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Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 09:04 AM
China calls for "de-Americanized" world economy.
http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/14/20957509-china-state-media-blasts-us-shutdown-calls-for-a-de-americanized-world?lite

“If we are really rational, I cannot imagine why someone would dare to bear this kind of responsibility because any real default will have a huge impact not only on the U.S. and China, but on the global economy,” said Professor Zhao Longkai, a dean at the Guanghua School of Management at Beijing University. “It’s hard for us to imagine anyone can be that crazy to push the limit to that level.”


Meanwhile, this is the minority jerking the strings of America and the world:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/cartoons/2012/7/29/1343582752621/Tea-Party-supporters-006.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/308796/thumbs/r-TEA-PARTY-DEBT-CEILING-large570.jpg

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/american-politics-economy/21642d1279154583-naacp-condemns-racism-tea-party-2qbd65s.jpg

How the hell did we get here?

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 09:15 AM
Why that's not happening.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/07/30/how-big-is-chinas-debt-here-are-the-best-guesses/

http://www.theguardian.com/local-government-network/2013/aug/09/chinese-local-government-debt-timebomb

China's current model is more unsustainable than ours. Now let's pull back a bit from the idea of trying to be more like them.

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 09:20 AM
Why that's not happening.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/07/30/how-big-is-chinas-debt-here-are-the-best-guesses/

http://www.theguardian.com/local-government-network/2013/aug/09/chinese-local-government-debt-timebomb

China's current model is more unsustainable than ours. Now let's pull back a bit from the idea of trying to be more like them.

I have never seen a point made on this board that you have been able to grasp.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 09:31 AM
I have never seen a point made on this board that you have been able to grasp.

The sky is falling is rarely an accurate observation.

houghtam
10-14-2013, 09:32 AM
I have never seen a point made on this board that you have been able to grasp.

x 2

Swing and a miss.

Rigs11
10-14-2013, 09:37 AM
http://apocalypseknow.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tea-party-tea-party-political-poster-1283712026.jpg

Rigs11
10-14-2013, 09:39 AM
http://cdn.motinetwork.net/politifake.org/image/political/1004/the-tea-party-tea-party-idiots-wingnuts-rethugs-losers-obama-political-poster-1272695337.jpgHilarious!

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 09:45 AM
x 2

Swing and a miss.

Ah, so China is going to lead the world to a brave new reserve currency world because... while they can't even really tell anyone how far they are in debt, they're convinced that some heated political debate over public debt creates too much uncertainty. LOL

And you're giving them an Amen!. :)

Rigs11
10-14-2013, 09:51 AM
Quit defending these nutjobs

Tea Partyers shout racist slur at White House cops: “Looks like something out of Kenya”

Wow. I’ve been to many a protest at the White House, and I’ve never seen people belittle the police like the Sarah Palin / Ted Cruz Tea Party protesters did today. There’s video, and it’s awful.

Calling the police protecting the White House “brownshirts,” laughing at them, and then one guy says “looks like something out of Kenya.”

The fanciful notion that President Obama was born in Kenya – he was in fact born in Hawaii – is a common racist slur that Tea Party adherents and other conservative Republicans use against the President.

Keep in mind these are the same people who brought confederate flags to the protest. As Peter Sylwester noted on Twitter, “Perhaps the Confederate flag mob will move next to reopen the Lincoln Memorial.”


As background, the Tea Party, which is responsible for shutting down the federal government, decided to hold a rally today protesting their own government shutdown. The rally was led by GOP Senator, and shutdown author, Ted Cruz, and shutdown supporter Sarah Palin. Ostensibly, they were upset that the World War II memorial was shut down in their shutdown. They were not picketing, however, the cessation of cancer treatments at NIH, or the lack of death benefits for US troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan after the shutdown began.

Yes, the Tea Party turned out in force to protest their own government shutdown, and they chose to march to the White House and blame the President for a shutdown they all wanted to happen, and had planned, in the first place.

http://americablog.com/2013/10/tea-partyers-shout-racist-slurs-white-house-cops-looks-like-something-kenya.html

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 09:53 AM
Quit defending these nutjobs

Tea Partyers shout racist slur at White House cops: “Looks like something out of Kenya”

Wow. I’ve been to many a protest at the White House, and I’ve never seen people belittle the police like the Sarah Palin / Ted Cruz Tea Party protesters did today. There’s video, and it’s awful.

Calling the police protecting the White House “brownshirts,” laughing at them, and then one guy says “looks like something out of Kenya.”

The fanciful notion that President Obama was born in Kenya – he was in fact born in Hawaii – is a common racist slur that Tea Party adherents and other conservative Republicans use against the President.

Keep in mind these are the same people who brought confederate flags to the protest. As Peter Sylwester noted on Twitter, “Perhaps the Confederate flag mob will move next to reopen the Lincoln Memorial.”


As background, the Tea Party, which is responsible for shutting down the federal government, decided to hold a rally today protesting their own government shutdown. The rally was led by GOP Senator, and shutdown author, Ted Cruz, and shutdown supporter Sarah Palin. Ostensibly, they were upset that the World War II memorial was shut down in their shutdown. They were not picketing, however, the cessation of cancer treatments at NIH, or the lack of death benefits for US troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan after the shutdown began.

Yes, the Tea Party turned out in force to protest their own government shutdown, and they chose to march to the White House and blame the President for a shutdown they all wanted to happen, and had planned, in the first place.

http://americablog.com/2013/10/tea-partyers-shout-racist-slurs-white-house-cops-looks-like-something-kenya.html

I'm not defending them. Just saying one should resist the temptation to fight paranoia with paranoia. :)

houghtam
10-14-2013, 09:54 AM
Ah, so China is going to lead the world to a brave new reserve currency world because... while they can't even really tell anyone how far they are in debt, they're convinced that some heated political debate over public debt creates too much uncertainty. LOL

And you're giving them an Amen!. :)

Hilarious!

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 10:01 AM
I'm not defending them. Just saying one should resist the temptation to fight paranoia with paranoia. :)

Paranoia? So, the Tea Party fanatics haven't driven America to the edge of default and left the world shuddering in uncertainty? It's all just paranoia?

houghtam
10-14-2013, 10:04 AM
Paranoia? So, the Tea Party fanatics haven't driven America to the edge of default and left the world shuddering in uncertainty? It's all just paranoia?

Yes, and refusing to pay bills you've already promised to pay is just "heated political debate".

LOL

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 10:08 AM
The sky is falling is rarely an accurate observation.

My point had nothing whatsoever to do with "being more like China." For you to infer it I take as an insult. You are either a very stupid person who cannot grasp the simplest idea, or you think that by twisting the words of others into their opposite meaning it might make you seem like a very clever little juvenile.

China is very rightfully paranoid over what America might do. The rest of the world is very rightfully paranoid as well. If America defaults, many economies could very conceivably crash, and crash big. It's not a joke. It shows how ignorant the fanatics who are pulling the GOP's strings truly are.

ant1999e
10-14-2013, 10:08 AM
You know what would be nice? Politicians actually fulfilling the promises they made while campaigning once they're in office. Doing what those who elected them want them to do.

ant1999e
10-14-2013, 10:10 AM
I'm not defending them. Just saying one should resist the temptation to fight paranoia with paranoia. :)

The right has terrorism and the left has this.

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 10:11 AM
You know what would be nice? Politicians actually fulfilling the promises they made while campaigning once they're in office. Doing what those who elected them want them to do.

I think the representatives of the Tea Party districts are doing exactly what their constituency wants them to do: They're bringing down the American government.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 10:12 AM
Paranoia? So, the Tea Party fanatics haven't driven America to the edge of default and left the world shuddering in uncertainty? It's all just paranoia?

The sun rises.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-11-13/news/8503180451_1_debt-ceiling-debt-limit-short-term-extension

The sun sets.

Only the memories change.

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 10:14 AM
The right has terrorism and the left has this.

What an odd idea. The Right Wing fanatics scream for thirty years that they want to "...shrink government until they can drown it in the bathtub" and then, when they bring the United States to the brink of default, change their demands all over the place, and still refuse to compromise, the other side is being "paranoid?" Maybe we're just taking you at your words?

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 10:16 AM
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-11-01/news/8503140923_1_debt-limit-deficit-plan-debt-ceiling

The administration and Senate leaders have been trying to force House Democrats into compromising on the budget proposal by warning that the government is running out of money and will have to cancel securities held by the Social Security funds if there is no extension of the debt limit.

LOL

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 10:23 AM
The sun rises.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-11-13/news/8503180451_1_debt-ceiling-debt-limit-short-term-extension

The sun sets.

Only the memories change.

A short term extension until December? You think it's over? What will happen in December? I'll tell you what will happen: The Tea Party Fanatics will simply use this seven weeks to gather their hysteria for another major shutdown push over Obamacare, or spending, or whatever else suits their fancy at the moment. If you think this is normal government, you're a fool. This is government by crisis. Government's act like this right around the time they fall, or devolve into civil war. The U.S. government is polling at its worst in history and half the media are celebrating. The Tea Party fanatics think they're on a holy mission. A jihad. They've already proved they are very close to having enough power to get what they need.

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 10:27 AM
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-11-01/news/8503140923_1_debt-limit-deficit-plan-debt-ceiling



LOL

1985 for the deflection. Pathetic.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 10:29 AM
A short term extension until December? You think it's over? What will happen in December? I'll tell you what will happen: The Tea Party Fanatics will simply use this seven weeks to gather their hysteria for another major shutdown push over Obamacare, or spending, or whatever else suits their fancy at the moment. If you think this is normal government, you're a fool. This is government by crisis. Government's act like this right around the time they fall, or devolve into civil war. The U.S. government is polling at its worst in history and half the media are celebrating. The Tea Party fanatics think they're on a holy mission. A jihad. They've already proved they are very close to having enough power to get what they need.

Debt Limit Grandstanding Is, Was, and Always Will Be. When the Executive and Legislative are in opposition, you can absolutely bank on it.

As far as short term extensions? Big deal. The last extension wasn't all that long ago. In my eyes it only gives you guys more opportunities to cry about the end being near only to be disappointed yet again.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 10:31 AM
1985 for the deflection. Pathetic.

Lolz. Pointing out where in history something is the rule rather than the exception is "deflecting"

I can go back to 2006 again also if you like. Only difference there was Democrats didn't have the power to follow through on their empty threats.

It's pretty rich though to know that the guy who says others "deflect" would fall back on the argument of "Well at least my guys' threats were empty and hollow!" :)

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 10:35 AM
Debt Limit Grandstanding Is, Was, and Always Will Be. When the Executive and Legislative are in opposition, you can absolutely bank on it.

As far as short term extensions? Big deal. The last extension wasn't all that long ago. In my eyes it only gives you guys more opportunities to cry about the end being near only to be disappointed yet again.

You'd almost think it was the Left dreaming up these crises de jour the way you Right Wingers talk about it. I'm always fascinated at how the Right throws **** all over the place and then complains about the smell.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 10:38 AM
You'd almost think it was the Left dreaming up these crises de jour the way you Right Wingers talk about it. I'm always fascinated at how the Right throws **** all over the place and then complains about the smell.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I just said the whole thing was inevitable when power is split. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you just said.

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 10:38 AM
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/340013/81/Rallier-tells-Obama-to-put-the-Quran-down

"I call upon all of you to wage a second American nonviolent revolution, to use civil disobedience, and to demand that this president leave town, to get up, to put the Quran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come out with his hands up," said Larry Klayman of Freedom Watch, a conservative political advocacy group.

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 11:08 AM
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/340013/81/Rallier-tells-Obama-to-put-the-Quran-down

"I call upon all of you to wage a second American nonviolent revolution, to use civil disobedience, and to demand that this president leave town, to get up, to put the Quran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come out with his hands up," said Larry Klayman of Freedom Watch, a conservative political advocacy group.

Which would be laughable, if this was not an organization backed by billionaires.

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 11:09 AM
Uh, I'm pretty sure I just said the whole thing was inevitable when power is split. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you just said.

Bull****. Split? No. We now have a growing contingent on the Right that no longer believes in our form of government. This is why your pathetic deflections of "precedence" are such a fail.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 11:58 AM
Bull****. Split? No. We now have a growing contingent on the Right that no longer believes in our form of government. This is why your pathetic deflections of "precedence" are such a fail.

You're saying control of the government isn't split?

ant1999e
10-14-2013, 12:19 PM
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/340013/81/Rallier-tells-Obama-to-put-the-Quran-down

"I call upon all of you to wage a second American nonviolent revolution, to use civil disobedience, and to demand that this president leave town, to get up, to put the Quran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come out with his hands up," said Larry Klayman of Freedom Watch, a conservative political advocacy group.
That's an ignorant and irresponsible statement.

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 01:47 PM
That's an ignorant and irresponsible statement.

Yep. Disturbing isn't it.

But the TeaParty idiots ate it up.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 01:52 PM
Yep. Disturbing isn't it.

But the TeaParty idiots ate it up.

Do you honestly believe similar crazy doesn't live over on the Occupy side of the street? :)

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 02:02 PM
You can find crazy on all sides.

What's your point?

DenverBrit
10-14-2013, 02:08 PM
The roots of the Tea Party movement, in case we forget.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kC5MT2r5U8s/TEBCIGGzxbI/AAAAAAAAPmg/uPZNGZh_lBY/s1600/Tea+Klux+Klan+Racist+Signs.jpg

Rigs11
10-14-2013, 02:15 PM
Yep no big deal...

Crisis cost? Lost jobs and maybe another recession

Share on Facebook Twitter LinkedIn GooglePlus Email 3 hours ago

From the fiscal cliff to sequestration to the current shutdown debt ceiling debate: What's the cost of the U.S. government careening from crisis to crisis?


About 900,000 jobs lost ... and the potential for another recession.

That's the conclusion of a new report prepared by research firm Macroeconomic Advisers for the Peter G. Peterson Foundation.

The report examines the macroeconomic effects of the various political battles between Congress and the White House over the last few years. It concludes that the resulting "fiscal drag, in combination with heightened fiscal uncertainty, has slowed the annualized rate of growth in the nation's gross domestic product by as much as 1 percentage point since 2010."

In addition, the report concludes that crisis-driven government and the resulting fiscal policy uncertainty has directly harmed the U.S. economy by increasing the unemployment rate by 0.6 percent, or the equivalent of 900,000 jobs.

The report seems to quantify what many executives and economists have argued in the last few weeks: that the inability of Congress and the White House to come to terms on budget and debt issues creates uncertainty that discourages investment and ultimately hurts the national economy.

"And while the government shutdown is, for now, more economic inconvenience than catastrophe, the consequences stemming from the failure to increase the debt ceiling could cause the next recession, even if the U.S. does not default on its debt," the report warned.

The entire report is available here.

The Peterson foundation was established by billionaire Peter G. Peterson, founder of the Blackstone Group and a commerce secretary under then-President Richard Nixon, to promote awareness of fiscal issues.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/crisis-cost-lost-jobs-maybe-another-recession-8C11390914#crisis-cost-lost-jobs-maybe-another-recession-8C11390914

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 02:17 PM
The roots of the Tea Party movement, in case we forget.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kC5MT2r5U8s/TEBCIGGzxbI/AAAAAAAAPmg/uPZNGZh_lBY/s1600/Tea+Klux+Klan+Racist+Signs.jpg

They sound kinda like Joe Biden. :)

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 02:18 PM
You can find crazy on all sides.

What's your point?

What's the point? That is my point. :)

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 02:29 PM
I wouldn't say it's the root. Rather I'd say it's the fertilizer that a group of Billionaires used to grow their hate group in the guise of grass roots Patriotism to enthrall the ignorant, uneducated, bigoted masses who are angry, fearful and frustrated.

DenverBrit
10-14-2013, 02:29 PM
They sound kinda like Joe Biden. :)

Nah, it's all Tea Party, Cruz, Palin and Bachmann.....among others.

When will the GOP say 'enough' and isolate these bigots and idiots before they become the face of the GOP??

DenverBrit
10-14-2013, 02:33 PM
I wouldn't say it's the root. Rather I'd say it's the fertilizer that a group of Billionaires used to grow their hate group in the guise of grass roots Patriotism to enthrall the ignorant, uneducated, bigoted masses who are angry, fearful and frustrated.

Sounds about right.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 02:39 PM
Nah, it's all Tea Party, Cruz, Palin and Bachmann.....among others.

When will the GOP say 'enough' and isolate these bigots and idiots before they become the face of the GOP??

So you've got one Senator. a lady who once held office in Alaska, and a rep from Minnesota who's retiring?

Oh, none of which said anything resembling your propagraphic?

Do you really want me to look up crazy Occupiers holding crazier signs? Would that prove anything?

Do I need to find House Dems crazy-jousting Bachmann? Do you doubt that I could?

Why is 90% of the argument always about the 10% on the margins?

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 02:41 PM
Do you honestly believe similar crazy doesn't live over on the Occupy side of the street? :)

With any political clout? No. Zero.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 02:56 PM
With any political clout? No. Zero.

Who are you talking about?

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 02:56 PM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/cartoons/2012/7/29/1343582752621/Tea-Party-supporters-006.jpg

Look at the Captain America guy in the background. Bwahahahaaaa

10-1 he's got a custom made fathead of Ron Paul in teabags & minuteman hat in his mom's basement right above his Cheetos stained futon.

Bwahahahahaaaa.

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 02:59 PM
Who are you talking about?

There are lots of crazy people in this world. Look at yourself, for example. How many of them have billionaire "think tanks" backing their cockamamie world view and funding elections for them?

ant1999e
10-14-2013, 03:01 PM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/cartoons/2012/7/29/1343582752621/Tea-Party-supporters-006.jpg

Look at the Captain America guy in the background. Bwahahahaaaa

10-1 he's got a custom made fathead of Ron Paul in teabags & minuteman hat in his mom's basement right above his Cheetos stained futon.

Bwahahahahaaaa.

You in 2nd grade?

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 03:08 PM
There are lots of crazy people in this world. Look at yourself, for example. How many of them have billionaire "think tanks" backing their cockamamie world view and funding elections for them?

Yet have a think-tank driven almost entirely by the Trillion dollar Bureaucratic Regime, and you'll quote it verbatim all day, every day. LOL

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 03:21 PM
Yet have a think-tank driven almost entirely by the Trillion dollar Bureaucratic Regime, and you'll quote it verbatim all day, every day. LOL

In other words, your point was, once again, complete bull****, so in response you'll quickly try and change the subject. Same ole, same ole.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 03:29 PM
In other words, your point was, once again, complete bull****, so in response you'll quickly try and change the subject. Same ole, same ole.

I'd just like something more specific than some rally signs. Everyone has those. But if you want to go there, we can get all truthered up if you want. I mean we all know your crazies excel in that particular area of study. LOL

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0411/More_than_half_of_Democrats_believed_Bush_knew.htm l

DenverBrit
10-14-2013, 05:02 PM
So you've got one Senator. a lady who once held office in Alaska, and a rep from Minnesota who's retiring?

Oh, none of which said anything resembling your propagraphic?

Do you really want me to look up crazy Occupiers holding crazier signs? Would that prove anything?

Do I need to find House Dems crazy-jousting Bachmann? Do you doubt that I could?

Why is 90% of the argument always about the 10% on the margins?

Are you denying the Tea Party was awash with offensive racist signs when they first began their 'parades'?

Only after the outcry did they put their signs away. But you don't put your 'bigotry' and 'racism' away as easily. They just stop advertising it.

As for your offer to dig up the Occupy signs, if they are racist too, I'm equally against them. But they are not the ones threatening the economy if they don't get their way.

Stupid false equivalency.

And what does 'propagraphic' have to do with anything?

houghtam
10-14-2013, 06:24 PM
Are you denying the Tea Party was awash with offensive racist signs when they first began their 'parades'?

Only after the outcry did they put their signs away. But you don't put your 'bigotry' and 'racism' away as easily. They just stop advertising it.

As for your offer to dig up the Occupy signs, if they are racist too, I'm equally against them. But they are not the ones threatening the economy if they don't get their way.

Stupid false equivalency.

And what does 'propagraphic' have to do with anything?

And Beavis and/or other conservatives coming in claiming your intolerance for their bigotry is, in fact, bigotry in 3...2...1...

Garcia Bronco
10-14-2013, 06:32 PM
Why is 90% of the argument always about the 10% on the margins?

Well said.

Garcia Bronco
10-14-2013, 06:34 PM
I wouldn't say it's the root. Rather I'd say it's the fertilizer that a group of Billionaires used to grow their hate group in the guise of grass roots Patriotism to enthrall the ignorant, uneducated, bigoted masses who are angry, fearful and frustrated.

Then you have something in common with them. They would say the same of you. Hmmm

DenverBrit
10-14-2013, 06:48 PM
So you've got one Senator. a lady who once held office in Alaska, and a rep from Minnesota who's retiring?

Oh, none of which said anything resembling your propagraphic?

Do you really want me to look up crazy Occupiers holding crazier signs? Would that prove anything?

Do I need to find House Dems crazy-jousting Bachmann? Do you doubt that I could?

Why is 90% of the argument always about the 10% on the margins?

Really?? That 10% of extremism is controlling the actions of a GOP majority Congress. Try again.

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 07:59 PM
Really?? That 10% of extremism is controlling the actions of a GOP majority Congress. Try again.

Who was controlling every Senate Democrat in 2006?

peacepipe
10-14-2013, 08:09 PM
Who was controlling every Senate Democrat in 2006?

certainly not the fringe of our party.

Rohirrim
10-14-2013, 08:11 PM
Who was controlling every Senate Democrat in 2006?

Captain Equivalency strikes again!

BroncoBeavis
10-14-2013, 08:18 PM
Captain Equivalency strikes again!

I'm just waiting for the explanation of how voting the way virtually every Democrat voted in 2006 makes you 'controlled by the fringe'

Anyone???

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 08:57 PM
Then you have something in common with them. They would say the same of you. Hmmm

That made no sense.

I take it 'They' are 'you'. ;)

DenverBrit
10-14-2013, 09:17 PM
Who was controlling every Senate Democrat in 2006?

We are talking about the current debacle that is an embarrassment to the vast majority of Americans.

Obviously, you're not one of them.

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 09:31 PM
You in 2nd grade?

Did this hit too close to home? Are you going as Captain America for Halloween?

Missouribronc
10-14-2013, 09:35 PM
Always thoroughly amazed at the people who think a balanced budget is not obtainable, and how they vilify those who know it can be done.

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 10:01 PM
Always thoroughly amazed at the people who think a balanced budget is not obtainable, and how they vilify those who know it can be done.

Yeah, that's why they're being vilified. ;)

peacepipe
10-14-2013, 10:20 PM
Always thoroughly amazed at the people who think a balanced budget is not obtainable, and how they vilify those who know it can be done.balancing the budget is obtainable, it's just that idiots who think cuts alone will do it are easy targets.

Bronco Yoda
10-14-2013, 10:31 PM
China calls for "de-Americanized" world economy.
http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/14/20957509-china-state-media-blasts-us-shutdown-calls-for-a-de-americanized-world?lite

“If we are really rational, I cannot imagine why someone would dare to bear this kind of responsibility because any real default will have a huge impact not only on the U.S. and China, but on the global economy,” said Professor Zhao Longkai, a dean at the Guanghua School of Management at Beijing University. “It’s hard for us to imagine anyone can be that crazy to push the limit to that level.”


Meanwhile, this is the minority jerking the strings of America and the world:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/cartoons/2012/7/29/1343582752621/Tea-Party-supporters-006.jpg

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/308796/thumbs/r-TEA-PARTY-DEBT-CEILING-large570.jpg

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/american-politics-economy/21642d1279154583-naacp-condemns-racism-tea-party-2qbd65s.jpg

How the hell did we get here?


http://madmikesamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Koch-brothers-flag.jpg

Fedaykin
10-14-2013, 10:39 PM
Always thoroughly amazed at the people who think a balanced budget is not obtainable, and how they vilify those who know it can be done.

A balanced budget is absolutely obtainable, but this is not the way to go about it. It's economic suicide.

Blart
10-14-2013, 11:39 PM
Palin just posted this on her facebook, nice little catch 22 she's created:

(Obama) Defaulting on our national debt is an impeachable offense, and any attempt by President Obama to unilaterally raise the debt limit without Congress is also an impeachable offense.

Taco John
10-14-2013, 11:40 PM
The people trying to control the costs will always be vilified by those who believe we can borrow our way to prosperity. The only thing to do is accomplish as much as you can with the time that you have to accomplish it in.

The thing that Republicans have going for them is that Obamacare's web site roll out is just the tip of the ice berg. Most people haven't seen their new premiums yet. When they do, that's when they'll really start to understand what this fight is all about and they'll question whose side they're on. The ones trying to derail this law, or the ones who just doubled and tripled their insurance premiums.

It doesn't take a crystal ball to see where this thing is going.

Fedaykin
10-14-2013, 11:50 PM
The people trying to control the costs will always be vilified by those who believe we can borrow our way to prosperity. The only thing to do is accomplish as much as you can with the time that you have to accomplish it in.


Who do you imagine is against controlling costs?

Taco John
10-15-2013, 12:42 AM
Who do you imagine is against controlling costs?

The people trying to bypass the sequester, for starters.

Fedaykin
10-15-2013, 12:54 AM
The people trying to bypass the sequester, for starters.

So disagreement with a method is disagreement with a goal now?

Taco John
10-15-2013, 01:09 AM
So disagreement with a method is disagreement with a goal now?

Edmund Burke said it best: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

I'd take that same sentiment and apply it towards the current fight, though I don't think people who support the ACA are evil - just misguided and unaware of the real damage that it's set to cause.

As far as disagreements with goals/tactics - what I've learned in life, if nothing at all, is that just getting out there and doing something beats every carefully calculated strategy that doesn't get off the ground due to this or that criteria that isn't just right.

People are welcome to disagree with methods all they want, but if in the disagreement over methods they forget that there's a fight, then what use are they in that fight? None that I can see.

Fedaykin
10-15-2013, 01:12 AM
Edmund Burke said it best: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

I'd take that same sentiment and apply it towards the current fight, though I don't think people who support the ACA are evil - just misguided and unaware of the real damage that it's set to cause.

As far as disagreements with goals/tactics - what I've learned in life, if nothing at all, is that just getting out there and doing something beats every carefully calculated strategy that doesn't get off the ground due to this or that criteria that isn't just right.

People are welcome to disagree with methods all they want, but if in the disagreement over methods they forget that there's a fight, then what use are they in that fight? None that I can see.


People are welcome to disagree with methods? Good I'm glad we agree on that. So why are you complaining because people are complaining about the sequester method?

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 05:14 AM
We are talking about the current debacle that is an embarrassment to the vast majority of Americans.

Obviously, you're not one of them.

Were Democrats an embarrassment in 2006? LOL

DenverBrit
10-15-2013, 07:05 AM
Were Democrats an embarrassment in 2006? LOL

You're an embarrassment in 2013 and a waste of time.

A typical teabagger.

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 07:10 AM
You're an embarrassment in 2013 and a waste of time.

A typical teabagger.

Says the Cheerleader who only cries foul when turnabout becomes fair. LOL

Fedaykin
10-15-2013, 07:43 AM
Were Democrats an embarrassment in 2006? LOL


Do 2 wrongs make a right?

Does political showboating equate to ill advised action?

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 07:50 AM
Reports from the Hill this AM (National Review Online) say that a fanatical corps of Right Wingers in the House are still making calls and clinging to the ultimatum that if Obamacare funding is not on the table, they will refuse to move and will block anybody else that tries to bypass them. They will get what they want or bring the government down.

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 07:54 AM
Do 2 wrongs make a right?

Does political showboating equate to ill advised action?

We're not talking about some guarded criticism here. We're talking about people watching something that's gone on for decades (so far as the debt ceiling goes) and then when they see someone they don't like do it, suddenly act like it's the craziest thing they've ever seen.

It's pure Rah Rah Go Team stuff.

Fedaykin
10-15-2013, 07:58 AM
We're not talking about some guarded criticism here. We're talking about people watching something that's gone on for decades (so far as the debt ceiling goes) and then when they see someone they don't like do it, suddenly act like it's the craziest thing they've ever seen.

It's pure Rah Rah Go Team stuff.

In 2006, it was rah rah go team stuff.

Currently it's "we didn't get what we want, so **** EVERYTHING"

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 08:05 AM
Not much you can do with people who, based on their ideology, refuse to accept evidence.

DenverBrit
10-15-2013, 08:15 AM
Says the Cheerleader who only cries foul when turnabout becomes fair. LOL

Are you bi polar? Look at the thread title. If you want to discuss what the other party was doing in 2006, start a thread.

You might as well, you've deflected your brains out on this topic.

Does the Tea Party embarrass you or not?? Simple question.

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 08:20 AM
In 2006, it was rah rah go team stuff.

Currently it's "we didn't get what we want, so **** EVERYTHING"

Read up on the history, my man.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/09/19/obamas-claim-that-non-budget-items-have-never-been-attached-to-the-debt-ceiling/

Time and again, lawmakers have used the “must-pass” nature of the debt limit to force changes in unrelated laws. Often, the effort fails — as the GOP drive to repeal Obamacare almost certainly will. But Kowalcky and LeLoup speculate that one reason why Congress has not eliminated the debt limit, despite the political problems it poses, is because lawmakers enjoy the leverage it provides against the executive branch.
There’s an old reporter’s rule that you want to avoid using the word “unprecedented.” Otherwise, a professor might call or e-mail the next day to dispute it.
Let’s add this rule for politicians: Never say “never.”

Four Pinocchios

http://img.washingtonpost.com/rw/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/fact-checker/StandingArt/pinocchio_4.jpg

houghtam
10-15-2013, 08:28 AM
Not much you can do with people who, based on their ideology, refuse to accept evidence.

:)

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 08:28 AM
Are you bi polar? Look at the thread title. If you want to discuss what the other party was doing in 2006, start a thread.

You might as well, you've deflected your brains out on this topic.

Does the Tea Party embarrass you or not?? Simple question.

That last line shows the real flaw here. Your desperation to lump people into homogenous think groups. "Are you wit 'em or agin' 'em?!?!"

I've said over and over again that default isn't a real option. I'm sure there are Tea Partiers who believe the same. And there are those who don't. I feel no need to wash my hands of some because of the actions of others.

Like I've said before. Democrats in the Senate caucus with a self-described Socialist. Does that taint embarrass you?

The reality is, it doesn't have to if you stick to the realm of ideas above teams.

Bronco Yoda
10-15-2013, 08:38 AM
Edmund Burke said it best: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

I'd take that same sentiment and apply it towards the current fight, though I don't think people who support the ACA are evil - just misguided and unaware of the real damage that it's set to cause.

As far as disagreements with goals/tactics - what I've learned in life, if nothing at all, is that just getting out there and doing something beats every carefully calculated strategy that doesn't get off the ground due to this or that criteria that isn't just right.

People are welcome to disagree with methods all they want, but if in the disagreement over methods they forget that there's a fight, then what use are they in that fight? None that I can see.

I see that 'The ends justify the means' and let's throw the baby out with the bathwater' mentality is in full vogue.

Fedaykin
10-15-2013, 08:54 AM
Read up on the history, my man.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/09/19/obamas-claim-that-non-budget-items-have-never-been-attached-to-the-debt-ceiling/



http://img.washingtonpost.com/rw/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/fact-checker/StandingArt/pinocchio_4.jpg

That's a very cute attempt at changing the subject. You're a pretty daft fella.

Blart
10-15-2013, 09:34 AM
The democrats have formed their own suicide caucus and are going to permanently shut down the government and default if they don't get single payer and a minimum wage of $25/hr. Your move Boehner.

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 09:46 AM
That's a very cute attempt at changing the subject. You're a pretty daft fella.

Yeah that whole 50 year history of Washington doing exactly what you're saying is "Tea Party Crazy" is totally irrelevant.

You're going to regurgitate the Obama line no matter how many Pinocchios it earns. LOL

Bronco Yoda
10-15-2013, 10:00 AM
lulz.

We may very well see something like this in the future for real. How else is one side going to negotiate with crazy without throwing out crazy back for negotiation purposes. This thing will go full retard before it's all over. (as if it hasn't already)

gyldenlove
10-15-2013, 10:39 AM
It will be interesting to see what happens on Friday. I am not sure of the exact procedures but I believes the president and treasury gets full discretion when it comes to spending in a situation when the debt ceiling is hit.

Requiem
10-15-2013, 11:30 AM
Everyone gets a million bucks on Friday!

Bronco Yoda
10-15-2013, 11:37 AM
Everyone gets a million bucks on Friday!

Nah, this is the TeaTards party. We'll be paid in gold coins! !Booya!

elsid13
10-15-2013, 12:02 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens on Friday. I am not sure of the exact procedures but I believes the president and treasury gets full discretion when it comes to spending in a situation when the debt ceiling is hit.

They do. In theory they determine who is paid first and who is left in the cold, but because the IT systems are not designed to work that way, we are going to have problem.

Taco John
10-15-2013, 12:49 PM
I see that 'The ends justify the means' and let's throw the baby out with the bathwater' mentality is in full vogue.

It has been for some time. Isn't that how Obamacare got passed? Passing the ACA using an "ends justify the means" mentality is what got us to the point we are today. If he had managed to get Republican buy-in on the bill, then we wouldn't see this stand-off - instead, you'd have a quorum of people working together to make certain the program is a success.

When you use budget tricks to pass unpopular bills, you get blowback. Obama created this situation. The Tea Party was just a few people on Ron Paul forums before the Democrats passed a sweeping reform using budgetary shenanigans.

Taco John
10-15-2013, 12:50 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens on Friday. I am not sure of the exact procedures but I believes the president and treasury gets full discretion when it comes to spending in a situation when the debt ceiling is hit.

This is correct. The choice to default on the loans will be Obama's. He will have discretion to prioritize payments to avoid a default, or to willfully default.

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 12:53 PM
It has been for some time. Isn't that how Obamacare got passed? Passing the ACA using an "ends justify the means" mentality is what got us to the point we are today. If he had managed to get Republican buy-in on the bill, then we wouldn't see this stand-off - instead, you'd have a quorum of people working together to make certain the program is a success.

When you use budget tricks to pass unpopular bills, you get blowback. Obama created this situation. The Tea Party was just a few people on Ron Paul forums before the Democrats passed a sweeping reform using budgetary shenanigans.

Health care is the number one budgetary crisis of this nation and the Republicans had no intention of doing anything about it, other than blocking any and all reform. I don't agree with what Obama did, but I can sure as hell understand why he did it.

Taco John
10-15-2013, 12:55 PM
They do. In theory they determine who is paid first and who is left in the cold, but because the IT systems are not designed to work that way, we are going to have problem.

This is only partially true. Obama can't really prioritize individuals, but he can prioritize check runs. Paying off the interest will still be possible on the 18th. The system can prioritize that check run over, say, welfare. They're not interspresed.

THe interest is actually a very small amount compared to the rest of the spending.

Taco John
10-15-2013, 12:55 PM
Health care is the number one budgetary crisis of this nation and the Republicans had no intention of doing anything about it, other than blocking any and all reform. I don't agree with what Obama did, but I can sure as hell understand why he did it.

This is hyperbole. I don't doubt that you believe it though. The Republicans have long advocated healthcare savings accounts and other market based reforms, and to this day still do.

To that end, the Republicans announced a new plan last month that they will be campaigning on next year as they push for a repeal:

http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/solutions/rsc-betterway.htm

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 01:00 PM
This is hyperbole. I don't doubt that you believe it though. The Republicans have long advocated healthcare savings accounts and other market based reforms, and to this day still do.

Two thirds of America is living paycheck to paycheck. Savings my ass.

Taco John
10-15-2013, 01:05 PM
Two thirds of America is living paycheck to paycheck. Savings my ass.

How are they going to feel when the ACA starts impacting their paychecks by hundreds of dollars every two weeks?

That's already starting to happen, but not at a critical mass yet. When people see their new premiums and realize that they're having to pay anywhere between $100 and $300 more per month on insurance, that's when things will get real interesting.

I'm not talking about an abstract thing here. It's already happening, and every working person is going to feel this pinch. It's going to be a very real part of people's lives as they struggle to make ends meet. I know people myself who are facing tough decisions thanks to their new increases. I get to find out what it means for me in January. I'm told to expect a $125 per paycheck increase in premiums.

That will be $250 a month that I'm donating. $3,000 more a year out of my pocket. And I'm getting off easy. My buddy is paying More than double that because he's a small business owner who has no employer matching.

DenverBrit
10-15-2013, 01:07 PM
That last line shows the real flaw here. Your desperation to lump people into homogenous think groups. "Are you wit 'em or agin' 'em?!?!"

I've said over and over again that default isn't a real option. I'm sure there are Tea Partiers who believe the same. And there are those who don't. I feel no need to wash my hands of some because of the actions of others.

Like I've said before. Democrats in the Senate caucus with a self-described Socialist. Does that taint embarrass you?

The reality is, it doesn't have to if you stick to the realm of ideas above teams.

Why should it, I'm neither a Democrat or a socialist.

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 02:24 PM
How are they going to feel when the ACA starts impacting their paychecks by hundreds of dollars every two weeks?

That's already starting to happen, but not at a critical mass yet. When people see their new premiums and realize that they're having to pay anywhere between $100 and $300 more per month on insurance, that's when things will get real interesting.

I'm not talking about an abstract thing here. It's already happening, and every working person is going to feel this pinch. It's going to be a very real part of people's lives as they struggle to make ends meet. I know people myself who are facing tough decisions thanks to their new increases. I get to find out what it means for me in January. I'm told to expect a $125 per paycheck increase in premiums.

That will be $250 a month that I'm donating. $3,000 more a year out of my pocket. And I'm getting off easy. My buddy is paying More than double that because he's a small business owner who has no employer matching.

Hell, we have employer matching and we're paying $800 bucks a month for insurance which, due to the rising deductible and copays is basically unusable. We're paying a government mandated fee to the insurance company for nothing, afaic. I'm not going to defend Obamacare. I've never seen that as a solution. It just gives more money to a health insurance industry which shouldn't even exist. Obamacare is the same as the "solutions" from the Right which always start at the ideological base point that the free market is ALWAYS the solution. In other words, the Right believes in the hammer. Ergo, every problem is a nail.

The reality is that health care is a necessity of human life. It will never fit into the profit matrix. We keep pounding that square peg into that round hole and I just have to wonder when we'll get smart enough to give up.

Taco John
10-15-2013, 02:30 PM
Hell, we have employer matching and we're paying $800 bucks a month for insurance which, due to the rising deductible and copays is basically unusable. We're paying a government mandated fee to the insurance company for nothing, afaic. I'm not going to defend Obamacare. I've never seen that as a solution. It just gives more money to a health insurance industry which shouldn't even exist. Obamacare is the same as the "solutions" from the Right which always start at the ideological base point that the free market is ALWAYS the solution. In other words, the Right believes in the hammer. Ergo, every problem is a nail.

The reality is that health care is a necessity of human life. It will never fit into the profit matrix. We keep pounding that square peg into that round hole and I just have to wonder when we'll get smart enough to give up.


I hate to break it to you man, it's going to get worse for you. You have employer matching, and you pay $800. You can expect that to raise by almost $200 a month. I'd like to know what it comes out to. I haven't met a single working person who hasn't been raised by at least $150/month. Have you even considered how that's going to impact you?

I'm personally looking at what the cost comes out to if I were to drop health insruance altogether, pay the penalty, and go through a concierge doctor and then just sign up for insurance if it's needed. I'm hoping I can shave a couple hundred dollars a month that way.

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 02:55 PM
I hate to break it to you man, it's going to get worse for you. You have employer matching, and you pay $800. You can expect that to raise by almost $200 a month. I'd like to know what it comes out to. I haven't met a single working person who hasn't been raised by at least $150/month. Have you even considered how that's going to impact you?

I'm personally looking at what the cost comes out to if I were to drop health insruance altogether, pay the penalty, and go through a concierge doctor and then just sign up for insurance if it's needed. I'm hoping I can shave a couple hundred dollars a month that way.

It's gotten worse every year, by 20% or so, for years. This might be the year we do the same thing, cancel and pay the penalty.

Taco John
10-15-2013, 02:57 PM
It's gotten worse every year, by 20% or so, for years. This might be the year we do the same thing, cancel and pay the penalty.

Doesn't it bother you that you're paying a fine to not have a product that you can't afford? Does that sound American to you?

I mean, here you are in these threads telling people like me what bad people we are, and the only difference in our personal situations is apparently you're ok with paying a fine for not being able to afford something next year that you could afford last year, and I'm rankled by it.

Requiem
10-15-2013, 03:12 PM
For individual coverage for myself (health, vision, dental) I pay ~ $100 in premiums a month for coverage. I match that contribution monthly to my HSA. Basically, the HSA helps me pay for my medications that insurance won't cover (based on the research I did) until I meet my deductible, which I believe is $2,000.

I do have my kidney issues, but it's pretty crazy that I essentially have to pay out of pocket $2,000 before I even get any benefits from insurance I am already paying $100 to have per month. I'm pretty lucky (considering other figures here) but it is pretty bogus that my payroll deductions and employer contributions to my HSA are what keeps me going.

$1,200 a year just to have insurance, and another $2,000 out of pocket before they start to cover a majority of costs. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. At least my HSA contributions/match can buy me my medicine that keeps me living. Jaysus.

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 03:43 PM
Doesn't it bother you that you're paying a fine to not have a product that you can't afford? Does that sound American to you?

I mean, here you are in these threads telling people like me what bad people we are, and the only difference in our personal situations is apparently you're ok with paying a fine for not being able to afford something next year that you could afford last year, and I'm rankled by it.

When did I tell you I thought you were a bad person? Hey! I likes you, TJ. ;D

We just disagree.

As far as your question goes, I'm right there with you. It's unamerican, it's a ripoff and the American people have to end this bull****. I think the best solution is single-payer, universal coverage.

slick7
10-15-2013, 03:45 PM
For individual coverage for myself (health, vision, dental) I pay ~ $100 in premiums a month for coverage. I match that contribution monthly to my HSA. Basically, the HSA helps me pay for my medications that insurance won't cover (based on the research I did) until I meet my deductible, which I believe is $2,000.

I do have my kidney issues, but it's pretty crazy that I essentially have to pay out of pocket $2,000 before I even get any benefits from insurance I am already paying $100 to have per month. I'm pretty lucky (considering other figures here) but it is pretty bogus that my payroll deductions and employer contributions to my HSA are what keeps me going.

$1,200 a year just to have insurance, and another $2,000 out of pocket before they start to cover a majority of costs. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. At least my HSA contributions/match can buy me my medicine that keeps me living. Jaysus.

What kidney condition do you have babycakes? I started urinating blood last Easter and was diagnosed with Polycystic Kidney Disease. I've been meaning to talk to you about this. Shoot me a PM.

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 03:47 PM
Why should it, I'm neither a Democrat or a socialist.

So why exactly do you ask me to either defend or denounce the TP?

DenverBrit
10-15-2013, 04:02 PM
So why exactly do you ask me to either defend or denounce the TP?

Can't do either? Really?

Requiem
10-15-2013, 04:17 PM
What kidney condition do you have babycakes? I started urinating blood last Easter and was diagnosed with Polycystic Kidney Disease. I've been meaning to talk to you about this. Shoot me a PM.

PM sent bro. Look forward to chatting with you.

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 08:24 PM
House leaders drop the ball on budget deal because Heritage Foundation threatens to give them a "bad score."

"It was hard for them to get the votes anyway, and then when Heritage came out, that killed it," said Rep. Pete King (R-N.Y.), who has opposed the House GOP strategy of trying to using government funding and the debt ceiling as leverage to defund Obamacare.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/house-debt-deal-fails_n_4103021.html

One tiny little cabal of fanatics is forcing the whole world to twist in the wind. What a joke.

"Unbelievable hubris -- House Rs are fretting over a Heritage score while we are 29 hours away from default," emailed one Democratic aide who requested anonymity because he works closely with Republicans.

"Who's calling the shots here? Ted Cruz? Heritage Action?" said Rep. Peter Welch (D-Vt.) "Who knows, but it sure isn't John Boehner. They had a plan and they withdrew the plan right after Heritage Action denounced the plan."

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 08:29 PM
King, representing a suburban district outside of New York City, was especially angry at the damaging showdown.

"This party is going nuts," King said. "So many people I run into who are normal people -- and I hate to use that term -- they just can't understand what's going on.

"On this one, they can't even see both sides," King said. "They just think Republicans are crazy. That's it. They see no justification for any of this."

Ain't that the truth?

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 08:34 PM
Anyone gonna give me odds on a debt ceiling deal?

Or do you just like twisting your own panties. :)

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-15-2013, 08:36 PM
https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1378238_10151737679347971_287379671_n.jpg

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1395420_10151737256022971_1828015400_n.jpg

Rohirrim
10-15-2013, 08:42 PM
Anyone gonna give me odds on a debt ceiling deal?

Or do you just like twisting your own panties. :)

Your party has its head so firmly up its ass it's become a worldwide joke. And all you Right Wing clowns on here can come up with is to pretend that it's not happening. Bunch of whining toddlers.

BroncoBeavis
10-15-2013, 09:09 PM
Your party has its head so firmly up its ass it's become a worldwide joke. And all you Right Wing clowns on here can come up with is to pretend that it's not happening. Bunch of whining toddlers.

So I take that as a no. You wouldn't bet against the one year delay I've said would happen ever since this thing began. :)

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-15-2013, 09:55 PM
.
LOL

pricejj
10-15-2013, 10:22 PM
As far as your question goes, I'm right there with you. It's unamerican, it's a ripoff and the American people have to end this bull****. I think the best solution is single-payer, universal coverage.

It's not.

The only sustainable and most efficient solution is individuals who have power over their own money to make healthcare spending decisions.

For those who can't afford it, a 'safety net', where taxpayer liability is limited.

Taco John
10-15-2013, 10:23 PM
When did I tell you I thought you were a bad person? Hey! I likes you, TJ. ;D

We just disagree.

As far as your question goes, I'm right there with you. It's unamerican, it's a ripoff and the American people have to end this bull****. I think the best solution is single-payer, universal coverage.

Well I like you too.. :)

But I've got bad news for you. Single payer isn't ever going to happen in this nation, and the reason is that nobody was willing to fight for it using the same tooth and nail tenacity that Ted Cruz was willing to. Nobody was willing to become controversial. Nobody was willing to stick their neck out for it. Nobody was willing to rally the base for it.

Obamacare is going to go supernova. The technological problems with it are going to take more than 90 days to untangle. The system they're trying to establish is like getting Legos to work with Kinects to work with Duplo blocks to work with cinder blocks to work with a video game. And that's without mentioning the security problems which nobody has even scratched the surface on yet. The truth is that the security for this kind of distributed computing is still very much in its infancy. I could go on about this, but it would be pointless...

The point, however is that while the technological problems are untenable in themselves, the economic matter is still an open issue, and when that hits, the thing is done.

When that happens, what Democrat is going to be able to run on their idea for healthcare? Who is going to be able to fight for single payer? Does Hillary Clinton have credibility to make another run on Healthcare? Who is going to be the single payer champion?

The Democrats are already behind on this issue. They're going to be playing defense in an election year against a "Reform and Replace" message. That defense is going to be centered around "making Obamacare work." Their solution will be to entrench around Obamacare and run on the idea that it would work if only more Democrats were elected who could help fix it. They're going to be running on fixing a broken system.

I wish them luck. It will be an interesting race. But if you're holding out hope for single payer, I hate to break it to you, but there's no political wind there. Democrats aren't like the Republicans where there is a dissent faction willing to challenge the establishment even if it means risking power and taking hits in the opinion polls doing what they think is the right thing. They're a party that finds safety in numbers, and won't tolerate dissent in the ranks.

pricejj
10-15-2013, 10:23 PM
Your party has its head so firmly up its ass it's become a worldwide joke. And all you Right Wing clowns on here can come up with is to pretend that it's not happening. Bunch of whining toddlers.

You wish. Do you believe everything you hear from the state-run media?

I think you do.

pricejj
10-15-2013, 10:30 PM
I wish them luck. It will be an interesting race. But if you're holding out hope for single payer, I hate to break it to you, but there's no political wind there. Democrats aren't like the Republicans where there is a dissent faction willing to challenge the establishment even if it means risking power and taking hits in the opinion polls doing what they think is the right thing. They're a party that finds safety in numbers, and won't tolerate dissent in the ranks.

You will be surprised how fast these Socialists will drop Obamacare after he is out of office. They know they can control low-information voters with media, and will just switch their message to promote single-payer once Obamacare drives costs even higher.

After all, what's better than 'free' insurance premiums and expanded Medicaid? You got it... 'free' healthcare.

Rohirrim
10-16-2013, 12:17 AM
You wish. Do you believe everything you hear from the state-run media?

I think you do.

Ha! Your team dropped back to punt the ball and fumbled. They can't even get that right.

Rohirrim
10-16-2013, 12:38 AM
Well I like you too.. :)

But I've got bad news for you. Single payer isn't ever going to happen in this nation, and the reason is that nobody was willing to fight for it using the same tooth and nail tenacity that Ted Cruz was willing to. Nobody was willing to become controversial. Nobody was willing to stick their neck out for it. Nobody was willing to rally the base for it.

Obamacare is going to go supernova. The technological problems with it are going to take more than 90 days to untangle. The system they're trying to establish is like getting Legos to work with Kinects to work with Duplo blocks to work with cinder blocks to work with a video game. And that's without mentioning the security problems which nobody has even scratched the surface on yet. The truth is that the security for this kind of distributed computing is still very much in its infancy. I could go on about this, but it would be pointless...

The point, however is that while the technological problems are untenable in themselves, the economic matter is still an open issue, and when that hits, the thing is done.

When that happens, what Democrat is going to be able to run on their idea for healthcare? Who is going to be able to fight for single payer? Does Hillary Clinton have credibility to make another run on Healthcare? Who is going to be the single payer champion?

The Democrats are already behind on this issue. They're going to be playing defense in an election year against a "Reform and Replace" message. That defense is going to be centered around "making Obamacare work." Their solution will be to entrench around Obamacare and run on the idea that it would work if only more Democrats were elected who could help fix it. They're going to be running on fixing a broken system.

I wish them luck. It will be an interesting race. But if you're holding out hope for single payer, I hate to break it to you, but there's no political wind there. Democrats aren't like the Republicans where there is a dissent faction willing to challenge the establishment even if it means risking power and taking hits in the opinion polls doing what they think is the right thing. They're a party that finds safety in numbers, and won't tolerate dissent in the ranks.

I think single payer is inevitable because it is the only logical way to provide health care to a nation of people. I don't even think it's political. It's pragmatism. Eventually, everybody will surrender to the inevitable reality that you can't jam healthcare into a profit matrix, especially when you pile on an unnecessary insurance industry with its extraneous profit structure.

As far as the politics goes, I think the country has gone crazy, frankly. We have a whacko, hysterical minority backed by billionaires that's just flinging **** all over the place. Hell, they brought the overturn of Obamacare to the floor 42 times and failed and now they hold the economy of the world hostage for the same fail. Some of the old, conservative pols in Washington like King and McCain have pointed out, it was crazy and pointless to begin with. To keep going with it is just mindless stupidity. I expect the inevitable backlash to come from that majority of voters in the middle who are going to realize that this is no way to run a country. How long any of this will take is anybody's guess.

It's hard to remember given all the noise they make, but the whackos on the Right represent only about 25% of the population. If not for extreme gerrymandering, they would have lost the House in the last election. When this extremist minority is allowed to call the shots and create this much turmoil due to systemic failures of government, that ain't democracy at work. It's more akin to terrorism.

As far as Obamacare goes, I didn't think it would work anyway, but now the Right has gone so crazy that the focus has shifted off of Obamacare and on to them. So, politically, another fail on their part. This is why you don't let children drive the car.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-16-2013, 06:51 AM
How extreme have House Republicans become?

Radical televangelist Pat Robertson thinks they've gone too far for his tastes.

TV preacher Robertson sees GOP as too extreme (http://on.msnbc.com/1hWdEdB)
(http://on.msnbc.com/1hWdEdB)
hen even TV preacher Pat Robertson thinks the Republican Party is too extreme, the GOP has problem.
(http://on.msnbc.com/1hWdEdB)
(http://on.msnbc.com/1hWdEdB)

houghtam
10-16-2013, 08:41 AM
How extreme have House Republicans become?

Radical televangelist Pat Robertson thinks they've gone too far for his tastes.

TV preacher Robertson sees GOP as too extreme (http://on.msnbc.com/1hWdEdB)
(http://on.msnbc.com/1hWdEdB)
hen even TV preacher Pat Robertson thinks the Republican Party is too extreme, the GOP has problem.
(http://on.msnbc.com/1hWdEdB)
(http://on.msnbc.com/1hWdEdB)



Now they'll claim Pat Robertson is a RINO, just like they did with former presidential candidates McCain and Romney.

:)

BroncoBeavis
10-16-2013, 09:16 AM
I think single payer is inevitable because it is the only logical way to provide health care to a nation of people. I don't even think it's political. It's pragmatism. Eventually, everybody will surrender to the inevitable reality that you can't jam healthcare into a profit matrix, especially when you pile on an unnecessary insurance industry with its extraneous profit structure.

If anything's inevitable, it's that Doctors and people with money will continue to work off of a profit matrix, regardless of what you do to them.

Fedaykin
10-16-2013, 09:19 AM
Now they'll claim Pat Robertson is a RINO, just like they did with former presidential candidates McCain and Romney.

:)

Hint: When kooks think you are acting crazy, it's way past time to reeevaluate what you're doing.

;)

Rohirrim
10-16-2013, 04:36 PM
If anything's inevitable, it's that Doctors and people with money will continue to work off of a profit matrix, regardless of what you do to them.

I'm all for doctors getting the money. Why should insurance companies get any? Under single payer, doctors would be liberated from the overhead of dealing with insurance paperwork and able to see more patients.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-16-2013, 05:50 PM
Tea Party popularity plummets (http://on.msnbc.com/GYzsKh)

www.msnbc.com (http://on.msnbc.com/GYzsKh)

The last several weeks have taken a severe toll on the GOP's standing, but the American mainstream is also starting to turn against the Tea Party in particular. (http://on.msnbc.com/GYzsKh)

http://www.msnbc.com/sites/msnbc/files/article-teasers/2013-10-16_1631.jpg

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
10-16-2013, 06:18 PM
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/iQubNVeGPNc?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-16-2013, 06:31 PM
^

InfoWars? L0L!

No wonder support for your Teabilly Party is circling the drain.

Even snake-handling whack jobs like Pat Robertson are jumping off the bandwagon.

Rohirrim
10-17-2013, 07:15 AM
$24 billion just so some extremists can throw a tantrum. There's some "conservatism" for you.

TonyR
10-17-2013, 08:57 AM
Speaking of the Tea Party, good stuff from Sullivan. BB will not like this. He will not like it, Sam I Am.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/16/the-tea-party-as-a-religion/

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-17-2013, 10:10 PM
Tea Party Crazies Shake the World & China Wants Off

Is there any doubt that this was an influential factor in the resolution of the crisis?

After all, the TeaTards answer to the banksters/military industrial complex, and the latter answer to their creditor (read: China.)

BroncoBeavis
10-17-2013, 10:44 PM
I'm all for doctors getting the money. Why should insurance companies get any? Under single payer, doctors would be liberated from the overhead of dealing with insurance paperwork and able to see more patients.

I fail to believe you've ever worked in healthcare if you believe that government reimbursement frees anyone from any kind of paperwork. :)

TonyR
10-18-2013, 09:50 AM
It may be more useful to compare the tea-party movement to a different sort of party that tends to crop up in parliamentary systems: far-right populist parties based on backward-looking ideologies of national identity. In France, the Netherlands and Austria, such parties consistently win substantial portions of the vote. Like the tea-party movement, they tend to be fiercely protective of existing social-welfare programmes that benefit the elderly and the ethnic majority, and bitterly opposed to social-welfare programmes that benefit ethnic minorities or immigrants.

And like the tea-party movement, they can win by losing: their partisans may treat legislative defeats as a badge of honour, and in any case, when government is stymied, the economy weakens, and people get angry, populist parties that avoid responsibility and stay out of government draw more support. But in parliamentary systems, fringe populist parties are rarely included in governing coalitions, in large part because their tendency to value expressive identity-based politics over concrete legislative goals makes them extremely difficult for other parties to work with. The weakness of two-party systems such as America’s is that purists who treat politics as a type of self-affirming performance art have to be included in one party or the other, and indeed are likely to regard themselves as being that party’s true soul. http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/10/tea-party-republicans

BroncoBeavis
10-18-2013, 10:04 AM
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/10/tea-party-republicans

Makes a very good point. Their biggest problem is that many of them view pragmatism as betrayal. And it can make life much more difficult for everyone.

But it's not just TP'ers. That mentality exists in many different groups, and manifests itself in many ways depending on the balance of power.

gyldenlove
10-18-2013, 10:14 AM
Makes a very good point. Their biggest problem is that many of them view pragmatism as betrayal. And it can make life much more difficult for everyone.

But it's not just TP'ers. That mentality exists in many different groups, and manifests itself in many ways depending on the balance of power.

Political idealism should only be practiced by those who are not in power. When in power pragmatism is always superior to idealism, sadly in a strict 2 party system pragmatism is often considered betrayal when in reality the best solutions would almost always be found somewhere between the idealist positions.

Bronco Yoda
10-18-2013, 12:06 PM
Political idealism should only be practiced by those who are not in power. When in power pragmatism is always superior to idealism, sadly in a strict 2 party system pragmatism is often considered betrayal when in reality the best solutions would almost always be found somewhere between the idealist positions.

'I second this'

Fedaykin
10-18-2013, 12:08 PM
'I second this'

I third-ed it

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-18-2013, 07:52 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/sweden-garbage-s.jpg

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-18-2013, 07:58 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/tb-party-over-cruz-2.jpg

Rohirrim
10-18-2013, 08:46 PM
I fail to believe you've ever worked in healthcare if you believe that government reimbursement frees anyone from any kind of paperwork. :)

Medicare is far more efficiently administered than any commercial health insurance is.

Rohirrim
10-18-2013, 08:48 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/sweden-garbage-s.jpg

When you see them waving the Confederate flag at Tea Party rallies you can pretty much guess the tradition they're coming from. Couldn't win the Civil War, maybe they can figure out a different way to bring down this government?

BroncoBeavis
10-18-2013, 09:44 PM
Medicare is far more efficiently administered than any commercial health insurance is.

Efficiency for Medicare does not equal efficiency for Providers. Go find a physician in private practice and ask her how easy CMS makes her life.

Part of Medicare's gig is basically having the effect of law. Often laying mandates on providers that other payers could never get away with.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-19-2013, 05:42 PM
When you see them waving the Confederate flag at Tea Party rallies you can pretty much guess the tradition they're coming from. Couldn't win the Civil War, maybe they can figure out a different way to bring down this government?

It would be nice if they would just secede like they're always dreaming about and stop dragging the country down to their level.