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TonyR
08-16-2013, 12:08 PM
...from former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams:

"When you have any contact with real persecuted minorities you learn to use the word persecuted very chastely," he said.

"Persecution is not being made to feel mildly uncomfortable.

"I am always very uneasy when people sometimes in this country or the United States talk about persecution of Christians or rather believers.

"I think we are made to feel uncomfortable at times. We're made to feel as if we're idiots - perish the thought!

"But that kind of level of not being taken very seriously or being made fun of; I mean for goodness sake, grow up.

"You have to earn respect if you want to be taken seriously in society.

"But don't confuse it with the systematic brutality and often murderous hostility which means that every morning you get up wondering if you and your children are going to make it through the day.

"That is different, it's real. It's not quite what we're facing in Western society." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10244716/Persecuted-British-Christians-need-to-grow-up-says-former-Archbishop-Rowan-Williams.html

Smiling Assassin27
08-16-2013, 01:17 PM
Yeah, those Copts who are now picking through the smoldering rubble of their church and orphanages just need to sack up.

As far as American Christians, this is what you signed up for. Christ didn't suffer so you wouldn't have to, he suffered so you'd know how to. My suggestion is to spend more time defending the faith with coherent and defensible reason rather than turning Christ and His Church into a caricature.

DenverBrit
08-16-2013, 05:38 PM
Yeah, those Copts who are now picking through the smoldering rubble of their church and orphanages just need to sack up.

As far as American Christians, this is what you signed up for. Christ didn't suffer so you wouldn't have to, he suffered so you'd know how to. My suggestion is to spend more time defending the faith with coherent and defensible reason rather than turning Christ and His Church into a caricature.

He was talking about British Christians and their unjustified persecution complex.

houghtam
08-16-2013, 06:08 PM
He was talking about British Christians and their unjustified persecution complex.

And he specifically referenced situations like that and stated they were not the same as those truly being persecuted.

"But don't confuse it with the systematic brutality and often murderous hostility which means that every morning you get up wondering if you and your children are going to make it through the day."

L2Read, IMO

nyuk nyuk
08-17-2013, 10:33 AM
Liberals should take those to heart, especially

Persecution is not being made to feel mildly uncomfortable... But don't confuse it with the systematic brutality and often murderous hostility which means that every morning you get up wondering if you and your children are going to make it through the day.

What pet groups of liberals don't make these very same claims?

Can you ALL grow the **** up?!

houghtam
08-17-2013, 10:35 AM
Liberals should take those to heart, especially

Persecution is not being made to feel mildly uncomfortable... But don't confuse it with the systematic brutality and often murderous hostility which means that every morning you get up wondering if you and your children are going to make it through the day.

What pet groups of liberals don't make these very same claims?

Can you ALL grow the **** up?!

Except we generally don't use the word persecute. Discrimination means something very different, and it exists in spades in the US.

nyuk nyuk
08-17-2013, 10:35 AM
Yeah, those Copts who are now picking through the smoldering rubble of their church and orphanages just need to sack up.

They're being legitimately persecuted which is no surprise when you're a minority religion in a Muslim-majority country. Even in countries with sizable Muslim minorities you see similar behavior. I knew the minute the MB got into power that these guys were in deep ****. Hopefully Obama has the sense to keep supporting the Egyptian military in smashing these Islamist psychos. Morsi was removed with good reason; he was ignoring the law and the courts and was trying to consolidate power.

nyuk nyuk
08-17-2013, 10:43 AM
Except we generally don't use the word persecute. Discrimination means something very different, and it exists in spades in the US.

Discrimination isn't necessarily wrong and everyone does it, but not everyone is honest about it. It has many common sense synonyms. As such, "discrimination" is just another useless trash liberal catchword and is often used as a weapon against political opponents.

Indeed, liberals themselves discriminate in spades against those they disagree with. Thus, discrimination is as worthless and hollow a catchword as tolerance. They are both ideologically biased toward one view and those who don't share that view are labeled negatively, thus invalidating the claim of non-discrimination and tolerance.

But hey, it's liberalism.

houghtam
08-17-2013, 10:52 AM
Discrimination isn't necessarily wrong and everyone does it, but not everyone is honest about it. It has many common sense synonyms. As such, "discrimination" is just another useless trash liberal catchword and is often used as a weapon against political opponents.

Indeed, liberals themselves discriminate in spades against those they disagree with. Thus, discrimination is as worthless and hollow a catchword as tolerance. They are both ideologically biased toward one view and those who don't share that view are labeled negatively, thus invalidating the claim of non-discrimination and tolerance.

But hey, it's liberalism.

What an epically dumb statement.

"Discrimination" isn't a catchword, it's a term used in federal laws such as the Fair Pay Act and the Civil Rights Act (both in 1875 and 1964).

Buy a clue.

SoCalBronco
08-17-2013, 11:03 AM
Yeah there is no persecution going on anywhere. Coptic churches aren't being burned and kids aren't being murdered.

I'm a Copt and I have relatives in Egypt. I can tell you....it's happening.

Of course I'm sure Tony will hide behind the second part of the article and claim he was referring only to Western countries even though the only thing he bolded in the article was the part about telling people to grow up. I wonder why the systematic brutality against Christians around the world wasn't bolded? Hmm....

houghtam
08-17-2013, 11:13 AM
Yeah there is no persecution going on anywhere. Coptic churches aren't being burned and kids aren't being murdered.

I'm a Copt and I have relatives in Egypt. I can tell you....it's happening.

Of course I'm sure Tony will hide behind the second part of the article and claim he was referring only to Western countries even though the only thing he bolded in the article was the part about telling people to grow up. I wonder why the systematic brutality against Christians around the world wasn't bolded? Hmm....

Because you apparently didn't read the article. The entire POINT of the article was about how the ex-archbishop of Canterbury feels western Christians overuse the word "persecute", particularly in reference to a national poll which said nearly 2/3 of British Christians believing they were now part of a "persecuted minority".

SoCalBronco
08-17-2013, 11:21 AM
Because you apparently didn't read the article. The entire POINT of the article was about how the ex-archbishop of Canterbury feels western Christians overuse the word "persecute", particularly in reference to a national poll which said nearly 2/3 of British Christians believing they were now part of a "persecuted minority".

The problem with your position is that you guys go out of your way to trash Christians who feel persecuted/discriminated against and point out that well look over here this is REAL persecution....but if thats your position one would expect you guys to be posting alot of stuff condemning those atrocities....but you almost never do.


So yeah.......I don't want to hear it. You can't have it both ways.

Oh and if people feel the need to express frustration about how they perceive being treated they are free to do so. Would you guys be alright with some far right nut job telling a minority to shut up about discrimination because it used to be so much worse or in some other place it is alot worse? Of course not. And we would be totally right to bash anyone who made that suggestion....except when it comes to a group you don't like then it's fine for you to tell them to grow up.

houghtam
08-17-2013, 11:25 AM
The problem with your position is that you guys go out of your way to trash Christians who feel persecuted/discriminated against and point out that well look over here this is REAL persecution....but if thats your position one would expect you guys to be posting alot of stuff condemning those atrocities....but you almost never do.


So yeah.......I don't want to hear it. You can't have it both ways.

Oh and if people feel the need to express frustration about how they perceive being treated they are free to do so. Would you guys be alright with some far right nut job telling a minority to shut up about discrimination because it used to be so much worse or in some other place it is alot worse? Of course not. And we would be totally right to bash anyone who made that suggestion....except when it comes to a group you don't like then it's fine for you to tell them to grow up.

Discrimination.

Persecution.

Two different things entirely.

And that is all that this article, the ex-Archbishop of Canterbury, the OP and myself are saying. It is not my fault if you, Dramallama or anyone else don't know the difference between the two.

SoCalBronco
08-17-2013, 11:28 AM
Again...where are all the articles you and Tony have posted condemning actual Christian persecution?

Where are they? You can't use it when it benefits you and ignore it otherwise. Be consistent. When you show me these links ill be happy to consider your view.

And for the record I'm well aware of the difference, but it seems you are saying people have to be quiet about discrimination if in fact it hasn't risen to the level of persecution. Really? Take off the blinders and think about what you are saying. Is this something you would approve of as a general principle? Is it?







That's what I thought.

houghtam
08-17-2013, 11:37 AM
Again...where are all the articles you and Tony have posted condemning actual Christian persecution?

Where are they? You can't use it when it benefits you and ignore it otherwise. Be consistent. When you show me these links ill be happy to consider your view.

Is it really necessary for someone to post articles about how they believe persecution is wrong in order for them to actually believe so?

If so, please link for me where you've condemned persecution.

Yeah, I thought so.

Persecution of any kind is wrong. Certain types of discrimination are illegal under US law. Persecution and discrimination are not the same thing, and to equate them as such lessens the gravity of the other.

Again, that is the point of the article, which you missed entirely.

Edit response to this: "it seems you are saying people have to be quiet about discrimination if in fact it hasn't risen to the level of persecution"

Nope. We (at least I and the ex-Archbishop of Canterbury) are saying "don't respond to a public poll saying you feel like a 'persecuted minority' when you're not".

SoCalBronco
08-17-2013, 11:48 AM
Is it really necessary for someone to post articles about how they believe persecution is wrong in order for them to actually believe so?

If so, please link for me where you've condemned persecution.

Yeah, I thought so.

Persecution of any kind is wrong. Certain types of discrimination are illegal under US law. Persecution and discrimination are not the same thing, and to equate them as such lessens the gravity of the other.

Again, that is the point of the article, which you missed entirely.

Edit response to this:

Nope. We (at least I and the ex-Archbishop of Canterbury) are saying "don't respond to a public poll saying you feel like a 'persecuted minority' when you're not".

I've condemned persecution of Coptic Christians on this forum before. Feel free to use the search function. And even your alleged point is wrong. If someone feels like a persecuted minority they should absolutely respond to such a poll stating so. That it is much worse for that group in other parts of the world is hardly sufficient reason to tell someone "how they SHOULD feel" in their own life. Nobody should be telling anyone how they should feel. Would you like it if someone told you how you should respond to something? That's what I thought. If people feel that way we would want it to come out to see why they feel that way and what if anything can be done about it to address their concerns. Isn't that the point of measuring attitudes and opinions?

Or are we only interested in the concerns of certain people?

houghtam
08-17-2013, 11:53 AM
I've condemned persecution of Coptic Christians on this forum before. Feel free to use the search function. And even your alleged point is wrong. If someone feels like a persecuted minority they should absolutely respond to such a poll stating so. That it is much worse for that group in other parts of the world is hardly sufficient reason to tell someone "how they SHOULD feel" in their own life. Nobody should be telling anyone how they should feel. Would you like it if someone told you how you should respond to something? That's what I thought. If people feel that way we would want it to come out to see why they feel that way and what if anything can be done about it to address their concerns. Isn't that the point of measuring attitudes and opinions?

Or are we only interested in the concerns of certain people?

Well in the case of this poll, I would realize the difference between discrimination and persecution, so it would be a moot point. If I were asked to answer a poll on whether I were a ham sandwich or a human being, and I responded that I feel like a ham sandwich, does that make it right, just because I feel that way? Man, I thought you conservatives were against all this "I feel like" stuff...

If someone feels persecuted, you're right, they should absolutely respond as such.

Then they should be roundly criticized for not knowing what a word means, just like ex-Archbishop Williams did.

nyuk nyuk
08-17-2013, 12:06 PM
I've condemned persecution of Coptic Christians on this forum before.

Ever read about how the Christians of the West Bank are treated?

nyuk nyuk
08-17-2013, 12:07 PM
What an epically dumb statement.

"Discrimination" isn't a catchword, it's a term used in federal laws such as the Fair Pay Act and the Civil Rights Act (both in 1875 and 1964).

Buy a clue.

Not at all. Use a dictionary. The word has many aspects to its meaning. Throwing it out there as a blanket word makes you look like a dolt.

Liberals are even crying discrimination in the federal law sense when there is no such thing going on, such as the endless bizarre obsession with the Boy Scouts. The large majority of what liberals bitch about are non-violations of federal law related to personal views and how people conduct themselves legally in their own private lives in their own private organizations.

TonyR
08-18-2013, 08:30 AM
Because you apparently didn't read the article. The entire POINT of the article was about how the ex-archbishop of Canterbury feels western Christians overuse the word "persecute", particularly in reference to a national poll which said nearly 2/3 of British Christians believing they were now part of a "persecuted minority".

^ In bold. In fact the excerpt I pulled from the article specifically mentioned this.

Rohirrim
08-18-2013, 10:36 AM
Not at all. Use a dictionary. The word has many aspects to its meaning. Throwing it out there as a blanket word makes you look like a dolt.

Liberals are even crying discrimination in the federal law sense when there is no such thing going on, such as the endless bizarre obsession with the Boy Scouts. The large majority of what liberals b**** about are non-violations of federal law related to personal views and how people conduct themselves legally in their own private lives in their own private organizations.

Examples? Sources? Links?