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Mediator12
02-18-2013, 07:15 AM
Pat Kirwan has an excellent article on this here:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/pat-kirwan/21709814/2013-nfl-draft-examining-the-middle-linebacker-class

Here is a preview:

The NFL Combine begins Wednesday, and as usual the conversation centers around the the quarterback. The signal caller on the other side of the ball, better known as the middle linebacker, is facing a mini crisis at the position.

People can continue to predict the demise of the middle linebacker in the modern game all they want, but the Super Bowl had middle linebackers named Ray Lewis and Patrick Willis. That should tell you something about the type of players that lead teams. Whether it is the Mike backer in a 4-3 defense or the inside linebacker in the 3-4 defense, teams need dynamic players to man the middle. The more I look at the state of affairs at the 'defensive quarterback' position the more I realize there are problems on the horizon for NFL teams.

Ray Lewis retired right after the Super Bowl. Brian Urlacher is close to the end of his career and has said he would take a pay cut to stay with the Bears, but the club hasn't jump at his offer. The Redskins aren't sure London Fletcher can return for his 16th season as a middle linebacker and how long can Takeo Spikes go on for the Chargers?

Michael Boley, Bart Scott, and Nick Barnett have already been released before the start of free agency, creating voids at those teams. Jonathan Vilma and Demeco Ryans once played for teams that switched to 3-4 defenses. Those teams -- the Jets and Texans respectively, didn't think they were great fits in the new scheme, so they let them go. Once again they find themselves on teams switching to 3-4 defenses and it remains to be seen if they can play in the defense.

I talked with Bengals middle linebacker Rey Maualuga this week, who's future in Cincinnati is up in the air. He's a free agent and his anxiety about the situation was obvious. The Raiders have to get rid of Rolando McClain sooner or later with his off-the-field issues and his liability in coverage. The Broncos, Chiefs, Vikings, Giants and Steelers all have to find middle linebackers in this draft or settle for someone in free agency. Add it all up and more than half the NFL may need a middle linebacker. The point is, more teams need middle linebackers than the draft pool can provide.


I think he makes excellent points here. Read the whole thing on their site to finish it.

Bacchus
02-18-2013, 07:38 AM
Pat Kirwan has an excellent article on this here:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/pat-kirwan/21709814/2013-nfl-draft-examining-the-middle-linebacker-class

Here is a preview:

The NFL Combine begins Wednesday, and as usual the conversation centers around the the quarterback. The signal caller on the other side of the ball, better known as the middle linebacker, is facing a mini crisis at the position.

People can continue to predict the demise of the middle linebacker in the modern game all they want, but the Super Bowl had middle linebackers named Ray Lewis and Patrick Willis. That should tell you something about the type of players that lead teams. Whether it is the Mike backer in a 4-3 defense or the inside linebacker in the 3-4 defense, teams need dynamic players to man the middle. The more I look at the state of affairs at the 'defensive quarterback' position the more I realize there are problems on the horizon for NFL teams.

Ray Lewis retired right after the Super Bowl. Brian Urlacher is close to the end of his career and has said he would take a pay cut to stay with the Bears, but the club hasn't jump at his offer. The Redskins aren't sure London Fletcher can return for his 16th season as a middle linebacker and how long can Takeo Spikes go on for the Chargers?

Michael Boley, Bart Scott, and Nick Barnett have already been released before the start of free agency, creating voids at those teams. Jonathan Vilma and Demeco Ryans once played for teams that switched to 3-4 defenses. Those teams -- the Jets and Texans respectively, didn't think they were great fits in the new scheme, so they let them go. Once again they find themselves on teams switching to 3-4 defenses and it remains to be seen if they can play in the defense.

I talked with Bengals middle linebacker Rey Maualuga this week, who's future in Cincinnati is up in the air. He's a free agent and his anxiety about the situation was obvious. The Raiders have to get rid of Rolando McClain sooner or later with his off-the-field issues and his liability in coverage. The Broncos, Chiefs, Vikings, Giants and Steelers all have to find middle linebackers in this draft or settle for someone in free agency. Add it all up and more than half the NFL may need a middle linebacker. The point is, more teams need middle linebackers than the draft pool can provide.


I think he makes excellent points here. Read the whole thing on their site to finish it.

Well, if that is the case then lets resign Williams at a reduced rate and keep Irvin and Johnson as back-ups and potential starters if Williams falters. DT is a bigger need. The MLB for Denver plays in what 40% of the snaps?

Mediator12
02-18-2013, 08:04 AM
Well, if that is the case then lets resign Williams at a reduced rate and keep Irvin and Johnson as back-ups and potential starters if Williams falters. DT is a bigger need. The MLB for Denver plays in what 40% of the snaps?

Snap % deals with the ability to be a 3 down LB as a Mike. The great defenses have those guys as leaders. The average defenses have 2 down thumpers and replace the Mike on Passing snaps. The thing about DEN's scheme is you can get away with a lighter Mike than most 4-3 defenses due to the way they protect the Mike with the DT's.

So, that brings smaller guys like Arthur Brown, Khaseem Greene, and Steve Beauharnais into the mix. Guys who can cover and can play Mike getting covered by the DT's and keeping OG's from getting to them at the next level. Also, those guys have natural leadership characteristics, something every good Mike needs at the next level.

Like him or hate him, Ray Lewis not only lead that defense, he made them transcend their capabilities individually. They always Played Better than their individual talents and covered each others backs. That is the type of Guy DEN needs.

That was Al Wilson. He had those LB's and the whole defense playing together. For goodness sake, they started 6 Street FA's in the second half of the season in 2004 and still were 4th in the league in total Defense. They finished 4th against he run and 6th against the pass when Big Al was manning the middle and being the Mike in the Tampa 2 drops or covering WR in the Slot.

We need the Elite Coverage MLB and team Leader. Someone who is fearless in both run and passing games. Someone who can change playcalls against the top Offenses No huddle and get the defense out of exploitable plays pre-snap. We need the next Al Wilson on the roster to take the next step defensively IMHO.

Sure, we can upgrade other positions and get decent return on Investement. But there is no other position on defense that can make this team better than getting a Stud 3 down MIKE with an attitude, great playmaking mentality, knowledge of the Playbook to QB the defense, and cover skills.

The MIKE needs to be the QB for the defense, and right now, we do NOT have one of those guys.

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 08:04 AM
Well, if that is the case then lets resign Williams at a reduced rate and keep Irvin and Johnson as back-ups and potential starters if Williams falters. DT is a bigger need. The MLB for Denver plays in what 40% of the snaps?

Well, if you have a true 3-down MLB, doesn't that increase the snaps you'd have him on the field? Seems to me that's the way to go, but finding one and being willing to draft high for him is the problem I guess.

BroncoBuff
02-18-2013, 08:12 AM
Do we have enough cash to sign Wes Welker, Dwight Freeney, Ed Reed, Aqib Talib, Kevin Vickerson and all our draft picks?

BowlenBall
02-18-2013, 08:12 AM
Snap % deals with the ability to be a 3 down LB as a Mike. The great defenses have those guys as leaders. The average defenses have 2 down thumpers and replace the Mike on Passing snaps. The thing about DEN's scheme is you can get away with a lighter Mike than most 4-3 defenses due to the way they protect the Mike with the DT's.

So, that brings smaller guys like Arthur Brown, Khaseem Greene, and Steve Beauharnais into the mix. Guys who can cover and can play Mike getting covered by the DT's and keeping OG's from getting to them at the next level. Also, those guys have natural leadership characteristics, something every good Mike needs at the next level.

Like him or hate him, Ray Lewis not only lead that defense, he made them transcend their capabilities individually. They always Played Better than their individual talents and covered each others backs. That is the type of Guy DEN needs.

That was Al Wilson. He had those LB's and the whole defense playing together. For goodness sake, they started 6 Street FA's in the second half of the season in 2004 and still were 4th in the league in total Defense. They finished 4th against he run and 6th against the pass when Big Al was manning the middle and being the Mike in the Tampa 2 drops or covering WR in the Slot.

We need the Elite Coverage MLB and team Leader. Someone who is fearless in both run and passing games. Someone who can change playcalls against the top Offenses No huddle and get the defense out of exploitable plays pre-snap. We need the next Al Wilson on the roster to take the next step defensively IMHO.

Sure, we can upgrade other positions and get decent return on Investement. But there is no other position on defense that can make this team better than getting a Stud 3 down MIKE with an attitude, great playmaking mentality, knowledge of the Playbook to QB the defense, and cover skills.

The MIKE needs to be the QB for the defense, and right now, we do NOT have one of those guys.

Complete and utter co-sign. This is the last puzzle piece that could bring home the Lombardi Trophy for us.

I know it's a passť pick, but Manti Te'o really does seem to fit the bill for the Broncos....

BowlenBall
02-18-2013, 08:13 AM
Snap % deals with the ability to be a 3 down LB as a Mike. The great defenses have those guys as leaders. The average defenses have 2 down thumpers and replace the Mike on Passing snaps. The thing about DEN's scheme is you can get away with a lighter Mike than most 4-3 defenses due to the way they protect the Mike with the DT's.

So, that brings smaller guys like Arthur Brown, Khaseem Greene, and Steve Beauharnais into the mix. Guys who can cover and can play Mike getting covered by the DT's and keeping OG's from getting to them at the next level. Also, those guys have natural leadership characteristics, something every good Mike needs at the next level.

Like him or hate him, Ray Lewis not only lead that defense, he made them transcend their capabilities individually. They always Played Better than their individual talents and covered each others backs. That is the type of Guy DEN needs.

That was Al Wilson. He had those LB's and the whole defense playing together. For goodness sake, they started 6 Street FA's in the second half of the season in 2004 and still were 4th in the league in total Defense. They finished 4th against he run and 6th against the pass when Big Al was manning the middle and being the Mike in the Tampa 2 drops or covering WR in the Slot.

We need the Elite Coverage MLB and team Leader. Someone who is fearless in both run and passing games. Someone who can change playcalls against the top Offenses No huddle and get the defense out of exploitable plays pre-snap. We need the next Al Wilson on the roster to take the next step defensively IMHO.

Sure, we can upgrade other positions and get decent return on Investement. But there is no other position on defense that can make this team better than getting a Stud 3 down MIKE with an attitude, great playmaking mentality, knowledge of the Playbook to QB the defense, and cover skills.

The MIKE needs to be the QB for the defense, and right now, we do NOT have one of those guys.

Complete and utter co-sign. This is the last puzzle piece that could bring home the Lombardi Trophy for us.

I know it's a passť pick, but Manti Te'o really does seem to fit the bill for the Broncos....

Kaylore
02-18-2013, 08:55 AM
This is why you don't draft for need. Just because your team needs something doesn't mean it's there. And teams that make the mistake of taking what they need hoping it's going to turn into more than it ever was are teams that are hovering around 4-8 wins every year.

It might just be me, but it seems like there haven't been very many great middle linebackers lately. It seems almost harder to find than a pass rusher.

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 09:29 AM
.........................

We need the Elite Coverage MLB and team Leader. Someone who is fearless in both run and passing games. Someone who can change playcalls against the top Offenses No huddle and get the defense out of exploitable plays pre-snap. We need the next Al Wilson on the roster to take the next step defensively IMHO.

Sure, we can upgrade other positions and get decent return on Investement. But there is no other position on defense that can make this team better than getting a Stud 3 down MIKE with an attitude, great playmaking mentality, knowledge of the Playbook to QB the defense, and cover skills.

The MIKE needs to be the QB for the defense, and right now, we do NOT have one of those guys.

I hope they can find one, but it seems like they don't want to put the money or the high draft pick into a 3-down MLB. And they're hard to find otherwise, correct?

Mogulseeker
02-18-2013, 09:35 AM
I really hope we pick up T'eo.

I seriously fell in love with the prospect of drafting T'eo while watching some inside footage of Notre Dame's season on ESPN. I don't care about the whole imaginary girlfriend thing... T'eo was well-spoken and driven. I'm aware of his production dropoff, and the fact that he had a terrible BCS game, that in combination with the scandal will be enough to drop him to 28.

Then again, Kyle Orton was once considered a top 15 pick until his production dropped off his senior year.

socalorado
02-18-2013, 09:49 AM
Snap % deals with the ability to be a 3 down LB as a Mike. The great defenses have those guys as leaders. The average defenses have 2 down thumpers and replace the Mike on Passing snaps. The thing about DEN's scheme is you can get away with a lighter Mike than most 4-3 defenses due to the way they protect the Mike with the DT's.

So, that brings smaller guys like Arthur Brown, Khaseem Greene, and Steve Beauharnais into the mix. Guys who can cover and can play Mike getting covered by the DT's and keeping OG's from getting to them at the next level. Also, those guys have natural leadership characteristics, something every good Mike needs at the next level.

Like him or hate him, Ray Lewis not only lead that defense, he made them transcend their capabilities individually. They always Played Better than their individual talents and covered each others backs. That is the type of Guy DEN needs.

That was Al Wilson. He had those LB's and the whole defense playing together. For goodness sake, they started 6 Street FA's in the second half of the season in 2004 and still were 4th in the league in total Defense. They finished 4th against he run and 6th against the pass when Big Al was manning the middle and being the Mike in the Tampa 2 drops or covering WR in the Slot.

We need the Elite Coverage MLB and team Leader. Someone who is fearless in both run and passing games. Someone who can change playcalls against the top Offenses No huddle and get the defense out of exploitable plays pre-snap. We need the next Al Wilson on the roster to take the next step defensively IMHO.

Sure, we can upgrade other positions and get decent return on Investement. But there is no other position on defense that can make this team better than getting a Stud 3 down MIKE with an attitude, great playmaking mentality, knowledge of the Playbook to QB the defense, and cover skills.

The MIKE needs to be the QB for the defense, and right now, we do NOT have one of those guys.

Good post. So, Who then, does DEN draft?

BroncoMan4ever
02-18-2013, 10:01 AM
Well, if that is the case then lets resign Williams at a reduced rate and keep Irvin and Johnson as back-ups and potential starters if Williams falters. DT is a bigger need. The MLB for Denver plays in what 40% of the snaps?

Because DUI sucked as a MLB. If anything we'd be better off getting rid of his salary and bringing back Brooking for a year as insurance should Irving and Johnson fail. Or take a look at a guy like Maualuga or Vilma who will be free.

DUI's tenure as a Bronco really needs to be ovee

gyldenlove
02-18-2013, 10:06 AM
This is why you don't draft for need. Just because your team needs something doesn't mean it's there. And teams that make the mistake of taking what they need hoping it's going to turn into more than it ever was are teams that are hovering around 4-8 wins every year.

It might just be me, but it seems like there haven't been very many great middle linebackers lately. It seems almost harder to find than a pass rusher.

Actually middle linebackers are easy to find, you have to be willing to sacrifice. Every year between 4 and 6 pass rushers are drafted in round 1, on average about 2 of them pan out very well, and 2 of them fail completely.

The last 10 mlb/ilbs that have been drafted in round 1:

Luke Kuechly (DROY)
Donta Hightower (starter, but not great)
Rolando Mclain (bust)
Jerod Meyo (stud)
Patrick Willis (stud)
Lawrence Timmons (stud)
Jon Beason (stud but injury problems)
Chad Greenway (stud)
Bobby Carpenter (bust)
Jonathan Vilma (good)

2 outright busts, Hightower can't be projected yet and plays mostly SLB. Beason have run in to injury problems and Vilma is a douchenozzle but both are good players.

In the top of the 2nd round you have guys like Demeco Ryans, Paul Puslysny, Curtis Lofton, Dqwell Jackson, James Laurinaitis. If you want a MLB you find one worthy of a 1st round pick and you are pretty sure he will turn out to be a decent player, but there aren't many players like that. Taking a MLB in a lower round is a much worse proposition since LBs are so relatively easy to project.

Bacchus
02-18-2013, 10:45 AM
Sure, we can upgrade other positions and get decent return on Investement. But there is no other position on defense that can make this team better than getting a Stud 3 down MIKE with an attitude, great playmaking mentality, knowledge of the Playbook to QB the defense, and cover skills.

The MIKE needs to be the QB for the defense, and right now, we do NOT have one of those guys.

That all makes sense but If you put Shariff Floyd next to Vikerson and the best MLB between Williams, Irvin and Johnson I think Denver might be better served. I think JDR will agree. Get the big stud DTs clogging the middle and they will make your MLB much better.

Bacchus
02-18-2013, 10:47 AM
Actually middle linebackers are easy to find, you have to be willing to sacrifice. Every year between 4 and 6 pass rushers are drafted in round 1, on average about 2 of them pan out very well, and 2 of them fail completely.

The last 10 mlb/ilbs that have been drafted in round 1:

Luke Kuechly (DROY)
Donta Hightower (starter, but not great)
Rolando Mclain (bust)
Jerod Meyo (stud)
Patrick Willis (stud)
Lawrence Timmons (stud)
Jon Beason (stud but injury problems)
Chad Greenway (stud)
Bobby Carpenter (bust)
Jonathan Vilma (good)

2 outright busts, Hightower can't be projected yet and plays mostly SLB. Beason have run in to injury problems and Vilma is a douchenozzle but both are good players.

In the top of the 2nd round you have guys like Demeco Ryans, Paul Puslysny, Curtis Lofton, Dqwell Jackson, James Laurinaitis. If you want a MLB you find one worthy of a 1st round pick and you are pretty sure he will turn out to be a decent player, but there aren't many players like that. Taking a MLB in a lower round is a much worse proposition since LBs are so relatively easy to project.


LBer has always had the best success rate for 1st round picks. They only thing I could say about that is the position doesn't change much from college and they are easier to scout.

Kaylore
02-18-2013, 10:54 AM
Actually middle linebackers are easy to find, you have to be willing to sacrifice. Every year between 4 and 6 pass rushers are drafted in round 1, on average about 2 of them pan out very well, and 2 of them fail completely.

The last 10 mlb/ilbs that have been drafted in round 1:

Luke Kuechly (DROY)
Donta Hightower (starter, but not great)
Rolando Mclain (bust)
Jerod Meyo (stud)
Patrick Willis (stud)
Lawrence Timmons (stud)
Jon Beason (stud but injury problems)
Chad Greenway (stud)
Bobby Carpenter (bust)
Jonathan Vilma (good)

2 outright busts, Hightower can't be projected yet and plays mostly SLB. Beason have run in to injury problems and Vilma is a douchenozzle but both are good players.

In the top of the 2nd round you have guys like Demeco Ryans, Paul Puslysny, Curtis Lofton, Dqwell Jackson, James Laurinaitis. If you want a MLB you find one worthy of a 1st round pick and you are pretty sure he will turn out to be a decent player, but there aren't many players like that. Taking a MLB in a lower round is a much worse proposition since LBs are so relatively easy to project.

I guess I'm looking at it from an entire NFL perspective. Sure, there will be HOF caliber players at almost every position in every draft. However the ratios don't seem that great. You basically just showed that there are one to two really good mike linebackers every draft. That's not very good odds...

Kaylore
02-18-2013, 10:56 AM
LBer has always had the best success rate for 1st round picks. They only thing I could say about that is the position doesn't change much from college and they are easier to scout.

I don't know where you got that, but it isn't true. Statistically offensive linemen, and especially tackles, have the lowest bust rate of any first round selection.

Requiem
02-18-2013, 11:01 AM
I don't know where you got that, but it isn't true. Statistically offensive linemen, and especially tackles, have the lowest bust rate of any first round selection.

I bet I could compile a list of busts at the OL position (OT in particular) over the past ten years that is much higher than linebackers.

gunns
02-18-2013, 11:02 AM
Pat Kirwan has an excellent article on this here:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/pat-kirwan/21709814/2013-nfl-draft-examining-the-middle-linebacker-class

Here is a preview:

The NFL Combine begins Wednesday, and as usual the conversation centers around the the quarterback. The signal caller on the other side of the ball, better known as the middle linebacker, is facing a mini crisis at the position.

People can continue to predict the demise of the middle linebacker in the modern game all they want, but the Super Bowl had middle linebackers named Ray Lewis and Patrick Willis. That should tell you something about the type of players that lead teams. Whether it is the Mike backer in a 4-3 defense or the inside linebacker in the 3-4 defense, teams need dynamic players to man the middle. The more I look at the state of affairs at the 'defensive quarterback' position the more I realize there are problems on the horizon for NFL teams.

Ray Lewis retired right after the Super Bowl. Brian Urlacher is close to the end of his career and has said he would take a pay cut to stay with the Bears, but the club hasn't jump at his offer. The Redskins aren't sure London Fletcher can return for his 16th season as a middle linebacker and how long can Takeo Spikes go on for the Chargers?

Michael Boley, Bart Scott, and Nick Barnett have already been released before the start of free agency, creating voids at those teams. Jonathan Vilma and Demeco Ryans once played for teams that switched to 3-4 defenses. Those teams -- the Jets and Texans respectively, didn't think they were great fits in the new scheme, so they let them go. Once again they find themselves on teams switching to 3-4 defenses and it remains to be seen if they can play in the defense.

I talked with Bengals middle linebacker Rey Maualuga this week, who's future in Cincinnati is up in the air. He's a free agent and his anxiety about the situation was obvious. The Raiders have to get rid of Rolando McClain sooner or later with his off-the-field issues and his liability in coverage. The Broncos, Chiefs, Vikings, Giants and Steelers all have to find middle linebackers in this draft or settle for someone in free agency. Add it all up and more than half the NFL may need a middle linebacker. The point is, more teams need middle linebackers than the draft pool can provide.


I think he makes excellent points here. Read the whole thing on their site to finish it.

It's been said often that MLB is the QB, anchor, captain of the defense. I'd love to get Ryans if he becomes available. I'd also love to find the "Von Miller" of MLB in the draft. I doubt that happens. We need to win now.

gyldenlove
02-18-2013, 11:13 AM
I guess I'm looking at it from an entire NFL perspective. Sure, there will be HOF caliber players at almost every position in every draft. However the ratios don't seem that great. You basically just showed that there are one to two really good mike linebackers every draft. That's not very good odds...

True, but it also means that drafting MLB outside the top 35 is a very bad bet, not only are you probably not getting the player who will turn out to be a pro-bowler you are drafting a player who has very low chance of success at all.

Compare that to pass rushers, where every year you can find pro-bowl level pass rushers in lower rounds, like Dumervil, Jared Allen, Charles Johnson, Michael Johnson, Cliff Avril, Greg Hardy, Justin Houston.

Actually MLB has excellent odds, it is a position that is very easy to project and the vast majority of people projected in the 1st round have success. If you can't get one of the players who are projected high, you shouldn't draft the position at all, but if you can get one of those players you are pretty good. This year the players who are projected well are Ogletree, Minter and Teo.

Kaylore
02-18-2013, 11:19 AM
I bet I could compile a list of busts at the OL position (OT in particular) over the past ten years that is much higher than linebackers.

I bet your number of hits would be higher too.

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 11:40 AM
That all makes sense but If you put Shariff Floyd next to Vikerson and the best MLB between Williams, Irvin and Johnson I think Denver might be better served. I think JDR will agree. Get the big stud DTs clogging the middle and they will make your MLB much better.

I believe Med was emphasizing a 3-down MLB, a guy that can drop into coverage as well as play the run, and is savvy enough to make calls at the LOS.

I bet JDR would love to have a 3-down MLB so he doesn't have to adjust so much to cover for the 2-down MLB. Trouble is as people have pointed out the 3-down MLB just doesn't come around too often. To get one you have to spend a high draft pick if there is even one available in the draft. They don't come open in FA, that's for sure.

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 11:57 AM
True, but it also means that drafting MLB outside the top 35 is a very bad bet, not only are you probably not getting the player who will turn out to be a pro-bowler you are drafting a player who has very low chance of success at all.

Compare that to pass rushers, where every year you can find pro-bowl level pass rushers in lower rounds, like Dumervil, Jared Allen, Charles Johnson, Michael Johnson, Cliff Avril, Greg Hardy, Justin Houston.

Actually MLB has excellent odds, it is a position that is very easy to project and the vast majority of people projected in the 1st round have success. If you can't get one of the players who are projected high, you shouldn't draft the position at all, but if you can get one of those players you are pretty good. This year the players who are projected well are Ogletree, Minter and Teo.

I agree the stud MLB's are only available in round 1, and they don't come around often. Minter seems to be the stud MLB in this draft, I wonder if Elway will try to get him even if he has to move up.

enjolras
02-18-2013, 12:02 PM
The thing about DEN's scheme is you can get away with a lighter Mike than most 4-3 defenses due to the way they protect the Mike with the DT's.

That's why getting a real MIKE is so important tho. I don't think this is the scheme they want to be playing, I think it's one they are forced into because the MLB position is so incredibly bad.

They'd love to create more pressure up the middle by stunting those tackles and mixing things up a bit more. Until they solve the problem in the middle, they can't.

Mediator12
02-18-2013, 12:07 PM
I believe Med was emphasizing a 3-down MLB, a guy that can drop into coverage as well as play the run, and is savvy enough to make calls at the LOS.

I bet JDR would love to have a 3-down MLB so he doesn't have to adjust so much to cover for the 2-down MLB. Trouble is as people have pointed out the 3-down MLB just doesn't come around too often. To get one you have to spend a high draft pick if there is even one available in the draft. They don't come open in FA, that's for sure.

It's this^^^^

DEN does not need Penetrating One gap DT's in this scheme, it needs big bodied 2 gappers with a little wiggle. Monsters who can clog the middle agaisnt the run, and bull rush the interior pocket and get teh QB off the mark inot the outside pass rush. When you protect the MIKE with big DT's he can flow to the run plays with little trouble, ie OG's getting in the way.

As I said earlier, the MLB can be smaller in stature with greater lateral quickness like Arthur Brown, Khaseem Greene, and Beauharnias. They can flow to the ball in the run game, and not get smashed by pulling OG's in the power run game. They also get inot the hole quickly and stop it from being a gaping hole.

Then, they can also cover zone underneath and Man. This is what you need in today's NFL. Very Rarely do you get the 6'4 255 guy who can run like Urlacher when he was coming out in the draft.

cutthemdown
02-18-2013, 12:23 PM
That all makes sense but If you put Shariff Floyd next to Vikerson and the best MLB between Williams, Irvin and Johnson I think Denver might be better served. I think JDR will agree. Get the big stud DTs clogging the middle and they will make your MLB much better.

Yeah but what the MLB will really do for us is give us someone who can get deeper on their drops and be more athletic when it comes to making plays in tbe passing game.

Stuffing the run not really Denvers big problem IMO. Flacco torched us in the air not on the ground.

cutthemdown
02-18-2013, 12:24 PM
It's this^^^^

DEN does not need Penetrating One gap DT's in this scheme, it needs big bodied 2 gappers with a little wiggle. Monsters who can clog the middle agaisnt the run, and bull rush the interior pocket and get teh QB off the mark inot the outside pass rush. When you protect the MIKE with big DT's he can flow to the run plays with little trouble, ie OG's getting in the way.

As I said earlier, the MLB can be smaller in stature with greater lateral quickness like Arthur Brown, Khaseem Greene, and Beauharnias. They can flow to the ball in the run game, and not get smashed by pulling OG's in the power run game. They also get inot the hole quickly and stop it from being a gaping hole.

Then, they can also cover zone underneath and Man. This is what you need in today's NFL. Very Rarely do you get the 6'4 255 guy who can run like Urlacher when he was coming out in the draft.

Since when do Broncos really go for the fatties? We have before in FA but in general Broncos always look for versatile dlineman with big motors. The high altitude just not great for big fatties.

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 12:30 PM
It's this^^^^

DEN does not need Penetrating One gap DT's in this scheme, it needs big bodied 2 gappers with a little wiggle. Monsters who can clog the middle agaisnt the run, and bull rush the interior pocket and get teh QB off the mark inot the outside pass rush. When you protect the MIKE with big DT's he can flow to the run plays with little trouble, ie OG's getting in the way.

As I said earlier, the MLB can be smaller in stature with greater lateral quickness like Arthur Brown, Khaseem Greene, and Beauharnias. They can flow to the ball in the run game, and not get smashed by pulling OG's in the power run game. They also get inot the hole quickly and stop it from being a gaping hole.

Then, they can also cover zone underneath and Man. This is what you need in today's NFL. Very Rarely do you get the 6'4 255 guy who can run like Urlacher when he was coming out in the draft.

No Minter for you?

Rohirrim
02-18-2013, 12:30 PM
Sounds like Minter is the guy for us. The breakdown on Manti reminds me of what they were saying about Maualuga.

Bmore Manning
02-18-2013, 12:32 PM
Let's name drop some prospects we like in the middle rounds.. Too soon?

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 12:42 PM
Let's name drop some prospects we like in the middle rounds.. Too soon?

Med dropped a couple names. Arthur Brown is probably a high 2nd. The thing is like people have said above, with LB's the game play tells the tale. LB's don't seem to move much after the combine and Pro days. Where they are projected at season's end is where they get drafted.

cmhargrove
02-18-2013, 12:44 PM
Let's name drop some prospects we like in the middle rounds.. Too soon?

If all has gone well and he has been working his ass hard at recovery - i like Mauti somewhere in rounds 5-6. It all depends on the recovery though. He might go really late or undrafted if no one gets to really check him out before April.

TheReverend
02-18-2013, 12:45 PM
That's why getting a real MIKE is so important tho. I don't think this is the scheme they want to be playing, I think it's one they are forced into because the MLB position is so incredibly bad.

They'd love to create more pressure up the middle by stunting those tackles and mixing things up a bit more. Until they solve the problem in the middle, they can't.

It won't change regardless of the mike backer.

Von is the centerpiece. We adjust our DL AND our LBs to put him in advantageous situations.

When he gets stonewalled by Baltimore, we're ****ed.

Rohirrim
02-18-2013, 12:45 PM
AJ Klein

ludo21
02-18-2013, 12:54 PM
Any Penn St guy

Ziggy
02-18-2013, 12:56 PM
It won't change regardless of the mike backer.

Von is the centerpiece. We adjust our DL AND our LBs to put him in advantageous situations.

When he gets stonewalled by Baltimore, we're ****ed.

Which is why a DT that can either collapse the pocket or penetrate is more important to this defense than a MLB.

Mediator12
02-18-2013, 01:16 PM
Which is why a DT that can either collapse the pocket or penetrate is more important to this defense than a MLB.

No, that is NOT how JDR likes his DT to play. The DT's are big bodied cloggers who can get interior bull rushing on pass plays. They are not one gap pentrators like some teams use. DEN focus's inside out DL play, meaning they clog the middle and force the play outside.

Would a guy like Sharrif Floyd upgade the DL, yes. However, using him as two gapping run stuffer is a complete waste of his talents. Bust worthy waste of his talents ;D

There are a LOT of big bodied DT's that will be available in the 3-5 rounds. That's the kind of DT's JDR has always used. Elite pass rushing, penetrating DT's is not the scheme JDR has favored over the years. He favors the Clog the inside and force the run to the LB speed. He also likes more athletic LB's who can cover versus thumpers.

Requiem
02-18-2013, 01:24 PM
Thanks for all this, Med.

Floyd has 2-gap experience at Florida, though I agree that he is best suited as an 3-tech penetrating DT. I do hope we give Brown and Greene looks @ LB.

TheReverend
02-18-2013, 01:25 PM
Which is why a DT that can either collapse the pocket or penetrate is more important to this defense than a MLB.

No, that is NOT how JDR likes his DT to play. The DT's are big bodied cloggers who can get interior bull rushing on pass plays. They are not one gap pentrators like some teams use. DEN focus's inside out DL play, meaning they clog the middle and force the play outside.

Would a guy like Sharrif Floyd upgade the DL, yes. However, using him as two gapping run stuffer is a complete waste of his talents. Bust worthy waste of his talents ;D

There are a LOT of big bodied DT's that will be available in the 3-5 rounds. That's the kind of DT's JDR has always used. Elite pass rushing, penetrating DT's is not the scheme JDR has favored over the years. He favors the Clog the inside and force the run to the LB speed. He also likes more athletic LB's who can cover versus thumpers.

^ that and more importantly, IMO, a DT can't cover open passing lanes. That was the largest deficiency in our defensive unit last year, by a LARGE margin, imo.

Bacchus
02-18-2013, 01:32 PM
No, that is NOT how JDR likes his DT to play. The DT's are big bodied cloggers who can get interior bull rushing on pass plays. They are not one gap pentrators like some teams use. DEN focus's inside out DL play, meaning they clog the middle and force the play outside.

Would a guy like Sharrif Floyd upgade the DL, yes. However, using him as two gapping run stuffer is a complete waste of his talents. Bust worthy waste of his talents ;D

There are a LOT of big bodied DT's that will be available in the 3-5 rounds. That's the kind of DT's JDR has always used. Elite pass rushing, penetrating DT's is not the scheme JDR has favored over the years. He favors the Clog the inside and force the run to the LB speed. He also likes more athletic LB's who can cover versus thumpers.

John Henderson and Marcus Stroud were great big bodied DTs that dominated. Shariff Floyd is of the same mold. JDR is still def. cord in Denver and if Floyd is there at #28 I can almost promise you he will be a Bronco.

BroncoBuff
02-18-2013, 01:33 PM
The great defenses have those guys as leaders. The average defenses have 2 down thumpers and replace the Mike on Passing snaps.

I suppose these happen pretty often, "great defense = Mike leader," "average defense = 2-down thumper." But this team is different ... Miller's a DPOY candidate, and Woodyard graded out the best 4-3 pass coverage OLB in the league this year. So why worry about finding some every down Mike-leader when he's just gonna take snaps away from our best playmakers?

Mays and Brooking are thumpers, and we finished with the #3 defense in the league.

MagicHef
02-18-2013, 01:36 PM
How is Ellerbee in coverage?

gyldenlove
02-18-2013, 01:38 PM
^ that and more importantly, IMO, a DT can't cover open passing lanes. That was the largest deficiency in our defensive unit last year, by a LARGE margin, imo.

I agree, poor coverage in the middle by linebackers and safeties especially was the biggest problem, even mediocre tight ends completely killed us.

g6matty
02-18-2013, 02:09 PM
^ that and more importantly, IMO, a DT can't cover open passing lanes. That was the largest deficiency in our defensive unit last year, by a LARGE margin, imo.

http://ronenews92fm.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/jj-watt-2.jpg?w=645

Ziggy
02-18-2013, 02:11 PM
No, that is NOT how JDR likes his DT to play. The DT's are big bodied cloggers who can get interior bull rushing on pass plays. They are not one gap pentrators like some teams use. DEN focus's inside out DL play, meaning they clog the middle and force the play outside.

Would a guy like Sharrif Floyd upgade the DL, yes. However, using him as two gapping run stuffer is a complete waste of his talents. Bust worthy waste of his talents ;D

There are a LOT of big bodied DT's that will be available in the 3-5 rounds. That's the kind of DT's JDR has always used. Elite pass rushing, penetrating DT's is not the scheme JDR has favored over the years. He favors the Clog the inside and force the run to the LB speed. He also likes more athletic LB's who can cover versus thumpers.

The days of Stroud and Henderson starting for JDR in Jacksonville were thier best years. They both averaged about 3.5 sacks/year each in a run heavy NFL, but they were very disruptive. If they weren't collapsing the pocket or penetrating, they were batting down passes. I don't know how much Jaguars football you watched back then Med, but thier defense was built around those 2. The year that Kris Jenkins played for him in Carolina, he had 7 sacks.

I'm not arguing that JDR likes the bigger 1 gap Dtackles, I'm just saying that his best defenses come when those guys can get to the QB as well as plug. Brandon Williams out of Missouri Southern is the type of guy that could come in and give JDR that interior pass rushing presence. If you build up this interior line, you can still have a great defense with an average MLB lining up between Von and Woodyard/Tevathan.

Rascal
02-18-2013, 02:15 PM
As long as the first pick is on defense I will approve.

BroncoBuff
02-18-2013, 02:24 PM
There are a LOT of big bodied DT's that will be available in the 3-5 rounds. That's the kind of DT's JDR has always used. Penetrating DT's are not the scheme JDR has favored over the years. He favors the Clog the inside and force the run to the LB speed. He also likes more athletic LB's who can cover versus thumpers.

Couple hours ago on Denver Post:

Itís natural to speculate Jacksonville free-agent Terrance Knighton would be on the Broncosí radar. Denver defensive coordiantor Jack Del Rio was the Jaguarsí head coach who selected Knighton out of Temple in the third round of the 2009 draft. And Knighton is more natural at his playing weight of 330 pounds, the kind of big body Fox and Del Rio prefer in their defensive tackles.
http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/02/18/broncos-position-of-need-defensive-tackles/18481/

TheReverend
02-18-2013, 02:29 PM
[IMG]http://ronenews92fm.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/jj-watt-2.jpg?w=645[IMG]

Oh please. You're gonna use literally the most dominant defensive season I've ever seen and cite it like it could be achieved with regularity?

gunns
02-18-2013, 02:54 PM
As long as the first pick is on defense I will approve.

Amen.

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 03:12 PM
I suppose these happen pretty often, "great defense = Mike leader," "average defense = 2-down thumper." But this team is different ... Miller's a DPOY candidate, and Woodyard graded out the best 4-3 pass coverage OLB in the league this year. So why worry about finding some every down Mike-leader when he's just gonna take snaps away from our best playmakers?

Mays and Brooking are thumpers, and we finished with the #3 defense in the league.

A 3-down MLB won't take snaps away from Woodyard and Miller. The point about finding a 3-down MLB is you can keep him in to cover middle zones most of the time instead of trotting in new secondary groups to replace the 2-down thumper.

And pretty importantly, you don't have to transfer the green dot to somebody else to call the plays. Which would you like to have, one man wearing the green dot 85-90% of the time, or two different guys aligning the defense, 60-40 split?

Seems to me you'd want one guy wearing the green dot as the leader of the defense as much as you can.

g6matty
02-18-2013, 03:37 PM
Oh please. You're gonna use literally the most dominant defensive season I've ever seen and cite it like it could be achieved with regularity?

no haha i was just being a dick

TheReverend
02-18-2013, 04:39 PM
no haha i was just being a dick

I mean... I agree if that were an option.

****, I'd trade every ****ing defensive player on the roster to get 2012 JJ Watt every year.

g6matty
02-18-2013, 04:57 PM
I mean... I agree if that were an option.

****, I'd trade every ****ing defensive player on the roster to get 2012 JJ Watt every year.

miller for watt straight up? jw

TheReverend
02-18-2013, 05:03 PM
no haha i was just being a dick

I mean... I agree if that were an option.

****, I'd trade every ****ing defensive player on the roster to get 2012 JJ Watt every year.

Bmore Manning
02-18-2013, 05:05 PM
Med dropped a couple names. Arthur Brown is probably a high 2nd. The thing is like people have said above, with LB's the game play tells the tale. LB's don't seem to move much after the combine and Pro days. Where they are projected at season's end is where they get drafted.

LOL!! I have said Arthur Brown and Kasheem Green for quiet some time.. I was thinking middle round MLBs 3-5 range.. Cause of that OMane draft we are holding things close to the chest..

Bmore Manning
02-18-2013, 05:09 PM
If all has gone well and he has been working his ass hard at recovery - i like Mauti somewhere in rounds 5-6. It all depends on the recovery though. He might go really late or undrafted if no one gets to really check him out before April.

I just dropped his very name and even said in the fifth round! I would love Thr selection and value, and even later would be icing on the cake!

Bmore Manning
02-18-2013, 05:13 PM
AJ Klein

He or Mauti in the 4th-5th would be great value picks! And could compete with Irving! I'm really liking what I have seen from him but wanted to keep it quiet..

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 06:03 PM
It won't change regardless of the mike backer.

Von is the centerpiece. We adjust our DL AND our LBs to put him in advantageous situations.

When he gets stonewalled by Baltimore, we're ****ed.

You really think the scheme would not change if we had a real 3-down MLB? I think it would. As it is right now, the scheme is compensating for the lack of a 3-down MLB.

It's a whole different discussion about what they were trying to do on D in the Balt playoff game, JDR changed all kinds of things. Miller was not attacking, more playing back in coverage, and Balt went right the whole day for their big plays. They didn't go left side at all, they went right all day. JDR didn't try to switch Elvis to the left side to give Balt a different look.

Maybe they couldn't have stopped Balt no matter what they did, but I'm saying the D scheme would have been helped with a real 3-down MLB.

Play2win
02-18-2013, 06:12 PM
I think the Ravens drugged Champ, that's the only explanation.

Mediator12
02-18-2013, 06:23 PM
John Henderson and Marcus Stroud were great big bodied DTs that dominated. Shariff Floyd is of the same mold. JDR is still def. cord in Denver and if Floyd is there at #28 I can almost promise you he will be a Bronco.

No, Floyd is Warren Sapp 3 technique quick with strength. Stroud and Henderson were Enormous run Stuffers with power, just like I said JDR likes his DT's. He modeled it after Siragusa and Sam Adams in BAL. Those dudes were quick in a phone booth, but not one gap penetrators like Sapp and Floyd.

If Floyd is there at 28, I gaurantee he would be the BPA by a large margin, and therefore he would hopefully be DEN's pick. However, I would be Shocked if he made it to 28.

The point of all of this still stands though. A real MIKE is a leader who elevates the defense and makes it play better than the sum of its parts. A 3 down player who commands the huddle and is balanced in Run and pass. That is why MIKE's are so damn important. DT's can be dominant, CB's can be dominant, and DE and OLB's can be dominant. However, A dominant MIKE is almost impossible to scheme out of the game. Drop a dominant MIKE in this defense and it takes the next step. ELITE level defense. One that has no more true weakness. Hell even Moore was not a weakness last year, just not a strength and an idiot with the biggest game of his life on the line.

Drop a dominant MIKE who can rush, play the run, and cover and there is no better investment to make this Defense dominant for 60 minutes.

Rascal
02-18-2013, 06:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjydMAu5kfg

Looks weak at the POA and struggles making open field tackles.

Although he did look comfortable defending the pass against a spread offense and seemed to make the right reads. Although his athletic ability seemed to prohibit him from making those plays (hence the missed open field tackles).

Bmore Manning
02-18-2013, 07:05 PM
He's a poor man's James Lariniuts.. Reminds me of Pat Angerer from Indy..
That's his downfall, he doesn't have tremendous athleticism.. But he has great instincts, awareness, and fundamentals.. If the FO really wants to give Irving the opportunity, I would prefer a mid round guy like Mauti or Klein to come in and compete..

Rascal
02-18-2013, 07:09 PM
He's a poor man's James Lariniuts.. Reminds me of Pat Angerer from Indy..
That's his downfall, he doesn't have tremendous athleticism.. But he has great instincts, awareness, and fundamentals.. If the FO really wants to give Irving the opportunity, I would prefer a mid round guy like Mauti or Klein to come in and compete..

I would agree with that.

Rascal
02-18-2013, 07:12 PM
I'm watching some Nate Irving film, and I gotta say he looks better than most of the guys in the draft I've seen.

DBroncos4life
02-18-2013, 07:15 PM
I'm watching some Nate Irving film, and I gotta say he looks better than most of the guys in the draft I've seen.

Is that before or after his injury?

Rascal
02-18-2013, 07:22 PM
Is that before or after his injury?

not sure

here is one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKArcBAlXZY

DBroncos4life
02-18-2013, 07:28 PM
not sure

here is one:

https:// 1www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKArcBAlXZY

That's after. 2008-2009 is when he was injured.

Rascal
02-18-2013, 07:33 PM
That's after. 2008-2009 is when he was injured.

that's what I meant

not sure he will translate to more than a 2 down LB though, seeing some questionable pass defense skills

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gA-nz5OldA

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 07:40 PM
No, Floyd is Warren Sapp 3 technique quick with strength. Stroud and Henderson were Enormous run Stuffers with power, just like I said JDR likes his DT's. He modeled it after Siragusa and Sam Adams in BAL. Those dudes were quick in a phone booth, but not one gap penetrators like Sapp and Floyd.

If Floyd is there at 28, I gaurantee he would be the BPA by a large margin, and therefore he would hopefully be DEN's pick. However, I would be Shocked if he made it to 28.

The point of all of this still stands though. A real MIKE is a leader who elevates the defense and makes it play better than the sum of its parts. A 3 down player who commands the huddle and is balanced in Run and pass. That is why MIKE's are so damn important. DT's can be dominant, CB's can be dominant, and DE and OLB's can be dominant. However, A dominant MIKE is almost impossible to scheme out of the game. Drop a dominant MIKE in this defense and it takes the next step. ELITE level defense. One that has no more true weakness. Hell even Moore was not a weakness last year, just not a strength and an idiot with the biggest game of his life on the line.

Drop a dominant MIKE who can rush, play the run, and cover and there is no better investment to make this Defense dominant for 60 minutes.

Agreed.

Bmore Manning
02-18-2013, 07:40 PM
So.. I'm not exactly grasping the issue with Irving. He was injured in college, but returned and continued to play at a high level, and I remember how much Parcells loved Irving.. And he suffered through the lockout as all other rookies did. And what exactly is keeping him from claiming a spot that's a weak link in the defense, and when frankly he has little competition..?

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 07:50 PM
So.. I'm not exactly grasping the issue with Irving. He was injured in college, but returned and continued to play at a high level, and I remember how much Parcells loved Irving.. And he suffered through the lockout as all other rookies did. And what exactly is keeping him from claiming a spot that's a weak link in the defense, and when frankly he has little competition..?

Irving has just barely got himself into position as a good ST guy. He's had some snaps on D as a rookie and in his 2nd year, but did he really do anything noteworthy? Anything that stood out? Trevathan got more snaps than Irving did. The staff was waiting for DJ to come back, they didn't even consider Irving, it was Trevathan and hope DJ could come back and contribute.

Bmore Manning
02-18-2013, 07:55 PM
Irving has just barely got himself into position as a good ST guy. He's had some snaps on D as a rookie and in his 2nd year, but did he really do anything noteworthy? Anything that stood out? Trevathan got more snaps than Irving did. The staff was waiting for DJ to come back, they didn't even consider Irving, it was Trevathan and hope DJ could come back and contribute.

Does he mentally not grasp the play book, conceptual and physical elements associated with the game at the pro level, or a hard time adjusting to the speed?

Or.. Is he not physically what they had hoped he would be..? I don't understand how he goes from special teamer and back-up limited used LB to competing as our starting Mike..?

Either he shows real promise in practice or we are in serious trouble..if we are going to trot him out there..

Rascal
02-18-2013, 08:02 PM
So.. I'm not exactly grasping the issue with Irving. He was injured in college, but returned and continued to play at a high level, and I remember how much Parcells loved Irving.. And he suffered through the lockout as all other rookies did. And what exactly is keeping him from claiming a spot that's a weak link in the defense, and when frankly he has little competition..?

the more i watch, the more I think it's a combination of not grasping the play book and being a 3-4 ILB rather than a 4-3 MLB (there is a big difference despite what some people say). Which also explains why Parcells, a 3-4 guy, loved him

anybody remember how he did in the senior bowl?

Bmore Manning
02-18-2013, 08:31 PM
the more i watch, the more I think it's a combination of not grasping the play book and being a 3-4 ILB rather than a 4-3 MLB (there is a big difference despite what some people say). Which also explains why Parcells, a 3-4 guy, loved him

anybody remember how he did in the senior bowl?

Your referring to his downhill style as being a better fit in a 3-4..? I thought he was solid in coverage in college?

DBroncos4life
02-18-2013, 08:32 PM
the more i watch, the more I think it's a combination of not grasping the play book and being a 3-4 ILB rather than a 4-3 MLB (there is a big difference despite what some people say). Which also explains why Parcells, a 3-4 guy, loved him

anybody remember how he did in the senior bowl?

here is what I dug up,

6. At inside linebacker, top-rated Greg Jones struggled much of the week as his limited range and coverage skills were exposed in one-on-one drills. Of the inside linebackers, Nate Irving had the strongest week, showing the best combination of pass coverage and run-stopping ability.

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 08:57 PM
Does he mentally not grasp the play book, conceptual and physical elements associated with the game at the pro level, or a hard time adjusting to the speed?

Or.. Is he not physically what they had hoped he would be..? I don't understand how he goes from special teamer and back-up limited used LB to competing as our starting Mike..?

Either he shows real promise in practice or we are in serious trouble..if we are going to trot him out there..

I doubt Irving can grasp the playbook. Otherwise, he would have been playing instead of a rookie Trevathan. Irving isn't gonna be the MLB, and they'd be crazy to even try him there.

Lestat
02-18-2013, 09:22 PM
i've said it before and i'll continue to say it. we need a dynamic stud at MLB for this defense to really take off. we improved greatly and did well but our issues at MLB and DB were exposed in the playoffs.

Tombstone RJ
02-18-2013, 09:44 PM
With all the depth at DT in this draft, there's a good possibility that the Broncos can get a good MLB prospect at #28 (in other words I think teams will take a DT first, before an ILB, thus sliding the MLB/ILB down in the draft). I'd love Minter but he will be gone.

pricejj
02-18-2013, 09:51 PM
I doubt Irving can grasp the playbook. Otherwise, he would have been playing instead of a rookie Trevathan. Irving isn't gonna be the MLB, and they'd be crazy to even try him there.

Trevathan plays in Nickel because he's probably the Broncos best coverage LB.

Irving was backup MLB until the FO thought it necessary to bring in Brooking to cover in case Mays bombed (which he did). They moved Irving (temporarily) to SAM so he could get some PT...and he started getting some action as the year went on.

Brooking played decently for the Broncos. Irving wouldn't have to do much to duplicate that effort, and could potentially be much better.

Cito Pelon
02-18-2013, 10:30 PM
Trevathan plays in Nickel because he's probably the Broncos best coverage LB.

Irving was backup MLB until the FO thought it necessary to bring in Brooking to cover in case Mays bombed (which he did). They moved Irving (temporarily) to SAM so he could get some PT...and he started getting some action as the year went on.

Brooking played decently for the Broncos. Irving wouldn't have to do much to duplicate that effort, and could potentially be much better.

Irving is totally lost at MLB, he'll never be a MLB in the NFL, he's a decent ST guy at best. If the staff is depending on him and Steven Johnson as MLB's they're some dumb mf'rs. DJ is the best among those three, and they'd be stupid to go into the season with DJ as the best.

pricejj
02-18-2013, 10:39 PM
Irving is totally lost at MLB, he'll never be a MLB in the NFL, he's a decent ST guy at best. If the staff is depending on him and Steven Johnson as MLB's they're some dumb mf'rs. DJ is the best among those three, and they'd be stupid to go into the season with DJ as the best.

I think you're wrong hoss. I bet Irving is the Broncos most improved player in 2013.

enjolras
02-18-2013, 11:48 PM
I think you're wrong hoss. I bet Irving is the Broncos most improved player in 2013.

I think he certainly could be. I have no idea how anyone can draw conclusions about his play at MLB, we've hardly seen him play in the middle.

lonestar
02-19-2013, 02:11 AM
Do we have enough cash to sign Wes Welker, Dwight Freeney, Ed Reed, Aqib Talib, Kevin Vickerson and all our draft picks?

Probably only one of them Vickerson as we speak

Bacchus
02-19-2013, 03:40 AM
Irving is totally lost at MLB, he'll never be a MLB in the NFL, he's a decent ST guy at best. If the staff is depending on him and Steven Johnson as MLB's they're some dumb mf'rs. DJ is the best among those three, and they'd be stupid to go into the season with DJ as the best.

Irving was his rookie year with no training camp due to the lockout. Word out of Pigeon Valley is that they expect him to play much better there now.

Lolad
02-19-2013, 06:32 AM
I think you're wrong hoss. I bet Irving is the Broncos most improved player in 2013.

It better be "the dream" being most improved

BroncoInferno
02-19-2013, 07:09 AM
Assuming Minter is off the board at #28, Brown or Greene would be ideal in the 2nd round. Like Med said, we can get away with a smaller MLB because of the way we play defense.

Drek
02-19-2013, 07:10 AM
So.. I'm not exactly grasping the issue with Irving. He was injured in college, but returned and continued to play at a high level, and I remember how much Parcells loved Irving.. And he suffered through the lockout as all other rookies did. And what exactly is keeping him from claiming a spot that's a weak link in the defense, and when frankly he has little competition..?

The big question with Nate Irving, other than just grasping the game mentally like all other young players, has been what level of athleticism he's returned to post-car crash.

He wasn't injured in college, he was in a major car accident where he broke a rib which collapsed a lung, separated his shoulder, and had a compound fracture in one leg so severe they had to put it back together with a metal rod. He missed the entire '09 season as a result and was barely cleared to return to football in time for spring practices in 2010. While he played at a high level for college ball post-car accident he was far from the same athletically.

Add the lockout shortened season to that and Irving basically didn't get a real off-season of conditioning (not rehab) until this past off-season. Also, while he weighed in at 240 for the combine he was listed at 231 for much of his college career and packed on the extra pounds leading into the combine, not the best way to develop real functional strength.

He's basically had to have his body re-built into NFL condition by the Broncos training staff, and that training staff was completely overhauled last off-season, so it's not like he's had a ton of continuity. Pre-injury Irving was considered a very athletic sideline to sideline MLB, post injury he ran a 4.74 40 yard dash at his pro day. Those two traits aren't always mutually exclusive, but they generally are. This isn't a Greg Jones where everyone knew he was a downhill guy. Irving had great range as a RS sophomore and then suddenly was an in the box type as a senior (losing the junior year to injury). The Broncos gamble on him is that he can return to that sophomore level athletically given some time while still maturing mentally.

I'd be all for giving Irving a shot if a better MLB doesn't fall to us, but if someone like Manti Te'o falls to us in the first we'd be stupid not to jump all over him. Locking up a three down starter at MLB would be a game changer for our defense.

BroncoInferno
02-19-2013, 07:19 AM
The big question with Nate Irving, other than just grasping the game mentally like all other young players, has been what level of athleticism he's returned to post-car crash.

He wasn't injured in college, he was in a major car accident where he broke a rib which collapsed a lung, separated his shoulder, and had a compound fracture in one leg so severe they had to put it back together with a metal rod. He missed the entire '09 season as a result and was barely cleared to return to football in time for spring practices in 2010. While he played at a high level for college ball post-car accident he was far from the same athletically.

Add the lockout shortened season to that and Irving basically didn't get a real off-season of conditioning (not rehab) until this past off-season. Also, while he weighed in at 240 for the combine he was listed at 231 for much of his college career and packed on the extra pounds leading into the combine, not the best way to develop real functional strength.

He's basically had to have his body re-built into NFL condition by the Broncos training staff, and that training staff was completely overhauled last off-season, so it's not like he's had a ton of continuity. Pre-injury Irving was considered a very athletic sideline to sideline MLB, post injury he ran a 4.74 40 yard dash at his pro day. Those two traits aren't always mutually exclusive, but they generally are. This isn't a Greg Jones where everyone knew he was a downhill guy. Irving had great range as a RS sophomore and then suddenly was an in the box type as a senior (losing the junior year to injury). The Broncos gamble on him is that he can return to that sophomore level athletically given some time while still maturing mentally.

I'd be all for giving Irving a shot if a better MLB doesn't fall to us, but if someone like Manti Te'o falls to us in the first we'd be stupid not to jump all over him. Locking up a three down starter at MLB would be a game changer for our defense.

Good post. I have not thrown in the towel on Irving yet for the reasons you've stated. It will be interesting to see how the position is addressed (or not) in FA and the draft. If no significant resources are spent to address the position, that will say a lot about how they must feel regarding Irving's future.

Rascal
02-19-2013, 08:33 AM
Irving is totally lost at MLB, he'll never be a MLB in the NFL, he's a decent ST guy at best. If the staff is depending on him and Steven Johnson as MLB's they're some dumb mf'rs. DJ is the best among those three, and they'd be stupid to go into the season with DJ as the best.

That is an assumption. The simple fact of the matter is that we, the fans, are ignorant on this.

Bacchus
02-19-2013, 08:56 AM
The big question with Nate Irving, other than just grasping the game mentally like all other young players, has been what level of athleticism he's returned to post-car crash.

He wasn't injured in college, he was in a major car accident where he broke a rib which collapsed a lung, separated his shoulder, and had a compound fracture in one leg so severe they had to put it back together with a metal rod. He missed the entire '09 season as a result and was barely cleared to return to football in time for spring practices in 2010. While he played at a high level for college ball post-car accident he was far from the same athletically.

Add the lockout shortened season to that and Irving basically didn't get a real off-season of conditioning (not rehab) until this past off-season. Also, while he weighed in at 240 for the combine he was listed at 231 for much of his college career and packed on the extra pounds leading into the combine, not the best way to develop real functional strength.

He's basically had to have his body re-built into NFL condition by the Broncos training staff, and that training staff was completely overhauled last off-season, so it's not like he's had a ton of continuity. Pre-injury Irving was considered a very athletic sideline to sideline MLB, post injury he ran a 4.74 40 yard dash at his pro day. Those two traits aren't always mutually exclusive, but they generally are. This isn't a Greg Jones where everyone knew he was a downhill guy. Irving had great range as a RS sophomore and then suddenly was an in the box type as a senior (losing the junior year to injury). The Broncos gamble on him is that he can return to that sophomore level athletically given some time while still maturing mentally.

I'd be all for giving Irving a shot if a better MLB doesn't fall to us, but if someone like Manti Te'o falls to us in the first we'd be stupid not to jump all over him. Locking up a three down starter at MLB would be a game changer for our defense.

When I see Irving on the field he looks the part. He looks like he can be a great LBer. He is big and physical and he can run. Mentally, he has had problems and when he was at MLB he was reacting too slowly and getting caught in the wash. Now that he is more comfortable with the system and with the speed of the game I am anxious to see what he can do.

Bigdawg26
02-19-2013, 09:25 AM
With all the depth at DT in this draft, there's a good possibility that the Broncos can get a good MLB prospect at #28 (in other words I think teams will take a DT first, before an ILB, thus sliding the MLB/ILB down in the draft). I'd love Minter but he will be gone.

I think we are going to go MLB in the first because of the lack of depth we have. It just sounds real suspect that Elway and Co. will just settle for Irving and Johnson to battle for starting MLB. If so, I think we could get Minter or T'eo (assuming he falls). If they are off the board I am hoping we go safety (also assuming that we pick up Knighton and resign Big Vick). I would settle for Bostic or Nico Johnson in the third or late second though.

Drunken.Broncoholic
02-19-2013, 10:00 AM
Is it a smokescreen or stupidity that they think Irving and Johnson are solid at that position. To not even look for an upgrade at MLB?? What the **** is that.

Bacchus
02-19-2013, 10:02 AM
I doubt they would bet everything on Irving and Johnson. Unde rhte scenario where they do not draft a MLB I would bet they re-sign Williams and he would go into camp as the starting MLB and Irving and Johnson would try to take it from him.

I would be very comfortable with that scenario. I want a stud DT in the first round, a stud OL in the second and stud slot WR or RB in the 3rd.

DENVERDUI55
02-19-2013, 10:26 AM
I just hope somehow one of the 3 down MLB falls to Denver. Elway would be smart to have someone come up with dirt on the players they want and go public.

TheReverend
02-19-2013, 10:36 AM
I just hope somehow one of the 3 down MLB falls to Denver. Elway would be smart to have someone come up with dirt on the players they want and go public.

MLB or OL in the first round.

Requiem
02-19-2013, 10:38 AM
It would be absolutely criminal if Minter was on board and Denver passes him up, only to have Baltimore snag him up and have him play there for a decade plus. That sort of mistake will never be forgiven.

Mediator12
02-19-2013, 11:11 AM
It would be absolutely criminal if Minter was on board and Denver passes him up, only to have Baltimore snag him up and have him play there for a decade plus. That sort of mistake will never be forgiven.

Ed Reed all over again :wave:

Oh where is Ashlie Lesoftie now.....

TheReverend
02-19-2013, 11:17 AM
Ed Reed all over again :wave:

Oh where is Ashlie Lesoftie now.....

One of my all time favorite Shanahan moments was when Lelie held out wanting starter money because of the Walker trade, so Shanahan fined the **** out of him, pulled some of his signing bonus and sent him to ATL where he played for negative dollars.

Requiem
02-19-2013, 11:22 AM
Ed Reed all over again :wave:

Oh where is Ashlie Lesoftie now.....

Do you feel Minter is worth it @ #28?

TheReverend
02-19-2013, 11:23 AM
Do you feel Minter is worth it @ #28?

Of course he does. What a silly question :)

SonOfLe-loLang
02-19-2013, 11:46 AM
What do you guys think of Khaseem Greene.

Drunken.Broncoholic
02-19-2013, 12:09 PM
What do you guys think of Khaseem Greene.

Not sure but read his weaknesses and "over run plays and gets lost" sounds more of what we've had to endure. But I haven't seen much of him on film to really form an opinion. Are you high on him?

DENVERDUI55
02-19-2013, 12:18 PM
MLB or OL in the first round.

You wouldn't hear me complain about that one bit. Late in the first is great place for stud guards and centers. Denver needs the depth.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-19-2013, 12:19 PM
Not sure but read his weaknesses and "over run plays and gets lost" sounds more of what we've had to endure. But I haven't seen much of him on film to really form an opinion. Are you high on him?

I'm certainly no expert, but he's pretty athletic. I dont think he's a mike necessarily, but seems like he can do a bit of it all. Seems like a playmaker on D.

Mogulseeker
02-19-2013, 12:29 PM
This is why you don't draft for need. Just because your team needs something doesn't mean it's there. And teams that make the mistake of taking what they need hoping it's going to turn into more than it ever was are teams that are hovering around 4-8 wins every year.

It might just be me, but it seems like there haven't been very many great middle linebackers lately. It seems almost harder to find than a pass rusher.

I think Manti T'eo will amount to something pretty good. In a couple years no one is going to remember this whole girlfriend thing.

pricejj
02-19-2013, 04:08 PM
I think Manti T'eo will amount to something pretty good. In a couple years no one is going to remember this whole girlfriend thing.

Teo is one of the top 5 MIKE prospects in the last 5 years, even though he doesn't have elite speed.

The others are: Luke Kuechly, Dont'a Hightower, probably Rolando McClain, and Kevin Minter.

I'm hoping Irving takes one giant leap forward, because it sucks to waste draft picks.

Bacchus
02-19-2013, 05:13 PM
Teo is one of the top 5 MIKE prospects in the last 5 years, even though he doesn't have elite speed.

The others are: Luke Kuechly, Dont'a Hightower, probably Rolando McClain, and Kevin Minter.

I'm hoping Irving takes one giant leap forward, because it sucks to waste draft picks.

I highly disagree on Te-O. He will show that he is not a top 5 MLB in this draft. He misses tackles, he leaves his feet too early and he cannot get off of blocks. Just wait and see. He is going to disappoint.

lonestar
02-19-2013, 05:24 PM
I highly disagree on Te-O. He will show that he is not a top 5 MLB in this draft. He misses tackles, he leaves his feet too early and he cannot get off of blocks. Just wait and see. He is going to disappoint.

I have not been impressed with either him or olgetree in the games I have seen them in..

but having the national spotlight on one will warp the weak minded..

Kaylore
02-19-2013, 05:28 PM
I want to see what Teo's numbers are when he runs - or even if he runs at all. If he doesn't, that will smell of a red flag to me. It seems anytime a prospect refuses to run at the combine they end up busting.

TheReverend
02-19-2013, 08:10 PM
I want to see what Teo's numbers are when he runs - or even if he runs at all. If he doesn't, that will smell of a red flag to me. It seems anytime a prospect refuses to run at the combine they end up busting.

I'm really expecting closer to 4.7 than 4.6, if not creepin on 4.8

gyldenlove
02-19-2013, 08:13 PM
I'm really expecting closer to 4.7 than 4.6, if not creepin on 4.8

I would be very surprised at anything better than 4.65, I am expecting low 4.7s like you. I think Minter could really use the combine to jump up in the middle of the 1st if he runs even a high 4.5 time.

Drek
02-20-2013, 08:20 AM
I would be very surprised at anything better than 4.65, I am expecting low 4.7s like you. I think Minter could really use the combine to jump up in the middle of the 1st if he runs even a high 4.5 time.

I don't think there's much chance of that. I haven't seen anyone claim Minter as a special athlete, just a damn good football player with awesome field awareness.

I'd bet that of the three top ILB prospects Ogeltree will post by far the best 40 time, followed by Te'o, and Minter close behind him.

I don't expect any of them to measure out on par with Keuchly across the board, Ogeltree will be capable in the speed/agility drills but his bench is likely to be pretty low. Te'o likely is comparable or maybe even a bit better on the bench/strength skills but he'll likely come up short in speed/agility drills. Minter likely trails across the board.

Te'o throwing up a freakish series of speed/agility drills is the only real chance for a combine beast from the big three ILBs. But then we don't really want to see any of them do that anyway. A 4.4-4.5 40 and good numbers across the board from any of these guys likely pushes them out of our range. Right now we probably get our pick in the first.

TheReverend
02-20-2013, 08:42 AM
I don't think there's much chance of that. I haven't seen anyone claim Minter as a special athlete, just a damn good football player with awesome field awareness.

I'd bet that of the three top ILB prospects Ogeltree will post by far the best 40 time, followed by Te'o, and Minter close behind him.

I don't expect any of them to measure out on par with Keuchly across the board, Ogeltree will be capable in the speed/agility drills but his bench is likely to be pretty low. Te'o likely is comparable or maybe even a bit better on the bench/strength skills but he'll likely come up short in speed/agility drills. Minter likely trails across the board.

Te'o throwing up a freakish series of speed/agility drills is the only real chance for a combine beast from the big three ILBs. But then we don't really want to see any of them do that anyway. A 4.4-4.5 40 and good numbers across the board from any of these guys likely pushes them out of our range. Right now we probably get our pick in the first.

Minter ran sub 4.6 before. I doubt he'll do it again, but it's certainly not impossible.

Tombstone RJ
02-20-2013, 09:11 AM
IMHO Te'o will have to have a freakishly good combine to boost him into the first round.