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cutthemdown
06-22-2013, 11:02 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/us/zimmerman-judge-bars-testimony-on-911-call.html?_r=0


While jurors in Mr. Zimmerman’s second-degree-murder trial, which will open here Monday, may get to hear the recording in court, they will not hear the opinions of two audio experts for the prosecution about who the screamer is, or is not. One concluded that the voice was not Mr. Zimmerman’s; the other said it was very likely Mr. Martin’s.

In an order released on Saturday, the judge in the case, Debra S. Nelson, excluded their testimony. She said the science supporting the experts’ analyses “is not as widely accepted at this time” as the more established methods relied on by defense witnesses who said it was impossible to conclude whose voice it was.



I wonder how big this for th prosecution.

nyuk nyuk
06-22-2013, 06:49 PM
I'm shocked the prosecution didn't demand at least 1 black juror. Now, Zimmerman actually has a chance to be acquitted.

nyuk nyuk
06-22-2013, 06:51 PM
In an order released on Saturday, the judge in the case, Debra S. Nelson, excluded their testimony. She said the science supporting the experts’ analyses “is not as widely accepted at this time” as the more established methods relied on by defense witnesses who said it was impossible to conclude whose voice it was.



I wonder how big this for th prosecution.

Suffice it to say, the one being injured was the one crying for help. Martin had no injuries aside from the gunshot wound, and the screams preceded the gunshot. Zimmerman had a broken nose and multiple lacerations to the back of his head.

There's your answer.

That was hard, wasn't it?

peacepipe
06-22-2013, 07:17 PM
I'm shocked the prosecution didn't demand at least 1 black juror. Now, Zimmerman actually has a chance to be acquitted.

Maybe one was picked but the defense turned her/him away.

nyuk nyuk
06-22-2013, 07:35 PM
Maybe one was picked but the defense turned her/him away.

The defense isn't in control of jury selection. They work together on it. If he's acquitted, the race card will be pulled and riots will ensue.

peacepipe
06-22-2013, 07:52 PM
The defense isn't in control of jury selection. They work together on it. If he's acquitted, the race card will be pulled and riots will ensue.

Damn you are an idiot.

Peremptory challenge usually refers to a right in jury selection for the defense and prosecution to reject a certain number of potential jurors who appear to have an unfavorable bias without having to give any reason. Other potential jurors may be challenged for cause: i.e. by giving a reason why they might be unable to reach a fair verdict, but the challenge will be considered by the presiding judge and may be denied.

The idea behind peremptory challenges is that if both parties have contributed in the configuration of the jury, they will find its verdict more acceptable. The existence of peremptory challenges is argued to be an important safeguard in the judicial process, allowing both the defendant and the prosecution to get rid of potentially biased jurors. Their use allows attorneys to use their training and experience to dismiss jurors who might say the correct thing, but might otherwise harbor prejudices that could infringe the rights of the defendant to a fair trial.

The defense has the same amt of control over jury selection as the prosecutor.
No need to thank me for the education on jury selection.

houghtam
06-22-2013, 08:02 PM
Damn you are an idiot.


The defense has the same amt of control over jury selection as the prosecutor.
No need to thank me for the education on jury selection.

You forgot this:

:yayaya:

cutthemdown
06-22-2013, 08:46 PM
Um Peace the person said THEY WORK TOGETHER ON IT, which is true. Both sides get a certain number of exclusions or challenges. No way the defense is the only reason no blacks on the jury. Maybe it was just too tough to find blacks in the area without an opinion on the trial that showed an obvious bias. The media screws up our justice system in cases like this.

peacepipe
06-22-2013, 09:32 PM
Um Peace the person said THEY WORK TOGETHER ON IT, which is true. Both sides get a certain number of exclusions or challenges. No way the defense is the only reason no blacks on the jury. Maybe it was just too tough to find blacks in the area without an opinion on the trial that showed an obvious bias. The media screws up our justice system in cases like this.

I never said the defense was the only reason there are no blacks in the jury. Duym Duym stated the defense has no control over jury selection when in fact they do.

nyuk nyuk
06-22-2013, 10:08 PM
You forgot this:

:yayaya:

Isn't there some trampled popcorn somewhere you should be sweeping up?

They could have used you at Century Aurora theater 8 yesterday. 200 people at Monsters University made quite a mess.

nyuk nyuk
06-22-2013, 10:09 PM
I never said the defense was the only reason there are no blacks in the jury. Duym Duym stated the defense has no control over jury selection when in fact they do.

They share control, isn't this obvious and clear? They don't dictate anything to anyone.

nyuk nyuk
06-22-2013, 10:10 PM
Um Peace the person said THEY WORK TOGETHER ON IT, which is true. Both sides get a certain number of exclusions or challenges. No way the defense is the only reason no blacks on the jury. Maybe it was just too tough to find blacks in the area without an opinion on the trial that showed an obvious bias. The media screws up our justice system in cases like this.

They don't get it.

houghtam
06-22-2013, 11:33 PM
:yayaya:

cutthemdown
06-23-2013, 03:48 AM
Obviously its not a true statement the defense has no part of the voir dire process. But you can't just exclude every black person. Problem most likely was judge, prosecution, and defense saw the black jurors as not being able to overcome their bias so they were excluded.

nyuk nyuk
06-23-2013, 11:46 AM
Obviously its not a true statement the defense has no part of the voir dire process. But you can't just exclude every black person. Problem most likely was judge, prosecution, and defense saw the black jurors as not being able to overcome their bias so they were excluded.

It's entirely possible, but the point is that if the case doesn't come out how a certain political sector of society wants it to, you're going to see a **** load of race card pulling.

Bacchus
06-23-2013, 12:47 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/us/zimmerman-judge-bars-testimony-on-911-call.html?_r=0


While jurors in Mr. Zimmerman’s second-degree-murder trial, which will open here Monday, may get to hear the recording in court, they will not hear the opinions of two audio experts for the prosecution about who the screamer is, or is not. One concluded that the voice was not Mr. Zimmerman’s; the other said it was very likely Mr. Martin’s.

In an order released on Saturday, the judge in the case, Debra S. Nelson, excluded their testimony. She said the science supporting the experts’ analyses “is not as widely accepted at this time” as the more established methods relied on by defense witnesses who said it was impossible to conclude whose voice it was.



I wonder how big this for th prosecution.

It is probably a big win for the prosecution. Somebody on the tape was yelling repeatedly for help. I think they would have had a hard time convincing a jury it was Zimmerman.

nyuk nyuk
06-23-2013, 12:48 PM
It is probably a big win for the prosecution. Somebody on the tape was yelling repeatedly for help. I think they would have had a hard time convincing a jury it was Zimmerman.

How? He's the one with the beating injuries.

Bacchus
06-23-2013, 12:52 PM
How? He's the one with the beating injuries.

Because he had the gun and he killed the kid. I am not saying he WASN'T the one yelling I am saying they would have a hard time proving he was the guy yelling.

All along I said that I wanted Zimmerman arrested and to stand trial. If a jury finds him innocent I have no problem at all with that.

I think there is a 90% chance he walks. Florida's stand your ground law and the make-up of the jury will almost assuredly find him innocent, and I am fine with that. It's Florida their laws.

nyuk nyuk
06-23-2013, 01:32 PM
Because he had the gun and he killed the kid. I am not saying he WASN'T the one yelling I am saying they would have a hard time proving he was the guy yelling.

All along I said that I wanted Zimmerman arrested and to stand trial. If a jury finds him innocent I have no problem at all with that.

I think there is a 90% chance he walks. Florida's stand your ground law and the make-up of the jury will almost assuredly find him innocent, and I am fine with that. It's Florida their laws.

It seems very obvious Zimmerman was the one calling for help. If you were beating someone who pulled out a gun, you wouldn't back off when you saw the gun and would instead yell "Help help!" and keep straddling the guy until you take a slug into the upper lobe of a lung? I think you'd immediately let go of the guy, get the hell off him, and bail the hell out of there. Martin was shot at close range straight into the chest. He wasn't shot at an angle or at a distance as if he was trying to move away.

Yes. It was Zimmerman.

If the trial is just - he does walk. He shouldn't be on trial to begin with. The state caved into media-driven mobs threatening riots.

peacepipe
06-25-2013, 08:50 PM
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/03/1213239/-Officer-s-Cellphone-Pics-Show-Zimmerman-May--Have-Been-Punched-the-Night-he-Killed-Trayvon

t is important to underscore and emphasize that the EMS wrote that, regarding Zimmerman's nose the "mucous membrane is normal" because it highlights the fact that there was no blood and no swelling of the mucous membrane that line the sinus cavities which is one more piece of evidence that shows Zimmerman was not punched in the nose hard enough to fall "to the ground when he punched [Zimmerman] the first time" and certainly dispels Zimmerman "claim" that he was punched a subsequent 25 to 30 times in the nose while being pinned to the ground on his back.

Because Zimmerman lied to his family physician assistant, when he falsely told her that he was "told" by EMS he had a broken nose, the Physician Assistant wrote "We discussed it was likely broken." And in the insurance code she wrote he had a "closed fracture" but no xrays were done to confirm that. The Physician Assistant also wrote Zimmerman "refuses to be seen an ENT (Ear Nose and Throat doctor)" and they discussed the "risks" of him not being seen by an ENT. Gosh, after all that alleged pummeling to his nose and head, why would Zimmerman refuse to go see an ENT? Who knows.

Note also, on page 3 of Zimmerman's Family Physician Report, the Physician Assistant states that his nostrils were not bleeding and did not note any dried blood in the nostrils (nares) and wrote "does not appear to have septal deviation" which, when put all together along with the EMS report, it tells me Zimmerman was not punched in the nose 25 to 30 times 16 hours earlier.

To date, George Zimmerman has not released any xrays showing he had a broken nose nor has any licensed medical doctor ever diagnosed Zimmerman with a broken nose. And Zimmerman has never released a medical report from an Ear Nose and Throat Doctor.

peacepipe
06-25-2013, 08:52 PM
It seems very obvious Zimmerman was the one calling for help. If you were beating someone who pulled out a gun, you wouldn't back off when you saw the gun and would instead yell "Help help!" and keep straddling the guy until you take a slug into the upper lobe of a lung? I think you'd immediately let go of the guy, get the hell off him, and bail the hell out of there. Martin was shot at close range straight into the chest. He wasn't shot at an angle or at a distance as if he was trying to move away.

Yes. It was Zimmerman.

If the trial is just - he does walk. He shouldn't be on trial to begin with. The state caved into media-driven mobs threatening riots.

The trial will be just, even if found guilty.

Fedaykin
06-26-2013, 05:47 AM
Stand You Own Ground -- it's your right and you can't be blamed for it, unless you don't have a firearm. Then you deserve what you get when you defend yourself from someone following you with, at best, unknown intent.

Pony Boy
06-26-2013, 08:17 AM
I'm pretty tired of this already, any news channel you turn on has the same quotes from the Zimmerman trial so I keep my radio on the NFL network but now all they talk about is Hernandez......... LOL

Rohirrim
06-26-2013, 08:37 AM
Because he had the gun and he killed the kid. I am not saying he WASN'T the one yelling I am saying they would have a hard time proving he was the guy yelling.

All along I said that I wanted Zimmerman arrested and to stand trial. If a jury finds him innocent I have no problem at all with that.

I think there is a 90% chance he walks. Florida's stand your ground law and the make-up of the jury will almost assuredly find him innocent, and I am fine with that. It's Florida their laws.

Which is why, if I'm his lawyer and he was the one screaming for help, I have him take the stand and tell that to the jury. First hand, undisputed testimony carries a lot of weight.

Fedaykin
06-26-2013, 08:48 AM
Armed man initiates a confrontation with and kills another person.

Trial? Pfht? Who needs a trial? The guy had some boo-boos!

Pony Boy
06-26-2013, 08:52 AM
The trial will be just, even if found guilty.

OJ agrees "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit", he was a totally innocent man that received a fair trial. Casey Anthony also agrees, the jury system is always correct.

BroncoInferno
06-26-2013, 08:54 AM
Armed man initiates a confrontation with and kills another person.

Exactly, which is why nyuk nyuk is a lunatic. Zimmerman had NO authority to pursue Martin. If someone whom you never met aggressively initiates unwanted contact with you, you kick their ass (i.e. defend yourself), then they shoot you, that is not "self-defense" on their part. By that logic, any mugger who gets his ass kicked and shoots someone could plead self-defense. That only works in the warped, depraved mind of bigots like nyuk nyuk.

houghtam
06-26-2013, 08:58 AM
Armed man initiates a confrontation with and kills another person.

Trial? Pfht? Who needs a trial? The guy had some boo-boos!

Exactly. 99% of the people voicing their opinions, including Martin's parents, only wanted an investigation, which there wasn't at first. The trial is a result of the prosecution deciding there was enough evidence to go forward.

Exactly what part of the judicial process was compromised here?

Rohirrim
06-26-2013, 09:01 AM
I'm on the side of "I have no idea what happened." I hope the trial brings out the facts, but that's not a foregone conclusion in any case as high profile as this.

cutthemdown
06-27-2013, 03:18 PM
Trayvons GF testifying last couple days. Man she is fugly. Precious takes the stand! He should be glad he won't have to hit that anymore.

peacepipe
06-27-2013, 03:33 PM
OJ agrees "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit", he was a totally innocent man that received a fair trial. Casey Anthony also agrees, the jury system is always correct.

Sometimes the prosecution doesn't make it's case. What a jury sees and what the public sees via the media are two different things.

peacepipe
06-27-2013, 04:07 PM
So far the prosecution is making a strong case. From a really bad knock-knock joke to open the trial to being unable to break the states witnesses,the defense isn't doing Zimmerman any favors so far.

ant1999e
06-27-2013, 04:43 PM
Creepy ass cracker!

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 11:22 AM
So far the prosecution is making a strong case. From a really bad knock-knock joke to open the trial to being unable to break the states witnesses,the defense isn't doing Zimmerman any favors so far.

They really aren't. You might be the only person I've seen say that. The girl was a train wreak with all kinds of cred issues. The evidence supports Zimmerman's claim. You never know with a jury though.

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 01:48 PM
They really aren't. You might be the only person I've seen say that. The girl was a train wreak with all kinds of cred issues. The evidence supports Zimmerman's claim. You never know with a jury though.

Not really,so far they've already had,as of yesterday, 3 witnesses testify that Zimmerman was on top. Also there's no evidence of a broken nose. Zimmerman claimed that after he shot trayvon that he spread his arms apart but trayvon was found with his hands underneath him.
The defense doesn't want to put Zimmerman on the stand there so many contradictions in his statements. Zimmerman was the aggressor here. Another thing is they've played the tapes trayvons scream stop at the moment he's shot.

You are right though,a jury may still find him not guilty.

BroncoInferno
06-28-2013, 02:00 PM
The evidence supports Zimmerman's claim.

Well, no, it doesn't. The only way a person can say that is if they aren't following the trail or else they simply want Zimmerman to win for whatever reason. The defense vastly overstated his injuries, and the scream on the tape is clearly a teenager, not a nearly middle-aged man. It's also clear that Zimmerman was on top during the struggle.

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 02:28 PM
Ah...no to both of you.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/28/zimmerman-defense-grills-witness-for-second-day/?test=latestnews#ixzz2XXlChncA

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 02:59 PM
There was a reason this guy wasn't arrested to begin with and we're seeing it in this trial.

BroncoInferno
06-28-2013, 03:13 PM
There was a reason this guy wasn't arrested to begin with and we're seeing it in this trial.

Bull****. As I've been saying, if you (while armed) follow and harass someone (who's not armed) and not only have no authority to do so, but are specifically told by authorities NOT to do so (like Zimmerman), then you get your ass kicked as a result, it's not self-defense if you then shoot that person. The unarmed Martin was the one in a position of self-defense since it was the armed Zimmerman who initiated an unwanted, unauthorized pursuit of him. By your idiotic logic, a mugger who has the tables turned on him by his victim could shoot that victim and then claim self-defense. Trayvon was the one rightfully in self-defense mode, whether or not he was on top during the scuffle.

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 03:13 PM
There was a reason this guy wasn't arrested to begin with and we're seeing it in this trial.
Yeah, outside of the fact that the lead investigator wanted Zimmerman arrested & charged with manslaughter that very night.

BTW, why is the defense scared to put Zimmerman on the stand? If I were Zimmerman I would want to be on the stand.

El Minion
06-28-2013, 03:21 PM
Exactly, which is why nyuk nyuk is a lunatic. Zimmerman had NO authority to pursue Martin. If someone whom you never met aggressively initiates unwanted contact with you, you kick their ass (i.e. defend yourself), then they shoot you, that is not "self-defense" on their part. By that logic, any mugger who gets his ass kicked and shoots someone could plead self-defense. That only works in the warped, depraved mind of bigots like nyuk nyuk.

Zimmerman went looking for trouble, Martin was minding his own business and walking home, no actual or intent in committing any crime other than walking back home. I think those that side with Zimmerman's actions have a cowboy/hero complex, Zimmerman's gun gave him the self delusion of authority and license to engage Martin and anybody else that his deluded mind told him too.

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 03:22 PM
Yeah, outside of the fact that the lead investigator wanted Zimmerman arrested & charged with manslaughter that very night.

BTW, why is the defense scared to put Zimmerman on the stand? If I were Zimmerman I would want to be on the stand.

It's his right and it's irrelevant. Manslaughter would actually be a charge they could get a conviction on. Instead they went with second degree murder. Also, the bypassed a Grand Jury, which makes zero sense unless you're trying to force something to trial that shouldn't be.

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 03:24 PM
It's his right and it's irrelevant. Manslaughter would actually be a charge they could get a conviction on. Instead they went with second degree murder. Also, the bypassed a Grand Jury, which makes zero sense unless you're trying to force something to trial that shouldn't be.
It is his right,but that's not the reason he isn't taking the stand.

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 03:26 PM
Bull****. As I've been saying, if you (while armed) follow and harass someone (your opinion (who's not armed) and not only have no authority to do sowrong, you don't need authority to follow someone, but are specifically told by authorities NOT to do so (like Zimmerman)he was told by a 911 operator not to pursue the guy, not the police. Even still not illegal, then you get your ass kicked as a result, it's not self-defense it became self-defense when he thought his life was in danger if you then shoot that person. The unarmed Martin was the one in a position of self-defenseeyewitness testimony does not support this claim since it was the armed Zimmerman who initiated an unwantedyour opinion, Zimmerman says MArtin came back to look for him, unauthorized pursuit of himAgain this is nonsense. By your idiotic logic, a mugger who has the tables turned on him by his victim could shoot that victim and then claim self-defense. Trayvon was the one rightfully in self-defense modeyour opinion, whether or not he was on top during the scuffleactually it does matter.

Responses in bold.

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 03:28 PM
It's his right and it's irrelevant. Manslaughter would actually be a charge they could get a conviction on. Instead they went with second degree murder. Also, the bypassed a Grand Jury, which makes zero sense unless you're trying to force something to trial that shouldn't be.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-grand-jury_b_1445714.html

. In 1884, in Hurtado v. California, the Supreme Court specifically ruled that the U.S. Constitution does not require states to use grand juries to formally charge crimes, only the federal government.

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 03:30 PM
Zimmerman went looking for troubleZimmerman was protecting a crime crime area for potential theft, Martin was minding his own business He was, but his behavior was odd enough to catch the attention of the neighbor hood watch and walking home, no actual or intent in committing any crime other than walking back home. I think those that side with Zimmerman's actions have a cowboy/hero complexyour assumption and a wrong one, Zimmerman's gun gave him the self delusion of authority and license to engage Martin and anybody else that his deluded mind told him tooActually the Police and HOA sanctioned neigborhood watch gave him that, as if he needed it.

responses in bold

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 03:31 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-grand-jury_b_1445714.html

I didn't say it was illegal. I said they bypassed it because they knew the evidence was so weak that it wouldn't go to trial on Murder 2.`

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 03:36 PM
I didn't say it was illegal. I said they bypassed it because they knew the evidence was so weak that it wouldn't go to trial on Murder 2.`

You implied there was something wrong/fishy about there not being a grand jury. There's nothing fishy or wrong with that,the state of Florida felt they had enough evidence to proceed without a grand jury.

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 03:38 PM
responses in bold

So walking home with a soda & skittles on the phone is odd behavior?

houghtam
06-28-2013, 03:39 PM
Zimmerman was protecting a crime crime area for potential theft

This is why the second degree charge is important.

The 911 call and his previous calls create an image for the jury of someone wanting to get revenge for other crimes committed in the area.

The jurors' interpretation of the language he used there, as well as the medical assistant giving testimony right now are going to be a much larger determining factor in this case than anything else, IMO.

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 03:41 PM
So walking home with a soda & skittles on the phone is odd behavior?

Really? You think people think that?

He was out in the rain, in the night, looking around, in a place with a growing crime rate. So much so that they had to institute a police department blessed neighbor hood watch. Come on now. That's odd behavior and a person who is on the neighborhood watch should look into it.

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 03:44 PM
This is why the second degree charge is important.

The 911 call and his previous calls create an image for the jury of someone wanting to get revenge for other crimes committed in the area.

The jurors' interpretation of the language he used there, as well as the medical assistant giving testimony right now are going to be a much larger determining factor in this case than anything else, IMO.

No it doesn't. It just says that he took it seriously, which he should. Which language would you be refering to?

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 03:46 PM
You implied there was something wrong/fishy about there not being a grand jury. There's nothing fishy or wrong with that,the state of Florida felt they had enough evidence to proceed without a grand jury.

Like I said. They didn't put it before a grand jury because they had to get this to trial. And they obviously felt it wouldn't, OR they would have out it in front of a Grand Jury.

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 03:52 PM
Really? You think people think that?

He was out in the rain, in the night, looking around, in a place with a growing crime rate. So much so that they had to institute a police department blessed neighbor hood watch. Come on now. That's odd behavior and one a person who is on the neighborhood watch should look into

BFS!you know nothing of that neighborhood. My neighborhood has a neighborhood watch and has always been,even prior to having a watch,been a great neighborhood.

There's absolutely nothing odd or threatening about walking home from the store.

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 03:53 PM
Really? You think people think that?

He was out in the rain, in the night, looking around, in a place with a growing crime rate. So much so that they had to institute a police department blessed neighbor hood watch. Come on now. That's odd behavior and a person who is on the neighborhood watch should look into it.
He wasn't looking around,he was walking home.

houghtam
06-28-2013, 03:56 PM
No it doesn't. It just says that he took it seriously, which he should. Which language would you be refering to?

First off, I should have said the prosecution is using the statements he made to create blah blah blah.

I don't have the audio memorized or in front of me, but his statement of "these assholes always get away with this" (and there are a few others like it) may be interpreted by the jurors as Zimmerman electing to follow Martin with a design on getting revenge, rather than simply performing the duties of a neighborhood watch captain, which we learned from the testimony of the liaison on day one are to watch and listen, not follow or engage.

I don't really have a dog in the race one way or the other...the court of public opinion...yours, mine, peace's...doesn't matter a bit in this. I find it more interesting to study the rhetoric (or - knock knock - lack thereof) of the case.

peacepipe
06-28-2013, 03:56 PM
Anyway the prosecution had a decent day establishing that the injuries were not significant enough to warrant lethal force.

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 03:57 PM
BFS!you know nothing of that neighborhood. My neighborhood has a neighborhood watch and has always been,even prior to having a watch,been a great neighborhood.

There's absolutely nothing odd or threatening about walking home from the store.

Actually the police reports and the crime committed in the area is a matter of public record. Further, your neighborhood has nothing to do with it. And like I explained, he was exhibiting behavior that can be reasonably defined as odd to a neighborhood watchmen.

All of that however is irrelevant:

The crime committed by Martin is when he returned to Zimmerman and started a fight with him. To his credit, I guess, was that he was winning. And that's why he got shot, because Zimmerman though his life was in danger.

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 04:00 PM
First off, I should have said the prosecution is using the statements he made to create blah blah blah.

I don't have the audio memorized or in front of me, but his statement of "these a-holes always get away with this" Nothing wrong with that statement (and there are a few others like it) may be interpreted by the jurors as Zimmerman electing to follow Martin with a design on getting revengethat's totally possible, rather than simply performing the duties of a neighborhood watch captain, which we learned from the testimony of the liaison on day one are to watch and listen, not follow or engage.the testimony from the HOA rep refutes your statement

I don't really have a dog in the race one way or the otherme either other than the gun rights aspect of it and the criminal activity of NBC...the court of public opinion...yours, mine, peace's...doesn't matter a bit in this. I find it more interesting to study the rhetoric (or - knock knock - lack thereof) of the case.

repsonses in bold

Garcia Bronco
06-28-2013, 04:01 PM
Anyway the prosecution had a decent day establishing that the injuries were not significant enough to warrant lethal force.

That's not what justifies deadly force. It's if Zimmerman thought his life was in danger and with Martin on top of him beating him, that is a reasonable assumption.

houghtam
06-28-2013, 04:04 PM
Nothing wrong with that statement

...in your opinion, and not by itself. Have you not been following the trial? That is precisely what the big fuss over admitting the previous non-911 police calls into evidence was about!

As I said, if the prosecution can connect the dots for the jury and establish that Zimmerman was a guy that had gotten so upset by the uptick in crime in his neighborhood that he followed Martin, attributing previous behavior to him and with the intent of getting back at those who had committed crimes...it's over for the defense.

errand
06-28-2013, 09:02 PM
Armed man initiates a confrontation with and kills another person.

Trial? Pfht? Who needs a trial? The guy had some boo-boos!

Following someone doesn't make it a confrontation.

And he didn't shoot the kid until the kid assaulted him.....as the abrasions on Martin's knuckles and the injuries to Zimmerman showed.

Zimmerman was performing the duties he was directed to do by the NWP...he observed and reported, and was walking back towards his vehicle when Trayvon confronted him.

errand
06-28-2013, 09:14 PM
So walking home with a soda & skittles on the phone is odd behavior?

Am I the only who thinks this entire situation could have been diffused by Trayvon just simply turning around and asking Zimmerman -

"Hey man, why are following me?"

Zimmerman - "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"

Trayvon - "I live here with my dad.....1313 Mockingbird Lane"

Zimmerman - "Oh, ok...sorry."

Nobody gets hit...nobody gets shot. Imagine that...

bpc
06-28-2013, 09:17 PM
The problem was Traaaaayvon was trying to keep it real... Only Zimmerman kept it realer.

Cracker ass cracker.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/2c8c4b3b58/chappelle-show-when-keeping-it-real-goes-wrong-1

errand
06-28-2013, 09:18 PM
Anyway the prosecution had a decent day establishing that the injuries were not significant enough to warrant lethal force.

So who decides when your life is in danger?

Is it your attacker who is you know, attacking you while inflicting bodily harm? The EMT or the cops who show up after the fact?

Who decides your life is in danger if not you?

houghtam
06-28-2013, 09:31 PM
So who decides when your life is in danger?

Is it your attacker who is you know, attacking you while inflicting bodily harm? The EMT or the cops who show up after the fact?

Who decides your life is in danger if not you?

You're exactly right. That is why the defense is going to try its damnedest to paint Zimmerman as fearful for his life (Good's testimony) without putting Zimmerman on the stand. If they put him on the stand it hurts them because there are some inconsistencies in his story as well, and his testimony will be fresh in the jury's minds. If they are successful in not having Zimmerman testify, he probably walks.

ant1999e
06-28-2013, 10:52 PM
Male witness testified bigger guy was on top beating smaller guy. Martin was 6'7". He wasn't the 12 yr old depicted in the pictures. White guilt gun hating idiots.

kappys
06-29-2013, 01:59 AM
Man all this white guilt, I thought Zimmerman is hispanic

houghtam
06-29-2013, 05:42 AM
Male witness testified bigger guy was on top beating smaller guy. Martin was 6'7". He wasn't the 12 yr old depicted in the pictures. White guilt gun hating idiots.

Where the **** do you idiots get your information?? I swear.

The initial police report from the night of the shooting lists Martin's height as 6'0" (1.83 m) and weight as 160 lb (73 kg).[15][39]Zimmerman estimated Martin's height at 5'11" to 6'2" on the night of the shooting.[40] The morning after the shooting, an autopsy found that Martin's body was 5'11" (1.80 m) long and weighed 158 lb (72 kg).

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop

White supremist gun loving idiots?

houghtam
06-29-2013, 06:03 AM
White supremist gun loving idiots?

Oh, I see you said you're Hispanic in another thread.

Well then...Hilarious!

cutthemdown
06-29-2013, 09:04 AM
Ane eye witness testified the darker skinned individual was on top, throwing down MMA style punches. Or that may have been added by police and he said throwing down punches and MMA go added later. Either way that will be enough for a couple jurors to say self defense. The case is over Zimmerman will walk.

houghtam
06-29-2013, 09:12 AM
Ane eye witness testified the darker skinned individual was on top, throwing down MMA style punches. Or that may have been added by police and he said throwing down punches and MMA go added later. Either way that will be enough for a couple jurors to say self defense. The case is over Zimmerman will walk.

LOL not quite. Especially after the medical professional testified that Zimmerman trained with MMA three times a week.

I would recommend you rewatch Good's testimony. It's not nearly as rock solid as you're making it out to be. A reasonable juror, especially given other testimony (the screaming, Zimmerman's previous comments, the overstatement of severity of the injuries), could potentially believe that Good isn't remembering what he saw correctly.

This trial has a long way to go yet.

cutthemdown
06-29-2013, 09:16 AM
They won't get the whole jury to convict him IMO. In criminal trials you only need one juror which makes it tough on the prosecution. In civil you only need a majority. IMO he wins the criminal but then gets sued for wrongful death in civil court and loses that one.

cutthemdown
06-29-2013, 09:20 AM
They should have charged him with manslaughter but maybe jury can still go down to that? manslaughter has way less intent when it comes to proving it. I think the DA made a mistake and caved to media pressure in making it a murder case. The g/f being illiterate and snarky, caught in some small lies and wasn't really an outstanding witness. Not bad but not great either.

This is one of those cases the DA probably wishes it didn't have to try.

cutthemdown
06-29-2013, 09:23 AM
LOL not quite. Especially after the medical professional testified that Zimmerman trained with MMA three times a week.

I would recommend you rewatch Good's testimony. It's not nearly as rock solid as you're making it out to be. A reasonable juror, especially given other testimony (the screaming, Zimmerman's previous comments, the overstatement of severity of the injuries), could potentially believe that Good isn't remembering what he saw correctly.

This trial has a long way to go yet.

Also i don't think it has that much longer to go. I bet it wraps up fairly quick. I didn't see a witness list for the prosecution but usually they like to move at a good pace so the jury doesn't get bored. They say 2-4 weeks so soon the prosecution will rest and we will see the defense. Already laid out obviously as self defense and there aren't that many witnesses so it won't talk long.

It will be over before you know it!

houghtam
06-29-2013, 09:30 AM
In a system where everyone is innocent until proven guilty, there are very few slam dunk cases for the prosecution.

Under Florida law they can convict for a lesser crime than was charged. The difference between 2nd degree murder and manslaughter will be, like I've been saying, dependent upon whether the prosecution is successful in linking Zimmerman's state of mind with his intentions, because under Florida law, if they can prove he followed with intent, it doesn't really matter who struck whom first.

DenverBrit
06-29-2013, 09:43 AM
Male witness testified bigger guy was on top beating smaller guy. Martin was 6'7". He wasn't the 12 yr old depicted in the pictures. White guilt gun hating idiots.

Really, 6'7" and you're calling others 'idiot'? ROFL!

DenverBrit
06-29-2013, 09:49 AM
Actually the police reports and the crime committed in the area is a matter of public record. Further, your neighborhood has nothing to do with it. And like I explained, he was exhibiting behavior that can be reasonably defined as odd to a neighborhood watchmen.

All of that however is irrelevant:

The crime committed by Martin is when he returned to Zimmerman and started a fight with him. To his credit, I guess, was that he was winning. And that's why he got shot, because Zimmerman though his life was in danger.

That is the crux.

From what I saw of his injuries, I wouldn't buy into that, unless it could be proven that he's such a milktoast, that he reasonably thought a couple of scratches and a bloody nose equals 'life threatening.'

Tough sell.

Edit: Just been reminded of the PA's testimony that Zimmerman had an MMA training regime 3 times a week. Again, 'life in danger'? A tough sell.

Rohirrim
06-29-2013, 12:12 PM
Trayvon Martin was listed on his death certificate as 5'11" and 158 pounds.

houghtam
06-29-2013, 12:19 PM
Trayvon Martin was listed on his death certificate as 5'11" and 158 pounds.

PA's testimony that Zimmerman had an MMA training regime 3 times a week. Again, 'life in danger'? A tough sell.

This plus Good's testimony where he says the bigger guy was on top. Yes, he describes the skin color and clothing color, but under cross examination admitted that the light that illuminated the area only went as far as his patio.

On a dark street (where you have light in between you and what you're looking at but not pointing at where you're looking...essentially washing it out), you're going to be much less likely to notice color, especially if the two people are on top of one another and moving around, than you would notice body size. Zimmerman clearly was the bigger body than Martin.

At least that's how I would be taking it as a juror based on the testimony I heard from the witness' mouths themselves, not on some partisan website.

ant1999e
06-29-2013, 01:02 PM
Trayvon Martin was listed on his death certificate as 5'11" and 158 pounds.

Yes I was wrong. I just looked up his autopsy report. My bad.

peacepipe
06-30-2013, 02:22 PM
Like I said. They didn't put it before a grand jury because they had to get this to trial. And they obviously felt it wouldn't, OR they would have out it in front of a Grand Jury.

It isn't what you said,they went to trial cause they had the evidence to do so. They wouldn't have gone to grand jury cuz there was never any need to.

peacepipe
06-30-2013, 02:34 PM
Ane eye witness testified the darker skinned individual was on top, throwing down MMA style punches. Or that may have been added by police and he said throwing down punches and MMA go added later. Either way that will be enough for a couple jurors to say self defense. The case is over Zimmerman will walk.

Yes but 3 testified Zimmerman was on top.

cutthemdown
06-30-2013, 03:03 PM
Yeah but one of those 3 admitted she got Martins size from the pictures of him on tv so she is compromised. The other said the guy in red on top, but another said the guy in red on the bottom. It sounds to me like it will be easy to believe both men at some point may have been on top but the witnesses just observed the fight at slightly different times.

Going to be tough for the jury and i would not want to be on it.

Requiem
06-30-2013, 07:12 PM
Guilty.

Fedaykin
06-30-2013, 08:52 PM
LMAO at 'MMA style punching'.

Garcia Bronco
07-01-2013, 10:33 AM
Yes but 3 testified Zimmerman was on top.

Ever seen a fight on the ground? People roll around. The important distinction here is that when Martin was shot that he was on top and working over Zimmerman. Everything else is irrelevant at that point and the forensic evidence doesn't support Zimmerman being on top and firing down at Martin. Lastly, those witnesses did not have a good a view as the last and closest witness when Martin was actually shot.

Garcia Bronco
07-01-2013, 10:34 AM
It isn't what you said,they went to trial cause they had the evidence to do so. They wouldn't have gone to grand jury cuz there was never any need to.

They went to trial because of political pressure and they by passed a Grand Jury to do it.

cutthemdown
07-01-2013, 10:35 AM
I wonder if its true and the phrase MMA punches was added by a cop at the scene and not a witness. This is bad police work in some respects.

Garcia Bronco
07-01-2013, 10:36 AM
I wonder if its true and the phrase MMA punches was added by a cop at the scene and not a witness. This is bad police work in some respects.

It's not a descriptor that changes anything. A punch is a punch.

houghtam
07-01-2013, 11:10 AM
It's not a descriptor that changes anything. A punch is a punch.

You are clearly neither watching the trial not familiar enough with the legal system to realize how wrong you are. The use of that term and the prosecution's connection of that with the fact that he trained in MMA three times a week is very important to their case and could definitely influence the jury's understanding of the altercation.

Your responses in bold are nothing but repeated flailing attempts to defend the guy without paying attention to the actual case. What about the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story? What about his statements on the phone calls? What about his statement about there being bushes when there were no bushes there?

For someone with "no dog in this race", you're sure taking a pretty one-sided stance on this, from claiming it shouldn't go to trial in the first place to believing everything Zimmerman said, ignoring the inconsistencies in his story and everyone else's testimony.

You're so impartial. Uhh

Garcia Bronco
07-01-2013, 11:23 AM
You are clearly neither watching the trial not familiar enough with the legal system to realize how wrong you are. The use of that term and the prosecution's connection of that with the fact that he trained in MMA three times a week is very important to their case and could definitely influence the jury's understanding of the altercation.

Your responses in bold are nothing but repeated flailing attempts to defend the guy without paying attention to the actual case. What about the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story? What about his statements on the phone calls? What about his statement about there being bushes when there were no bushes there?

For someone with "no dog in this race", you're sure taking a pretty one-sided stance on this, from claiming it shouldn't go to trial in the first place to believing everything Zimmerman said, ignoring the inconsistencies in his story and everyone else's testimony.

You're so impartial. Uhh

There are no inconsistencies in his story that aren't considered natural in remembering a traumatic event. The term "ground and pound" merely makes reference to being pinned down and getting punched, more typically in a defenseless manner. His statements on the phones are irrelevant in the sense that his statements on the phone didn't put anyone's life at risk nor were they illegal or inappropriate. They do match up with someone who's interested in the security of their neighborhood. It's not a matter of believing everything of what Zimmerman states and everything to do with there being no one alive to refute it and the forensic evidence being consistence with his account.

And what Isaid was. "There is a reason this didn't go to trial in the first place." That reason is the states case is weak. Especially for murder 2. Now manslaughter is a different matter.

houghtam
07-01-2013, 11:45 AM
There are no inconsistencies in his story that aren't considered natural in remembering a traumatic event. The term "ground and pound" merely makes reference to being pinned down and getting punched, more typically in a defenseless manner. His statements on the phones are irrelevant in the sense that his statements on the phone didn't put anyone's life at risk nor were they illegal or inappropriate. They do match up with someone who's interested in the security of their neighborhood. It's not a matter of believing everything of what Zimmerman states and everything to do with there being no one alive to refute it and the forensic evidence being consistence with his account.

And what Isaid was. "There is a reason this didn't go to trial in the first place." That reason is the states case is weak. Especially for murder 2. Now manslaughter is a different matter.

His statements on the phone are most certainly relevant, and as I pointed out to you, are the REASON they went with Murder 2 and not manslaughter.

Your irrational concern for the future of gun rights based on the result of this case is clouding your view of the facts being presented in the case. There are major inconsistencies. Saying he ducked into some bushes when there was nothing of that sort is very difficult to pin as "misremembering".

Our judicial system gives presumption of innocence, it does not give presumption of telling the truth. There are major inconsistencies, and they need to be explained to the jury.

cutthemdown
07-01-2013, 01:12 PM
Prosecuters seem pretty good but the witness today was sympathetic to Zimmerman. Wierd usually the cops don't frustrate a prosecutor like that. The cop who took his statement seemed sort of pro zimmerman IMO.

cutthemdown
07-01-2013, 01:15 PM
I think if it doesn't get worst for defense soon they may not put Zimmerman on the stand. They may just say you have heard testimoney from good people and its obvious there is reasonable doubt here. The one witness who said she was on the phone when it started confirmed it was Martin who profiled Zimmerman as a cracker. Then she got caught in some lies and come off as pretty street. A few jurors may find her not credible.

You never know what juries will do though but murder 2 seems like a reach.

peacepipe
07-01-2013, 01:19 PM
I think if it doesn't get worst for defense soon they may not put Zimmerman on the stand. They may just say you have heard testimoney from good people and its obvious there is reasonable doubt here. The one witness who said she was on the phone when it started confirmed it was Martin who profiled Zimmerman as a cracker. Then she got caught in some lies and come off as pretty street. A few jurors may find her not credible.

You never know what juries will do though but murder 2 seems like a reach.

It's a big reach to say martin profiled Zimmerman,you can even say it's outright lie. You just got to listen to the 911 tapes to know Zimmerman profiled martin.

Garcia Bronco
07-01-2013, 01:22 PM
It's a big reach to say martin profiled Zimmerman,you can even say it's outright lie. You just got to listen to the 911 tapes to know Zimmerman profiled martin.

"profiling" someone isn't illegal. But no, if you're going to say GZ profiled Martin, then MArtin did the same thing. Either way, it's irrelevant in the case.

cutthemdown
07-01-2013, 01:23 PM
It's a big reach to say martin profiled Zimmerman,you can even say it's outright lie. You just got to listen to the 911 tapes to know Zimmerman profiled martin.

Well he said some crazy cracker following me lol. That shows he will use racial slurs before he attacks someone either in self defense or not.

peacepipe
07-01-2013, 01:40 PM
Referring someone as cracker isn't profiling. Assuming someone is doing something wrong because they are black is ,which is what Zimmerman was doing.

Garcia Bronco
07-01-2013, 01:59 PM
Referring someone as cracker isn't profilingYes it is and MArtin did say this according to his friend. Assuming someone is doing something wrong because they are black is ,which is what Zimmerman was doingThat's your opinion and not based on any facts. I must have missed in the recordings where Zimmerman used a racial slur like say Martin did..

Responses in bold

cutthemdown
07-01-2013, 03:17 PM
Referring someone as cracker isn't profiling. Assuming someone is doing something wrong because they are black is ,which is what Zimmerman was doing.

Is cracker a racial slur?

houghtam
07-01-2013, 03:31 PM
Referring someone as cracker isn't profiling. Assuming someone is doing something wrong because they are black is ,which is what Zimmerman was doing.

Actually "because he is black" isn't even part of the case. The point that the prosecution is making is that Zimmerman followed Martin with intent to do harm. It had nothing to do with race. If you watch the trial, they are not even attempting to bring race into it. And they are smart not to do so. It is a lot easier for a jury to see white vs black than Hispanic vs black, the fact that there's no evidence he acted based on race notwithstanding.

cutthemdown
07-01-2013, 11:50 PM
The cop testifying how upset Zimmerman was, full of remorse, sort of flys in the face of Zimmerman a cold blooded killer out to hurt someone. It's obvious his intent was to protect his neighborhood. Also since when wasn't it about race? Only recently have they dropped the whole Zimmerman racially profiled him. Most likely because they didn't get the jury makeup they wanted and its too white.

cutthemdown
07-01-2013, 11:51 PM
Houghtam is the term cracker a racial slur or not?

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 03:22 AM
The cop testifying how upset Zimmerman was, full of remorse, sort of flys in the face of Zimmerman a cold blooded killer out to hurt someone. It's obvious his intent was to protect his neighborhood. Also since when wasn't it about race? Only recently have they dropped the whole Zimmerman racially profiled him. Most likely because they didn't get the jury makeup they wanted and its too white.

1. You don't need to be a cold blooded killer to be convicted.
2. What's obvious is Zimmerman was out looking for trouble and he found it,then provoked it.
3. Zimmerman profiled martin. He didn't say "****ing punks" and "these ass holes always get away with it" without having profiled martin.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 04:22 AM
1. You don't need to be a cold blooded killer to be convicted.
2. What's obvious is Zimmerman was out looking for trouble and he found it,then provoked it.
3. Zimmerman profiled martin. He didn't say "****ing punks" and "these a-holes always get away with it" without having profiled martin.

1-agree you dont have to be cold blooded to get convicted. But sympathy for the defendant from a prosecution witness that is also a cop is very good for the defense and paints Zimmerman in better light.

2-It's obvious he thought Martin was up to no good and because of a previous robbery was being over zealous. But looking for trouble IMO is your opinion.

3-Profiling somone as up to no good, punks, aholes is bad language but it only shows he thought Martin was a theif. Profiling is just waiting for any black dude to come through. Since no other black dudes been stopped by Zimmerman doesn't seem to be a pattern other then he reports suspicious behavoir to the police a little too often.

I agree he went too far i just don't think they will gt murder 2 on him. Too much of the evidence goes both ways and IMO it will be easy to get 1 or even 2-3 jurors voting for not guilty.

houghtam
07-02-2013, 06:22 AM
The cop testifying how upset Zimmerman was, full of remorse, sort of flys in the face of Zimmerman a cold blooded killer out to hurt someone. It's obvious his intent was to protect his neighborhood. Also since when wasn't it about race? Only recently have they dropped the whole Zimmerman racially profiled him. Most likely because they didn't get the jury makeup they wanted and its too white.

Try since the trial actually started. You know, the thing the jurors are supposed to pay attention to.

Have you watched the prosecution build ANY of its case so far, cut? Or are you like Garcia, ant1999e and several other just going off what they heard. I would think someone with the extensive experience you have filing for people who do actual legal work to know not to pay attention to the media hype and speculation surrounding a case, but rather the actual case itself. Sally Strouthers not teach you that?

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 07:39 AM
Yes i have followed. The prosecution is focusing on some inconsistent statements he made trying to show that indicates he was profiling the victim. But on cross the police were rather kind to the defense. The easily agreed that the inconsistent statements are to be expected in a traumatic event. Then they outright asked defense on a scale from liar, to telling the truth how do you rate Zimmerman. The cop said truthfull! I can only imagine the prosecution being frustrated to tell you the truth.

You actually just don't know what to look for Houghtam go back to watching movies about courtroom drama and taking care of the kids.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 07:43 AM
Basically just on cross examination, without calling witnesses, the defense has tons of testimoney pointing to reasonable doubt about whether it was murder 2 or self defense. True its not a slam dunk. Zimmerman had some inconsistent statements that could mean he made it seem like Martin jumped him when maybe the fight started more face to face. Not sure a few things like that enough for the jury though. I have serious doubts. Then the voice expert basically said forget about identifying with accuracy whose voices are on the 911 call. Thats another thing that will leave the jury unsatisfied and full of doubt.

I think he is going to walk on the murder 2 but like i said before we will have to wait and see if when it goes to the jury if they get instructions on manslaughter.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 07:43 AM
1-agree you dont have to be cold blooded to get convicted. But sympathy for the defendant from a prosecution witness that is also a cop is very good for the defense and paints Zimmerman in better light.

2-It's obvious he thought Martin was up to no good and because of a previous robbery was being over zealous. But looking for trouble IMO is your opinion.

3-Profiling somone as up to no good, punks, aholes is bad language but it only shows he thought Martin was a theif. Profiling is just waiting for any black dude to come through. Since no other black dudes been stopped by Zimmerman doesn't seem to be a pattern other then he reports suspicious behavoir to the police a little too often.

I agree he went too far i just don't think they will gt murder 2 on him. Too much of the evidence goes both ways and IMO it will be easy to get 1 or even 2-3 jurors voting for not guilty.
That's exactly my point,what about martin walking home with an ice tea and a bag of skittles made him look like a thief?

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 07:46 AM
There a pattern cause he made complaints to 911 before on multiple occasions about black kids in the neighborhood. He does have a history of singling out black kids.

barryr
07-02-2013, 07:58 AM
Houghtam is the term cracker a racial slur or not?

LOL, he dodges very well.

barryr
07-02-2013, 08:02 AM
Let's see, CNN broadcasts Zimmerman's address, social security number, and other personal info. on air, but it's Fox News who is the slanted news channel. It was funny also how they tried to create Zimmerman into being a white guy as well when this first happened. Liberals can not leave the race issue out of anything since they believe they are the defenders, but are the first to condemn any black conservative and use racial slurs when they deem it is ok. The liberal media just gets worse and worse and their blind's eye to the joke we have in the WH is most sickening of all.

houghtam
07-02-2013, 08:18 AM
Yes i have followed. The prosecution is focusing on some inconsistent statements he made trying to show that indicates he was profiling the victim. But on cross the police were rather kind to the defense. The easily agreed that the inconsistent statements are to be expected in a traumatic event. Then they outright asked defense on a scale from liar, to telling the truth how do you rate Zimmerman. The cop said truthfull! I can only imagine the prosecution being frustrated to tell you the truth.

You actually just don't know what to look for Houghtam go back to watching movies about courtroom drama and taking care of the kids.

Except the question wasn't whether I have followed the case, it was whether race has played a role in it. If you actually HAD been watching, you'd know it made up about 0% of the prosecution's case.

You and I both agree that this isn't going to be a cakewalk for either side. But Zimmerman is still innocent until he is proven guilty. I'm simply pointing out that the prosecution has a stronger case than idiots like Garcia think based on what they read and what little they know of legal proceedings and case building strategy, or idiots like any1999e who believe everything they read even they go in direct contradiction to the facts of the case.

The fact of the matter is that the prosecution is doing a decent job of bringing the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story to light. By the time the prosecution rests, the defense will have a very difficult decision to make on whether to put him on the stand, and those inconsistencies are going to be one of the last things on the jurors' minds if he does testify.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 08:20 AM
That's exactly my point,what about martin walking home with an ice tea and a bag of skittles made him look like a thief?

He claims he looked into houses. If i told you lawyers think defense is going to win would that sway you? What are we arguing whether hes going to be convicted, or whether he is lying about some stuff. Fla couldn't even get Casey Anthoney convicted.

In my mind i would be saying the guy wasn't out looking just to shoot someone. You don't call police and report a suspicious person if your intent is criminal. So murder 2 IMO this would not rise to. Just my opinion though and trials can always go either way.

BroncoInferno
07-02-2013, 09:00 AM
Let's see, CNN broadcasts Zimmerman's address, social security number, and other personal info. on air, but it's Fox News who is the slanted news channel. It was funny also how they tried to create Zimmerman into being a white guy as well when this first happened. Liberals can not leave the race issue out of anything since they believe they are the defenders, but are the first to condemn any black conservative and use racial slurs when they deem it is ok. The liberal media just gets worse and worse and their blind's eye to the joke we have in the WH is most sickening of all.

You can always count on barryr to not give any examples to back up his accusations. Making **** up, as always. Care to give us an example of the bolded?

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 11:30 AM
You can always count on barryr to not give any examples to back up his accusations. Making **** up, as always. Care to give us an example of the bolded?

Ahh yes. It was originally reported as white on black crime based on the statements made by the young woman Martin was on the phone with. She was using Martin's comments that Zimmerman was a "creepy azz cracka"

Arkie
07-02-2013, 11:52 AM
I'm on the side of "I have no idea what happened." I hope the trial brings out the facts, but that's not a foregone conclusion in any case as high profile as this.

That's where I stand. It would be interesting to see how different this thread would've been if Martin wasn't black or Zimmerman was. Lives should come before politics.

DenverBroncosJM
07-02-2013, 12:26 PM
So walking home with a soda & skittles on the phone is odd behavior?

When you are white..no. When you are black, yes. Just because he is half Hispanic doesn't mean it isn't race related.

I cannot believe anyone would even defend this wacko.

DenverBroncosJM
07-02-2013, 12:28 PM
Really? You think people think that?

He was out in the rain, in the night, looking around, in a place with a growing crime rate. So much so that they had to institute a police department blessed neighbor hood watch. Come on now. That's odd behavior and a person who is on the neighborhood watch should look into it.

Just for the record all neighborhood watch programs are blessed by the police department. If you call them today they will send an officer out to instruct you on the program.

BroncoInferno
07-02-2013, 12:55 PM
Ahh yes. It was originally reported as white on black crime based on the statements made by the young woman Martin was on the phone with. She was using Martin's comments that Zimmerman was a "creepy azz cracka"

Reporting on what a witness said is not the same thing as the media claiming Zimmerman was white.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 01:00 PM
Race has played a roll in this because of how the media and certain politicians like to play that card when current events and racial tensions collide into a media firestorm. He looks like my son would look. Yeah our president actually said that.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 01:27 PM
Man the police in this case are pro zimmerman. Here is what a cop said today.

Serino testified Monday that at first he did not believe Zimmerman's story, but when he told Zimmerman the fatal, February, 2012 encounter may have been caught on video, Zimmerman's response of "Thank God" changed his mind, Serino said.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 01:38 PM
Another thing serino pointed out is that there was no blood on trayvon martins hands. Which is significant because Zimmerman claimed martin tried to suffocate him with hand. There's no way martin could not have gotten blood on his hands if that were true.

Fedaykin
07-02-2013, 01:58 PM
Another thing serino pointed out is that there was no blood on trayvon martins hands. Which is significant because Zimmerman claimed martin tried to suffocate him with hand. There's no way martin could not have gotten blood on his hands if that were true.

Not to mention the lack of any wounds on his hands, which were highly likely even if he was doing any serious punching. It takes a lot of time and effort to train and condition yourself to throw a serious punch (to a non soft target) without also hurting your hand to some degree (bruises, lacerations, broken bones, sprained wrists, etc).

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 02:04 PM
Not to mention the lack of any wounds on his hands, which were highly likely even if he was doing any serious punching. It takes a lot of time and effort to train and condition yourself to throw a serious punch (to a non soft target) without also hurting your hand to some degree (bruises, lacerations, broken bones, sprained wrists, etc).

Also,there was no blood on the sidewalk.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 02:05 PM
The problem with all those little things is fights are hard to describe and the cops admit that. Then cops say they think he is truthful and the prosecution has to object to it. The judge unrang the bell by saying disregard that last answer as one witness not allowed to speculate on another witnesses truthfullness? Whatever not sure why judge sustained it but there is a saying in the legal world you can't really uynring the bell.

Time and again jurors admit that testimoney they were told to disregard still swayed them. It's impossible to unhear something or disregard it completely.

Zimmerman could say well i couldn't see well once the fight started. I thought it was his hand, or maybe he got hit after that, or the pavement caused all the wounds, who knows. Just saying the police are not helping the prosecution enough to remove reasonable doubt. Manslaughter probably already proved but they went against the police recommendation for manslaughter.

Who knows maybe the fact these officers are pro zimmerman is because they are pissed the DA made them look bad? the media made them look bad?

I've followed a lot of trials and honestly never say the police offer up goodies for the defense under prosecution direct examination. Usually they stick to the facts and give opinions showing guilt. Then maybe under cross examination the defense can pull out some goodies. Or maybe when defense calls their witnesses they get some police experts from outside the area to help them a bit. Usually you have to pay those ones though so it doesn't look great.

Just like when the doctor testified that the wounds were insignificant and not life threatening, maybe even from one punch. Then under cross she grudingly admitted it could have been more punches, but then added that is not her opinion. She was being very prosecution friendly. Then under cross defense pulls out that she owes her job and position in the govt to the person whose office is conducting the case. BOOM! her bias showed.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 02:07 PM
Yeah but in the end doesn't he say it was a struggle for his weapon? How many punches thrown before that may not matter once it gets to that point. They should have just sent this down the pike in a plea deal for manslaughter. He does some times, get out quick, over for family and they can get on with a wrongful death case. Too bad guy doesn't have any money though just don't see what they could get out of him. Maybe any money from a movie deal or something i don't know.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 02:08 PM
Police could have missed blood on the sidewalk. They don't seem to be that on top of this whole situation IMO.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 02:09 PM
The problem with all those little things is fights are hard to describe and the cops admit that. Then cops say they think he is truthful and the prosecution has to object to it. The judge unrang the bell by saying disregard that last answer as one witness not allowed to speculate on another witnesses truthfullness? Whatever not sure why judge sustained it but there is a saying in the legal world you can't really uynring the bell.

Time and again jurors admit that testimoney they were told to disregard still swayed them. It's impossible to unhear something or disregard it completely.

Zimmerman could say well i couldn't see well once the fight started. I thought it was his hand, or maybe he got hit after that, or the pavement caused all the wounds, who knows. Just saying the police are not helping the prosecution enough to remove reasonable doubt. Manslaughter probably already proved but they went against the police recommendation for manslaughter.

Who knows maybe the fact these officers are pro zimmerman is because they are pissed the DA made them look bad? the media made them look bad?

I've followed a lot of trials and honestly never say the police offer up goodies for the defense under prosecution direct examination. Usually they stick to the facts and give opinions showing guilt. Then maybe under cross examination the defense can pull out some goodies. Or maybe when defense calls their witnesses they get some police experts from outside the area to help them a bit. Usually you have to pay those ones though so it doesn't look great.

Just like when the doctor testified that the wounds were insignificant and not life threatening, maybe even from one punch. Then under cross she grudingly admitted it could have been more punches, but then added that is not her opinion. She was being very prosecution friendly. Then under cross defense pulls out that she owes her job and position in the govt to the person whose office is conducting the case. BOOM! her bias showed.

As many times as Zimmerman was supposedly punched there would've been some blood.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 02:12 PM
Another problem is that the medical examiners testimony goes against Zimmerman story. The MEs testimony is going to carry more weight than any witness.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 02:14 PM
Police could have missed blood on the sidewalk. They don't seem to be that on top of this whole situation IMO.

It's a good thing that a crime scene unit would've been on top of it.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 02:17 PM
Yeah but in the end doesn't he say it was a struggle for his weapon? How many punches thrown before that may not matter once it gets to that point. They should have just sent this down the pike in a plea deal for manslaughter. He does some times, get out quick, over for family and they can get on with a wrongful death case. Too bad guy doesn't have any money though just don't see what they could get out of him. Maybe any money from a movie deal or something i don't know.

There was never a struggle for his gun. The witness recanted and stated he "misheard" Zimmerman when he wrote his book.

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 02:40 PM
Reporting on what a witness said is not the same thing as the media claiming Zimmerman was white.

Nah Bro. It was reported as such by the media over a year ago.

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 02:41 PM
Another thing serino pointed out is that there was no blood on trayvon martins hands. Which is significant because Zimmerman claimed martin tried to suffocate him with hand. There's no way martin could not have gotten blood on his hands if that were true.

That's not true. All manner of things can happen.

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 02:42 PM
Not to mention the lack of any wounds on his hands, which were highly likely even if he was doing any serious punching. It takes a lot of time and effort to train and condition yourself to throw a serious punch (to a non soft target) without also hurting your hand to some degree (bruises, lacerations, broken bones, sprained wrists, etc).

He could have been using and/or connecting with the butt of his palms. Really an irrelevant detail.

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 02:42 PM
Another problem is that the medical examiners testimony goes against Zimmerman story. The MEs testimony is going to carry more weight than any witness.

No it doesn't, and maybe or maybe not.

cutthemdown
07-02-2013, 02:44 PM
The medical examiner hurt the defense pretty good but the police didn't at all. But the defense will call their own medical experts. Remember to this point its all prosecution and its all on them to prove without any reasonable doubt Zimmerman profiled him, followed him, chased him, lied about the fight and shot him. i just don't think its going to happen. The prosecution probably almost done. Witnesses, cops, medical experts all testified. i haven't seen a witness list but maybe only a few more days for them.

Then we will see how good Zimmermans defense is.

BroncoInferno
07-02-2013, 02:45 PM
Nah Bro. It was reported as such by the media over a year ago.

Then it shouldn't be difficult to provide a concrete example. Hell, there may be one, but I'm just pointing out that barryr (and oftentimes you) like to make claims without backing them up with verifiable examples.

BroncoInferno
07-02-2013, 02:50 PM
No it doesn't

Yes, it does. You either didn't understand the testimony or else you're just making **** up. Which is it?

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 02:52 PM
That's not true. All manner of things can happen.

Well considering the amt of blood on zimmermans face,which the defense made so abundantly clear in the pictures they showed the jury, and the presentation the prosecutor made with serinos help made zimmermans story suspect.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 02:57 PM
He could have been using and/or connecting with the butt of his palms. Really an irrelevant detail.

Keep to the facts, martin according Zimmerman was punching not using his palm.either way there would've been blood on martins hands.

barryr
07-02-2013, 03:08 PM
You can always count on barryr to not give any examples to back up his accusations. Making **** up, as always. Care to give us an example of the bolded?

Always can count on you to defend the liberal media while pretending you aren't one and neither are they. The liberals in the media tried to make this about race from the beginning, yet they did it with a latin guy killing a black one? Right. Keep hiding in your head in the sand or someplace else.

BroncoInferno
07-02-2013, 03:09 PM
Always can count on you to defend the liberal media while pretending you aren't one and neither are they. The liberals in the media tried to make this about race from the beginning, yet they did it with a latin guy killing a black one? Right. Keep hiding in your head in the sand or someplace else.

Still nary an example. What a stunner Uhh

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 03:20 PM
Then it shouldn't be difficult to provide a concrete example. Hell, there may be one, but I'm just pointing out that barryr (and oftentimes you) like to make claims without backing them up with verifiable examples.

okay....lol.


http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida...044537742.html




ORLANDO, Florida (Reuters) - The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday.

Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said.

"He was a good kid," Crump said in an interview, adding that the family would issue a call for the Watch captain's arrest at a news conference on Thursday. "On his way home, a Neighborhood Watch loose cannon shot and killed him."

[Related: Fla. teen avoids deportation]

Trayvon, who lived in Miami with his mother, had been visiting his father and stepmother in a gated townhome community called The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, 20 miles north of Orlando.

As Trayvon returned to the townhome, Sanford police received a 911 call reporting a suspicious person.

Although names are blacked out on the police report, Crump and media reports at the time of the shooting identified the caller as George Zimmerman who is listed in the community's newsletter as the Neighborhood Watch captain.

Without waiting for police to arrive, Crump said, Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk near his home. By the time police got there, Trayvon was dead of a single gunshot to the chest.

"What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles," Crump said. "A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad."

Zimmerman could not be reached for comment on Wednesday evening at a phone number listed for him on the community's newsletter.

Crump said the family was concerned that police might decide to consider the shooting as self defense, and that police have ignored the family's request for a copy of the original 911 call, which they think will shed light on the incidents.

"If the 911 protocol across the country held to form here, they told him not to get involved. He disobeyed that order," said Ryan Julison, a spokesman for the family.

"He (Zimmerman) didn't have to get out of his car," said Crump, who has prepared a public records lawsuit to file on Thursday if the family doesn't get the 911 tape. "If he never gets out of his car, there is no reason for self-defense. Trayvon only has skittles. He has the gun."

Since Trayvon, a high school junior who wanted to be a pilot, was black and Zimmerman is white, Crump said race is "the 600 pound elephant in the room."

"Why is this kid suspicious in the first place? I think a stereotype must have been placed on the kid," Crump said.

(Editing By Cynthia Johnston and Peter Bohan)

BroncoInferno
07-02-2013, 03:22 PM
^ Fair enough.

See how that works? Make a claim, back it up with actual evidence. Not a difficult concept.

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 03:24 PM
Well considering the amt of blood on zimmermans face,which the defense made so abundantly clear in the pictures they showed the jury, and the presentation the prosecutor made with serinos help made zimmermans story suspect.

Nah...it's depends on when the blood bled, but again...irrelevant in the sense that Zimmerman though his life was in danger.

Fedaykin
07-02-2013, 03:29 PM
He could have been using and/or connecting with the butt of his palms. Really an irrelevant detail.

Striking someone with the palm (otherwise know as trying to push them away) is a defensive technique, and not all all consistent with the various claims of Zimmerman, et al.

houghtam
07-02-2013, 03:36 PM
There are a lot of "he could'ves" here.

This is where reasonable doubt comes in. The more instances the prosecution makes of "he could've" this or that, the easier they're making the jury's decision.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 03:37 PM
He could have been using and/or connecting with the butt of his palms. Really an irrelevant detail.


It's relevant cause it contradicts zimmermans story.

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 03:39 PM
Yes, it does. You either didn't understand the testimony or else you're just making **** up. Which is it?

It's an opinion. I don't think the medical examiner, who is a employee of the state, really cahnged the defenses story. Which is Zimmerman was in fear for his life so he shot the kid.

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 03:39 PM
It's relevant cause it contradicts zimmermans story.

I don't think so.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 03:43 PM
It's an opinion. I don't think the medical examiner, who is a employee of the state, really cahnged the defenses story. Which is Zimmerman was in fear for his life so he shot the kid.
LOL is this really what you're resorting to to make your case? Lets release everyone currently in prison in the USA because the medical examiner is an employee of the state.

Garcia Bronco
07-02-2013, 03:44 PM
LOL is this really what you're resorting to to make your case? Lets release everyone currently in prison in the USA because the medical examiner is an employee of the state.

Nah. As Cut said..the defense will probably call their own. It's very common. You can gather this from watching old episodes of Perry Mason.

Fedaykin
07-02-2013, 03:47 PM
Palm strikes are used by martial artists particularly to avoid the types of injuries that you're likely to get from trying to use a closed fist. Outside of a few very specific defensive techniques aimed at soft body targets ( including attacking the nose btw ) it's not taught.

It's not taught because it's not effective. Smacking someone with your palm can hurt a bit, especially if it's in the nose, but is not even remotely the type of thing that would cause any reasonable person (let alone a trained martial artist like Zimmerman apparently was) to fear for his life.

The reason you punch someone is to get maximum pressure. A proper punch applies all the force of the punch on your first and second knuckles which you align with your carpels and radius/ulna to translate the force into your wrist/arm without applying a transverse force on your carpels. Failing to do this properly results in broken knuckles/carpels and/or a broken/sprained wrist. The same force applied in a palm strike is around an order to two orders of magnitude less pressure. It's why you don't use it unless you're aiming at a soft target and/or your goal is to move the other person, not damage them.

errand
07-02-2013, 05:42 PM
Not to mention the lack of any wounds on his hands, which were highly likely even if he was doing any serious punching. It takes a lot of time and effort to train and condition yourself to throw a serious punch (to a non soft target) without also hurting your hand to some degree (bruises, lacerations, broken bones, sprained wrists, etc).

Sup b****?

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-say-slain-teen-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles/

errand
07-02-2013, 06:01 PM
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

This is what the Florida "stand your ground" law states.

For those who think Zimmerman will be sued if he is acquitted of 2nd degree murder....keep this in mind -

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

ant1999e
07-02-2013, 06:02 PM
I question if the prosecution ever really wanted to try this case or if they were forces to by political pressure. They aren't trying real hard to win it.

errand
07-02-2013, 06:10 PM
I question if the prosecution ever really wanted to try this case or if they were forces to by political pressure. They aren't trying real hard to win it.

The investigating officer stated he believed Zimmerman's version of events...and felt there was no need to charge him.

But once the race baiters like Sharpton and Jackson got involved, along with the president stating that "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon..." it didn't take long before the district attorney bowed to political pressure to charge him.

I can understand some thinking that perhaps they charged him with 2nd degree murder because they knew they had a weak case, and if he is acquitted, then they could always say "Well, the legal system works"

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 06:13 PM
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

This is what the Florida "stand your ground" law states.

For those who think Zimmerman will be sued if he is acquitted of 2nd degree murder....keep this in mind -

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

This case isn't being defended on the grounds of stand your ground. Probably because the people who wrote the law stated publicly that SYG didn't apply to zimmermans case.

Fedaykin
07-02-2013, 09:18 PM
Sup b****?

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57436083-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-autopsy-results-say-slain-teen-had-injuries-to-his-knuckles/

Sorry dumb ass, but the actual autopsy report indicates no wounds consistent with any sort of physical alternation on Martin's hands.

"According to Martin’s autopsy report, the young man died from a single gunshot wound to his chest. The autopsy will be a key piece of evidence in this trial, as both sides attempt to string together a timeline and explanation of the night for the jury. According to the report, other than the single gunshot wound, Martin had only one other injury on his body -- a small abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle."

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/10/george-zimmerman-murder-trayvon-martin-autopsy

NUB
07-02-2013, 09:47 PM
The judge could totally throw this case out if it wasn't a nationally televised circus right now.

http://rollingout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/george-zimmerman-face-1.jpg

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/05/17/zimmerman6_620x412.jpg

Had Trayvon lived, he would have been charged with assault and battery. Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of the car and followed, but that's totally irrelevant. His head was being smashed into the concrete and he chose to defend himself in the best way possible. End of story. I cannot believe the absurdity this case has brought out of some people. I just watched a prosecutor say if they were given those pictures as a case, they would not press assault and battery. Is everyone out of their minds? In what looney tune world do we live in where injuries like that are used against the victim? In what looney tune world does the man who has zero evidence of racism in his life, but in fact has a history of helping his community including its black population, gets labeled a racist while the kid who literally described him using a racial epithet gets totally ignored? I'm surprised the prosecution thinks they should bring up Zimmerman's past, which has zero value to the case. All it's going to do is open another can of worms in Martin's own past. A past that shows him flashing guns, gangsigns, weed, and everything else that would signify the sort of person who would ambush and beat a man.

I was amazed in every sense of the word by the medical examiner's statements and the direction the prosecutor took with them. These injuries aren't severe, therefore ... what? It doesn't matter! If I took a swing at you with a baseball bat and missed, would you have any injuries at all? Nope! But would you feel threatened and perhaps compelled to defend yourself? Of course. This is such a low-point for American media, television, the justice system, racial tensions, all of it. Beyond silly. And much of the media's obfuscation of the facts is going to be directly culpable for the inevitable riots and violence that will follow a not guilty verdict. There's truly not a single piece of evidence one could use to say Zimmerman murdered this kid, but you wouldn't know that watching most T.V. stations.

ant1999e
07-02-2013, 09:55 PM
The medical examiner that testified today said there were wounds on Martins knuckles.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 10:11 PM
The judge could totally throw this case out if it wasn't a nationally televised circus right now.

http://rollingout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/george-zimmerman-face-1.jpg

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/05/17/zimmerman6_620x412.jpg

Had Trayvon lived, he would have been charged with assault and battery. Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of the car and followed, but that's totally irrelevant. His head was being smashed into the concrete and he chose to defend himself in the best way possible. End of story. I cannot believe the absurdity this case has brought out of some people. I just watched a prosecutor say if they were given those pictures as a case, they would not press assault and battery. Is everyone out of their minds? In what looney tune world do we live in where injuries like that are used against the victim? In what looney tune world does the man who has zero evidence of racism in his life, but in fact has a history of helping his community including its black population, gets labeled a racist while the kid who literally described him using a racial epithet gets totally ignored? I'm surprised the prosecution thinks they should bring up Zimmerman's past, which has zero value to the case. All it's going to do is open another can of worms in Martin's own past. A past that shows him flashing guns, gangsigns, weed, and everything else that would signify the sort of person who would ambush and beat a man.

I was amazed in every sense of the word by the medical examiner's statements and the direction the prosecutor took with them. These injuries aren't severe, therefore ... what? It doesn't matter! If I took a swing at you with a baseball bat and missed, would you have any at all? Nope! But would you feel threatened and perhaps compelled to defend yourself? Of course. This is such a low-point for American media, television, the justice system, racial tensions, all of it. Beyond silly. And much of the media's obfuscation of the facts is going to be directly culpable for the inevitable riots and violence that will follow a not guilty verdict. There's truly not a single piece of evidence one could use to say Zimmerman murdered this kid, but you wouldn't know that watching most T.V. stations.

So your obviously biased. You don't have your facts straight.
1. It doesn't mean **** what is in trayvon martins history,Zimmerman wouldn't have known at the time he decided to run after him. The relevant thing that would matter is that if he had a history of violence which he didn't.
2. I'm sorry that a couple scratches would make you run home crying to mommy,but that is what they were. Here's a little secret,cuts on the face will bleed more than any other part of the body.
3. Had trayvon lived Zimmerman would be signing a plea deal,let's not forget Zimmerman was the aggressor. If he were truly scared for his life he should've stayed in the truck. TBH, I'm still trying to figure out what is so scary about a can of ice tea & skittles.
4. Losing a fight that you provoke/start doesn't justify pulling out a gun and killing him.
You don't like the MEs testimony,tough,those are the facts of the case.

peacepipe
07-02-2013, 10:14 PM
The medical examiner that testified today said there were wounds on Martins knuckles.
Also testified that the injuries to Zimmerman were consistent with there being one punch thrown & that the injuries were insignificant, not at all life threatening.

ant1999e
07-02-2013, 10:26 PM
Also testified that the injuries to Zimmerman were consistent with there being one punch thrown & that the injuries were insignificant, not at all life threatening.

You're obviously biased.

NUB
07-02-2013, 10:45 PM
So your obviously biased. You don't have your facts straight.
1. It doesn't mean **** what is in trayvon martins history,Zimmerman wouldn't have known at the time he decided to run after him. The relevant thing that would matter is that if he had a history of violence which he didn't.
2. I'm sorry that a couple scratches would make you run home crying to mommy,but that is what they were. Here's a little secret,cuts on the face will bleed more than any other part of the body.
3. Had trayvon lived Zimmerman would be signing a plea deal,let's not forget Zimmerman was the aggressor. If he were truly scared for his life he should've stayed in the truck. TBH, I'm still trying to figure out what is so scary about a can of ice tea & skittles.
4. Losing a fight that you provoke/start doesn't justify pulling out a gun and killing him.
You don't like the MEs testimony,tough,those are the facts of the case.

I offered evidence of Martin's past given that the case is possibly going to discuss Zimmerman's past. That is only fair, is it not?

A couple of scratches? You don't bleed from the nose and the back of the head with a couple of scratches. Being punched in the back of the head is illegal in every single combat sport because it is the most vulnerable part of the entire body. You can die by being punched, you realize that, right? People have fallen against the concrete and literally died. Although your knowledge of the human body is simple, I assure you, injuries to the back of the skull are never a joke. Also, let me remind you, getting punched by an unacquainted person is not some random fight. You don't know when the fight will end. The severity of the injuries is irrelevant. Are you going to sit there and tell me Zimmerman should have waited until his brain was mush to defend himself?

Again, if I swung a baseball at you and missed, you'd have no injuries right? Well, from your argument, I wasn't even being aggressive because you were unharmed. Your injuries were less than "insignificant", they were nonexistent! Per your idiotic world perception, only after your face has been smashed in can you defend yourself.

Also, Zimmerman was not the initiator of the fight. Getting out of your car to follow someone is not illegal, nor is it considered physically aggressive in any way whatsoever. You can't just attack someone because you're suspicious of them. This isn't a court of morals, you ignorant moron, it's a court of law. The evidence -- and this has already been conceded by the way -- is that Trayvon doubled back and ambushed Zimmerman. This makes sense as Zimmerman was attacked heading back down the route he had just walked. He ended up on the ground with Trayvon on top of him. It also corroborates the evidence of the injuries of those involved.

The medical examiner's testimony was bad and the defense attorneys pretty much walked back every single thing she said. So yes, she didn't do a good job at all. And these weren't "facts of the case." The medical examiner was there to give her opinion on the severity of the injuries. Unfortunately, she gave a particularly bad one, and then corrected herself when pressed by the defense. Any medical practitioner in the world will tell you that having your head smacked against concrete is not good. There could have been no blood at all and it still could be serious.

And let me remind everyone that this case is for 2nd degree murder. That means they have to prove malice and intent to kill. Zimmerman had Trayvon in his sights but did not shoot him. A man on the phone with the cops is probably not going to be committing murder. When the cops interrogated Zimmerman they lied and said they had footage of the incident. What did Zimmerman say? Great! Let's see it. There's not a single shred of evidence that Zimmerman had the intention to kill this kid. But, ostensibly, for some, he had so much malice that he called the cops first, let himself get beat up, and called for help for a good minute before deciding oh yeah, my intention was to kill this individual. Lunacy.

errand
07-03-2013, 02:11 AM
Sorry dumb ass, but the actual autopsy report indicates no wounds consistent with any sort of physical alternation on Martin's hands.

"According to Martin’s autopsy report, the young man died from a single gunshot wound to his chest. The autopsy will be a key piece of evidence in this trial, as both sides attempt to string together a timeline and explanation of the night for the jury. According to the report, other than the single gunshot wound, Martin had only one other injury on his body -- a small abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle."

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/10/george-zimmerman-murder-trayvon-martin-autopsy


you are the dumbass that said there was no wound to his hand..... an abrasion is a wound.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 05:30 AM
Also testified that the injuries to Zimmerman were consistent with there being one punch thrown & that the injuries were insignificant, not at all life threatening.

Yes but she also admitted she owes her job to the lady whose office is running the prosecution and invetigation of zimmerman. Then she also admitted it could be more then one punch and it was only her opinion.

The defense will call their own medical experts and the testimony will not be as damaging after that.

BroncoInferno
07-03-2013, 06:57 AM
He's the reality. Let's say Trayvon Martin were an armed 35 year old black man who ignored a 911 dispatcher and unjustly pursued an unarmed, teenaged Zimmerman, who was doing nothing more than walking home after buying a tea and some Skittles. Then the young Zimmerman, understandably feeling threatened by a perfect stranger following and harassing him for no reason, defends himself and kicks the older, armed Martin's ass. Martin then shoots and kills Zimmerman. errand, Garcia, et al wouldn't be defending Martin as having acted in self-defense then. No....they'd be telling us what a thug Martin is and demanding he be thrown under the jail. They'll deny it. They may even believe it. But they would.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 07:07 AM
You didn't give the race of the teenager but changed assailant to black. Why is that?

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 07:08 AM
the facts the same regardless of race. It's hard for minorities to accept that because they have a chip on their shoulder. The country though bends over backwards for blacks to suggest otherwise is a joke.

BroncoInferno
07-03-2013, 07:09 AM
You didn't give the race of the teenager but changed assailant to black. Why is that?

Same as the real Zimmerman. Point is, not a "thuggish" black kid in a hoodie and baggy pants.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 07:11 AM
Saying how it would be a big deal if races were reversed is a joke, it's only a big deal because the kid was young. Race doesn't matter IMO.

This is about an adult who shot a kid that was almost a man. That is why its big news. And because a concealed gun was involved which media loves right now.

BroncoInferno
07-03-2013, 07:13 AM
the facts the same regardless of race.

You're correct. It's clear (or should be) either way that the kid was the one in "self-defense" mode, and that the adult was the armed aggressor. The variance comes in the interpretation when the roles are switched around.

It's hard for minorities to accept that because they have a chip on their shoulder. The country though bends over backwards for blacks to suggest otherwise is a joke.

LOL You really believe that, don't you?

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 07:18 AM
Same as the real Zimmerman. Point is, not a "thuggish" black kid in a hoodie and baggy pants.

You don't think people describe a mexican dressed same way as thuggish? Or even a white dude?

So a black neighborhood watch volunteer is black, has a gun, and is coming home from grocery store. He has never hurt anyone before and is basically a decent citizen on the record. He is driving home in the rain and sees a person in a hoody he desribes as white, baggy pants, and seems to be casing homes. He calls the police and from that point on we know the story.

First off I find it hard to believe anyone who calls the police, is neighborhood watch, is out to do anything but stop crime in his neighborhood. So no I don't see an intent to profile the kid in your scenario because he was white. It would still be the same thing only Obama would not have brought it up.

BroncoInferno
07-03-2013, 07:22 AM
You don't think people describe a mexican dressed same way as thuggish? Or even a white dude?

So a black neighborhood watch volunteer is black, has a gun, and is coming home from grocery store. He has never hurt anyone before and is basically a decent citizen on the record. He is driving home in the rain and sees a person in a hoody he desribes as white, baggy pants, and seems to be casing homes. He calls the police and from that point on we know the story.

First off I find it hard to believe anyone who calls the police, is neighborhood watch, is out to do anything but stop crime in his neighborhood. So no I don't see an intent to profile the kid in your scenario because he was white. It would still be the same thing only Obama would not have brought it up.

It's easy to claim that would be your interpretation because that's not really what happened. And maybe you would react the same. But I do not buy for one second that it would not have changed the overall reaction to the story. A black shooter with a non-black victim in the same set of circumstances would already be under the jail, no controversy, no 24 hour news coverage, no questions asked.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 07:25 AM
You kidding just speak one racist word as a white person and your job or career probably over with. They made it in calif so hate crime lawsuits if you lose you have to pay the victims atty fees. That law really blew up the civil rights hate crime lawsuits.

I'm not going to lie I have found a few of them for the firm and they paid off well. In one a gay friend I know was beaten in what was a fight like most others. But at the end when my friend lost the other person uttered ****ing ****** and kicked him one more time. Uh oh hate crime cha ching. But it doesn't work as well when the victim is white. The police do not want to ever say black on white crime is a hate crime. Why? because there is too much of it and would swamp the system because of all the hate crime legislation.

To suggest govt has done a lot to try and level the playing field is crazy inferno. You will never stamp out racism.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 07:28 AM
It's easy to claim that would be your interpretation because that's not really what happened. And maybe you would react the same. But I do not buy for one second that it would not have changed the overall reaction to the story. A black shooter with a non-black victim in the same set of circumstances would already be under the jail, no controversy, no 24 hour news coverage, no questions asked.

To a racist white person inferno it would be what do I ****ing care. A dead black dude and a mexican who shot him. Give the mexican award, life in prison. 2 less minorities for us to deal with. No white people involved but like Bush we get blamed for everything. How do you think it feels to be white, basically try and be a good person and never deny any other race their rights, but then still be made to feel guilty all the time?

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 07:30 AM
I agree with you though had the kid not been trashed as a thief, thug, pot smoking school ditcher who seemed to be embracing thug life maybe the dude would already be in prison. He wasn't just black though he had some extra baggage and maybe that has swayed white America.

Arkie
07-03-2013, 12:58 PM
The judge could totally throw this case out if it wasn't a nationally televised circus right now.

http://rollingout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/george-zimmerman-face-1.jpg

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/05/17/zimmerman6_620x412.jpg

Had Trayvon lived, he would have been charged with assault and battery. Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of the car and followed, but that's totally irrelevant. His head was being smashed into the concrete and he chose to defend himself in the best way possible. End of story. I cannot believe the absurdity this case has brought out of some people. I just watched a prosecutor say if they were given those pictures as a case, they would not press assault and battery. Is everyone out of their minds? In what looney tune world do we live in where injuries like that are used against the victim? In what looney tune world does the man who has zero evidence of racism in his life, but in fact has a history of helping his community including its black population, gets labeled a racist while the kid who literally described him using a racial epithet gets totally ignored? I'm surprised the prosecution thinks they should bring up Zimmerman's past, which has zero value to the case. All it's going to do is open another can of worms in Martin's own past. A past that shows him flashing guns, gangsigns, weed, and everything else that would signify the sort of person who would ambush and beat a man.

I was amazed in every sense of the word by the medical examiner's statements and the direction the prosecutor took with them. These injuries aren't severe, therefore ... what? It doesn't matter! If I took a swing at you with a baseball bat and missed, would you have any injuries at all? Nope! But would you feel threatened and perhaps compelled to defend yourself? Of course. This is such a low-point for American media, television, the justice system, racial tensions, all of it. Beyond silly. And much of the media's obfuscation of the facts is going to be directly culpable for the inevitable riots and violence that will follow a not guilty verdict. There's truly not a single piece of evidence one could use to say Zimmerman murdered this kid, but you wouldn't know that watching most T.V. stations.

Damn. If Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin, then he should have done it before getting his ass kicked. Martin probably went for the gun too.

peacepipe
07-03-2013, 02:44 PM
Judge allowed the prosecution to present evidence of zimmermans studies. Zimmerman stated in an interview with Sean hannity that he didn't know the SYG law,but it turns out he was lying. He took a criminal Justice course in which SYG was part of the course and thoroughly discussed.

Fedaykin
07-03-2013, 04:53 PM
you are the dumbass that said there was no wound to his hand..... an abrasion is a wound.


LMAO A little scratch on his ring finger (not his knuckle) doesn't jive with the claim he was pummeling Zimmerman. Like the ME said, it's something someone might get from a single (****ty) punch -- or just as likely from something entirely unrelated.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 11:04 PM
Judge allowed the prosecution to present evidence of zimmermans studies. Zimmerman stated in an interview with Sean hannity that he didn't know the SYG law,but it turns out he was lying. He took a criminal Justice course in which SYG was part of the course and thoroughly discussed.

Yeah but the teacher said they only talked about it in class. The defense will have to find other students in the class to testify they also don't remember discussing it. If not its damaging and they would have to come up with why he didn't remember. But the teacher didn't seem to mention any test questions or actually assignments on it so that seems to be doable. If he had proof of lesson plans on it that would be worst.

For sure though there are some things that show Zimmerman lied about a few things.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 11:06 PM
Judge allowed the prosecution to present evidence of zimmermans studies. Zimmerman stated in an interview with Sean hannity that he didn't know the SYG law,but it turns out he was lying. He took a criminal Justice course in which SYG was part of the course and thoroughly discussed.

That's like what i would do. Go through school records, find everyone in the class with him and try to interview all of them. Find others who took same teacher and see how many remember how many don't. Hopefully you find some who don't remember, who aren't killers lol.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 11:12 PM
One time we had a case where the one witness was a maid from Costa Rica that had since mysteriously went back to Costa Rica. We really needed to depose her because it was an elevator case which are big money. The plaintiff was saying she went to walk out of elevator but it didn't stop at floor, it opened 1 foot above and she fell out of elevator breaking her hip in 2 spots. Our elevator expert testified he thinks that could only happen if person was using the emergency stop which this lady was. She was with maid though and since she knew they sent her home.

Well bad news for them my cousin is a hand doctor in Costa Rica and he helped me find her. We flew her back to the USA, deposed her, won a defense verdict.

One reason the proscution puts on such a good case is they always have lots of resources to depose and find everyone who is a witness. That was the case where the attorneys at the office started to love me because i will do anything to find a witness and get them to a deposition.

When the witnesses live in the hood and have no phone or address i am the only paralegal/investigator willing to go to compton and start showing the brothers and homies pictures to find the guy. My trick is I bring gift cards to hand out to people to help out.

cutthemdown
07-03-2013, 11:14 PM
So peace it won't be too hard to find other students who may not remember covering that. Reasonable doubt. But if every student starts saying yeah we talked about that a lot Zimmerman takes a significant hit to his credibility. The defense would need some new plan to deal with it.

NUB
07-03-2013, 11:37 PM
It was raining that night, as stated by every witness that was present. They didn't even find Zimmerman's fingerprints on a gun he fired. Witnesses have already stated that the individual later identified as Trayvon was the man on top throwing punches. Had Zimmerman inflicted injuries on himself, as some of you appear to be insinuating, the police would've known. They're not exactly strangers to those sorts of shenanigans and not a single person in the case thus far has seriously suggested it for that reason.

Zimmerman being forgetful or lying about his studies might sour his credibility, but it's not something you convict second degree murder for. It's a horse and pony show for the prosecution. It would work, certainly, if every witness they'd brought up so far hadn't blown up in their face. Unfortunately for the prosecution, and as was stated by the police investigators a year ago, all the witnesses and evidence corroborate Zimmerman's side of the story.

peacepipe
07-04-2013, 07:41 AM
Yeah but the teacher said they only talked about it in class. The defense will have to find other students in the class to testify they also don't remember discussing it. If not its damaging and they would have to come up with why he didn't remember. But the teacher didn't seem to mention any test questions or actually assignments on it so that seems to be doable. If he had proof of lesson plans on it that would be worst.

For sure though there are some things that show Zimmerman lied about a few things.

You're trying make excuses. Zimmerman flat out lied, he aced the course and as the teacher noted was one of the better students. Test questions? Assignments? Not necessary, you got the actual teacher there. The jury watched Zimmerman on tape,say very clearly,no I never heard of SYG.

cutthemdown
07-04-2013, 09:09 AM
You're trying make excuses. Zimmerman flat out lied, he aced the course and as the teacher noted was one of the better students. Test questions? Assignments? Not necessary, you got the actual teacher there. The jury watched Zimmerman on tape,say very clearly,no I never heard of SYG.

I look at it diffrerent because I have seen a lot of trials peace. If you don't think the defense has other students ready to testify they also don't remember discussing it you are crazy. Maybe the defense won't find any I don't know but it would be powerful rebuttal. The teacher had 0 records of talking about it and it wasn't in the book from what i have read on another site. No lesson plan on it, not in the book, not written in any tests. You fight that testimoney by finding other students who also don't remember it. This is what my job is.

cutthemdown
07-04-2013, 09:11 AM
You're trying make excuses. Zimmerman flat out lied, he aced the course and as the teacher noted was one of the better students. Test questions? Assignments? Not necessary, you got the actual teacher there. The jury watched Zimmerman on tape,say very clearly,no I never heard of SYG.

And that all a trial is. Evidence and excuses. He better have an excuse for this in the form of another students testimoney they don't remember talking about it either. If not it does point to Zimmerman lying about it. In that case they would have to explain it away some other way. Soon we will see the character assination of Trayvon and maybe even some of the prosecutions witnesses. It ain't over by a long shot.

cutthemdown
07-04-2013, 09:13 AM
I bet paralegals right now scrambling through lists of students who took that class with him if they didn't already. Probably already knew this was going to happen.

cutthemdown
07-04-2013, 09:14 AM
Now you know why if you are ever in trouble, don't give a statement to police, don't talk, just say you are too shook up to get thoughts straight and want to speak with your attorney. Even if you are 100% innocent talking to the police and giving statements is never in your best interests.

hell claim chest pains and make them take you to the hospital, anything but give statements and answer questions. Just don't do it!

peacepipe
07-04-2013, 09:25 AM
And that all a trial is. Evidence and excuses. He better have an excuse for this in the form of another students testimoney they don't remember talking about it either. If not it does point to Zimmerman lying about it. In that case they would have to explain it away some other way. Soon we will see the character assination of Trayvon and maybe even some of the prosecutions witnesses. It ain't over by a long shot.

Nobody's going buy the idea that he forgot what he learned in a class he aced. You're kidding yourself. If Zimmerman,and it would still be a big if, had failed the class,then you would have a case to be made that he forgot. Unfortunately, he aced it, no one on that jury is going to believe he forgot what he learned in a class he aced.

cutthemdown
07-04-2013, 09:32 AM
Nobody's going buy the idea that he forgot what he learned in a class he aced. You're kidding yourself. If Zimmerman,and it would still be a big if, had failed the class,then you would have a case to be made that he forgot. Unfortunately, he aced it, no one on that jury is going to believe he forgot what he learned in a class he aced.

So if another student who got a B said you know I don't remember us talking about that. I maybe do one time but I had 5 other classes and it was awhile ago. That would not sway you at all? Trust me I know what I am talking about. if he learned it in the class why didn't teacher put it in a test or some classwork. He only said they talked about it. Sorry but any good atty will try and deal with this by finding even one other student who doesn't remember.

cutthemdown
07-04-2013, 09:33 AM
Hell I don't remember tons of stuff from school we probably talked about. Not a big deal.

Rohirrim
07-04-2013, 10:37 AM
Hell I don't remember tons of stuff from school we probably talked about. Not a big deal.

LOL No ****, Sherlock.

Fedaykin
07-04-2013, 11:27 AM
I bet actual lawyers are directing their lackeys to go through lists of students who took that class with him if they didn't already. Probably already knew this was going to happen.

FYP

peacepipe
07-04-2013, 12:32 PM
Everyone remembers what they took seriously. It wasn't as if the subject was brought up once in passing,it was discussed thoroughly and on multiple times during the time he was in class. This was a class GZ took specifically because of his interest in law enforcement. They're not going to find anyone that forgot everything taught in that class.

Rohirrim
07-04-2013, 02:08 PM
I never saw those pics of Zimmerman after the fact. Are those for real? If I'm on the jury and see those, I acquit.

cutthemdown
07-04-2013, 06:12 PM
those pics are real but not sure they are evidence in the trial yet Rho.

peacepipe
07-04-2013, 06:22 PM
The jury has seen the pics,but also explained how they look a lot worse than what they are.

errand
07-04-2013, 06:24 PM
Unfortunately for the prosecution, and as was stated by the police investigators a year ago, all the witnesses and evidence corroborate Zimmerman's side of the story.

This is something that these clowns claiming Zimmerman is some cum stain, etc have still not been able to get around.

errand
07-04-2013, 06:29 PM
The jury has seen the pics,but also explained how they look a lot worse than what they are.

doesn't matter if they were not as bad as they appear to be....what matters is Zimmerman believed his life was in danger......and unless the law states that someone else must make the determination of when your life is in danger, he'll be acquitted

kappys
07-04-2013, 07:09 PM
The jury has seen the pics,but also explained how they look a lot worse than what they are.

How do they look worse than they are?

cutthemdown
07-04-2013, 07:35 PM
How do they look worse than they are?

hell even a small cut can leave what looks to be a lot of blood. Still though it's enough damage where his story Martin attacked him when he was trying to follow him and see what he was doing is plausible.

kappys
07-04-2013, 09:22 PM
hell even a small cut can leave what looks to be a lot of blood. Still though it's enough damage where his story Martin attacked him when he was trying to follow him and see what he was doing is plausible.


Hasn't just about everybody had a small cut and seen it bleed a lot more than they expected? I'm just curious what the prosecutors argued to make it sound like the injuries were neglibible or whatever. I have tended to follow the headlines but haven't bothered watching any of the trial.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 07:38 AM
Hasn't just about everybody had a small cut and seen it bleed a lot more than they expected? I'm just curious what the prosecutors argued to make it sound like the injuries were neglibible or whatever. I have tended to follow the headlines but haven't bothered watching any of the trial.

The medical examiner essentially made the argument for him,testifying that the cuts were really insignificant and also that the cuts were consistent with just one punch being thrown.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 07:45 AM
How do they look worse than they are?

The jury not only saw those pics but what also the pics once Zimmerman was cleaned up, the cuts are really small and at the tip of the nose. They are barely noticeable.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 07:51 AM
doesn't matter if they were not as bad as they appear to be....what matters is Zimmerman believed his life was in danger......and unless the law states that someone else must make the determination of when your life is in danger, he'll be acquitted

That only matters if a jury believes his story. The defense has their side of the story and the prosecution has theirs,and the end of the day a jury is going to decide whether Zimmerman really feared for his life. Just cause you"claim" that your life was in danger doesn't make it true.

kappys
07-05-2013, 11:21 AM
Strange argument from an ME I would say - the injuries could certainly be the result of one punch, or of multiple punches. It is really tough to say in these situations, usually not very important anyways.

when I read the headline I feel like it is coming down to 2 scenarios - I know I may have some of the details wrong.

1) Zimmerman confronts Martin, ie. "what are you doing" - Martin tells him to f off, Zimmerman gets physically confrontational/up in his face, Martin feels physically threatened and strikes him --> scuffle --> Martin shot dead. In this scenario I believe Zimmerman is guilty - after all Martin has equal recourse to stand my ground laws and one can not initiate a physical confrontation that could be easily avoided and claim self defense IMO.

2) Zimmerman confronts Martin, ie. "what are you doing" - Martin tells him to f off, Zimmerman tells him he is calling the cops or something to that effect and backs off or walks away - Martin then attacks Zimmerman despite the fact that Martin is not being physically threatened and George shoots him. This gets Zimmerman off IMO under the make my day law.

I'm curious which side will come through though in the end I suspect both will make good cases leading to reasonable doubt or a hung jury(the latter sounding the most likely)

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 11:34 AM
The medical examiner was pro prosecution but the defense will call their own medical experts to testify it was from multiple punches.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 11:36 AM
no way that one punch IMO because the lip cut and the swollen nose seem like different impact points to me. More then likely Trayvon landed 2-5 punches because witnesses saw him throwing more then 1 punch and the damage looks like more then 1 punch.

Arkie
07-05-2013, 11:46 AM
Strange argument from an ME I would say - the injuries could certainly be the result of one punch, or of multiple punches. It is really tough to say in these situations, usually not very important anyways.

when I read the headline I feel like it is coming down to 2 scenarios - I know I may have some of the details wrong.

1) Zimmerman confronts Martin, ie. "what are you doing" - Martin tells him to f off, Zimmerman gets physically confrontational/up in his face, Martin feels physically threatened and strikes him --> scuffle --> Martin shot dead. In this scenario I believe Zimmerman is guilty - after all Martin has equal recourse to stand my ground laws and one can not initiate a physical confrontation that could be easily avoided and claim self defense IMO.

2) Zimmerman confronts Martin, ie. "what are you doing" - Martin tells him to f off, Zimmerman tells him he is calling the cops or something to that effect and backs off or walks away - Martin then attacks Zimmerman despite the fact that Martin is not being physically threatened and George shoots him. This gets Zimmerman off IMO under the make my day law.

I'm curious which side will come through though in the end I suspect both will make good cases leading to reasonable doubt or a hung jury(the latter sounding the most likely)

The first scenario is manslaughter if Zimmerman started the scuffle. There's not any proof it was premeditated. There may not be any proof who started it.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 12:15 PM
I think I would be feeling manslaughter even if it was proven Martin threw first punch. Zimmerman didn't have to follow and 911 said for him not to. IMO people with concealed permits can't be just following people playing cop. If they do and the person they shoot was just walking home from the store with no weapon they need to be punished with at least manslaughter.

Do people have any idea the chaos we would have if everyone had a concealed handgun on them? It just wouldn't work IMO.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 12:16 PM
I do think though everyone should be allowed a loaded gun in their car, and in their home. I just don't think we would be safer in a movie theater or at the mall with all of us packing .44 on our hips.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 12:24 PM
no way that one punch IMO because the lip cut and the swollen nose seem like different impact points to me. More then likely Trayvon landed 2-5 punches because witnesses saw him throwing more then 1 punch and the damage looks like more then 1 punch.

That's why you're not an expert, the ME explained and showed the jury how the injury was consistent with one punch.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 12:31 PM
The medical examiner was pro prosecution but the defense will call their own medical experts to testify it was from multiple punches.

Pro prosecution!? LOL the ME isn't pro anything.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 01:01 PM
Pro prosecution!? LOL the ME isn't pro anything.

BS the asst one today was interupting the defense examination and had to be told by judge to only speak one at a time. The first one got her job because she was appointed by the same person running the prosecution. The defense will have their own medical experts peace don't worry. They will testify there is no scientific way to say how many punches were thrown. Any doctor who says otherwise is not following scientific guidlines only giving an opinion. Then they will give their opinion that it was more then one punch.

You don't see Rho as being like me right? You see me a right wing hack but you don't see Rhohirm that way correct? Look he saw those pics and says if i was on jury i would acquit. Thats how hard it will be to get all the jurors to convict.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 01:02 PM
That's why you're not an expert, the ME explained and showed the jury how the injury was consistent with one punch.

Let me guess when the defense doctor testifies otherwise you won't considering him an expert because he's being paid to testify right? Guess what the medical examiner also paid to testify.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 01:03 PM
besides like already stated you can be in fear for your life after being knocked down, mounted, and punched even one time before you decide to use deadly force.

Rohirrim
07-05-2013, 01:11 PM
The jury has seen the pics,but also explained how they look a lot worse than what they are.

That nose is pretty messed up. Looks like it's broken in two places. It would definitely raise reasonable doubt in my mind.

Bronco Yoda
07-05-2013, 01:43 PM
WOW!

Judge won't allow the the jury to hear about Treyvon's THC level. Two people scuffle and it ends in a death and the drug levels in one persons system isn't relevant to the case?

Automatic ammo for an appeal I would think.

Fedaykin
07-05-2013, 01:54 PM
WOW!

Judge won't allow the the jury to hear about Treyvon's THC level. Two people scuffle and it ends in a death and the drug levels in one persons system isn't relevant to the case?

Automatic ammo for an appeal I would think.


Reeeefer Maaaaadnesss!!

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 02:09 PM
That nose is pretty messed up. Looks like it's broken in two places. It would definitely raise reasonable doubt in my mind.

But his nose wasn't broken,as I pointed out and as the ME pointed out, they were two minor cuts on the tip of his nose. Cuts on the face bleed considerably more than any other part of the body. There's no evidence of a broken nose being presented by the prosecution or the defense.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 02:13 PM
Let me guess when the defense doctor testifies otherwise you won't considering him an expert because he's being paid to testify right? Guess what the medical examiner also paid to testify.

The ME is paid to review the evidence whether it supports the prosecution or not. That's why there is a strict chain of custody and all in the MEs office. The ME does not work hand in hand with the prosecutor in trying a case.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 02:16 PM
WOW!

Judge won't allow the the jury to hear about Treyvon's THC level. Two people scuffle and it ends in a death and the drug levels in one persons system isn't relevant to the case?

Automatic ammo for an appeal I would think.

Does the test show when he smoked pot? Either way it's not relevant to the case.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 02:21 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/07/05/prosecutions-case-vs-zimmerman-could-wrap-today/2491275/

The prosecution has wrapped up and rested its case. Time for the defense to see if they can get Zimmerman to walk.

Bronco Yoda
07-05-2013, 02:25 PM
The EXPERT (albeit idiot) testifying witness said himself that in his opinion that this amount in his system 'could' affect him. Before he said it wasn't enough... now he's changed his mind. So... it kinda is relevant now.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 02:27 PM
They don't have enough to get him on the murder 2 charge. It's over.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 02:32 PM
Its not really relevant how long he suffered but it was a nice little jab to hit home to end the proseuction case. That and they saved the mom and brothers testimony the voice is Trayvons calling for help.

The defense will ask the brother if he is so sure it is Trayvons voice why did you have to listen 15 times? Then they will probably roll a voice expert that testifies each time a biased person listens over they are goign further and further from reality to convince themselves they are 100% correct.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 02:39 PM
Its not really relevant how long he suffered but it was a nice little jab to hit home to end the proseuction case. That and they saved the mom and brothers testimony the voice is Trayvons calling for help.

The defense will ask the brother if he is so sure it is Trayvons voice why did you have to listen 15 times? Then they will probably roll a voice expert that testifies each time a biased person listens over they are goign further and further from reality to convince themselves they are 100% correct.

That will only open the door for the prosecution to bring in their expert. Also trayvons mother testified she only had to hear the tape once to know it was trayvon crying for help.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 02:45 PM
That will only open the door for the prosecution to bring in their expert. Also trayvons mother testified she only had to hear the tape once to know it was trayvon crying for help.

The expert already tesitfied to that I think. He said family members not that accurate because they have a bias. So really its not that damaging and doesn't prove Zimmermans force rises to the level of murder 2. Murder 2 requires evil intent or hatred etc. It's going to be very tough for the jury IMO to convict.

Smiling Assassin27
07-05-2013, 02:48 PM
It's going to be very tough for the jury IMO to convict.


This.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 02:59 PM
The expert already tesitfied to that I think. He said family members not that accurate because they have a bias. So really its not that damaging and doesn't prove Zimmermans force rises to the level of murder 2. Murder 2 requires evil intent or hatred etc. It's going to be very tough for the jury IMO to convict.

The only people that testified were trayvons mother,brother and the guy who did the autopsy. I don't believe any expert testified to that affect today,especially since the defense hasn't called any witnesses/experts yet.

Rohirrim
07-05-2013, 03:57 PM
But his nose wasn't broken,as I pointed out and as the ME pointed out, they were two minor cuts on the tip of his nose. Cuts on the face bleed considerably more than any other part of the body. There's no evidence of a broken nose being presented by the prosecution or the defense.

It sure looks busted in that photo. My personal bias would be to convict Zimmerman just because he's a neighborhood watch guy who was told by police not to intervene, but he intervened anyway and ended up shooting an unarmed teenager. Then, you hear there was some kind of fight, but don't know who was the aggressor. Then, you find out that Trayvon didn't have any injuries (other than the bullet hole) and Zimmerman did.

I'm not saying that's any kind of justification or absolution of guilt, but it does raise reasonable doubt. I don't know what they do in Florida as far as juries finding guilt on lesser charges, and I don't know what charge Zimmerman is being tried on (I don't usually pay much attention to these nationally sensationalized cases), but I wouldn't be surprised if he either gets off completely, or is found guilty of some lesser charge.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 05:59 PM
Rho to convict on murder 2 you have to show the person acted in hatred or with evil intent.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 06:00 PM
That will only open the door for the prosecution to bring in their expert. Also trayvons mother testified she only had to hear the tape once to know it was trayvon crying for help.

oops Zimmermans mom says the same thing and so does his uncle who is a cop. See? not as easy as you think.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 06:03 PM
The only people that testified were trayvons mother,brother and the guy who did the autopsy. I don't believe any expert testified to that affect today,especially since the defense hasn't called any witnesses/experts yet.

I thought you were following this and so informed. An expert did testify. Just not the one who wanted to say it was Trayvon on the tape. An expert did testify already.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591766-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-voice-expert-testifies-during-second-week-of-testimony/

He testified pretrial and was also called as a prosecution witness in the trial already.

peacepipe
07-05-2013, 06:20 PM
I thought you were following this and so informed. An expert did testify. Just not the one who wanted to say it was Trayvon on the tape. An expert did testify already.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591766-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-voice-expert-testifies-during-second-week-of-testimony/

He testified pretrial and was also called as a prosecution witness in the trial already.

I was referring to today but I'm glad you posted that cause it proves my point, he testified that someone familiar with trayvon would know if it was trayvon yelling for help. I would think that his mother & brother would be 2 people familiar with trayvon.

kappys
07-05-2013, 06:22 PM
Rho to convict on murder 2 you have to show the person acted in hatred or with evil intent.

According to Wikipedia:

Voluntary manslaughter (often referred to as third degree murder) sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." Both this and second degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.[7]

I know the exact laws vary considerably from state to state but it would seem that murder would certainly be applicable here under the bar fight type of description provided above.

As for the face I have seen a lot of people who have gotten punched in the face and the degree of injuries varies immensely - sometimes people are stomped on and they are barely injured, other times they get a single punch and have major facial injuries requiring reconstruction.

The nose in the pictures is swollen but no way to tell if it is broken from the shots posted on this threat. I absolutely believe it could have been one punch, but it also could have been a few punched.

errand
07-05-2013, 06:32 PM
That only matters if a jury believes his story. The defense has their side of the story and the prosecution has theirs,and the end of the day a jury is going to decide whether Zimmerman really feared for his life. Just cause you"claim" that your life was in danger doesn't make it true.

...and yet the witnesses have basically gave the same story that Zimmerman has.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 06:47 PM
According to Wikipedia:

Voluntary manslaughter (often referred to as third degree murder) sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." Both this and second degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.[7]

I know the exact laws vary considerably from state to state but it would seem that murder would certainly be applicable here under the bar fight type of description provided above.

As for the face I have seen a lot of people who have gotten punched in the face and the degree of injuries varies immensely - sometimes people are stomped on and they are barely injured, other times they get a single punch and have major facial injuries requiring reconstruction.

The nose in the pictures is swollen but no way to tell if it is broken from the shots posted on this threat. I absolutely believe it could have been one punch, but it also could have been a few punched.

Flordia law for murder 11 the jury instructions say the person had to act out of hatred, malice, or evil intent. Thats fla law.

cutthemdown
07-05-2013, 06:49 PM
I was referring to today but I'm glad you posted that cause it proves my point, he testified that someone familiar with trayvon would know if it was trayvon yelling for help. I would think that his mother & brother would be 2 people familiar with trayvon.

What about Zimmermans mother would she know her son?

kappys
07-05-2013, 06:51 PM
Flordia law for murder 11 the jury instructions say the person had to act out of hatred, malice, or evil intent. Thats fla law.

Of course if you believe that George only profiled Martin because he was black that might cover the hatred/malice aspect.

errand
07-05-2013, 06:58 PM
I think I would be feeling manslaughter even if it was proven Martin threw first punch.

If Martin assaulted Zimmerman, then Zimmerman had the right to defend himself


Zimmerman didn't have to follow and 911 said for him not to. IMO people with concealed permits can't be just following people playing cop. If they do and the person they shoot was just walking home from the store with no weapon they need to be punished with at least manslaughter.


You're right, he didn't have to follow Trayvon, but as the NWP captain he was within his rights to do so. And let's keep in mind that 911 operators generally aren't police officers...they are civilian and quite frankly aren't the boss of anyone. They have no idea what's going on because they're not there. Their job is to gather information for the cops, who, what and where.

And because we've seen the injuries to Zimmerman, Trayvon evidently wasn't "just walking home from the store" when he was shot. He was punching Zimmerman and smacking his head into a concrete sidewalk.

Once Trayvon turned around and assaulted Zimmerman he is no longer "just some kid walking home from the store"

Do people have any idea the chaos we would have if everyone had a concealed handgun on them? It just wouldn't work IMO.

If you don't want a gun, don't buy one.....I carry a gun because when seconds count the cops are minutes away.





in bold

errand
07-05-2013, 07:21 PM
But his nose wasn't broken,as I pointed out and as the ME pointed out, they were two minor cuts on the tip of his nose. Cuts on the face bleed considerably more than any other part of the body. There's no evidence of a broken nose being presented by the prosecution or the defense.

What difference does it make if his nose was broken or not?

Someone else posted if I swing at your head with a bat, and you duck and I miss hitting you....would you still believe that your life was in danger despite not having any injuries at all?

errand
07-05-2013, 07:24 PM
The EXPERT (albeit idiot) testifying witness said himself that in his opinion that this amount in his system 'could' affect him. Before he said it wasn't enough... now he's changed his mind. So... it kinda is relevant now.

He's not the only one who has since changed his mind.....when interviewed about who's voice was screaming for help Trayvon's brother said he didn't know and couldn't say who it was screaming....then changed his story once he got on the stand.

Bronco Yoda
07-05-2013, 07:24 PM
The prosecution does not have near enough for a Murder 2 conviction. They've lost ehe case already before the defense even started.

They should have gone for a lesser charge if they really wanted a conviction.

errand
07-05-2013, 07:28 PM
That will only open the door for the prosecution to bring in their expert. Also trayvons mother testified she only had to hear the tape once to know it was trayvon crying for help.

Yes, she said she only heard it once.....but I'm thinking the reason the defense asked that question was because they probably have a witness who'll testify that she heard it numerous times.