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View Full Version : Syrian war is escalating. Syrian forces and Hezzbolah attack border town together in heavy fighting


cutthemdown
05-20-2013, 01:55 AM
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-200513.html

ISTANBUL- Bolstered by Russia, Iran and regional Shiite forces, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces have been making steady gains against the rebels over the past weeks. They are by no means about to win the civil war, which has claimed more than 90,000 lives in just over two years (not least because much of northern Syria remains in opposition hands), but if a peace push next month, sponsored jointly by the United States and Russia, fails, it is very likely that the chaos will grow further and perhaps spill into neighboring countries

On Sunday, units of the Syrian army and the Lebanese Hezbollah launched an attack on the town of Qusayr near the Lebanese



border, resulting in what Reuters described as "the heaviest fighting yet involving [the] Lebanese armed group". As of Sunday night, it appeared that the fall of the town, which straddles a major smuggling route contested by the rebels and Hezbollah, would only be a matter of days or hours.

Ok so basically now its Lebanon and Syria, backed be Russia and Iran battling Al Queda rebels and other islamic extremists backed I guess by the USA and NATO? Are we backing them? aren't we? does anyone really know? But with the way this govt handled Egypt and Libya you wonder if they do anything or just sit back and watch the chaos unfold. Is it a genius plan or is Obama playing with a dangerous foreign policy?

90 thousand dead. When Isreal bombs are the helping assad or the rebels or themselves? Its possible they fear the rebels more. At least with Hezzbollah they know how to make deals with. You know take a prisoner, we give you some of ours and we call it even. Then we fire some missiles here and there. But with Assad gone who knows what crazy govt would take over.

What a friggin mess. Funny thinking back to one of my favorite movies THE BEST OF TIMES with Kurt Russel and Robin Williams. When they try and say something smart out to dinner with wives by saying. Wow the middle east. What a mess! LOL its always a ****ing mess! I guess a peace effort will be made but its obvious without bigtime help from the USA this thing is not going to end well for the rebels. Not with the Soviets....ERRRRRRR I mean the Russians stepping up and putting their reputation on the line.

If I was Putin I would look at it this way. Unless we save Assad we can't influence other 2 bit dictators to side with Russian influence. If he does save them he can tell other leader see I will stand up to the Americans and NATO. Egypt and Libya not aligned close with us and they paid the price. Syria chose wisely and Assad strengthens his grip. The Alwawites are saved by the communists......er I mean the Russians.

Rohirrim
05-20-2013, 07:18 AM
It's a civil war. None of our business. We should try to provide humanitarian aid, which appears to be what we are doing, along with the rest of the UN. I was listening to a discussion among retired military leaders yesterday who agreed that it is basically an unwinnable situation and the only resolution will be a political one. What are we, the global maid service? Every mess that happens is not ours to clean up. Hell, we've spent the last hundred years trying to clean up the global messes of the Europeans.

cutthemdown
05-20-2013, 12:39 PM
It's a civil war. None of our business. We should try to provide humanitarian aid, which appears to be what we are doing, along with the rest of the UN. I was listening to a discussion among retired military leaders yesterday who agreed that it is basically an unwinnable situation and the only resolution will be a political one. What are we, the global maid service? Every mess that happens is not ours to clean up. Hell, we've spent the last hundred years trying to clean up the global messes of the Europeans.

When other countries start fighting along side its becoming far more then just a civil war. If Israel gets pulled in it's far more then just a civil war.

Rohirrim
05-20-2013, 05:32 PM
Well, let's hope the final battle doesn't take place at Tel Megiddo. ;D

Requiem
05-20-2013, 05:32 PM
Why ain't nobody talking Nigeria?

cutthemdown
05-20-2013, 05:34 PM
Well, let's hope the final battle doesn't take place at Tel Megiddo. ;D

No ****

cutthemdown
05-20-2013, 05:36 PM
Why ain't nobody talking Nigeria?

Nobody cares about Africa I guess. The powers in the area don't seem powerfull enough to start a war that spreads into US concerns? Really I haven't a clue except those guesses? Also unless the journalists do stories on the war and hammer it to us we don't care.

cutthemdown
05-20-2013, 05:39 PM
If Obama was smart he would just end all the scandals by saying they are using chemical weapons and then attack. Hell i bet that is the plan now and soon we will be attacking Syria.

elsid13
05-21-2013, 03:41 AM
Why ain't nobody talking Nigeria?

Because it not a sexy war like in those in ME for the media. Both events are important.

ant1999e
05-22-2013, 02:19 PM
It's a civil war. None of our business. We should try to provide humanitarian aid, which appears to be what we are doing, along with the rest of the UN. I was listening to a discussion among retired military leaders yesterday who agreed that it is basically an unwinnable situation and the only resolution will be a political one. What are we, the global maid service? Every mess that happens is not ours to clean up. Hell, we've spent the last hundred years trying to clean up the global messes of the Europeans.

A Senate panel voted overwhelmingly on Tuesday to send weapons to rebels fighting Syria's government, but it was not clear who would get the arms even if the bill succeeds, as Washington struggles to deal with its response to the conflict.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/22/us-syria-crisis-usa-idUSBRE94K1AG20130522

mhgaffney
05-22-2013, 03:12 PM
Rand Paul: My Colleagues Just Voted to Arm the Allies of al Qaeda

By John Hudson

May 22, 2013 "Information Clearing House" -"Foreign Policy" - Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) blasted members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Tuesday, which voted overwhelmingly to arm elements of the Syrian opposition in a bill co-sponsored by Sen. Robert Menendez (D-NJ) and Sen. Bob Corker (R-TN). "This is an important moment," Paul said, addressing his Senate colleagues. "You will be funding, today, the allies of al Qaeda. It's an irony you cannot overcome."

The legislation, which would authorize the shipment of arms and military training to rebels "that have gone through a thorough vetting process," passed in a bipartisan 15-3 vote. Paul offered an amendment that would strike the bill's weapons provision, but it was rejected along with another Paul amendment ruling out the authorization of the use of military force in Syria. (Connecticut Democrat Chris Murphy was the only senator to join Paul in support of the weapons amendment.)

Paul's two amendments constituted his first legislative act to soften the Menendez-Corker bill, which earned the support of powerful lawmakers from Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) to Barbara Boxer (D-CA) to Marco Rubio (R-FL) -- all of whom rejected Paul's allegations. "I don't think any member of this committee would vote for anything we thought was going to arm al Qaeda," said Rubio. "Al Qaeda, unfortunately, is well-armed," added Menendez. "That is the present reality in Syria."

The dispute centers on the issue of whether the United States could properly vet Syrian rebels so that weapons and body armor would not fall into the hands of extremist groups, such as the al Qaeda-aligned al-Nusra Front. The Pentagon's top brass has vacillated about whether it's logistically possible to keep track of weapons as they enter a conflict involving a complex mix of opposition groups, as the new bill would require.

Corker added that not arming rebel groups such as the more moderate Free Syrian Army would ensure the dominance of the better-equipped al-Nusra Front. Paul responded, saying, "It's impossible to know who our friends are ... I know everyone here wants to do the right thing, but I think it's a rush to war."

To get a sense of how adamant the committee is to authorize more aggressive intervention in Syria, an amendment offered by Sen. Tom Udall (D-NM) to limit the types of weapons delivered to rebels was forcefully rejected as well. "The senator from New Mexico wants to use shotguns against SCUD missiles," McCain said dismissively.

The bill now includes an amendment by Sen. Bob Casey (D-PA), that would "require the administration to impose sanctions on entities that provide surface-to-surface or surface-to-air missiles, like the SA20s or S300s, to the Assad regime," according to a press release -- a clear reference to Russia, which has vowed in recent weeks to proceed with sales of advanced missiles that would extend the range and sophistication of the Syrian regime's anti-aircraft systems.

The Menendez-Corker bill next moves to the Senate floor, but an aide to Menendez said it was uncertain when Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, whose office did not respond to a request for comment, will take up the legislation.

Observers say the bill's chances of passing in its current form are slim, but it does increase the pressure on the administration to intervene more aggressively. As Andrew Tabler, a senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy noted earlier this month, "If you want to pressure the president into acting, it's a pretty good bill ...The last time the Hill moved on Syria was sanctions on Syrian oil in the summer of 2011. That pressured the president to move, and this could too."

All contents ©2013 The Foreign Policy Group, LLC

mhgaffney
05-22-2013, 03:15 PM
We are led by lunatics and worse...sociopaths.

cutthemdown
05-22-2013, 11:34 PM
I agree with Gaff on this one. Wow did i just say that. When will we learn that the enemy of our enemy is sometimes also our enemy.

its like we can't help ourselves if Iran and Russia are supplying the other side.

The only sane reason for this is because CIA said wow govt starting to win it could be over soon. Then Obama says hmmm we don't want that just yet lets even up the playing field with some shoulder fired missiles to thwart helicopters and armor.

cutthemdown
05-22-2013, 11:35 PM
Seriously Obama has his work cut out for him on this one. Who knows what to do. Sitting out completely could mean a larger war we get sucked into anyways. Getting involved could be worst. Who knows but with the advanced weapons Russia sending to Syria it will be tough to root out the Alawites without a no fly zone.

mhgaffney
05-23-2013, 06:13 PM
Russia Strikes Back in Syria

By Juan Cole

May 23, 2013 "Information Clearing House" -"TruthDig" - President Vladimir Putin of the Russian Federation has drawn a line in the sand over Syria, the government of which he is determined to protect from overthrow. Not since the end of the Cold War in 1991 has the Russian Bear asserted itself so forcefully beyond its borders in support of claims on great power status. In essence, Russia is attempting to play the role in Syria that France did in Algeria in the 1990s, of supporting the military government against rebels, many of them linked to political Islam. France and its allies prevailed, at the cost of some 150,000 dead. Can Putin and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad pull off the same sort of victory?

Even as Damascus pushes back against the rebels militarily, Putin has swung into action on the international and regional stages. The Russian government persuaded U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry to support an international conference aimed at a negotiated settlement. Putin upbraided Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over his country’s air attacks on Damascus. Moscow is sending sophisticated anti-aircraft batteries, anti-submarine missiles and other munitions to beleaguered Assad, and has just announced that 12 Russian warships will patrol the Mediterranean. The Russian actions have raised alarums in Tel Aviv and Washington, even as they have been praised in Damascus and Tehran.

The Syrian regime has been on a military roll in the past few weeks. It has made a bloody push into the hinterlands of Damascus, fortifying the capital. With Hezbollah support, it has assaulted the rebel-held Qusair region near northern Lebanon, an important smuggling route for the rebels and the key to the central city of Homs. The Baath government needs to keep Homs in order for Russia to resupply the capital via the Syrian port of Latakia on the Mediterranean. The Syrian government’s victories would not have been possible without Russian and Iranian help.

Regionally, a Moscow-Tehran axis has formed around Syria that is resisting Qatari and Saudi backing for the rebels. The increasing dominance of rebel fighting forces in the north by radical groups such as the al-Nusra Front, which has openly affiliated itself with al-Qaida, has resulted in a falloff of support for the revolution even in Saudi Arabia. Most Syrians who oppose the government are not radicals or even fundamentalists, but the latter have had the best record of military victories. Russian characterizations of the rebels as radical terrorists are a form of war propaganda; however, they have been effective. The Saudi and Jordanian plan to create a less radical southern opposition front at Deraa has met with a setback, since the regime recaptured that city last week. Doha and Riyadh are reeling from the Russia-backed counteroffensive.

At the same time, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov pulled off a coup two weeks ago by persuading Kerry to support the international conference on Syria, to which both the Baath government and the rebels would be invited, as a way station toward a negotiated settlement of the conflict (Russia’s holy grail). The agreement represented a climb-down for the Obama administration, which had earlier insisted that Assad leave office as a prerequisite to a resolution, language that the joint Russian-American communique issuing from the Kerry-Lavrov meeting in Moscow conspicuously avoided. Lavrov, a South Asia expert and guitar-playing poet, speaks as though what happened in Yemen, with a negotiated solution and a government of national unity, is a plausible scenario for Syria. But so much blood has been spilled in the latter that a military victory by one side or the other now seems far more likely.

When sources in the Pentagon leaked the information that explosions in Damascus on May 5 were an Israeli airstrike, Putin appears to have been livid. He tracked down Netanyahu on the prime minister’s visit to Shanghai and harangued him on the phone. The two met last week in Moscow, where Putin is alleged to have read Netanyahu the riot act. Subsequently, the Likud government leaked to The New York Times that its aim in the airstrike had been only to prevent Syrian munitions from being transferred to Hezbollah in Lebanon, not to help in overthrowing the Baath government. The Israelis were clearly attempting to avoid further provoking Moscow’s ire, and wanted to send a signal to Damascus that they would remain neutral on Syria but not on further arming of Hezbollah.

Putin, not visibly mollified by Netanyahu’s clarification, responded by announcing forcefully that he had sent to Syria Yakhont anti-ship cruise missiles and was planning to dispatch sophisticated S-300 anti-aircraft batteries. Both U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Martin Dempsey and Israeli military analysts protested the Russian shipments. Although Netanyahu went on insisting that Israel would bomb Syria at will when it suspected supplies were being sent to Hezbollah, Putin had clearly just raised the risks of such intervention.

Russia’s motives have sometimes been attributed to the profits it realizes from its arms trade with Syria, going back to the Soviet era, but that business is actually quite small. Others have suggested that Syria’s leasing to Russia of a naval base at Tartous, Russia’s only toehold on the Mediterranean, is a consideration. Rather, Russia’s support of Assad is part of its reassertion on the world stage as a great power with areas under its control. Putin wants to raise Russia from the world’s ninth- to fifth-largest capitalist economy. Smarting from the aggressive American expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe and the planting of U.S. bases in Central Asia, Moscow is determined to recover its former spheres of influence. In addition, some senior Russian military analysts see “color revolutions” as a ploy by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency to overthrow unfriendly governments and then to plunder the resulting weak states of their resources, a tactic they fear menaces Russia itself. Drawing a line at Syria, in this view, is a way of underscoring that Putin’s own neo-authoritarian regime will not go quietly.

Russia is only a 24-hour drive from Aleppo, Syria’s northernmost metropolis. Having crushed a Muslim fundamentalist uprising in Chechnya and Dagestan at the turn of the century, and having stood up a friendly Chechen state government in the aftermath, Moscow is wary of the spread of radical Muslim movements in the nearby Levant. Moreover, some 10 to 14 percent of Syrians are Christians, many of them belonging to the Eastern Orthodox branch that predominates in Russia itself. The Russian Orthodox Church, a key constituency for Putin, has opposed the overthrow of the secular Baath government, seeing it as a protector of those coreligionists.

The thinking of the Russian foreign ministry is clear from its Saturday press release on the revival of the radical Sunni insurgency in Iraq in recent weeks. Complaining about what it termed terrorist attacks in Mosul and Baghdad, the ministry’s website said, according to a translation done for the U.S. government’s Open Source Center, that “We are particularly concerned about growing sectarian tensions in Iraq, which are turning into a direct armed confrontation between radical elements in the Shi’a and Sunni communities. This is largely due to the crisis situation in neighboring Syria and the spread of terrorist activities of militants operating there.” In other words, Russia sees the Syrian revolution as dominated by al-Qaida-linked groups such as the al-Nusra Front. Moscow views the civil war as a destabilizing event with the potential for radicalizing the Middle East, which it views as its soft underbelly.

The momentum of the Syrian rebels has palpably slowed in the last month, as Putin’s riposte has stiffened the resolve in Damascus and given its military the wherewithal to regain territory. The Russian president is weaving a protective web around his client, fending off the Wahhabi winds of Muslim fundamentalism blowing from the Arabian Peninsula. He has also pushed back against opportunistic Israeli intervention, worried that it might further destabilize Damascus. At the same time, he has impressed on Washington the need for a negotiated settlement, an idea that President Obama, long skittish about sending troops into further possible Middle East quagmires, has begun to tolerate. Putin’s supply of powerful new weapons systems to Assad’s military, and his dispatch of warships from the Russian Pacific fleet through the Strait of Gibraltar into the Mediterranean, make clear that the full force of Russian military might is, if need be, at the service of its Baath client. Putin’s gambit may or may not prove successful, but he is indisputably demonstrating that the age of the sole superpower and of American unilateralism is passing in favor of a multipolar world.

Juan R.I. Cole is the Richard P. Mitchell Collegiate Professor of History at the University of Michigan. He has written extensively on modern Islamic movements in Egypt, the Persian Gulf and South Asia and has given numerous media interviews on the war on terrorism and the Iraq War. He lived in various parts of the Muslim world for nearly 10 years and continues to travel widely there. He speaks Arabic, Farsi and Urdu.

mhgaffney
05-23-2013, 06:15 PM
The real question is why the US is allowing Saudi Arabia to spread its extremist Wahhabist version of Sunni Islam by trying to topple Assad's Shi'ite regime.

Rohirrim
05-23-2013, 07:44 PM
The real question is why the US is allowing Saudi Arabia to spread its extremist Wahhabist version of Sunni Islam by trying to topple Assad's Shi'ite regime.

http://mideastposts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/saudi-arabia-oil.jpg

SoCalBronco
05-23-2013, 08:10 PM
I hope Putin succeeds on this. I'll gladly support a tyrant like Assad if it means eliminating a another oppurtunity for political Islam to take root. That is an absolute non starter. The alternative, no matter how unappealing must remain in power, at least until a secular and stable alternative can be found.

cutthemdown
05-23-2013, 08:31 PM
We should have stepped on this Arab Spring way back in Egypt. If we do help the rebels I bet it won't be enough to help them win.

Rohirrim
05-24-2013, 07:01 AM
I hope Putin succeeds on this. I'll gladly support a tyrant like Assad if it means eliminating a another oppurtunity for political Islam to take root. That is an absolute non starter. The alternative, no matter how unappealing must remain in power, at least until a secular and stable alternative can be found.

On strictly humanitarian grounds, I can't agree. For one thing, Putin is the most repugnant thug I can think of. Unfortunately, there seems to be no good alternative. Who knows what will come out of this civil war? Totally unpredictable. I can't agree with the policy of stability at all costs, though. Usually, the foundation of such a policy is simply the old dictum, "What's good for business..." Human beings have to start looking for other philosophical foundations for policy making. It's simply more greed-based thinking. I do agree that we have to exterminate religious fundamentalism. It's time to leave the Medieval world behind.

America has a hard time letting other countries decide their own fates. We need to start working on that. If we would become more energy self-sufficient, we would find that what happens in places like Syria is pretty much unimportant to us on most levels. I'm afraid we'll stick our noses in it just because Israel has such a long and successful history of dragging us into its business. We should provide humanitarian aid where possible. That's it.

I wonder when the American government is going to start nation-building in America?

Rohirrim
05-24-2013, 07:02 AM
We should have stepped on this Arab Spring way back in Egypt. If we do help the rebels I bet it won't be enough to help them win.

Ha! You just crack me up sometimes.

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 07:11 AM
Rho wants to cool the Earth but nation building sounds to hard and expensive.

elsid13
05-24-2013, 09:12 AM
We should have stepped on this Arab Spring way back in Egypt. If we do help the rebels I bet it won't be enough to help them win.

I guess freedom is only good if you live in the US or Western Nation???

It is messy but democracy is what we should be promoting everywhere and at all times. If you want less war and human abuse, then we need to continue to support the democratic process.

Requiem
05-24-2013, 09:33 AM
Slippery slope statement there, Elsid.

Rohirrim
05-24-2013, 10:15 AM
I guess freedom is only good if you live in the US or Western Nation???

It is messy but democracy is what we should be promoting everywhere and at all times. If you want less war and human abuse, then we need to continue to support the democratic process.

I think we should perfect our own democracy before we try to ship it overseas. Ours could use a major overhaul. In case you haven't noticed, we've become a corporatocracy; Of, for and by the one percent. Hosting an economy with one of the worst economic disparities in the world is a bit of a marketing problem, don't you think?

Rohirrim
05-24-2013, 10:17 AM
Rho wants to cool the Earth but nation building sounds to hard and expensive.

This is basically Assad, Iran and Hezbollah fighting the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Queda. Who should we help? Ha!

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 01:06 PM
I guess freedom is only good if you live in the US or Western Nation???

It is messy but democracy is what we should be promoting everywhere and at all times. If you want less war and human abuse, then we need to continue to support the democratic process.

Cmon Egypt doesn't have freedom or a democratic process. How is it for Christians over there? Yet Obama sends them 100's of millions of our dollars then complains he can't afford to fix a bridge that fell down.

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 01:08 PM
Egypt has more abuse now.

Requiem
05-24-2013, 01:55 PM
Despite a few tiffs as of recent, Christians and Muslims have usually gotten along in Egypt. Coptic traditions go back thousands of years.

mhgaffney
05-24-2013, 02:40 PM
On strictly humanitarian grounds, I can't agree. For one thing, Putin is the most repugnant thug I can think of. Unfortunately, there seems to be no good alternative. Who knows what will come out of this civil war? Totally unpredictable. I can't agree with the policy of stability at all costs, though. Usually, the foundation of such a policy is simply the old dictum, "What's good for business..." Human beings have to start looking for other philosophical foundations for policy making. It's simply more greed-based thinking. I do agree that we have to exterminate religious fundamentalism. It's time to leave the Medieval world behind.

America has a hard time letting other countries decide their own fates. We need to start working on that. If we would become more energy self-sufficient, we would find that what happens in places like Syria is pretty much unimportant to us on most levels. I'm afraid we'll stick our noses in it just because Israel has such a long and successful history of dragging us into its business. We should provide humanitarian aid where possible. That's it.

I wonder when the American government is going to start nation-building in America?

Putin is no worse than GW Bush. Probably a lot smarter.

You should review the 1990s -- how the west raped Russia with the approval of the drunk Yeltsin, who bombed his own Parliament.

Enter Putin just in time to restore Russian control over Russia. Despite whatever distaste you may have for him, Putin saved Russia from the western banksters.

MHG

houghtam
05-24-2013, 03:37 PM
This is basically Assad, Iran and Hezbollah fighting the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Queda. Who should we help? Ha!

Well, cut DID say that the police would need all the help they could get if a bunch of guys fanned out with assault rifles. So I suppose that means we should be shipping AR15s to everyone over there?

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 03:54 PM
Well, cut DID say that the police would need all the help they could get if a bunch of guys fanned out with assault rifles. So I suppose that means we should be shipping AR15s to everyone over there?

Just explain to them what a great life they could have managing a theater and be done with it. Just don't show anything about the prophet or they will do a terrorists errrrrr I mean a spontaneous demonstration.

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 03:55 PM
Despite a few tiffs as of recent, Christians and Muslims have usually gotten along in Egypt. Coptic traditions go back thousands of years.

It's been really bad for them since the Islamists took over. Do you even read the news?

Requiem
05-24-2013, 05:26 PM
It's been really bad for them since the Islamists took over. Do you even read the news?

My knowledge of historical and present day Egypt and the ethnic or sectarian violence that exists there dwarfs yours. Don't try and kid yourself otherwise. Play me an E blues scale ma****a!

Rohirrim
05-24-2013, 05:30 PM
Putin is no worse than GW Bush. Probably a lot smarter.

You should review the 1990s -- how the west raped Russia with the approval of the drunk Yeltsin, who bombed his own Parliament.

Enter Putin just in time to restore Russian control over Russia. Despite whatever distaste you may have for him, Putin saved Russia from the western banksters.

MHG

Ha! He "saved" Russia for himself and his old KGB cronies.

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 05:35 PM
Ha! You just crack me up sometimes.

Thanks Roh laughing and humor are one of the most important things we have. It makes me feel good to know you have a better time because of me. This doesn't mean we are dating though.

mhgaffney
05-24-2013, 05:50 PM
Ha! He "saved" Russia for himself and his old KGB cronies.

A Brookings scholar referred to the West's rape of Russia in the 1990s as "the largest theft of a nation's wealth during a short period of time in all of world history..." Words to that effect.

Just one US bank, the Bank of New York, laundered as much as $22 billion out of Russia over a period of several years.

The money laundry was set up with the blessing of the US intelligence community -- whose main goal was to insure that Russia would never rise again to challenge the US.

The laundry was part of a covert program-- probably set up by HW Bush during his presidency -- and had a number of parts. One was to support a coup against Gorby. Another was to seize western control of Russia's gas/oil wealth.

Putin was the Russian response to this covert agenda. Like him or not -- he returned control of Russia's wealth to Russia.

MHG

Rohirrim
05-24-2013, 07:02 PM
A Brookings scholar referred to the West's rape of Russia in the 1990s as "the largest theft of a nation's wealth during a short period of time in all of world history..." Words to that effect.

Just one US bank, the Bank of New York, laundered as much as $22 billion out of Russia over a period of several years.

The money laundry was set up with the blessing of the US intelligence community -- whose main goal was to insure that Russia would never rise again to challenge the US.

The laundry was part of a covert program-- probably set up by HW Bush during his presidency -- and had a number of parts. One was to support a coup against Gorby. Another was to seize western control of Russia's gas/oil wealth.

Putin was the Russian response to this covert agenda. Like him or not -- he returned control of Russia's wealth to Russia.

MHG

You mean it was a... a conspiracy?! What a shocker!

Odd that you purport to support democracy and yet seem to continually favor people like Putin, Hugo Chavez and Ahmadijihadi.

I'm guessing you think Fidel is a pretty cool guy too, eh?

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 07:15 PM
My knowledge of historical and present day Egypt and the ethnic or sectarian violence that exists there dwarfs yours. Don't try and kid yourself otherwise. Play me an E blues scale ma****a!

Funny you mention music and Egypt. I did 3 cruises down the Nile playing music. I am an amatuer on the Egyptian Nay flute but just good enough to get by. That coupled with my sax playing in the big band and dance bands got me the job. I was there for about 10 months and even lived off ship for 3 months with a friend I met from Turkey who was also a musician. Egyptians back then were super friendly. It was the 90's and things were probably better. Truthfully they didn't seem as religious as they do in the news now. My friend from Turkey has an Egyptian wife. Seriously i will try and call him and ask first hand hows it going but I think he is living in Dubai so he probably won't know lol. I'm sure his wifes family is still there. To find him i would have to go through a couple friends I know stayed in better touch with him but this thread has me fired up to find him.

Thats whats great about music it makes way more friends then religion or politics ever will.

So Req what Egyptian instruments can you play?

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 07:20 PM
We would all go down to this little smoking bar by the river and smoke tobacco in Hookas while we drank Qasab and Coffee. You haven't had coffee until you have had coffee in N Africa or the mideast. Its like crack cocaine only stronger.

cutthemdown
05-24-2013, 07:26 PM
Whatever though Req I am sure you know a lot about it if you studied it. But that really doesn't matter when you hear stories about what Egypt is like right now. Things are really bad there and the Islamists scared a lot of people into not voting, or voting for them. You you doubt that?

Requiem
05-24-2013, 07:58 PM
Whatever though Req I am sure you know a lot about it if you studied it. But that really doesn't matter when you hear stories about what Egypt is like right now. Things are really bad there and the Islamists scared a lot of people into not voting, or voting for them. You you doubt that?

No, I don't doubt Islamic radicals oppressing Coptics/Christians in Egypt. You just seem to think that this is as bad as it has ever been, when that is certainly not the case.

FWIW: I've had the pleasure of playing a Lute and Lyre, but do not own either. A Lute would be excellent to own, but they are quite expensive. (The good ones.) A Lyre is meh.

Working on building effects pedals with a friend of mine and hope to get an EP done sometime by mid-July/end of August.

Cool story about your time in Egypt. Did you bang hos on the Sphinx?

W*GS
05-25-2013, 03:10 PM
You mean it was a... a conspiracy?! What a shocker!

Odd that you purport to support democracy and yet seem to continually favor people like Putin, Hugo Chavez and Ahmadijihadi.

I'm guessing you think Fidel is a pretty cool guy too, eh?

gaffe is no democrat. He think we're all too stupid to have a say in how our government works. Fits with his misanthropy.

If he existed in 1930 in Germany, he'd be slobbering all over Hitler. He would be one of Stalin's henchmen. He'd proudly execute "enemies" of the state when ordered to do so.

gaffe has no moral compass except the worship of raw power exercised brutally.

mhgaffney
05-25-2013, 06:46 PM
You mean it was a... a conspiracy?! What a shocker!

Odd that you purport to support democracy and yet seem to continually favor people like Putin, Hugo Chavez and Ahmadijihadi.

I'm guessing you think Fidel is a pretty cool guy too, eh?

You have a warped world view. You probably think the US is a democracy.

Conspiracies do happen. Under Reagan and HW Bush the US hatched a conspiracy to destroy the USSR -- by manipulating down the world price of oil. It worked.

Using naked shorts -- CIA connected banksters manipulated down the price of oil -- which cut deeply into the Soviets revenue stream. The USSR went broke in 1991.

Check out THE OIL CARD by James Norman.
http://www.amazon.com/Oil-Card-Economic-Warfare-Century/dp/097779539X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369529118&sr=1-1&keywords=the+oil+card

A similar conspiracy -- by the Fed is ongoing as we speak -- to force down the price of gold/silver -- even in the face of rising demand. Check out the recent pieces by Paul Craig Roberts.

Oh but I forgot -- you don't do research.

MHG

W*GS
05-25-2013, 06:54 PM
Most people view the coming down of the Berlin Wall and the end of the USSR as Good Things.

gaffe wept.

He hates us so much that he cries when our enemies are defeated.

Rohirrim
05-25-2013, 09:30 PM
Gaffo is upset that the USSR collapsed? ???

W*GS
05-25-2013, 09:37 PM
Gaffo is upset that the USSR collapsed? ???

Yep. Anything, no matter how evil, that is opposed to the US, is the good.

He hates this country that deeply. Why else would he be so gleeful about what he thinks is our imminent demise. He's a cheerleader for the death of America.

The "man" is ****ed in the head, bigtime.

cutthemdown
05-25-2013, 10:44 PM
****en A if Reagan really was that smart to screw the USSR then I would think he gets that much more popular.

cutthemdown
05-25-2013, 10:46 PM
I think it was more just timing. Communism will always fail and I guess whoever at the switch when it happens can take credit. One day it will be Cuba. I would think at some point some President really decides to end the embargo no? Eventually all the Cubans who got screwed out of property will be dead and there grandkids might not care as much anymore. My friend got to go to Cuba on a humanitarian thing she does through red cross. She is a social worker. She took a picture with my bands tshirt on in John Lennon Park in Havanna. Pretty cool pic.

mhgaffney
05-26-2013, 03:10 PM
Gaffo is upset that the USSR collapsed? ???

You apparently approve of raping other nations in the guise of freedom.

No surprise -- given your history on the OM.

mhgaffney
05-26-2013, 03:22 PM
I just learned about this. MHG

U.S. military to step up presence in Jordan in light of Syria civil war
By Barbara Starr, CNN Pentagon Correspondent
April 19, 2013 --

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/17/world/us-jordan-troops-order

mhgaffney
05-26-2013, 03:24 PM
Gerald Celente tells it like it is.

MHG
GERALD CELENTE: CRASH, DEPRESSION, CURRENCY WARS, TRADE WARS, THEN REAL WARS- THE END GAME APPROACHES

http://silverdoctors.com/gerald-celente-crash-depression-currency-wars-trade-wars-then-real-wars-the-end-game-approaches/

mhgaffney
05-26-2013, 03:34 PM
Gaffo is upset that the USSR collapsed? ???

In the 1990s the Bank of New York -- at the urging of the US intelligence community -- set up a wire transfer scam to money launder billions out of Russia.

Ro and W*gs apparently approve of this raping of another country -- which notice -- was not part of a US plan to defeat the USSR as it happened in the 1990s - AFTER the end of the Cold War. It was rape pure and simple.

But hey -- BoNY also rapes Americans. Check out this analysis by Harry Marcopolis -- who helped bring down Bernie Madoff. Marcopolis has been investigating BoNY -- and explains how they ripped off US pension funds -- to the tune of at least $10 billion.

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2011/10/8_Harry_M._Markopolos.html

W*gs and Ro cheer the raping of Russia -- do they support this as well?

The case shows just how wacked out they are. Typical crazy ignorant Americans. MHG

mhgaffney
05-26-2013, 07:40 PM
But the REAL story is the how BoNY laundered $ billions in the days after 9/11.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911/Collateral-Damage-911-black_eagle_fund_trust.pdf

Scroll to the top of page 31.

It as never been explained why the "fails" in the securities market were concentrated at BoNY -- and which in one week alone totaled more than $100 billion.

cutthemdown
05-26-2013, 08:34 PM
Gerald Celente tells it like it is.

MHG
GERALD CELENTE: CRASH, DEPRESSION, CURRENCY WARS, TRADE WARS, THEN REAL WARS- THE END GAME APPROACHES

http://silverdoctors.com/gerald-celente-crash-depression-currency-wars-trade-wars-then-real-wars-the-end-game-approaches/

A mideast with no Iran, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Libya leaves the region to chaos and extremism. Then we come in and steal all the oil because the govts wont be strong enough to stop us. After that the plan is to deal with China by giving them the green light on taking back Tiawan. In exchange they let us destory N Korea. Vietnam cries foul because they thought we would help them with China, instead we take the over claiming the Vietnam war never ended either. It either ends with is winning or nothing. Canada? we are still pissed about the war of 1812 so in retaliation we kill Justin Bieber. But the plan backfires and Canada is so pleased the ask to join the union. Good news is we accept, bad news is both the USA and our new State of Canada attack Mexico on the same day we announce all mexicans are no legal Americans. We don't stop until we get to Brazil!

Dude I could totally see it.

W*GS
05-26-2013, 08:56 PM
Time for this again...

mhgaffney
05-28-2013, 04:19 PM
The EU has just ended its ban on weapons deliveries to the Islamic rebels in Syria. This may have convinced Russia to go ahead with a sale of ground to air defensive missiles to the Assad gov't.

It is instructive that although these are defensive missiles -- intended to protect Syria from air attack -- Israel has called them a "threat" and says it will not allow them to be deployed.

This is consistent with Israel's military doctrine which stresses of freedom of movement above all else. The defensive missiles -- if deployed -- while not a threat to Israel would limit its freedom of movement. In other words, its capacity to violate Syrian airspace.

Very likely the region will explode before the Russian missiles become a a factor. It will take Syria a year to learn how to run the system. MHG

Israel Warns Russia Over Syria Missiles

By Josef Federman

May 29, 2013 "Information Clearing House" -"AP" -- Israel's defence chief said Tuesday a Russian plan to supply sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles to Syria was a "threat" and signalled that Israel is prepared to use force to stop the delivery.

The warning by Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon ratcheted up tensions with Moscow over the planned sale of S-300 air-defence missiles to Syria. Earlier in the day, a top Russian official said his government remained committed to the deal.

Israel has been lobbying Moscow to halt the sale, fearing the missiles would upset the balance of power in the region and could slip into the hands of hostile groups, including the Lebanese militia Hezbollah, a close ally of the Syrian regime.

Israel has carried out several airstrikes in Syria in recent months that are believed to have destroyed weapons shipments bound for Hezbollah. Israel has not confirmed carrying out the attacks.

The delivery of the Russian missiles to Syria could limit the Israeli air force's ability to act. It is not clear whether Israeli warplanes entered Syrian airspace in these attacks.

Earlier this month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu travelled to Russia to discuss the Syrian situation with President Vladimir Putin. The sides have said little about the talks, but the S-300s were believed to have been on the agenda.

"Clearly this move is a threat to us," Yaalon told reporters Tuesday when asked about the planned Russian sale.

"At this stage I can't say there is an escalation. The shipments have not been sent on their way yet. And I hope that they will not be sent," he said. But "if God forbid they do reach Syria, we will know what to do."

Since the Syrian conflict erupted in March 2011, Israel repeatedly has voiced concerns that Syria's sophisticated arsenal, including chemical weapons, could either be transferred to Hezbollah, a bitter enemy of Israel, or fall into the hands of rebels battling Syrian President Bashar Assad. The rebels include al-Qaida-affiliated groups that Israel believes could turn their attention toward Israel if they topple Assad.

Syria already possesses Russian-made air defences, and Israel is believed to have used long-distance bombs fired from Israeli or Lebanese airspace. The S-300s would expand Syria's capabilities, allowing it to counter airstrikes launched from foreign airspace as well.

In Moscow, Russia's deputy foreign minister, Sergei Ryabkov, wouldn't say whether Russia has shipped any of the S-300s, which have a range of up to 200km and the capability to track and strike multiple targets simultaneously. But he insisted that Moscow isn't going to abandon the deal despite strong Western and Israeli criticism.

"We understand the concerns and signals sent to us from different capitals. We realize that many of our partners are concerned about the issue," Ryabkov said. "We have no reason to revise our stance."

He said the missiles could be a deterrent against foreign intervention in Syria and would not be used against Syrian rebels, who do not have an air force.

"We believe that such steps to a large extent help restrain some `hotheads' considering a scenario to give an international dimension to this conflict," he said.

Russia has been the key ally of the Syrian regime, protecting it from United Nations sanctions and providing it with weapons despite the civil war there that has claimed over 70,000 lives.

In any case, an open confrontation between Israel and Russia would seem to be months away. Russian military analysts say it would take at least one year for Syrian crews to learn how to operate the S-300s, and the training will involve a live drill with real ammunition at a Russian shooting range. There has been no evidence that any such training has begun.

If Russia were to deliver the missiles to Syria, Israeli and Western intelligence would likely detect the shipment, and Israel would have ample time to strike before the system is deployed.

Ryabkov's statement came a day after European Union's decision to lift an arms embargo against Syrian rebels. He criticized the EU decision, saying it would help fuel the conflict.

Israel's defence chief spoke at an annual civil defence drill to prepare for missile attacks on Israel. This year's exercise comes at a time of heightened concerns that Israel could be dragged into the Syrian civil war.

A number of mortar shells from the fighting in Syria have landed in the Israeli-controlled Golan Heights. While Israel believes most of the fire has been errant, it has accused Syria of firing intentionally at Israeli targets on several occasions, and last week the sides briefly exchanged fire.

Israel's civil defence chief, Home Front Minister Gilad Erdan, said this week's drill was not specifically connected to the tensions with Syria.

"But of course we must take into consideration that something like that might happen in the near future because of what we see in Syria, and because we know that chemical weapons exist in Syria and might fall to the hands of radical Muslim terror groups," he said.

AP

mhgaffney
06-07-2013, 01:27 PM
Must read -- excellent historical review by Pat Buchanan -- summarizes what Syria is all about - -and why it's a proxie war. MHG

The Unraveling of Sykes-Picot

By Patrick Buchanan

May 29, 2013 "Information Clearing House" - The thrice-promised land it has been called.

It is that land north of Mecca and Medina and south of Anatolia, between the Mediterranean Sea and the Persian Gulf.

In 1915 — that year of Gallipoli, which forced the resignation of First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill — Britain, to win Arab support for its war against the Ottoman Turks, committed, in the McMahon Agreement, to the independence of these lands under Arab rule.

It was for this that Lawrence of Arabia and the Arabs fought.

In November 1917, however, one month before Gen. Allenby led his army into Jerusalem, Lord Balfour, in a letter to Baron Rothschild, declared that His Majesty’s government now looked with favor up on the creation on these same lands of a national homeland for the Jewish people.

Between these clashing commitments there had been struck in 1916 a secret deal between Britain’s Mark Sykes and France’s Francois Georges-Picot. With the silent approval of czarist Russia, which had been promised Istanbul, these lands were subdivided and placed under British and French rule.

France got Syria and Lebanon. Britain took Transjordan, Palestine and Iraq, and carved out Kuwait.

Vladimir Lenin discovered the Sykes-Picot treaty in the czar’s archives and published it, so the world might see what the Great War was truly all about. Sykes-Picot proved impossible to reconcile with Woodrow Wilson’s declaration that he and the allies — the British, French, Italian, Russian and Japanese empires — were all fighting “to make the world safe for democracy.”

Imperial hypocrisy stood naked and exposed.

Wilson’s idealistic Fourteen Points, announced early in 1918, were crafted to recapture the moral high ground. Yet it was out of the implementation of Sykes-Picot that so much Arab hostility and hatred would come — and from which today’s Middle East emerged.

Nine decades on, the Sykes-Picot map of the Middle East seems about to undergo revision, and a new map, its borders drawn in blood, emerge, along the lines of what H.G. Wells called the “natural borders” of mankind.

“There is a natural and necessary political map of the world,” Wells wrote, “which transcends” these artificial states, and this natural map of mankind would see nations established on the basis of language, culture, creed, race and tribe. The natural map of the Middle East has begun to assert itself.

Syria is disintegrating, with Alawite Shia fighting Sunni, Christians siding with Damascus, Druze divided, and Kurds looking to break free and unite with their kinfolk in Turkey, Iraq and Iran. Their dream: a Kurdistani nation rooted in a common ethnic identity.

Shia Hezbollah controls the south of Lebanon, and with Shia Iran is supporting the Shia-led army and regime of Bashar Assad.

Together, they are carving out a sub-nation from Damascus to Homs to the Mediterranean. The east and north of Syria could be lost to the Sunni rebels and the Al-Nusra Front, an ally of al-Qaida.

Sectarian war is now spilling over into Lebanon.

Iraq, too, seems to be disintegrating. The Kurdish enclave in the north is acting like an independent nation, cutting oil deals with Ankara.

Sunni Anbar in the west is supporting Sunni rebels across the border in Syria. And the Shia regime in Baghdad is being scourged by Sunni terror that could reignite the civil-sectarian war of 2006-2007, this time without Gen. Petraeus’ U.S. troops to negotiate a truce or tamp it down.

Sunni Turkey is home to 15 million Kurds and 15 million Shia. And its prime minister’s role as middle man between Qatari and Saudi arms shipments and Syria’s Sunni rebels is unappreciated by his own people.

Seeing the Shia crescent — Hezbollah in Lebanon, Assad’s Syria, Nuri al-Maliki’s Iraq, the Ayatollah’s Iran — imperiled by the potential loss of its Syrian linchpin, Tehran and Hezbollah seem willing to risk far more in this Syrian war than does the Sunni coalition of Saudis, Qataris and Turks.

Who dares, wins.

Though the Turks have a 400,000-man, NATO-equipped army, a population three times that of Syria and an economy 12 times as large, and they are, with the Israelis, the strongest nations in the region, they appear to want the Americans to deal with their problem.

President Obama is to be commended for resisting neocon and liberal interventionist clamors to get us into yet another open-ended war. For we have no vital interest in Assad’s overthrow.

We have lived with him and his father for 40 years. And what did our intervention in Libya to oust Moammar Gadhafi produce but a failed state, the Benghazi atrocity, and the spread of al-Qaida into Mali and Niger?

Why should Americans die for a Sunni triumph in Syria? At best, we might bring about a new Muslim Brotherhood regime in Damascus, as in Cairo. At worst, we could get a privileged sanctuary for that al-Qaida affiliate, the Al-Nusra Front.

As the Sykes-Picot borders disappear and the nations created by the mapmakers of Paris in 1919-1920 disintegrate, a Muslim Thirty Years’ War may be breaking out in the thrice-promised land.

It is not, and it should not become, America’s war.

Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of “Suicide of a Superpower: Will America Survive to 2025?” To find out more about Patrick Buchanan and read features by other Creators writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators webpage at www.creators.com .

COPYRIGHT 2013 CREATORS.COM

Vegas_Bronco
06-08-2013, 06:17 AM
Great article.

Just like the 30ywar, the greed of the mercenaries and whole cities are torn down by the evil motivator...we are the mercenaries just as Russia is on the other side tearing down to gain tread. War is mistakenly recorded as a series of battles over a period of time when in reality it is culmination of one parties basic greed over another's. I hate war but love democracy so my form of greed is forcing free will of democracy on countries that may not be ready for or necessarily want democracy. All men are entitled to certain rights but they may not choose to these rights....good v evil does abound at its most basic level. One mans free will should not come at the expense of another's or the purposes of democracy cannot exist for both. Russia has learned their lesson with the US but now has China on their side...so it's a new game.

TonyR
06-11-2013, 09:44 AM
...most Syria hawks see the conflict as a contest between the U.S. and Iran that the U.S. is supposed to win. The goal is not to “interpose” American power between the warring parties, but to throw the weight of the U.S. behind one side to deliver a knockout blow to the other. Most Syria hawks are Syria hawks because they are hawkish on Iran, and view the conflict in Syria in those terms. They are very clear on whom they want to fight and why. They also happen to be horribly wrong.

According to Noah’s definition, it makes no sense to speak of Syria hawks because Syria’s government is not our enemy, but for Syria hawks it is just one of many. This is why Syria hawks consider U.S. “action” in Syria to be imperative, and it is why everyone else in the real world wants nothing to do with the conflict. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/hawks-and-velociraptors/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=hawks-and-velociraptors

Rohirrim
06-11-2013, 12:15 PM
If we actually ever learned anything from history, we would figure out a way to draw Iran deeper into Syria while we stay the **** out.

mhgaffney
06-11-2013, 04:42 PM
On strictly humanitarian grounds, I can't agree. For one thing, Putin is the most repugnant thug I can think of. Unfortunately, there seems to be no good alternative. Who knows what will come out of this civil war? Totally unpredictable. I can't agree with the policy of stability at all costs, though. Usually, the foundation of such a policy is simply the old dictum, "What's good for business..." Human beings have to start looking for other philosophical foundations for policy making. It's simply more greed-based thinking. I do agree that we have to exterminate religious fundamentalism. It's time to leave the Medieval world behind.

America has a hard time letting other countries decide their own fates. We need to start working on that. If we would become more energy self-sufficient, we would find that what happens in places like Syria is pretty much unimportant to us on most levels. I'm afraid we'll stick our noses in it just because Israel has such a long and successful history of dragging us into its business. We should provide humanitarian aid where possible. That's it.

I wonder when the American government is going to start nation-building in America?

What about GW Bush and Dick Cheney?

If you look at numbers -- the total of dead bodies -- Bush/Cheney were worse than Putin, by far.
MHG

ant1999e
06-13-2013, 06:32 PM
I read Joel Rosenberg's book "Epicenter" back in 2007. He told what he thought bible prophecies of the end of times meant for today. Crazy how a lot of what he said makes sense. Here is a clip from when he was on that crazy Glenn Beck's show when Glenn was on HLN. Skip to about 1 minute into the clip.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nLBtSnT3XB0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

SoCalBronco
06-13-2013, 08:47 PM
This is so ****ing stupid. I don't give a **** if they are using chemical weapons. That's still a less awful result that allowing Islamists aligned with Al Qaeda to win.

****ing think. Do not arm the rebels. Stability first. If you want to help the residents provide some financial incentives for friendly neighboring countries to accept refugees....NOT ****ing support Islamists.

ant1999e
06-13-2013, 10:08 PM
I feel for the legit citizens of Syria but if we were going to help them we should have done so long ago before the Islamists joined the revolution. But hey, nothing like a war to make the public forget the current scandals plaguing the administration.

cutthemdown
06-14-2013, 04:02 AM
Bill Clinton said that if Obama doesn't step in he risks being seen as a wussy. Watch now Obama will do something.