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SoDak Bronco
03-05-2013, 06:32 AM
Heard on NFL Sirius XM radio that the Broncos are interested in trading for Revis in exchange for pass rusher and a high draft pick, thoughts?

Rohirrim
03-05-2013, 06:37 AM
Forgive me, but I just don't value the position that highly. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a great pass rusher then a great CB.

SlyEli
03-05-2013, 06:53 AM
I'm torn...if the pass rusher is doom, as many people have stated, I think revis would be worth more for the money. Doom is a big liability against the run, and the majority of his sacks came against the chargers picked-up-off-the-street O tackle. But I think the threat of dumervil helps miller out.

BroncoInferno
03-05-2013, 06:56 AM
Heard on NFL Sirius XM radio that the Broncos are interested in trading for Revis in exchange for pass rusher and a high draft pick, thoughts?

I'm assuming the bold would mean Dumervil? If so, that could make it workable from a financial/cap standpoint since Dumervil has an eight figure cap number. Then, we'd have Ayers - who looked great off the bench last season - to step into his spot. That said, I'd still rather pass. Especially if we'd have to include "a high draft pick" in addition to Dumervil. We were 13-3 and lost to the eventual champs due to horrible, one sided officiating. We don't need to overact by making a move like this. Hold steady and use the draft and 2nd/3rd tier free agents to round out the roster. Don't make a panic move in the hopes that it will be the magic elixir that will put us over the top. Those types of moves generally don't work out.

ludo21
03-05-2013, 07:09 AM
yuck.

revis has been injury prone these 2 years. Love the guy when healthy, but a GREAT pass rush Dumervil for him and maybe also give up picks? No thanks!

Agamemnon
03-05-2013, 07:11 AM
**** that. Pass rusher >>> corner. I will seriously lose my **** if this happens.

Karenin
03-05-2013, 07:15 AM
Get rid of Dumervil AND pick up Revis? Where do I sign up?

Eldorado
03-05-2013, 07:17 AM
Ayers and a 3rd.

cousinal11
03-05-2013, 07:19 AM
Interesting. I love Doom & all but...

Pass rushers aren't as rare as a corner that has an island named after him.

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 07:25 AM
I would like to point out that it was pass rush and coverage issues that lost us the playoff game.. The pass rush didn't get home, and coverage was less than average..

The two work hand in hand..

To me, Revis is a game changer. He will completely eliminate a WR. That allows you to schematically do things different with the pass rush if need be. Doom didn't get home against the Ravens, as a result our coverage was exposed. There will be pass rushers in the draft and in FA, but there isn't a Revis Island in free agency, and a draftee would take time to develop into a shut down corner..

Tim
03-05-2013, 07:32 AM
Ayers and a 3rd.

I was thinking ayers and a seventh and we get revis and Wilkerson

DBroncos4life
03-05-2013, 07:36 AM
You would think if rhe Jets could afford this Sir Butt Fumble would have been cut by now.

LetsGoBroncos
03-05-2013, 07:37 AM
Tough one. I have been one of the ones saying Doom is making more money than he should be so from the standpoint of trading Doom for Revis I'm for it. We could get a guy like Freeney to replace Doom for much cheaper. The part that makes me uncomfortable is giving up a high draft pick. Also, how much money does Revis want, and is he healthy?

yerner
03-05-2013, 07:47 AM
it just feels like too much of an investment in one player. why not just throw that money at 3 or 4 free agents and still have the draft pick?

Drek
03-05-2013, 07:47 AM
If it's Doom and our 2nd I could stomach it. Doom and our 3rd would be more like what I'd be interested in though.

I think Ayers could replace some of Doom's pass rush production given the chance and obviously would be an improvement against the run, so I can see where the FO's arithmetic adds up. If they view the gap between Doom and Ayers as less than the gap between Revis and Harris/Carter then it's all about how highly you value the pick going back.

bfoflcommish
03-05-2013, 07:48 AM
Tough one. I have been one of the ones saying Doom is making more money than he should be so from the standpoint of trading Doom for Revis I'm for it. We could get a guy like Freeney to replace Doom for much cheaper. The part that makes me uncomfortable is giving up a high draft pick. Also, how much money does Revis want, and is he healthy?

BINGO... if the front office already knows we are in drivers set to maybe get freeney why not trade doom? I'd much rather have freeney and revis than doom and a 3rd

yerner
03-05-2013, 08:03 AM
Just read this on a ESPN article. Doom is obviously overpaid.

"Defensive end: Elvis Dumervil
Cap difference: minus-$14m

Yes, we're telling you that Dumervil and the 12 times he got to the quarterback for a sack are overrated by that much. With a monstrous $15.6 million cap hit, this has to go down as one of the deals the Broncos got wrong years ago; they did not do a good job of judging the impact Dumervil has on the majority of his snaps. Sure, he had the 14th-highest pass rushing productivity score of all defensive ends, but eight costly penalties and some terrible run defense (his 4.8 run stop percentage was the 13th-lowest of all defensive ends) shows a player who has made a reputation on his highlight reel and not the body of his work."

TonyR
03-05-2013, 08:06 AM
I suppose this is possible, but I have a hunch he's just regurgitating the unfounded rumors that are making the rounds. Most likely nothing to this. Can't really see the Broncos making this move.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 08:13 AM
We struggled for years to find a consistent pass rush. You guys want to get rid of that? We have had Champ for a long time, what has that gotten us? The coverage guys depend way more on the pass rush than the other way around. Count coverage sacks against the regular ones and tell me the difference.

Plus, has anyone around here gotten the head around that if we trade Doom and a high pick for him, we would have to sign him to a ridiculous contract. Like best defensive player type money. No way Jose. Leave that egotistical chump over by New York.

SlyEli
03-05-2013, 08:14 AM
We struggled for years to find a consistent pass rush. You guys want to get rid of that? We have had Champ for a long time, what has that gotten us? The coverage guys depend way more on the pass rush than the other way around. Count coverage sacks against the regular ones and tell me the difference.

Plus, has anyone around here gotten the head around that if we trade Doom and a high pick for him, we would have to sign him to a ridiculous contract. Like best defensive player type money. No way Jose. Leave that egotistical chump over by New York.

Not Revis. And not with Von Miller.

Eldorado
03-05-2013, 08:15 AM
I was thinking ayers and a seventh and we get revis and Wilkerson

Seems fair.

cousinal11
03-05-2013, 08:18 AM
I suppose this is possible, but I have a hunch he's just regurgitating the unfounded rumors that are making the rounds. Most likely nothing to this. Can't really see the Broncos making this move.

I think Denver would be dumb not to make this reported offer & the Jets would be dumb to do this reported offer.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 08:24 AM
Not Revis. And not with Von Miller.

Yeah but Von ain't going to have the same impact he had with a very competent pass rusher. A CB can be great and cover "half the field", but just like other teams did with Champ in his prime, you just throw it the other way. Plus with the evolution of the TE in the offensive schemes, you have that many other options to not challenge Revis.

Plus, what you talking about? Champ was a better corner than Revis in his prime. What did that get us? I remember way more Champ saying during those days the importance of having a consistent pass rush.

cousinal11
03-05-2013, 08:27 AM
Yeah but Von ain't going to have the same impact he had with a very competent pass rusher. A CB can be great and cover "half the field", but just like other teams did with Champ in his prime, you just throw it the other way. Plus with the evolution of the TE in the offensive schemes, you have that many other options to not challenge Revis.

So you think our D with Ayers in for Doom & Revis in our secondary isn't netter than what we have at this point?

Inkana7
03-05-2013, 08:36 AM
this will be our undoing if true

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 08:38 AM
So you think our D with Ayers in for Doom & Revis in our secondary isn't netter than what we have at this point?

seriously? you expect a similar pass rush from a Ayers/Miller combo? I love it how people are always ready to bring the torch and burn Ayers, but now that "rumors" of doom getting traded for Revis started it's all turned into: "yeah, no biggie, Ayers can step in and produce the same push that Doom does because we have Miller".

Plus nobody has answered... are we willing to pay this guy 14+ million/year? And how long of a contract? because I bet he will be bitching about money 2-3 years into that one.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 08:41 AM
Jack Del Rio was a huge fan of Robert Ayers when he had the opportunity to coach him at the Senior Bowl when he was still with the Jaguars. I have no doubt that he feels that he can be a quality player for this team moving forward. I'm guessing that it means Dumervil + 2nd for Revis. I would be more okay with it if it was Dumervil + 3rd for Revis. Still would like to avoid the situation all together. Would rather roll the dice with the depth of this DB class than go for a guy who just blew out his knee. Though, I can see where John and Co. understand the importance of having a legit star at corner after Champ retires.

DivineLegion
03-05-2013, 08:41 AM
It works we'll for both teams, so I could see it happening. Doom led the league in sacks as a 3-4 linebacker, and that is what his contract is adjusted for, while Revis provides the Broncos with stability at the Cornerback position long term after Champ retires. Everyone is worried about Revis' contract disputes, but I don't see that as a problem with the Broncos who haven't shied away from paying Champ top money every contractual cycle. The Broncos also know they have options in the market with Paul Kruger, Cliff Avril, Dwight Freeney, and Michael Bennett if they choose to replace Doom with a veteran player.

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 08:43 AM
Yeah but Von ain't going to have the same impact he had with a very competent pass rusher. A CB can be great and cover "half the field", but just like other teams did with Champ in his prime, you just throw it the other way. Plus with the evolution of the TE in the offensive schemes, you have that many other options to not challenge Revis.

Plus, what you talking about? Champ was a better corner than Revis in his prime. What did that get us? I remember way more Champ saying during those days the importance of having a consistent pass rush.

If they throw to the other side of the field Champ will be there, you know "the guy who was better than Revis in his Prime."

Abraham, Freeney, Kruger, to name a few from free agency..
Not to mention the draft to add another pass rusher..

SlyEli
03-05-2013, 08:43 AM
dumervil isn't as effective as some of y'all think. His penalties and run defense are killers...He was super valuable when they had no other means of pass rush, but now with miller they have that pass rush threat. Del Rio only has his guys rush the passer on obvious passing situations and third downs. The Corners have to cover every down, and revis is a more than capable tackler if it ends up being a run.

Chris Harris is the top slot corner in the NFL. Champ and Revis on the two sides and Harris in the slot with Von rushing is a pretty good combination of rush and coverage if you ask me.

Plus, trading dumervil would finance most of revis's contract, so that's not the problem. revis gives you way more for your money than doom.

want2bAbronco2
03-05-2013, 08:44 AM
i love doom, but weak against run and disappears a lot. I would rather keep doom, great leader/team player, unless we get a RB, SS, MLB in FA and get a long term deal done for Revis and Clady. Also Freeny is older, but pretty much same as doom...maybe a lot cheaper and not a big drop off.

DBroncos4life
03-05-2013, 08:47 AM
So you think our D with Ayers in for Doom & Revis in our secondary isn't netter than what we have at this point?

I don't see how replacing 63.5 career sacks with 6.5 will improve the D that much.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 08:47 AM
If they throw to the other side of the field Champ will be there, you know "the guy who was better than Revis in his Prime."

Abraham, Freeney, Kruger, to name a few from free agency..
Not to mention the draft to add another pass rusher..

Yeah, put a burner on Champ's side and see how him getting targeted most of the game comes out. Ugly!

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 08:52 AM
Yeah, put a burner on Champ's side and see how him getting targeted most of the game comes out. Ugly!

Revis would have matched up with Smith, Bailey on Bolden... Had we had Revis this year..

Mountain Bronco
03-05-2013, 08:52 AM
I would do it in a heart beat if we are able to sign Freeney. A rotation of Ayers and Freeney plus Revis = better than Doom.

Rabb
03-05-2013, 09:08 AM
I love the debate of pass rush versus secondary. We are acting like we have neither when we have both but they each could use some help. I am curious what those against this move would say if we were able to trade Chris Harris as an example for an impact pass rusher (I am just throwing a name out there).

Rev is going to love this thread.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 09:11 AM
Revis would have matched up with Smith, Bailey on Bolden... Had we had Revis this year..

And so you go all New England on us and just dump it to the TE's, and get rapped by that position like we did all last year.

Look I am not saying Revis wouldn't be an upgrade, but for the bucks and lack off pass rush it's not.

TonyR
03-05-2013, 09:11 AM
...The Broncos also know they have options in the market with Paul Kruger, Cliff Avril, Dwight Freeney, and Michael Bennett if they choose to replace Doom with a veteran player.

^ Yup, this is a pretty important consideration in this whole thing.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 09:13 AM
I would do it in a heart beat if we are able to sign Freeney. A rotation of Ayers and Freeney plus Revis = better than Doom.

According to Mediator, who knows a lot about the Colts -- Dwight has nothing left in the tank and is a polarizing figure in the locker room. Don't want!

razorwire77
03-05-2013, 09:14 AM
People are seriously underestimating how good Revis is. I'm not thrilled with the idea of Doom and a high round draft pick, but we're talking about the best CB in the game. He's the best press CB I've ever seen. Champ, Revis, Harris would an incredible trio of CB's in a league which is all about passing the football.

BroncoMan4ever
03-05-2013, 09:15 AM
I'm assuming the bold would mean Dumervil? If so, that could make it workable from a financial/cap standpoint since Dumervil has an eight figure cap number. Then, we'd have Ayers - who looked great off the bench last season - to step into his spot. That said, I'd still rather pass. Especially if we'd have to include "a high draft pick" in addition to Dumervil. We were 13-3 and lost to the eventual champs due to horrible, one sided officiating. We don't need to overact by making a move like this. Hold steady and use the draft and 2nd/3rd tier free agents to round out the roster. Don't make a panic move in the hopes that it will be the magic elixir that will put us over the top. Those types of moves generally don't work out.

i love the Broncos, but that game was not as close as the final score indicated. Baltimore was in control basically the entire game. Remove a RECORD setting day by Trindon and Baltimore wins by 2 TD's

bpc
03-05-2013, 09:17 AM
I think it would be a great trade for Denver if we can get a long term deal sewn up w/ Revis. I love Doom and all but his best value is as a OLB in a 3-4 type defense. He's a great pass rusher, but can get overwhelved in run defense. He recently sat out a season with a torn pectoral and his production has been ok-good since then but he's getting older.

Obviously w/ Revis coming off a torn ACL, there is some risk there but I think the reward outweighs the concern. As Champ has showed us, long term value is always rewarded with secondary players as they have some of the best longevity in the league. Portis has been done for about 5 yrs now and Champ is still having all-pro seasons.

Rabb
03-05-2013, 09:20 AM
People are seriously underestimating how good Revis is. I'm not thrilled with the idea of Doom and a high round draft pick, but we're talking about the best CB in the game. He's the best press CB I've ever seen. Champ, Revis, Harris would an incredible trio of CB's in a league which is all about passing the football.

Yep, and based off last year's FA period...my guess is the front office still believes we need some secondary help and will make it a priority.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 09:21 AM
I would like to point out that it was pass rush and coverage issues that lost us the playoff game.. The pass rush didn't get home, and coverage was less than average..

The two work hand in hand..

To me, Revis is a game changer. He will completely eliminate a WR. That allows you to schematically do things different with the pass rush if need be. Doom didn't get home against the Ravens, as a result our coverage was exposed. There will be pass rushers in the draft and in FA, but there isn't a Revis Island in free agency, and a draftee would take time to develop into a shut down corner..

This **** is killing me. Lead the league in sacks for the year (as a team) and because of one ****ty game all the sudden it's time to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I blame the scheme just as much as the players for the lack of rush in THAT ONE GAME.

It was quintessential Fox Playoff Pussball. He wanted Flacco to hand his defense the game (like he did the first time), and it didn't work out. Joe was on fire.

#1 in the league in sacks. #3 in passing allowed. "Oh, ****! We lost in double OT to the world champs! We better move our probowl ****ing corner to safety and replace him by trading our second best pass rusher!"

If this goes down, Holy **** is all I'll have to say.

bpc
03-05-2013, 09:23 AM
i love the Broncos, but that game was not as close as the final score indicated. Baltimore was in control basically the entire game. Remove a RECORD setting day by Trindon and Baltimore wins by 2 TD's

This is a dumb retort that I hear far too often. Baltimore wasn't in control other than official aided TD's & drives via penalty. You're assuming that if T. Holliday doesn't return kicks for TD's that Manning doesn't drive us for TD's like he had all season? Take away Denver's flubbed FG, INT returned for TD which was really a PI against Decker, and a hail marry from B-More, where does that leave the game?

Requiem
03-05-2013, 09:23 AM
The trade has to be contingent on Revis getting a long-term deal with the team.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 09:25 AM
As Champ has showed us, long term value is always rewarded with secondary players as they have some of the best longevity in the league. Portis has been done for about 5 yrs now and Champ is still having all-pro seasons.

Sorry, but Revis is no Champ. Longevity is great from a pure professional who values the franchise and honors his contracts. A decade of hearing the Island piss and moan about his contract and holding out every other year doesn't have quite the same level of appeal. At least not for me. :)

Rabb
03-05-2013, 09:26 AM
This is a dumb retort that I hear far too often. Baltimore wasn't in control other than official aided TD's & drives via penalty. You're assuming that if T. Holliday doesn't return kicks for TD's that Manning doesn't drive us for TD's like he had all season? Take away Denver's flubbed FG, INT returned for TD which was really a PI against Decker, and a hail marry from B-More, where does that leave the game?

Not just that but everyone assumes if you take of Holliday's scores that we wouldn't have scored on those possessions anyhow. It's a dumb ass argument for sure, because nobody knows.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 09:28 AM
This **** is killing me. Lead the league in sacks for the year (as a team) and because of one ****ty game all the sudden it's time to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I blame the scheme just as much as the players for the lack of rush in THAT ONE GAME.

It was quintessential Fox Playoff Pussball. He wanted Flacco to hand his defense the game (like he did the first time), and it didn't work out. Joe was on fire.

#1 in the league in sacks. #3 in passing allowed. "Oh, ****! We lost in double OT to the world champs! We better move our probowl ****ing corner to safety and replace him by trading our second best pass rusher!"

If this goes down, Holy **** is all I'll have to say.

I don't think it is going to be hard to replace what Doom does on the field. He is best suited for a 3-4 OLB. As BPC said, he leaves a lot to be desired against the run game. There are a half dozen FA, along with 5-7 players in the draft who could give us the sack replacement we get with Dumervil. I've always been a fan of Elvis, but this isn't too bad of a deal.

I would be upset if it was our first and Dumervil for Revis.

Hopefully we can get a mid-round pick back from them if we throw in a second. Dumervil + 2nd for Revis + 4th. And trade out of the first in order to get back whatever pick we give up in the process.

TonyR
03-05-2013, 09:29 AM
This is a dumb retort that I hear far too often. Baltimore wasn't in control other than official aided TD's & drives via penalty. You're assuming that if T. Holliday doesn't return kicks for TD's that Manning doesn't drive us for TD's like he had all season? Take away Denver's flubbed FG, INT returned for TD which was really a PI against Decker, and a hail marry from B-More, where does that leave the game?

Agree. Multiple times we stopped them and they had drives extended due to penalties, some of which were questionable, and some of which were flat wrong. We also got stopped by penalties at least once, the phantom hold called on a 3rd down dive for a 1st down immediately coming to mind. There were swings in momentum, and I suppose to could argue that Baltimore "controlled" certain parts of the game. But overall it was our game to lose and we did just that.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 09:30 AM
Sorry, but Revis is no Champ. Longevity is great from a pure professional who values the franchise and honors his contracts. A decade of hearing the Island piss and moan about his contract and holding out every other year doesn't have quite the same level of appeal. At least not for me. :)

Revis' grief about his contract has nothing to do with his performance on the field. He is an All-Pro caliber player when healthy. This deal is about winning now and longevity down the road for when Champ eventually retires. If we get Revis and if (big if) he stays healthy, we have a guy who can compete at a high level at CB for 5+ years.

TonyR
03-05-2013, 09:32 AM
Would it make more sense to just go get Asomugha? I know he's not Revis, but he'd sure as hell be less expensive in both trade comp (assuming he's not flat out cut) and pay comp.

SouthStndJunkie
03-05-2013, 09:37 AM
I'd be pissed if Denver finally gets a defense that can rush the passer and them promptly trades one of their two big pass rushers.

I want some continuity and cohesiveness on the defense....Von Miller and Elvis Dumervil playing together again with another year of experience can only be a good thing.

NFLBRONCO
03-05-2013, 09:37 AM
I'd like this move alot better if we were a CB away from SB ring. Honestly we are farther then that right now. If it were me if we do this I would move Champ to S for sure. I was expecting Champ to get picked on alot more in 13.


I will say what I always do how many SB's have we been in with Champ? Awesome trade no doubt but, 0 SB's.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 09:38 AM
Revis' grief about his contract has nothing to do with his performance on the field. He is an All-Pro caliber player when healthy. This deal is about winning now and longevity down the road for when Champ eventually retires. If we get Revis and if (big if) he stays healthy, we have a guy who can compete at a high level at CB for 5+ years.

I guess my point was that "longevity" is basically nothing when it comes to a guy like Revis. He's a year-to-year guy. If he thinks he could make a couple extra million holding out or demanding a trade, he'll do it. If you have to work with that, you do what you have to do. It's just not at all comparable to when we brought in Champ.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-05-2013, 09:38 AM
Yeah, put a burner on Champ's side and see how him getting targeted most of the game comes out. Ugly!

Jesus Christ he has one bad game in 5 degree weather and suddenly Champ Bailey is a liability.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-05-2013, 09:40 AM
I'd like this move alot better if we were a CB away from SB ring. Honestly we are farther then that right now.

I'm not sure what this means, considering i think we had as good of a chance as anyone last year, but I'd agree getting Revis is a curious move.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 09:44 AM
Sorry, but Revis is no Champ. Longevity is great from a pure professional who values the franchise and honors his contracts. A decade of hearing the Island piss and moan about his contract and holding out every other year doesn't have quite the same level of appeal. At least not for me. :)

Feel the same way!

Requiem
03-05-2013, 09:46 AM
I'm not sure what this means, considering i think we had as good of a chance as anyone last year, but I'd agree getting Revis is a curious move.

You mentioned above how you'd be upset if we got Dumervil, but I don't think that his production (sacks) would be hard to replace. It seems like the past 3-5 years, teams have had no problem getting pass rushers in the draft who come in and contribute right away in that regard. However, the # of rookie ready CB's who come in and contribute in such a manner is relatively small.

Champ, Revis, Harris, Bolden and Carter means we are set there for a while. Revis' cap hit gets negated if Dumervil is dished, and we can afford him down the road after Bailey hangs up his cleats and warms up for his HOF induction.

Denver being interested in this move (if they have indeed made an offer) signals to me that despite the depth of this CB class, the Broncos feel it is necessary to had a high quality player to their secondary for the short and long-term benefit of the team.

Given the pass rushers in FA, etc. -- it seems they would rather take a shot there to replace Dumervil and gaining another All-Pro CB instead of bringing in guys who would have a several year learning curve.

At the end of the day, I would be surprised if this happened. I don't think the Jets can get a better offer than Dumervil + 2nd / Dumervil + 3rd. They are getting an impact 3-4 OLB and a high selection. It is probably better than just picks for them.

BroncoInferno
03-05-2013, 09:54 AM
I'd like this move alot better if we were a CB away from SB ring. Honestly we are farther then that right now.


Not sure how you can say this. If we stand pat, we have a team that went 13-3 and only lost to the eventual champs in double overtime due to horrendous officiating. So, no, we are not that far away at all.

NFLBRONCO
03-05-2013, 09:54 AM
I'm not sure what this means, considering i think we had as good of a chance as anyone last year, but I'd agree getting Revis is a curious move.

Adding Revis would shore up CB spot.
Weaken pass rush
While I think Champ would be an A+ S he's still a B+ CB that will get tested alot more in 13. We'll see how he holds up under more fire.

We need another RB S DT G slot WR WR OLB DE

Rabb
03-05-2013, 10:01 AM
Adding Revis would shore up CB spot.
Weaken pass rush
While I think Champ would be an A+ S he's still a B+ CB that will get tested alot more in 13. We'll see how he holds up under more fire.

We need another RB S DT G slot WR WR OLB DE

I just don't get the assumption that this will weaken the pass rush. I mean sure, if we look at this in a vacuum and say we lose Doom without replacing him at all...ok.

I just cannot fathom that if this happened, we wouldn't replace him somehow. If this happens, it's not an "either/or" situation with secondary versus pass rush. It's going to be both.

BroncoInferno
03-05-2013, 10:03 AM
Adding Revis would shore up CB spot.
Weaken pass rush
While I think Champ would be an A+ S he's still a B+ CB that will get tested alot more in 13. We'll see how he holds up under more fire.

We need another RB S DT G slot WR WR OLB DE

There's a difference between "positions that could be upgraded" and true "needs." Every team has the former in the cap era. I'd say most of the positions you mentioned fall into the former category. We will be one the top Super Bowl contenders going into next season if we merely resign our own players and round out the roster through the draft.

Houshyamama
03-05-2013, 10:04 AM
Ayers and a 3rd.

That might not even work on Madden.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 10:05 AM
Jesus Christ he has one bad game in 5 degree weather and suddenly Champ Bailey is a liability.

Not saying he is a liability. But under that scenario I wouldn't be comfortable with Champ. I saw more than the usual guys get behind him only for the QB to over throw them. Love Champ, he's been the best CB I have ever seen. He is still a Pro Bowl CB, but to say he isn't declining is just flat out denial. He had more than his usual lapses against speedy WR's this year.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-05-2013, 10:06 AM
You mentioned above how you'd be upset if we got Dumervil, but I don't think that his production (sacks) would be hard to replace. It seems like the past 3-5 years, teams have had no problem getting pass rushers in the draft who come in and contribute right away in that regard. However, the # of rookie ready CB's who come in and contribute in such a manner is relatively small.

Champ, Revis, Harris, Bolden and Carter means we are set there for a while. Revis' cap hit gets negated if Dumervil is dished, and we can afford him down the road after Bailey hangs up his cleats and warms up for his HOF induction.

Denver being interested in this move (if they have indeed made an offer) signals to me that despite the depth of this CB class, the Broncos feel it is necessary to had a high quality player to their secondary for the short and long-term benefit of the team.

Given the pass rushers in FA, etc. -- it seems they would rather take a shot there to replace Dumervil and gaining another All-Pro CB instead of bringing in guys who would have a several year learning curve.

At the end of the day, I would be surprised if this happened. I don't think the Jets can get a better offer than Dumervil + 2nd / Dumervil + 3rd. They are getting an impact 3-4 OLB and a high selection. It is probably better than just picks for them.

If its Doom and a 2 or 3, i can talk myself into it more than I can if its a first, though I'm still not sure how easy it is to replace his sack total. Plus, and yes I know modern surgery is fantastic, but this is a dude who wrecked his knee last year.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-05-2013, 10:08 AM
Not saying he is a liability. But under that scenario I wouldn't be comfortable with Champ. I saw more than the usual guys get behind him only for the QB to over throw them. Love Champ, he's been the best CB I have ever seen. He is still a Pro Bowl CB, but to say he isn't declining is just flat out denial. He had more than his usual lapses against speedy WR's this year.

I didnt say he wasnt declining, but its not like its gonna be open season on Champ Bailey if Revis comes.

To me, the Ravens game was an anomoly, not some exposing of all the broncos weaknesses.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 10:14 AM
If its Doom and a 2 or 3, i can talk myself into it more than I can if its a first, though I'm still not sure how easy it is to replace his sack total. Plus, and yes I know modern surgery is fantastic, but this is a dude who wrecked his knee last year.

I'm hesitant too because of the injury.

FWIW, there were 20 players in the league with at least 10 sacks last year. 14 of them # DE, 1 at DT (Atkins) and 5 @ OLB.

Then there are guys who had 7-9.5 sacks (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/defense/sort/sacks) which are just as many as those who had the top tier.

The league doesn't have a lot of premium cornerbacks. It does have a lot of pass rushers. And I see a lot of rookies, 1st year and 2nd year players on that list.

DENVERDUI55
03-05-2013, 10:26 AM
Doom for Revis makes sense consideing Denver could draft a DE in the first and there are some good FA options. I have mentioned it before I would love Paul Kruger and dumping Dooms salary. I think he could be had at half the price.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 10:30 AM
If Doom's such a commodity, why exactly would the Jets pull the trigger on this? It would cost them more money to bring in Doom than if they just let Revis play out his contract. And then they'd still have cash to spare to sign one of those Doom replacements who are apparently growing on trees these days.

If what's being said here is true, basically they could have both Revis and a quality pass rushing DE for not much more than what they'd have to pay for just Doom. So either they see more value in Doom than we do, or there's some serious draft pick compensation in play.

Or this is all senseless speculation. In any case, I'm not a fan. Especially if we're talking 1st or 2nd round picks.

ScottXray
03-05-2013, 10:31 AM
I think it is funny that everyone is discussing this like it is almost a done deal.

Frankly, Dumervil does disappear too much in games , and is overpaid also. But he is a potent rush threat. And Revis is a "shut down" corner.
But why would the Jets make this trade, when it is obvious that other teams are probably going to offer them more, in the way of picks, and they get rid of the cap problem they have. Adding Dumervil to their roster will cost them too much for his performance. Unless Denver agrees to pay half or most of his contract, the jets won't want Dumervil, and if we pay half of his salary WE don't get enough cap relief to sign Revis.

This deal aint gonna happen unless we give up WAY too much. I hope our FO isn't that stupid.

razorwire77
03-05-2013, 10:37 AM
I am fairly confident that a rotation of Ayers, Wolfe, Malik Jackson, and a potential FA/draft pick could still be pretty effective rushing the passer. This is especially true when you have a top 3 pass rusher in the league Von Miller commanding a double team constantly. It's not going to be the same type of individual production, but still pretty good.

On the other hand, Revis is a once in a decade type player, he's still in his prime and should be a top flight CB for another 3-5 years. He's basically prime Champ Bailey. Champ in his prime probably had slightly better top end speed, but Revis is better at jamming the line of scrimmage. In terms of forcing turnovers, Revis basically shuts down half of the field and would allow our other very good on ball defenders like Champ to ball-hawk and choke up on TE's in the slot. Basically, Champ could play up in run support and take away a ton of the shallow crossing routes and TE drags that teams like New England kill us with. Plus with Revis on the field, you can provide Champ with help over the top with speed receivers as he gets older.

It would suck to lose Doom, but long-term I think Revis gets us closer to the SB. You can find situational pass-rushers in every draft and in FA. Truly top flight CB's?

Woodson in his prime, Champ in his prime, and Revis. He's that good.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 10:39 AM
If Doom's such a commodity, why exactly would the Jets pull the trigger on this? It would cost them more money to bring in Doom than if they just let Revis play out his contract. And then they'd still have cash to spare to sign one of those Doom replacements who are apparently growing on trees these days.

Because Dumervil's best season in the NFL came as a 3-4 OLB and would fit in well with the Jets defensive scheme.

And yes, there is a plethora of pass rushers in the NFL. If you saw my link, you would understand that. Most of them are DE. The high profile guys in the 3-4 are the OLB types. Premium on those guys. How many made that list?

maven
03-05-2013, 10:40 AM
The trade has to be contingent on Revis getting a long-term deal with the team.

The only way you would do the deal.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 10:41 AM
I am fairly confident that a rotation of Ayers, Wolfe, Malik Jackson, and a potential FA/draft pick could still be pretty effective rushing the passer. This is especially true when you have a top 3 pass rusher in the league Von Miller commanding a double team constantly. It's not going to be the same type of individual production, but still pretty good.

On the other hand, Revis is a once in a decade type player, he's still in his prime and should be a top flight CB for another 3-5 years. He's basically prime Champ Bailey. Champ in his prime probably had slightly better top end speed, but Revis is better at jamming the line of scrimmage. In terms of forcing turnovers, Revis basically shuts down half of the field and would allow our other very good on ball defenders like Champ to ball-hawk and choke up on TE's in the slot. Basically, Champ could play up in run support and take away a ton of the shallow crossing routes and TE drags that teams like New England kill us with. Plus with Revis on the field, you can provide Champ with help over the top with speed receivers as he gets older.

It would suck to lose Doom, but long-term I think Revis gets us closer to the SB. You can find situational pass-rushers in every draft and in FA. Truly top flight CB's?

Woodson in his prime, Champ in his prime, and Revis. He's that good.

Great post!

NFLBRONCO
03-05-2013, 10:44 AM
It's something to talk about whether it happens or not.

socalorado
03-05-2013, 10:49 AM
I am fairly confident that a rotation of Ayers, Wolfe, Malik Jackson, and a potential FA/draft pick could still be pretty effective rushing the passer. This is especially true when you have a top 3 pass rusher in the league Von Miller commanding a double team constantly. It's not going to be the same type of individual production, but still pretty good.

On the other hand, Revis is a once in a decade type player, he's still in his prime and should be a top flight CB for another 3-5 years. He's basically prime Champ Bailey. Champ in his prime probably had slightly better top end speed, but Revis is better at jamming the line of scrimmage. In terms of forcing turnovers, Revis basically shuts down half of the field and would allow our other very good on ball defenders like Champ to ball-hawk and choke up on TE's in the slot. Basically, Champ could play up in run support and take away a ton of the shallow crossing routes and TE drags that teams like New England kill us with. Plus with Revis on the field, you can provide Champ with help over the top with speed receivers as he gets older.

It would suck to lose Doom, but long-term I think Revis gets us closer to the SB. You can find situational pass-rushers in every draft and in FA. Truly top flight CB's?

Woodson in his prime, Champ in his prime, and Revis. He's that good.

I actually agree. I would rather give a healthy Revis all that $$$, than Doom.
And DEN can go get another rookie DE in a very deep draft at the position.
DEN gets younger and out of an overpaid, overhyped players contract.
And they recieve the best CB in the NFL. Pure, shut down corner.

Tombstone RJ
03-05-2013, 10:50 AM
i love the Broncos, but that game was not as close as the final score indicated. Baltimore was in control basically the entire game. Remove a RECORD setting day by Trindon and Baltimore wins by 2 TD's

One of those TDs was an INT by the ratbirds when the Broncos WR mauled but no call for pass interference. The ratbirds definitely got some ref help.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 10:53 AM
#1 in Sacks, #3 in pass defense.

If we blow our load dicking around with this facet of the defense while standing pat at MLB and DT, I don't know what to say other than someone's lost their effing mind.

Rabb
03-05-2013, 10:56 AM
#1 in Sacks, #3 in pass defense.

If we blow our load dicking around with this facet of the defense while standing pat at MLB and DT, I don't know what to say other than someone's lost their effing mind.

You keep beating this drum, you do understand though that they go hand in hand...right?

Requiem
03-05-2013, 10:57 AM
You keep beating this drum, you do understand though that they go hand in hand...right?

Prolly not.

Rabb
03-05-2013, 10:58 AM
Prolly not.

Well, no. It was the same tone I use with my kids when I know exactly who set the living room on fire. I ask, just because I want to see their reaction.

maven
03-05-2013, 11:02 AM
Is it possible Denver ships a 1st/3rd and keep Doom?

TonyR
03-05-2013, 11:03 AM
I actually agree. I would rather give a healthy Revis all that $$$, than Doom.
And DEN can go get another rookie DE in a very deep draft at the position.
DEN gets younger and out of an overpaid, overhyped players contract.
And they recieve the best CB in the NFL. Pure, shut down corner.

I agree with all of this. But I'm not down with it if we also give up our 1st round pick...

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 11:05 AM
You keep beating this drum, you do understand though that they go hand in hand...right?

I totally agree, at least in one direction. Weakening your pass rush is no way to improve coverage. But I tend to think that a ferocious pass rush helps the secondary more than a top-tier secondary helps out the pass rush. If you look at some of the other top sacking teams, you won't see a bunch of elite secondaries.

Mostly though this is an issue of priorities. Do you spend resources on huge glaring holes you saw all year on defense, or on one part that looked a little concerning for part of one game, but otherwise was one of the best in the league?

Mogulseeker
03-05-2013, 11:08 AM
Ayers and a 3rd.

:wiggle:

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 11:09 AM
You mentioned above how you'd be upset if we got Dumervil, but I don't think that his production (sacks) would be hard to replace. It seems like the past 3-5 years, teams have had no problem getting pass rushers in the draft who come in and contribute right away in that regard. However, the # of rookie ready CB's who come in and contribute in such a manner is relatively small.

Champ, Revis, Harris, Bolden and Carter means we are set there for a while. Revis' cap hit gets negated if Dumervil is dished, and we can afford him down the road after Bailey hangs up his cleats and warms up for his HOF induction.

Denver being interested in this move (if they have indeed made an offer) signals to me that despite the depth of this CB class, the Broncos feel it is necessary to had a high quality player to their secondary for the short and long-term benefit of the team.

Given the pass rushers in FA, etc. -- it seems they would rather take a shot there to replace Dumervil and gaining another All-Pro CB instead of bringing in guys who would have a several year learning curve.

At the end of the day, I would be surprised if this happened. I don't think the Jets can get a better offer than Dumervil + 2nd / Dumervil + 3rd. They are getting an impact 3-4 OLB and a high selection. It is probably better than just picks for them.

Name a rookie picked at #28 or later that has contributed as much as Doom did last season.

Like, ever, in league history.

TonyR
03-05-2013, 11:15 AM
Speaking of the CB position, apparently Mike Klis keeps referring to Chris Harris as a nickel corner. See this article:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22717357/denver-broncos-offseason-needs-cb-dt-rb-ol

This prompts speculation about this coming from the Broncos themselves, which prompts further speculation about what it means as far as the draft or FA. Discussion of this, and several other items (such as Vickerson, Bannan, Terrance Knighton, Ahmad Bradshaw, Shonn Greene, the safety position, etc.) in the article linked below.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/pmfm-is-not-a-deep-thrower-lard

Rabb
03-05-2013, 11:17 AM
I totally agree, at least in one direction.

And this is where we will continue to not agree, which is ok. My entire point is, it's not one or the other...it's both, and in both directions.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 11:17 AM
I would take gholsten over Revis. SF did not tag him and Schefter is reporting he's gonna be gone from SF. Gholsten is young and would be your cornerstone at safety for a long time. Dude can ball

SonOfLe-loLang
03-05-2013, 11:18 AM
One of those TDs was an INT by the ratbirds when the Broncos WR mauled but no call for pass interference. The ratbirds definitely got some ref help.

I cant find his original post, but Baltimore was in control the entire day? Does he realize that they scored on two LONG plays too? What a dumb argument.

Mogulseeker
03-05-2013, 11:20 AM
Doom for Revis makes sense consideing Denver could draft a DE in the first and there are some good FA options. I have mentioned it before I would love Paul Kruger and dumping Dooms salary. I think he could be had at half the price.

Doom for Revis and pick up Kruger?

I'm on board.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 11:23 AM
Name a rookie picked at #28 or later that has contributed as much as Doom did last season.

Like, ever, in league history.

Jared Allen maybe?

Requiem
03-05-2013, 11:24 AM
Name a rookie picked at #28 or later that has contributed as much as Doom did last season.

Like, ever, in league history.

Last year was Dumervil's sixth year in the league. He was also a fourth round selection. Why should I compare a rookie's # to a veteran NFL player? You are limiting the scope of your argument to make it harder for me to come up with a rebuttal. Us picking at #28 has nothing to do with this. I am not advocating drafting his replacement at #28 if he is dished in a trade for Revis. Though I do agree that the premium pass rushers are drafted early. There have been some great ones who came later in the draft.

How about Justin Houston? Third rounder. Second year in the league and he had a great year. (OLB 3-4)

How about Geno Atkins? Fourth round selection, third year player -- "In 2012, Atkins recorded 53 tackles, forced 4 fumbles, set a franchise record with 12.5 sacks, and was selected at a starter in the pro bowl as the Bengals made the playoffs for the second consecutive year."

Henry Melton played DE for Texas in college and in a few years, became an extremely productive player moving outside and in on the DL.

Three pro-bowlers selected in the middle rounds off the top of my head in the past several years. This list does not include players who are better run defenders than Elvis, and have a good amount of sacks each year at their position.

You are trying to act like a pass rusher in the NFL isn't replaceable. Over 40 guys in the NFL had 7.0+ sacks last year, 20 with over 10. Stop kidding yourself. Dumervil's replacement (if he is traded) may not have 11 sacks his first year, but he can certainly get there.

And no, I don't think 9 sacks a year would be hard to replace (years he played DE, OLB not figured in because we do not run a 3-4) by rotation or draft choice down the road.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 11:25 AM
I would take gholsten over Revis. SF did not tag him and Schefter is reporting he's gonna be gone from SF. Gholsten is young and would be your cornerstone at safety for a long time. Dude can ball

I am down for this. Gholsten and a Moore backfield would be awesome.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 11:26 AM
Jared Allen maybe?

That'll work.

Dedhed
03-05-2013, 11:29 AM
Name a rookie picked at #28 or later that has contributed as much as Doom did last season.

Like, ever, in league history.

Elvis Dumervil

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 11:39 AM
Last year was Dumervil's sixth year in the league. He was also a fourth round selection. Why should I compare a rookie's # to a veteran NFL player? You are limiting the scope of your argument to make it harder for me to come up with a rebuttal. Us picking at #28 has nothing to do with this. I am not advocating drafting his replacement at #28 if he is dished in a trade for Revis. Though I do agree that the premium pass rushers are drafted early. There have been some great ones who came later in the draft.

How about Justin Houston? Third rounder. Second year in the league and he had a great year. (OLB 3-4)

How about Geno Atkins? Fourth round selection, third year player -- "In 2012, Atkins recorded 53 tackles, forced 4 fumbles, set a franchise record with 12.5 sacks, and was selected at a starter in the pro bowl as the Bengals made the playoffs for the second consecutive year."

Henry Melton played DE for Texas in college and in a few years, became an extremely productive player moving outside and in on the DL.

Three pro-bowlers selected in the middle rounds off the top of my head in the past several years. This list does not include players who are better run defenders than Elvis, and have a good amount of sacks each year at their position.

You are trying to act like a pass rusher in the NFL isn't replaceable. Over 40 guys in the NFL had 7.0+ sacks last year, 20 with over 10. Stop kidding yourself. Dumervil's replacement (if he is traded) may not have 11 sacks his first year, but he can certainly get there.

And no, I don't think 9 sacks a year would be hard to replace (years he played DE, OLB not figured in because we do not run a 3-4) by rotation or draft choice down the road.

You're the one that said "contribute right away."

Doom was a top ten pass rusher last season in total pressures. Revis, if healthy, would be better than him. But giving up Doom plus picks I'm not entirely comfortable with.

Also, he played standing up this season, and he played with his hand in the dirt when we were a 3-4. Separating out his seasons like that is stupid.

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 11:41 AM
Jared Allen maybe?

He had 9 sacks his rookie season. That is less than Doom had this season.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 11:41 AM
Last year was Dumervil's sixth year in the league. He was also a fourth round selection. Why should I compare a rookie's # to a veteran NFL player? You are limiting the scope of your argument to make it harder for me to come up with a rebuttal. Us picking at #28 has nothing to do with this. I am not advocating drafting his replacement at #28 if he is dished in a trade for Revis. Though I do agree that the premium pass rushers are drafted early. There have been some great ones who came later in the draft.

How about Justin Houston? Third rounder. Second year in the league and he had a great year. (OLB 3-4)

How about Geno Atkins? Fourth round selection, third year player -- "In 2012, Atkins recorded 53 tackles, forced 4 fumbles, set a franchise record with 12.5 sacks, and was selected at a starter in the pro bowl as the Bengals made the playoffs for the second consecutive year."

Henry Melton played DE for Texas in college and in a few years, became an extremely productive player moving outside and in on the DL.

Three pro-bowlers selected in the middle rounds off the top of my head in the past several years. This list does not include players who are better run defenders than Elvis, and have a good amount of sacks each year at their position.

You are trying to act like a pass rusher in the NFL isn't replaceable. Over 40 guys in the NFL had 7.0+ sacks last year, 20 with over 10. Stop kidding yourself. Dumervil's replacement (if he is traded) may not have 11 sacks his first year, but he can certainly get there.

And no, I don't think 9 sacks a year would be hard to replace (years he played DE, OLB not figured in because we do not run a 3-4) by rotation or draft choice down the road.

Agree with some of you post, but the part in bold... you know there is a reason Elway picked Von. He said something along the lines that after having a franshice QB & LT, the next most important thing is the headhunter.

Sorry but not many defensive linemen have had a start to their career like Doom's first 6 years. I can't believe the lack of respect he gets around here. Finding that DE that can put a consistent pass rush on the QBs year and year out is not something done as simple as you imply. Sure he struggles a bit against the run, which is more baffling when talking about replacing him with Freeney as some poster says (he is basically and Older broken down Doom that's even worst against the run). But apart from the 10+ sacks/season he gets you he gets you a consistent push. Go look up how many QB hurries he was accounted for.

Doom is not a part you can replace and expect similar production from. You guys do understand that if he averages 12 sacks/season over the next 3 years and he would be a 100 sack career artist 9 years into his career? Find me a 4th round pick that has done that recently.

Bacchus
03-05-2013, 11:42 AM
I would do it in a heart beat if we are able to sign Freeney. A rotation of Ayers and Freeney plus Revis = better than Doom.

You would give up Doom and a 1st right? That is what it will take.

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 11:42 AM
Elvis Dumervil

Doom had 8.5 sacks his rookie year, which is less than he had this season.

bpc
03-05-2013, 11:44 AM
The trade would make a lot of sense. Doom moves to a 3-4 which would be his best position as he gets older highlighting his best attributes. The Jets also need a pass rusher. They get rid of Revis who's been a headache for them, adds a pass rusher and generates a high draft pick to help rebuild with. For Denver it nets us another great CB who could help us longterm as we transition from Champ's prime years while adding a playmaker in an ever increasing passing league. It also sheds Doom's contract which we can use to sign Revis long term, and quietly adds some size up front against the run, something we desperately need to revamp.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 11:45 AM
He had 9 sacks his rookie season. That is less than Doom had this season.

And how many sacks did Elvis Dumervil have as a rookie?

Oh wait, you already answered that.

Ha!

socalorado
03-05-2013, 11:46 AM
I agree with all of this. But I'm not down with it if we also give up our 1st round pick...

No no! Me either! a 3rd. And Doom.
How many sacks did Doom have when DEN played in the 3-4?
Wasnt it like 16-17 in 1 season!?!?!
I say leverage with NYJ Dooms accomplishments in being able to
be productive in a 3-4 or a 4-3 and they get a 3rd round pick to rebuild their team. NYJ have had bust after bust at DE, and are in desperate need of a solid DE.
If they complain, hang up.

Punisher
03-05-2013, 11:47 AM
Ayers and a 3rd.

Ayers and a 2nd would do the job

Requiem
03-05-2013, 11:48 AM
You're the one that said "contribute right away."

Doom was a top ten pass rusher last season in total pressures. Revis, if healthy, would be better than him. But giving up Doom plus picks I'm not entirely comfortable with.

Also, he played standing up this season, and he played with his hand in the dirt when we were a 3-4. Separating out his seasons like that is stupid.

Why is it stupid? Highlighting that his best season was as a 3-4 OLB when we offered him to a team in a trade (assuming) runs a 3-4 sure makes sense. As a DE in this league, he has averaged 9 sacks a season. Pretty solid, but there are a lot of other people who have done that too.

Four players were given that were selected in rounds 3 and 4 who have had great impact in this league. They are Pro-Bowl players. So don't act like it is impossible for him to be replaced.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 11:49 AM
He had 9 sacks his rookie season. That is less than Doom had this season.

Ok.

What about Al "bubba" Baker? He went off his rookie year. Not sure what Deacon Jones did his rookie year

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 11:50 AM
And how many sacks did Elvis Dumervil have as a rookie?

Oh wait, you already answered that.

Ha!

Are you having reading comprehension issues? Two premiere pass rushers contributed less in their rookie seasons than Doom did this season, reinforcing my point that you can't get late picks to contribute "right away" as you claimed.

razorwire77
03-05-2013, 11:53 AM
The trade would make a lot of sense. Doom moves to a 3-4 which would be his best position as he gets older highlighting his best attributes. The Jets also need a pass rusher. They get rid of Revis who's been a headache for them, adds a pass rusher and generates a high draft pick to help rebuild with. For Denver it nets us another great CB who could help us longterm as we transition from Champ's prime years while adding a playmaker in an ever increasing passing league. It also sheds Doom's contract which we can use to sign Revis long term, and quietly adds some size up front against the run, something we desperately need to revamp.

Ding ding ding.

Also, Doom absolutely blows up lower-tier tackles TE's and RB's in pass protection. But I'm hard pressed to think of a time where he beat a top 8 tackle in a one-on-one situation. I'm sure it's happened, but the better tackles in the league seem to use good footwork to envelop him with their mass. There's also his issues in 4-3 run support. He got better this season, but he's still not great.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 11:54 AM
Why is it stupid? Highlighting that his best season was as a 3-4 OLB when we offered him to a team in a trade (assuming) runs a 3-4 sure makes sense. As a DE in this league, he has averaged 9 sacks a season. Pretty solid, but there are a lot of other people who have done that too.

Four players were given that were selected in rounds 3 and 4 who have had great impact in this league. They are Pro-Bowl players. So don't act like it is impossible for him to be replaced.

That is a shady stat. In his 17 sack season most of his sacks came with the hand on the dirt.

Mediator12
03-05-2013, 11:55 AM
The answer is 2006 Mark Anderson Bears Round 5 pick 26 and 12 sacks as a Part time pass rusher. Loved that kid coming out, Bears screwed him up big time. Now, He is in BUF backing up Super mario.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 11:55 AM
There is a reason Elway picked Von. He said something along the lines that after having a franshice QB & LT, the next most important thing is the headhunter.

Sorry but not many defensive linemen have had a start to their career like Doom's first 6 years. I can't believe the lack of respect he gets around here. Finding that DE that can put a consistent pass rush on the QBs year and year out is not something done as simple as you imply. Sure he struggles a bit against the run, which is more baffling when talking about replacing him with Freeney as some poster says (he is basically and Older broken down Doom that's even worst against the run). But apart from the 10+ sacks/season he gets you he gets you a consistent push. Go look up how many QB hurries he was accounted for.

Doom is not a part you can replace and expect similar production from. You guys do understand that if he averages 12 sacks/season over the next 3 years and he would be a 100 sack career artist 9 years into his career? Find me a 4th round pick that has done that recently.

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 11:57 AM
Ok.

What about Al "bubba" Baker? He went off his rookie year. Not sure what Deacon Jones did his rookie year

They didn't record sacks back then. During the 9 seasons Baker played when they did record sacks, he had one season better than Doom's 2012 season.

razorwire77
03-05-2013, 12:03 PM
Doom is not a part you can replace and expect similar production from. You guys do understand that if he averages 12 sacks/season over the next 3 years and he would be a 100 sack career artist 9 years into his career? Find me a 4th round pick that has done that recently.

The idea wouldn't be to replace his individual sack numbers, but find a couple of guys to rotate depending to offset his production. You need to find a couple of guys who can get 5-7 sacks each. In an increasingly specialized NFL, that's not all that difficult to replace.

Finding a guy that you can put in man press-coverage with Brandon Marshall, Bowe, or even a Vernon Davis and have him hold his own is worth his weight in gold. We've been spoiled with Champ in that regard for years. Champ, is still very good, but gone are the days where we can assume he can run down the field stride for stride with a 24-year-old 4.4 WR. We need to transition and improve as the divisional showed us. That, and Doom's contract is gigantic.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 12:13 PM
Are you having reading comprehension issues? Two premiere pass rushers contributed less in their rookie seasons than Doom did this season, reinforcing my point that you can't get late picks to contribute "right away" as you claimed.

Except you can. And it doesn't have to be one guy. It can be in a rotational role as I also suggested earlier. His production can be replaced, whether you like to believe it to not.

How many rookies do you honestly think perform to the level of a six year pro? Jesus Christ, you come up with some bat**** stuff. You are stretching the bar further and further to justify your man love for Dumervil. Get over it. The Broncos will go on with or without him. I'd be fine either way.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 12:14 PM
The answer is 2006 Mark Anderson Bears Round 5 pick 26 and 12 sacks as a Part time pass rusher. Loved that kid coming out, Bears screwed him up big time. Now, He is in BUF backing up Super mario.

But dude, there was nobody EVER in the NFL who had that kind of production that was picked late. Just ask MagicHef. Dumervil was the first ever mid-round selection to perform at a high level in his sixth year!? Bazing.

Mediator12
03-05-2013, 12:15 PM
There is a reason Elway picked Von. He said something along the lines that after having a franshice QB & LT, the next most important thing is the headhunter.

Sorry but not many defensive linemen have had a start to their career like Doom's first 6 years. I can't believe the lack of respect he gets around here. Finding that DE that can put a consistent pass rush on the QBs year and year out is not something done as simple as you imply. Sure he struggles a bit against the run, which is more baffling when talking about replacing him with Freeney as some poster says (he is basically and Older broken down Doom that's even worst against the run). But apart from the 10+ sacks/season he gets you he gets you a consistent push. Go look up how many QB hurries he was accounted for.

Doom is not a part you can replace and expect similar production from. You guys do understand that if he averages 12 sacks/season over the next 3 years and he would be a 100 sack career artist 9 years into his career? Find me a 4th round pick that has done that recently.

Way too much respect for Dumervil and the actual impact he has on opposing offenses IMHO. He is a pass rusher, but he is not anything else. And he is the second best Pass rusher on the team now, and the highest paid defender by a mile. He greatly benefits from Miller now, and he will degrade in effectiveness as soon as he no longer has the second best pass rusher in the league on his side.

He is not scheme friendly at all, and while his Pass rush is important to this team, his value in doing so anymore is negative to his cap hit. He is still a one trick pony, and there are a LOT of potential one trick ponies out there who would thrive with Miller occupying special attention in this scheme.

I like Dumervil, but DEN severely overpaid the guy and now they have a chance to do something about it.

Revis is a weird thing though. He just injured his best tool to cover and wants to get paid after missing most of the season. However, The Jets NEVER paid him market value and the GM on the street right now (Tannenbaum) screwed with him for years. He wants out of the Jets implosion, and who are no longer even remotely a contender, and would be pretty damn happy in DEN with his pal Bailey.

He could be a crucial piece to making this defense even more difficult to play against, as he presents unique problems for teams, that Dumervil does not. People also forget he plays the run really damn well, something Dumervil never has done. If you put revis on the top WR, Bailey can and will cover the TE matchup nightmare from the Slot, and Harris and Carter can still cover the #2 WR and #3WR with extra safety help. Bailey does not have to move to safety to cover the matchup TE's, he covered Gonzo and Gates back in the early days here in the red zone. You know back when DEN had the top TE defense in the league despite 2 all-pro TE's twice a year.

The one thing I do not want is to give up a second rounder in the deal. Hell, give up a fourth and third next year, this damn draft is way too deep to hand over a top 90 pick IMHO.

I hope they explore this, but they have to make it work for everybody to get it done.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 12:16 PM
The idea wouldn't be to replace his individual sack numbers, but find a couple of guys to rotate depending to offset his production. You need to find a couple of guys who can get 5-7 sacks each. In an increasingly specialized NFL, that's not all that difficult to replace.

Finding a guy that you can put in man press-coverage with Brandon Marshall, Bowe, or even a Vernon Davis and have him hold his own is worth his weight in gold. We've been spoiled with Champ in that regard for years. Champ, is still very good, but gone are the days where we can assume he can run down the field stride for stride with a 24-year-old 4.4 WR. We need to transition and improve as the divisional showed us. That, and Doom's contract is gigantic.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/elvis-dumervil/

I wouldn't consider that contract gigantic for somebody that probably will hit the 100 sack career mark. Specially considering that he gets cheaper by the year. We could always approach him with a restructure to help out the team, but in no way you move Doom.

If finding 5-7 sack players is so easy, why did we suck so bad at generating sack numbers for most of the past decade? We had an abundant amount of role players and we rarely got that type of production. Sorry man. Don't buy it. Doom is a special Headhunter. You don't replace his type with role players.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 12:18 PM
They didn't record sacks back then. During the 9 seasons Baker played when they did record sacks, he had one season better than Doom's 2012 season.

Ya but there were reports that Baker had up to 20 sacks his rookie year.

Mediator has thrown in a name too

DivineLegion
03-05-2013, 12:23 PM
If Elvis is the cornerstone of the trade from the Broncos end, then the compensation should be about even. I wouldn't expect the Broncos to tag a 1st on onto the trade because of the relative age, and production of both players. The only way this trade would piss me off is if the Broncos coincided a first round pick.

I think our front office will hold out for a second or third, and Elvis making this a good trade. Champ is 35, and in the twilight of his HOF career. He is the kind of player that comes around once every decade, and the Broncos have the opportunity to replace him with a similar generational player on a seven year lease if you assume Revis stays productive as long as Champ. You also put yourself in a situation where you have three of the best corners in league (Chris Harris is hands down the best nickle corner), along with arguably the best pass rusher in the league; that is legendary potential in today's pass happy NFL.

The challenge is replacing the production of Elvis Dumervile with either a veteran, or rookie DE. Given the Brincos defense last fall, you would need a guy who is quick off the edge in a wide 9 or 7 technique. This is where a guy like Cliff Avril, Osi Umenyiora, or Dwight Freeney come in. You also have the opportunity to upgrade the position by acquiring a guy like Michael Bennett who can stop the run, and generated 8 sacks last season. There are definitely short term options available, and some of them might come relatively cheap if the Broncos move early, because it looks like there is going to be a pretty substantial bidding war over Kruger to the tune of 9 million a season.

Then there is the draft, not just any draft either, a big ugly draft loaded with linemen. If my assumption in believing John can get away with only a second in compensation, the Broncos will have the ability to draft a young DE with pass rushing ability as a long term solution to losing Elvis. Couple this prospect with the plethora of aging pass rushers hitting the market this offseason (ie Osi & Freeney) who could be attained at reasonable contracts, and you lost little in letting Elvis go. That is why this trade makes sense, its a matter of forward thinking. You stack the defense for an abbreviated window, while still building for the future by acquiring players at key positions that are about to be voided on your team. John made it very clear when he selected Brock that he was not building this team in 4-5 year windows. That selection gave me the impression that he is thinking about how this team is going to look long term, and acquiring players for both the short and long term to keep it competitive. That is what this trade would indicate, and that's why I like it. I love Doom, but this trade makes too much sense to pass up.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 12:23 PM
The answer is 2006 Mark Anderson Bears Round 5 pick 26 and 12 sacks as a Part time pass rusher. Loved that kid coming out, Bears screwed him up big time. Now, He is in BUF backing up Super mario.

Mediator with the top shelf knowledge. Forgot about Anderson. I think he was up for rookie of the year that year. And drafted in the 5th makes it even more a proven point

Requiem
03-05-2013, 12:26 PM
Mediator with the top shelf knowledge. Forgot about Anderson. I think he was up for rookie of the year that year. And drafted in the 5th makes it even more a proven point

Mark Anderson was a made up player in Madden. Don't kid yourself. MagicHef is so right. Never happened.

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 12:27 PM
Except you can. And it doesn't have to be one guy. It can be in a rotational role as I also suggested earlier. His production can be replaced, whether you like to believe it to not.

How many rookies do you honestly think perform to the level of a six year pro? Jesus Christ, you come up with some bat**** stuff. You are stretching the bar further and further to justify your man love for Dumervil. Get over it. The Broncos will go on with or without him. I'd be fine either way.

You really have an interesting way of "reading." I never said any of those things.

I took issue with your statement that we could get a rookie to contribute right away, making Doom expendable. It's happened once, and maybe another time before they started recording sacks, so I wouldn't count on it happening for us this season.

If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.

ZONA
03-05-2013, 12:30 PM
Yeah but Von ain't going to have the same impact he had with a very competent pass rusher. A CB can be great and cover "half the field", but just like other teams did with Champ in his prime, you just throw it the other way. Plus with the evolution of the TE in the offensive schemes, you have that many other options to not challenge Revis.

Plus, what you talking about? Champ was a better corner than Revis in his prime. What did that get us? I remember way more Champ saying during those days the importance of having a consistent pass rush.

You can't just throw it the other way. Champ would be over there. Are you that brain dead you forgot Champ would be the other starting CB. With those 2 on the field, sorry but that's going to give Miller an extra 2nd or 2 to get there. And I think Ayers playing full time would be just as good as Doom. Maybe have a few less sacks but plays the run better so it's a wash. That said, not sure I would send Doom and our 1st pick. I would be ok with the 2nd pick.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 12:30 PM
If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.

Maybe, maybe not. But I bet we will do a better job sealing his side of the field and setting the edge in the run game with a replacement. :)

Bacchus
03-05-2013, 12:30 PM
You really have an interesting way of "reading." I never said any of those things.

I took issue with your statement that we could get a rookie to contribute right away, making Doom expendable. It's happened once, and maybe another time before they started recording sacks, so I wouldn't count on it happening for us this season.

If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.

I agree with that but the secondary play will be better. If Denver can do this with Doom and a 2nd and if they don't mind paying Revis $16 million a year than I would be fine with it. I'd hate to see Denver give up a 1st and Doom though.

NFLBRONCO
03-05-2013, 12:33 PM
Our pass rush sucked against all the top tier teams with Doom.

Rabb
03-05-2013, 12:34 PM
Way too much respect for Dumervil and the actual impact he has on opposing offenses IMHO. He is a pass rusher, but he is not anything else. And he is the second best Pass rusher on the team now, and the highest paid defender by a mile. He greatly benefits from Miller now, and he will degrade in effectiveness as soon as he no longer has the second best pass rusher in the league on his side.

He is not scheme friendly at all, and while his Pass rush is important to this team, his value in doing so anymore is negative to his cap hit. He is still a one trick pony, and there are a LOT of potential one trick ponies out there who would thrive with Miller occupying special attention in this scheme.

I like Dumervil, but DEN severely overpaid the guy and now they have a chance to do something about it.

Revis is a weird thing though. He just injured his best tool to cover and wants to get paid after missing most of the season. However, The Jets NEVER paid him market value and the GM on the street right now (Tannenbaum) screwed with him for years. He wants out of the Jets implosion, and who are no longer even remotely a contender, and would be pretty damn happy in DEN with his pal Bailey.

He could be a crucial piece to making this defense even more difficult to play against, as he presents unique problems for teams, that Dumervil does not. People also forget he plays the run really damn well, something Dumervil never has done. If you put revis on the top WR, Bailey can and will cover the TE matchup nightmare from the Slot, and Harris and Carter can still cover the #2 WR and #3WR with extra safety help. Bailey does not have to move to safety to cover the matchup TE's, he covered Gonzo and Gates back in the early days here in the red zone. You know back when DEN had the top TE defense in the league despite 2 all-pro TE's twice a year.

The one thing I do not want is to give up a second rounder in the deal. Hell, give up a fourth and third next year, this damn draft is way too deep to hand over a top 90 pick IMHO.

I hope they explore this, but they have to make it work for everybody to get it done.

aaaaannnnd scene

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 12:37 PM
You really have an interesting way of "reading." I never said any of those things.

I took issue with your statement that we could get a rookie to contribute right away, making Doom expendable. It's happened once, and maybe another time before they started recording sacks, so I wouldn't count on it happening for us this season.

If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.

You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?

Requiem
03-05-2013, 12:37 PM
Mediator is secretly Jack Del Rio.

DivineLegion
03-05-2013, 12:40 PM
You really have an interesting way of "reading." I never said any of those things.

I took issue with your statement that we could get a rookie to contribute right away, making Doom expendable. It's happened once, and maybe another time before they started recording sacks, so I wouldn't count on it happening for us this season.

If Doom is gone, I promise you our pass rush will not be as good as it was last year.

That's why you get a vet pass rusher on top of drafting a guy who you think can be a future upgrade to Doom; it's pretty simple really. I don't think anyone is discounting Dooms pass rushing ability, but you have to concede he is not a complete player. That means he can be replaced, and possibly upgraded. If he can be replaced/upgraded, and you can add the best cover corner in the league you have a win-win. You secure the CB position for another 7 years, and you have the opportunity to build around the core players that you have. The future of the team would be Osweiler, Clady, Revis, and Miller instead of Osweiler, Clady, Miller, and ???. The core for the short term is Manning, Clady, Miller, and Bailey, but two of those key prices are over the age of 35. We addressed the future of the QB position last April, now it's time to look at the CB position, and take action.


Current age of core players: 37/22, 26, 23, 35/???
Post trade: 22/37, 26, 23, 27/35


Do you see what I mean?

Rabb
03-05-2013, 12:40 PM
You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?

Because everyone loves to make these vacuum arguments. You see, there can be no other factor at all in these things. Once you accept that, this will all make sense.

By many people's logic, if we trade player A for player B, regardless of their position...there is no other factor to think about.

Just like if we lose player A, we better draft player B and he better be just as good as player A or it's a failure.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 12:42 PM
Malik Jackson could rip off 2,000 in this system.

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 12:43 PM
You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?

We don't draft at #2 this year, there's no Von in the late 1st.

Mogulseeker
03-05-2013, 12:45 PM
If Elvis is the cornerstone of the trade from the Broncos end, then the compensation should be about even. I wouldn't expect the Broncos to tag a 1st on onto the trade because of the relative age, and production of both players. The only way this trade would piss me off is if the Broncos coincided a first round pick.

I think our front office will hold out for a second or third, and Elvis making this a good trade. Champ is 35, and in the twilight of his HOF career. He is the kind of player that comes around once every decade, and the Broncos have the opportunity to replace him with a similar generational player on a seven year lease if you assume Revis stays productive as long as Champ. You also put yourself in a situation where you have three of the best corners in league (Chris Harris is hands down the best nickle corner), along with arguably the best pass rusher in the league; that is legendary potential in today's pass happy NFL.

The challenge is replacing the production of Elvis Dumervile with either a veteran, or rookie DE. Given the Brincos defense last fall, you would need a guy who is quick off the edge in a wide 9 or 7 technique. This is where a guy like Cliff Avril, Osi Umenyiora, or Dwight Freeney come in. You also have the opportunity to upgrade the position by acquiring a guy like Michael Bennett who can stop the run, and generated 8 sacks last season. There are definitely short term options available, and some of them might come relatively cheap if the Broncos move early, because it looks like there is going to be a pretty substantial bidding war over Kruger to the tune of 9 million a season.

Then there is the draft, not just any draft either, a big ugly draft loaded with linemen. If my assumption in believing John can get away with only a second in compensation, the Broncos will have the ability to draft a young DE with pass rushing ability as a long term solution to losing Elvis. Couple this prospect with the plethora of aging pass rushers hitting the market this offseason (ie Osi & Freeney) who could be attained at reasonable contracts, and you lost little in letting Elvis go. That is why this trade makes sense, its a matter of forward thinking. You stack the defense for an abbreviated window, while still building for the future by acquiring players at key positions that are about to be voided on your team. John made it very clear when he selected Brock that he was not building this team in 4-5 year windows. That selection gave me the impression that he is thinking about how this team is going to look long term, and acquiring players for both the short and long term to keep it competitive. That is what this trade would indicate, and that's why I like it. I love Doom, but this trade makes too much sense to pass up.

We can sign Kruger for the price of DJ and Mays. I figure Revis is going to be getting what Doom is getting... so it could be a wash.

NFLBRONCO
03-05-2013, 12:46 PM
If this move happens we need to sign Woodson too

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 12:52 PM
We don't draft at #2 this year, there's no Von in the late 1st.

So in order to be worth it in terms of value as Rabb just mentioned. Does a rookie or FA need to get 11.5 sacks and match Dooms production? The extra blanket coverage will make lesser talented players better when they have 2-3 extra seconds to reach the QB.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 12:56 PM
You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?

All very high 1st round picks And Wolfe was a second. Se the drop off? Sure we can luck out with a DE in the 1st and 2nd round. But our previous history with the position shows us that is more miss than hit. Or don't you ?
remember all those 1st and 2nd round picks we wasted on the position with Shanny? Ohhh that's right you probably weren't watching Bronco football by then. Until Miked picked up Doom in the 4th in 06, you could have said he had whiffed on most of the draft picks he had spent on DE's.

Mediator12
03-05-2013, 01:01 PM
Malik Jackson could rip off 2,000 in this system.

I still want to se them release Malik. Kid can ball, and I would love to see him play RDE in this system. He is a much better LDE, but hey we have this guy who got 6 sacks last year already playing there. If we lose Dumervils 12 sacks, do you think the 2 of them could each post 6 more next year to replace them? Nah, that's too complicated to understand.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 01:05 PM
I still want to se them release Malik. Kid can ball, and I would love to see him play RDE in this system. He is a much better LDE, but hey we have this guy who got 6 sacks last year already playing there. If we lose Dumervils 12 sacks, do you think the 2 of them could each post 6 more next year to replace them? Nah, that's too complicated to understand.

I hope Malik gets an opportunity to earn a lot of playing time this year on the squad! If the Broncos are entertaining the idea of shipping out Elvis, they MUST feel confident that Jackson/Ayers can replace his production or have someone like Wolfe in his second year to make the strides to improve upon his rookie season even more. Not to mention the possibility of another draft selection or FA. But no. . . it can't be done. /sarcasm.

;D

DivineLegion
03-05-2013, 01:09 PM
We can sign Kruger for the price of DJ and Mays. I figure Revis is going to be getting what Doom is getting... so it could be a wash.

I don't think the Broncos could afford to cut 13 and add 21 million in cap space. On top of that, I don't think Kruger is worth 9+ million a year. iWork's rather give 6-7 million a year to Michael Bennett for his 8 sacks, and complete play.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 01:15 PM
All very high 1st round picks And Wolfe was a second. Se the drop off? Sure we can luck out with a DE in the 1st and 2nd round. But our previous history with the position shows us that is more miss than hit. Or don't you ?
remember all those 1st and 2nd round picks we wasted on the position with Shanny? Ohhh that's right you probably weren't watching Bronco football by then. Until Miked picked up Doom in the 4th in 06, you could have said he had whiffed on most of the draft picks he had spent on DE's.

Pretty sure Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder (2007) were the turd****s we got in the year after we drafted Dumervil (2006). But yeah, we didn't do a good job of getting players to rush the passer. That means our scouting department sucked big time in their evaluations and we took bad players. What is even worse is that they are in the NFLl.

Meanwhile, LaMarr Woodley (2nd Round) -- Charles Johnson (4th Round) are still in the NFL having productive careers. (The two guys I loved -- I also loved Crowder too as a LDE. . .)

*sigh*

Bacchus
03-05-2013, 01:18 PM
All very high 1st round picks And Wolfe was a second. Se the drop off? Sure we can luck out with a DE in the 1st and 2nd round. But our previous history with the position shows us that is more miss than hit. Or don't you ?

remember all those 1st and 2nd round picks we wasted on the position with Shanny? Ohhh that's right you probably weren't watching Bronco football by then. Until Miked picked up Doom in the 4th in 06, you could have said he had whiffed on most of the draft picks he had spent on DE's.

Really, Shanahan drafted Pryce (hit) and Moss (miss) in the first round. In the second he drafted Tonovessi (miss), Monte Reagor (hit). Yeah, he just kept busting on ALL the DL picks he did in the first two rounds.

Oh yeah, I forgot Crowder in the second. So in 13 years he drafted 5 DL players int he first two rounds and hit on two of them. So spin away.

and how does his drafting correlate with Elway's drafting.

It seems to me Elway drafted Wolfe (hit) is batting 1000

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 01:20 PM
Pretty sure Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder (2007) were the turd****s we got in the year after we drafted Dumervil (2006). But yeah, we didn't do a good job of getting players to rush the passer. That means our scouting department sucked big time in their evaluations and we took bad players. What is even worse is that they are in the NFLl.

Meanwhile, LaMarr Woodley (2nd Round) -- Charles Johnson (4th Round) are still in the NFL having productive careers. (The two guys I loved -- I also loved Crowder too as a LDE. . .)

*sigh*

Yup... I actually liked Crowder too.

razorwire77
03-05-2013, 01:21 PM
Obviously, the draft is a crap-shoot, but there this is a pretty decent draft for DE prospects that will be there in the 2nd round as well.

Okafor, Sam Montgomery, I really like the Gholston kid from MSU, Mingo (although I think he's gone way before the bottom of the 2nd round.)

Requiem
03-05-2013, 01:29 PM
If Gholston actually stays dedicated to the game and puts in 100% effort like he SHOULD, he can be a game changer. Lets hope he doesn't end up like his dumb brother.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 01:33 PM
Really, Shanahan drafted Pryce (hit) and Moss (miss) in the first round. In the second he drafted Tonovessi (miss), Monte Reagor (hit). Yeah, he just kept busting on ALL the DL picks he did in the first two rounds.

Oh yeah, I forgot Crowder in the second. So in 13 years he drafted 5 DL players int he first two rounds and hit on two of them. So spin away.

and how does his drafting correlate with Elway's drafting.

It seems to me Elway drafted Wolfe (hit) is batting 1000

In what universe is Reagor a hit? He was a solid player. Nothing special.

So in his Bronco tenure of drafting (all rounds) he hit on 2 players that could do that job at a great level (pryce and doom). That just proves that elite talent doesn't come around very often. Take into account that I have now said all his picks spent on the position, only 2 of them have produced at elite lvl. 2 players picked almost 10 year apart. Spin away!

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 01:33 PM
You and I had this debate before.. Why can a rookie pass rusher not have an impact? Did Von and Aldon Smith have an impact as rookies? What about Irvin last year? Even Wolfe had 6 sacks, isn't than an impact?

He was saying at pick 28 or after wouldn't have the same impact(production) as doom this year. But Mark Anderson squashes that arguement

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 01:36 PM
It would have to include Dumervil. SF insiders seem to think the plethora of draft picks will not be challenged by another team. And Revis recently said he would love to play in SF with Harbaugh. Exit culliver. Enter Revis.

HAT
03-05-2013, 01:37 PM
If this happens it'll show me Elway is going offense in the draft.

Send Doom and the 1st for Revis and their 3rd....

Swope, Quessenbery, Stepfan in the 2nd/3rd, Fatty DT or S in the 4th, FA De to go along with Wolfe/Ayers/Jackson.....BAM

Bacchus
03-05-2013, 01:48 PM
In what universe is Reagor a hit? He was a solid player. Nothing special.

So in his Bronco tenure of drafting (all rounds) he hit on 2 players that could do that job at a great level (pryce and doom). That just proves that elite talent doesn't come around very often. Take into account that I have now said all his picks spent on the position, only 2 of them have produced at elite lvl. 2 players picked almost 10 year apart. Spin away!

He played 10 years in the NFL, that is a hit.

Bacchus
03-05-2013, 01:49 PM
If this happens it'll show me Elway is going offense in the draft.

Send Doom and the 1st for Revis and their 3rd....

Swope, Quessenbery, Stepfan in the 2nd/3rd, Fatty DT or S in the 4th, FA De to go along with Wolfe/Ayers/Jackson.....BAM

Maybe, I think they could still do this trade and then pick a DT in the first.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 02:08 PM
aaaaannnnd scene

You can make the case that Doom is overcompensated. But it's not like you can just pawn overcompensated players off on other teams free of charge. To get rid of overcompensating him, you're going to have to overcompensate any team involved in a trade for him.

Meaning we'll probably either eat part of Doom's contract anyway, or give up big time on the draft. Or both.

Don't know why you want to risk the league's best pass rush just so you can pad a mostly solid group of corners, all the while ignoring the softest part of the defense. Once you guarantee a player money, you always own that decision in one form or another.

razorwire77
03-05-2013, 02:09 PM
If Gholston actually stays dedicated to the game and puts in 100% effort like he SHOULD, he can be a game changer. Lets hope he doesn't end up like his dumb brother.

If he learned from his dumb ass brother, he could easily be a 10 + sack guy in the NFL. If not, bust city. Best boon or bust DE in the draft imo.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 02:26 PM
He was saying at pick 28 or after wouldn't have the same impact(production) as doom this year. But Mark Anderson squashes that arguement

I'm not sure that "It happened once 7 seasons ago" is quite squashing the argument. Whether it's impossible or just 99.5% unlikely doesn't matter all that much.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 02:28 PM
Comparing a rookie to what a guy who was in the NFl for 6 or 7 years can do was stupid to begin with. Hence why MagicHelp is no longer posting because he got pwned.

PPWENENNEDN!

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 02:31 PM
So in order to be worth it in terms of value as Rabb just mentioned. Does a rookie or FA need to get 11.5 sacks and match Dooms production? The extra blanket coverage will make lesser talented players better when they have 2-3 extra seconds to reach the QB.

?

I've already said this trade would make our defense better. I was just arguing with the idea that Doom is nothing special and could be easily replaced with a rookie.

Requiem
03-05-2013, 02:33 PM
Hopefully we get to put your assumption to the test.

Unscramble This Draft Prospect:

Kant Endiararc

DBroncos4life
03-05-2013, 02:35 PM
Hopefully we get to put your assumption to the test.

Unscramble This Draft Prospect:

Kant Endiararc

Tank Carradine

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 02:36 PM
I'm not sure that "It happened once 7 seasons ago" is quite squashing the argument. Whether it's impossible or just 99.5% unlikely doesn't matter all that much.

It's the OM though. Gotta make sure your words are 100% clear. Using "like ever. In league history" is gonna get refuted

Jetmeck
03-05-2013, 02:43 PM
this will be our undoing if true


Remember the same being said when we traded Portis for Bailey...........

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 02:45 PM
Comparing a rookie to what a guy who was in the NFl for 6 or 7 years can do was stupid to begin with. Hence why MagicHelp is no longer posting because he got pwned.

PPWENENNEDN!

You just live in your own little world, don't you? I was only comparing rookies to a 6th year pro because of your comments to the same effect.

txtebow
03-05-2013, 02:46 PM
Trade Doom and a 2nd for Revis and then sign John Abraham..ala ka zaam! Super Bowl.

LongDongJohnson
03-05-2013, 02:48 PM
Get Revis!

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 02:56 PM
It's the OM though. Gotta make sure your words are 100% clear. Using "like ever. In league history" is gonna get refuted

You're right, it turned out to be one guy, not zero like I thought. I'm very ashamed.

The point still stands, though.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 03:03 PM
You're right, it turned out to be one guy, not zero like I thought. I'm very ashamed.

The point still stands, though.

I'm just bustin your balls. The whole point is replacing dooms production with a rookie at 28 or after is almost impossible. Lost in all this is a lockdown corner who makes a QB hold onto the ball just a bit longer making sacks a bit easier. Doom would benefit with Revis on the field. If there was a way to not include doom it would be great. That's mostly likely not gonna happen though

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 03:15 PM
I'm just bustin your balls. The whole point is replacing dooms production with a rookie at 28 or after is almost impossible. Lost in all this is a lockdown corner who makes a QB hold onto the ball just a bit longer making sacks a bit easier. Doom would benefit with Revis on the field. If there was a way to not include doom it would be great. That's mostly likely not gonna happen though

I'd be all for a Doom-Revis trade, maybe even throwing in some late picks. I don't want to give up any valuable picks, though.

eddie mac
03-05-2013, 03:16 PM
Legwold says we've no interest in him or his $9m cap hit.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 03:17 PM
I'm just bustin your balls. The whole point is replacing dooms production with a rookie at 28 or after is almost impossible. Lost in all this is a lockdown corner who makes a QB hold onto the ball just a bit longer making sacks a bit easier. Doom would benefit with Revis on the field. If there was a way to not include doom it would be great. That's mostly likely not gonna happen though

I can't figure out why the Jets would want Doom at all. If getting rid of Revis is to help stockpile for a rebuild, it would make no sense to trade him for a cap anchor like Elvis. Unless the deal were ridiculously sweetened with cash or picks.

Sometimes you keep overpayed players when you're in win now mode. But that doesn't make sense for a team who's firesale-ing for the future.

socalorado
03-05-2013, 03:29 PM
Hopefully we get to put your assumption to the test.

Unscramble This Draft Prospect:

Kant Endiararc

John Engleberger!?!?!?!

Nailed it! Gimme another one!!!!
I am really good at these!!!!

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-05-2013, 03:35 PM
I can't figure out why the Jets would want Doom at all. If getting rid of Revis is to help stockpile for a rebuild, it would make no sense to trade him for a cap anchor like Elvis. Unless the deal were ridiculously sweetened with cash or picks.

Sometimes you keep overpayed players when you're in win now mode. But that doesn't make sense for a team who's firesale-ing for the future.

I can't figure out anything the jets do. Ha!

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 03:41 PM
I can't figure out anything the jets do. Ha!

I had a feeling someone was going to go there sooner or later. :)

cousinal11
03-05-2013, 03:59 PM
In any case, I'm not a fan. Especially if we're talking 1st or 2nd round picks.

Weren't you totally against signing Peyton this time last year? If my memory serves correct than let's go George Costanza and do the opposite of what you think.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 04:09 PM
Weren't you totally against signing Peyton this time last year? If my memory serves correct than let's go George Costanza and do the opposite of what you think.

That I was.

But I'm still hoping to be proven wrong. :)

Agamemnon
03-05-2013, 04:11 PM
I'm amazed at how him coming off a major injury and his propensity for holdouts carries so little weight with so many of you fools. If he was another Champ I could wrap my head around the idea, but he isn't another Champ. He's not the corner Champ was and he's not the person Champ has always been.

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 04:15 PM
?

I've already said this trade would make our defense better. I was just arguing with the idea that Doom is nothing special and could be easily replaced with a rookie.

I never said that. But "Doom's production" isn't anything that can't be replaced over time or in a rotation with another player..

Say you draft Oakfor or Tank C @28. And you rotate him in on passing downs, and Ayers plays base downs. Ayers gets 7 sacks as a full time starter, while a rookie gets 6.. Is production not improved? The run defense is probably a little improved and that's quality production from two players in a rotation, and the rookie is making an impact is he not? Cap numbers would be a fifth as much too!

rbackfactory80
03-05-2013, 04:18 PM
Talk about a no-brainer. Where do I sign?

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 04:31 PM
All very high 1st round picks And Wolfe was a second. Se the drop off? Sure we can luck out with a DE in the 1st and 2nd round. But our previous history with the position shows us that is more miss than hit. Or don't you ?
remember all those 1st and 2nd round picks we wasted on the position with Shanny? Ohhh that's right you probably weren't watching Bronco football by then. Until Miked picked up Doom in the 4th in 06, you could have said he had whiffed on most of the draft picks he had spent on DE's.

Impact is measured on more than stats. It's how such player facilitates for other players, and what he brings on each play, basing it soley on sack #'s is a very narrow minded view. History doesn't improve your football IQ.

Wolfe was a second round DT/DE. It's comparing apples to oranges. Yet you fail to see how shutting down the WRs is going to give the pass rush more time to get home. I think you and others fail to realize that. Holding on to Dooms past, to justify how important he is to the team. There will be more pass rushers to come through the NFL and have success than there will be shut down corners.

Name the true shutdown corners to play in the NFL..
Then name the good pass rushers to come through..

crush17
03-05-2013, 04:53 PM
Revis is not coming to Denver discussion is pointless.

BroncoBeavis
03-05-2013, 04:59 PM
Name the true shutdown corners to play in the NFL..
Then name the good pass rushers to come through..

Why do I get the feeling this would be an exercise in discounting every solid NFL corner while Cantonizing even moderately talented DE's?

Question... why do elite DE's make so damn much money (second only to QBs) if they're not worth what a "shutdown" corner is?

Action
03-05-2013, 05:23 PM
Why do I get the feeling this would be an exercise in discounting every solid NFL corner while Cantonizing even moderately talented DE's?

Question... why do elite DE's make so damn much money (second only to QBs) if they're not worth what a "shutdown" corner is?

To be fair, there are better DE's right now than there are CB's... (subjective to their position)

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 05:27 PM
To be fair, there are better DE's right now than there are CB's... (subjective to their position)

Not just right now, but through much of the history of the game too.

broncosteven
03-05-2013, 05:29 PM
Doom for Revis and pick up Kruger?

I'm on board.

I would be for this. Kruger didn't play a lot but he did lead the team in sacks and had a great play against us and one in the SB.

He is a kid on the way up.

I would hate to see Doom go but his cap hit is huge, if we got Kruger I would feel less pain about losing Doom.

I wonder if we ship Doom out if they move Wolfe to DE full time and plan on drafting or picking over FA stopgaps for another year?

I would love to see Ayers leave but his cap hit wouldn't help us out down the road as much as Dooms will.

kent156
03-05-2013, 06:48 PM
the jets do run a 3/4 defense and doom had his best year in that system maybe doom and a conditional pick on how well revis plays

RunSilentRunDeep
03-05-2013, 07:32 PM
The Jets are in cap hell. They can't take Dumervil on. They brought a new GM in to restore order. Ripping Doom's deal up means mortgaging the future on 29-year-old, undersized player. Why would Jets do that when they are in the middle of a complete tear down?

Lestat
03-05-2013, 07:40 PM
any trade involving a first for Revis is a non starter for me. a couple of seconds, a player and some other picks yes. but no way in hell should we deal a first and have to pay him.

extralife
03-05-2013, 08:06 PM
I would be for this. Kruger didn't play a lot but he did lead the team in sacks and had a great play against us and one in the SB.

He is a kid on the way up.

I would hate to see Doom go but his cap hit is huge, if we got Kruger I would feel less pain about losing Doom.

I wonder if we ship Doom out if they move Wolfe to DE full time and plan on drafting or picking over FA stopgaps for another year?

I would love to see Ayers leave but his cap hit wouldn't help us out down the road as much as Dooms will.

Revis + Kruger would cost about ten million more than Doom. Where you getting that money from?

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 08:17 PM
Revis + Kruger would cost about ten million more than Doom. Where you getting that money from?

Lonely Star... Is that you?

extralife
03-05-2013, 08:18 PM
Are you disputing that? Think Revis is going to play for 8 million because he loves the Broncos?

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 08:26 PM
Lonely Star... Is that you?

Actually he is right... Revis will be in the 15+ million range and Kruger for sure will be a 6-7 mill/year signing.

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 08:28 PM
Are you disputing that? Think Revis is going to play for 8 million because he loves the Broncos?

That's his cap figure for this year, unless he had a reworked deal..

DBroncos4life
03-05-2013, 08:29 PM
Lonely Star... Is that you?

I highly doubt the Jets could even afford the trade.

extralife
03-05-2013, 08:32 PM
That's his cap figure for this year, unless he had a reworked deal..

and Revis has a long history of playing when his cap number is low, definitely. his agent has already said 15 million or bust.

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 08:32 PM
Actually he is right... Revis will be in the 15+ million range and Kruger for sure will be a 6-7 mill/year signing.

There's the voice of reason..

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 08:34 PM
and Revis has a long history of playing when his cap number is low, definitely. his agent has already said 15 million or bust.

How did my joking comment of Lonley Star turn into this..?

We could afford Revis if we wanted him as a Bronco.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 08:47 PM
That's his cap figure for this year, unless he had a reworked deal..

well, if we are going to get Revis, we better sign him to a long term contract. For that to happen he is going to have to get what he is rumored to be seeking. Being the highest paid defensive player.

If that is true, and since most around here say that top CB are more important than top DE, then his starting point will be Mario Williams contract. Revis is kryptonite for a lot of factors.

RunSilentRunDeep
03-05-2013, 08:48 PM
Revis would only count $6M against Denver's cap without a reworked deal. If any team trades for him (the Niners) and are okay with him being a one-year rental, what's Revis going to do? Since his contract doesn't allow him to be tagged after 2013, he has no choice but to show up and play -- and play well -- at some point. If he holds out the first part of the season, then he's just that much cheaper.

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 08:54 PM
Revis would only count $6M against Denver's cap without a reworked deal. If any team trades for him (the Niners) and are okay with him being a one-year rental, what's Revis going to do? Since his contract doesn't allow him to be tagged after 2013, he has no choice but to show up and play -- and play well -- at some point. If he holds out the first part of the season, then he's just that much cheaper.

So are you implying that we trade Doom and the rumored 1st for a 1 year rental with no guarantee of him signing with us? Lol... thanks but no thanks. Some people around here...

Bmore Manning
03-05-2013, 08:58 PM
How did talking about his talents and potential impact become his cap figures?

Heyneck
03-05-2013, 09:04 PM
How did talking about his talents and potential impact become his cap figures?

Becuase if you are going to talk about signing Revis, we better get him an extension, and if he does agree, then that means he is getting some serious amount of cash. His agent, Ryan and himself talk about how they view him as the best defensive player in all of football.

MagicHef
03-05-2013, 10:27 PM
I never said that. But "Doom's production" isn't anything that can't be replaced over time or in a rotation with another player..

Say you draft Oakfor or Tank C @28. And you rotate him in on passing downs, and Ayers plays base downs. Ayers gets 7 sacks as a full time starter, while a rookie gets 6.. Is production not improved? The run defense is probably a little improved and that's quality production from two players in a rotation, and the rookie is making an impact is he not? Cap numbers would be a fifth as much too!

Your plan hinges on Ayers getting more sacks than he's ever had before, while only playing run downs. That's all I'll say.

razorwire77
03-05-2013, 11:27 PM
Sigh. There's no way Denver would pony up a 1st rounder and Doom for Revis in a one year rental situation. Clearly, a reworked contract would be a part of such an enormous deal.

maven
03-06-2013, 01:21 AM
The Jets are in cap hell. They can't take Dumervil on. They brought a new GM in to restore order. Ripping Doom's deal up means mortgaging the future on 29-year-old, undersized player. Why would Jets do that when they are in the middle of a complete tear down?

That is a good point. It would be best to trade pics for revis. Jets will probably have another bad season. Revis gone, Ryan fired, Sanchez cut. Best to start to tear the jets apart now and after next season.

RunSilentRunDeep
03-06-2013, 03:03 AM
So are you implying that we trade Doom and the rumored 1st for a 1 year rental with no guarantee of him signing with us? Lol... thanks but no thanks. Some people around here...

Lol (Sign of the Dork). Some people around here assume too much. I wasn't implying anything, only correcting the what Revis' cap charge would be -- it's $6M, not $8M -- and pointing out that a contending team like the Niners (with 15 picks) wouldn't be forced to give Revis a new deal.

rmsanger
03-06-2013, 04:03 AM
would rather save the pick + doom and sign nnamdi. We need to ask Champ to take a paycut due to his level of play and we should be set.

Bmore Manning
03-06-2013, 05:18 AM
Your plan hinges on Ayers getting more sacks than he's ever had before, while only playing run downs. That's all I'll say.

Not every team runs on first and second down.. Ayers will kick inside on passing downs along with Wolfe.. So I'm not sure why 7 sacks for Ayers who will be on the field for an additional 400 snaps can't get 7 sacks and a rookie 5-6...

BroncoInferno
03-06-2013, 06:24 AM
Schefter was on Mike and Mike this morning saying basically that the Jets will be lucky to get a 2nd and a 3rd. He doubts if anyone will part with a 1st, and he didn't mention them any other players as potentially part of a deal. A New York paper (forget which one) said that San Fran and Atlanta were ready to deal.

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 06:35 AM
would rather save the pick + doom and sign nnamdi. We need to ask Champ to take a paycut due to his level of play and we should be set.

Two bad plays and you're asking for pay cuts? FWIW Peyton threw more than a couple of bad passes that game. How much should he give back?

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 06:39 AM
Lol (Sign of the Dork). Some people around here assume too much. I wasn't implying anything, only correcting the what Revis' cap charge would be -- it's $6M, not $8M -- and pointing out that a contending team like the Niners (with 15 picks) wouldn't be forced to give Revis a new deal.

Nobody's trading for Revis without inking a new deal. And Revis isn't going to sign anything anywhere close to 6m.

SportinOne
03-06-2013, 07:38 AM
have you people lost your mind?????

Revis is coming off of a season ending injury. He's unproven. We have no idea how good he can be, this isn't like Peyton Manning. Revis can't smart his way to covering a fast receiver if his leg won't cooperate.

Doom is a very good player for us. He's a game changer at times. The reason I know that Dumervil is not the person included is because the Broncos coaches and front office KNOW how important Dumervil is to this team. No way we trade him. And honestly Ayers looked very strong at times last year it would be a shame to see him go.

Revis for picks? yeah, we're in Win-now. Revis for integral players on our defense? No ****ing way.

TonyR
03-06-2013, 07:52 AM
would rather save the pick + doom and sign nnamdi.

I brought this very thing up for discussion earlier in the thread but it got zero traction for some reason. There are/will be several other FA CBs worth discussing as well...

Aqib Talib
Brent Grimes
Sean Smith
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
Chris Houston
Cary Williams
Derek Cox
E.J. Biggers
Mike Jenkins
Bradley Fletcher
Keenan Lewis
Dunta Robinson
Sheldon Brown
Quentin Jammer
Brice McCain
Leodis McKelvin
Terence Newman
Kyle Arrington
Tracy Porter
Antoine Cason
Rashean Mathis
Jacob Lacey
Pacman Jones
Jerraud Powers
Joselio Hanson
Darius Butler
Captain Munnerlyn
Terrence McGee
Stanford Routt
Marcus Trufant
Leigh Bodden
Chris Owens
Shawntae Spencer
Kelvin Hayden
William Middleton
Pat Lee
Cedric Griffin
Greg Toler
D.J. Moore
William Gay (Signed a three-year, $4.5M deal with PIT)
Michael Adams
Drayton Florence
Ryan Mouton
Zackary Bowman
Michael Coe
Alan Ball
Will Allen
Drew Coleman
Alphonso Smith
Chris Carr
Chris Johnson

MagicHef
03-06-2013, 07:55 AM
Not every team runs on first and second down.. Ayers will kick inside on passing downs along with Wolfe.. So I'm not sure why 7 sacks for Ayers who will be on the field for an additional 400 snaps can't get 7 sacks and a rookie 5-6...

I see where the confusion is. You thought that I was saying 7 sacks is more than Ayers has had any one season. While that is true, what I meant is that 7 sacks is more than Ayers has accumulated over the course of his four year career. He's played in 57 games, started 24, and has been on the field for 2,193 snaps, accumulating 6.5 sacks. So no, I do not think he can get 7 sacks in a season because he kicks inside on passing downs.

Also, in our defense, I don't think 2 guys who combine for 12 sacks are as good as one guy who gets 12 by himself. Mainly because of the respect a passrusher like Doom gets, the way that affects the offense's blocking schemes, and what that means for Von.

Bacchus
03-06-2013, 08:05 AM
NFL website says Falcons and 49ers interested in Revis. They still have not list the Broncos. If we hear Doom rumors why haven't they?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000147304/article/atlanta-falcons-reportedly-interested-in-darrelle-revis

Hercules Rockefeller
03-06-2013, 08:09 AM
NFL website says Falcons and 49ers interested in Revis. They still have not list the Broncos. If we here Doom rumors why haven't they?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000147304/article/atlanta-falcons-reportedly-interested-in-darrelle-revis

Because there are no Doom rumors?

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 08:09 AM
I see where the confusion is. You thought that I was saying 7 sacks is more than Ayers has had any one season. While that is true, what I meant is that 7 sacks is more than Ayers has accumulated over the course of his four year career. He's played in 57 games, started 24, and has been on the field for 2,193 snaps, accumulating 6.5 sacks. So no, I do not think he can get 7 sacks in a season because he kicks inside on passing downs.

Also, in our defense, I don't think 2 guys who combine for 12 sacks are as good as one guy who gets 12 by himself. Mainly because of the respect a passrusher like Doom gets, the way that affects the offense's blocking schemes, and what that means for Von.

Yeah, it's amazing how these guys don't think of Doom as at all complimentary to Von's success. When you lead the league in sacks, it's not all just because of one guy.

Bmore Manning
03-06-2013, 08:13 AM
Yeah, it's amazing how these guys don't think of Doom as at all complimentary to Von's success. When you lead the league in sacks, it's not all just because of one guy.

Wolfe is the facilitator for Von not Doom.

Bacchus
03-06-2013, 08:15 AM
Because there are no Doom rumors?

Is that something that was just thrown out in this thread?

TonyR
03-06-2013, 08:16 AM
A New York paper (forget which one) said that San Fran and Atlanta were ready to deal.

SanFran has a boatload of picks so they may be hard to beat.

Bmore Manning
03-06-2013, 08:19 AM
I see where the confusion is. You thought that I was saying 7 sacks is more than Ayers has had any one season. While that is true, what I meant is that 7 sacks is more than Ayers has accumulated over the course of his four year career. He's played in 57 games, started 24, and has been on the field for 2,193 snaps, accumulating 6.5 sacks. So no, I do not think he can get 7 sacks in a season because he kicks inside on passing downs.

Also, in our defense, I don't think 2 guys who combine for 12 sacks are as good as one guy who gets 12 by himself. Mainly because of the respect a passrusher like Doom gets, the way that affects the offense's blocking schemes, and what that means for Von.

We both agree Revis would improve the defense.

We just disagree about how Doom can be replaced.

I think you can replace that production, you don't. I think you can draft someone to be the next Doom easier than you can draft and find the next Revis.

elsid13
03-06-2013, 08:31 AM
Pass rather either draft a CB or pick up FA one before giving away Doom and pick. BTW does anyone really believe that Revis is worth a first. I could see second and condition pick in the following draft but not a starter and 1st.

socalorado
03-06-2013, 08:33 AM
We both agree Revis would improve the defense.

We just disagree about how Doom can be replaced.

I think you can replace that production, you don't. I think you can draft someone to be the next Doom easier than you can draft and find the next Revis.

Agreed. No FA CB is even in the same building as a healthy Revis.
And yes, a healthy Revis is every bit as good as Champ ever was
in his prime. Dude is a pure monster in any defense in any down
and consistently shuts down monster WR's. But he also is excellent
in the run game and an awesome tackler. Well worth every penny.
For me, its all about the health. And if fully healthy, not giving up
anything more than 2 2nds without Doom, and no more than a
3rd with Doom.

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 09:02 AM
Wolfe is the facilitator for Von not Doom.

I think other teams' ability to spread the field and then eat us alive over the middle is the biggest thing hurting Doom. If he could count on pass rushing in normal passing situations, his numbers would improve dramatically. The fact that teams can run or dump short on passing downs forever makes his work more difficult than it should be.

Not that that's on Wolfe. But we've at least got to do something at MLB and/or DT.

Beantown Bronco
03-06-2013, 09:04 AM
I think other teams' ability to spread the field and then eat us alive over the middle is the biggest thing hurting Doom. If he could count on pass rushing in normal passing situations, his numbers would improve dramatically. The fact that teams can run or dump short on passing downs forever makes his work more difficult than it should be.



So he should've shined against Baltimore and their constant deep passing attack........right?

DBroncos4life
03-06-2013, 09:05 AM
A source tells ESPN's Chris Mortensen that the 49ers' interest in Darrelle Revis is ".001 on a scale of 1-10."
We're hesitant to take this report at face value. Now that the Jets have essentially put their cards on the table, the leverage game is on. Even if the Niners do want to deal for Revis, coming out and saying so would be silly. They'll be trying to execute the trade while giving up as few assets as possible, as will a fistful of other teams. The Falcons, Bucs, Colts and Eagles all make some sense as eventual trade partners for the Jets.

Requiem
03-06-2013, 09:06 AM
Yeah, teams spreading the field (signals passing situation) is clearly what is holding Doom back. Lol. Wtf kind of football analysis is that? Crackerjack box style.

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 09:10 AM
Agreed. No FA CB is even in the same building as a healthy Revis.

Come on man. A couple years ago people were saying that kind of stuff about Nnamdi. And only one of the two blew out his knee last year.

Revis is great. But one, the injury is a question mark. And two, he's not the complete player Champ Bailey was in his prime. Not even close.

Requiem
03-06-2013, 09:10 AM
So he should've shined against Baltimore and their constant deep passing attack........right?

A much nicer way of pointing out a dumb statement.

What hurts Dumervil is that he is a 5'11 DE who offers nothing against the run and is a liability there. He is and forever will be a one trick pony, but it is a pretty good trick. He is like the magician who can pull a rabbit out of his hat, but the rabbit actually is dead and doesn't have a skeleton. :thumbsup:

socalorado
03-06-2013, 09:19 AM
Come on man. A couple years ago people were saying that kind of stuff about Nnamdi. And only one of the two blew out his knee last year.

Revis is great. But one, the injury is a question mark. And two, he's not the complete player Champ Bailey was in his prime. Not even close.

Wrong. Revis is every bit as good as Champ ever was when healthy.
The whole fairytale that "Champ Bailey is some demi-god sent from Zues"
is just getting laughable.
And yes, Revis is as complete a player as Champ has ever been.

Rabb
03-06-2013, 09:26 AM
I think other teams' ability to spread the field and then eat us alive over the middle is the biggest thing hurting Doom. If he could count on pass rushing in normal passing situations, his numbers would improve dramatically. The fact that teams can run or dump short on passing downs forever makes his work more difficult than it should be.

Aren't you making an argument against yourself here?

Requiem
03-06-2013, 09:27 AM
Aren't you making an argument against yourself here?

He doesn't even know what he is talking about. Playing the role of contrarian is his internet persona. Sad.

Heyneck
03-06-2013, 09:28 AM
have you people lost your mind?????

Revis is coming off of a season ending injury. He's unproven. We have no idea how good he can be, this isn't like Peyton Manning. Revis can't smart his way to covering a fast receiver if his leg won't cooperate.

Doom is a very good player for us. He's a game changer at times. The reason I know that Dumervil is not the person included is because the Broncos coaches and front office KNOW how important Dumervil is to this team. No way we trade him. And honestly Ayers looked very strong at times last year it would be a shame to see him go.

Revis for picks? yeah, we're in Win-now. Revis for integral players on our defense? No ****ing way.

Yeah... people seem to forget that Doom practically shifted the tide or momentum of our season in the SD game that we where down by 20 points. It was his forced fumble, (the one carter took for a TD) that shifted that hole game and our season in another direction.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-06-2013, 09:30 AM
Is that something that was just thrown out in this thread?

Did it come from Incarcerated Bob? Then yes, it's a baseless rumor from someone on Twitter who has no sources, despite what a small group of defenders want to believe about him.

Heyneck
03-06-2013, 09:32 AM
Wolfe is the facilitator for Von not Doom.

What? Lol Dude... seriously. Cat scan ASAP.

Bmore Manning
03-06-2013, 09:43 AM
What? Lol Dude... seriously. Cat scan ASAP.

Thats my point about you. You insulted me for not being on the whole ride of Bronco History, but that doesn't change the fact you have very minimal football IQ and your history lesson won't change that.

The biggest factor to the scheme's success and unleashing our best weapon (Von Miller) was Derek Wolfe, not Doom.

Heyneck
03-06-2013, 09:55 AM
Wrong. Revis is every bit as good as Champ ever was when healthy.
The whole fairytale that "Champ Bailey is some demi-god sent from Zues"
is just getting laughable.
And yes, Revis is as complete a player as Champ has ever been.

Uhhh do you ever remember Champ shying away from contact the way Revis did with Tebow? Revis is great. But he ain't the CB that Champ was in his prime.

Heyneck
03-06-2013, 09:56 AM
Thats my point about you. You insulted me for not being on the whole ride of Bronco History, but that doesn't change the fact you have very minimal football IQ and your history lesson won't change that.

The biggest factor to the scheme's success and unleashing our best weapon (Von Miller) was Derek Wolfe, not Doom.

Again... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

*And when have I insulted you? What a cry baby.

MagicHef
03-06-2013, 10:01 AM
A much nicer way of pointing out a dumb statement.

What hurts Dumervil is that he is a 5'11 DE who offers nothing against the run and is a liability there. He is and forever will be a one trick pony, but it is a pretty good trick. He is like the magician who can pull a rabbit out of his hat, but the rabbit actually is dead and doesn't have a skeleton. :thumbsup:

Doom had 28 stops (tackles resulting in a failure for the offense) this season. That's the same as Wolfe, and it's more than any DT on the team.

In fact, he's tied (with Wolfe and Will Smith) at 17th among 4-3 DEs. Considering 24 teams play a 4-3 base and each team has 2 starters at DE, that makes him above average.

He isn't the liability against the run that he is made out to be.

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 10:02 AM
Yeah, teams spreading the field (signals passing situation) is clearly what is holding Doom back. Lol. Wtf kind of football analysis is that? Crackerjack box style.

No, being able to convert with runs and dump offs in what are normally downfield passing scenarios is "hurting" him. If you consider 14th in the league in sacks while your teammate is #3 as "hurting"

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 10:06 AM
Wrong. Revis is every bit as good as Champ ever was when healthy.
The whole fairytale that "Champ Bailey is some demi-god sent from Zues"
is just getting laughable.
And yes, Revis is as complete a player as Champ has ever been.

Lulz

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xlgMvml3v8o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He's a diva. His contract whining and holdouts only underline it.

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 10:19 AM
A much nicer way of pointing out a dumb statement.

What hurts Dumervil is that he is a 5'11 DE who offers nothing against the run and is a liability there. He is and forever will be a one trick pony, but it is a pretty good trick. He is like the magician who can pull a rabbit out of his hat, but the rabbit actually is dead and doesn't have a skeleton. :thumbsup:

Guess we can go ahead and wipe guys like Old Man Freeney off your replacement board then. :)

There aren't too many DEs that both clog the run and are top-10 among DEs in sacks.

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 10:21 AM
So he should've shined against Baltimore and their constant deep passing attack........right?

Back to cuttin' people loose on that one game? I think he shared one sack with Von IIRC. Guess they both better renegotiate to league minimum or get cut.

spiralism
03-06-2013, 10:23 AM
If we signed Revis at the cost of losing Doom and then filled the latter gap by picking up Freeney or John Abraham, Elway would deserve executive of the year for that alone.

Best thing is Doom is already commanding a massive 14 mill of our cap next year. Revis wants 16 million a year so it would ultimately cost us 2 million in cap space...where do i sign up?

BroncoBeavis
03-06-2013, 10:39 AM
Best thing is Doom is already commanding a massive 14 mill of our cap next year. Revis wants 16 million a year so it would ultimately cost us 2 million in cap space...where do i sign up?

Could be worse. Colts payed Freeney $14 mil. last year for 5 sacks and 12 tackles.

socalorado
03-06-2013, 10:52 AM
Lulz

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xlgMvml3v8o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He's a diva. His contract whining and holdouts only underline it.

Do you want me to post Diva whifs of Champ?
I wont, but theres plenty out there. Mistakes are made by every great player.
Seriously sit the next couple inning out and maybe stop posting so much.

NFLBRONCO
03-06-2013, 10:59 AM
I-Bob rumor of the day lol

Denver offered a 1st and a 3rd this year for Revis

Lestat
03-06-2013, 11:04 AM
Wrong. Revis is every bit as good as Champ ever was when healthy.
The whole fairytale that "Champ Bailey is some demi-god sent from Zues"
is just getting laughable.
And yes, Revis is as complete a player as Champ has ever been.

Revis is good, but he's not on Champ's level in his prime.
Revis is definitely the best CB in the NFL but no CB was as good as Champ in his prime during the most recent era of the game.
Champ is Jordan, Revis is Kobe. both are good, one is better and it's the former not the latter.

MagicHef
03-06-2013, 11:05 AM
Do you want me to post Diva whifs of Champ?
I wont, but theres plenty out there. Mistakes are made by every great player.
Seriously sit the next couple inning out and maybe stop posting so much.

Sure, post them. I'd like to compare.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-06-2013, 11:10 AM
I-Bob rumor of the day lol

Denver offered a 1st and a 3rd this year for Revis

LOL

And Schefter said they're not going to get much better than a 2nd or 3rd. Wonder who is more in the loop, an actual NFL writer or some guy in his mom's basement that makes **** up on Twitter?

DBroncos4life
03-06-2013, 11:14 AM
LOL

And Schefter said they're not going to get much better than a 2nd or 3rd. Wonder who is more in the loop, an actual NFL writer or some guy in his mom's basement that makes **** up on Twitter?

Ibob is the Santa Claus of the twitter world.