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Rohirrim
07-18-2013, 01:30 PM
Largest city in American history to do so. The Chinese have a curse: "May you live in interesting times."
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/reports-detroit-files-bankruptcy-6C10678946

Lestat
07-18-2013, 01:37 PM
honestly it's not shocking due to the issues that the auto industry had.
even with it coming back it's been a slow build and while you hoped the rebound would occur faster and more prominently.

Rohirrim
07-18-2013, 01:44 PM
Personally, I think our laws and trade policies should be written in such a way as to keep our jobs and industries in our own country, and keep our cities solvent, rather than to prop up the well-being of global corporations who hide their assets off shore and who couldn't give a **** about this country.

rugbythug
07-18-2013, 01:54 PM
Personally, I think our laws and trade policies should be written in such a way as to keep our jobs and industries in our own country, and keep our cities solvent, rather than to prop up the well-being of global corporations who hide their assets off shore and who couldn't give a **** about this country.
I disagree

Smiling Assassin27
07-18-2013, 02:00 PM
50 years of running the city like a welfare state and voting in more of same will catch up to you eventually. Better get Mitt Romney on the phone and negotiate a bailout.

Frickin' sad.

razorwire77
07-18-2013, 02:04 PM
It's inevitable. Detroit was built on the premise that you could graduate from high school, grab a decent assembly line job at 10 bucks an hour, and move up to lower management. You'd buy a nice Bungalow for 20K, raise a family, drive a new Ford, Chevy, Dodge every few years and eventually, retire to Florida.

In a Global corporatocracy, those days are dead like the dodo.

There is an ongoing retraction in population, industry, and resources in many of the rust belt cities. The leadership in Detroit, Flint, Cleveland etc. need to operate under the assumption that this retraction is inevitable. Unfortunately, it is politically inconvenient to do so and they're isn't a lot of money in it for their cronies.

Drunken.Broncoholic
07-18-2013, 02:06 PM
Personally, I think our laws and trade policies should be written in such a way as to keep our jobs and industries in our own country, and keep our cities solvent, rather than to prop up the well-being of global corporations who hide their assets off shore and who couldn't give a **** about this country.

Why? I thought turning a profit is frowned upon in this country. Everyone hates people who succeed. I thought the wealth is supposed to be distributed in such a way that punishes success and rewards laziness!


**** that.

lolcopter
07-18-2013, 02:07 PM
Personally, I think our laws and trade policies should be written in such a way as to keep our jobs and industries in our own country, and keep our cities solvent, rather than to prop up the well-being of global corporations who hide their assets off shore and who couldn't give a **** about this country.

Personally, I think American cars should be less ****ty. Most aren't even made here anyway.

Smiling Assassin27
07-18-2013, 02:08 PM
Tariffs won't heal what's killing the cities, unfortunately.

LetsGoBroncos
07-18-2013, 02:08 PM
Detroit and California. Run by liberals.

Drunken.Broncoholic
07-18-2013, 02:09 PM
Detroit and California. Run by liberals.

Stockton baby. Where the Nortes and Sur's roam

broncocalijohn
07-18-2013, 02:12 PM
You knew the city was going under when farms were propping up where apartments roamed. Such a depressing city and sad what has happened to many cities in this country but Detroit? Not thinking of the future did them in.

R8R H8R
07-18-2013, 02:14 PM
50 years of running the city like a welfare state and voting in more of same will catch up to you eventually. Better get Mitt Romney on the phone and negotiate a bailout.

Frickin' sad.

As long as they keep voting in the same corrupt trash, they don't deserve a bailout. Let them sink or swim with thier chosen politicians. They will have deserved each other.

Smiling Assassin27
07-18-2013, 02:18 PM
Stockton baby. Where the Nortes and Sur's roam


Bell, California and the state of Illinois on deck.

razorwire77
07-18-2013, 02:21 PM
Not to over simply a complicated situation, or get into a right/left pissing contest, but imo the only way cities like Detroit are going to make it is a complete paradigm shift in how the city is viewed. People think of Detroit as this automotive, industrial hub of the United States. What should be happening is Detroit should be transitioning into moving from a large metropolis, to a mid-sized city. And as such looking at industry conductive to a mid-sized city. Condense the spread out geographic nature of the city by clearing out block after block of blight. Turn the surrounding areas into a more rural/agricultural friendly place for industry. The vision needs to be to make Detroit a lot more like a Lincoln Nebraska and a lot less like trying to remake the 1950's Detroit of old.

Rohirrim
07-18-2013, 02:23 PM
Pretty soon, we'll all be living like the Southeast Asians. It will be so cool.

Rohirrim
07-18-2013, 02:26 PM
Not to over simply a complicated situation, or get into a right/left pissing contest, but imo the only way cities like Detroit are going to make it is a complete paradigm shift in how the city is viewed. People think of Detroit as this automotive, industrial hub of the United States. What should be happening is Detroit should be transitioning into moving from a large metropolis, to a mid-sized city. And as such looking at industry conductive to a mid-sized city. Condense the spread out geographic nature of the city by clearing out block after block of blight. Turn the surrounding areas into a more rural/agricultural friendly place for industry. The vision needs to be to make Detroit a lot more like a Lincoln Nebraska and a lot less like trying to remake the 1950's Detroit of old.

Nobody is going to clean up the blight. They're just going to walk away.

Smiling Assassin27
07-18-2013, 02:37 PM
You're next, Baltimore:

The Baltimore city government is on a path to financial ruin and must enact major reforms to stave off bankruptcy, according to a 10-year forecast the city commissioned from an outside firm.

The forecast, obtained by The Associated Press ahead of its release to the public and the City Council on Wednesday, shows that the city will accumulate $745 million in budget deficits over the next decade because of a widening gap between projected revenues and expenditures.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/08/baltimore-bankruptcy_n_2645606.html


Democrat mayors since 1947 (save one 4 year term of a Republican). See a trend?

razorwire77
07-18-2013, 02:38 PM
Nobody is going to clean up the blight. They're just going to walk away.

Mexicans. Dead serious.

Tie immigration reform to Midwest rust bucket revitalization. You want a path to citizenship? Your choices are Detroit, Flint, or Cleveland.

Tombstone RJ
07-18-2013, 02:38 PM
Don't worry, the feds will bail out these cities. All is well. Nothing to see here, move along.

Tombstone RJ
07-18-2013, 02:40 PM
Mexicans. Dead serious.

Tie immigration reform to Midwest rust bucket revitalization. You want a path to citizenship? Your choices are Detroit, Flint, or Cleveland.

little known fact: Latinos tend to go where the work is. Do you see the problem with this fantastic idea?

razorwire77
07-18-2013, 02:45 PM
little known fact: Latinos tend to go where the work is. Do you see the problem with this fantastic idea?

Obviously, it would have to be a part of the greater plan to retract the unused urban parts of the city decay and promote more migrant industries. As a result, you would see ancillary industries also sprout up.

It would certainly beat the alternative fantasy land world that Detroit is going to "pull itself up by its bootstraps" and return to the industry hub it was 50 years ago.

:rofl:

broncocalijohn
07-18-2013, 02:52 PM
Bell, California and the state of Illinois on deck.

Bell, Calif was run by crooks and that is a whole other catagory. They were found guilty except for one councilman. The City manager will be found guilty once he is in front of a jury. Chief of Police should be in jail too. Crooks to the hilt.

Smiling Assassin27
07-18-2013, 02:53 PM
Bell, Calif was run by crooks and that is a whole other catagory. They were found guilty except for one councilman. The City manager will be found guilty once he is in front of a jury. Chief of Police should be in jail too. Crooks to the hilt.

Um, Detroit is Bell, CA on steroids. Corruption in Detroit makes Bell look like, well, Bell.

broncocalijohn
07-18-2013, 02:55 PM
I am getting political here but need to know when Jetmeck will be making an entrance.

Therefore, wonder what the public union workers were making in Detroit (and other soon to be bankrupt cities)?

broncocalijohn
07-18-2013, 02:57 PM
Um, Detroit is Bell, CA on steroids. Corruption in Detroit makes Bell look like, well, Bell.

But Bell didn't go under because of years of promises of higher pay to everyone. It went to the very few and they charged outrages fees to help pay for their corrupt lifestyle. We already know about Detroit's mayor in the past. Bell cannot be compared like apples to apples to the other cities. Bell officials are all going to jail (except one). Detroit won't have this happen...just crooks AND BAD MANAGEMENT for decades.

Smiling Assassin27
07-18-2013, 02:59 PM
Moody's Investors Service has slashed Chicago's general obligation and sales tax ratings by three notches to A3 from Aa3 due to the city's large and growing pension liabilities and related budget troubles.

The move affects $8.2 billion of Chicago's general obligation and sales tax debt, Moody's said in a statement. It will make it more expensive for the city to borrow money, and Moody's said it may further downgrade the ratings if conditions don't improve.

All Democrat mayors since 1931. Trend.

B-Large
07-18-2013, 05:21 PM
I think Unions had a lot to do with the issues in Detroit- they made car makers less nimble business and design wise, less customer oriented, less quality oriented, and as soon as there was competition from global competitors they got their clocks cleaned for a while. I am not pretending that management didn't get lax and ignore the fact that owning the market would not last forever, but Labor forced companies to produce cars no matter demand, pay idle workers no matter what, etc... its a bad mix

I have owned 2 honda and 1 chrysler.... the difference overall in all aspects is night and day, and I am basically a Honda customer for life until proven otherwise.

Either way, times changed and Detroit failed to. I am hoping bankruptcy will help the city shed some obligations, and get in a place that attracts business through tax incentives, tax credits, etc... I grew up in Buffalo and they are kind of a microcosm of Detroit- corrupt politics and large government have messed those cities up...

B-Large
07-18-2013, 05:26 PM
Detroit and California. Run by liberals.

Not really a parallel comparison. California is boom and bust, and in and of itself a 2 Trillion economy (1/4 of the US economy)- in boom times there is simply no end to prosperity, and bust times no worse looking fiscal outlook. But California will always be attractive because of it location, weather and ports. Is it any wonder why they pass everything in the State legislature? There is always the next boom to pay for it...

Detroit was a one hit wonder. In Boom times you promised everybody the world, locked it in, when it went bad couldn't rudder the ship any other way because of Unions. There is not boom on the horizon in Detroit, unless they have a huge oil plume under the city... lol...

baja
07-18-2013, 05:31 PM
Unfortunately this is just the beginning. More cities counties and states to follow.

baja
07-18-2013, 05:32 PM
The breaking of America is right on schedule

pricejj
07-18-2013, 05:53 PM
Detroit and California. Run by liberals.

Liberals and unions create a welfare state, and destruction of the US.

baja
07-18-2013, 05:57 PM
Liberals and unions create a welfare state, and destruction of the US.

Actually unions built the middle class the back bone of what made America great than they got out of hand and now they are all but dead due to globalism as America slides into feudalism. All by design.

Archer81
07-18-2013, 06:02 PM
Detroit has half the population it had in 1950. Entire blocks of wrecked and abandoned housing. No promising economic prospects. Horrible financial management.

Can't really be surprised that happened.

:Broncos:

baja
07-18-2013, 06:09 PM
Detroit has half the population it had in 1950. Entire blocks of wrecked and abandoned housing. No promising economic prospects. Horrible financial management.

Can't really be surprised that happened.

:Broncos:

So those 12 dollar houses will be even cheaper?

Archer81
07-18-2013, 06:20 PM
So those 12 dollar houses will be even cheaper?


Sure. Up to you if you want to live in Detroit. I hear Beirut or Damascus is nice, too.


:Broncos:

Requiem
07-18-2013, 06:44 PM
Some say the end is near...

Some say we'll see Armageddon soon...

Certainly hope we will...

*whistles Tool*

El Minion
07-18-2013, 06:51 PM
Liberals and unions create a welfare state, and destruction of the US.

You do realize that union membership has been declining for decades. You sure give the dwindling unions an outsize and inverse influence. Will the last remaining union member control the whole american economy? :wave:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Union_membership_in_us_1930-2010.png/400px-Union_membership_in_us_1930-2010.png

Rohirrim
07-18-2013, 07:18 PM
Liberals and unions create a welfare state, and destruction of the US.

And now we break into this propaganda crapola with an actual factoid:

In the last couple of years of this recession, incomes of the top 1% have gone up almost 12% while the incomes of the other 99% declined by .04%. Congress just cut food stamps while increasing subsidies to agribusiness.

Welfare state? Hilarious!

HILife
07-18-2013, 07:30 PM
Detroit and California. Run by liberals.

Your stupid ass again?!? Always looking for any opportunity to shoehorn some political bull**** into wrong Mane section. There is a whole section dedicated to your ignorant bull****. Let me help you find it.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/forumdisplay.php?f=25

TDmvp
07-18-2013, 09:03 PM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT9tj3DNyQ0kQvnMhneFpjKM3wTBN2HA Whw8RffkAfe1lqbk01e

Totally ...

ZONA
07-18-2013, 09:53 PM
You're next, Baltimore:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/08/baltimore-bankruptcy_n_2645606.html


Democrat mayors since 1947 (save one 4 year term of a Republican). See a trend?

Dude, take your right wing bias to the politics thread will ya. Oh I'm sure the world would just be perfect if Republicans ran everything right? No party is perfect. They all have flaws. Get over yourself and your completely narrow viewpoint of politics.

DBroncos4life
07-18-2013, 09:58 PM
Political parties are the worst thing in the country.

Archer81
07-18-2013, 10:37 PM
Political parties are the worst thing in the country.


Political parties are just the symptom. The disease is power. It's a helluva thing.


:Broncos:

pricejj
07-18-2013, 11:28 PM
Actually unions built the middle class the back bone of what made America great than they got out of hand and now they are all but dead due to globalism as America slides into feudalism. All by design.

The government worker and teacher's union in CO pension plans are massively underfunded.

And they tell us "we want to increase the CO income tax for education".

They don't give student's textbooks, while they collect full tenure pensions and retire at 55. Sickening.

pricejj
07-18-2013, 11:39 PM
In the last couple of years of this recession, incomes of the top 1% have gone up almost 12% while the incomes of the other 99% declined by .04%. Congress just cut food stamps while increasing subsidies to agribusiness.

Welfare state? Hilarious!

This "soak the rich" campaign will be briefly interupted by reality.

This administration passed an enormous tax increase into effect at the start of 2013. Taxes go up even more in 2014. I thought you said taxes created the middle class. The middle class is shrinking, and your plan isn't working.


1. Foodstamp enrollment is up 70% under this administration.
2. 75% of new jobs this year are part-time.
3. There have been 1 million people added to SS disability in the last year alone.
4. Real asset prices have skyrocketed out of the reach of average Americans.

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 06:11 AM
One of America's largest cities declares bankruptcy and the Dow goes up 78 points. What's wrong with this picture?

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 06:21 AM
This "soak the rich" campaign will be briefly interupted by reality.

This administration passed an enormous tax increase into effect at the start of 2013. Taxes go up even more in 2014. I thought you said taxes created the middle class. The middle class is shrinking, and your plan isn't working.


1. Foodstamp enrollment is up 70% under this administration.
2. 75% of new jobs this year are part-time.
3. There have been 1 million people added to SS disability in the last year alone.
4. Real asset prices have skyrocketed out of the reach of average Americans.

Under this administration? You mean under this recession? Under this massive redistribution plan of the Right? Wall Street and the banksters created this mess and who is profiting the most? Earth to Price: There are no good jobs! Ergo, people who can't find jobs must find some way to survive. I'm sure they appreciate the judgement of the Right Wingers on their moral turpitude and the sweeping moral generalizations while their party works hard in Washington to block every piece of legislation that doesn't feed more wealth to the top.

What is the Price solution? Let them starve? Fine. We should provide some kind of service for picking up the bodies, don't you think? For sanitations's sake? Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! As you do unto the least of mine you do unto me. ;D

When I was in kindergarten, they taught me that a greed based culture was wrong. They were right.

baja
07-19-2013, 06:27 AM
Under this administration? You mean under this recession? Under this massive redistribution plan of the Right? Wall Street and the banksters created this mess and who is profiting the most? Earth to Price: There are no good jobs! Ergo, people who can't find jobs must find some way to survive. I'm sure they appreciate the judgement of the Right Wingers on their moral turpitude and the sweeping moral generalizations while their party works hard in Washington to block every piece of legislation that doesn't feed more wealth to the top.

What is the Price solution? Let them starve? Fine. We should provide some kind of service for picking up the bodies, don't you think? For sanitations's sake? Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! As you do unto the least of mine you do unto me. ;D

When I was in kindergarten, they taught me that a greed based culture was wrong. They were right.


The thing is its as good as its gonna get right now for a good long while. Do you disagree?

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 06:40 AM
The thing is its as good as its gonna get right now for a good long while. Do you disagree?

It goes in cycles. Humans aren't smart. It takes them centuries to learn very simple lessons. Take "Greed is good." We've known that is wrong since the time of the Sumerians, but we're still working on it. Anyway, this small window between ice ages has allowed mankind to flourish and create civilization in this short period of climate stabilization. That is coming to an end. ;D

elsid13
07-19-2013, 06:43 AM
One of America's largest cities declares bankruptcy and the Dow goes up 78 points. What's wrong with this picture?

Really good news on industrials (GE), especially infrastructure orders in the US and emerging markets.

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 07:04 AM
Really good news on industrials (GE), especially infrastructure orders in the US and emerging markets.

"Emerging markets?" The investor class has been dropped into the global pool, as have the labor class. For the investor class, that is a boon. Diversification. No longer strapped to the fate of their countrymen. For the labor class, it is destruction. They compete against SE Asia for jobs. For our cities and our people? Bad news. For the one percenters? Vacations in Switzerland and Cayman Island bank accounts getting nice and plump.

Kaylore
07-19-2013, 07:11 AM
Personally, I think our laws and trade policies should be written in such a way as to keep our jobs and industries in our own country, and keep our cities solvent, rather than to prop up the well-being of global corporations who hide their assets off shore and who couldn't give a **** about this country.

Thank you, opinion from 1985.

Half a century later, things have changed. A lot of "American" cars are made overseas. And a lot of foreign cars have plants here in the US. And since they are bought and sold like trading cars, with different parent companies, you can't cling to this "America 4 ever" line of thinking with products.

As someone said, rather than buying American because 'Merica!!!!! Why don't American companies make better vehicles? A lot of foreign companies employee American workers too.

Kaylore
07-19-2013, 07:14 AM
For the labor class, it is destruction. They compete against SE Asia for jobs. For our cities and our people? Bad news. For the one percenters? Vacations in Switzerland and Cayman Island bank accounts getting nice and plump.

Thank you, opinion from 1965.

Our economy isn't one of manual labor anymore - and thank goodness.

A side effect of the information age and that the populace is more educated is people don't have to go put rivets into piece metal over and over 8 hours a day on an assembly line for work. They can do other things.

UberBroncoMan
07-19-2013, 07:26 AM
Just in time for the RoboCop reboot.

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 07:33 AM
Thank you, opinion from 1965.

Our economy isn't one of manual labor anymore - and thank goodness.

A side effect of the information age and that the populace is more educated is people don't have to go put rivets into piece metal over and over 8 hours a day on an assembly line for work. They can do other things.

The "information" jobs have gone overseas too. Face it. The American worker is getting sold out in exchange for the profits of a very small number of the investor class. The economy has been rigged. Like Warren Buffett said, "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.”

Shall we just stand on the sidelines and praise the philosophy of global free trade while our cities collapse?

baja
07-19-2013, 07:35 AM
The "information" jobs have gone overseas too. Face it. The American worker is getting sold out in exchange for the profits of a very small number of the investor class. The economy has been rigged. Like Warren Buffett said, "“There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.”


Winning right up until they get their heads chopped off. At least in the past, today, who knows.

Kaylore
07-19-2013, 08:05 AM
The "information" jobs have gone overseas too. Face it. The American worker is getting sold out in exchange for the profits of a very small number of the investor class. The economy has been rigged. Like Warren Buffett said, "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.”

Shall we just stand on the sidelines and praise the philosophy of global free trade while our cities collapse?

What's funny about this is it's leftist policies that drive American companies away. You jack up taxes and create stingy environmental laws and ridiculous union demands - so companies naturally go somewhere it's easier to operate.

And when businesses are given the freedom to operate, and technology is used correctly, it's making it easier to compete. I can do my job from home. that's less money spent on bricks and mortar and I save money on gas.

My father in law started a business for learning tools. He contracted to a strategist in Maine and a graphic artist in Brazil. He's never met either one but they work for him thanks to technology.

You liberals will never understand business. You want to force feed everything a certain way, and when business keep finding ways around your attempts to make it do what you want, you throw tantrums.

It's like you want to make all businesses not reward executives, because they "obviously are overpaid and don't do anything", but still have good, capable leadership, but also pay their menial workers above-market value, and they have to hire workers to keep employment low and it helps people - hiring people should not have anything to do with how much value a worker adds of even if he is necessary to a company - companies should hire people to "help everyone out", and also the workers have to have amazing benefits, and they need to be able to invest but have zero risk in investing for their retirement, and they should be in a union so the union can take money <s>to donate to DNC candidates and policies</s> to run, but the company also has to create good products from materials that are %100 environmentally sound, but also not charge too much because that's mean to the poor, and the company has to pay a lot of taxes too, because it's not enough that this environmentally friendly company that builds inexpensive things and hires people and gives them tons of benefits out of the goodness of their heart. No, all need to pay taxes, so they should pay taxes, lots of taxes, for government things. And the company shouldn't adjust their labor, cost of production or price of goods when we tax them. They have to keep everything the same and just pay the taxes because. And the company needs to do all of this and still survive.

And you guys are baffled why it doesn't work that way.

Business flows the direction of least resistance. You can keep trying to control it at every turn, unsuccessfully and frustratingly, or you can channel it to work for you.

ZONA
07-19-2013, 08:46 AM
What's funny about this is it's leftist policies that drive American companies away. You jack up taxes and create stingy environmental laws and ridiculous union demands - so companies naturally go somewhere it's easier to operate.

And when businesses are given the freedom to operate, and technology is used correctly, it's making it easier to compete. I can do my job from home. that's less money spent on bricks and mortar and I save money on gas.

My father in law started a business for learning tools. He contracted to a strategist in Maine and a graphic artist in Brazil. He's never met either one but they work for him thanks to technology.

You liberals will never understand business. You want to force feed everything a certain way, and when business keep finding ways around your attempts to make it do what you want, you throw tantrums.

It's like you want to make all businesses not reward executives, because they "obviously are overpaid and don't do anything", but still have good, capable leadership, but also pay their menial workers above-market value, and they have to hire workers to keep employment low and it helps people - hiring people should not have anything to do with how much value a worker adds of even if he is necessary to a company - companies should hire people to "help everyone out", and also the workers have to have amazing benefits, and they need to be able to invest but have zero risk in investing for their retirement, and they should be in a union so the union can take money <s>to donate to DNC candidates and policies</s> to run, but the company also has to create good products from materials that are %100 environmentally sound, but also not charge too much because that's mean to the poor, and the company has to pay a lot of taxes too, because it's not enough that this environmentally friendly company that builds inexpensive things and hires people and gives them tons of benefits out of the goodness of their heart. No, all need to pay taxes, so they should pay taxes, lots of taxes, for government things. And the company shouldn't adjust their labor, cost of production or price of goods when we tax them. They have to keep everything the same and just pay the taxes because. And the company needs to do all of this and still survive.

And you guys are baffled why it doesn't work that way.

Business flows the direction of least resistance. You can keep trying to control it at every turn, unsuccessfully and frustratingly, or you can channel it to work for you.

Let's be real. They don't go take their companies over seas for any reason other then cheap MF labor. Period. If Apple could build iphones here and pay the workers what they pay them in China, iphones would be made here.

And you may not work in labor but there are a large chunk of Americans who do and there's nothing wrong with that. The fact that labor jobs in America have become almost extinct is not a good thing, no matter what you think. Those labor jobs help some folks out of poverty. So while many of our American companies ship jobs over seas to save billions on labor, they also get monster tax write offs and some don't even come close to paying the same amount of tax % as you or I, not to mention many of the top earners do stash their cash away in offshore accounts and don't pay a red cent of tax. So don't lay it out like America is such a bad place for business and they can't thrive here. Complete BS.

elsid13
07-19-2013, 08:51 AM
"Emerging markets?" The investor class has been dropped into the global pool, as have the labor class. For the investor class, that is a boon. Diversification. No longer strapped to the fate of their countrymen. For the labor class, it is destruction. They compete against SE Asia for jobs. For our cities and our people? Bad news. For the one percenters? Vacations in Switzerland and Cayman Island bank accounts getting nice and plump.

Emerging market meant that those countries were buying stuff from US in capital equipment arena. It meant more Americans were working and producing stuff for export.

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 08:52 AM
What's funny about this is it's leftist policies that drive American companies away. You jack up taxes and create stingy environmental laws and ridiculous union demands - so companies naturally go somewhere it's easier to operate.

And when businesses are given the freedom to operate, and technology is used correctly, it's making it easier to compete. I can do my job from home. that's less money spent on bricks and mortar and I save money on gas.

My father in law started a business for learning tools. He contracted to a strategist in Maine and a graphic artist in Brazil. He's never met either one but they work for him thanks to technology.

You liberals will never understand business. You want to force feed everything a certain way, and when business keep finding ways around your attempts to make it do what you want, you throw tantrums.

It's like you want to make all businesses not reward executives, because they "obviously are overpaid and don't do anything", but still have good, capable leadership, but also pay their menial workers above-market value, and they have to hire workers to keep employment low and it helps people - hiring people should not have anything to do with how much value a worker adds of even if he is necessary to a company - companies should hire people to "help everyone out", and also the workers have to have amazing benefits, and they need to be able to invest but have zero risk in investing for their retirement, and they should be in a union so the union can take money <s>to donate to DNC candidates and policies</s> to run, but the company also has to create good products from materials that are %100 environmentally sound, but also not charge too much because that's mean to the poor, and the company has to pay a lot of taxes too, because it's not enough that this environmentally friendly company that builds inexpensive things and hires people and gives them tons of benefits out of the goodness of their heart. No, all need to pay taxes, so they should pay taxes, lots of taxes, for government things. And the company shouldn't adjust their labor, cost of production or price of goods when we tax them. They have to keep everything the same and just pay the taxes because. And the company needs to do all of this and still survive.

And you guys are baffled why it doesn't work that way.

Business flows the direction of least resistance. You can keep trying to control it at every turn, unsuccessfully and frustratingly, or you can channel it to work for you.

I think you make a bunch of wrong assumptions. One is that small business in America has the same concerns as global corporations. That's not true at all. They're two different animals. Another is that a single person pursuing their own wealth to the exclusion of the concerns of the world around them is a good thing. It's not. Another is that CEOs making a thousand (or more) times what their average employee makes is simply a result of inevitable free market forces at work. It's not. Another is that we can simply ignore the environment, the needs of our fellow citizens, and the requirements of citizenship in our country, but if we simply pursue wealth in an unfettered economy, everything else will work itself out. The magic of market forces fixes all. That's ridiculous.

The fact is we live in a country of people. If we adopt a philosophy of laissez faire capitalism where the operating ethic is "Shareholders come first" and let the losers take the hind teat, then we must accept that we are going to live in that environment as well. Numerous studies show that as inequality goes up, so does crime, prison building, early death, health care costs, societal unrest, etc. etc. etc. So, you choose the policies and you choose your world. If you choose the law of the jungle, then you choose to live in a jungle.

Regarding Detroit, as this article points out, how many other cities are now going to entertain the idea of dumping their public pensions and other costs related to providing services? And what happens to all the people (probably, mostly elderly) who get dumped?
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/detroit-bankruptcy-could-hit-millions-public-sector-retirees-6C10681571

Conservatives believe in magic. They believe that you if get rid of taxes and get rid of government that everything will fix itself, even the environment, and we'll live in utopia. Actually, the opposite is more likely true.

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 09:00 AM
Emerging market meant that those countries were buying stuff from US in capital equipment arena. It meant more Americans were working and producing stuff for export.

Come on. Our trade deficit is going up, not down.

The trade deficit rose to $45 billion in May, up 12.1 percent from $40.1 billion in April, the Commerce Department said on Wednesday. It was the largest trade gap since November.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/business/economy/us-trade-deficit-grew-in-may-analysts-downgrade-forecasts.html

Why? Because other countries protect their markets and their workers. Not us. Why? Because global corporations buy our Congress, write our trade policies, our tax laws, and our market regulations.

Kaylore
07-19-2013, 09:00 AM
Let's be real. They don't go take their companies over seas for any reason other then cheap MF labor. Period. If Apple could build iphones here and pay the workers what they pay them in China, iphones would be made here.

And you may not work in labor but there are a large chunk of Americans who do and there's nothing wrong with that. The fact that labor jobs in America have become almost extinct is not a good thing, no matter what you think. Those labor jobs help some folks out of poverty. So while many of our American companies ship jobs over seas to save billions on labor, they also get monster tax write offs and some don't even come close to paying the same amount of tax % as you or I, not to mention many of the top earners do stash their cash away in offshore accounts and don't pay a red cent of tax. So don't lay it out like America is such a bad place for business and they can't thrive here. Complete BS.

When did I say that? Thankfully most states don't create a socialist crap fest that makes jobs difficult to maintain and impossible to start like in California. There are ways to make a company feed the government income. Destroying that company or scaring them away isn't one of them. And I'm not suggesting we allow companies to poor toxic waste into the water and allow children to work 18 hour shifts either. There are companies that can work and treat their employees well that work in America.

But "buying American" and forcing companies to hire American workers is stupid and doesn't work anyway. You're either rewarding mediocrity or dooming a business to create mediocrity to cut costs.

The nature of business evolves and you have to evolve your strategy with the environment. You need create circumstances that are friendly to the kinds of businesses that can succeed and will still be relevant long term. I'm not anti-labor, but I don't believe we need to out-labor China or India. There are other ways to create employment for that class of worker in the US without it being in a large factory.

Kaylore
07-19-2013, 09:04 AM
Conservatives believe in magic. They believe that you if get rid of taxes and get rid of government that everything will fix itself, even the environment, and we'll live in utopia. Actually, the opposite is more likely true.

You're the ones that want all these regulations, taxes, employee benefits, mandatory hiring practices and somehow it all magically to stay profitable. Which group isn't living in reality?

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 09:12 AM
When did I say that? Thankfully most states don't create a socialist crap fest that makes jobs difficult to maintain and impossible to start like in California. There are ways to make a company feed the government income. Destroying that company or scaring them away isn't one of them. And I'm not suggesting we allow companies to poor toxic waste into the water and allow children to work 18 hour shifts either. There are companies that can work and treat their employees well that work in America.

But "buying American" and forcing companies to hire American workers is stupid and doesn't work anyway. You're either rewarding mediocrity or dooming a business to create mediocrity to cut costs.

The nature of business evolves and you have to evolve your strategy with the environment. You need create circumstances that are friendly to the kinds of businesses that can succeed and will still be relevant long term. I'm not anti-labor, but I don't believe we need to out-labor China or India. There are other ways to create employment for that class of worker in the US without it being in a large factory.

California took the biggest hit in the recession not because of government welfare or pensions, but because its banks engaged in some of the worst excesses in the country when it came to the real estate bubble. California's housing sector is the largest in America and its real estate the most overpriced, so the excesses there were worse, and the subsequent crash the worst. In other words, it had the worst figures for mortgage overreach in the country. And why? Because we deregulated and deregulated until we turned banks into dealers and the housing market into a casino. And then, when the bubble explodes, we blame poor people. :rofl:

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 09:23 AM
You're the ones that want all these regulations, taxes, employee benefits, mandatory hiring practices and somehow it all magically to stay profitable. Which group isn't living in reality?

I don't know who the "we" would be. I can only speak for myself. I think the first target should be best quality of life for the most, like the founders wrote in the preamble. The belief that profitability should be the primary barometer of human activity is mercenary, IMHO. When I look at taxes, regulations, employee benefits etc. I look at the results I want to obtain, not the noise from the whining rich.

Look at it this way: In the last thirty years, the rich in America have gotten the largest tax cuts in our history. The markets have been massively deregulated. It's a giant casino spewing out wealth to the few. The rich have profited from all these changes more than anybody in history. The American rich are richer than Crassus at the height of the Roman Empire. Are they satisfied? Are they happy? Or do they want more? Ask the Koch Brothers. There's your answer right there.

Kaylore
07-19-2013, 09:37 AM
I don't know who the "we" would be. I can only speak for myself. I think the first target should be best quality of life for the most, like the founders wrote in the preamble. The belief that profitability should be the primary barometer of human activity is mercenary, IMHO. When I look at taxes, regulations, employee benefits etc. I look at the results I want to obtain, not the noise from the whining rich.

Look at it this way: In the last thirty years, the rich in America have gotten the largest tax cuts in our history. The markets have been massively deregulated. It's a giant casino spewing out wealth to the few. The rich have profited from all these changes more than anybody in history. The American rich are richer than Crassus at the height of the Roman Empire. Are they satisfied? Are they happy? Or do they want more? Ask the Koch Brothers. There's your answer right there.

That's the difference between you and me. You are upset someone has more than you. I couldn't care less.

SoCalBronco
07-19-2013, 09:58 AM
When did I say that? Thankfully most states don't create a socialist crap fest that makes jobs difficult to maintain and impossible to start like in California. There are ways to make a company feed the government income. Destroying that company or scaring them away isn't one of them. And I'm not suggesting we allow companies to poor toxic waste into the water and allow children to work 18 hour shifts either. There are companies that can work and treat their employees well that work in America.

But "buying American" and forcing companies to hire American workers is stupid and doesn't work anyway. You're either rewarding mediocrity or dooming a business to create mediocrity to cut costs.

The nature of business evolves and you have to evolve your strategy with the environment. You need create circumstances that are friendly to the kinds of businesses that can succeed and will still be relevant long term. I'm not anti-labor, but I don't believe we need to out-labor China or India. There are other ways to create employment for that class of worker in the US without it being in a large factory.

Khan owning again.

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 09:59 AM
That's the difference between you and me. You are upset someone has more than you. I couldn't care less.

Only when I see it eroding away the future of my children and my country. Greed is like heroin. They won't be satisfied until they have the whole pie. Including my piece. And your piece. And if they have to destroy the planet and half of mankind to get there, they don't give a **** about that either. The junkie wants a fix. He doesn't care about anything else. Right now, IMO, junkies are running this country.

Doesn't it bother you that the super-rich are hiding $32 trillion in offshore accounts? That's more than a third of the world's GDP. In other words, they profit from the societies and infrastructures that we have collectively built, but they refuse to pay for it. Frankly, that kind of greed disgusts me. They are parasites.

Kaylore
07-19-2013, 10:12 AM
Only when I see it eroding away the future of my children and my country. Greed is like heroin. They won't be satisfied until they have the whole pie. Including my piece. And your piece. And if they have to destroy the planet and half of mankind to get there, they don't give a **** about that either. The junkie wants a fix. He doesn't care about anything else. Right now, IMO, junkies are running this country.

Doesn't it bother you that the super-rich are hiding $32 trillion in offshore accounts? That's more than a third of the world's GDP. In other words, they profit from the societies and infrastructures that we have collectively built, but they refuse to pay for it. Frankly, that kind of greed disgusts me. They are parasites.

Tell me how you would spend other people's money better than they do...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G991MwIKNO8/T9Ni6lrepXI/AAAAAAAABTY/nHB3LWSf1no/s400/Gene+Wilder.jpg

Pony Boy
07-19-2013, 10:22 AM
I say give any company a huge tax break that is willing to build a factory in a state that will create 5000 tax paying jobs. Those employees spend their paychecks in the community and pay taxes. The liberals will never understand this concept, all they are concerned with is taxing the hand that feeds them.

Evil corporations make too much profit for their stock holders that put their money at risk.

Tombstone RJ
07-19-2013, 10:28 AM
What's funny about this is it's leftist policies that drive American companies away. You jack up taxes and create stingy environmental laws and ridiculous union demands - so companies naturally go somewhere it's easier to operate.

And when businesses are given the freedom to operate, and technology is used correctly, it's making it easier to compete. I can do my job from home. that's less money spent on bricks and mortar and I save money on gas.

My father in law started a business for learning tools. He contracted to a strategist in Maine and a graphic artist in Brazil. He's never met either one but they work for him thanks to technology.

You liberals will never understand business. You want to force feed everything a certain way, and when business keep finding ways around your attempts to make it do what you want, you throw tantrums.

It's like you want to make all businesses not reward executives, because they "obviously are overpaid and don't do anything", but still have good, capable leadership, but also pay their menial workers above-market value, and they have to hire workers to keep employment low and it helps people - hiring people should not have anything to do with how much value a worker adds of even if he is necessary to a company - companies should hire people to "help everyone out", and also the workers have to have amazing benefits, and they need to be able to invest but have zero risk in investing for their retirement, and they should be in a union so the union can take money <s>to donate to DNC candidates and policies</s> to run, but the company also has to create good products from materials that are %100 environmentally sound, but also not charge too much because that's mean to the poor, and the company has to pay a lot of taxes too, because it's not enough that this environmentally friendly company that builds inexpensive things and hires people and gives them tons of benefits out of the goodness of their heart. No, all need to pay taxes, so they should pay taxes, lots of taxes, for government things. And the company shouldn't adjust their labor, cost of production or price of goods when we tax them. They have to keep everything the same and just pay the taxes because. And the company needs to do all of this and still survive.

And you guys are baffled why it doesn't work that way.

Business flows the direction of least resistance. You can keep trying to control it at every turn, unsuccessfully and frustratingly, or you can channel it to work for you.

the liberals are the most unreasonable group there is. They are dogmatic in their agenda and their agenda is based on hate mongering, lies, and a basic hatred of the American/free market way. It's the same old crap they've been spewing for years, it's a socialistic agenda with a social engineering based on making people more and more dependent on the state. It sucks, and the liberals refuse to acknowledge just how corrupt and hell bent on Americas' destruction they are. BO is a lousy, crappy, horrible president. But who is getting the blame for the grid lock in DC? The conservatives, of course!

Tombstone RJ
07-19-2013, 10:37 AM
California took the biggest hit in the recession not because of government welfare or pensions, but because its banks engaged in some of the worst excesses in the country when it came to the real estate bubble. California's housing sector is the largest in America and its real estate the most overpriced, so the excesses there were worse, and the subsequent crash the worst. In other words, it had the worst figures for mortgage overreach in the country. And why? Because we deregulated and deregulated until we turned banks into dealers and the housing market into a casino. And then, when the bubble explodes, we blame poor people. :rofl:

I disagree. I think it's because of what Clinton did back in the 1990s with Fannie and Freddie and giving loans to people who could not pay them back.

I call your post BS of the highest order. I bet that CA is suffering from over development and a large portion of the population defualting on loans that they should have never got to begin with.

Sure, wall street started trading mass groupings of mortgages around WS found a loophole on how to profit from all these mortgages. The problem is all these crappy mortgages were a result of BILL CLINTON'S stupid policy to lower the standards for loans so that the lower classes could buy property.

Well, we now know that didn't work.

Tombstone RJ
07-19-2013, 10:46 AM
Only when I see it eroding away the future of my children and my country. Greed is like heroin. They won't be satisfied until they have the whole pie. Including my piece. And your piece. And if they have to destroy the planet and half of mankind to get there, they don't give a **** about that either. The junkie wants a fix. He doesn't care about anything else. Right now, IMO, corrupt politicians like BO are running this country.

Doesn't it bother you that the super-rich are hiding $32 trillion in offshore accounts? That's more than a third of the world's GDP. In other words, they profit from the societies and infrastructures that we have collectively built, but they refuse to pay for it. Frankly, that kind of greed disgusts me. They are parasites.

fyp.

There's no doubt that WS and the uber wealthy dictate policy in DC. I don't disagree with you on this. The problem is BO was supposed to change all that, right? BO, the president of "change."

BO will retire as the president soon enough and his personal wealth will go threw the roof. He's gonna be a millionaire soon enough. Part of the glorious 1% you and your ilk keep railing against. When we look back on BO's tenure as the president, we will see power, corruption and lies.

Archer81
07-19-2013, 11:04 AM
Well that escalated quickly...

Moving to the WRP forum.


:Broncos:

Drunken.Broncoholic
07-19-2013, 11:28 AM
California took the biggest hit in the recession not because of government welfare or pensions, but because its banks engaged in some of the worst excesses in the country when it came to the real estate bubble. California's housing sector is the largest in America and its real estate the most overpriced, so the excesses there were worse, and the subsequent crash the worst. In other words, it had the worst figures for mortgage overreach in the country. And why? Because we deregulated and deregulated until we turned banks into dealers and the housing market into a casino. And then, when the bubble explodes, we blame poor people. :rofl:

Complete BS.

Who pressured those banks? Who controlled Fannie and Freddie? You want to blame someone blame the loser who bought a house knowing dam well he couldn't afford it. Then went out and bought a boat. Last i checked it was across the country not just cali. Nevada for example. And to say Cali isn't screwed on blown out pensions is beyond ridiculous.


I love when people always blame others for stupidity. Personal responsibility is lost in this country.

pricejj
07-19-2013, 11:52 AM
Detroit is the end result of 50 years of Liberal social and economic policy.

alkemical
07-19-2013, 11:59 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/28/harrisburg-bankruptcy-option-idUSL1E8MJ5VN20121128

elsid13
07-19-2013, 12:01 PM
Detroit is the end result of 50 years of Liberal social and economic policy.

Not hardly. It is the result of foreign automakers entering the market and the big 3 moving out of Detroit to more modern facilities while leaving their decaying infrastructure behind and white flight into the suburbs. This reduce tax base slowly caused this problem.

alkemical
07-19-2013, 12:09 PM
The UrbanAG movement in DET is a great thing. There can be some good ideas on innovation that happen here. I'm aware of one project that is happening with regards to urbanAG projects and from what i can tell it's going to be a good project. I'll note more when i'm allowed to get specific.

B-Large
07-19-2013, 12:42 PM
Detroit is the end result of 50 years of Liberal social and economic policy.

Detroit much like Buffalo is the result of location next to bodies of water, a strong steel an manufacturing boom because of it, a boom time nobody figured could end so they made big promises, it did end, and the city fell apart.

NYS and Calfornia are liberal stong holds, they are also the two beacons of the US economy in tech and finance... are those other examples of liberal policy failure?

Archer81
07-19-2013, 12:54 PM
Detroit much like Buffalo is the result of location next to bodies of water, a strong steel an manufacturing boom because of it, a boom time nobody figured could end so they made big promises, it did end, and the city fell apart.

NYS and Calfornia are liberal stong holds, they are also the two beacons of the US economy in tech and finance... are those other examples of liberal policy failure?


Both Cali and NY are losing population and businesses to states like Texas and North Dakota. I wonder why that is...

I also read that Houston is starting to rival NYC as the US' busiest port. Interesting shift going on.

:Broncos:

B-Large
07-19-2013, 12:59 PM
Both Cali and NY are losing population and businesses to states like Texas and North Dakota. I wonder why that is...

I also read that Houston is starting to rival NYC as the US' busiest port. Interesting shift going on.

:Broncos:

Yeah, they'll go to ND until the oil boom is done, then realize nobody want to come there cause its a tundra. Also, tech is not leaving California anytime soon, they make so much money they don't care- plus California has hands down the best weather around and people will pay a premium to live there, they already do. I would also argue ND is not taking business away form NY or CALI, it is more like Wyo, Colo, Okla, Texas and the other Petro States.

NYS is the financial center, even wonder why Terrorists don't bomb Houston, Dallas...

Wyoming, Oklahoma and other mid West States are super cheap to do business in.. why are they not economic juggernauts then? Cause they suck to live in for the most part... People want to live in desirable places, companies know that and will typically locate where it is desirable.

W*GS
07-19-2013, 01:07 PM
Lewis Black on NYC vs. TX (very NSFW):

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/QRofSFMMbuM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Bronco Yoda
07-19-2013, 03:17 PM
It's like you want to make all businesses not reward executives, because they "obviously are overpaid and don't do anything", but still have good, capable leadership, but also pay their menial workers above-market value, and they have to hire workers to keep employment low and it helps people - hiring people should not have anything to do with how much value a worker adds of even if he is necessary to a company - companies should hire people to "help everyone out", and also the workers have to have amazing benefits, and they need to be able to invest but have zero risk in investing for their retirement, and they should be in a union so the union can take money <s>to donate to DNC candidates and policies</s> to run, but the company also has to create good products from materials that are %100 environmentally sound, but also not charge too much because that's mean to the poor, and the company has to pay a lot of taxes too, because it's not enough that this environmentally friendly company that builds inexpensive things and hires people and gives them tons of benefits out of the goodness of their heart.

That is one long ass sentence. :giggle::thumbs:

ColoradoDarin
07-19-2013, 03:41 PM
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q227/dhaus5650/obamadetroit-600x337_zps17430cfe.jpg

Archer81
07-19-2013, 03:55 PM
Yeah, they'll go to ND until the oil boom is done, then realize nobody want to come there cause its a tundra. Also, tech is not leaving California anytime soon, they make so much money they don't care- plus California has hands down the best weather around and people will pay a premium to live there, they already do. I would also argue ND is not taking business away form NY or CALI, it is more like Wyo, Colo, Okla, Texas and the other Petro States.

NYS is the financial center, even wonder why Terrorists don't bomb Houston, Dallas...

Wyoming, Oklahoma and other mid West States are super cheap to do business in.. why are they not economic juggernauts then? Cause they suck to live in for the most part... People want to live in desirable places, companies know that and will typically locate where it is desirable.


NYC is desirable? Its either too muggy and hot, or too wet and freezing. And no matter how totally kick ass the weather is, if you cannot afford to live there, you will move. Companies go where they can afford to operate. And for the last 10 years that is not California or NY. Unless you are arguing India and China are more desirable then SoCal or NYS.


:Broncos:

El Minion
07-19-2013, 05:13 PM
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q227/dhaus5650/obamadetroit-600x337_zps17430cfe.jpg

He has a whole country and brought it back from the shîter that was the Bush administration :thanku:

baja
07-19-2013, 06:39 PM
He has a whole country and brought it back from the shîter that was the Bush administration :thanku:

Really when did he do that?

ColoradoDarin
07-19-2013, 06:43 PM
He has a whole country and brought it back from the shîter that was the Bush administration :thanku:

http://reflectionsofarationalrepublican.files.wordpress.c om/2012/09/bush-vs-obama-labor-force-participation-rate-august-2012-data.jpg?w=640

:kiss:

pricejj
07-19-2013, 06:44 PM
Detroit much like Buffalo is the result of location next to bodies of water, a strong steel an manufacturing boom because of it, a boom time nobody figured could end so they made big promises, it did end, and the city fell apart.

I didn't know that the world didn't make cars any more? Why did GM and Chrysler end? They put out an inferior product that couldn't compete, along with ridiculous UAW union contracts.

Why did Detroit go bankrupt? Because the Detroit city government borrowed too much money. Not because they live next to water moron.

NYS and Calfornia are liberal stong holds, they are also the two beacons of the US economy in tech and finance... are those other examples of liberal policy failure?

NY NY is the Capitalist capital of the world. Nothing of which had to do with liberal economic policies.

And yes, California's government has been broken for 30 years. Maybe you haven't been following the news during that time period.

mhgaffney
07-19-2013, 06:50 PM
But wait -- I thought we were in a recovery...????

baja
07-19-2013, 06:54 PM
Why are so many Americans like those special souls on the Titanic that refused to leave the dining room because dessert had not been served yet?

W*GS
07-19-2013, 07:05 PM
[...]

You conservatives forget how the economy was in near-total free-fall at the end of your boy Bush's misadministration.

http://www.cbpp.org/images/chartbook_images/1.1-GDP-change-OPT.jpg

Rohirrim
07-19-2013, 08:31 PM
Complete BS.

Who pressured those banks? Who controlled Fannie and Freddie? You want to blame someone blame the loser who bought a house knowing dam well he couldn't afford it. Then went out and bought a boat. Last i checked it was across the country not just cali. Nevada for example. And to say Cali isn't screwed on blown out pensions is beyond ridiculous.


I love when people always blame others for stupidity. Personal responsibility is lost in this country.

Bull****? Nope. http://metrostudies.berkeley.edu/pubs/reports/Walker_93.pdf

broncocalijohn
07-19-2013, 11:29 PM
If Drunken can't see that a massive drop in our economy was based on home prices in California tanking then there is no help for him. I am in the real estate business and my advertising revenue went down 80%! There are many people tied into real estate and went that took a nose dive in California, the mass majority suffered. You can blame it on Clinton, Greenspan, congress, Bush, etc. but don't change the fact that the housing market had nothing to do with the collapse of California's economy.

BroncoBeavis
07-20-2013, 07:29 AM
You do realize that union membership has been declining for decades. You sure give the dwindling unions an outsize and inverse influence. Will the last remaining union member control the whole american economy? :wave:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Union_membership_in_us_1930-2010.png/400px-Union_membership_in_us_1930-2010.png

Where are all the union retirees on that chart? LOL

Pensions are the real issue. Any time you're forced to pay more to those not working than those who are, its a sketchy formula for economic success.

BroncoBeavis
07-20-2013, 07:36 AM
You conservatives forget how the economy was in near-total free-fall at the end of your boy Bush's misadministration.

http://www.cbpp.org/images/chartbook_images/1.1-GDP-change-OPT.jpg

Beware any chart that attempts to compare changyness. Almost always an exercise in propaganda as we've seen over and over again on here.

Rohirrim
07-20-2013, 08:52 AM
Where are all the union retirees on that chart? LOL

Pensions are the real issue. Any time you're forced to pay more to those not working than those who are, its a sketchy formula for economic success.

What came first, the inability of municipalities to pay their legal obligations (including pensions) or the crash of the economy due to the out of control greed of bankers?

And now it's the pensioners' faults? This is why I despise the Right Wing.

barryr
07-20-2013, 09:50 AM
Big banks got bailed out and continue to do so to pay their CEO's huge bonuses. Funny how Walmart is blamed for taking out it's competition, but look at what happened to the smaller banks. Hundreds of banks, probably thousands, out off business the last 5-10 years. And again, they got bailed out to do more of the same and it wasn't done only be republicans either as some want to believe.

El Minion
07-20-2013, 10:29 AM
Where are all the union retirees on that chart? LOL

Pensions are the real issue. Any time you're forced to pay more to those not working than those who are, its a sketchy formula for economic success.

To paraphrase Keynes, on a long enough timeline everyone's survival rate drops to zero. Now it's pensioners, particularly zombie pensioners holding back economic success. Hilarious!

El Minion
07-20-2013, 10:42 AM
Big banks got bailed out and continue to do so to pay their CEO's huge bonuses. Funny how Walmart is blamed for taking out it's competition, but look at what happened to the smaller banks. Hundreds of banks, probably thousands, out off business the last 5-10 years. And again, they got bailed out to do more of the same and it wasn't done only be republicans either as some want to believe.

I think the apocalypse is coming, actual agree with this post Yikes!. Now if you can go a little further and support bringing back the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 which led to those small bank closures and the Great Recession.

Arkie
07-20-2013, 11:18 AM
Where are all the union retirees on that chart? LOL

Pensions are the real issue. Any time you're forced to pay more to those not working than those who are, its a sketchy formula for economic success.

Some public workers will spend more of their life collecting benefits than they did working. There may already be a few.

broncocalijohn
07-20-2013, 11:22 AM
What came first, the inability of municipalities to pay their legal obligations (including pensions) or the crash of the economy due to the out of control greed of bankers?

And now it's the pensioners' faults? This is why I despise the Right Wing.

The bankers happened much quicker. Pensions was/is something that is a problem over the long haul. Years ago, unions got less hourly wage but benefits was the key to their job. Now they get their cake and ice cream as the hourly wage is more than the private sector in many sectors and they get a fat percentage of their last salary for retirement. When you give 85% or even close to that to the public union members and they live to 90, you are going to have major problems. It hasn't happened yet as some of these workers are still active and now working at their 2nd public union job so they can really double dip hardcore when it comes time to retire....again. California will be screwed at this pace.

BroncoBeavis
07-21-2013, 11:26 AM
What came first, the inability of municipalities to pay their legal obligations (including pensions) or the crash of the economy due to the out of control greed of bankers?

And now it's the pensioners' faults? This is why I despise the Right Wing.

It's a systemic problem with pensions in general, but especially those doled out by professional vote-getters, who are always long gone once the bill for their vote-getting comes due.

It's a ridiculous expectation you have that a system can be sustainable while paying far more for retirees than workers. For pensions to really work, their real-world cost needs to be paid as the worker goes. Unfortunately, for the professional vote-getter, it's easier to promise that some future sucker will pay the tab for his years at the open bar. Death spiral is what comes of it. Detroit is exhibit A. More to come.

BroncoBeavis
07-21-2013, 11:30 AM
Some public workers will spend more of their life collecting benefits than they did working. There may already be a few.

Happens all the time. And the real cost is almost never paid up front. Some day, someone gets stuck holding the bag. The clock just ran out in Detroit.

Rohirrim
07-21-2013, 11:44 AM
It's a systemic problem with pensions in general, but especially those doled out by professional vote-getters, who are always long gone once the bill for their vote-getting comes due.

It's a ridiculous expectation you have that a system can be sustainable while paying far more for retirees than workers. For pensions to really work, their real-world cost needs to be paid as the worker goes. Unfortunately, for the professional vote-getter, it's easier to promise that some future sucker will pay the tab for his years at the open bar. Death spiral is what comes of it. Detroit is exhibit A. More to come.

Here's a study you might enjoy:

A major player in the national debt debate, the “Fix the Debt” campaign, is arguing that cuts to Social Security and Medicare are necessary to avoid economic disaster. Meanwhile, the corporations leading this campaign are contributing to Americans’ retirement insecurity by funneling enormous sums into their CEO retirement accounts while underfunding their employee pension funds.

Key findings:

The 71 Fix the Debt CEOs who lead publicly held companies have amassed an average of $9 million in their company retirement funds. A dozen have more than $20 million in their accounts. If each of them converted their assets to an annuity when they turned 65, they would receive a monthly check for at least $110,000 for life.
The Fix the Debt CEO with the largest pension fund is Honeywell’s David Cote, a long-time advocate of Social Security cuts. His $78 million nest egg is enough to provide a $428,000 check every month after he turns 65.
Forty-one of the 71 companies offer employee pension funds. Of these, only two have sufficient assets in their funds to meet expected obligations. The rest have combined deficits of $103 billion, or about $2.5 billion on average. General Electric has the largest deficit in its worker pension fund, with $22 billion.

http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/pension-deficit-disorder

baja
07-21-2013, 12:09 PM
Anyone wonder why these 1 percenters (CEO's and such) are anxious to comply with the move to a police state. The fools think there assets will be protected from the hunger driven hoards. WRONG!

Rohirrim
07-21-2013, 12:13 PM
It means that not only will the one percenters make sure that their multi-million dollar pensions are untouchable, but they will steal everybody else's and then blame the bad economy on the greedy pensioners who want their measly payouts.

Like Warren Buffett said, it's a class war and the majority of us are getting our asses kicked.

houghtam
07-21-2013, 03:54 PM
I love this discussion from people who have never been 100 miles from Detroit, let alone actually lived there and who just so happen to know all the answers. It's a highly nuanced problem, and to say "the auto industry" or "pensions" or "black people" shows a level of ignorance that is truly breathtaking.

Get a clue, folks.

Requiem
07-21-2013, 03:59 PM
Houghtam, what circumstances led to the collapse in your opinion?

houghtam
07-21-2013, 04:07 PM
Houghtam, what circumstances led to the collapse in your opinion?

Bend over and I'll show ya!

But seriously, where do I start? I'm busy doing something right now so I don't have time to go into a ton of detail, but decades of corruption (before Kwame even) and something someone said on page one about the failure to adapt are a very good place to start.

BroncoBeavis
07-21-2013, 10:25 PM
Here's a study you might enjoy:

A major player in the national debt debate, the “Fix the Debt” campaign, is arguing that cuts to Social Security and Medicare are necessary to avoid economic disaster. Meanwhile, the corporations leading this campaign are contributing to Americans’ retirement insecurity by funneling enormous sums into their CEO retirement accounts while underfunding their employee pension funds.

Key findings:

The 71 Fix the Debt CEOs who lead publicly held companies have amassed an average of $9 million in their company retirement funds. A dozen have more than $20 million in their accounts. If each of them converted their assets to an annuity when they turned 65, they would receive a monthly check for at least $110,000 for life.
The Fix the Debt CEO with the largest pension fund is Honeywell’s David Cote, a long-time advocate of Social Security cuts. His $78 million nest egg is enough to provide a $428,000 check every month after he turns 65.
Forty-one of the 71 companies offer employee pension funds. Of these, only two have sufficient assets in their funds to meet expected obligations. The rest have combined deficits of $103 billion, or about $2.5 billion on average. General Electric has the largest deficit in its worker pension fund, with $22 billion.

http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/pension-deficit-disorder

Thanks for underscoring the problems with pensions again. They're only as good as the letterhead accompanying the enrollment form.

It'd be much better to have an employer socking that money away under an account with your name on it all along. Then there's not so much temptation for all the creative government and/or corporate accounting.

kappys
07-22-2013, 03:04 AM
Thanks for underscoring the problems with pensions again. They're only as good as the letterhead accompanying the enrollment form.

It'd be much better to have an employer socking that money away under an account with your name on it all along. Then there's not so much temptation for all the creative government and/or corporate accounting.

Exactly - I was given an option for a nice state pension with defined benefits but instead chose to go the IRA route where I know that the money belongs to me and is not at risk of being spent before payout

Rohirrim
07-23-2013, 08:01 AM
“Location matters, place matters,” says Nathaniel Hendren, a Harvard professor and one of the authors of the study. When it comes to a low-income child having a chance to climb up the economic ladder, “it matters where you grow up.”

That climb, the study shows, happens most commonly in the Northeast and the West, along with parts of the upper Midwest and much of Texas. New York, Boston, Seattle, Salt Lake City and Houston give a poor child a decent fighting chance. (In the map below, lighter colors indicate higher mobility; darker colors indicate lower mobility)

http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/130723-mobilitymap-original.photoblog600.jpg

http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/23/19620629-key-to-climbing-out-of-poverty-location-location-location?lite

BroncoBeavis
07-23-2013, 08:27 AM
“Location matters, place matters,” says Nathaniel Hendren, a Harvard professor and one of the authors of the study. When it comes to a low-income child having a chance to climb up the economic ladder, “it matters where you grow up.”

That climb, the study shows, happens most commonly in the Northeast and the West, along with parts of the upper Midwest and much of Texas. New York, Boston, Seattle, Salt Lake City and Houston give a poor child a decent fighting chance. (In the map below, lighter colors indicate higher mobility; darker colors indicate lower mobility)

http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/130723-mobilitymap-original.photoblog600.jpg

http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/23/19620629-key-to-climbing-out-of-poverty-location-location-location?lite

Location matters because opportunity begets growth and growth begets opportunity. If the most qualified find no opportunity at t home, they flee to the locations that have it. Then the socially and economically immobile get stranded, leaving islands of socioeconomic despair that nobody on the outside would ever dare set a course for.

Detroit, (which I shall hereforth call Longrun Keynesia :) ) died because for generations its political system favored entrenchment vs adaptation.

Garcia Bronco
07-23-2013, 10:36 AM
Roughly 50 percent of that city is illiterate. Any city would struggle with that number. At this point is almost irrelevant how they got there. Detroit needs help and we would be poor countrymen to not acknowledge it and do something about it as a country. It will take decades to to fix it, but at the root it's education.

BroncoBeavis
07-23-2013, 12:16 PM
Roughly 50 percent of that city is illiterate. Any city would struggle with that number. At this point is almost irrelevant how they got there. Detroit needs help and we would be poor countrymen to not acknowledge it and do something about it as a country. It will take decades to to fix it, but at the root it's education.

Education doesn't fix broken homes. When 3-quarters of kids are raised in poverty-ridden single-parent homes, even the best schools in the country would struggle to break through with even a marginal number of kids. And nobody's suggesting Detroit schools are anything resembling that.

At some point the blame has to rest on We the People's societal fabric itself. It's mindboggling to even think about how you start to fix that.

Rohirrim
07-23-2013, 01:55 PM
Let's put it this way, Detroit is surrounded by some of the wealthiest suburbs in America.

El Minion
07-23-2013, 02:35 PM
Don’t buy the right-wing myth about Detroit (http://www.salon.com/2013/07/23/dont_buy_the_right_wing_myth_about_detroit/)
Conservatives want you to think high taxes drove people away. The real truth is much worse for their radical agenda
By David Sirota

In the wake of Detroit’s bankruptcy, you may be wondering: How could anyone be surprised that a city so tied to manufacturing faces crippling problems in an era that has seen such an intense public policy assault on domestic American manufacturing? You may also be wondering: How could Michigan officials possibly talk about cutting the average $19,000-a-year pension benefit (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/us/cries-of-betrayal-as-detroit-plans-to-cut-pensions.html?pagewanted=all) for municipal workers while reaffirming their pledge of $283 million in taxpayer money (http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2013/07/22/5540/detroit-development-official-confirms-red-wings-subsidies-a-go-despite-city-bankruptcy/) to a professional hockey stadium?

These are fair questions — and the answers to them can be found in the political mythology that distorts America’s economic policymaking.

As mythology goes, the specific story being crafted about Detroit’s bankruptcy is truly biblical — more specifically, just like the fact-free mythology around the Greek financial collapse (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/opinion/krugman-detroit-the-new-greece.html?ref=opinion), it is copied right from the chapter in the conservative movement’s bible about how to distort crises for maximum political effect.

In the conservative telling of this particular parable, Detroit faces a fiscal emergency because high taxes supposedly drove a mass exodus from the city, and the supposedly unbridled greed of unions forced city leaders to make fiscally irresponsible pension promises to municipal employees. Written out of the tale is any serious analysis of macroeconomic shifts, international economic policy failures, the geography of recent recessions and unsustainable corporate welfare spending.

This is classic right-wing dogma — the kind that employs selective storytelling to use a tragic event as a means to radical ends. In this case, the ends are — big shocker! — three of the conservative movement’s larger long-term economic priorities: 1) preservation of job-killing trade policies 2) immunity for corporations and 3) justification for budget policies that continue to profligately subsidize the rich.

Pretending Detroit and the NAFTA era are unrelated

The bait-and-switch on the first two objectives is fairly easy to see.
<hr><hr>Detroit isn’t just any old city — it happens to be the biggest population center in the state hit the hardest by the right’s corporate-written trade agenda. Indeed, according to the Economic Policy Institute, the state lost more jobs than any other (http://epi.3cdn.net/fdade52b876e04793b_7fm6ivz2y.pdf) from NAFTA (43,600, or 1 percent of its total job base) and lost another 79,500 jobs (http://www.epi.org/publication/bp219/) thanks to the China PNTR deal. And that’s just two of many such trade pacts. Add to this the city’s disproportionate reliance (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/07/19/gm-ceo-akerson-bankruptcy-detroit-competition/2568787/) on American auto companies which made a series of horrific business decisions, and Detroit is a microcosmic cautionary tale about what happens when large corporations are allowed to write macro economic policy and dictate the economic future of an entire city.

If told, this cautionary tale would likely spark a discussion about revising current trade deals, regulations, public investment and industrial policy in general. That is, it would spark precisely the discussion that the conservative movement and the corporations that fund politicians don’t want America to have. So the right works to make sure that discussion is short circuited by a narrative that focuses the Detroit story primarily on taxes and public pensions.

That is, of course, by design. The less Detroit prompts serious questions about trade policies and the auto industry, the less Detroit can be used as a rationale for changing those conservative, corporate-enriching policies and that industry. Likewise, the more taxes and retirement benefits can be blamed for Detroit’s downfall, the more Detroit’s tragedy can be used as a clarion call by the right to slash both.

Focusing on pensions to protect corporate welfare and tax cuts

That brings us to how this all plays into the right’s push to enact ever more regressive tax cuts, protect endless corporate welfare and legislate new reductions in workers’ guaranteed pensions.

These latter objectives may seem unrelated, but they all complement each other when presented in the most politically opportunistic way. It’s a straightforward conservative formula: the right blames state and municipal budget problems exclusively on public employees’ retirement benefits, often underfunding those public pensions for years. The money raided from those pension funds is then used to enact expensive tax cuts and corporate welfare programs. After years of robbing those pension funds to pay for such giveaways, a crisis inevitably hits, and workers’ pension benefits are blamed — and then slashed. Meanwhile, the massive tax cuts and corporate subsidies are preserved, because we are led to believe they had nothing to do with the crisis. Ultimately, the extra monies taken from retirees are then often plowed into even more tax cuts and more corporate subsidies.

We’ve seen this trick in states all over America lately. In Rhode Island, for instance, the state underfunded its public pensions for years, while giving away $356 million in a year in corporate subsidies (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/12/01/us/government-incentives.html#RI) (including an epically embarrassing $75 million to Curt Schilling (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/business/curt-schilling-rhode-island-and-the-fall-of-38-studios.html?pagewanted=all)). It then converted the pension system into a Wall Street boondoggle (http://www.labornotes.org/2012/04/rhode-island-pension-cuts-set-chilling-precedents)), all while preserving the subsidies.

Similarly, in Kentucky, the state raided its public pension funds to finance $1.4 billion a year in tax subsidies (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/12/01/us/government-incentives.html#KY), and then when the crisis hit, lawmakers there slashed pension benefits (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/02/12/1579321/kentuckys-pension-reform-cuts-benefits-but-makes-funding-problems-worse/) — not the corporate subsidies.

The list of states and cities following this path goes on — but you get the point. In the conservative narrative about budgets in general, the focus is on the aggregate annual $333 million (http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/unfunded-pension-liabilities-are-1-trillion-not-38-trillion-never-take-anything-in-a-washington-post-editorial-at-face-value) worth of state and local pension shortfalls — and left out of the story is the fact that, according to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us/how-local-taxpayers-bankroll-corporations.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0), “states, counties and cities are giving up more than $80 billion each year to companies” in the form of tax loopholes and subsidies.”

The mythology around Detroit, then, is just another version of this propaganda.

So, for instance, from the administration of right-wing Gov. Rick Snyder, we are hearing a lot of carping about the $3.5 billion in pension obligations (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/us/cries-of-betrayal-as-detroit-plans-to-cut-pensions.html?pagewanted=all) that are part of the city’s overall $18 billion in debt. The focus leads casual onlookers to believe that — even though they on average get a pension of just $19,000 a year (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/us/cries-of-betrayal-as-detroit-plans-to-cut-pensions.html?pagewanted=all) — municipal workers’ supposed greed single-handedly bankrupted the city. What we aren’t hearing about, though, is the city and state’s long history of underfunding its pensions, and using the raided money to spend billions of dollars on corporate welfare.

For a good sense of some of the most expensive, absurd and utterly wasteful boondoggles in the Detroit area over the last few decades, read this piece from Crain’s Detroit (http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20130609/NEWS/306099965/many-dollars-little-sense-projects-that-seemed-like-good-ideas-at#) or see this 2011 article entitled “Detroit’s Corporate Welfare Binge” (http://billjohnsondetroit.com/blog_detail.php?id=371) by Detroit News columnist Bill Johnson. Alternately, recall this is in the heart of a region whose governments infamously spent $55 million (http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/11/17/detroit-stadium-or-new-york-studio-the-silverdome-sells-for-58/) of taxpayer money in 1975 (or a whopping $180 million in inflation-adjusted dollars) on one professional football stadium, then spent another $300 million (http://www.nationaljournal.com/people-s-game-the-taxpayers-stake-in-nfl-labor-negotiations-20110311) on yet another football stadium, then sold off the original stadium for just $583,000 (http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2009/1118/new-tale-of-detroits-woe-silverdome-sold-for-583000). Or, just note that Detroit is the largest city in a state that, according to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/12/01/us/government-incentives.html#MI), spends more per capita on corporate subsidies — $672 or $6.6 billion a year — than most other states.

By focusing the blame for Detroit’s bankruptcy solely on workers’ pensions, rather than having a more comprehensive discussion that includes both pension benefits and corporate giveaways, the right can engineer the political environment for the truly immoral reality mentioned at the beginning of this article — the one highlighted this week by the Associated Press (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/detroit-hockey-arena_n_3625474.html) story headlined “Arena Likely Still On Track, Business As Usual For Sports Teams Despite Bankruptcy Filing.” Yes, that’s correct: at the same time government officials are talking about slashing the meager $19,000-a-year pensions of workers who don’t get Social Security, those officials are promising that they will still go forward with a plan to spend a whopping $283 million of taxpayer money on a new stadium for the Red Wings.

Notably, a political environment that encourages these kind of immoral decisions is beneficial not merely to the corporate interests who directly benefit from such giveaways, but also to the Wall Street investors who still own the outstanding bonds (http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/119_478/-1020513-1.html) that financed some of the subsidies. Taken together, then, a skewed discussion about budget shortfalls that excludes scrutiny of these subsidies and focuses only on worker pensions predictably ends up prioritizing the financial interests of corporate welfare recipients and Wall Street bondholders over municipal retirees.

It’s the same dynamic on taxes. From the right, Detroit is being cited in the discussion about budget shortfalls as proof of the need for austerity. Yet, we aren’t hearing much about why in the face of such shortfalls Snyder just devoted $1.7 billion to a new corporate tax cut (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/05/13/173952/michigan-tax-cuts/?mobile=nc) that will likely exacerbate the state’s deficit (http://www.freep.com/article/20121214/NEWS15/312140115/Tax-cuts-fiscal-cliff-could-push-Michigan-back-into-deficit-territory), nor are we hearing much about why state law compelled Detroit to forfeit other desperately needed tax revenues (http://www.freep.com/article/20120125/NEWS06/201250387/Cash-strapped%20Detroit%20to%20lose%20$8.5M%20under%20s tate%20law%20requiring%20cut%20in%20income%20tax%2 0rate). Again, the goal here is to make sure that the conversation is one that only is about cutting retirement benefits — not one that adds the prospect of progressive tax reform to the debate.

For his part, Kevyn Orr — the unelected “emergency manager” imposed on Detroit by Snyder — insists he will be evenhanded in distributing the pain of the city’s bankruptcy. But with Wall Street bondholders intensifying (http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/07/18/bondholders-public-pensioners-square-off-in-detroit/) their push to make sure all the pain is felt by public employees, and with the right’s blame-the-workers narrative preventing any real discussion of corporate subsidies and tax policies, it’s a good bet the $19,000-a-year pensioners are going to bear a disproportionate share of the sacrifice. After all, out of all of this situation’s players — corporations that want public subsidies, bondholders, rich folk who want more tax cuts, right-wing Synder administration officials and municipal workers — the retirees earning benefits just above the poverty line have the least amount of political power.

So, as always, they probably won’t be at the negotiating table. Instead, they’ll almost certainly be where they usually are: on the menu, exactly where the conservative movement wants them.

BroncoBeavis
07-23-2013, 02:54 PM
Ah, you can always count on Sirota to be maybe the most reliable socialist mouthpiece out there.

But just read this part that you bolded...

It’s a straightforward conservative formula: the right blames state and municipal budget problems exclusively on public employees’ retirement benefits, often underfunding those public pensions for years.

How on God's green earth can anyone blame Nasty Republicanses for underfunding Longrun Keynesia's public pensions? It's been more than half a century since Republicans ran anything in that city.

The dude's utterly incapable of looking in any mirrors on behalf of his party. We can argue all day about the global economics (and inflexibility) that drove Detroit's fall. But you can't ever take Detroit's (Democratic) leadership off the hook for fundamentally screwing its pensioners. There's literally nobody else in the room Sirota and the Blamers can credibly finger on that one.

Rigs11
07-23-2013, 03:10 PM
Ah, you can always count on Sirota to be maybe the most reliable socialist mouthpiece out there.

But just read this part that you bolded...



How on God's green earth can anyone blame Nasty Republicanses for underfunding Longrun Keynesia's public pensions? It's been more than half a century since Republicans ran anything in that city.

The dude's utterly incapable of looking in any mirrors on behalf of his party. We can argue all day about the global economics (and inflexibility) that drove Detroit's fall. But you can't ever take Detroit's (Democratic) leadership off the hook for fundamentally screwing its pensioners. There's literally nobody else in the room Sirota and the Blamers can credibly finger on that one.

Isn't the governor a repub?

broncocalijohn
07-23-2013, 03:12 PM
Nice piece. When a car has $4k in it just to cover pensions, there is going to be trouble in the free open market when purchasing cars.

Most are saying they collapsed on pensions and shotty elected officials. Taxes maybe why some businesses left but I think the article wants to hide behind that and not the other major issues a liberal city has been doing for years. Detroit might be the biggest but it probably won't be the last.

broncocalijohn
07-23-2013, 03:13 PM
Isn't the governor a repub?

Is the governor responsible for every single cities finances? That is sure drawing on straws for Detroit's issues.

BroncoBeavis
07-23-2013, 03:18 PM
Isn't the governor a repub?

Heh. Nice game.

Ponzi it up. When SHTF, find nearest Republican, even if he only showed up a couple days ago. Blame him. LOL

Unfortunately the state Governors (of either party) had little to do with how The City of Longrun Keynesia funded (and/or pilfered) its pension fund.

broncocalijohn
07-23-2013, 03:23 PM
btw, was the corporate welfare spent at this high rate compared to other states including the bailout of the automobile industry by Obama?

BroncoBeavis
07-23-2013, 03:29 PM
btw, was the corporate welfare spent at this high rate compared to other states including the bailout of the automobile industry by Obama?

One man's corporate welfare is another's essential economics.

Rohirrim
07-23-2013, 03:41 PM
Many Americans are suffering badly in this economy. Worse than in generations. Adding to their suffering is a Right Wing political machine that attacks them and blames them for something they had no control over. They are the victims. The perpetrators are doing better than ever. And getting government bailouts and subsidies as well.

BroncoBeavis
07-23-2013, 03:49 PM
Many Americans are suffering badly in this economy. Worse than in generations. Adding to their suffering is a Right Wing political machine that attacks them and blames them for something they had no control over. They are the victims. The perpetrators are doing better than ever. And getting government bailouts and subsidies as well.

I'm not blaming the victims. I'm blaming the pension system. Those hugely important chunks of nest egg are too important to trust to America's sleaziest buy-now-pay-later politicians and CEOs.

Rigs11
07-23-2013, 04:02 PM
Heh. Nice game.

Ponzi it up. When SHTF, find nearest Republican, even if he only showed up a couple days ago. Blame him. LOL

Unfortunately the state Governors (of either party) had little to do with how The City of Longrun Keynesia funded (and/or pilfered) its pension fund.

It was a legitimate question, don't get your panties in a bunch. Actually if you got your head out of your ass, you might realize that the governor and the mayor were working on avoiding bankruptcy back in 2012, drama queen.

BroncoBeavis
07-23-2013, 04:22 PM
It was a legitimate question, don't get your panties in a bunch. Actually if you got your head out of your ass, you might realize that the governor and the mayor were working on avoiding bankruptcy back in 2012, drama queen.

I realize that. But read your line next to the statement you were responding to. Looks mostly like a shot at blaming the messenger. I'm not sure how else to take it.

errand
07-23-2013, 04:52 PM
Isn't the governor a repub?

the governor doesn't run the city of Detroit....he runs the state of Michigan

Rohirrim
07-23-2013, 06:11 PM
This thing is going to turn into a major CF.
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/its-feds-vs-state-when-detroit-heads-court-bankruptcy-hearing-6C10721476

How many other cities out there would love to dump their pensions? If the Feds allow Detroit to get away with this, look out.

broncocalijohn
07-24-2013, 11:15 AM
This thing is going to turn into a major CF.
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/its-feds-vs-state-when-detroit-heads-court-bankruptcy-hearing-6C10721476

How many other cities out there would love to dump their pensions? If the Feds allow Detroit to get away with this, look out.

No doubt. It got worse after 9/11 when it was not cool to vote against (or speak out) against the Public Unions from Fire Fighters and Police asking for more to their benefit packages. When you add up the bogus overtime for the Public Safety sector, these guys are making $130,000 and more.

Also, letting workers cash in their vacation pay at the salary they received at the end of their career instead of the amount they were making at the time the vacation time they were banked is another huge problem. How this is allowed is beyond me.

Pony Boy
07-24-2013, 11:42 AM
Who bails out the millions of small business owners that have invested their pension plans that fail? Why should only city, state or federal workers be bailed out by the tax payers.

Rigs11
07-24-2013, 12:35 PM
i'm confused. Remember when the auto companies were in trouble, the righties said that they should go through the bankruptcy preocess. Now detroit is doing that and the righties are still complaining?

Rigs11
07-24-2013, 12:35 PM
Who bails out the millions of small business owners that have invested their pension plans that fail? Why should only city, state or federal workers be bailed out by the tax payers.

socialist! Hilarious!

Pony Boy
07-24-2013, 12:48 PM
socialist! Hilarious!

I think you missed the point genius, the tax payers should not bailout anyone or if they do it should be available to all citizens not just city, state or federal workers.

The USPS can't keep their head above water (14 billion in debt) and most of that is the pension payout they must meet. I will be willing to bet that somewhere down the line the taxpayers will get stuck with the bill.
What happens to Joe Blow that owns the local tire shop in town if his 401K disappears? Do you think the Feds will bail him out?

broncocalijohn
07-24-2013, 01:09 PM
i'm confused. Remember when the auto companies were in trouble, the righties said that they should go through the bankruptcy preocess. Now detroit is doing that and the righties are still complaining?

Complaining? About what? Everyone should be complaining about how it happened to begin with. BK was to start fresh and get rid of all those idiotic bloated pension plans and size them to a sufficient plan.

Grasping at straws there Rigs...big time.

Rohirrim
07-24-2013, 01:41 PM
I think you missed the point genius, the tax payers should not bailout anyone or if they do it should be available to all citizens not just city, state or federal workers.

The USPS can't keep their head above water (14 billion in debt) and most of that is the pension payout they must meet. I will be willing to bet that somewhere down the line the taxpayers will get stuck with the bill.
What happens to Joe Blow that owns the local tire shop in town if his 401K disappears? Do you think the Feds will bail him out?

AIG, GM, Bank of America, Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase, Wells Fargo, Chrysler, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, etc etc etc (the list is just too long) do not approve of this post.

baja
07-24-2013, 02:17 PM
PLAN NOW IS TO BULLDOZE 1/3 OF DETROIT

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-mayor-of-detroits-radical-plan-to-bulldoze-one-quarter-of-the-city

Pony Boy
07-24-2013, 02:24 PM
Bankrupt Detroit council supports calls for federal investigation of possible civil rights charges against George Zimmerman

The Detroit City Council on Tuesday unanimously passed a resolution calling for a federal investigation to see whether civil rights charges are warranted against George Zimmerman, who was acquitted July 13 of second-degree murder and manslaughter charges in the killing of Florida teen Trayvon Martin.

The resolution, sponsored by Councilwoman JoAnn Watson, sparked a discussion over the need for city leaders and others to focus more on violence in Detroit........Hilarious!

http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/

baja
07-24-2013, 03:02 PM
Bankrupt Detroit council supports calls for federal investigation of possible civil rights charges against George Zimmerman

The Detroit City Council on Tuesday unanimously passed a resolution calling for a federal investigation to see whether civil rights charges are warranted against George Zimmerman, who was acquitted July 13 of second-degree murder and manslaughter charges in the killing of Florida teen Trayvon Martin.

The resolution, sponsored by Councilwoman JoAnn Watson, sparked a discussion over the need for city leaders and others to focus more on violence in Detroit........Hilarious!

http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/


Maybe hey should bulldoze the whole damn city not just 1/3.

Arkie
07-24-2013, 04:06 PM
Who bails out the millions of small business owners that have invested their pension plans that fail? Why should only city, state or federal workers be bailed out by the tax payers.

And it would affect the entire tax base. There are 20,000 city counsels across the country making financial decisions that benefit only their community. Any one of them could affect us all, especially if they know the worst case scenario is being bailed out.

txtebow
07-24-2013, 05:17 PM
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/07/19/should-hamtramck-erect-a-12-foot-wall-to-keep-out-detroiters/

"Richard Fabiszak has proposed that Hamtramck build a 12 or 14-foot wall around the city, keeping out Detroiters, and requiring state-issued identification to get in."

houghtam
07-24-2013, 05:41 PM
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/07/19/should-hamtramck-erect-a-12-foot-wall-to-keep-out-detroiters/

"Richard Fabiszak has proposed that Hamtramck build a 12 or 14-foot wall around the city, keeping out Detroiters, and requiring state-issued identification to get in."

I already addressed this idiocy in a previous post you ignored. Hamtramck has one of the most diverse populations in the Midwest. Stop characterizing this as a move against "diversity".

Additionally this guy is only a candidate for Hamtramck city council. He's also running on the platform of instant death penalty for criminals. LOL Let's see if views like this win him the election in a city with 41% of its population born outside the US. Should be a good preview of what the GOP has in store for it in the next election.

Get your divisive, racist bull**** out of here, you two-bit cross burning hillrod.

Rigs11
07-24-2013, 08:01 PM
Complaining? About what? Everyone should be complaining about how it happened to begin with. BK was to start fresh and get rid of all those idiotic bloated pension plans and size them to a sufficient plan.

Grasping at straws there Rigs...big time.

Nope, as usual the righties are using this to place blame. No solutions, finger pointing.

chadta
07-25-2013, 03:41 AM
Complaining? About what? Everyone should be complaining about how it happened to begin with. BK was to start fresh and get rid of all those idiotic bloated pension plans and size them to a sufficient plan.

Grasping at straws there Rigs...big time.

Are things down there the way they are up here ? Elected officials only need to serve for 5 years to get a pension up here. Now I hate hate hate public sector unions as much as the next guy, they just seem to conspire with the government to rip off the taxpayer, but I have a real problem with a group of people who only have to get elected twice getting to keep a pension while people who may have put in 30 or 40 years have to lose it.

Keeping in mind that in most cases, these pensions were differed wages, these contracts were negotiated in, I would put money on the fact you will never see another union take any sort of contract that doesn't pay as all the money now. I know I wouldn't take any of this " ill pay you 2 dollars tomorrow for a dollars worth of work today" crap.

txtebow
07-25-2013, 06:22 AM
I already addressed this idiocy in a previous post you ignored. Hamtramck has one of the most diverse populations in the Midwest. Stop characterizing this as a move against "diversity".

Additionally this guy is only a candidate for Hamtramck city council. He's also running on the platform of instant death penalty for criminals. LOL Let's see if views like this win him the election in a city with 41% of its population born outside the US. Should be a good preview of what the GOP has in store for it in the next election.

Get your divisive, racist bull**** out of here, you two-bit cross burning hillrod.

Touch a nerve? :rofl:

houghtam
07-25-2013, 06:36 AM
Touch a nerve? :rofl:

Yes. When idiots keep repeating the same tripe over and over and no one calls them on it, it tends to have that effect on me. :yayaya:

El Minion
08-28-2013, 05:18 PM
btw, was the corporate welfare spent at this high rate compared to other states including the bailout of the automobile industry by Obama?

Many highly paid CEOs end up as failures, report says (http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-many-highpaid-ceos-turn-out-to-be-failures-report-says-20130828,0,7200976.story)
By Walter Hamilton
August 28, 2013, 12:47 p.m.

Nearly 40% of the nation’s best-paid CEOs over the past two decades were either fired, forced to take government bailouts or in charge of companies that paid huge amounts in fraud-related claims.

That’s the conclusion of a report Wednesday that attempts to gauge the link between weak corporate performance and skyrocketing executive pay.

The study (http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/executive-excess-2013), “Executive Excess 2013: Bailed Out, Booted, Busted,” was issued by the liberal Institute for Policy Studies in Washington. It's the latest in a years-long line of reports by the IPS and other groups charting alleged abuses in executive pay.

Among other factoids, it cites an AFL-CIO study showing that the pay gap between corporate chieftains and regular workers ballooned to 354-to-1 last year from 195-to-1 in 1993.

“Our analysis reveals widespread poor performance within America’s elite CEO circles,” the report says. “Chief executives performing poorly — and blatantly so — have consistently populated the ranks of our nation’s top-paid CEOs over the last two decades.”

According to the study, 22% of the highest-paid CEOs ran companies that either had to take government bailouts to survive during the 2008 global financial crisis or that collapsed altogether.

For example, Richard Fuld, the former head of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., was among the 25 highest-paid chieftains for eight years in a row — until his company disintegrated.

An additional 8% of CEOs headed companies that paid whopping fraud-related fines or legal settlements. In some cases, the executives themselves had to pay penalties for their own inappropriate behavior, such as the backdating of stock options to goose their compensation, according to the study.

And another 8% of CEOs suffered the ultimate ignominy — getting the ax for poor performance, according to the report. Of course, the disgraced executives didn’t give back any of their enormous compensation. In fact, the average deposed CEO walked away with a $48-million golden parachute.