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Rohirrim
05-19-2013, 10:51 AM
This argument was taking place over on the Syria thread, so I thought I would move it over here:

Whatever time you want to argue that the zenith of America occurred, I would have to argue that our best years are behind us. And that goes for the entire world, not just America. IMO, the well being of humanity is directly tied to it's population, which determines the availability (and cost) of the basic necessities of life. At 7 billion, we have reached the breaking point. Already, we can see that the most advanced countries in the world can no longer cope with the societal pressures of their populations. Countries, including the U.S., are buckling under the economic pressures of caring for aging populations. You can't provide health care to that many people. You can't create enough jobs for the generations that follow. The impacts on the environment of food production on steroids is unsustainable and the oceans are crashing under the human burden. A report came out the other day that enormous amounts of sea life, enmasse, are migrating away from the Equator as the oceans heat up. Those that can't migrate are dying.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111107161959.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/worlds-fish-have-been-moving-to-cooler-waters-for-decades-study-finds/2013/05/15/730292e8-bcd7-11e2-9b09-1638acc3942e_story.html

How many millions in the Tropics rely on that protein source? The effects of advancing climate change, hand in hand with concurrent water shortages, have already led to some political upheavals, like in North Africa. Meanwhile, at this critical phase in civilization, the uber-rich have figured out a way to remove much of their assets from the world economy, to the tune of $32 trillion dollars. Every man for himself, eh? Or maybe they're just smart enough to look down the road a bit?

What do you think it will be like in 2050 when there are 9 billion of us? We're headed for an inevitable crash, IMHO.

Not only that, but the least developed countries are leading the world in population growth. In other words, those countries already unable to deal with their current populations are the ones producing the most new people, and that is the recipe for disaster. http://www.prb.org/Publications/Datasheets/2012/world-population-data-sheet/fact-sheet-world-population.aspx

Those people are going to have to go somewhere to find something to eat and drink.

This is one of the key reasons we need to fight back against the Right Wing revolution taking place in America. When the **** hits the fan, they will undoubtedly morph into a nationalist, fascist movement. IMO, there are signs of that already happening. The Nazis started out as a "fringe" movement too. The chaos of post-WWI Europe provided them with a path to power.

Meanwhile, on the so-called Left which I suppose Obama represents (and who I would argue isn't "left" at all) they seem to be relying more and more on the power of the state. The Left Wing tyrant is not any better than the Right Wing tyrant, IMO. Perhaps both "wings" find some comfort in the idea of a law and order police state that their faction controls? It's an easy abyss to fall into when chaos hits.

The U.S. government is already failing under the pressures of its current load of problems. It has become entirely dysfunctional, as a matter of fact. They couldn't agree on a resolution to make it National Pineapple Day in honor of Hawaii. So what happens as those pressures are incrementally ramped up, year after year? More storms, and much worse ones? More chaos abroad as regimes fall and vital resources are threatened? More crashing food supplies like the one in Pakistan that set off the Arab Spring?

Here's who we get most of our crude oil from, in order:
CANADA
SAUDI ARABIA
MEXICO
VENEZUELA
NIGERIA
IRAQ
ANGOLA
ALGERIA

Other than Canada, not a picture of stability. The Sauds hold their position intact by the use of dictatorial police powers. We all know how long that kind of **** lasts.

Anyway, I don't see how anybody can argue that our best days are still ahead. Doesn't make any sense.

Or is it just the irrational belief that technology will bail us out?

baja
05-19-2013, 11:13 AM
Only a quantum leap in consciousness will shift out quality of life. In order to make way for an entirely new human perception the old ways of living in the world must die away and that will not happen voluntarily. It is that death we are in the throes of now.

How or if we will emerge as a species remains to be seen. To survive we must realize we are all One thing and live accordingly.

The problem is we are all sleep walkers.

Rohirrim
05-19-2013, 11:29 AM
And on top of that, it seems to me that what technology does, by its very nature, is create fewer jobs. Technology makes it possible for fewer people to do more work. Not a good match for a growing population.

underrated29
05-19-2013, 11:37 AM
War. War is and always been out species equalizer. Lemmings run off cliffs. Some animals give birth to 1 pup a year. Humans kill each other.

When it has truly reached its breaking point there will be a big war and our numbers will reset. Likely at or near the same time of some disease outbreak.

baja
05-19-2013, 11:40 AM
And on top of that, it seems to me that what technology does, by its very nature, is create fewer jobs. Technology makes it possible for fewer people to do more work. Not a good match for a growing population.

FACTOR IN ROBOTICS advancements and very soon we the people become "useless eater" to the power elite. What do you think they will do about the fact over population is arguably going to make life on earth unsustainable for most species ?

Rohirrim
05-19-2013, 11:52 AM
Another factor: The First World countries are going to have to close down immigration if they hope to survive. It's no longer a question of a melting pot. Look what's happening in Europe? They are being drowned by immigration. Their cultures are getting pushed aside. Islamists in Copenhagen have launched a campaign to create Sharia Law Zones in the city. France and Germany are forced to deal with an enormous Muslim population that not only doesn't believe in the cultural foundations of Western Civilization, including democracy, but wants to do away with them. Imagine in twenty years when their numbers have doubled, or tripled? Countries will fall from within and get taken over.

Will the cultural values of those who breed the fastest win?

W*GS
05-19-2013, 12:01 PM
A real orgy of doom you got going here.

cutthemdown
05-19-2013, 12:07 PM
The Zenith for America is always in the future.

baja
05-19-2013, 12:10 PM
The Zenith for America is always in the future.

That was what the Romans said about Rome

The Lone Bolt
05-19-2013, 12:30 PM
My aren't you just a little ray of sunshine Ro? :sunshine:

I'd argue just the opposite is coming. The Singularity is Near. Read it.

And the USA is poised to become the world's biggest exporter of oil before 2020.

houghtam
05-19-2013, 12:52 PM
The Zenith for humanity is always in the future.

FYP.

The future for humanity has never, nor will ever be about national origin. Faced with overpopulation, eventually borders will dissolve or be overrun. Never underestimate the power/inertia large numbers of starving animals can create.

But we can talk about pandemics, famine, nuclear war...evolutionarily speaking, the human race will survive nearly every attempt to extinguish it. Only an event which literally makes the world uninhabitable will exterminate the human race.

Anything else will "only" create a massive loss in population to the point where the population can once again sustain itself, whether that be a few thousand, million or billion people. So what we are really concerned about here is, in the end, quality of life. That will surely disappear within the next 100 years unless a huge leap forward is made. But after that, the race will slowly rebuild, learning (or evolving) from its mistakes, and surviving like it has for millennia.

The Lone Bolt
05-19-2013, 01:46 PM
And on top of that, it seems to me that what technology does, by its very nature, is create fewer jobs. Technology makes it possible for fewer people to do more work. Not a good match for a growing population.

Ro, machines have been replacing human beings for over a hundred years now. It doesn't seem to have had an significant (or any) effect on employment.

baja
05-19-2013, 01:51 PM
Ro, machines have been replacing human beings for over a hundred years now. It doesn't seem to have had an significant (or any) effect on employment.

What was the global population 100 years ago?

Try apples to apples

The Lone Bolt
05-19-2013, 03:07 PM
What was the global population 100 years ago?

Try apples to apples

Ro's theory is that as machines replace people in jobs more people, in terms of a percentage of the workforce, should be permanently unemployed. That should hold true no matter what the population of the workforce is.

baja
05-19-2013, 03:23 PM
Ro's theory is that as machines replace people in jobs more people, in terms of a percentage of the workforce, should be permanently unemployed. That should hold true no matter what the population of the workforce is.

resources are the same planet size is the same. We have gone from 1 billion people in 1900 to 7 billion, things are not the same relative to the asset we all live off of.

Rohirrim
05-19-2013, 04:29 PM
Ro's theory is that as machines replace people in jobs more people, in terms of a percentage of the workforce, should be permanently unemployed. That should hold true no matter what the population of the workforce is.

And I think it will in the future. Technology will replace workers while workers produce more workers. Do the algebra.

Here's another problem: Can economies grow infinitely on a planet of finite resources?

Right now it takes thousands of workers to build the millions of IPhones that Apple can sell. Let's say robotics can replace those workers in a few years and build even more phones, cheaper - plus they never need time off? What happens in SE Asia? China?

The whole point is that humans have created modern civilization based on principles that are unsustainable. Will there come a point in time when we can't innovate our way out of the problems we have created? Judging by what is happening in the natural world, I'd say we're on that threshhold.

Rohirrim
05-19-2013, 04:57 PM
A real orgy of doom you got going here.

I think when you look at what is actually taking place in the world, stripped of any kind of bull****, the outlook is not good. I don't see any obvious fixes. Do you?

Rohirrim
05-19-2013, 04:59 PM
My aren't you just a little ray of sunshine Ro? :sunshine:

I'd argue just the opposite is coming. The Singularity is Near. Read it.

And the USA is poised to become the world's biggest exporter of oil before 2020.

I think the first decision any superintelligence would make would be to exterminate mankind. ;D

Pumping carbon into the atmosphere is creating some of our biggest problems. Why would we choose to keep doing that?

baja
05-19-2013, 05:03 PM
I think when you look at what is actually taking place in the world, stripped of any kind of bull****, the outlook is not good. I don't see any obvious fixes. Do you?

Dude tax carbon emissions are we are good to go...

Rohirrim
05-19-2013, 05:13 PM
Dude tax carbon emissions are we are good to go...

That might be a good economic lever for moving people toward inventing more sustainable, and healthier, energy alternatives. Wouldn't do anything for the population, though.

baja
05-19-2013, 05:18 PM
That might be a good economic lever for moving people toward inventing more sustainable, and healthier, energy alternatives. Wouldn't do anything for the population, though.



I was being facetious. That was meant to mimic Wags solution which of course will only serve to be the spring board to global domination

The Lone Bolt
05-19-2013, 06:01 PM
And I think it will in the future. Technology will replace workers while workers produce more workers. Do the algebra.

Here's another problem: Can economies grow infinitely on a planet of finite resources?

Right now it takes thousands of workers to build the millions of IPhones that Apple can sell. Let's say robotics can replace those workers in a few years and build even more phones, cheaper - plus they never need time off? What happens in SE Asia? China?

The whole point is that humans have created modern civilization based on principles that are unsustainable. Will there come a point in time when we can't innovate our way out of the problems we have created? Judging by what is happening in the natural world, I'd say we're on that threshhold.

Well I'd argue that as robots take over manual labor positions jobs will open up in other areas. It's simple economics. Robots make products cheaper to produce which makes them cheaper to buy which benefits consumers. With more money they spend it on other things which creates jobs in other areas of the economy.

I mean, if your outlook was accurate then we should have never invented the cotton gin. After all, think about all the people thrown of work who picked out cotton seeds by hand. Surely those people never found work elsewhere right?

W*GS
05-19-2013, 06:19 PM
I was being facetious. That was meant to mimic Wags solution which of course will only serve to be the spring board to global domination

Reptilians endorse a carbon tax?

Do you have a heretofore secret communiqué from them to that effect?

W*GS
05-19-2013, 06:21 PM
I think when you look at what is actually taking place in the world, stripped of any kind of bull****, the outlook is not good. I don't see any obvious fixes. Do you?

Not easy fixes, true. One of the races is between our population growth and the treatment of women. Another is between our energy needs and fossil fuels and the problems they cause.

I'm not quite ready to write off Homo sapiens just yet.

baja
05-19-2013, 06:31 PM
Reptilians endorse a carbon tax?

Do you have a heretofore secret communiqué from them to that effect?

Oh I get it.... You think you are funny¿¿

W*GS
05-19-2013, 06:33 PM
Oh I get it.... You think you are funny¿¿

Actually, it's your ideas that are funny, in a pathetically sad way.

Rohirrim
05-19-2013, 07:15 PM
Not easy fixes, true. One of the races is between our population growth and the treatment of women. Another is between our energy needs and fossil fuels and the problems they cause.

I'm not quite ready to write off Homo sapiens just yet.

I'm not writing off humans. What worries me is our track record. What we should be doing is seeing the writing on the wall and changing our direction. What I fear we are doing is just hurtling toward some cataclysm, after which we will be forced to change, like it or not.

Hell, half the country has their heads in the sand and they just don't want to hear about it. Look at people like Imhofe? There are people who just flat don't believe in science. It's the 21st century and there are some trogs out there who want us to base our society on the writings of nomadic desert holy men who lived two to four thousand years ago. And many of these nutjobs have political power. If they can't impose their will, they can certainly obstruct anything they don't agree with.

So, in the final analysis, even if we do agree on the change needed, we don't have the political apparatus to implement it. We're at a stalemate. And that's just America. Go to some places in the world like Afghanistan or Africa and you find people who's mindset is just barely out of the paleolithic. Try and explain overpopulation and birth control to them. Hell, they're still burning witches.

baja
05-19-2013, 10:15 PM
Actually, it's your ideas that are funny, in a pathetically sad way.

You do not know my "ideas". You are too arrogantly pompous to investigate them. That closed loop mind of yours dictates you can't get past the word Reptilian. No, you stop at the door, turn your back confident you debunked the latest conspiracy theory. But we know that will always be the case with your level of sleep. We know there will be no waking up for those in your level of trance.

cutthemdown
05-19-2013, 10:18 PM
I think when you look at what is actually taking place in the world, stripped of any kind of bull****, the outlook is not good. I don't see any obvious fixes. Do you?

People like you said the same thing 20 yrs ago, 50 yrs ago, 100 yrs ago. Hell go back to the caveman days and there was probably some caveman painting the end of the earth on a cave wall.

One day god will decide when our time is up. Not one second sooner.

baja
05-19-2013, 10:20 PM
People like you said the same thing 20 yrs ago, 50 yrs ago, 100 yrs ago. Hell go back to the caveman days and there was probably some caveman painting the end of the earth on a cave wall.

One day god will decide when our time is up. Not one second sooner.

How did you come to believe that?

cutthemdown
05-19-2013, 10:59 PM
How did you come to believe that?

There is a "faith" gene you are born with....if your lucky. LOL seriously I guess its just how i was raised. I respect my father and he believed. He was smarter then any of you so I will continue to respect his ways. He was also a scientist and an engineer so its BS that faith and science do not mix. You just must have faith that god created science. Science is both to enrich our lives and test our faith.

Then as an adult I just feel it often when I am engulfed in nature or i see a person sacrifice their own happiness for other people. When I help people instead of only caring about myself i get this feeling inside that we are all one family and someday won't need govts or nations. Then i realize we have a long long ways to go, but giving up and saying **** it there is no god, only science matters, IMO is not how the human race will best serve itself.

Then lastly I was visited by an angel the night my dad died that looked just like my grandma. She told me not to be sad and to live my life in his honor. probably just a crazy dream from being so upset but you never really know do you?

SoCalBronco
05-19-2013, 11:12 PM
And on top of that, it seems to me that what technology does, by its very nature, is create fewer jobs. Technology makes it possible for fewer people to do more work. Not a good match for a growing population.

It's a double edged sword. Technology creates new efficiencies which will undoubtedly improve some aspects of life and it will also likely improve the rate of food production but yes it will also lead to fewer jobs.

baja
05-19-2013, 11:13 PM
Cutt, Thanks for sharing. Sounds like you have some nice memories .

but my question is why do you think it will be God that decides to end the world and not us by reaping the fruits of our free will actions.

cutthemdown
05-19-2013, 11:23 PM
Cutt, Thanks for sharing. Sounds like you have some nice memories .

but my question is why do you think it will be God that decides to end the world and not us by reaping the fruits of our free will actions.

I think the Earth is just bigger then we are. We flatter ourselves in our ideas we control what happens to our existence. We only control how we behave and what paths we choose. We are influenced everyday buy our ancestors and what they have taught us. Thats how they help us from the other side. By leaving us ideas we use to become better people. I know I don't have enough time left on the planet to reach anywhere close to what I think humans will have to become before our existence here on Earth comes to an end.

Thanks for asking. Answering made me realize I don't practice what I really feel in my heart all the time, and that a higher level is there for me all I have to do is step up to it. I am glad I know you BAJA and have enjoyed many of our posts back and forth. We rip on each other but sometimes an exchange like this occurs and it makes it all worth it.

Now go pick a cucumber and make a pickle or something! :)

Also though I can't lie. Sometimes I have doubts and just feel like you live, die, and then thats it. This is just a rock, a freak od the universe with life, and no one will ever understand what the universe ****ing is or where it came from.

W*GS
05-20-2013, 06:10 AM
You do not know my "ideas". You are too arrogantly pompous to investigate them. That closed loop mind of yours dictates you can't get past the word Reptilian. No, you stop at the door, turn your back confident you debunked the latest conspiracy theory. But we know that will always be the case with your level of sleep. We know there will be no waking up for those in your level of trance.

You just proved my point.

Rohirrim
05-20-2013, 07:06 AM
People like you said the same thing 20 yrs ago, 50 yrs ago, 100 yrs ago. Hell go back to the caveman days and there was probably some caveman painting the end of the earth on a cave wall.

One day god will decide when our time is up. Not one second sooner.

This combination of population and climate change has never happened before. You know, quite a few scientists now accept that we are living in a new era they call the Anthropocene (although geologists want to stick with Holocene). What it represents is that man now controls the planet. We can wipe out entire rainforests in a generation. We are destroying the coral reefs which have existed on this planet for 10 thousand years and are the nurseries for 25% of the life in the sea. We can change the makeup of the atmosphere. We dam rivers and plow under wetlands. We can level mountains.

And then there are a bunch of us who can say with a straight face that we don't have any effect on the climate and it's all up to god. :rofl:

Requiem
05-20-2013, 09:34 AM
If there is no such thing as time, you're already there, and you're controlling this cycle. You say, "Man, look what we found here, Einstein," or whoever you're talking to, Tesla - whoever you're talking to. Problems of the future can be solved by mankind because you create them. And you have to believe in the future, it's what we have to do. We progress, we always progress - we try to.

So the Sumerian tablets, they say the same thing like Genesis said, that there were chariots of fire that came into the sky. And these beings got out of them, and they walked like a man but they had reptilian features. They had snake-like eyes, a tail, and, uh, scales, right? And they were - they were here, and they made slaves out of the people. And where they landed in is what the Bible calls the Garden of Eden. They were trying to inbreed with the people here. The women would die, the babies would abort.

But after two thousand years they started taking, the babies started being born and living. And they had tails, they had a few reptilian features. They could phase shift from one dimension to another dimension, and the people who know say it's from the fourth dimension - to the next dimension.

Space is expanding; there are spirits coming from the center, right? We're going counterclockwise. There's supposed to be eight other universes going counterclockwise, and that's called Superuniverse, you know? And love's always been the message. It's just - circumstances happen, right? People freak out, just flat flip out, you know?

Well, that's where Hitler came from, Hitler came from that way. He was an outspoken, charismatic yeller. And, and all these people said, "Hey, we'll use this guy, hey, look at all these people listening to this guy." You know what I mean? And so that's just what the trip's like, that. You know? It still exists, and their bloodline goes back - back into Sumerian times. You know, they didn't call it reptilian, they didn't call it that. But they did, because they called him Satan, they called him the Devil, and it's the same damn trip.

It's a negative force, coming in on a positive force, because it's a third dimension, right? And for it to solidify or to crystallize, it has to have both elements, right? And you have to keep it in balance, or it will, it will, it will, one of them will destroy the other.

TonyR
05-20-2013, 02:02 PM
How will a mass influx of robots affect human employment?

Then there is a more threatening issue: robots are improving in performance far faster than humans. We are stuck with an evolutionary timetable that is glacial, whereas computer vision is rapidly moving from amoeba to insect. We face a future in which robots will be better than humans in entire job categories—that is simply a matter of time.
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/514861/its-time-to-talk-about-the-burgeoning-robot-middle-class/

cutthemdown
05-20-2013, 05:41 PM
Robots may also do a lot of your work for you though. Maybe we can just sit around and let robots do everything. :) Then we just play sports, fish, hunt, hang out, drink, smoke, ****, and make robo do it all. He robo mow the lawn, do the dishes, help kids with homework, **** the wife, walk the dog, i will be hunting.

The Lone Bolt
05-20-2013, 11:08 PM
How will a mass influx of robots affect human employment?


http://www.technologyreview.com/view/514861/its-time-to-talk-about-the-burgeoning-robot-middle-class/

I totally agree. But the upside of this, as I've already pointed out, is that consumers will have access to cheaper and better products. Which will, in turn, lead to more money in their hands. Which will mean spending money on other things. Which creates more jobs.

This has been the case for over 100 years. Think about it. Technology doesn't destroy jobs. It just shifts them to other areas while at the same time improving the standard of living.

The Lone Bolt
05-20-2013, 11:17 PM
resources are the same planet size is the same. We have gone from 1 billion people in 1900 to 7 billion, things are not the same relative to the asset we all live off of.

That's a different, unrelated issue.

Edit: Maybe related. Technology make more efficient use of the resources we have.

Rohirrim
05-21-2013, 09:03 AM
I totally agree. But the upside of this, as I've already pointed out, is that consumers will have access to cheaper and better products. Which will, in turn, lead to more money in their hands. Which will mean spending money on other things. Which creates more jobs.

This has been the case for over 100 years. Think about it. Technology doesn't destroy jobs. It just shifts them to other areas while at the same time improving the standard of living.

If the consumers aren't working they're not going to consume.

The Lone Bolt
05-21-2013, 11:08 AM
If the consumers aren't working they're not going to consume.


You're still not getting it. Jobs are eliminated in some areas but created in other areas. The consumers are still working. They just move on to other occupations.

Like I said, according to you the cotton gin should have been a bad idea.

Rohirrim
05-21-2013, 11:22 AM
You're still not getting it. Jobs are eliminated in some areas but created in other areas. The consumers are still working. They just move on to other occupations.

Like I said, according to you the cotton gin should have been a bad idea.

That's a simplistic argument based on entirely different historical realities. And the supposition that tech eliminates jobs but creates other jobs doesn't respond to the basic principle here: There are too many people. In 37 years there will be another two billion. Your theory of stasis cannot apply to that inescapable factor. Technology will create fewer jobs while human beings create more workers.

Keep in mind the other factors at work here: The climate is changing which we can already see is going to hamper our capacity to create more food. We are already dealing with worldwide water shortages. Now, add two billion more people. See what I'm saying? The math is working against us.

The Lone Bolt
05-21-2013, 11:38 AM
That's a simplistic argument based on entirely different historical realities. And the supposition that tech eliminates jobs but creates other jobs doesn't respond to the basic principle here: There are too many people. In 37 years there will be another two billion. Your theory of stasis cannot apply to that inescapable factor. Technology will create fewer jobs while human beings create more workers.

Technology will not create fewer jobs, just different ones as I've already pointed out. That's the first problem with your thesis.

Keep in mind the other factors at work here: The climate is changing which we can already see is going to hamper our capacity to create more food. We are already dealing with worldwide water shortages. Now, add two billion more people. See what I'm saying? The math is working against us.

I agree that overpopulation and climate change are concerns. But a) those are other issues, and b) technology also helps us to make more efficient use of our resources. Technology help us produce more and more with less and less. That's also a historically proven fact (and the second problem with your thesis).

Rohirrim
05-21-2013, 11:57 AM
Technology will not create fewer jobs, just different ones as I've already pointed out. That's the first problem with your thesis.



I agree that overpopulation and climate change are concerns. But a) those are other issues, and b) technology also helps us to make more efficient use of our resources. Technology help us produce more and more with less and less. That's also a historically proven fact (and the second problem with your thesis).

Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for, eh?

Overpopulation is one of the core issues of my thesis. Look at the world right now. We can't produce enough jobs for the next generation. What about the one after that and the one after that?

I don't think that even the god of technology will allow us to ignore the god of nature. Unless, of course, we can find a way to turn ourselves into machines. Maybe that's the ticket? In the long run, I don't see the numbers working out.

The end process of technology itself is to make life easier. What was the first invention? Fire? The wheel? Perhaps technology will take us to that nirvana where we discover that we no longer have to work? Like the Eloi. Of course, that didn't end too well for them. They were Morlok food. ;D

Pony Boy
05-21-2013, 03:31 PM
If there is no such thing as time, you're already there, and you're controlling this cycle. You say, "Man, look what we found here, Einstein," or whoever you're talking to, Tesla - whoever you're talking to. Problems of the future can be solved by mankind because you create them. And you have to believe in the future, it's what we have to do. We progress, we always progress - we try to.
Let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya ...............

cutthemdown
05-22-2013, 04:17 AM
I just don't think its in our best interests to spend too much money right now on trying to combat global warming. I think we have some real enemies left out there that won't be spending any money on that. They are trying to build nukes, build aircraft carriers and subs, restart the cold war by backing countries like Syria. The world is a more dangerous place then when Obama took over. Maybe not for us so much but for the rest of the world for sure.

Rohirrim
05-22-2013, 12:21 PM
I just don't think its in our best interests to spend too much money right now on trying to combat global warming. I think we have some real enemies left out there that won't be spending any money on that. They are trying to build nukes, build aircraft carriers and subs, restart the cold war by backing countries like Syria. The world is a more dangerous place then when Obama took over. Maybe not for us so much but for the rest of the world for sure.

That **** is nothing compared to millions and millions of people running out of food and water.

houghtam
05-22-2013, 01:07 PM
That **** is nothing compared to millions and millions of people running out of food and water.

Yeah, I dunno how this turned into a commentary on global warming. Whether or not humans have any control over it, or even whether it exists or not, the population will soon outgrow the earth's capacity to support it. Cut just wants to turn this into an I'm right you're wrong debate on foreign policy.

Rohirrim
05-22-2013, 03:28 PM
Yeah, I dunno how this turned into a commentary on global warming. Whether or not humans have any control over it, or even whether it exists or not, the population will soon outgrow the earth's capacity to support it. Cut just wants to turn this into an I'm right you're wrong debate on foreign policy.

Think how pissed they'll be when they realize that Al Gore was right.

houghtam
05-22-2013, 03:48 PM
Think how pissed they'll be when they realize that Al Gore was right.

But he made so much money off it!! Funny how conservatives support capitalism, yet when someone actually capitalizes on something, we'll call it a truth that happens to be inconvenient for them, they demonize him for it AND denounce everything he stands for despite the evidence to the contrary.

Conservatives are a rare breed...it's just too bad someone already took "Know-Nothing" as a party name.

cutthemdown
05-22-2013, 06:30 PM
That **** is nothing compared to millions and millions of people running out of food and water.

We won't run out of food and water.

cutthemdown
05-22-2013, 06:31 PM
Our planet is mostly water it won't run out. We may have problems with too much water in one place, not enough in another, but the world will have to adapt to that.

Being an animal on a changing planet is about adapting not controlling the Earth. It's silly to think you can cool and warm the Earth without geoengineering.

TonyR
05-22-2013, 07:01 PM
Our planet is mostly water it won't run out.

You are aware that only a very small percentage of that water is drinkable, right? Less than 3% of the water on earth is fresh water, and much of that isn't currently obtainable or drinkable.

houghtam
05-22-2013, 07:17 PM
Well and our bodies are like, 98% water, so worst case we can drink each other, right?

Jesus what a ****ing...there are no words.

baja
05-22-2013, 07:29 PM
Why Only One Percent of the World's Water Is Drinkable



NATURAL WATER Only 3% of the earth's water is fresh, non-saline water. Of that non-saline water, 31% is accessible as fresh water. For every gallon of fresh surface water, there are 30 gallons that lie underground. The primary source of water for municipalities is ground water.

Water is held in underground reservoirs known as aquifers. To collect in the aquifers, water passes through the atmosphere where it dissolves and collects atmospheric gases such as nitrogen, carbon dioxide and sulfur dioxide. When it falls to the surface as rain, it's mildly acidic with a pH just below 7.

It then passes through layers of surface soil, clay, sand, gravel and other porous materials. As it passes through those layers, it is filtered, preventing it from dragging most surface impurities with it underground. However, it does carry minute quantities of bacterial spores.

At the same time, because the water is acidic, it dissolves minerals and brings them into the aquifers. As the water remains in the aquifer, it continues to dissolve minerals until an equilibrium between the dissolved content of minerals and the pH is achieved. These minerals may be of a toxic including heavy metals.

Like microscopic seeds, the tiny spores open to become live bacteria. The minerals in the water act as nutrients for different types of bacteria and allow the populations to multiply. There are multiple genera types of these bacteria that may include Pseudomonas, Flavobacterium and Acinetobacter.


MUNICIPAL WATER As noted above, humans extract some of this water from the ground and consume it as drinking water. If the water is consumed without treatment, the bacteria pass into the body as pathogens. For the majority of people, antibodies rally to resist and destroy the bacteria. But for a small, yet noticeable segment of the population, these pathogens present a health risk.

To protect these people, municipalities use chemical agents such as chlorine or chlorine-based products to kill bacteria. In addition, where unsafe levels of toxic minerals exist, they are removed by bonding them into larger molecular particles and filtering them out. These treatment processes reduce the risk of disease and consumption of toxic minerals, making the water safer to drink.

When municipalities run tests on their treatment facilities, the rate of compliance exceeds 90%. So the vast majority of municipal water consumed out of the taps of developed countries (e.g. the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia and New Zealand) is safe. Only on rare occasions does water that is not compliant with standards reach the public.

CORPORATIZED WATER For a price, this water can be improved. Further filtration can remove lingering traces of bacteria and spores. Reverse osmosis can remove greater percentages of mineral impurities. To stabilize the water and prevent it from reacquiring minerals, food-quality minerals can be added. The resulting water is extremely safe, mildly flavored and highly consumable. It can then be packaged into sterile plastic bottles and distributed to the public.


Read more at http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/health-and-body/news-water-everywhere-what-can-you-drink#AdwRfJaZo7ISFUHP.99

Rohirrim
05-22-2013, 08:14 PM
We won't run out of food and water.

No. America has the infrastructure to deal with it. Probably. Most of the rest of the world does not.

cutthemdown
05-22-2013, 08:22 PM
You are aware that only a very small percentage of that water is drinkable, right? Less than 3% of the water on earth is fresh water, and much of that isn't currently obtainable or drinkable.

You also realize that we have the technology to desalinate if we got desperate right? Besides the water gets moved around. From the ocean, into rain, onto land, into the rivers, lakes and aquifiers and so on.

But I do agree 100% securing our water needs should be of paramount concern. We should probably be building more and more resevoirs, dams, whatever it takes to secure as much freshwater as we can.

cutthemdown
05-22-2013, 08:23 PM
No. America has the infrastructure to deal with it. Probably. Most of the rest of the world does not.

I thought you didn't want to be the police/caretaker of the world? Which is it?

cutthemdown
05-22-2013, 08:26 PM
Every wonder if global warming something our leaders look at and say our enemies will be worst off then we will. Bring it on. Water and food shortages could kill countries like Iran and N Korea.

Rohirrim
05-22-2013, 11:08 PM
I thought you didn't want to be the police/caretaker of the world? Which is it?

Your comprehension needs some work.

Fedaykin
05-23-2013, 02:47 AM
Cutlet once again bouncing around doing nothing but proving his ignorance.

cutthemdown
05-23-2013, 04:08 AM
You two have fun out changing your life so that someday the world won't run out of water. Friggin idiots.

houghtam
05-23-2013, 09:42 AM
Guys, all water is is just two parts hydrogen for one part oxygen. If we just get a bunch of hydrogen and oxygen and like, mix it all together, boom! as much water as the world will ever need.

God you guys are soo dumb.

TonyR
05-24-2013, 08:30 PM
Interesting read somewhat related to this topic:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/05/24/with-freedom-comes-great-inequality/

Rohirrim
05-25-2013, 05:51 AM
Interesting read somewhat related to this topic:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/05/24/with-freedom-comes-great-inequality/

This conservatism would embrace universal healthcare as a bulwark of democratic legitimacy in an age of such extremes; it should break up the banks and bring back Glass-Steagall; it should drastically simplify the tax code, ridding it of special interest deductions; it should construct an international agreement to prevent the egregious and disgusting tax avoidance of a company like Apple; and it should seek to invest and innovate in education and infrastructure.


http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/01/25/food_fight_john.gif#food%20fight%20gif%20250x150