PDA

View Full Version : Why did Shanny stop running?


Pages : [1] 2

Bronco Yoda
10-28-2013, 01:40 PM
That 16 play 7+ min. drive in the second half ending in a Redskin TD worried the crap out of me. They were running it down our throat. The perfect answer to our Star Wars Offense.

Then comes the third QTR bringing 2 Quick b2b td's on turnovers. 21-7 Skins. Game in hand.

Guess how many running plays Shanny dials up the rest of the game. FIVE !

Did Shanny actually think that RG3 could match light sabers with PFM?

Beantown Bronco
10-28-2013, 01:44 PM
When those 5 rushes resulted in negative yards or close to it, and the game quickly turned from a 14 pt lead to a deficit, the decision was made for him. He could've maybe stuck with it for a LITTLE longer, but it would've chewed too much clock.

Think about it. The one good drive they had running it took like 8 minutes or so. And that was with good gains. Once we started stuffing them, it was all but over.

Bronco Yoda
10-28-2013, 01:53 PM
I was pleasantly surprised that he TOTALLY abandoned it SO EARLY.

Requiem
10-28-2013, 02:08 PM
He doesn't always Tanahan, but when he does, he dafts, doodles and abandons the run.

hades
10-28-2013, 02:17 PM
He forgot what it's like being a Mile High! Lack of oxygen to the brain...

Cito Pelon
10-28-2013, 02:17 PM
That 16 play 7+ min. drive in the second half ending in a Redskin TD worried the crap out of me. They were running it down our throat. The perfect answer to our Star Wars Offense.

Then comes the third QTR bringing 2 Quick b2b td's on turnovers. 21-7 Skins. Game in hand.

Guess how many running plays Shanny dials up the rest of the game. FIVE !

Did Shanny actually think that RG3 could match light sabers with PFM?

Yeah, they're having that debate over here http://es.redskins.com/forum/10-the-stadium/

bronco militia
10-28-2013, 02:20 PM
That 16 play 7+ min. drive in the second half ending in a Redskin TD worried the crap out of me. They were running it down our throat. The perfect answer to our Star Wars Offense.

Then comes the third QTR bringing 2 Quick b2b td's on turnovers. 21-7 Skins. Game in hand.

Guess how many running plays Shanny dials up the rest of the game. FIVE !

Did Shanny actually think that RG3 could match light sabers with PFM?

look at the drive charts starting in the 3rd after the Broncos were down 21-7

http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=331027007&period=4

when the game got to be 21-21, shanny ignored the running game for one series and then the turnovers hit.....

BroncsCheer
10-28-2013, 02:21 PM
I'm no defensive specialist but it looked to me like the d line went to a 2 gap tactic after halftime - not much running to be had in the 2nd half

Maybe someone more astute than I can look at what the front 7 was doing and either confirm or advise me to prepare my anus?

Bronco Yoda
10-28-2013, 03:04 PM
So this was Shanny's 2nd half game adjustments.

On Defense he'd fake an injury every other play until PFM'ings pain meds wore off and we'd have to forfeit.

&

On Offense he'd stop running in order to get RG3 killed. Thereby getting a forfeit because half our D would be now hauled off to jail.

Welcome back Mike! :)

broncocalijohn
10-28-2013, 03:54 PM
Because he sucks?

TheChamp24
10-28-2013, 04:03 PM
Look at the drives. After we scored to make it 21-14, he ran 3 times with Morris for 6 yards I believe, result was a punt. We tied it, next posession they go pass, we stop em, go up 28-21.
We stuffed the run in the 2nd half, and then pulled away.

Archer81
10-28-2013, 05:41 PM
I think panic set in after the 3 & out when we made it 21-14.


:Broncos:

cutthemdown
10-28-2013, 05:47 PM
I think once we shut down some runs, then scored, shanny felt the run to win strategy was out the door.

cutthemdown
10-28-2013, 05:48 PM
I think panic set in after the 3 & out when we made it 21-14.


:Broncos:

This. Shanny felt like at that point he would have to score at least 3 more times to win and that he wouldn't have time running the ball. Plus the Broncos weren't exactly getting blown off the LOS.

extralife
10-28-2013, 05:58 PM
you guys realize kyle shanahan calls the plays for washington, right?

Guess Who
10-28-2013, 05:59 PM
That 16 play 7+ min. drive in the second half ending in a Redskin TD worried the crap out of me. They were running it down our throat. The perfect answer to our Star Wars Offense.

Then comes the third QTR bringing 2 Quick b2b td's on turnovers. 21-7 Skins. Game in hand.

Guess how many running plays Shanny dials up the rest of the game. FIVE !

Did Shanny actually think that RG3 could match light sabers with PFM?

I think they stopped running because of the same reason all teams stop running against Denver. They know they have to keep up with Denver's offense. They cannot afford trying to run the ball and being forced to punt because they know Manning is going to score a lot of points. This puts a lot of pressure on teams to score.

cutthemdown
10-28-2013, 05:59 PM
Yeah he's still a shanny though.

cutthemdown
10-28-2013, 05:59 PM
How many people think Kyle Shannahan owes being a o coord to poppy and no other team will ever give him the reigns again?

TonyR
10-28-2013, 06:02 PM
Interesting that it's a possibility that both Shanahans and Kubiak get fired after this season.

R8R H8R
10-28-2013, 09:45 PM
The long answer is that Shanny sensed the inevitable after the first Bronco TD in the 2nd half. He watches tape, he knows when PM figures you out, you're done. PM figured them out. Gase started calling a better game, and Fox grows a pair. Shanny saw the inevitable.

The short answer is that Shanny panicked.

BroncosfanGuy
10-28-2013, 09:50 PM
Interesting that it's a possibility that both Shanahans and Kubiak get fired after this season.

it's a possibility, but highly unlikely, imo. Kubes maybe, but I don't see Shanahan getting fired after this season.

UberBroncoMan
10-28-2013, 09:51 PM
How many people think Kyle Shannahan owes being a o coord to poppy and no other team will ever give him the reigns again?

He was the OC for the Texans before the Redskins...but I guess you could say that was due to Kubes + Dad relationship too.

R8R H8R
10-28-2013, 09:58 PM
Interesting that it's a possibility that both Shanahans and Kubiak get fired after this season.

If true, none of them will be out of a job long. Shanny could really benefit from going to a system that spreads out the power between personnel and the coach, much like the Steelers, Ravens, & Broncos do. Problem is, I am not sure he will set aside his ego and go along with it.

Kubiak has proven he can turn around a sorry franchise with a 2nd tier or lower QB. He will be fine.

errand
10-28-2013, 10:27 PM
Yeah, when RG III became RG III & out, he had no choice but to abandon the run

Garcia Bronco
10-29-2013, 06:34 AM
That 8 minute drive gotta lot help from the refs. Griffin should have had a delay of game penalty and One of our RB's got tackled by his face mask as well.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-29-2013, 07:17 AM
If true, none of them will be out of a job long. Shanny could really benefit from going to a system that spreads out the power between personnel and the coach, much like the Steelers, Ravens, & Broncos do. Problem is, I am not sure he will set aside his ego and go along with it.

Kubiak has proven he can turn around a sorry franchise with a 2nd tier or lower QB. He will be fine.

He has that system currently in DC. He's not the final word on personnel.

Vegas_Bronco
10-29-2013, 07:45 AM
Redskins ran the ball right at Malik Jackson in the first half...he was rolled up a few times...and especially on the TD run. I wonder if this was intentional or just happenstance. He didnt show up again until late in the 2nd half so I knw Del Rio was aware.

Punisher
10-29-2013, 07:46 AM
He Stop running when Morris gave me 17 Fantasy points.

2KBack
10-29-2013, 08:54 AM
He has that system currently in DC. He's not the final word on personnel.

Actually he still is. He shares the throne more, but my understanding from the reporting here is that he still has final say

Bronco Yoda
10-29-2013, 09:43 AM
The Shanahan's panicked pure and simple.

It will be interesting to see what the Chief's do with their running game when PFM starts rolling on their Defense.

CHEF LUIGI
10-29-2013, 10:50 AM
Because he sucks?shanny is , was and will always be a PASS JUNKIE 1
always!
BOBBY TURNER is the guy that desewrves all the running back credit that shanny allows the media and fans to place at his feet.
ALEX GIBBS is the master of zone blocking and designing run plays.
SHANNY IS A QB COACH AND A WR COACH WHO HAS never coached anything other than those 2 positions in college and the pros.
PASSING IS HIS FORTE, ITS WHAT BHE KNOWS BEST AND UNDERSTANDS BEST.
shanny abandoned the run because thats what he always does when he is down by a single score, regardless of the time left on the clock.
at the end of the season he will fire his DC, and make him the scapegoat... same old shanny.

CHEF LUIGI
10-29-2013, 10:59 AM
He was the OC for the Texans before the Redskins...but I guess you could say that was due to Kubes + Dad relationship too.KYLE wanted to be a coach, so daddy sent him to KUBIAK, the guy that made the gameplan and the 20 play script every week while shanny , the dad, played golf.
shanahan is a figurehead, he is a poor excuse for a head coach if he does not have a team like
kubes
bobby turner
and alex gibbs to actually do the coaching !
shanny has NEVER coached any LINE or any defense or any special teams in his entire life as a coach... NEVER !
without a superstar QB, shanny is worthless.
he is only a QB coach in disguise.

Guess Who
10-29-2013, 01:43 PM
He stopped running because he got hypnotized by horse teeth.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=media%2Fapphoto%2F608a4e58-a55b-49e8-bb1d-b45859009a77.jpg&w=512&h=322

elsid13
10-29-2013, 02:36 PM
He has that system currently in DC. He's not the final word on personnel.

Shanahan is the finally decision maker in DC. Allen the GM but the power rest with Shanny as the VP of Football OPS

Bronco Yoda
10-30-2013, 12:22 PM
Redskins Loss In Denver Falls Squarely On Kyle Shanahan
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/28/redskins-loss-in-denver-falls-squarely-on-kyle-shanahan/

So in a span of 13:05 in the third and fourth quarters when Washington led, was tied or was within striking distance, Kyle called 10 passes and just two runs. This even though Morris’ 5.2 yards per-carry is the best of any of the NFL’s 25 leading rushers save Oakland quarterback Terrelle Pryor and even though Morris was averaging 7.1 per attempt against Denver before he virtually disappeared from sight.

...“We’ve had trouble passing all year,” receiver Pierre Garcon said in frustration, knowing the Broncos had come in ranked last in pass defense. “Doesn’t matter [who you're playing]. If you suck at passing, you suck at passing. … We’ve just got to figure it out.”...

TonyR
10-30-2013, 12:35 PM
^ Good find, Yoda. This is what all the Skins fans I know are complaining about. I think the Broncos win regardless, but it did seem to me they abandoned the run too much and too soon.

elsid13
10-30-2013, 01:09 PM
^ Good find, Yoda. This is what all the Skins fans I know are complaining about. I think the Broncos win regardless, but it did seem to me they abandoned the run too much and too soon.

I think Shanny was hoping the PA would start working so they could force the defense to back off and ensure that they still could run in 2nd half, but when RGIII couldn't hit the wide open WRs, that plan took a crap and rest is history.

Taco John
10-30-2013, 01:11 PM
One thing is for sure, RG3's accuracy was terrible all game long. Just awful.

Rascal
10-30-2013, 06:35 PM
because his son is an idiot.

signed,

Alfred Morris owners

RedskinBronco
11-07-2013, 08:44 PM
I won't start a new thread, I will just put this here.

I can't wait for shanahan's ass to be gone. I'm so sick of seeing the same **** I saw at the tail end of his tenure in Denver.

No ****ing defense. ****ing embarrassment to let christian ponder ****ing offense score 28 points and not even through 3 quarters.

BroncoMan4ever
11-07-2013, 08:53 PM
One thing is for sure, RG3's accuracy was terrible all game long. Just awful.

in RG3's defense, it is hard to throw from under a DL. dude got hit on something like 60% of his drop backs. may be a marginal QB but he is a tough bastard.

RedskinBronco
11-07-2013, 08:55 PM
Hey look another shanahan special of long 3rd down conversion by the opponent.

Broncojef
11-07-2013, 09:11 PM
Deadskins did the exact same thing tonight. Morris was tearing it up they were ahead and in the second half tried to make RG throw. They will lose this game on terrible offensive play calling again.

RedskinBronco
11-07-2013, 09:31 PM
Deadskins did the exact same thing tonight. Morris was tearing it up they were ahead and in the second half tried to make RG throw. They will lose this game on terrible offensive play calling again.

I'm good with it as long as it gets the stubborn shanahans out of town.

3-6.

soon...very soon.

MplsBronco
11-07-2013, 09:40 PM
So glad Shanny and his nepotism are gone. Horrible D, horrible ST, no discipline, multiple personal foul penalties. Then the playcalling is BS. Yeah Morris got over 20 carries but they should be running more, mixing in Helu. Every 3rd and short Morris comes out and its a dead give away they are going to pass. Then they are all pass happy inside the 10 as well. Morris should be leading the league in TDs.

bowtown
11-07-2013, 09:45 PM
KYLE wanted to be a coach, so daddy sent him to KUBIAK, the guy that made the gameplan and the 20 play script every week while shanny , the dad, played golf.
shanahan is a figurehead, he is a poor excuse for a head coach if he does not have a team like
kubes
bobby turner
and alex gibbs to actually do the coaching !
shanny has NEVER coached any LINE or any defense or any special teams in his entire life as a coach... NEVER !
without a superstar QB, shanny is worthless.
he is only a QB coach in disguise.

You do realize that there are plenty of head coaches who have never coached all positions on a team, right? Like all of them.

RedskinBronco
11-07-2013, 09:51 PM
So glad Shanny and his nepotism are gone. Horrible D, horrible ST, no discipline, multiple personal foul penalties. Then the playcalling is BS. Yeah Morris got over 20 carries but they should be running more, mixing in Helu. Every 3rd and short Morris comes out and its a dead give away they are going to pass. Then they are all pass happy inside the 10 as well. Morris should be leading the league in TDs.

And you summed up exactly why I did not want him anywhere near DC after his time ended in Denver.

It's the same old **** and it sucks that I have to go through this crap again. FML

Edit: and of course RG3 is not going to trust Shanahan when he is getting hit on every drop back. Whatever, like I said, not too much longer for MS here.

Bronco Yoda
11-07-2013, 10:40 PM
I'm rooting for RG3. Class act, tough kid with all the tools to become great. That is If Shanny doesn't get him killed first. I'm glad now that Shanahan left when he did so I all I have is good feelings for the old coach.

DENVERDUI55
11-07-2013, 11:07 PM
Ouch the Redskins score first 5 possessions and lose. 3 TD and 2 FG.

mkporter
11-07-2013, 11:14 PM
So glad Shanny and his nepotism are gone. Horrible D, horrible ST, no discipline, multiple personal foul penalties. Then the playcalling is BS. Yeah Morris got over 20 carries but they should be running more, mixing in Helu. Every 3rd and short Morris comes out and its a dead give away they are going to pass. Then they are all pass happy inside the 10 as well. Morris should be leading the league in TDs.

My fantasy team agrees with you.

ZONA
11-07-2013, 11:43 PM
My fantasy team agrees with you.

exactly - he should have had one more TD tonight and maybe 4-7 more carries

TheReverend
11-08-2013, 06:53 AM
Not a single poster talking **** when Robert was healthy and the Redskins won their division and were raping Seattle before disaster struck last year.

The Mane: Gang-beating someone when they're down since its inception.

2KBack
11-08-2013, 07:04 AM
Not a single poster talking **** when Robert was healthy and the Redskins won their division and were raping Seattle before disaster struck last year.

The Mane: Gang-beating someone when they're down since its inception.

I talked a lot of ****.....probably not here though. Shanahan has been mediocre for a decade. I agreed with the firing. He will fire his Defensive Coordinator after this season and the defense continue to be bad or get worse.

I actually went to that Playoff game. Skins fans are assholes

Br0nc0Buster
11-08-2013, 07:10 AM
Shanny still has only won one playoff game since Elway retired

The Redskins seem to be getting worse

ND Bronco Fan
11-08-2013, 07:53 AM
Should be interesting to see Shanny and Kubes possibly both unemployed at seasons end.

Pick Six
11-08-2013, 08:00 AM
Should be interesting to see Shanny and Kubes possibly both unemployed at seasons end.

I think the jury is still out, on Kubiak. He made the Texans relevant, but Schaub is having a horrible year. I think Kubiak gets a pass, this year. Shanahan has RG3, and a good running game. I wouldn't be surprised to see him "retire", at the end of the year...

CHEF LUIGI
11-08-2013, 05:29 PM
^ Good find, Yoda. This is what all the Skins fans I know are complaining about. I think the Broncos win regardless, but it did seem to me they abandoned the run too much and too soon.thats a shanahan tradition, regardless of which generation !
\ shanny will lose his job because he is nothing more than a QB coach in disguise and the rest of his teams will always suffer unless he is lucky enough to hire guys like alex gibbs, kubiak and bobby turner.

broncosteven
11-08-2013, 05:37 PM
I think the jury is still out, on Kubiak. He made the Texans relevant, but Schaub is having a horrible year. I think Kubiak gets a pass, this year. Shanahan has RG3, and a good running game. I wouldn't be surprised to see him "retire", at the end of the year...

I think the 1st question that needs to be answered is if Kubes can go back.

I think Shanny gets one more year. Hard to expect much from a 2nd year QB coming off a bad, late, knee injury. Their problem is that their OL has disappeared in the 2nd half of their last 2 games. It is not RG3's fault if his OL is folding.

Maybe if Shanny sticks around we can setup some mega trade of one of our LT's for a player and a 2nd round pick?
LOL

CHEF LUIGI
11-08-2013, 05:42 PM
You do realize that there are plenty of head coaches who have never coached all positions on a team, right? Like all of them.you do realize that better coaches compensate better for their short=comings in experience. Like fisher,the harbaugh brothers,parcells,lombardi and dozens others !
most decent HC s transscend the label of POSITION COACH ! shanny is nothing more than a QB coach.
his special teams have always sucked !
he has always thrown his DC under the bus to keep his job.
he has never been any good without turner, kubes and gibbs, NEVER !

cutthemdown
11-08-2013, 07:48 PM
It's official. Kyle Shannahan is the worst play caller in the NFL. They have some good schemes with the pistol but seriously this dude had the Viking on the ropes by running on the early downs in the first half. So hey let's come out throwing first two series of the 2nd half and do nothing, let the other team come back.

I will stake money on Kyle Shannahan never having play calling duties again in the NFL once daddy isn't in charge anymore.

DENVERDUI55
11-08-2013, 09:10 PM
Not a single poster talking **** when Robert was healthy and the Redskins won their division and were raping Seattle before disaster struck last year.

The Mane: Gang-beating someone when they're down since its inception.

You got to admit when Shanny took over Washington they had a pretty good defense. After he has had time there the ST and the defense look an awful lot like the John Engelberger defenses his last couple years here.

bowtown
11-08-2013, 09:18 PM
you do realize that better coaches compensate better for their short=comings in experience. Like fisher,the harbaugh brothers,parcells,lombardi and dozens others !
most decent HC s transscend the label of POSITION COACH ! shanny is nothing more than a QB coach.
his special teams have always sucked !
he has always thrown his DC under the bus to keep his job.
he has never been any good without turner, kubes and gibbs, NEVER !

Yeah def. Shanahan definitely never transcended POSITION COACH, except for you know being an offensive coordinator with multiple Super Bowl appearances without any of the guys you just mentioned. You are making a fool of yourself.

TheReverend
11-08-2013, 09:22 PM
You got to admit when Shanny took over Washington they had a pretty good defense. After he has had time there the ST and the defense look an awful lot like the John Engelberger defenses his last couple years here.

London Fletcher got older, Orakpo got hurt and Haynesworth stopped trying.

What can ya do?

TonyR
11-08-2013, 10:00 PM
^ Yes, because nobody else has players age or get hurt...

Kaylore
11-08-2013, 11:47 PM
London Fletcher got older, Orakpo got hurt and Haynesworth stopped trying.

What can ya do?

Ok, but what about Shanahan's historically terrible special teams reputation? I mean seriously. And this years' has been approaching 2009 Chargers awful with a crap ton of epic fail in a variety of ways.

I think Shanahan is a good coach, and one of the greatest minds of the NFL, but he has weaknesses. And defense and special teams have been some of them.

Missouribronc
11-09-2013, 12:06 AM
I know Shanahan isn't supposed to be in charge of drafting in Washington as he was in Denver. But you can't deny the utter failures he's had at drafting defensive talent.

That team has 2 defensive starters from 3 drafts. Kerrigan was a good pick. Jarvis Jenkins starts, but does nothing.

DENVERDUI55
11-09-2013, 01:50 AM
London Fletcher got older, Orakpo got hurt and Haynesworth stopped trying.

What can ya do?

Correct but that just supports what I said that he is terrible at putting together a defensive unit. He could of drafted better or signed FAs.

RedskinBronco
11-09-2013, 08:16 AM
How is this for a comment:

If Fox cant come back, elway would surely consider the great mike shanahan, right?

Personally, I believe Elway is not stupid and KNOWS you cannot win without some defense. Even in the super bowl years, it was elway and Davis propelling the broncos not the genius shanahan that never employs a good defense, is too stubborn and has a lot of players and media take shots at him.

Elway wouldn't hire MS IMO which says a lot

The Joker
11-09-2013, 08:31 AM
I'd be stunned if Elway even considered it. Move forward, not backwards.

Mike will always be a hero to me, he lead the team to two consecutive SB's and that's all there is to it. Sadly he lost me at the end of his time in Denver, but once he was gone I only remembered the good times he brought us, not the sad way it came apart at the end. I find it sad that any Bronco fan would have anything but great affection for the guy.

That said, I thought it was a horrible collapse in the second half and the playcalling was abysmal. How much of that falls on Mike and how much on Kyle on Monday night I don't know. Ultimately though Mike has to be accountable. The Vikings had no answer to the run game, I get that Morris had a lot of carries first half but Helu can run it too and that D was looking worn out. Letting them get after Griffin was idiotic.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 08:48 AM
Ok, but what about Shanahan's historically terrible special teams reputation? I mean seriously. And this years' has been approaching 2009 Chargers awful with a crap ton of epic fail in a variety of ways.

I think Shanahan is a good coach, and one of the greatest minds of the NFL, but he has weaknesses. And defense and special teams have been some of them.

1. You're as passive aggressive towards him as it gets. In one post you praise him and in the next say something insanely absurd like "When he inevitably gets fired this season", so no, I won't take this conversation seriously.

2. LOL special teams. If only he'd taken special teams seriously... oh wait, Elam might go the HoF, Darrent Williams was shot and killed and even our current kicker is a holdover from the Shanahan regime? Go figure!

Nice hyperbole though, man.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 08:56 AM
Correct but that just supports what I said that he is terrible at putting together a defensive unit. He could of drafted better or signed FAs.

I think he's assembled a ton of great players on the defensive side of the ball.

Kerrigan's a stud, Deangelo Hall is playing all-pro football, Cofield might be the best NT in the game of football right now, Josh Wilson is a terrific corner and both Carriker and Jarvis Jenkins are really, really solid players when healthy.

All added by Mike's regime in the short time they've been there.

There are only two issues with the Redskins defensively aside from playing a substantial amount of offensively oriented and successful football teams (Has any team in the league faced a rougher slate for their defense? Broncos, Packers, Lions, Cowboys, Eagles-before anyone had film on their offense-, Chargers, etc): The team needs to get healthy and, most importantly and somewhat related, they need better safety play to stop breakdowns and misses from going 40+ yards. The safety play has been reminiscent of Calvin Lowry and Marlon McCree, and yes, that is his, his "GM" and his defensive coaches fault :/

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 09:00 AM
I know Shanahan isn't supposed to be in charge of drafting in Washington as he was in Denver. But you can't deny the utter failures he's had at drafting defensive talent.

That team has 2 defensive starters from 3 drafts. Kerrigan was a good pick. Jarvis Jenkins starts, but does nothing.

3 drafts. You already mentioned the first one's premiere defensive picks as starters.

You neglect to mention that every other premiere selection was invested into RGIII, a gamble that everyone universally accepted as a massive coup before his injury in the post-season.

The only pick available to invest in the defense went into Amerson this past draft, who already has two interceptions despite "not starting" (would you call Harris a poor player because he only starts due to Champ's health?).

Or maybe you are expecting fourth round and later rookies to dominate the pro-game right away?

I continue to be amazed at the kind of out-of-context spin people will take on reality just so they can **** on a Denver legend.

TonyR
11-09-2013, 09:03 AM
Rev when it comes to Shanny:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/TrXhxmQJSS0?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 09:11 AM
Ok, but what about Shanahan's historically terrible special teams reputation? I mean seriously. And this years' has been approaching 2009 Chargers awful with a crap ton of epic fail in a variety of ways.

I think Shanahan is a good coach, and one of the greatest minds of the NFL, but he has weaknesses. And defense and special teams have been some of them.

BINGO !
all he knows is passing and dressing up the same 10 plays with 30 different formations.
he had ZERO run game until he brought bobby turner in to the fold.
shanny is constantly being called a great offensive mind but he NEEDS a superstar QB like elway, young, montana or RG3 to make him look like he is a genius.
sorry, but shanny is little more than a figurehead who has williongly taken the credit for the effort of his underling coaches.
guys like kubes, turner, gibbs, these are the real genuises that helped us win 2 supertbowls, shanny, just the figurehead.

TonyR
11-09-2013, 09:15 AM
...he NEEDS a superstar QB like elway, young, montana or RG3 to make him look like he is a genius.


To be fair, every "genius" coach had some players help make him look good. Can't win without players.

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 09:16 AM
Yeah def. Shanahan definitely never transcended POSITION COACH, except for you know being an offensive coordinator with multiple Super Bowl appearances without any of the guys you just mentioned. You are making a fool of yourself.talkin bout frisco?
shanny inhereted a SB team in frisco and sorry to burst your bubble but KUBES was with shanny in frisco, and shanny hired kudes along with gibbs and turner 15 minutes after he himself became the broncos HC !
shanny has NEVER done anything without KUBES or a great QB, ever !
have you read shannys own book?
I doubt it! if so maybe you should read again about his exit interview with the RAIDERS and art shell !

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 09:17 AM
you do realize that better coaches compensate better for their short=comings in experience. Like fisher,the harbaugh brothers,parcells,lombardi and dozens others !
most decent HC s transscend the label of POSITION COACH ! shanny is nothing more than a QB coach.
his special teams have always sucked !
he has always thrown his DC under the bus to keep his job.
he has never been any good without turner, kubes and gibbs, NEVER !

BINGO !
all he knows is passing and dressing up the same 10 plays with 30 different formations.
he had ZERO run game until he brought bobby turner in to the fold.
shanny is constantly being called a great offensive mind but he NEEDS a superstar QB like elway, young, montana or RG3 to make him look like he is a genius.
sorry, but shanny is little more than a figurehead who has williongly taken the credit for the effort of his underling coaches.
guys like kubes, turner, gibbs, these are the real genuises that helped us win 2 supertbowls, shanny, just the figurehead.

talkin bout frisco?
shanny inhereted a SB team in frisco and sorry to burst your bubble but KUBES was with shanny in frisco, and shanny hired kudes along with gibbs and turner 15 minutes after he himself became the broncos HC !
shanny has NEVER done anything without KUBES or a great QB, ever !
have you read shannys own book?
I doubt it! if so maybe you should read again about his exit interview with the RAIDERS and art shell !

Thank God you're a lurker.

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 09:19 AM
a lurker who has been a bronco fan since august 1960.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 09:26 AM
a lurker who has been a bronco fan since august 1960.

Looks to me like you fell asleep for a couple decades.

Good news, we won the Superbowl!

Twice!

cutthemdown
11-09-2013, 09:28 AM
Shannahan in Denver struggled on special teams because he spent so much money on vet FA there wasn't enough left to build the back end of the roster where special team players lurk. He concentrated too much on trying to plug holes with FA and neglected young tackling linebackers to play on special teams.

Just my opinion.

Also Kyle Shannahan doesn't belong as an O coord. Maybe a WR coach or something.

DENVERDUI55
11-09-2013, 09:55 AM
How is this for a comment:

If Fox cant come back, elway would surely consider the great mike shanahan, right?

Personally, I believe Elway is not stupid and KNOWS you cannot win without some defense. Even in the super bowl years, it was elway and Davis propelling the broncos not the genius shanahan that never employs a good defense, is too stubborn and has a lot of players and media take shots at him.

Elway wouldn't hire MS IMO which says a lot
No way in he'll Elway would hire Shanahan after he didn't want Elway to have a position in management when he was the HC.

bowtown
11-09-2013, 10:29 AM
talkin bout frisco?
shanny inhereted a SB team in frisco and sorry to burst your bubble but KUBES was with shanny in frisco, and shanny hired kudes along with gibbs and turner 15 minutes after he himself became the broncos HC !
shanny has NEVER done anything without KUBES or a great QB, ever !
have you read shannys own book?
I doubt it! if so maybe you should read again about his exit interview with the RAIDERS and art shell !

I'm also talking about His Super Bowl appearances as OC in Denver as well, or are you going to give Kubiak, who was a backup QB, credit for those as well?

Did it ever occur to you that Shanahan made Kubiak what he is?

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 10:32 AM
Looks to me like you fell asleep for a couple decades.

Good news, we won the Superbowl!

Twice!there was a time when I thought shanny was the smartest guy in the room. then i saw what his teams looked like when giubbs left, when kubes left and I read shannys book, HIS book, and got a better view of reality !
I saw what a shanny offense looked like when it wasnt run by a super-hero at QB.
I watched other NFL teams whose HC also ran the special teams.
SHANAHAN, it has the same value at his restaurant as it does for his NFL team.
HE DOESNT COOK THE FOOD.
HE DOESNT SERVE THE FOOD
HE DOESNT EVEN ORCHESTRATE THE RESERVATIONS AND SEATING CHART. shanny is just the figurehead, the name on the marque !

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 10:35 AM
I'm also talking about His Super Bowl appearances as OC in Denver as well, or are you going to give Kubiak, who was a backup QB, credit for those as well?

Did it ever occur to you that Shanahan made Kubiak what he is?and thats why daddy sent his son to learn how to coach with kubes?
shanny takes credit for TD, he has ZERO to do with TDs success !
like I said you and these vigilant supporters have probably NEVER read his book !

Archer81
11-09-2013, 10:41 AM
BINGO !
all he knows is passing and dressing up the same 10 plays with 30 different formations.
he had ZERO run game until he brought bobby turner in to the fold.
shanny is constantly being called a great offensive mind but he NEEDS a superstar QB like elway, young, montana or RG3 to make him look like he is a genius.
sorry, but shanny is little more than a figurehead who has williongly taken the credit for the effort of his underling coaches.
guys like kubes, turner, gibbs, these are the real genuises that helped us win 2 supertbowls, shanny, just the figurehead.


So wait...you mean a HC who guides a team to a superbowl had good to great assistant and position coaches?

OMG NO WAI!

Also not sure where you say zero run game unless you are talking about the Redskins. Shanny's first year in Denver was 1995. As was Bobby Turners. Denver's running game was ranked 5th.

And you realize that great quarterbacks tend to make their head coaches look like geniuses. That is usually how it works.

:Broncos:

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 10:44 AM
I'm also talking about His Super Bowl appearances as OC in Denver as well, or are you going to give Kubiak, who was a backup QB, credit for those as well?

Did it ever occur to you that Shanahan made Kubiak what he is?both kubes and shanny benefitted from going to frisco and learning how to be an NFL coach from one of the greatest..... george seifert.

bowtown
11-09-2013, 10:48 AM
and thats why daddy sent his son to learn how to coach with kubes?
shanny takes credit for TD, he has ZERO to do with TDs success !
like I said you and these vigilant supporters have probably NEVER read his book !

Kubiak learned under Shanahan as a backup QB, QB coach, and OC. Kubiak has 5 Super Bowl appearances, and 3 rings under Shanahan. What exactly has he won since?

bowtown
11-09-2013, 10:49 AM
both kubes and shanny benefitted from going to frisco and learning how to be an NFL coach from one of the greatest..... george seifert.

Again, Shanahan was responsible for 2 Super Bowl appearances as OC before stepping foot in SF.

cutthemdown
11-09-2013, 10:50 AM
No way in he'll Elway would hire Shananahan after he didn't want Elway to have a position in management when he was the HC.

Agreed. No way Elway wants to deal with Shannahan.

Archer81
11-09-2013, 10:52 AM
both kubes and shanny benefitted from going to frisco and learning how to be an NFL coach from one of the greatest..... george seifert.


Who had Montana...then Young at QB.

See how this works? Or do you not remember Seifert in Carolina?


:Broncos:

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 10:55 AM
Agreed. No way Elway wants to deal with Shannahan.

Nowhere has that rumor ever been substantiated.

It's just a dreamed up scenario since Elway wasn't GM under Shanahan.

Meanwhile, the reality is that Elway had just retired and then spent years running his own football team: He ran the Colorado Crush until 2008... Shanahan was fired at the start of 2009.

So what time window is it that Elway would've even been pursuing working for the Broncos under Shanahan?

Exactly...

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 10:57 AM
One thing that I find especially amusing from Shanahan detractors:

- One post angrily calls him a nepotist

- The next angrily accuses him of refusing to hire John Elway

Both amusingly false on their own, but hilariously stupid together in their contradictory fashion.

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 11:02 AM
it has been very well documented that shanny did not want JE coming around stealing the limelight from shanny after JFE left the building. few if ANY former broncos where welcome at dove valley or along the sidelines of games. SHANNY wanted to make sure than nobody would suggest that anyone other than shanny was in charge and leading/ motivating HIS broncos.well documented.
when have you EVER heard shanny praise gibbs or turner... EVER ?

RedskinBronco
11-09-2013, 11:07 AM
I know this debate will never end but I did want to add two more thoughts lol

1) No matter the personnel or defensive coordinator, Shanahan gm/coached teams always suck on defense. No coincidence, IMO.

2) For as much of an offensive coach he is, the stubborness and thinking he is smarter than anyone else in the room leads to his offenses getting stumped and his quarterbacks killed due to his belief in small offensive lines for zone blocking scheme purposes.

In a nutshell, if RG3 isn't dominating a game; the team stands no chance. Sound familiar, Broncos fans?

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 11:11 AM
it has been very well documented that shanny did not want JE coming around stealing the limelight from shanny after JFE left the building. few if ANY former broncos where welcome at dove valley or along the sidelines of games. SHANNY wanted to make sure than nobody would suggest that anyone other than shanny was in charge and leading/ motivating HIS broncos.well documented.
when have you EVER heard shanny praise gibbs or turner... EVER ?

http://nflredskins.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ned7333.jpg?w=450&h=300

Also, fyi: http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2010/redskins-hire-bobby-turner-as-associate-head-coach/

BroncosfanGuy
11-09-2013, 11:16 AM
few if ANY former broncos where welcome at dove valley or along the sidelines of games. SHANNY wanted to make sure than nobody would suggest that anyone other than shanny was in charge and leading/ motivating HIS broncos.well documented.


are you sure you aren't confusing Shanahan with McDaniels?

I don't get all the anger from Bronco fans toward the HC that won 2 Lombardis in a row in Denver. it confuses me.

slick7
11-09-2013, 11:41 AM
Seeing TD in that Redskin garb makes me want to puke. I couldn't even quote your post.

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 12:18 PM
I know this debate will never end but I did want to add two more thoughts lol

1) No matter the personnel or defensive coordinator, Shanahan gm/coached teams always suck on defense. No coincidence, IMO.

2) For as much of an offensive coach he is, the stubborness and thinking he is smarter than anyone else in the room leads to his offenses getting stumped and his quarterbacks killed due to his belief in small offensive lines for zone blocking scheme purposes.

In a nutshell, if RG3 isn't dominating a game; the team stands no chance. Sound familiar, Broncos fans?on this subject we agree.
shanny stubborn and arrogant. lousty second half of football games,
lousy second half of football seasons !
classic shanny with no kubes at his side.

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 12:20 PM
http://nflredskins.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ned7333.jpg?w=450&h=300

Also, fyi: http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2010/redskins-hire-bobby-turner-as-associate-head-coach/sorry I fail to see any bronco uniforms in that picture !
like I said, well documented that shanny did not want any former broncos around in the new millenium. all this picture proves is that shanny has a new PR agent and TD needs a paycheck.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 12:23 PM
sorry I fail to see any bronco uniforms in that picture !
like I said, well documented that shanny did not want any former broncos around in the new millenium. all this picture proves is that shanny has a new PR agent and TD needs a paycheck.

TD wanted to see if he'd like coaching so Shanahan brought him to intern during camp. So that debunks everything you said there.

Oh, you want more evidence? Gary Kubiak himself is a fantastic example, also Keith Burns is his special teams coordinator. In fact, name ONE coach who surrounds himself with more of his legendary players?

Again, there's NOTHING to support your completely unsubstantiated opinion.

I'll ask again since you conveniently ignored it:

Elway ran the Colorado Crush through 2008... Shanahan was fired at the very start of 2009.

So what time window is it that Elway would've even been pursuing working for the Broncos under Shanahan?

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 12:27 PM
maybe you can find an article where shanny actually gives credit to turner in a public statement, just one statement since 1995?

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 12:30 PM
TD wanted to see if he'd like coaching so Shanahan brought him to intern during camp. So that debunks everything you said there.

Oh, you want more evidence? Gary Kubiak himself is a fantastic example, also Keith Burns is his special teams coordinator. In fact, name ONE coach who surrounds himself with more of his legendary players?

Again, there's NOTHING to support your completely unsubstantiated opinion.

I'll ask again since you conveniently ignored it:

Elway ran the Colorado Crush through 2008... Shanahan was fired at the very start of 2009.

So what time window is it that Elway would've even been pursuing working for the Broncos under Shanahan?I never said he was pursuin work I said that KFE and other former broncos like elway were not welcome to be around the team during the shanny years of 2000 and beyond.
\ well documented by most of denver media.

Kaylore
11-09-2013, 12:31 PM
1. You're as passive aggressive towards him as it gets. In one post you praise him and in the next say something insanely absurd like "When he inevitably gets fired this season", so no, I won't take this conversation seriously.

2. LOL special teams. If only he'd taken special teams seriously... oh wait, Elam might go the HoF, Darrent Williams was shot and killed and even our current kicker is a holdover from the Shanahan regime? Go figure!

Nice hyperbole though, man.

Shanahan being fired is based on his record, which is bad in the worst division of football. I'm not sure how that's passive aggressive. He's one of the highest paid coaches in football and Snyder expects everything right away. With the heat on Snyder for the naming things and the poor team performance, coupled with RGIII's whining, I have little doubt outside of some unlikely second half circumstances that Shanahan will get fired this season. Not sure how that invalidates my argument, though.

And your response to his crappy special teams is hilariously bad. Your answer is "Elam is good and Darrent Willias was shot." That's your answer? Elam wasn't even a Shanahan draft pick and Darrent Williams was one decent return guy in an entire career of mostly terrible special teams. Bad punter, bad coverage, bad return units. If you think Mike Shanahan's historically awful record on special teams is totally excused because he continued to employ Jason Elam and Darrent Williams was the only reason the special teams were terrible, you're being intentionally idiotic.

I love Mike Shanahan the guy, and I like Mike Shanahan the coach and I hated Mike Shanahan the GM. So yes, I have mixed feelings about him. Generally though, his fanboys like you never give him any blame for some of his biggest flaws and some major personnel blunders. And that irritates. It also irritates me when his detractors say he sucks at everything.

TonyR
11-09-2013, 12:31 PM
A comment in a recent Woody Paige article, fwiw...

Shanahan and Elway would win two Super Bowls. But, after Elway retired, Shanahan didn't want Elway's interference in the front office at Dove Valley.
Read more: Paige: Mike Shanahan still the best coach in Denver sports history - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_24395411/mike-shanahan-still-best-coach-denver-sports-history#ixzz2kB8HrSSo
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook

Archer81
11-09-2013, 12:34 PM
maybe you can find an article where shanny actually gives credit to turner in a public statement, just one statement since 1995?

http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/football/professional/e-c-s-bobby-turner-joins-staff-of-redskins-shanahan/article_6d9c5b32-c3e7-51ce-8803-8ee8a11579d3.html

From the article:

"Not many coaches can match the success Bobby has had over the years,'' Shanahan said in a news release. "He is one of the top coaches in the NFL and, more importantly, a great person. He will play a major role in the development of our offense."

:Broncos:

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 12:34 PM
maybe you can find an article where shanny actually gives credit to turner in a public statement, just one statement since 1995?

Sure.

From when they NAMED HIM ASSISTANT HEAD COACH (as if that isn't praise enough...):

"Not many coaches can match the success that Bobby has had over the years," Shanahan said in a statement. "He is one of the top coaches in the NFL and, more importantly, a great person. We are excited to have him on the staff here in Washington. He will play a major role in the development of our offense."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/bobby-turner-officially-named.html

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 12:40 PM
Shanahan being fired is based on his record, which is bad in the worst division of football. I'm not sure how that's passive aggressive. He's one of the highest paid coaches in football and Snyder expects everything right away. With the heat on Snyder for the naming things and the poor team performance, coupled with RGIII's whining, I have little doubt outside of some unlikely second half circumstances that Shanahan will get fired this season. Not sure how that invalidates my argument, though.

And your response to his crappy special teams is hilariously bad. Your answer is "Elam is good and Darrent Willias was shot." That's your answer? Elam wasn't even a Shanahan draft pick and Darrent Williams was one decent return guy in an entire career of mostly terrible special teams. Bad punter, bad coverage, bad return units. If you think Mike Shanahan's historically awful record on special teams is totally excused because he continued to employ Jason Elam and Darrent Williams was the only reason the special teams were terrible, you're being intentionally idiotic.

I love Mike Shanahan the guy, and I like Mike Shanahan the coach and I hated Mike Shanahan the GM. So yes, I have mixed feelings about him. Generally though, his fanboys like you never give him any blame for some of his biggest flaws and some major personnel blunders. And that irritates. It also irritates me when his detractors say he sucks at everything.

Yes, quite frankly, this how deflect your early, over-enthusiastic support of Josh McDaniels and it's sadly quite transparent.

Currently, you're bent over backwards and isolated on ****ing special teams, yet offer no context behind it with the likes of Hester, Patterson, Jackson, etc.

Your "his special teams has always sucked" is nothing more than hyperbole used when it's convenient. The guy's been coaching for over two decades, yes, SOME of his teams had poor special teams.

By all means, take a lot at their defensive and special teams woes thus far, match it up with schedule and circumstance, and then decide if you want to, or even can, bring actual legitimate examples and discussion to your pseudo-argument.

Cito Pelon
11-09-2013, 12:52 PM
3 drafts. You already mentioned the first one's premiere defensive picks as starters.

You neglect to mention that every other premiere selection was invested into RGIII, a gamble that everyone universally accepted as a massive coup before his injury in the post-season.

The only pick available to invest in the defense went into Amerson this past draft, who already has two interceptions despite "not starting" (would you call Harris a poor player because he only starts due to Champ's health?).

Or maybe you are expecting fourth round and later rookies to dominate the pro-game right away?

I continue to be amazed at the kind of out-of-context spin people will take on reality just so they can **** on a Denver legend.

Well, Shanny wasted two #2 picks traded to Philly for Donovan McNabb. Then proceeded to spend FA dollars on Rex Grossman and John Beck.

In all, Shanny has spent 3 #1 picks, 3 #2 picks, and one 4th round pick on QB's. Plus the FA dollars. Not so good for a 24-33 record. A 5-11 season, a 6-10 season, a 10-6 season (and Div Title), now sitting at 3-6 (for the third consecutive season).

He didn't have much roster-wise when he got to Washington, and HAS made the team competitive (offensively) since RG3 and Alfred Morris were acquired. They're a good offensive team the past two seasons, albeit inconsistent.

He can't seem to settle on a placekicker and punter, Wash has been very inconsistent there.

Of course, if they can put up 35 ppg from here on out to compensate for that defense that can give up 31 ppg, they could win seven consecutive again like last year.

That might get them a playoff spot, maybe the Div Title, but they're 0-2 in the NFC East right now, and 1-5 in Conference games.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 12:55 PM
Well, Shanny wasted two #2 picks traded to Philly for Donovan McNabb. Then proceeded to spend FA dollars on Rex Grossman and John Beck.

In all, Shanny has spent 3 #1 picks, 3 #2 picks, and one 4th round pick on QB's. Plus the FA dollars. Not so good for a 24-33 record. A 5-11 season, a 6-10 season, a 10-6 season (and Div Title), now sitting at 3-6 (for the third consecutive season).

He didn't have much roster-wise when he got to Washington, and HAS made the team competitive (offensively) since RG3 and Alfred Morris were acquired. They're a good offensive team the past two seasons, albeit inconsistent.

He can't seem to settle on a placekicker and punter, Wash has been very inconsistent there.

Of course, if they can put up 35 ppg from here on out to compensate for that defense that can give up 31 ppg, they could win seven consecutive again like last year.

That might get them a playoff spot, maybe the Div Title, but they're 0-2 in the NFC East right now, and 1-5 in Conference games.

It seems like the crux of your argument is "I don't know if RGIII was worth the investment yet"?

If so, no, none of us will know for half decade or so.

Inkana7
11-09-2013, 01:01 PM
He just needs one more year to draft some defense, guys. Aren't Slowik and his magic computers on that staff? Lmao.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 01:05 PM
He just needs one more year to draft some defense, guys. Aren't Slowik and his magic computers on that staff? Lmao.

Look what you got in return when your wish was granted?

The most incompetent and darkest era in Broncos football history, and possibly where the organization would STILL be if we didn't fall ass-first into the GOAT QB.

Inkana7
11-09-2013, 01:08 PM
Look what you got in return when your wish was granted?

The most incompetent and darkest era in Broncos football history, and possibly where the organization would STILL be if we didn't fall ass-first into the GOAT QB.

McDaniels being horrible doesn't cancel out Shanny's own problems for the last 8 years. Neither are coaches I think could win a Super Bowl these days.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 01:12 PM
McDaniels being horrible doesn't cancel out Shanny's own problems for the last 8 years. Neither are coaches I think could win a Super Bowl these days.

What problems?

Bring some specific arguments to the table for once instead of hyperbole and false cliches.

CHEF LUIGI
11-09-2013, 01:16 PM
I just get bothered when they talk about shannys ability to run the ball or shannys zone blocking scheme as if shanny had any clue about either !
pass plays and formations, this is the sum total of shanahans expertise, period.
he is an inflated QB coach/ WR coach, he has no other expertise.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 01:23 PM
I just get bothered when they talk about shannys ability to run the ball or shannys zone blocking scheme as if shanny had any clue about either !
pass plays and formations, this is the sum total of shanahans expertise, period.
he is an inflated QB coach/ WR coach, he has no other expertise.

Ha!

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 01:30 PM
Mike Shanahan was the 49ers Offensive Coordinator from 1992-1994

In 1994, the 49ers had the #6 rushing offense in the league.
In 1993, the 49ers had the #3 rushing offense in the league.
In 1992, the 49ers had the #3 rushing offense in the league.

From 1992-1994, Bobby Turner was coaching Purdue.
From 1992-1994, Alex Gibbs was coaching the Colts (92) and Chiefs (93-94).

The level of blatant un-appreciation, disloyalty, disrespect and the level of dishonesty required to achieve it used by you people completely disgusts me--physically even. I genuinely hope I never have the displeasure of experiencing people of this kind of "character" in my personal life.

Cito Pelon
11-09-2013, 01:57 PM
It seems like the crux of your argument is "I don't know if RGIII was worth the investment yet"?

If so, no, none of us will know for half decade or so.

That's part of the argument, but you have to figure in the two #2 picks for McNabb and the #4 on Kirk Cousins.

Shanny had Jason Campbell on the roster when he was hired, was it worth it to trade Campbell for a 6th rounder, then spend two #2 picks on McNabb?

Then he could have drafted Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton or Colin Kaepernick in the 2011 draft.

So, although there's plenty of if's and but's, you have to ask yourself if Shanny made smart decisions to get the right QB - regardless of how RG3 does.

Three #1 picks, three #2 picks, one #4 pick, and Shanny has RG3, Rex Grossman, and Kirk Cousins as his QB's right now.

And an overall 24-33 record.

Plus, Shanny as VP somehow managed to piss off the NFL and got nailed with that FA penalty where they couldn't spend $36 million acquiring FA's over a two year period. Somehow, only Wash and Dallas got nailed while everybody else played by the rules.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 02:12 PM
That's part of the argument, but you have to figure in the two #2 picks for McNabb and the #4 on Kirk Cousins.

Shanny had Jason Campbell on the roster when he was hired, was it worth it to trade Campbell for a 6th rounder, then spend two #2 picks on McNabb?

Then he could have drafted Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton or Colin Kaepernick in the 2011 draft.

So, although there's plenty of if's and but's, you have to ask yourself if Shanny made smart decisions to get the right QB - regardless of how RG3 does.

Three #1 picks, three #2 picks, one #4 pick, and Shanny has RG3, Rex Grossman, and Kirk Cousins as his QB's right now.

And an overall 24-33 record.

Plus, Shanny as VP somehow managed to piss off the NFL and got nailed with that FA penalty where they couldn't spend $36 million acquiring FA's over a two year period. Somehow, only Wash and Dallas got nailed while everybody else played by the rules.

I don't think Mike himself would disagree that the McNabb move was a clear miss. In fact, he kind of admitted as much letting him go and moving on so quickly, so yes, I agree. It's worth noting most thought the move was brilliant when it was actually made.

That being said, I do not take seriously any criticism the Cousins selection. He's already paid more dividends than most 4th round selections will ever contribute AND could likely be traded for an approximate 2nd rounder in the offseason which not only equates to great value through practical use, but also in return on investment.

Then you round out your weird, irrational post by slamming Shanahan for breaking salary cap rules in uncapped year where there were no salary cap rules? Ha!

fontaine
11-09-2013, 05:24 PM
I'm not sure how much say/control Mike Shanahan has over personnel in Washington but it's pretty clear how RGIII goes, the team goes.

I just don't know whether it was Mike's decision to draft RGIII or did he prefer someone else like Tannehill?

Cito Pelon
11-09-2013, 06:07 PM
I don't think Mike himself would disagree that the McNabb move was a clear miss. In fact, he kind of admitted as much letting him go and moving on so quickly, so yes, I agree. It's worth noting most thought the move was brilliant when it was actually made.

That being said, I do not take seriously any criticism the Cousins selection. He's already paid more dividends than most 4th round selections will ever contribute AND could likely be traded for an approximate 2nd rounder in the offseason which not only equates to great value through practical use, but also in return on investment.

Then you round out your weird, irrational post by slamming Shanahan for breaking salary cap rules in uncapped year where there were no salary cap rules? Ha!

You're such a candyass punk so much it's not even worth entering into a discussion with you.

Cito Pelon
11-09-2013, 06:10 PM
I'm not sure how much say/control Mike Shanahan has over personnel in Washington but it's pretty clear how RGIII goes, the team goes.

I just don't know whether it was Mike's decision to draft RGIII or did he prefer someone else like Tannehill?

Shanny has total control over all personnel decisions.

broncosteven
11-09-2013, 06:56 PM
Shanahan being fired is based on his record, which is bad in the worst division of football. I'm not sure how that's passive aggressive. He's one of the highest paid coaches in football and Snyder expects everything right away. With the heat on Snyder for the naming things and the poor team performance, coupled with RGIII's whining, I have little doubt outside of some unlikely second half circumstances that Shanahan will get fired this season. Not sure how that invalidates my argument, though.

And your response to his crappy special teams is hilariously bad. Your answer is "Elam is good and Darrent Willias was shot." That's your answer? Elam wasn't even a Shanahan draft pick and Darrent Williams was one decent return guy in an entire career of mostly terrible special teams. Bad punter, bad coverage, bad return units. If you think Mike Shanahan's historically awful record on special teams is totally excused because he continued to employ Jason Elam and Darrent Williams was the only reason the special teams were terrible, you're being intentionally idiotic.

I love Mike Shanahan the guy, and I like Mike Shanahan the coach and I hated Mike Shanahan the GM. So yes, I have mixed feelings about him. Generally though, his fanboys like you never give him any blame for some of his biggest flaws and some major personnel blunders. And that irritates. It also irritates me when his detractors say he sucks at everything.

Actually Shanny did go out and get Darien Gordon to complete the Super Bowl team in 1997. He was not a great corner but he produced there better than Hester ever did at either CB or WR.

I really think that Shanny had time after working with the 49ers as an assistant to absorb what it takes to win a SB and develop his own plan.

He was begged by the owner to go to a team with a pretty good base talent level that he was able to take to the next level.

People talk about Wade bringing in Zimmerman to anchor the OL and he drafted Nalen but Nails didn't start until 1995 and Shanny brought in Tony Jones who went on to become a great LT in his own right. He drafted Dan Neil, and brought in Mark Schlereth a guy who a lot of people (including himself) had given up on.

Shanny replaced bad apples like Anthony Miller with a UDFA Rod Smith and a dude who bounced around on practice squads in Eddie McCaffery. He developed TE depth with Chamberlin and developed Carswell.

He hit on Alfred Williams, Tanavausa, Neil Smith, Keith Traylor (who he brought back and who deserves to be in the HOF because he made every line he played on better), Lodish, Michael Deen Perry (as much as I hate him for one play he was a contributor), Romo, Mobley on D.

Rouen wasn't great but he wasn't the worst punter we ever had.

The thing is that he hit more than he missed in his 1st 3 seasons, after John left he still had guys he developed like all those RB's they found and guys like Lepsis he stuck with and developed.

Shanny had that luxury as an assitant to develop an implement his plan before coming to the Broncos, as the years went on and he had his hands full with daily GM type stuff in the office like picking the type of coffee he didn't have the time he had before to evaluate players and talk to others around the league. He got so insulated in his day to day routine that it did not allow him to see the forest through the trees.

This is when he started taking chances by signing guys like Ihop and Sourbum, guys who should be no where near the franchise were brought in, in a desperate attempt to get an instant upgrade (Dale Carter, Leon Lett). In the draft Shanny started reaching on dudes like Middlebrooks or Toviessi hoping they could heal and be draft steals because he was stuck perpetually picking in the mid to late 20's of each round.

Even when he took a dude like Plummer and took him as far as he could through coaching Plummers character flaws failed Shanny because of his lack of dedication to his craft which lead to the desperation drafting on Cutler. I heard stories that Shanny didn't see a lot of film on Cutler, he heard draft noise and called Fisher to get his take on Cutler. Even with Cutlers character flaws he got a lot of production from him, it was the entrophy of the team around Cutler that lead to Shanny's demise.

Throw in some failures at the DC postion and his thinking Slowick knew anything about coordinating a Defense and he ended up getting fired.

I still think it is early for Snyder to fire him considering RG3 is still young and recovering from a bad injury. Shanny and Turner uncovered another stud RB and have had some defensive injury issues. Another good draft and FA period followed by a year of recovery for RG3 and he should be OK next year.

All I really care about at this point is that JDR doesn't rock Fox's boat and we stay the course this year, getting better on D and continuing to score 35 every game on O. I still love Shanny, he is the only Broncos HC who I didn't hate after he was fired.

TheReverend
11-09-2013, 07:15 PM
All my points just got owned as usual, so I'm going to throw another temper tantrum

Fixed for accuracy

Kaylore
11-09-2013, 07:55 PM
Yes, quite frankly, this how deflect your early, over-enthusiastic support of Josh McDaniels and it's sadly quite transparent.

Currently, you're bent over backwards and isolated on ****ing special teams, yet offer no context behind it with the likes of Hester, Patterson, Jackson, etc.

Your "his special teams has always sucked" is nothing more than hyperbole used when it's convenient. The guy's been coaching for over two decades, yes, SOME of his teams had poor special teams.

By all means, take a lot at their defensive and special teams woes thus far, match it up with schedule and circumstance, and then decide if you want to, or even can, bring actual legitimate examples and discussion to your pseudo-argument.

What the hell are you talking about? When has Josh McDaniels even been mentioned until by you just now? Pretty amateurish defense of my points; Ignore them and change the subject.

FYI, in terms of kick return yardage under Mike Shanahan, since 2002 the Broncos finished 18th, 27th, 30th, 32nd, 29th, 22nd, and 14th - and ZERO kickoff return TD's. He trends at about 24th. Punting is a bit better in the high teens, that's largely due to a two year period where he finished ninth before the numbers dump back into the twenties again.

So there's my hard numbers. Now feel free to change the subject and attack my views on a barely related subject to hide the gaping chasm in you argument.

Kaylore
11-09-2013, 08:15 PM
Actually Shanny did go out and get Darien Gordon to complete the Super Bowl team in 1997. He was not a great corner but he produced there better than Hester ever did at either CB or WR.

I really think that Shanny had time after working with the 49ers as an assistant to absorb what it takes to win a SB and develop his own plan.

He was begged by the owner to go to a team with a pretty good base talent level that he was able to take to the next level.

People talk about Wade bringing in Zimmerman to anchor the OL and he drafted Nalen but Nails didn't start until 1995 and Shanny brought in Tony Jones who went on to become a great LT in his own right. He drafted Dan Neil, and brought in Mark Schlereth a guy who a lot of people (including himself) had given up on.

Shanny replaced bad apples like Anthony Miller with a UDFA Rod Smith and a dude who bounced around on practice squads in Eddie McCaffery. He developed TE depth with Chamberlin and developed Carswell.

He hit on Alfred Williams, Tanavausa, Neil Smith, Keith Traylor (who he brought back and who deserves to be in the HOF because he made every line he played on better), Lodish, Michael Deen Perry (as much as I hate him for one play he was a contributor), Romo, Mobley on D.

Rouen wasn't great but he wasn't the worst punter we ever had.

The thing is that he hit more than he missed in his 1st 3 seasons, after John left he still had guys he developed like all those RB's they found and guys like Lepsis he stuck with and developed.

Shanny had that luxury as an assitant to develop an implement his plan before coming to the Broncos, as the years went on and he had his hands full with daily GM type stuff in the office like picking the type of coffee he didn't have the time he had before to evaluate players and talk to others around the league. He got so insulated in his day to day routine that it did not allow him to see the forest through the trees.

This is when he started taking chances by signing guys like Ihop and Sourbum, guys who should be no where near the franchise were brought in, in a desperate attempt to get an instant upgrade (Dale Carter, Leon Lett). In the draft Shanny started reaching on dudes like Middlebrooks or Toviessi hoping they could heal and be draft steals because he was stuck perpetually picking in the mid to late 20's of each round.

Even when he took a dude like Plummer and took him as far as he could through coaching Plummers character flaws failed Shanny because of his lack of dedication to his craft which lead to the desperation drafting on Cutler. I heard stories that Shanny didn't see a lot of film on Cutler, he heard draft noise and called Fisher to get his take on Cutler. Even with Cutlers character flaws he got a lot of production from him, it was the entrophy of the team around Cutler that lead to Shanny's demise.

Throw in some failures at the DC postion and his thinking Slowick knew anything about coordinating a Defense and he ended up getting fired.

I still think it is early for Snyder to fire him considering RG3 is still young and recovering from a bad injury. Shanny and Turner uncovered another stud RB and have had some defensive injury issues. Another good draft and FA period followed by a year of recovery for RG3 and he should be OK next year.

All I really care about at this point is that JDR doesn't rock Fox's boat and we stay the course this year, getting better on D and continuing to score 35 every game on O. I still love Shanny, he is the only Broncos HC who I didn't hate after he was fired.

I pretty much agree with most of this. Though I think Plummer was a better character guy than you're giving him credit for. He just stopped caring about football, but his teammates loved him.

I think Shanahan's strengths were on using what a player did well and making really effective in his offenses week to week. He had a tendency to find guys other people felt were unusable and get some value out of them. This was especially a boon with undrafted free agents, where he did very well. It was less so in the draft and especially in free agency when he'd throw a ton of money at marginal players.

By the mid 2000's the cap had ballooned so far out of most team's range that they rarely ever let players go if they were at all decent and actually good players never were released. So he was dumping money on the IHOPS and Travis Henry's of the world. Even free agents that we did kind of well on weren't that great like Daniel Graham. I tend to agree that the bargain-bin hunting aspect of Shanahan's looking was rooted in a desperate attempt to a team that had slowly hemorrhaged talent and a series of bad drafts that eventually caught up with him.

DENVERDUI55
11-09-2013, 08:25 PM
Shanny needs Wade Phillips to collect some talent for him.

pricejj
11-09-2013, 09:11 PM
Trivia question:


What man has been to more Superbowls (as a player or coach) than anyone else?

bowtown
11-09-2013, 11:17 PM
Trivia question:


What man has been to more Superbowls (as a player or coach) than anyone else?

Reeves.

broncocalijohn
11-10-2013, 12:50 AM
Trivia question:


What man has been to more Superbowls (as a player or coach) than anyone else?

Charles Haley and Mike Lodish went to 5. Lodish got his first Super Bowl Win with the Broncos.

baja
11-10-2013, 05:26 AM
i would guess Reeves as well

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 05:59 AM
Reeves.

Yeah, it's Reeves with 9.

Arkie
11-10-2013, 07:44 AM
Yeah, it's Reeves with 9.

That's amazing or lucky when you think about it. He participated in 1/4 of all the Super Bowls during a career spanning almost 4 decades.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 08:04 AM
That's amazing or lucky when you think about it. He participated in 1/4 of all the Super Bowls during a career spanning almost 4 decades.

It's always a little bit of both.

Reeves was probably lucky to end up on the early Cowboys team as a UDFA and played in 2 Superbowls and coached for 3 more. I just read now that he threw a TD in the Ice Bowl against GB... that's incredibly cool and I never knew that.

Reeves was also a little lucky to head-coach in a weak AFC pre-salary cap parity for 3 more.

But anyone who makes it to the Superbowl had some luck involved to accompany preparation and talent, and Reeves was still a great coach.

pricejj
11-10-2013, 08:11 AM
Reeves.

Good job. You get the Dutch Apple pie award.

:strong:

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 08:12 AM
Good job. You get the Dutch Apple pie award.

:strong:

Yeah, props to Bowtown. I cheated with Google.

pricejj
11-10-2013, 09:21 AM
People jumping all over Shanny is utterly ridiculous.

The man won us two Superbowls, and almost got us back to the promised land with Jake Plummer. He was competitive every single year no matter what.


He had an epic season last year with RGIII, then the rubber band broke. Lay off.

CEH
11-10-2013, 10:04 AM
I think it's fine to look back post Elway and review the results knowing what he did with and without Elway. Even the dinosaur Reeves made it to a Super Bowl post Elway.

Post Elway if you mean competitive being starting fast when teams game plan for him is minimum at best , playing .500 or less ball the rest of the season, limp into the playoffs and getting beaten like a drum then yes he was competitive except when it counted.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 10:19 AM
I think it's fine to look back post Elway and review the results knowing what he did with and without Elway. Even the dinosaur Reeves made it to a Super Bowl post Elway.

Post Elway if you mean competitive being starting fast when teams game plan for him is minimum at best , playing .500 or less ball the rest of the season, limp into the playoffs and getting beaten like a drum then yes he was competitive except when it counted.

Been disproved to be a complete myth several times over.

Shanahan's record in the back half was actually better than the first.

Excited for the next slew of lies! You guys make this stuff too easy.

CEH
11-10-2013, 10:30 AM
Been disproved to be a complete myth several times over.

Shanahan's record in the back half was actually better than the first.

Excited for the next slew of lies! You guys make this stuff too easy.

Nope

Take the time and go back and look at the last 12 games of each year post 1998. Maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 years he was over .500

Inkana7
11-10-2013, 10:30 AM
Been disproved to be a complete myth several times over.

Shanahan's record in the back half was actually better than the first.

Excited for the next slew of lies! You guys make this stuff too easy.

Including this year, he's 10 games under .500 since 2005 and his defenses average 23rd in the league in points allowed. Hell, even offensively he's only averaging 17th in ppg in that same time span.

Here's an exercise. Try to make the point that Mike Shanahan is a Super Bowl-caliber coach in the current NFL without citing anything from the 1990s.

None of these things detract from the fact that for a long time in Denver, he was probably the best coach in the NFL. Why would Broncos fans "slander" this guy if there wasn't some reason for it? For whatever reason, he just hasn't been able to put together a fully functioning team like he did in the 90s and early 2000s. Whether it's an inability to draft or acquire FAs or his stubborn refusal to dump objective failures like Bob Slowik from his coaching staffs, I don't know, but I haven't seen anything in years that says "yes, here is someone who can win the AFC/NFC and maybe win it all." Instead, all I see is someone who still possesses a great offensive mind, but has failed at putting together anything resembling a good defense or special teams.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 10:42 AM
Nope

Take the time and go back and look at the last 12 games of each year post 1998. Maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 years he was over .500


Disagrees with initial reply then continues to move goal posts for rest of post.

Like I said, it takes nothing but intellectual dishonesty to try and spin this bull****.

You guys are ****ing pathetic.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 10:44 AM
Including this year, he's 10 games under .500 since 2005 and his defenses average 23rd in the league in points allowed. Hell, even offensively he's only averaging 17th in ppg in that same time span.

Here's an exercise. Try to make the point that Mike Shanahan is a Super Bowl-caliber coach in the current NFL without citing anything from the 1990s.

None of these things detract from the fact that for a long time in Denver, he was probably the best coach in the NFL. Why would Broncos fans "slander" this guy if there wasn't some reason for it? For whatever reason, he just hasn't been able to put together a fully functioning team like he did in the 90s and early 2000s. Whether it's an inability to draft or acquire FAs or his stubborn refusal to dump objective failures like Bob Slowik from his coaching staffs, I don't know, but I haven't seen anything in years that says "yes, here is someone who can win the AFC/NFC and maybe win it all." Instead, all I see is someone who still possesses a great offensive mind, but has failed at putting together anything resembling a good defense or special teams.

^ left thread earlier after being called out, returns with a different even more ambiguous approach

Inkana7
11-10-2013, 10:59 AM
^ left thread earlier because he had something to do outside of the internet returns with a post I refuse to reply to because I am a stubborn manchild clutching to 20 year old memories.

FYP, bud. Lemme know when you choose to actually try out the exercise I mentioned.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 11:08 AM
FYP, bud. Lemme know when you choose to actually try out the exercise I mentioned.

So you come back with an entirely different argument and exercises and don't bother to respond to the earlier exposed bull**** you posted?

Okay, just checking.

McFans gonna McFan and then blame it on Shanny.

Inkana7
11-10-2013, 11:13 AM
So you come back with an entirely different argument and exercises and don't bother to respond to the earlier exposed bull**** you posted?

Okay, just checking.

McFans gonna McFan and then blame it on Shanny.

Here, I'll quote it again for you so you don't have to scroll:

Here's an exercise. Try to make the point that Mike Shanahan is a Super Bowl-caliber coach in the current NFL without citing anything from the 1990s.

Anxiously awaiting to see how you use Darrant Williams' mere existence in new and exiciting exercises in Shanahan apologetics, btw. lmao

TonyR
11-10-2013, 11:21 AM
If there's a wood shed anywhere near this thread, Rev is somewhere behind it.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 11:55 AM
Here, I'll quote it again for you so you don't have to scroll:



Anxiously awaiting to see how you use Darrant Williams' mere existence in new and exiciting exercises in Shanahan apologetics, btw. lmao

You certainly haven't earned a response with your avoidance approach, but sure:

Post Elway under Shanahan Denver set NFL records in the following categories:

Wins
Rushing Yards
Yards
Points scored

Oh btw, Shanahan also has a BETTER defensive record than the following defensive coaches that coached during the same span:
- Bellichick
- Dungy
- Fischer

Let's talk post-season:

Post Elway, Shanahan reached the playoffs 5 separate times (with 3 separate QBs), in those times
- Killed the Patriots dynasty and handed Brady/Belli their first EVER post-season loss.
- Lost twice to the eventual Superbowl champions
- Lost twice to the GOAT QB and Denver's current powerhouse
- Was dominating the NFC's current powerhouse WITH A ROOKIE QB before a disastrous injury struck.

Now I know you'll make a non-football related post in reply as usual, but instead, why don't you try to finally reply to the post you ran away from?

"Here, I'll quote it again for you so you don't have to scroll:"

What problems?

Bring some specific arguments to the table for once instead of hyperbole and false cliches.

Also, you should tell everyone your age again so everyone understands why you're such an ignorant douchebag. Pouty teenage fans.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 12:01 PM
Oh btw all that was done under the cash constraints socals been preaching as confirmed by sundquist

Kaylore
11-10-2013, 12:21 PM
Oh btw all that was done under the cash constraints socals been preaching as confirmed by sundquist

Yeah even if that were true, there were never any good free agents available in the 2000's that would have changed the franchise for the better. And there isn't any evidence of players that became free agents that Shanahan was unable to go after because of spending. Shanahan failed because he sucked at drafting, which has nothing to do with Bowlen or money.

DENVERDUI55
11-10-2013, 12:37 PM
Yeah even if that were true, there were never any good free agents available in the 2000's that would have changed the franchise for the better. And there isn't any evidence of players that became free agents that Shanahan was unable to go after because of spending. Shanahan failed because he sucked at drafting, which has nothing to do with Bowlen or money.
Bowen put a personal cap on the team because Shanny would blow so much money on Carter, Ihop, and other high priced busts. I don't think that means he was a broke drunk.

fontaine
11-10-2013, 12:40 PM
I always felt that Mike is a damn fine coach but cursed with some of the worst luck when it comes to QBs post Elway.

Griese looked the next solid young QB before blowing out his shoulder and he was never the same, then his heart wasn't in the game any more.

Plummer had all the physical tools only to crumble under pressure, specifically from a rookie QB and when Kubiak wasn't there to hold his hand.

Then he drafts the best QB out of an overhyped QB class and Cutler is still making some of basic mistakes like forcing throws, throwing off the back foot to this day.

Grossman? Don't even get me started.

Finally he gets a shot at a legit franchise QB and he blows out his knee when so much of his game is about his legs.

Just a lot of rotten luck.

Compare that to Norv Turner who had BOTH Brees and Rivers and squandered all that for poop in his hands, and so called excellent coordinators/offensive minds like McDaniels how had a hard on for Orton/Tebow/Quinn etc.

CEH
11-10-2013, 12:44 PM
Bowen put a personal cap on the team because Shanny would blow so much money on Carter, Ihop, and other high priced busts. I don't think that means he was a broke drunk.

I think the drug dealer Travis Henry as the last straw.

DENVERDUI55
11-10-2013, 12:45 PM
I always felt that Mike is a damn fine coach but cursed with some of the worst luck when it comes to QBs post Elway.

Griese looked the next solid young QB before blowing out his shoulder and he was never the same, then his heart wasn't in the game any more.

Plummer had all the physical tools only to crumble under pressure, specifically from a rookie QB and when Kubiak wasn't there to hold his hand.

Then he drafts the best QB out of an overhyped QB class and Cutler is still making some of basic mistakes like forcing throws, throwing off the back foot to this day.

Grossman? Don't even get me started.

Finally he gets a shot at a legit franchise QB and he blows out his knee when so much of his game is about his legs.

Just a lot of rotten luck.

Compare that to Norv Turner who had BOTH Brees and Rivers and squandered all that for poop in his hands, and so called excellent coordinators/offensive minds like McDaniels how had a hard on for Orton/Tebow/Quinn etc.

Did Norv ever have Brees? I thought he was gone before Norv.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 12:51 PM
Yeah even if that were true, there were never any good free agents available in the 2000's that would have changed the franchise for the better. And there isn't any evidence of players that became free agents that Shanahan was unable to go after because of spending. Shanahan failed because he sucked at drafting, which has nothing to do with Bowlen or money.

Ultimately, I tend to agree in the grand scheme of things (superbowl or bust). I loved Plummer, but I think we got as far as we possibly could have with him. I think Mike came to the very same determination and would agree with your bust, hence the Cutler rebuild.

...then it was cut short for McDaniels and Orton.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 12:53 PM
I always felt that Mike is a damn fine coach but cursed with some of the worst luck when it comes to QBs post Elway.

Griese looked the next solid young QB before blowing out his shoulder and he was never the same, then his heart wasn't in the game any more.

Plummer had all the physical tools only to crumble under pressure, specifically from a rookie QB and when Kubiak wasn't there to hold his hand.

Then he drafts the best QB out of an overhyped QB class and Cutler is still making some of basic mistakes like forcing throws, throwing off the back foot to this day.

Grossman? Don't even get me started.

Finally he gets a shot at a legit franchise QB and he blows out his knee when so much of his game is about his legs.

Just a lot of rotten luck.

Compare that to Norv Turner who had BOTH Brees and Rivers and squandered all that for poop in his hands, and so called excellent coordinators/offensive minds like McDaniels how had a hard on for Orton/Tebow/Quinn etc.

I don't think that counts as luck. They were all hand picked by Mike, so some of it is definitely on him.

Here's what I do count as **** luck:

- John Mobley's car accident
- Al Wilson's neck
- Trevor Pryce's back
- D Will's senseless murder

Four great defensive players (*hand picked by "terrible defensive evaluator" Mike Shanahan) whose careers in Denver were cut short by injury/ignorant gangbangers

fontaine
11-10-2013, 12:54 PM
I think the drug dealer Travis Henry as the last straw.

Yeah that sucked. As if Maurice Clarett wasn't bad enough.

In the early morning hours of August 9, 2006, Clarett was arrested in Columbus after he made an illegal U-turn and led the police on a chase in a sports utility vehicle reportedly belonging to his uncle. After Clarett drove over a police spike strip, the chase ended in a nearby restaurant parking lot.[26][27]

Police said they were forced to secure a cloth around Clarett's mouth after he allegedly spit at the officers and called them "****ers" during the arrest. According to Columbus Police Sgt. Mike Woods, the officers discovered a katana, a zanbatō, a loaded AK-47 variant and two other loaded handguns in his vehicle along with an open bottle of Grey Goose vodka. The police requested that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives perform a trace on the firearms to determine if Clarett violated Federal gun laws.

The officers used mace to subdue Clarett after attempts to subdue him with a Taser proved ineffective because he was wearing Kevlar body armor.

A katana? Seriously?

Also WTF is a zanbato?

fontaine
11-10-2013, 12:57 PM
I don't think that counts as luck. They were all hand picked by Mike, so some of it is definitely on him.

Here's what I do count as **** luck:

- John Mobley's car accident
- Al Wilson's neck
- Trevor Pryce's back
- D Will's senseless murder

Four great defensive players (*hand picked by "terrible defensive evaluator" Mike Shanahan) whose careers in Denver were cut short by injury/ignorant gangbangers

But that's also what I'm saying: Griese's shoulder injury, RGIII screwing up his knee several times, who expected Cutler to get Diabetes and for it to be undiagnosed for an entire season as he struggled with weight/strength?

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 01:02 PM
But that's also what I'm saying: Griese's shoulder injury, RGIII screwing up his knee several times, who expected Cutler to get Diabetes and for it to be undiagnosed for an entire season as he struggled with weight/strength?

No, no, I hear you and agree. I'm just being fair, some of that deserves to be attributed to him.

fontaine
11-10-2013, 01:10 PM
No, no, I hear you and agree. I'm just being fair, some of that deserves to be attributed to him.

Yeah, sure you're gonna miss some, it's part of the game but give Shanahan a QB with some talent and he usually gets the most out of him.

This is why I was baffled at the RGIII pick. I just didn't see Shanahan going to that option style of play. Someone like Tannehill would have been more his guy and then drafting Kousins?

Yeah, something in there stinks. Washington already short in future picks because of the RGIII trade and in the same draft they draft Kousins in the 4th? I think Snyder or someone else made the final call over RGIII and Shanahan went ahead and drafted Kousins anyway.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 01:22 PM
Yeah, sure you're gonna miss some, it's part of the game but give Shanahan a QB with some talent and he usually gets the most out of him.

This is why I was baffled at the RGIII pick. I just didn't see Shanahan going to that option style of play. Someone like Tannehill would have been more his guy and then drafting Kousins?

Yeah, something in there stinks. Washington already short in future picks because of the RGIII trade and in the same draft they draft Kousins in the 4th? I think Snyder or someone else made the final call over RGIII and Shanahan went ahead and drafted Kousins anyway.

Na, I don't think they're able to make a huge trade and selection like that without everyone being fully onboard.

In perhaps my most embarrassing post ever, I called RGIII a 4th round pick because I didn't think his body/playstyle could hold up in the NFL, but he really is a perfect fit for the Shanahans in Washington when healthy. I would be stunned if they're not serious contenders next year (assuming Robert stays healthy).

fontaine
11-10-2013, 01:27 PM
Did Norv ever have Brees? I thought he was gone before Norv.

good catch, you're absolutely right!

Arkie
11-10-2013, 06:17 PM
Including this year, he's 10 games under .500 since 2005


He was .500 during that time in Denver. Part of the reason he was fired was for being uncharacteristically mediocre for the last three years. We were playoff contenders each year. Then he took the 4-12 Redskins to the playoffs in three years. As a bonus, he still beats the Raiders every chance he gets.

TheReverend
11-10-2013, 06:37 PM
He was .500 during that time in Denver. Part of the reason he was fired was for being uncharacteristically mediocre for the last three years. We were playoff contenders each year. Then he took the 4-12 Redskins to the playoffs in three years. As a bonus, he still beats the Raiders every chance he gets.

Just to expand, Washingtons first division title since 1999 with a rookie QB despite unprecedented cap penalties for breaking no rules.

baja
11-10-2013, 07:55 PM
Yeah even if that were true, there were never any good free agents available in the 2000's that would have changed the franchise for the better. And there isn't any evidence of players that became free agents that Shanahan was unable to go after because of spending. Shanahan failed because he sucked at drafting, which has nothing to do with Bowlen or money.

Gimme a B gimme a I gimme and N - G -O

Shanny also signed some real POS free agents (Dale Carter anyone)

2KBack
11-11-2013, 06:04 AM
He was .500 during that time in Denver. Part of the reason he was fired was for being uncharacteristically mediocre for the last three years. We were playoff contenders each year. Then he took the 4-12 Redskins to the playoffs in three years. As a bonus, he still beats the Raiders every chance he gets.

He was fired because nothing was changing. The Defense was only getting worse, and he had ZERO answer for it. He kept filling his staff with his buddies and then hoping to cover up their flaws with his own "genius." He refused to get rid of Slowik....so he was gone. Getting fired was the best thing for him, as he was forced to reflect on what went wrong. I really thought it was time for him to go, and it was going to be the best for both parties.

Now I am watching him fall into the same pattern again. If this season continues the way it is going, I can almost guarantee that he will fire Haslett as the scape goat and will have hire internally his new DC (either Morris, or even SLOWIK). His offense will continue to have pretty overall numbers, but will be overshadowed by an increasingly undependable defense. Assuming he makes it past next season, he will be competitive enough to break your heart. This is also assuming he doesn't force RGIII onto the field with a broken neck a la Al Wilson or a concussion like Cutler.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 06:17 AM
He was fired because nothing was changing. The Defense was only getting worse, and he had ZERO answer for it. He kept filling his staff with his buddies and then hoping to cover up their flaws with his own "genius." He refused to get rid of Slowik....so he was gone. Getting fired was the best thing for him, as he was forced to reflect on what went wrong. I really thought it was time for him to go, and it was going to be the best for both parties.

Now I am watching him fall into the same pattern again. If this season continues the way it is going, I can almost guarantee that he will fire Haslett as the scape goat and will have hire internally his new DC (either Morris, or even SLOWIK). His offense will continue to have pretty overall numbers, but will be overshadowed by an increasingly undependable defense. Assuming he makes it past next season, he will be competitive enough to break your heart. This is also assuming he doesn't force RGIII onto the field with a broken neck a la Al Wilson or a concussion like Cutler.

I have no doubts that we'd have at least one more Lombardi had we stayed the course.

As far as "the pattern"... if the pattern is investing heavily in a QB with the physical tools to pass the hump that Plummer never could, then yes, that IS the pattern. :thumbsup:

If you mean something else, please do explain.

2KBack
11-11-2013, 07:07 AM
I have no doubts that we'd have at least one more Lombardi had we stayed the course.

As far as "the pattern"... if the pattern is investing heavily in a QB with the physical tools to pass the hump that Plummer never could, then yes, that IS the pattern. :thumbsup:

If you mean something else, please do explain.

The pattern has literally nothing to do with the QB. What I see is a pattern of paper tiger offenses with swiss cheese defenses, a pattern of taking zero responsibility for short comings, playing favorites with some players, isolating others and a pattern of nepotism with his staff. I think to many players he remains "The Little man up there."

This man said he would stake his reputation on John Beck being a successful starting QB.

Shanahan is one of the best, if not the best,offensive strategists/tacticians the NFL has ever seen. His ability to build, teach and lead are what I question. I think he is perfect for teams with strong veteran leadership on them.

I won't argue with people that love the guy, or even still believe in him. I love what he did for us closing in on 20 years ago. Personally I think his great successes are behind him. Great enough to give you some hope, but too stubborn to fix his flaws. I also think he may get RGIII killed.

TonyR
11-11-2013, 07:31 AM
I have no doubts that we'd have at least one more Lombardi had we stayed the course.


Jay Cutler and a bad defense. The golden ticket to the Super Bowl.

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2013, 08:06 AM
I have no doubts that we'd have at least one more Lombardi had we stayed the course.

As far as "the pattern"... if the pattern is investing heavily in a QB with the physical tools to pass the hump that Plummer never could, then yes, that IS the pattern. :thumbsup:

If you mean something else, please do explain.

Jay Cutler and Bob Slowick the keys to Lombardi's.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 08:10 AM
Jay Cutler and Bob Slowick the keys to Lombardi's.

A dynamic offense that completely dominated a tough schedule + millions of dollars (more cap room than Denver had seen in decades) and draft picks to load defensive talent

Yes, that's exactly how dynasties are built.

TonyR
11-11-2013, 08:19 AM
Completely dominated to the tune of 16th in the league in scoring... dynasty!!! ROFL!

2KBack
11-11-2013, 08:22 AM
A dynamic offense that completely dominated a tough schedule + millions of dollars (more cap room than Denver had seen in decades) and draft picks to load defensive talent

Yes, that's exactly how dynasties are built.

Dominated? 8-8 is dominating? 23 points per game is dominating?

Just having a competent Defensive coordinator moved the Defense from 30th in the league to 12th from 2008-2009. Slowik was incompetent, and he wasn't getting fired. Dynasties do not give up 30 points a game.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 08:24 AM
When Cutler has protection, I think this is an unbelievably fair ranking for him (somewhere between top 5 and top 10).

Under Shanahan, he had quite literally HISTORICALLY good protection. Also, does anyone think that under Shanahan he wouldn't also be much better/further developed than the years of constant battering he took under Lovie?

1 Manning
2 Rogers
3 Brady
4 Brees
5/6 Rivers/Romo
7-10 Luck/Cutler/Stafford/ManningJr

Further, most of our defensive probowl studs have been Shanahan holdovers (Bailey, Woodyard, Elvis). Add in good safety play and that unit would have looked significantly different. And again, we're talking over 20 million in cap space (wasted by Josh) and draft picks to dedicate to defense (We can be damn near certain Orakpo would've been a Bronco, etc).

That team was poised for a huge run for a decade+... then came McDaniels.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 08:28 AM
Dominated? 8-8 is dominating? 23 points per game is dominating?

Just having a competent Defensive coordinator moved the Defense from 30th in the league to 12th from 2008-2009. Slowik was incompetent, and he wasn't getting fired. Dynasties do not give up 30 points a game.

^ This post highlights an incredibly poor understanding of the symbiotic nature of the game.

Short fields score points. Drives that start at your own 10 are much more likely to fizzle out before the endzone than one at the 40. Denver was last in the league in take aways by a large margin

Here's some actual context of how good that offense was:

#2 in the NFL, and a whopping 6.2 yards per play. That's extremely impressive by any standard. More impressive when you contrast it with the team's time of possession ranked 25th in the NFL.

2008's Broncos offense had a #2 in the NFL outstanding 3rd down conversion rate of 48%. That's DYNAMIC. In Jake Plummer's most efficient 3rd down season in Denver he had a 36% rate conversion rate.

Cliffs notes:
- Your anti-Shanahan bull**** spin just got owned again.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 08:30 AM
For some additional context:

Our current record-pace setting offense averages 6.4 yards per play... just .2 yards per play more than 2008's third-year Cutler lead team.

Our current record-pace setting offense is at 50% 3rd down conversion... just 2% more than 2008's third-year Cutler lead team.

And those #s will likely fall as we approach the schedules more defensive oriented teams and winter's effect on passing games.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 08:31 AM
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwmovU-T1hqj3vPe1rHocIeIZSsqOgAy1Kjf4j4PqlBgHBjv_Feg

Rohirrim
11-11-2013, 08:33 AM
I can't imagine what huge run you think we were going to make under Shanahan. The last three games of that 2008 season (including that ass kicking the Raiders gave us at home in November) pretty much sealed the deal on Shanahan's fate. It wasn't going to get any better. Probably worse. 2008 was one of the great collapses of NFL history.

TonyR
11-11-2013, 08:36 AM
We were just one draft away!!!

Some people go full on retard when it comes to Shanahan and Tebow.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 08:37 AM
I can't imagine what huge run you think we were going to make under Shanahan. The last three games of that 2008 season (including that ass kicking the Raiders gave us at home in November) pretty much sealed the deal on Shanahan's fate. It wasn't going to get any better. Probably worse. 2008 was one of the great collapses of NFL history.

^ makes wild assumption with nothing to support it while ignoring multiple fact laden posts

In fact, with only two losing seasons (6-10 and 7-9) almost NOTHING in Shanahan's Denver career supports your opinion...

You guys should really try to bring something to the table. My pimp hand is actually getting sore from destroying all these paper-thin, unsubstantiated opinions so swiftly.

2KBack
11-11-2013, 08:46 AM
When Cutler has protection, I think this is an unbelievably fair ranking for him (somewhere between top 5 and top 10).

Under Shanahan, he had quite literally HISTORICALLY good protection. Also, does anyone think that under Shanahan he wouldn't also be much better/further developed than the years of constant battering he took under Lovie?

1 Manning
2 Rogers
3 Brady
4 Brees
5/6 Rivers/Romo
7-10 Luck/Cutler/Stafford/ManningJr

Further, most of our defensive probowl studs have been Shanahan holdovers (Bailey, Woodyard, Elvis). Add in good safety play and that unit would have looked significantly different. And again, we're talking over 20 million in cap space (wasted by Josh) and draft picks to dedicate to defense (We can be damn near certain Orakpo would've been a Bronco, etc).

That team was poised for a huge run for a decade+... then came McDaniels.

You are making huge HUGE assumptions based on literally a feeling at this point. There were literally Zero indications that the team was moving in a positive direction. Defensively it was trending down and there is no previous evidence to indicate that was changing. Shanahan has a probowl MLB, pro bowl corner, and probowl Outside backers now and the defense is one of the worst in the league. Denver had been dealing with poor safety play for years in Denver, and is dealing with it now in Washington. There is really only one common denominator and that is Shanny (and Slowik).

All evidence points to status quo, it's what we had in Denver and it has continued in Washington.

Rohirrim
11-11-2013, 08:47 AM
^ makes wild assumption with nothing to support it while ignoring multiple fact laden posts

In fact, with only two losing seasons (6-10 and 7-9) almost NOTHING in Shanahan's Denver career supports your opinion...

You guys should really try to bring something to the table. My pimp hand is actually getting sore from destroying all these paper-thin, unsubstantiated opinions so swiftly.

Your opinion is based on what might have been. All I'm posting is what there actually was. The results sucked. Bowlen realized that Shanahan was stuck in a rut and when he talked to him, realized that things weren't going to change. Keeping Slowik was symbolic of Shanahan's entrenchment. I remember that season people talking about how nobody on the team was even listening to Shanahan anymore. It was over. IMO, Shanahan put Bowlen in a position where he had no choice. 2009 would have been no different.

Kaylore
11-11-2013, 08:50 AM
You are making huge HUGE assumptions based on literally a feeling at this point. There were literally Zero indications that the team was moving in a positive direction. Defensively it was trending down and there is no previous evidence to indicate that was changing. Shanahan has a probowl MLB, pro bowl corner, and probowl Outside backers now and the defense is one of the worst in the league. Denver had been dealing with poor safety play for years in Denver, and is dealing with it now in Washington. There is really only one common denominator and that is Shanny (and Slowik).

All evidence points to status quo, it's what we had in Denver and it has continued in Washington.

Whatever! Shanahan, who hadn't been able to draft defensive talent was going to rebuild the defense in one draft and offseason! All while keeping the colossal failure, but good friend of Shanahan, Bob Slowick at defensive coordinator! Yeah! A dynasty was on it's way, guys! Pay no attention to Shanahan's offenses without Kubiak! They were going to win infinity games!!!!!

TonyR
11-11-2013, 08:50 AM
"But...but...but...FACTS! And, er, CONTEXT!" ROFL!

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 08:51 AM
Shanny's skins are still in the hunt in that craptastic division. Can Shanny do it? Can he pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat and win the division? Well, all I know is that he definitely should win the NFCE. He's got a solid offense and a defense that doesn't totally suck.

2KBack
11-11-2013, 08:53 AM
Shanny's skins are still in the hunt in that craptastic division. Can Shanny do it? Can he pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat and win the division? Well, all I know is that he definitely should win the NFCE. He's got a solid offense and a defense that doesn't totally suck.

What does 31st in the league in points given up with 32 a game count as?

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 08:54 AM
What does 31st in the league in points given up with 32 a game count as?

meh, that's just how Shanny rolls...:wiggle:

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 08:58 AM
You are making huge HUGE assumptions based on literally a feeling at this point. There were literally Zero indications that the team was moving in a positive direction.

I literally just showed you how potent the offense was, even in comparison to this year's historic squad

Defensively it was trending down and there is no previous evidence to indicate that was changing. Shanahan has a probowl MLB, pro bowl corner, and probowl Outside backers now and the defense is one of the worst in the league. Denver had been dealing with poor safety play for years in Denver, and is dealing with it now in Washington. There is really only one common denominator and that is Shanny (and Slowik).

Okay, let's go down the defensive rabbit hole:

First and MOST IMPORTANTLY, I will not argue that it was an incredibly poor defense. In fact, it was so bad it would be very difficult to field a worse unit (though Josh did in 2010), which also supports that it was definitely going to get better, but "It can't get much worse" is far from an acceptable argument since it provides no real supporting evidence and that would be approaching this discussion like you guys do, so let's shift gears:

Al Wilson's injury hurt severely and it's hardly something you can see coming or plan for. The FA market has been bare on the defensive side of the ball, and the few players who have even been moderately above average at need spots for Denver have been paid gaudy amounts of money (reference Gibril Wilson and Tommy Kelly in Oakland)

Shanahan also invested 67% of those last 3 years draft picks to the offensive side of the ball to protect Cutler

So now we know WHY the defense was so poor, why would we believe it would get better?

Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him

So the reality is, ONLY Bill Cowher had a better average defensive ranking. And oh btw, that was despite the following obstacles:

- John Mobley's car accident
- Al Wilson's neck
- Trevor Pryce's back
- D Will's senseless murder

And a cash strapped owner

As has already been mentioned, the vast majority of our best defensive players since his firing have been Shanahan guys.


All evidence points to status quo, it's what we had in Denver and it has continued in Washington.

Already disproved.

As for the current "defensive woes" in Washington, here's their opponents thus far:

Broncos, Packers, Lions, Cowboys, Eagles-before anyone had film on their offense-, Chargers, etc

Find one team that's faced superior offenses thus far? Find one team that's faced something even CLOSE to that kind of offensive quality of opponent?

Cliffs:
- Completely owned (by facts, you should try them) again.

2KBack
11-11-2013, 09:00 AM
You know what is nuts to me. The whole 4-3 and 3-4 thing with Shanahan. The media out here regularly talks about how Shanahan is married to the 3-4. Apparently he loves it. This is in response to a lot of criticism he has faced for making the switch because Washington had a pretty solid 4-3 when he was brought it.

That is so strange to me considering he SWORE by the 4-3 the entire time he was in Denver. We were traditionally 3-4 and he changed us stating that the 4-3 was the defense that always gave him the most trouble as a OC.

WTF happened?

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 09:01 AM
Whatever! Shanahan, who hadn't been able to draft defensive talent was going to rebuild the defense in one draft and offseason! All while keeping the colossal failure, but good friend of Shanahan, Bob Slowick at defensive coordinator! Yeah! A dynasty was on it's way, guys! Pay no attention to Shanahan's offenses without Kubiak! They were going to win infinity games!!!!!

John Mobley
Al Wilson
Trevor Pryce
Elvis Dumervil
Wesley Woodyard
Ryan Kerrigan

All all-pro type guys drafted by Shanahan without even mentioning other really solid guys from DJ Williams and Gold down to DWill, Amerson, and so on.

What you're doing is not based in reality.

I understand you feel the need to justify your poor stance on McDaniels and feel better about what has happened to the team since, but you should try to have the awareness that it's simply not true and there's simply nothing to justify it.

That's why your post is just some snarky-baby, passive-aggressive hyperbole (as you always approach a Shanahan discussion with) and zero football analysis.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 09:04 AM
You know what is nuts to me. The whole 4-3 and 3-4 thing with Shanahan. The media out here regularly talks about how Shanahan is married to the 3-4. Apparently he loves it. This is in response to a lot of criticism he has faced for making the switch because Washington had a pretty solid 4-3 when he was brought it.

That is so strange to me considering he SWORE by the 4-3 the entire time he was in Denver. We were traditionally 3-4 and he changed us stating that the 4-3 was the defense that always gave him the most trouble as a OC.

WTF happened?

There's no difference in application between types of 43s and types of 34s.

For example, Wade Phillips 34 is literally identical to a 43 under in application.

Maybe you guys should get a remedial football book?

Maybe that would help people get some understanding of the game to apply to baseless bashing sessions to try and establish some sense of comfort in direction for your escape-hobby?

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2013, 09:09 AM
Shanahan isn't winning another ring and he sure as he'll wasn't going to in Denver with his best buddy and the frown Cannon. He had full control of defensive personnel and put out a D that was full of guys that that was last year in the league. Pointing that out doesn't mean you loved McD and his time here.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 09:12 AM
Shanahan isn't winning another ring and he sure as he'll wasn't going to in Denver with his best buddy and the frown Cannon. He had full control of defensive personnel and put out a D that was full of guys that that was last year in the league. Pointing that out doesn't mean you loved McD and his time here.

Would you like to refute ANY of the pages worth of factually supported posts, or are you just signing your name to unsubstantiated disagreement?

Also, for the "field", what does it feel like to go 5v1 and get completely obliterated?

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 09:12 AM
You know what is nuts to me. The whole 4-3 and 3-4 thing with Shanahan. The media out here regularly talks about how Shanahan is married to the 3-4. Apparently he loves it. This is in response to a lot of criticism he has faced for making the switch because Washington had a pretty solid 4-3 when he was brought it.

That is so strange to me considering he SWORE by the 4-3 the entire time he was in Denver. We were traditionally 3-4 and he changed us stating that the 4-3 was the defense that always gave him the most trouble as a OC.

WTF happened?

yep, that was Shanny being stupid again. The Skins had an excellent base 4-3 defense before Shanny got there. You'd think Shanny would have just left it alone, right? Nope, Shanny throws a grenade into the defense just to prove a point: he's in charge, thank you very little.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 09:18 AM
yep, that was Shanny being stupid again. The Skins had an excellent base 4-3 defense before Shanny got there. You'd think Shanny would have just left it alone, right? Nope, Shanny throws a grenade into the defense just to prove a point: he's in charge, thank you very little.

:spit:

Make a post about how gap assignments and responsibilities for the front seven changed at all?

2KBack
11-11-2013, 09:19 AM
I literally just showed you how potent the offense was, even in comparison to this year's historic squad



Okay, let's go down the defensive rabbit hole:

First and MOST IMPORTANTLY, I will not argue that it was an incredibly poor defense. In fact, it was so bad it would be very difficult to field a worse unit (though Josh did in 2010), which also supports that it was definitely going to get better, but "It can't get much worse" is far from an acceptable argument since it provides no real supporting evidence and that would be approaching this discussion like you guys do, so let's shift gears:

Al Wilson's injury hurt severely and it's hardly something you can see coming or plan for. The FA market has been bare on the defensive side of the ball, and the few players who have even been moderately above average at need spots for Denver have been paid gaudy amounts of money (reference Gibril Wilson and Tommy Kelly in Oakland)

Shanahan also invested 67% of those last 3 years draft picks to the offensive side of the ball to protect Cutler

So now we know WHY the defense was so poor, why would we believe it would get better?

Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him

So the reality is, ONLY Bill Cowher had a better average defensive ranking. And oh btw, that was despite the following obstacles:

- John Mobley's car accident
- Al Wilson's neck
- Trevor Pryce's back
- D Will's senseless murder

And a cash strapped owner

As has already been mentioned, the vast majority of our best defensive players since his firing have been Shanahan guys.




Already disproved.

As for the current "defensive woes" in Washington, here's their opponents thus far:

Broncos, Packers, Lions, Cowboys, Eagles-before anyone had film on their offense-, Chargers, etc

Find one team that's faced superior offenses thus far? Find one team that's faced something even CLOSE to that kind of offensive quality of opponent?

Cliffs:
- Completely owned (by facts, you should try them) again.

I'm curious where you think your facts are. You have not shown any numbers to back up literally anything.

In 2008 Denver scored a pedestrian 23 points per game. See a number...hence fact.

In 2008 Denver allowed 28ppg. A fact. Now you didn't dispute it awfulness, but yes it was bested by the awfulness of McD. I'm not sure why you bring him up though, him being bad has no bearing on Shanahans quality. Another Defense has been worse since outside of the 2010, and that would be the 2013 Redskins. The defense you like to give a pass for playing good offenses....not once considering that them being a bad defense is also a really good reason for giving up huge points. They gave up 40 points to Josh Mcown. Explain how that is because he is elite. Detroit just turned around and shut those Bears down....With Cutler.

Injuries are a valid excuse in isolation, they are not an excuse for a decade of defensive issues. That is why I cannot agree with you on the assumption that he was suddenly going to acquire a bunch of talent to fix the defense....he simply never has. That is a fact.

Please spare me the machismo, I'm not here to "own." I'd rather have a discussion of opinion without cor-magnon chest thumping.

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 09:23 AM
:spit:

Make a post about how gap assignments and responsibilities for the front seven changed at all?

nah, because you are missing the point. As usual.

Rohirrim
11-11-2013, 09:27 AM
Personally, I've always been very happy that Cutler got the boot out of Denver. Biggest dick ever. Really difficult to root for that guy.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 09:27 AM
I'm curious where you think your facts are. You have not shown any numbers to back up literally anything.

In 2008 Denver scored a pedestrian 23 points per game. See a number...hence fact.

In 2008 Denver allowed 28ppg. A fact. Now you didn't dispute it awfulness, but yes it was bested by the awfulness of McD. I'm not sure why you bring him up though, him being bad has no bearing on Shanahans quality.

Scoring O has already been discussed at length... per usual, you declined to address any of the points made.

And what facts would you like supported? NFL.com has all of them. Click "stats" then "team stats" and its very easily sortable. Defensive rankings were based on yardage and the time frame was each coaches career up to Shanahan's firing.

Another Defense has been worse since outside of the 2010, and that would be the 2013 Redskins. The defense you like to give a pass for playing good offenses....not once considering that them being a bad defense is also a really good reason for giving up huge points. They gave up 40 points to Josh Mcown. Explain how that is because he is elite. Detroit just turned around and shut those Bears down....With Cutler.

They gave up 7 points to McCown, actually, and it took nearly the entire game to do it. Also, Washington won, fyi. :welcome:

Injuries are a valid excuse in isolation, they are not an excuse for a decade of defensive issues. That is why I cannot agree with you on the assumption that he was suddenly going to acquire a bunch of talent to fix the defense....he simply never has. That is a fact.

Again, not even remotely true and already covered.

Please spare me the machismo, I'm not here to "own." I'd rather have a discussion of opinion without cor-magnon chest thumping.

Then start approaching the discussion points with something to refute them. As is, through multiple posts you certainly haven't earned the right to be taken seriously from a discussion POV and if you review the past two pages, even you will agree.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 09:28 AM
nah, because you are missing the point. As usual.

I know the actual translation is "I don't know what that even means", but I'll play along:

Then what is the point, Tombstone?

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 09:31 AM
Alright guys, this was fun. Been a while since I've taken the time to completely dominate an entire crowd.

I'm gonna go hit a 4 mile run and then get showered and make my daughter and I lunch. That should buy you guys a solid hour and a half to try and come up with something.

Just to help you all out, might I suggest you all hit the OM chat room during that time and try a brainstorming session?

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 09:32 AM
I know the actual translation is "I don't know what that even means", but I'll play along:

Then what is the point, Tombstone?

The point is that Washington had just signed Albert Haynseworth to a huge deal and it was very much predicated on Hayneworth being in a base 4-3 single gap defense. Well, all Shanny had to do was keep that base 4-3 defense in place and Haynseworth would have stuck around.

That right there is throwing a grenade into the defense. I'm not even going to discuss this farther with you because your head is so far up Shanny's buttocks that I'm afraid you'll suffocate before we are done.

Rohirrim
11-11-2013, 09:33 AM
:kiddingme

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 09:37 AM
We were just one draft away!!!

Some people go full on retard when it comes to Shanahan and Tebow.behold the truth.
the same can be said of champ and von these days.

Eldorado
11-11-2013, 09:38 AM
The point is that Washington had just signed Albert Haynseworth to a huge deal and it was very much predicated on Hayneworth being in a base 4-3 single gap defense. Well, all Shanny had to do was keep that base 4-3 defense in place and Haynseworth would have stuck around.

That right there is throwing a grenade into the defense. I'm not even going to discuss this farther with you because your head is so far up Shanny's buttocks that I'm afraid you'll suffocate before we are done.

That's your ****ing argument? That Albert would have been a good player if not for Shanny?

baja
11-11-2013, 09:39 AM
Your opinion is based on what might have been. All I'm posting is what there actually was. The results sucked. Bowlen realized that Shanahan was stuck in a rut and when he talked to him, realized that things weren't going to change. Keeping Slowik was symbolic of Shanahan's entrenchment. I remember that season people talking about how nobody on the team was even listening to Shanahan anymore. It was over. IMO, Shanahan put Bowlen in a position where he had no choice. 2009 would have been no different.

If Shanny were still here and we were 2 and 14 at season's end rev would be saying with the number two pick in the draft to go along along with the last 5 top 5 picks we will finally have the defense we need to put us over the top "Next year is our year"

Rev would make the perfect Chiefs fan.

"Building a winner for 40 years" ;D

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 09:43 AM
That's your ****ing argument? That Albert would have been a good player if not for Shanny?

The point is that Shanny always ran a base 4-3 in Denver and that for all intents and purposes, this is the defense he understood the best. Then he went to Washington, which had an excellent defense, a 4-3 defense, and had just signed Albert Haynesworth to a huge contract. The thing with Haynesworth is that he only wanted to be a 4-3 DT.

Then Shanny gets hired as the HC and he switches to a base 3-4 defense which immediately puts him at odds with Haynesworth. The rest is history, and the defense has never been the same. Regardless of what anyone argues about how defenses function, the point is Washington had an excellent base 4-3 defense with a dominant interior DT which they had just paid a huge contract to. If Shanny would have just kept the defense as is, all he'd have to do is worry about the offense, right?

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 09:43 AM
^ makes wild assumption with nothing to support it while ignoring multiple fact laden posts

In fact, with only two losing seasons (6-10 and 7-9) almost NOTHING in Shanahan's Denver career supports your opinion...

You guys should really try to bring something to the table. My pimp hand is actually getting sore from destroying all these paper-thin, unsubstantiated opinions so swiftly.shanny is an 8-8 coach, he sucks in the second half of games and he sucks in the second half of the season. he knows little about anything other than designing various formations to disguise a dozen different pass plays. he abandons the run like andy reid and every other pass junkie HC in the NFL, and he does so in the first half ! in his one and ONLY play off game post elway he ran the ball 9 times.
read his book and get back to me with your opinions.

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 09:45 AM
The point is that Shanny always ran a base 4-3 in Denver and that for all intents and purposes, this is the defense he understood the best. Then he went to Washington, which had an excellent defense, a 4-3 defense, and had just signed Albert Haynesworth to a huge contract. The thing with Haynesworth is that he only wanted to be a 4-3 DT.

Then Shanny gets hired as the HC and he switches to a base 3-4 defense which immediately puts him at odds with Haynesworth. The rest is history, and the defense has never been the same. Regardless of what anyone argues about how defenses function, the point is Washington had an excellent base 4-3 defense with a dominant interior DT which they had just paid a huge contract to. If Shanny would have just kept the defense as is, all he'd have to do is worry about the offense, right?
respectfully I disagree, shanny doesnt run ANY defense becvause he ahs absolutely nothing to do with the defense !
other than firing the DC at the end of the season...

Beantown Bronco
11-11-2013, 09:49 AM
The point is that Shanny always ran a base 4-3 in Denver and that for all intents and purposes, this is the defense he understood the best. Then he went to Washington, which had an excellent defense, a 4-3 defense, and had just signed Albert Haynesworth to a huge contract. The thing with Haynesworth is that he only wanted to be a 4-3 DT.

Then Shanny gets hired as the HC and he switches to a base 3-4 defense which immediately puts him at odds with Haynesworth. The rest is history, and the defense has never been the same. Regardless of what anyone argues about how defenses function, the point is Washington had an excellent base 4-3 defense with a dominant interior DT which they had just paid a huge contract to. If Shanny would have just kept the defense as is, all he'd have to do is worry about the offense, right?

Haynesworth started sucking pretty much the minute he signed that deal. A few other teams tried to get anything they could out of him after that (including defensive "genius" Bill Belichick) and he was garbage. 4-3 or 3-4 didn't matter. He was done, checked out and lazy.

baja
11-11-2013, 09:53 AM
It's rev against the rest of the Mane in an epic battle except it is not even a decent fight

It is gratifying to see the self proclaimed OM football expert experiencing a beat down which is growing into epic. LOL

If rev created a board it would be called "rev and Shanny sitting in a tree..."

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 09:53 AM
Haynesworth started sucking pretty much the minute he signed that deal. A few other teams tried to get anything they could out of him after that (including defensive "genius" Bill Belichick) and he was garbage. 4-3 or 3-4 didn't matter. He was done, checked out and lazy.

The skins still paid him a crap load of money so why mess with a good defense? If Shanny would have just played a 4-3 and gotten whatever he could out of Haynesworth it would have still been much better than what he ended up doing IMHO.

Beantown Bronco
11-11-2013, 10:02 AM
The skins still paid him a crap load of money so why mess with a good defense? If Shanny would have just played a 4-3 and gotten whatever he could out of Haynesworth it would have still been much better than what he ended up doing IMHO.

Maybe/maybe not. Keeping the same scheme and personnel from year to year certainly doesn't guarantee anything. The Broncos were the #2 defense in the league last year. No real changes this year to scheme and really just the loss of Von Miller for the first 6 games (DRC has more than stepped up in Champ's absence, same with Philips for Doom, so I'd call those more or less a wash). We're not going to be even close to what we were last year.

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 10:13 AM
Maybe/maybe not. Keeping the same scheme and personnel from year to year certainly doesn't guarantee anything. The Broncos were the #2 defense in the league last year. No real changes this year to scheme and really just the loss of Von Miller for the first 6 games (DRC has more than stepped up in Champ's absence, same with Philips for Doom, so I'd call those more or less a wash). We're not going to be even close to what we were last year.

this season is only at about the half way point too.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 10:20 AM
The point is that Washington had just signed Albert Haynseworth to a huge deal and it was very much predicated on Hayneworth being in a base 4-3 single gap defense. Well, all Shanny had to do was keep that base 4-3 defense in place and Haynseworth would have stuck around.

That right there is throwing a grenade into the defense. I'm not even going to discuss this farther with you because your head is so far up Shanny's buttocks that I'm afraid you'll suffocate before we are done.

Before I run out to lunch... That's your point?

Haynesworth?!?!?!?

Ha!:spit:LOLROFL!Ha!:spit:LOLROFL!

Ladies and gentlemen, the quality of opposition once again on display!

I also imagine from the plethora of TonyR and baja posts that they continue to swing from my nuts to try to validate themselves in my reflection, since they have zero stand alone respect about anything.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 10:21 AM
For some additional context:

Our current record-pace setting offense averages 6.4 yards per play... just .2 yards per play more than 2008's third-year Cutler lead team.

Our current record-pace setting offense is at 50% 3rd down conversion... just 2% more than 2008's third-year Cutler lead team.

And those #s will likely fall as we approach the schedules more defensive oriented teams and winter's effect on passing games.

^ a rep comment pointed out that this is a very important post that went ignored/people hid from since it flies in the face of their manufactured defense-mechanism POV, so quoted to bring it back in.

2KBack
11-11-2013, 10:24 AM
^ This post highlights an incredibly poor understanding of the symbiotic nature of the game.

Short fields score points. Drives that start at your own 10 are much more likely to fizzle out before the endzone than one at the 40. Denver was last in the league in take aways by a large margin

Here's some actual context of how good that offense was:

#2 in the NFL, and a whopping 6.2 yards per play. That's extremely impressive by any standard. More impressive when you contrast it with the team's time of possession ranked 25th in the NFL.

2008's Broncos offense had a #2 in the NFL outstanding 3rd down conversion rate of 48%. That's DYNAMIC. In Jake Plummer's most efficient 3rd down season in Denver he had a 36% rate conversion rate.

Cliffs notes:
- Your anti-Shanahan bull**** spin just got owned again.


Finally saw this....it's pretty. It is also simply digging for the positive spin, the opposite of which you accuse me of. The point of an offense is to score more points. All of this we should be in agreement of. Yards and conversions are all in the name of scoring these points. Denver's average start position that season was their own 26 yard line. A 2 yard difference between 2008 and 2013...is it that 2 yards that is the difference between 40 points per game and 23? That said...I will concede that Shanahan has shown the potential for putting together good offenses. I don't think that one was as elite as you, but that is actually beside the point. I Shouldn't have even mentioned the offense, since that's honestly not what my issues is...which is why I called him a great offensive tactician. His inability to field good defenses....or at least a defense that doesn't get embarrassed against top competition is a larger problem.

I find it odd that you will excuse the Washington defense based on the opponents it faced. To build this imagined Dynasty you need to be able to stop the top competition. He hasn't done that since 1998...kids born that year are playing highschool football. That isn't a small sample size it is 12-13 years of trying to beat the other good teams in the league and failing. He is now in the weakest division in football and it's the same tune. He just got punked by a 1-7 team.

I also mentioned the Nepotism and inconsistent treatment of players. These are all things that the Washington fans have been questioning. All on their own, even without the knowledge of his time in Denver.

fontaine
11-11-2013, 10:36 AM
There's a lot of stuff here.

Can anyone give me the cliff notes of what happened in the last two/three pages?

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 10:36 AM
no shanahan ever acheived anything without a kubiak at his side. or a turner or a gibbs for that matter.
name one decent co-ordinator that shanahn has hired since 1995?
he caught his lightning in a bottle in 95 and bronco fans want to make this figurehead in to something he is not,... a HOF coach.

Eldorado
11-11-2013, 10:42 AM
It's rev against the rest of the Mane in an epic battle except it is not even a decent fight

It is gratifying to see the self proclaimed OM football expert experiencing a beat down which is growing into epic. LOL

If rev created a board it would be called "rev and Shanny sitting in a tree..."

http://designerhigh.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/spongebob-squarepants-stoned.jpg

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 10:44 AM
Finally saw this....it's pretty. It is also simply digging for the positive spin, the opposite of which you accuse me of. The point of an offense is to score more points. All of this we should be in agreement of. Yards and conversions are all in the name of scoring these points. Denver's average start position that season was their own 26 yard line. A 2 yard difference between 2008 and 2013...is it that 2 yards that is the difference between 40 points per game and 23?

Let's start:

1. Your numbers are wrong. Denver's starting FP is currently 29.5 (9th in the league), while Denver's 2008th is correct and ranked dead last in the league. A 5.5 yard average difference over hundreds of drives makes a marked difference.

2. I think it's amusing that to refute the potency of 2008's offense which IS comparable to this season's in MANY categories even before this year hits defensive teams and winter football.

3. Find one post where I say Cutler, Marshall and Sheffler are superior to Manning, DT, Decker, Welker and Thomas... their historic ability to defeat matchups and potentially be the greatest offense of all time in no way should reflect negatively on 2008's team.

So in all, this is a very intellectually dishonest point, which I have no doubts you yourself will admit, BUT at least you're bringing more substance to the table, so I both applaud and rep for you that.

That said...I will concede that Shanahan has shown the potential for putting together good offenses. I don't think that one was as elite as you, but that is actually beside the point. I Shouldn't have even mentioned the offense, since that's honestly not what my issues is...which is why I called him a great offensive tactician. His inability to field good defenses....or at least a defense that doesn't get embarrassed against top competition is a larger problem.

I find it odd that you will excuse the Washington defense based on the opponents it faced. To build this imagined Dynasty you need to be able to stop the top competition. He hasn't done that since 1998...kids born that year are playing highschool football. That isn't a small sample size it is 12-13 years of trying to beat the other good teams in the league and failing. He is now in the weakest division in football and it's the same tune. He just got punked by a 1-7 team.

False. I am NOT excusing Washington's defense based on quality of opponent. I AM saying it's heavily skewed CURRENTLY because of it.

You'll likely have a much different story for them by the end of the season, as you will for Denver as we head away from offensive teams and into defensive ones.

You have a lot of basely opinion after that that I won't bother to address.

Lastly I agree and will also not excuse the Minnesota game. They dominated the first half and definitely gave it away.

I also mentioned the Nepotism and inconsistent treatment of players. These are all things that the Washington fans have been questioning. All on their own, even without the knowledge of his time in Denver.

Nepotism... so do you feel he held Elway down despite that being proven to be false?

Who has he hired you feel is unqualified? Kyle worked his way up to and then ran one of the best offenses in the league before being hired.

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2013, 10:45 AM
Would you like to refute ANY of the pages worth of factually supported posts, or are you just signing your name to unsubstantiated disagreement?

Also, for the "field", what does it feel like to go 5v1 and get completely obliterated?

Usually once you have to go third person to say you completely owned the situation that is far from the truth. There is no point arguing with a tree knot like you because you will just move the goal posts or resort to name calling. You aren't as smart as you wish you were.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 10:46 AM
There's a lot of stuff here.

Can anyone give me the cliff notes of what happened in the last two/three pages?

Easy, Cliffs:

1. Read the Mahabarata.
2. Substitute me for Arjuna of the Pandavas and McFans for Kauravas.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 10:47 AM
Usually once you have to go third person to say you completely owned the situation that is far from the truth. There is no point arguing with a tree knot like you because you will just move the goal posts or resort to name calling. You aren't as smart as you wish you were.

Steps to making a big-boy post:

1. Name one "goal post" I've "moved"

2. Name one factual inaccuracy I've posted

3. Refute ANY of the points I've posted

Steps you've actually taken:

1. ___________________

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2013, 10:53 AM
Steps to making a big-boy post:

1. Name one "goal post" I've "moved"

2. Name one factual inaccuracy I've posted

3. Refute ANY of the points I've posted

Steps you've actually taken:

1. ___________________

For one the historical offense that Shanny assembled was quite funny. Yeah maybe yards wise. I'm sure you will move the goal posts to make an excuse why they couldn't score points. In reality it really isn't even worth my time to walk accross the street to give you a golden shower if you were on fire. It's obvious you have a gay crush on Shanny and he has never done anything wrong in your eyes. Everyone is so stupid and not up to your level even though you are the only constant in all your arguments.

fontaine
11-11-2013, 10:53 AM
Easy, Cliffs:

1. Read the Mahabarata.
2. Substitute me for Arjuna of the Pandavas and McFans for Kauravas.

lol, I love the 'Mane.

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2013, 10:55 AM
Fontaine and Rev should just make a gay porn with the way REV fluff's and sucks him off after every post.

All you need to know.

DENVER WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ONE LOMBARDI IF SHANNY DIDN'T GET THE HOOK. rThis is the gospel by REV who is just a wannabe Jim Rome.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 10:55 AM
For one the historical offense that Shanny assembled was quite funny. Yeah maybe yards wise. I'm sure you will move the goal posts to make an excuse why they couldn't score points. In reality it really isn't even worth my time to walk accross the street to give you a golden shower if you were on fire let alone show your homerism and gay love for shanny. Everyone is so stupid and not up to your level even though you are the only constant in all your arguments.

The only time I said historic was in reference to 2008's protection, which absolutely was, and THIS YEAR'S offense, which absolutely is.

And everyone is "not so stupid". You, however, certainly are, and your post here truly exemplifies it.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 10:59 AM
DENVERDUI55 I have 3 serious questions for you:

1. Why do you have over 40 IP addresses for the Mane?

2. Can you link me to JUST ONE football post you've written that you feel is even mediocre quality?

3. Name one thing I've said in this thread that you disagree with? Before you've attacked me in threads and pages later admitted you even agreed with me all along, such is your quality of intellect.

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 10:59 AM
Fontaine and Rev should just make a gay porn with the way REV fluff's and sucks him off after every post.what these 2 do in the privacy of their own chat room is none of our buisness, and they are entitled to their hero worship / slash opinions of shanahan. I too thought shanny was a genius before the year 2000, then reality took over, and unlike those who have their OTGs permanantly bonded to their skulls, I like so many others allowed myself to see shannys real short-comings !


'the emporor has no clothes"

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 11:04 AM
what these 2 do in the privacy of their own chat room is none of our buisness, and they are entitled to their hero worship / slash opinions of shanahan. I too thought shanny was a genius before the year 2000, then reality took over, and unlike those who have their OTGs permanantly bonded to their skulls, I like so many others allowed myself to see shannys real short-comings !


'the emporor has no clothes"

CHEF LUIGI highlights:

it has been very well documented that shanny did not want JE coming around stealing the limelight from shanny after JFE left the building. few if ANY former broncos where welcome at dove valley or along the sidelines of games. SHANNY wanted to make sure than nobody would suggest that anyone other than shanny was in charge and leading/ motivating HIS broncos.well documented.
when have you EVER heard shanny praise gibbs or turner... EVER ?

http://nflredskins.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ned7333.jpg?w=450&h=300

Also, fyi: http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2010/redskins-hire-bobby-turner-as-associate-head-coach/

sorry I fail to see any bronco uniforms in that picture !
like I said, well documented that shanny did not want any former broncos around in the new millenium. all this picture proves is that shanny has a new PR agent and TD needs a paycheck.

TD wanted to see if he'd like coaching so Shanahan brought him to intern during camp. So that debunks everything you said there.

Oh, you want more evidence? Gary Kubiak himself is a fantastic example, also Keith Burns is his special teams coordinator. In fact, name ONE coach who surrounds himself with more of his legendary players?

Again, there's NOTHING to support your completely unsubstantiated opinion.

I'll ask again since you conveniently ignored it:

Elway ran the Colorado Crush through 2008... Shanahan was fired at the very start of 2009.

So what time window is it that Elway would've even been pursuing working for the Broncos under Shanahan?

maybe you can find an article where shanny actually gives credit to turner in a public statement, just one statement since 1995?

Sure.

From when they NAMED HIM ASSISTANT HEAD COACH (as if that isn't praise enough...):

"Not many coaches can match the success that Bobby has had over the years," Shanahan said in a statement. "He is one of the top coaches in the NFL and, more importantly, a great person. We are excited to have him on the staff here in Washington. He will play a major role in the development of our offense."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/bobby-turner-officially-named.html

I just get bothered when they talk about shannys ability to run the ball or shannys zone blocking scheme as if shanny had any clue about either !
pass plays and formations, this is the sum total of shanahans expertise, period.
he is an inflated QB coach/ WR coach, he has no other expertise.

Mike Shanahan was the 49ers Offensive Coordinator from 1992-1994

In 1994, the 49ers had the #6 rushing offense in the league.
In 1993, the 49ers had the #3 rushing offense in the league.
In 1992, the 49ers had the #3 rushing offense in the league.

From 1992-1994, Bobby Turner was coaching Purdue.
From 1992-1994, Alex Gibbs was coaching the Colts (92) and Chiefs (93-94).

The level of blatant un-appreciation, disloyalty, disrespect and the level of dishonesty required to achieve it used by you people completely disgusts me--physically even. I genuinely hope I never have the displeasure of experiencing people of this kind of "character" in my personal life.

You have been destroyed in this thread at levels that haven't been rivaled. Ever. Not even by admitted-pedophile baja.

cutthemdown
11-11-2013, 11:10 AM
Baja is a pedo? lol No wonder he lives in another country. Way more children to buy.

DENVERDUI55
11-11-2013, 11:10 AM
[QUOTE]DENVERDUI55 I have 3 serious questions for you:

1. Why do you have over 40 IP addresses for the Mane?

I take it you don't know how IP addresses work. Is there only 40? I figured between my several smart phones, 3 laptops, 5 desktops, and the numerous hotel computers I've used over the years it would be in the 100's.

2. Can you link me to JUST ONE football post you've written that you feel is even mediocre quality? You have REPPED me several.

3. Name one thing I've said in this thread that you disagree with? Before you've attacked me in threads and pages later admitted you even agreed with me all along, such is your quality of intellect.

This thread for one just that Denver would win a SB with Shanny running the show in Denver.

The Manning told Whiz he wanted to play in AZ. When you were asked to provide proof you just said "It is none of your business!"

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 11:14 AM
Baja is a pedo? lol No wonder he lives in another country. Way more children to buy.

Baja "Little boys are hard-wired to want it". Naturally he deleted the post, but not before MANY people saw it.

I cannot FATHOM why people here turn a blind eye to something that unspeakable.

I take it you don't know how IP addresses work. Is there only 40? I figured between my several smart phones, 3 laptops, 5 desktops, and the numerous hotel computers I've used over the years it would be in the 100's.

You have REPPED me several.



This thread for one just that Denver would win a SB with Shanny running the show in Denver.

The Manning told Whiz he wanted to play in AZ. When you were asked to provide proof you just said "It is none of your business!"

So "nothing"?

Thought so.

DBroncos4life
11-11-2013, 11:15 AM
CHEF LUIGI highlights:





















You have been destroyed in this thread at levels that haven't been rivaled. Ever. Not even by admitted-pedophile baja.

I would bet anything that CHEF is also man-baccus/guess who.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 11:17 AM
I would bet anything that CHEF is also man-baccus/guess who.

Na, I know who that is.

Very, very different.

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 11:18 AM
Before I run out to lunch... That's your point?

Haynesworth?!?!?!?

Ha!:spit:LOLROFL!Ha!:spit:LOLROFL!

Ladies and gentlemen, the quality of opposition once again on display!

I also imagine from the plethora of TonyR and baja posts that they continue to swing from my nuts to try to validate themselves in my reflection, since they have zero stand alone respect about anything.

see my other posts on this subject, then remove your head from Shanny's sphincter.

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 11:18 AM
asd a man destroyed I feel pretty good. think I will go for a walk.

cutthemdown
11-11-2013, 11:20 AM
Wow so Baja's a pedo. I don't see rev saying he saw that if he didn't. Can't believe Baja didn't have to answer for saying that about little boys. What a pedo freak.

cutthemdown
11-11-2013, 11:21 AM
So Baja how young do you go and is that why you really live in Mexico? Uh maybe have to register in the good ole usa LOL! Bwaaaa!

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 11:22 AM
see my other posts on this subject, then remove your head from Shanny's sphincter.

Tombstone,

I refuted all of them with points of substance.

You declined to respond to any of those points.

You're more than welcome to scroll back, witness this reality, and address those posts.

As of now, the most substance you've brought to any post regarding Shanahan revolves around "the great" Albert Haynesworth "having to 2-gap".

I actually like you and I'm rooting for you here, bud. If you PM me, I'll even help you make some counter-points against me, okay?

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 11:23 AM
asd a man destroyed I feel pretty good. think I will go for a walk.

Ha!

Repped! I think your opinions and conclusion are pretty dreadful, but I totally dig your style.

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 11:25 AM
Tombstone,

I refuted all of them with points of substance.

You declined to respond to any of those points.

You're more than welcome to scroll back, witness this reality, and address those posts.

As of now, the most substance you've brought to any post regarding Shanahan revolves around "the great" Albert Haynesworth "having to 2-gap".

I actually like you and I'm rooting for you here, bud. If you PM me, I'll even help you make some counter-points against me, okay?

see post 206. I know your MO Rev, you like to make things complicated in order to win an argument. Unfortunately you lose sight of the forrest through the trees.

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 11:26 AM
I would bet anything that CHEF is also man-baccus/guess who.I am not hiding my identity.
I posted as ZAMBINI at the freak.
I have been a bronco fan as long as the broncos have been in existence! i watched them play their first scrimage in those used uniforms from the first copperbowl.
i saw them lose to the DU football team in a scrimmage at Bear's stadium.
I was in the south stands when turner faked his FG against the raiders and caught a TD pass instead !

these are my broncos, be glad i allow you to share them with me, and forgive me if my opinions are based on reality and not blind hero worship.
I now return you to your sitorted sense of reality.

2KBack
11-11-2013, 11:27 AM
Let's start:

1. Your numbers are wrong. Denver's starting FP is currently 29.5 (9th in the league), while Denver's 2008th is correct and ranked dead last in the league. A 5.5 yard average difference over hundreds of drives makes a marked difference.

2. I think it's amusing that to refute the potency of 2008's offense which IS comparable to this season's in MANY categories even before this year hits defensive teams and winter football.

3. Find one post where I say Cutler, Marshall and Sheffler are superior to Manning, DT, Decker, Welker and Thomas... their historic ability to defeat matchups and potentially be the greatest offense of all time in no way should reflect negatively on 2008's team.

So in all, this is a very intellectually dishonest point, which I have no doubts you yourself will admit, BUT at least you're bringing more substance to the table, so I both applaud and rep for you that.



False. I am NOT excusing Washington's defense based on quality of opponent. I AM saying it's heavily skewed CURRENTLY because of it.

You'll likely have a much different story for them by the end of the season, as you will for Denver as we head away from offensive teams and into defensive ones.

You have a lot of basely opinion after that that I won't bother to address.

Lastly I agree and will also not excuse the Minnesota game. They dominated the first half and definitely gave it away.



Nepotism... so do you feel he held Elway down despite that being proven to be false?

Who has he hired you feel is unqualified? Kyle worked his way up to and then ran one of the best offenses in the league before being hired.

I'll cop to the fact that I don't have much regarding the 2008 offense. I do know that it let us down several times in the second half of the season. Most notably during the famous crash going 0-3 while needing 1 win to make the playoffs (the defense didn't help, but again there's that discussion of defense again). We will see if this season is affected as winter rolls in as you say.

We will see how Washington plays out. Personally I don't see things going well...but that is my opinion.

As for the Nepotism. I don't buy that Kyle would have been hired for any other team in the league. He worked for Shanny's buddy in Kubiak and then for his dad. In time he might have made a name for himself, but for now he is still junior (and quite unpopular in Washington, based on what my Skin fan friends opinions). Public enemy #1 at the moment is Keith Burns though, who has been completely unprepared and overwhelmed as a coordinator. The next step will be who is the next DC. We will see if it's another member of his inner circle.

TheReverend
11-11-2013, 11:27 AM
Wow so Baja's a pedo. I don't see rev saying he saw that if he didn't. Can't believe Baja didn't have to answer for saying that about little boys. What a pedo freak.

Baja makes Blueflame feel pretty so she deletes the threads where it gets brought up, but for convenience instead of digging up quotes all the time, I took a screenshot of it:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/PedoBaja_zpsf634a2b5.png

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 11:29 AM
Ha!

Repped! I think your opinions and conclusion are pretty dreadful, but I totally dig your style.my coin in your plate too Rev, I am just hear to share an honest opinion and make some folks laugh along the way.
no anamosity, no harm intended.
we all love our broncos and want the same finish to our season.
go broncos !

cutthemdown
11-11-2013, 11:31 AM
Thanks Rev i did not know about all that. Sounds like a pedo coverup to me lol.

Eldorado
11-11-2013, 11:32 AM
see post 206. I know your MO Rev, you like to make things complicated in order to win an argument. Unfortunately you lose sight of the forrest through the trees.

ok. I checked out 206. What the **** is your MO? Say stupid ****, back it up with zero facts, get owned, and pretend you had a good argument?

CHEF LUIGI
11-11-2013, 11:37 AM
ok. I checked out 206. What the **** is your MO? Say stupid ****, back it up with zero facts, get owned, and pretend you had a good argument?its common practice for a poster to declare himself the victor and owner of any other poster.
such declarations have the same value of yesterdays used toilet paper.
when another poster claims he owned me i appreciate being so coveted.
its nice to be wanted.

Tombstone RJ
11-11-2013, 11:38 AM
ok. I checked out 206. What the **** is your MO? Say stupid ****, back it up with zero facts, get owned, and pretend you had a good argument?

Hey look everyone, it's Rev's bff! Dude, Shanny did what he did and the defense has never been the same, that's my point.