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nyuk nyuk
03-28-2013, 07:03 PM
Teh lulz, libs... Teh lulz... Click for full version (http://www.whitehouse.gov/ondcp/ondcp-fact-sheets/marijuana-legalization)

Marijuana use is harmful and should be discouraged

Marijuana use is associated with dependence, respiratory and mental illness, poor motor performance, and impaired cognitive and immune system functioning, among other negative effects.

Marijuana intoxication can cause distorted perceptions, difficulty in thinking and problem solving, and problems with learning and memory.

Studies have shown an association between chronic marijuana use and increased rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, and schizophrenia.
Other research has shown marijuana smoke to contain carcinogens and to be an irritant to the lungs. Marijuana smoke, in fact, contains 50‐70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke.

Legalization would lower price, thereby increasing use

A recent report from the RAND Corporation, “Altered State,” discusses how legalization would cause the price of marijuana to plummet, triggering increases in use of the drug.

Illegality helps keep prices higher. And because drug use is sensitive to price, especially among young people, higher prices help keep use rates relatively low.

Use of the legal substances alcohol and tobacco far outpaces the use of marijuana (figure 2), a strong indication that laws reduce the availability and acceptability of substances.

Our experience with even tightly regulated prescription drugs, such as Oxycontin, shows that legalizing drugs widens availability and misuse, even when controls are in place.

Tax revenue would be offset by higher social costs

The costs to society of alcohol and tobacco – substances that are legal and taxed – are much greater than the revenue they generate.

Federal excise taxes collected on alcohol in 2007 totaled around $9 billion; states collected around $5.5 billion. Combined, these amounts are less than 10 percent of the estimated $185 billion in alcohol‐related costs to health care, criminal justice, and the workplace in lost productivity.

Tobacco does not yield net revenue when taxed. Each year, Americans spend more than $200 billion on the social costs of smoking, but only about $25 billion is collected in taxes.

Legalization would further burden the criminal justice system

Legalizing marijuana would increase use of the drug and, consequently, the harm it causes, thus adding to the burden on the criminal justice system. Arrests for alcohol‐related crimes, such as violations of liquor laws, public drunkenness, and driving under the influence, totaled nearly 2.7 million in 2008. Marijuana‐possession arrests under current laws in 2008 totaled around 750,000.

Most people whose only crime is marijuana possession do not go to prison. A survey by the Bureau of Justice Statistics showed that 0.7% of all state inmates were behind bars for marijuana possession only (with many of them pleading down from more serious crimes). Other independent research has shown that the risk of arrest for each “joint,” or marijuana cigarette, smoked is about 1 arrest for every 12,000 joints.

Legalization would do little, if anything, to curb drug violence

Marijuana accounts for only a portion of the proceeds gained by criminal organizations that profit from drug distribution, human trafficking, and other crimes, so legalizing marijuana would not deter these groups from continuing to operate.

Under the most commonly proposed legalization regime – one that imposes high taxes on marijuana – violent drug cartels would simply undercut legal prices to keep their market share. With increased demand for marijuana resulting from legalization, these groups would likely grow stronger.

houghtam
03-28-2013, 07:27 PM
Disagree with a lot of their logic.

Fortunately, this is a social issue, and the cards are stacked against the government.

Eventually marijuana will be legalized. It's just a matter of how long. First will be medicinal, then state and local decriminalization followed by federal ambivalence, which we've already seen increasing.

Sooner or later, pot will be legal, regardless of who is in power.

nyuk nyuk
03-28-2013, 07:54 PM
Federal ambivalence is 100% Obama's doing, contradicting his own Council's recommendations. It's illegal at the federal level and Obama told the feds to stop enforcing it.

What was that about an oath of office?

Rohirrim
03-28-2013, 10:03 PM
If we honestly looked at the effects of alcohol and had the character as a society to be intellectually consistent, we would outlaw that as well. And yet we accept alcohol, and all its societal damage, while pretending that drugs are different.

The Lone Bolt
03-28-2013, 11:29 PM
If we honestly looked at the effects of alcohol and had the character as a society to be intellectually consistent, we would outlaw that as well. And yet we accept alcohol, and all its societal damage, while pretending that drugs are different.

Yup. In fact alcohol and tobacco are far more dangerous than cannabis. So when is the White House going to call for the return of alcohol prohibition and the outlawing of tobacco?

cutthemdown
03-29-2013, 02:11 AM
Weed is better off illegal but make it only an infraction to possess and a misdemeanor to grow.

I say that only because I love weed and dont want the govt ****ing it up with taxes regulations and a bunch of BS.

Plus legalizing kills the value so it would actually hurt the economy. I heard colo plan was to tax it locally for sales tax, but then also add a 50 an ounce excise tax? That would keep price high but also still leave plenty of incentive to grow and sell outside the tax. So now you still need to enforce and you don't save the money you thought you were going to. Hell they start a tax they will probably put more resources into stopping home growers and growers skirting the tax.

cutthemdown
03-29-2013, 02:13 AM
I can see it now weed can't be more then 15% thc.
Weed can't be sold in quantities more then a half ounce at a time
weed cant be sold or consumed where alcohol is
you cant smoke weed and drive in the same day
you cant smoke weed in public.
weed can't be grown here, or there, making it a game of only the big boys.
weed cant be grown in the same house people live

i can see it now.

cutthemdown
03-29-2013, 02:20 AM
If we honestly looked at the effects of alcohol and had the character as a society to be intellectually consistent, we would outlaw that as well. And yet we accept alcohol, and all its societal damage, while pretending that drugs are different.

I think the main reason the feds stay away is because to get weed off all the international drug laws we have signed may not be so easy as just doing it unilaterally. Sure we could scrap them and say we do what we want but then we would lose a lot of deals we have with South American countries.

So to do it the USA would probably have to sit down with other countries and talk about the drug war. People in Colombia want to stop fighting it so hard also. They say why should we care most of the coke goes to the USA. Cheap cocaine and a new wave of coke being in is not what Obama or any president wants. So it may be more trouble then its worth.

Obviously the govt knows the estimates by groups like Normal of 100 billion a yr in taxes is a joke. More like 10 billion max.

Meck77
03-29-2013, 03:26 AM
If we honestly looked at the effects of alcohol and had the character as a society to be intellectually consistent, we would outlaw that as well. And yet we accept alcohol, and all its societal damage, while pretending that drugs are different.

The same could be said about frozen food, fast food, and instant food yet parents pour it down their children's throats willingly.

cutthemdown
03-31-2013, 04:00 AM
Alcohol doesn't demotivate you as much as weed. In college guys would drink at night on weekends but still be good students during the week. But the stoners seemed to get so into you miss class and slack off during the whole week. Then on top of it they usually drink some also.

Weed makes people lazier and I think our govt worries about that some. Other dangerous things like ciggs and alcohol don't as much.

DenverBrit
03-31-2013, 07:52 AM
Based upon harm, pot should have been legalized long before alcohol and cigarettes.

http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/20101106_WOC504_0.gif

Rohirrim
03-31-2013, 08:50 AM
Alcohol doesn't demotivate you as much as weed. In college guys would drink at night on weekends but still be good students during the week. But the stoners seemed to get so into you miss class and slack off during the whole week. Then on top of it they usually drink some also.

Weed makes people lazier and I think our govt worries about that some. Other dangerous things like ciggs and alcohol don't as much.

The reason the U.S. gave up on outlawing alcohol was because the ban was unenforceable and the side effects (organized crime, a large part of the populace engaged in criminal acts, etc.) were more destructive than the good that came from the ban. It's the same thing with drugs. Unfortunately, it seems to be taking us a much longer time for our government to wake up to the truth.

baja
03-31-2013, 09:32 AM
The reason the U.S. gave up on outlawing alcohol was because the ban was unenforceable and the side effects (organized crime, a large part of the populace engaged in criminal acts, etc.) were more destructive than the good the came from the ban. It's the same thing with drugs. Unfortunately, it seems to be taking us a much longer time for our government to wake up to the truth.

It's not in the best interests of the controllers of the America government, they are on top of the food chain of the illegal drug business, they will never give up all that money to fund their dark projects. Not to mention loose a great source of slave labor to their "for profit" prison system but mostly the will not like to loose one powerful tool that sustains the chaos and fear they must have to systematically and deftly lead us into slavery.

Inkana7
03-31-2013, 09:44 AM
Alcohol doesn't demotivate you as much as weed. In college guys would drink at night on weekends but still be good students during the week. But the stoners seemed to get so into you miss class and slack off during the whole week. Then on top of it they usually drink some also.

Weed makes people lazier and I think our govt worries about that some. Other dangerous things like ciggs and alcohol don't as much.

In my college experience, those that drank a lot on weekends also smoked a lot of weed. They're not mutually exclusive. The guys who were stoners are no different than the guys who chose to drink every weeknight, instead of just recreational use on the weekends to relieve stress and let loose or whatever.

baja
03-31-2013, 10:18 AM
In my college experience, those that drank a lot on weekends also smoked a lot of weed. They're not mutually exclusive. The guys who were stoners are no different than the guys who chose to drink every weeknight, instead of just recreational use on the weekends to relieve stress and let loose or whatever.

Usually College behavior does not carry forward once you leave school.

cutthemdown
03-31-2013, 11:49 AM
The reason the U.S. gave up on outlawing alcohol was because the ban was unenforceable and the side effects (organized crime, a large part of the populace engaged in criminal acts, etc.) were more destructive than the good that came from the ban. It's the same thing with drugs. Unfortunately, it seems to be taking us a much longer time for our government to wake up to the truth.

I don't really see a big problem like that now though do you? The crime then was spilling into the streets with brazen gunman. Sort of like Mexico now. Our justice system and police have gotten so good ours is kept much more out of the view of everyday ordinary Americans.

So we don't have to make weed illegal because of that. Also i could never agree with cocaine, heroin, meth, pcp, etc being legal. I don't care is it is impossible to completely enforce. Its hard to enforce rape also but that doesn't mean govt should figure that out and stop enforcing it.

You try your best to enforce laws that make us safer and are needed for the public good. You don't just make them based on what is easy to enforce.

cutthemdown
03-31-2013, 11:52 AM
In my college experience, those that drank a lot on weekends also smoked a lot of weed. They're not mutually exclusive. The guys who were stoners are no different than the guys who chose to drink every weeknight, instead of just recreational use on the weekends to relieve stress and let loose or whatever.

It's just my opinion stoners are lazier then drunks. Obviously any person who does any type of drug or alcohol everyday won't get much done.

Whatever though i agree that weed won't kill you and is a great way to relax. I just feel we are better off with decriminalization over legalization. Lets not ruin peoples lives, but also lets not encourage kids that weed is a great thing.

cutthemdown
03-31-2013, 11:57 AM
Also Inkana decriminalization of legalization is much easier and will cost us less money. If we try and make weed some revenue tax all it will do is make the black market grow bigger and become harder to police. I heard colo thinking about a 50 dollar an ounce tax? Thats all the incentive people need to keep the black market growing. So much for no enforcement.

Decriminalization keeps us in line with our treaties with other countries and is easier to accomplish.

houghtam
03-31-2013, 02:25 PM
If it were up to me they would legalize it while still at least addressing the crime and drug dealing issue. You can smoke all you want, but once you commit a crime while high, or use profits from marijuana sale for the commission of a crime, you get an automatic mandatory 15 years or whatever the powers that be decide is fair. Kind of like the committing a crime with a firearm/deadly weapon or using a cellphone to commit a crime laws.

cutthemdown
03-31-2013, 07:56 PM
If it were up to me they would legalize it while still at least addressing the crime and drug dealing issue. You can smoke all you want, but once you commit a crime while high, or use profits from marijuana sale for the commission of a crime, you get an automatic mandatory 15 years or whatever the powers that be decide is fair. Kind of like the committing a crime with a firearm/deadly weapon or using a cellphone to commit a crime laws.

lol

cutthemdown
03-31-2013, 07:57 PM
So if you get stoned and steal a doughnut you get 15 yrs huh. Houghtam you crack me up sometimes. Happy Easter dude.

cutthemdown
03-31-2013, 08:01 PM
Weed should just be decriminalized. Then what you do is use fines to control weed. If you get caught growing it 1000 dollar fine. Possession 100 dollar fine. Smoking it in public 250 dollar fine. That is how you make it a revenue generator.

Just stop putting people in prison for it. Obviously if you have a 100 grand a yr or more coming in and you don't pay taxes well we already have laws for that. You catch them and fine the **** out of them.

I just dont see how legalization would really work out that well.

The Lone Bolt
04-01-2013, 12:52 AM
I don't really see a big problem like that now though do you? The crime then was spilling into the streets with brazen gunman.

As it is now. Just not in your neighborhood.

Our justice system and police have gotten so good ours is kept much more out of the view of everyday ordinary Americans.

So we don't have to make weed illegal because of that.

Oh goodie. Since most middle-class and rich Americans are insulated from the violence created by the drug war we should just pretend there's no problem. Good thinking! :dummy:

I don't care is it is impossible to completely enforce. Its hard to enforce rape also but that doesn't mean govt should figure that out and stop enforcing it.

And you just won the Most Moronic Analogy of the Year award. Congratulations! :hitself:

You try your best to enforce laws that make us safer and are needed for the public good. You don't just make them based on what is easy to enforce.

Yes and busting some dude minding his own business smoking weed in his living room sure makes us all a lot safer! :mullet1:

cutthemdown
04-01-2013, 02:07 PM
As it is now. Just not in your neighborhood.



Oh goodie. Since most middle-class and rich Americans are insulated from the violence created by the drug war we should just pretend there's no problem. Good thinking! :dummy:



And you just won the Most Moronic Analogy of the Year award. Congratulations! :hitself:



Yes and busting some dude minding his own business smoking weed in his living room sure makes us all a lot safer! :mullet1:

Why do you say that? It's not at all what I said. I said the best way to handle it is to decriminalize possession, use, and maybe even growing it yourself. But keep it an infraction you fine people for.

If you make it legal it opens up a can of works our govt has not time for right now.

i always tell people weed is on all our international narco treaties. We can't just unilaterally pull out of those unless we want colombia to maybe then say fine we don't need to enforce cocoa laws. Our govt has better things to worry about and flooding our markets with cheap drugs could have many repercussions you haven't thought of yet.

I don't however support people being busted for smoking weed. I smoke weed myself sometimes.

cutthemdown
04-01-2013, 02:08 PM
Also Lone Bolt your point the war on drug is the root of violence is also a joke. Without drugs to make money on the inner city thugs would just do more crimes of property to make money.

If anything weed being legal would end a revenue stream for people and force them into even worst crimes.

baja
04-01-2013, 02:37 PM
Also Lone Bolt your point the war on drug is the root of violence is also a joke. Without drugs to make money on the inner city thugs would just do more crimes of property to make money.

If anything weed being legal would end a revenue stream for people and force them into even worst crimes.

Dude I like your football takes but man do you have some wacko ideas on other issues.

cutthemdown
04-01-2013, 03:01 PM
Dude I like your football takes but man do you have some wacko ideas on other issues.

You know it's getting bad when baja calls you wacko. That's like lance Armstrong saying you are a cheat.

The Lone Bolt
04-01-2013, 06:40 PM
I think that the OP -- and Cut -- need to face the fact that the drug wars are coming to a close and the prohibitionists have lost the debate.

The Next 8 States That Could Legalize Marijuana
Paul Szoldra | Mar. 23, 2013, 2:00 PM | 115,142 | 16

AP
Months after Washington and Colorado became the first states to legalize recreational marijuana, the push to make toking up legal is gaining momentum.

But it hasn't been easy. Activists still face stiff opposition from politicians, as well as the White House and a number of former Drug Enforcement chiefs, among others.

The fight will continue, however, especially with eight states considering legislation that would legalize marijuana this year.

Read the rest here: http://www.businessinsider.com/legalize-marijuana-2013-3

cutthemdown
04-01-2013, 08:56 PM
I'm not a big fan of legalization because I think govt will just screw it up. For instance make rules and regs so that only big corporation grow it. Then regulate it so THC can only be so high etc etc. If the law was its legal, anyone can grow it, you can smoke it anywhere you can ciggs, sell it along with alcohol at bars, let me grow my own in my house etc then fine. Also it should not be taxed any more then the % alcohol is. The notion a 50 dollar an ounce tax is fair when i can buy some killer weed right now for 175 an ounce is a joke.

cutthemdown
04-01-2013, 08:57 PM
Also I don't see how states can go over the fed law. Sure obama can sort of ignore it but you watch one day they will crack down. I'm not sure why the feds so against it but if a liberal prez like Obama won't take the effort to change it not sure anyone will.

If a repub managed to win in 4 yrs who knows colo could have dea raiding all their pot shops.

The Lone Bolt
04-01-2013, 09:51 PM
Also I don't see how states can go over the fed law. Sure obama can sort of ignore it but you watch one day they will crack down. I'm not sure why the feds so against it but if a liberal prez like Obama won't take the effort to change it not sure anyone will.

If a repub managed to win in 4 yrs who knows colo could have dea raiding all their pot shops.

Fat chance. No matter who is POTUS.

Americans Want Federal Gov't Out of State Marijuana Laws
Overall support for legalizing marijuana use is split
by Frank Newport

PRINCETON, NJ -- Sixty-four percent of Americans are against the federal government's taking steps to enforce federal anti-marijuana laws in states where marijuana is legal. Americans who personally believe that marijuana should be legal overwhelmingly say the federal government should not get involved at the state level, along with four in 10 of those who are opposed to legalized marijuana.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159152/americans-federal-gov-state-marijuana-laws.aspx

cutthemdown
04-01-2013, 10:46 PM
Fat chance. No matter who is POTUS.



http://www.gallup.com/poll/159152/americans-federal-gov-state-marijuana-laws.aspx

Those polls always are skewed by saying would you want it legal so it can be taxed. Its sold on a false bill of goods it will raise significant revenue.

The Lone Bolt
04-01-2013, 11:43 PM
Those polls always are skewed by saying would you want it legal so it can be taxed. Its sold on a false bill of goods it will raise significant revenue.


And you can prove that about this particular poll? Evidence? hmmm...

cutthemdown
04-02-2013, 12:16 AM
That poll actually is quite split on the legalization issue. i would say its probably a good poll. So you're all for states rights? What if a state wants to make abortion illegal, would you support feds staying out of it. Of what if states wanted to do away with all affirmitive action? So IMO the issue of states rights gets cloudy depending on what issue you are talking about. What if a state wanted to make cocaine legal?

Pony Boy
04-02-2013, 04:22 PM
Driving High in Mile High

DENVER (AP) - Colorado lawmakers are trying for a fourth time to set driving limits for marijuana users.

http://www.9news.com/news/local/article/328004/346/Marijuana-driving-limits-up-for-vote-in-CO

cutthemdown
04-03-2013, 02:39 AM
Yep you watch they will make it impossible to be a smoke and drive, or get any kind of good job. Weed will be legal but pushed to the fringe still or force people to try and get around they system with fake urine and hair etc.

Then you watch the tax will be a joke, then some states will screw it up making limits of potency impossible to enforce etc.

cutthemdown
04-03-2013, 02:42 AM
I wonder how much someone whose smokes once a day for a couple months in a row would register after waking up in the morning, not smoking, then get tested.

alkemical
04-04-2013, 09:52 AM
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/11/20/un-drug-czar-pressing-us-feds-to-disregard-marijuana-legalization-in-co-and-wa/

UN Drug Czar Pressing US Feds to Disregard Marijuana Legalization in Co. and Wa.
Apparently a democratic vote to decide what substances people can put in their own bodies isn't enough.


Seems that the pressure is coming from the UN also...hmmm. What deals are made in this "grand bargin".

TonyR
04-04-2013, 11:53 AM
There are partisan differences over legalizing marijuana use and whether smoking marijuana is morally wrong. But Republicans and Democrats have similar views on enforcing marijuana laws: 57% of Republicans and 59% of Democrats say that the federal government should not enforce federal marijuana laws in states that permit its use. Substantial majorities of both Republicans (67%) and Democrats (71%) also say federal enforcement of marijuana laws is not worth the cost.
http://www.people-press.org/2013/04/04/majority-now-supports-legalizing-marijuana/

TonyR
04-04-2013, 11:56 AM
Police work can be dangerous. Ordinary patrol and narcotics police like the marijuana arrests because they are relatively safe and easy. If an officer stops and searches 10 or 15 young people, one or two of them will likely have a bit of marijuana. All police have arrest quotas and often they can earn much-desired overtime pay by making a marijuana arrest toward the end of a shift. In New York City, arresting people for petty offenses for overtime pay is called “collars for dollars.” Every cop in the city knows that expression. From the officers’ point of view, people possessing marijuana are highly desirable arrestees. As one veteran lieutenant said, people whose only crime is marijuana possession are “clean,” meaning physically clean. Unlike junkies or winos, people arrested for marijuana don’t have HIV, hepatitis, or even body lice. They are unlikely to throw up on the officer or in the police car or van. Frequently they are on the way to a party or a date, and if they have smoked a little, they may be relaxed and amiable. Marijuana arrests are a quality of life issue – for the police. http://thenewinquiry.com/features/national-disgrace/

TonyR
04-04-2013, 12:01 PM
Colorado has not seen enforcement action like you’ve seen in California, where they’re kicking in the doors of dispensaries. And that’s because Colorado has the most sophisticated medical marijuana regulatory system of anywhere in the world. At this point we have 400 pages of regulations and laws, so it’s very easy to tell if this person is following the rules, and that person’s selling 150 pounds out the back door. But we’re still being cautious. We’re not here to poke our fingers in anybody’s eye or annoy the federal government. We just want to help people and make the process of finding weed more normal.

Normal is what we have in Colorado right now. You buy your weed at a store, and it has hours. I was saying to my friend the other day, “Aw man, it’s 7:30, the weed store’s closed. Oh well, I guess I’ll wait until they open tomorrow morning at 9.” That’s normal. That’s what it should be. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-02/q-and-a-is-colorado-the-napa-valley-of-weed

cutthemdown
04-05-2013, 02:49 AM
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/11/20/un-drug-czar-pressing-us-feds-to-disregard-marijuana-legalization-in-co-and-wa/

UN Drug Czar Pressing US Feds to Disregard Marijuana Legalization in Co. and Wa.
Apparently a democratic vote to decide what substances people can put in their own bodies isn't enough.


Seems that the pressure is coming from the UN also...hmmm. What deals are made in this "grand bargin".

I couldn't find it but once i read an article when CA had it on the ballot and legalization failed by a few % points. It was a lawmaker from Colombia who said if America legalizes weed they would probably want to change coke also. They could say we don't care if coke ends up in America cheap, we are just going to let people grow coco. I heard once the vast majority of people in colombia see the war on drugs as forced on the by the USA.

So IMO the feds, Obama, Clinton, Bush etc just were like i don't see why I would want to open this can of worms with other things i feel are more important.

Really the the massive regulations colo trying seem like they would be just as expensive as enforcing marijuana being illegal.

cutthemdown
04-05-2013, 02:49 AM
Also has colo decided how much tax yet? Will it just be you buy weed and pay sales tax? Or is there a surtax of some kind also?

alkemical
04-05-2013, 08:58 AM
I couldn't find it but once i read an article when CA had it on the ballot and legalization failed by a few % points. It was a lawmaker from Colombia who said if America legalizes weed they would probably want to change coke also. They could say we don't care if coke ends up in America cheap, we are just going to let people grow coco. I heard once the vast majority of people in colombia see the war on drugs as forced on the by the USA.

So IMO the feds, Obama, Clinton, Bush etc just were like i don't see why I would want to open this can of worms with other things i feel are more important.

Really the the massive regulations colo trying seem like they would be just as expensive as enforcing marijuana being illegal.

Noone is talking about making coke, stop changing the subject.

alkemical
04-05-2013, 08:59 AM
http://www.thecompassionchronicles.com/2013/03/27/kentucky-on-the-edge-of-legalizing-hemp/

Really, it's not about cannabis - it's about hemp. It would open such a huge market for production of goods & plastics - it would really change things.

cutthemdown
04-05-2013, 08:50 PM
Noone is talking about making coke, stop changing the subject.

You missed my point. The issue had went to why the UN would care so much about weed as to say anything about it. My point was we signed a lot of treaties with countries like Colombia. More then just the narco trafficking of cocaine is on those. Weed, heroin and the whole list of the drugs most of the world says are illegal. My point wasn't to compare weed to coke, but to compare how a country like colombia might view it. They could say well you made weed legal because it grows well there and you got sick of fighting it.

What would then stop Colombia from saying the same thing?

Another question would be can the USA change those treaties easily or would we have to just pull out of them and try and write new ones.

You do agree we can't just change international treaties we are party to with a stroke of the pen and expect the other countries to not care right? Legalization by a leading country like the USA could start a ripple effect into other countries with other drugs.

That is a reasonable point IMO and worth discussion. You're just not seeing the angle i presented because you don't like me.

cutthemdown
04-13-2013, 03:13 AM
Also I heard the level Colo wants to set the DUI for pot is so low that anyone who smokes on a regular basis will fail it. Sure you can fight it but who has time for a lawyer. hell pot legalization is going to be huge for lawyers.

Cities will equip cops with devices to test nanograms and set it so low any recrational smokers will go over the limit!

Im telling you guys legal weed regulated, taxed, and DUI enforced by cities is no utopia for weed lovers like us. It's going to suck. Eventually it will be legal but the govt will encourage no jobs to hire people who test for it. Eventually they may even say want a govt loan, drug test first.

make it legal then fight it by not letting people who use drugs participate in life.

cutthemdown
04-13-2013, 03:16 AM
http://www.thecompassionchronicles.com/2013/03/27/kentucky-on-the-edge-of-legalizing-hemp/

Really, it's not about cannabis - it's about hemp. It would open such a huge market for production of goods & plastics - it would really change things.

My friend is a big lover of all things weed and hemp. He owned a head shop for awhile. I have the 20 foot long 3D maryjanes sign in a spare room on the wall from when he sold it. lol. he sold lots of hemp stuff but the shirts were sort of stiff and rough. Also I read hemp rope not as strong and light as many of the nylons that replaced it. What type of plastic can it mke though, i have not read that.

I do know you can make oil from the seeds and burn it but i read its not economical. lets face it the best thing about it is lighting up a flower from the female plant and getting high. Or making hash lol.

alkemical
04-15-2013, 09:42 AM
You missed my point. The issue had went to why the UN would care so much about weed as to say anything about it. My point was we signed a lot of treaties with countries like Colombia. More then just the narco trafficking of cocaine is on those. Weed, heroin and the whole list of the drugs most of the world says are illegal. My point wasn't to compare weed to coke, but to compare how a country like colombia might view it. They could say well you made weed legal because it grows well there and you got sick of fighting it.

What would then stop Colombia from saying the same thing?

Another question would be can the USA change those treaties easily or would we have to just pull out of them and try and write new ones.

You do agree we can't just change international treaties we are party to with a stroke of the pen and expect the other countries to not care right? Legalization by a leading country like the USA could start a ripple effect into other countries with other drugs.

That is a reasonable point IMO and worth discussion. You're just not seeing the angle i presented because you don't like me.

Colombia court upholds no jail time for drug use
Associated Press
Friday, June 29, 2012
Colombia's Constitutional Court has ruled that people cannot be jailed for possessing cocaine and marijuana for personal use. The decision ratifies a previous Supreme Court ruling that said people cannot be jailed for possession of a so-called personal dose. A 2009 law placed the dose at up to 20 grams of marijuana and one gram of cocaine.

http://www.druglawreform.info/en/country-information/colombia

cutthemdown
04-15-2013, 01:02 PM
Colombia court upholds no jail time for drug use
Associated Press
Friday, June 29, 2012
Colombia's Constitutional Court has ruled that people cannot be jailed for possessing cocaine and marijuana for personal use. The decision ratifies a previous Supreme Court ruling that said people cannot be jailed for possession of a so-called personal dose. A 2009 law placed the dose at up to 20 grams of marijuana and one gram of cocaine.

http://www.druglawreform.info/en/country-information/colombia

you can decriminalize possession and not run afoul. You can't though let people start producing it and taxing it without running afoul of international law.

alkemical
04-15-2013, 01:51 PM
you can decriminalize possession and not run afoul. You can't though let people start producing it and taxing it without running afoul of international law.

You're all over the map on this, and aren't able to solidify any real stance or coherent idea.

This post was brought to you by Brawndo!*

cutthemdown
04-15-2013, 05:33 PM
You're all over the map on this, and aren't able to solidify any real stance or coherent idea.

This post was brought to you by Brawndo!*

Why? All i am saying is one reason a liberal like Obama may not like legalization is because marijunana is included in a lot of international agreements we have to battle drugs. Also he probably does think it won't be good for the overall health of the nation even though alcohol probably worst. I'm not all over the map i said that many drug trafficking treaties we have with the international community have marijuana listed along with other drugs. Do you deny that? because its a fact. My point is Obama probably doesn't want to deal with having to change those agreements just so weed can be legal at the fed level. Better and easier to just not enforce the law.

Thats why i like the idea of decriminalization over legalization. Its easier.

Also I don't like the idea of a huge surtax on weed or govt regulations no how strong it can be which is what they do when they get involved. Then my last point has always been the tax windfall wont be what legalization proponents think. I heard 100 billion a yr in one article lol.

The Lone Bolt
04-15-2013, 08:55 PM
Why? All i am saying is one reason a liberal like Obama may not like legalization is because marijunana is included in a lot of international agreements we have to battle drugs. Also he probably does think it won't be good for the overall health of the nation even though alcohol probably worst. I'm not all over the map i said that many drug trafficking treaties we have with the international community have marijuana listed along with other drugs. Do you deny that? because its a fact. My point is Obama probably doesn't want to deal with having to change those agreements just so weed can be legal at the fed level. Better and easier to just not enforce the law.

Thats why i like the idea of decriminalization over legalization. Its easier.

Also I don't like the idea of a huge surtax on weed or govt regulations no how strong it can be which is what they do when they get involved. Then my last point has always been the tax windfall wont be what legalization proponents think. I heard 100 billion a yr in one article lol.

So you want to keep the money flowing into the bank accounts of drug cartels. Splendid idea.

And what right does this or any government have to tell me what I can put in my own body as long as I'm not endangering anybody else?

F--k the international treaties. The entire war on drugs has got to go.

That's why I like the idea of legalization over decriminalization.

cutthemdown
04-16-2013, 02:11 AM
Wait a minute Lone Bolt is saying the whole war on drugs should go fed. I thought no one was saying coke should also be legal? Sounds like Lone Bolt is.

The Lone Bolt
04-16-2013, 11:06 AM
Wait a minute Lone Bolt is saying the whole war on drugs should go fed. I thought no one was saying coke should also be legal? Sounds like Lone Bolt is.

The only substances that I'm in favor of continued prohibition are those that so severely impair judgment and alter behavior that the mere act of taking them seriously endangers others. PCP and maybe meth are in that category IMO.

All other substances should be legalized and regulated.

Yes IMO the war on drugs should be almost completely scrapped in favor of a harm-reduction model. Governments need to stop treating us like children.

cutthemdown
04-16-2013, 11:15 AM
The only substances that I'm in favor of continued prohibition are those that so severely impair judgment and alter behavior that the mere act of taking them seriously endangers others. PCP and maybe meth are in that category IMO.

All other substances should be legalized and regulated.

Yes IMO the war on drugs should be almost completely scrapped in favor of a harm-reduction model. Governments need to stop treating us like children.

how about acid, mushrooms, dmt, peyote?

Rohirrim
04-16-2013, 11:23 AM
The only substances that I'm in favor of continued prohibition are those that so severely impair judgment and alter behavior that the mere act of taking them seriously endangers others. PCP and maybe meth are in that category IMO.

All other substances should be legalized and regulated.

Yes IMO the war on drugs should be almost completely scrapped in favor of a harm-reduction model. Governments need to stop treating us like children.

Yep. It's a social issue. Making it a criminal issue is like trying to save a house with a termite problem by burning it down.

nyuk nyuk
04-16-2013, 11:51 AM
I'd like a pro-legalizer to explain to us how ending prohibition was a good thing.

I see nobody weighing the numbers of dead moonshiner gangs with what we've seen with legalization that's far worse: Over 10,000 dead drunken driving a year, alcohol-related violence, and alcohol-related diseases and deaths.

How on earth do a few thousand criminal gangsters shooting each other outweigh this?

The Lone Bolt
04-16-2013, 11:52 AM
how about acid, mushrooms, dmt, peyote?

Legalize, legalize, legalize, legalize. I don't believe that any of those substances belong in the same category as PCP.

Now mind you, I'm not pro-substance abuse. I just recognize what you apparently don't: prohibition is a historically proven failure that has no effect on drug use. Education, regulation, and rehabilitation is what we need, not more prison cells.

nyuk nyuk
04-16-2013, 11:54 AM
^^ Those prison cells are primarily for the dealers. What's wrong with jailing drug dealers?

The Lone Bolt
04-16-2013, 11:54 AM
I'd like a pro-legalizer to explain to us how ending prohibition was a good thing.

I see nobody weighing the numbers of dead moonshiner gangs with what we've seen with legalization that's far worse: Over 10,000 dead drunken driving a year, alcohol-related violence, and alcohol-related diseases and deaths.

How on earth do a few thousand criminal gangsters shooting each other outweigh this?

So you want to bring back alcohol prohibition?

nyuk nyuk
04-16-2013, 11:55 AM
So you want to bring back alcohol prohibition?

So you can't answer.

The Lone Bolt
04-16-2013, 12:02 PM
^^ Those prison cells are primarily for the dealers. What's wrong with jailing drug dealers?

Indeed. So lets also imprison the CEOs of Anheuser-Busch and Philip Morris. Sound good?

The Lone Bolt
04-16-2013, 12:03 PM
So you can't answer.

Oh I can answer. I'd just like you to clarify your position first.

nyuk nyuk
04-16-2013, 12:57 PM
Oh I can answer. I'd just like you to clarify your position first.

My points were stated, my questions were asked. Unfortunately the pro-drug crowd always respond with the same non sequitur "So you want to bring back prohibition, eh!!!"

Uh, no I'm saying let's not let another genie out of the bottle we can't put back in.

Now back to the topic at hand.

The Lone Bolt
04-16-2013, 01:53 PM
My points were stated, my questions were asked. Unfortunately the pro-drug crowd always respond with the same non sequitur "So you want to bring back prohibition, eh!!!"

Uh, no I'm saying let's not let another genie out of the bottle we can't put back in.

Now back to the topic at hand.


So once again, to clarify, you are against reinstating alcohol prohibition, correct? Or are you? How about a clear, unambiguous statement on this.

Irish Stout
04-16-2013, 02:07 PM
I'd like a pro-legalizer to explain to us how ending prohibition was a good thing.

I see nobody weighing the numbers of dead moonshiner gangs with what we've seen with legalization that's far worse: Over 10,000 dead drunken driving a year, alcohol-related violence, and alcohol-related diseases and deaths.

How on earth do a few thousand criminal gangsters shooting each other outweigh this?

Business growth, jobs, economy, curbing one level of illegal profiteering. We currently have a better American beer business than prior to prohibition. Also, Jesus would have ended prohibition.

W*GS
04-16-2013, 02:40 PM
I'd like a pro-legalizer to explain to us how ending prohibition was a good thing.

So you want Al Capone back? You want the Mafia getting rich again?

You want corruption of the police and the judicial system back?

You want loss of credibility for the law, because so many break it?

I figured you for an authoritarian police state type of person, and you've proven me right.

orinjkrush
04-16-2013, 03:29 PM
prohibition on most things never seems to work.

but we keep trying.

maher_tyler
04-17-2013, 08:54 PM
If I could and had the choice...I would much rather smoke than drink. I've never seen or heard of a violent stoner. I see more positives to making it fully legal than illegal.