. Working on final numbers but trying to keep the price under $50.00.

What can food stamps get you for $50.00? A block of cheese, hot dogs and straight up poison. $50.00 to my idea empowers people all year long and they will be able to grow their OWN seeds and buy more cheaply. There are also seed sharing banks all over the country being set up now where people can get them for FREE! FREE!

Again....Just imagine if our government was willing to allocate $50 billion to something like this. As baja said. They don't want people to be free/healthy.

Instead they want to bloat you with nasty food and shove insurance down your throat. If you don't they hammer your tax returns. ****ing commies!


I makes me happy to see you are waking up to these realities Meck.

Meck77
11-03-2013, 10:22 AM
Not ready to make it public yet Wigs. The system works but in order to keep the pricing at where I want we have to go big. Have a lot of work left.

Baja, my great grandfather sailed to America in it's infancy. He realized he'd rather farm the land he was already on in Europe and went back!

My family has been farming for 5+ generations that we know of. Waking up? What Americans call prepping or surviving my family calls farming and living.

The idea that we need the government to feed our people is complete BS that I do not accept. This country has so much fertile land it's unbelievable. 650+ Million acres of federal land they are sitting on yet we have starving people? Really?

I've long maintained "we are either part of the solution or part of the problem". Our government is part of the problem when it comes to feeding America. They aren't helping people.

houghtam
11-03-2013, 01:16 PM
Better move fast, Meck, it's already being done.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24281192

Fedaykin
11-03-2013, 01:19 PM
The idea that we need the government to feed our people is complete BS that I do not accept. This country has so much fertile land it's unbelievable. 650+ Million acres of federal land they are sitting on yet we have starving people? Really?

650 million acres of land they couldn't even give away. Deserts, mountains, tundra, boreal forest, etc. The vast majority of it in Alaska and the desert southwest. Not exactly the farming wonderland you imply.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Federalland.gif/525px-Federalland.gif

And of course, the issue with feeding people in the U.S. has nothing to do with lack of production, so it's pointless anyway.

elsid13
11-03-2013, 01:46 PM
I really do get it. You know what people in pour countries do? They farm. Our country is holding these people hostage. Obama ran on a platform of change for the middle class? Where is it? If we really wanted to help feed people we could easily pour billions into back yard gardening programs, community gardens, greenhouse projects. Teach the poor how to raise their own food. This would require real work and real change. Easier to just print money that doesn't exist or in this case just cut them off. The reality is Obama is wall streets best friend. He doesn't want to upset the Monsanto and big Ag of the world and actually help people become independent/eat healthy food.

Have plenty of "poor" family in Ukraine. They are up to their necks in AMAZING food. They don't have cash and don't even know they are poor. Not all of them own land but land is made available to farm via community plots.

Forget the food stamps. Let's just fatten everybody up with 99 cent burgers from McDonalds. That will fix everything!

So what you want to do, is force people that don't have enough monies or work as it is to go to subsistence farming? And move us down the technical latter?

baja
11-03-2013, 01:51 PM
So what you want to do, is force people that don't have enough monies or work as it is to go to subsistence farming? And move us down the technical latter?

You certainly have have found the perfect city for you.

Fedaykin
11-03-2013, 02:46 PM
I'm way ahead of you wigs. I have a system that is damn near bullet proof, idiot proof, utilizes non gmo seeds, will give the average joe the ability to raise a bunch of food for his family by adding water and following my system that will provide a schedule, all the seeds they will need for next planting, and it's under 25 sq feet of space. Over a dozen variety of plants in one container. Working on final numbers but trying to keep the price under $50.00.

LMAO a 25 sq foot garden (5 foot on a side) to supply a significant amount of food for a person (let along a family as you imply) over a year, eh? Delusional much? Maybe with a expensive hydroponics setup or a greenhouse you could get a decent amount of produce from 25 sq feet. Add in the idea of reserving part of that 25 square foot garden to seed crops, and.. well ..

Even the most conservative estimate of farming area per person I've seen is 0.007 hectares/person/year. That's 750 square feet/person/year. That's about a 27'x27' garden per person per year. You're talking about 3% of even that conservative estimate.

Not to mention:

* Most people (especially those that are needy) have zero land on which to farm.

* Even those that do have land typically don't have a house sitting on arable land. The idea of "bullet proof, idiot proof" system for $50 is quite silly considering the huge array of soils types that people live on. Try growing anything other than corn in highly alkaline clay (as is prevalent in much of Colorado) without tons of water, fertilizer, amendments, etc. Hell, you can't even get a lawn to grow decently without tons of work and money into fixing the soil.

* Even if they do have arable land, you're talking about a massive amount of wasted water if this is done large scale. A non starter when there are already huge and increasing water supply issues in much of the country. Millions of individual, hand watered gardens are vastly less efficient than large scale, well organized farms.

* Even if you have arable land and plentiful water, most people live in areas that have short growing seasons, meaning a small garden simply won't provide even supplemental food for more than a month or two out of the year.

Having a garden is a nice way to give yourself fresh produce for a couple months. It's not a solution to poverty caused hunger.

elsid13
11-03-2013, 03:42 PM
I would like to point out that US produces plenty of food, that not the problem. The problem is we have fellow citizen that aren't making enough monies to afford it.

Fedaykin
11-03-2013, 03:48 PM
I would like to point out that US produces plenty of food, that not the problem. The problem is we have fellow citizen that aren't making enough monies to afford it.

^^ bingo.. like I said, the problem isn't production. We actually pay farmers to NOT produce food in order to keep the prices UP.

elsid13
11-03-2013, 04:02 PM
^^ bingo.. like I said, the problem isn't production. We actually pay farmers to NOT produce food in order to keep the prices UP.

BTW I would also like to ask everyone "what happens to prices, when you drastically increase supply and demand remain stable?" In system thinking it is a negative feedback loop.

Arkie
11-03-2013, 04:30 PM
^^ bingo.. like I said, the problem isn't production. We actually pay farmers to NOT produce food in order to keep the prices UP.

That's just one of the many ways the government fixes the market. Prices would be lower if they could settle at a free market price.

Fedaykin
11-03-2013, 04:44 PM
That's just one of the many ways the government fixes the market. Prices would be lower if they could settle at a free market price.

I suggest you do some research and thinking. Prices (at point of production) being lower is not a good thing (or even useful) in this case. The price of food has little or nothing to do with the price of production (farming) -- precisely because the production supply so vastly outstrips the demand that the cost of production is essentially irrelevant to the final price in the store. That price is dominated by marketing, processing, storage, transportation, corporate profits, etc.

This chart pretty much shows it all:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/ImageGen.ashx?image=/media/1082369/0423-tues_1-change-in-all-food-cpi.png&width=450

There's a reason we shove corn based products into everything: we produce so much of the **** we have to find something, anything to use it for. We're literally desperate to find uses for it.

baja
11-03-2013, 05:16 PM
I suggest you do some research and thinking. Prices (at point of production) being lower is not a good thing (or even useful) in this case. The price of food has little or nothing to do with the price of production (farming) -- precisely because the production supply so vastly outstrips the demand that the cost of production is essentially irrelevant to the final price in the store. That price is dominated by marketing, processing, storage, transportation, corporate profits, etc.

This chart pretty much shows it all:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/ImageGen.ashx?image=/media/1082369/0423-tues_1-change-in-all-food-cpi.png&width=450

There's a reason we shove corn based products into everything: we produce so much of the **** we have to find something, anything to use it for. We're literally desperate to find uses for it.

That's because no country that cares about it's citizens wants that GMO shiit.

Fedaykin
11-03-2013, 05:34 PM
That's because no country that cares about it's citizens wants that GMO shiit.

Actually, it's been this was since the early 20th century when various farm industries started to collapse due to vast overproduction.

baja
11-03-2013, 05:36 PM
Losing the European market due to GMOs did not help

Rohirrim
11-03-2013, 07:35 PM
You could be forgiven for thinking things were getting better. After all, the stock market this week soared to record highs. Unemployment's at its lowest rate since December 2008. In August, permits for future housing construction hit a five-year high. The economy's definitely improving. Americans across the board are getting a lift. Right? No. Wrong!

The Census Bureau reports that, despite an improving economy, 15 percent of Americans are still living in poverty. In fact, the number of Americans living in poverty increased last year, from 46.2 million in 2011 to 46.5 million in 2012 -- including 3.9 million seniors and 16.1 million children. Think about that: In 2013, in the richest country on the planet, 16 million children live in poverty and go to bed hungry every night. Shame!

Putting that in context, the poverty rate is defined today as $23,492 per year -- for a family of four. Try living on that. We're talking less than $2,000 a month for everything: shelter, food, clothing, medicine and transportation. For four people? That's worse than poverty. That's utter destitution.

As bad as they are for the poor, things are not much better for the middle class. The Census Bureau also reports that the average American family today is actually making less than that same family did 25 years ago. In 1989, adjusted for inflation, the median American household income was $51,681; today, it's $51,107.

So there you have it: 46.5 million Americans living in poverty, and what's the response of Republicans in Congress? They want to make lives of the poor even more miserable. House Republicans propose cutting $40 billion out of food stamps, or SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program) -- which, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, would eliminate 2 million people from the program, most of them children and older people, while adding 4 million people to the poverty rolls. Their answer to helping the poor, in other words, is to create even more of them.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-09-19/opinion/sns-201309191730--tms--bpresstt--m-a20130919-20130919_1_poverty-rate-two-americas-house-republicans

baja
11-03-2013, 07:39 PM
You could be forgiven for thinking things were getting better. After all, the stock market this week soared to record highs. Unemployment's at its lowest rate since December 2008. In August, permits for future housing construction hit a five-year high. The economy's definitely improving. Americans across the board are getting a lift. Right? No. Wrong!

The Census Bureau reports that, despite an improving economy, 15 percent of Americans are still living in poverty. In fact, the number of Americans living in poverty increased last year, from 46.2 million in 2011 to 46.5 million in 2012 -- including 3.9 million seniors and 16.1 million children. Think about that: In 2013, in the richest country on the planet, 16 million children live in poverty and go to bed hungry every night. Shame!

Putting that in context, the poverty rate is defined today as $23,492 per year -- for a family of four. Try living on that. We're talking less than $2,000 a month for everything: shelter, food, clothing, medicine and transportation. For four people? That's worse than poverty. That's utter destitution.

As bad as they are for the poor, things are not much better for the middle class. The Census Bureau also reports that the average American family today is actually making less than that same family did 25 years ago. In 1989, adjusted for inflation, the median American household income was $51,681; today, it's $51,107.

So there you have it: 46.5 million Americans living in poverty, and what's the response of Republicans in Congress? They want to make lives of the poor even more miserable. House Republicans propose cutting $40 billion out of food stamps, or SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program) -- which, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, would eliminate 2 million people from the program, most of them children and older people, while adding 4 million people to the poverty rolls. Their answer to helping the poor, in other words, is to create even more of them.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-09-19/opinion/sns-201309191730--tms--bpresstt--m-a20130919-20130919_1_poverty-rate-two-americas-house-republicans

Hey but Meck said. 'just get a job damn it'.

Fedaykin
11-03-2013, 07:48 PM
Hey but Meck said. 'just get a job damn it'.

And buy my snake oil $50, bullet proof, idiot proff solve all your family's food problems solution.

Just add water!

cutthemdown
11-04-2013, 07:34 AM
I disagree with food stamps because you can't police how they are used. People buy drugs with them, trade for alcohol, sell them for cash etc etc. Food assistance should be chosen for the families not given in a card or in stamps. You get a box every 2 weeks that containes the staples and enough calories for your family. Letting them buy fruit loops and chips is a joke. You lose the choice when other people pay for it IMO.

cutthemdown
11-04-2013, 07:35 AM
But i agree the govt should step in and feed poor people, but like most things it gets all screwed up.

Meck77
11-04-2013, 08:14 AM
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

It's a very rewarding experience to see children grow food for the first time. Does my system cover all the needs for a family with one system. No. They can be pieced together and can even go vertical!

Fed I've already pitched the idea to the ag people in DC. I appreciate your feedback and you are drawing conclusions with limited info I'm willing to disclose at this time. It's all good! The sun rays are warm here and it couldn't be a more glorious day to work on the farm.

Bronco Yoda
11-04-2013, 10:05 AM
LMAO a 25 sq foot garden (5 foot on a side) to supply a significant amount of food for a person (let along a family as you imply) over a year, eh? Delusional much? Maybe with a expensive hydroponics setup or a greenhouse you could get a decent amount of produce from 25 sq feet. Add in the idea of reserving part of that 25 square foot garden to seed crops, and.. well ..

Even the most conservative estimate of farming area per person I've seen is 0.007 hectares/person/year. That's 750 square feet/person/year. That's about a 27'x27' garden per person per year. You're talking about 3% of even that conservative estimate.

Not to mention:

* Most people (especially those that are needy) have zero land on which to farm.

* Even those that do have land typically don't have a house sitting on arable land. The idea of "bullet proof, idiot proof" system for $50 is quite silly considering the huge array of soils types that people live on. Try growing anything other than corn in highly alkaline clay (as is prevalent in much of Colorado) without tons of water, fertilizer, amendments, etc. Hell, you can't even get a lawn to grow decently without tons of work and money into fixing the soil.

* Even if they do have arable land, you're talking about a massive amount of wasted water if this is done large scale. A non starter when there are already huge and increasing water supply issues in much of the country. Millions of individual, hand watered gardens are vastly less efficient than large scale, well organized farms.

* Even if you have arable land and plentiful water, most people live in areas that have short growing seasons, meaning a small garden simply won't provide even supplemental food for more than a month or two out of the year.

Having a garden is a nice way to give yourself fresh produce for a couple months. It's not a solution to poverty caused hunger.

Very good post. Nice to see some common sense injected into the conversation. I've been trying my hand at hydroponics gardening and it's been a fun way to get fresh food for a limited time during the year. But in my experiences it's not been very cost affective nor very reliable. More like an expensive time consuming hobby for the family.

Meck77
11-04-2013, 10:20 AM
Very good post. Nice to see some common sense injected into the conversation. I've been trying my hand at hydroponics gardening and it's been a fun way to get fresh food for a limited time during the year. But in my experiences it's not been very cost affective nor very reliable. More like an expensive time consuming hobby for the family.

Been working on a hydro greenhouse project for 3 years now. I agree with you 100%. Most people spend way more money than it's absolutely worth on the small scale stuff. Margins are thin even in a large greenhouse pictured but we are working on ways to bring profitability up.

If it was easy it certainly would have already been done!

baja
11-04-2013, 10:53 AM
Raise chickens

baja
11-04-2013, 10:53 AM
Or rabbits

Pony Boy
11-04-2013, 11:02 AM
But i agree the govt should step in and feed poor people, but like most things it gets all screwed up.

Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime give him someone else's fish and he will vote for you.

Bronco Yoda
11-04-2013, 11:04 AM
Raise chickens

You do realize that this isn't even legal to have in many communities. Not everyone lives in rural 'do what ever you want' areas.

baja
11-04-2013, 11:06 AM
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime give him someone else's fish and he will vote for you.

Or feed him cheap fish sticks until he gets a disease than let Medicare keep him barely alive for 20 years at a cost of several million.

baja
11-04-2013, 11:11 AM
You do realize that this isn't even legal to have in many communities. Not everyone lives in rural 'do what ever you want' areas.

In that case get the urban chickens, when they crow it sounds like they are saying "Taxi" so no one will be the wiser.

Meck77
11-04-2013, 11:29 AM
In that case get the urban chickens, when they crow it sounds like they are saying "Taxi" so no one will be the wiser.

Now that's funny.


Well yoda maybe you are right. There is no hope. Maybe I should switch gears and produce high grade mush to sell to the government to feed the poor. I mean who wants real food anyway. Mush with a side of ranch maybe? Mush with a splash of tabasco!

Baja you will be pleased to know that Denver now allows two goats to be raised in small yards in the city of Denver. Well mini goats that is. It's a start and more and more municipalities are loosening their grip on people and their food restrictions. I've been fighting some greenhouse regs in the front range with some other people and they are going to change the zoning to allow for larger greenhouses in yards which is cool.

On the federal level there is a lot of things going wrong. At least on the city level and in some cases the state level people still have some fighting chance to shape some local policies.

baja
11-04-2013, 11:50 AM
Now that's funny.


Well yoda maybe you are right. There is no hope. Maybe I should switch gears and produce high grade mush to sell to the government to feed the poor. I mean who wants real food anyway. Mush with a side of ranch maybe? Mush with a splash of tabasco!

Baja you will be pleased to know that Denver now allows two goats to be raised in small yards in the city of Denver. Well mini goats that is. It's a start and more and more municipalities are loosening their grip on people and their food restrictions. I've been fighting some greenhouse regs in the front range with some other people and they are going to change the zoning to allow for larger greenhouses in yards which is cool.

On the federal level there is a lot of things going wrong. At least on the city level and in some cases the state level people still have some fighting chance to shape some local policies.

I'm gld to hear that Meck, as you can imagine I'm pretty out of touch with what local governments are doing. I do know the feds try and control them by threatening to pull funding if they try an stray too far from the party line.

houghtam
11-04-2013, 12:03 PM
Now that's funny.


Well yoda maybe you are right. There is no hope. Maybe I should switch gears and produce high grade mush to sell to the government to feed the poor. I mean who wants real food anyway. Mush with a side of ranch maybe? Mush with a splash of tabasco!

Baja you will be pleased to know that Denver now allows two goats to be raised in small yards in the city of Denver. Well mini goats that is. It's a start and more and more municipalities are loosening their grip on people and their food restrictions. I've been fighting some greenhouse regs in the front range with some other people and they are going to change the zoning to allow for larger greenhouses in yards which is cool.

On the federal level there is a lot of things going wrong. At least on the city level and in some cases the state level people still have some fighting chance to shape some local policies.

If one only needs 25 square feet to feed themselves, then why do they need larger greenhouses? Wouldn't your efforts be better used elsewhere?

Rohirrim
11-04-2013, 12:22 PM
If you've lost your job because your society wrote legislation that sent your job overseas, and nobody is willing to provide you with a new job, and your government further decides that they will severely limit, or erase the meager safety net that already exists, then you have no choice but to move out onto federal land and start making the best you can for yourself. Chop down some trees, build a house, plant a garden, whatever it takes. Why sit and wait to die in the cities?

That's what they do in the banana republics. Since that's the road we're on, people have to get on board.

baja
11-04-2013, 12:28 PM
If you've lost your job because your society wrote legislation that sent your job overseas, and nobody is willing to provide you with a new job, and your government further decides that they will severely limit, or erase the meager safety net that already exists, then you have no choice but to move out onto federal land and start making the best you can for yourself. Chop down some trees, build a house, plant a garden, whatever it takes. Why sit and wait to die in the cities?

That's what they do in the banana republics. Since that's the road we're on, people have to get on board.

Ha Welcome to baja's philosophy of 15 years ago.

Pony Boy
11-04-2013, 01:05 PM
Or feed him cheap fish sticks until he gets a disease than let Medicare keep him barely alive for 20 years at a cost of several million.

So now a guy can eat cheap fish sticks and other junk food, become an obese alcoholic and smoke 5 packs a day and Obama says he should pay the same price for health care as a healthy person.

Is this a great country or what?

Bronco Yoda
11-04-2013, 01:17 PM
Now that's funny.


Well yoda maybe you are right. There is no hope. Maybe I should switch gears and produce high grade mush to sell to the government to feed the poor. I mean who wants real food anyway. Mush with a side of ranch maybe? Mush with a splash of tabasco!

Baja you will be pleased to know that Denver now allows two goats to be raised in small yards in the city of Denver. Well mini goats that is. It's a start and more and more municipalities are loosening their grip on people and their food restrictions. I've been fighting some greenhouse regs in the front range with some other people and they are going to change the zoning to allow for larger greenhouses in yards which is cool.

On the federal level there is a lot of things going wrong. At least on the city level and in some cases the state level people still have some fighting chance to shape some local policies.

Don't mean to be a killjoy. I'm down with it.It's just my experience that few others are. One of my previous neighbors got hit with steep fines when they found out he had a couple chickens in his back yard. I've been fighting my HOA for the rights to put up a green house-lean attached to my house with no such luck yet. (Damn architectural committee) They even tried to get me to remove my hydroponic rack against the backside of my house. Hell I stained the wood and painted the pvc. Looked nicer IMO than my neighbors rusted swing set.

Rohirrim
11-04-2013, 01:21 PM
Don't mean to be a killjoy. I'm down with it.It's just my experience that few others are. One of my previous neighbors got hit with steep fines when they found out he had a couple chickens in his back yard. I've been fighting my HOA for the rights to put up a green house-lean attached to my house with no such luck yet. (Damn architectural committee) They even tried to get me to remove my hydroponic rack against the backside of my house. Hell I stained the wood and painted the pvc. Looked nicer IMO than my neighbors rusted swing set.

I called Jeffco zoning and was told chickens aren't allowed. When I asked why, they said because the land areas per house are not large enough. My fully fenced in back yard is 70' by 50'. :rofl:

baja
11-04-2013, 01:44 PM
I called Jeffco zoning and was told chickens aren't allowed. When I asked why, they said because the land areas per house are not large enough. My fully fenced in back yard is 70' by 50'. :rofl:

Maybe they thought you were talking about Texas chickens?

Meck77
11-04-2013, 02:52 PM
Don't mean to be a killjoy. I'm down with it.It's just my experience that few others are. One of my previous neighbors got hit with steep fines when they found out he had a couple chickens in his back yard. I've been fighting my HOA for the rights to put up a green house-lean attached to my house with no such luck yet. (Damn architectural committee) They even tried to get me to remove my hydroponic rack against the backside of my house. Hell I stained the wood and painted the pvc. Looked nicer IMO than my neighbors rusted swing set.

I could see why you are a little jaded. Trying to be self sufficient in an HOA? Yoda! Sell that house dude while the market is still decent.

I offed two rentals in HOAs earlier this year. Decent returns as rentals but huge pain the ass when it came to home improvements. Bastards drug their feet for 30 days when I put in my application to pain the house. Nobody got back to me so I side stepped them and got the pain schemes from one of the board members. I technically did not have approval to pain even though the paint code was EXACTLY what they wanted.

Long story short they threatened to sue me, fine me and all sorts of BS. When I finally went to sell they tried to sabotage sale! Luckily I found out the head of HOA was being investigated for embezzlement. I threatened to sue his ass and he quickly approved my paint application overnight.

Anyway yes Yoda growing food in tight spaces has it's challenges. No you aren't going to feed the friggen brady bunch from 25 sq/ft. I have taken a lot of the guess work out for people, made it easier, packaged the right seeds for them to be successful in a very unique system. That is all for now.

There is no one size fits all to growing your own food. Just too many factors, conditions, climates, bugs, you name it.

Does that mean we just all get in a government soup line and wait for obama to feed us? You are better off starving then eating the garbage most people buy at safeway anyway.

baja
11-04-2013, 02:58 PM
I could see why you are a little jaded. Trying to be self sufficient in an HOA? Yoda! Sell that house dude while the market is still decent.

I offed two rentals in HOAs earlier this year. Decent returns as rentals but huge pain the ass when it came to home improvements. Bastards drug their feet for 30 days when I put in my application to pain the house. Nobody got back to me so I side stepped them and got the pain schemes from one of the board members. I technically did not have approval to pain even though the paint code was EXACTLY what they wanted.

Long story short they threatened to sue me, fine me and all sorts of BS. When I finally went to sell they tried to sabotage sale! Luckily I found out the head of HOA was being investigated for embezzlement. I threatened to sue his ass and he quickly approved my paint application overnight.

Anyway yes Yoda growing food in tight spaces has it's challenges. No you aren't going to feed the friggen brady bunch from 25 sq/ft. I have taken a lot of the guess work out for people, made it easier, packaged the right seeds for them to be successful in a very unique system. That is all for now.

There is no one size fits all to growing your own food. Just too many factors, conditions, climates, bugs, you name it.

Does that mean we just all get in a government soup line and wait for obama to feed us? You are better off starving then eating the garbage most people buy at safeway anyway.


Well sure, nobody wants their home pained.

BTW What was your pain scheme? Waterboarding?

Fedaykin
11-04-2013, 03:03 PM
There is no one size fits all to growing your own food. Just too many factors, conditions, climates, bugs, you name it.


Then why are you claiming your have a near bullet proof, idiot proof system for $50? Want to make a fantastic claim, better be willing to back it up with fantastic evidence.


Does that mean we just all get in a government soup line and wait for obama to feed us?


Love your binary world. Either we all do subsistence farming, or all wait for the government to feed us!

How about we push back the policies of the last 30 years (i.e. trickle down nonsense, stupid trade policies, taxing the **** out of the middle class to pay for upper class tax cuts, etc.) that have ruined people's ability to make their own living through honest work?


You are better off starving then eating the garbage most people buy at safeway anyway.

You can buy plenty of good food at a store.

houghtam
11-04-2013, 04:40 PM
Then why are you claiming your have a near bullet proof, idiot proof system for $50? Want to make a fantastic claim, better be willing to back it up with fantastic evidence.



Love your binary world. Either we all do subsistence farming, or all wait for the government to feed us!

How about we push back the policies of the last 30 years (i.e. trickle down nonsense, stupid trade policies, taxing the **** out of the middle class to pay for upper class tax cuts, etc.) that have ruined people's ability to make their own living through honest work?



You can buy plenty of good food at a store.

Don't forget paring back the military. But that seems to be the only thing Meck supports.

Meck77
11-04-2013, 05:37 PM
Well sure, nobody wants their home pained.

BTW What was your pain scheme? Waterboarding?

lol...It was pain. Pain in the ass process!

Fed-don't you worry. I got the bases covered and have sat down with some of the top AG people in DC last winter. Working with some of the greatest minds in AG our country has to offer.

Houghtam- dude have some moon shine or whatever it is you drink. My stance on cutting military funding and BS middle eastern wars and ESPECIALLY cutting off billion dollar moochers like Israel is well documented.

Sadly Obama is another Bush when it comes to wasting our money and is keeping us right in the middle of Israel's holy war with most of the Muslims in the world.

houghtam
11-04-2013, 06:20 PM
Houghtam- dude have some moon shine or whatever it is you drink. My stance on cutting military funding and BS middle eastern wars and ESPECIALLY cutting off billion dollar moochers like Israel is well documented.

Don't forget paring back the military. But that seems to be the only thing Meck supports.

What is your stance on teaching reading comprehension in schools? :)

Meck77
11-04-2013, 07:14 PM
Ok touche! I did miss that. Time for me to step out of this thread and let you guys duke this one out. FED-I don't buy that there is plenty of food to be honest with you. I've been in countries and seen empty shelves. Seen hoarding in the mountains in Colorado just from snow storms. My forefathers survived one of the greatest man made famines ever unleashed on mankind. http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/unknown.html

Perhaps one of the biggest tragedies is unfolding right now. It's hard to see it because we are living through the GMO era right now.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-06-2013, 10:18 AM
LMAO a 25 sq foot garden (5 foot on a side) to supply a significant amount of food for a person (let along a family as you imply) over a year, eh? Delusional much? Maybe with a expensive hydroponics setup or a greenhouse you could get a decent amount of produce from 25 sq feet. Add in the idea of reserving part of that 25 square foot garden to seed crops, and.. well ..

Even the most conservative estimate of farming area per person I've seen is 0.007 hectares/person/year. That's 750 square feet/person/year. That's about a 27'x27' garden per person per year. You're talking about 3% of even that conservative estimate.

Not to mention:

* Most people (especially those that are needy) have zero land on which to farm.

* Even those that do have land typically don't have a house sitting on arable land. The idea of "bullet proof, idiot proof" system for $50 is quite silly considering the huge array of soils types that people live on. Try growing anything other than corn in highly alkaline clay (as is prevalent in much of Colorado) without tons of water, fertilizer, amendments, etc. Hell, you can't even get a lawn to grow decently without tons of work and money into fixing the soil.

* Even if they do have arable land, you're talking about a massive amount of wasted water if this is done large scale. A non starter when there are already huge and increasing water supply issues in much of the country. Millions of individual, hand watered gardens are vastly less efficient than large scale, well organized farms.

* Even if you have arable land and plentiful water, most people live in areas that have short growing seasons, meaning a small garden simply won't provide even supplemental food for more than a month or two out of the year.

Having a garden is a nice way to give yourself fresh produce for a couple months. It's not a solution to poverty caused hunger.

Poof!

Another right-wing myth goes up in smoke. :thumbsup:

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-06-2013, 10:20 AM
Time for me to step out of this thread and let you guys duke this one out.

Translation: "Every last one of my arguments has been exposed as bunk. I have nothing left."

Meck77
11-06-2013, 07:21 PM
Stick and move LA! It's all good dude. You calling BS on me? I've been mingling in real live with the people of this community for 12 years. Met hundreds of them. Who are you? Feel free to call BS on me. Doesn't phase me one bit.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-06-2013, 07:25 PM
Feel free to call BS on me all you want man. Doesn't phase me one bit.

Translation: "Even when my claims get blown up, I just keep on truckin' with them. It's the TeaPublican way."

Meck77
11-06-2013, 07:28 PM
Translation: "Even when my claims get blown up, I just keep on truckin' with them. It's the TeaPublican way."

Ramble on brother. My goal is to help people. Dump on that all you want.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-06-2013, 07:40 PM
Ramble on brother. My goal is to help people. Dump on that all you want.

L0L! :rofl:

Well, at least you didn't change your screen name before you posted this.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-06-2013, 07:42 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/stamps-grant-cut-6.gif

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
11-06-2013, 07:46 PM
My goal is to help people.

http://www.bartcop.com/hard-work-hoos.jpg