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Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 07:30 AM
There's an obvious need to bolster the Offensive Line this offseason. In particular I think we see a glaring need to address the interior of the offensive line. But what I haven't seen addressed and a topic that we should really be discussing is what are the ripple effects?

For example, we have all seen mocks, or participated in a discussion, or saw someone else talking about drafting this player to take over at Guard/Center. Names like Warmack, Jones, Cooper, Warford, Bailey, Frederick, Winter. All these are players who could step in and contribute day one right?

Most of these names are Prospects who would address the need at Right Guard. If your selecting one of these players your using one of your premium 1-3 range picks for such a player. You wouldn't want to use that pick on someone who's not going to contribute right away.. Right?

Say you draft Warford in the second round, he could come in right away and play RG. What happens to Kuper? Surely he doesn't get paid almost $5 million dollars to be a back-up. Even if he took a pay cut, a $3 million dollar back-up? Well then Warford is your back-up right? But that's another second round premium pick on a player not contributing right away (Osweiler) catch my drift?

Say we draft DJ Fluker. He could no doubt step in day one and be the starter at RT. Franklin could kick inside to guard, or Fluker could even play RG. But what happens to Kuper? Again that's to high of a price tag for a back-up. But when healthy, Kuper is one of our better offensive linemen. Could he play Center or LG? Sure he could, frankly he could upgrade either position. But that would stunt the development of Walton/Beadles. Even though Beadles was a pro bowler and showed good improvement, Kuper would no doubt be better at LG than Beadles. Same thing with Walton, Walton showed great improvement prior to his injury, but who are we kidding Koppen was brought in and Blake drafted to push/replace Walton.

If you draft an early RT or RG, this will cause ripple effects in the OLine. Kuper either moves to Center, LG, takes one serious pay cut to be a back-up, is traded, or even released...

Let's discuss...

pricejj
02-14-2013, 08:53 AM
If Kuper can't get healthy by the end of training camp, the Broncos have these other four options at RG:
a) Manny Ramirez
b) Philip Blake
c) C.J. Davis
d) Quentin Saulsberry

Worst case scenario is Philip Blake is starting at RG in 2013. I'm comfortable with that. He was playing at RG during last training camp, I'm sure he has been preparing since then. I don't see the Broncos drafting an OL with one of their first 2 picks.

ColoradoBuff
02-14-2013, 09:07 AM
Blake will compete at C and if those are our 4 options for starter @ RG if Kuper isn't healthy....we are ****ed!

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 09:18 AM
Blake is unproven and did not look great in the pre season..

He was also drafted to play/compete at Center.

I like ManRam as a back-up..

I think we need depth at tackle, that's where the problem would be should one of our starters unfortunately go down..

But I was more curious about what we would do should we spend a high draft pick on right side of the line..

Traveler
02-14-2013, 09:19 AM
There's an obvious need to bolster the Offensive Line this offseason. In particular I think we see a glaring need to address the interior of the offensive line. But what I haven't seen addressed and a topic that we should really be discussing is what are the ripple effects?

For example, we have all seen mocks, or participated in a discussion, or saw someone else talking about drafting this player to take over at Guard/Center. Names like Warmack, Jones, Cooper, Warford, Bailey, Frederick, Winter. All these are players who could step in and contribute day one right?

Most of these names are Prospects who would address the need at Right Guard. If your selecting one of these players your using one of your premium 1-3 range picks for such a player. You wouldn't want to use that pick on someone who's not going to contribute right away.. Right?

Say you draft Warford in the second round, he could come in right away and play RG. What happens to Kuper? Surely he doesn't get paid almost $5 million dollars to be a back-up. Even if he took a pay cut, a $3 million dollar back-up? Well then Warford is your back-up right? But that's another second round premium pick on a player not contributing right away (Osweiler) catch my drift?

Say we draft DJ Fluker. He could no doubt step in day one and be the starter at RT. Franklin could kick inside to guard, or Fluker could even play RG. But what happens to Kuper? Again that's to high of a price tag for a back-up. But when healthy, Kuper is one of our better offensive linemen. Could he play Center or LG? Sure he could, frankly he could upgrade either position. But that would stunt the development of Walton/Beadles. Even though Beadles was a pro bowler and showed good improvement, Kuper would no doubt be better at LG than Beadles. Same thing with Walton, Walton showed great improvement prior to his injury, but who are we kidding Koppen was brought in and Blake drafted to push/replace Walton.

If you draft an early RT or RG, this will cause ripple effects in the OLine. Kuper either moves to Center, LG, takes one serious pay cut to be a back-up, is traded, or even released...

Let's discuss...

I asked Jeff Legwold about this very topic.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22583852/how-broncos-could-protect-investment-peyton-manning-nfl


So as to keep as much continuity as possible on the line, my preference would be to land a RT prospect (Fluker, if possible). Thus, allowing Franklin to move to his more natural OG position. If not Fluker, then get a OG (Warford) to replace either Kuper or Beadles, and Franklin remains at RT.

Either way Denver must upgrade in the interior and become a better rushing team.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 09:27 AM
I asked Jeff Legwold about this very topic.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22583852/how-broncos-could-protect-investment-peyton-manning-nfl


So as to keep as much continuity as possible on the line, my preference would be to land a RT prospect (Fluker, if possible). Thus, allowing Franklin to move to his more natural OG position. If not Fluker, then get a OG (Warford) to replace either Kuper or Beadles, and Franklin remains at RT.

Either way Denver must upgrade in the interior and become a better rushing team.

That's pretty cool! I am not sure how I feel about Franklin playing RG given his great play at RT. Should we draft a RT my preference would be Fluker even at 28. I'm not sure a CB, DT, DE, WR, RB, S would have the same impact that adding Fluker would to being a day 1 starter at RT.

I'm just not sure if I would rather Kuper play Center or LG. But if he did play LG and Blake emerged at Center, that would be one talented nasty OLine.

Requiem
02-14-2013, 09:31 AM
Keep Franklin at OT, draft an interior stud in this draft. Gots about like five of dem.

fontaine
02-14-2013, 09:35 AM
Last season was the first these guys played in the Manning offense youngers guys like Franklin/Beadles and even Walton before he got injured all improved dramatically.

The biggest thing for the OL is continuity of playing together in the same system. I don't think there a pressing need to change our starters, just let them continue to develop and log snaps together.

We have sufficient depth at G/C as well with Blake, Koppen (should be resigned) and Ramirez who started playing really well at the end of the season.

Maybe we could draft a T prospect to compete against Clark but I don't see a real big need here.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 09:36 AM
Keep Franklin at OT, draft an interior stud in this draft. Gots about like five of dem.

Where does Kuper play?

Requiem
02-14-2013, 09:39 AM
Where does Kuper play?

Oakland.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 09:39 AM
Last season was the first these guys played in the Manning offense youngers guys like Franklin/Beadles and even Walton before he got injured all improved dramatically.

The biggest thing for the OL is continuity of playing together in the same system. I don't think there a pressing need to change our starters, just let them continue to develop and log snaps together.

We have sufficient depth at G/C as well with Blake, Koppen (should be resigned) and Ramirez who started playing really well at the end of the season.

Maybe we could draft a T prospect to compete against Clark but I don't see a real big need here.

I'm with you, I think a back-up tackle is the most important need. But we can't ignore the fact that there may be some changes along the OLine. Should we draft a RT or RG with a premium pick, what do you do with Kuper?

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 09:40 AM
Oakland.

Trade/Release?

Requiem
02-14-2013, 09:42 AM
Trade/Release?

I was just kidding. IMHO, I would get a T and G at some point in time, whether it is FA or draft.

Kaylore
02-14-2013, 09:52 AM
It's an interesting situation. Between Kuper and Walton's health, Kopen's age and Clady's contract, there is some need. There is some depth. They have spent some draft picks there. However I am uncertain how good the depth is. Best case is Kuper and Walton both come back and play well. Worst case is neither do and they have to spend higher draft picks there. I did not like Blake from what I saw in camp. That said, if they go higher than a second on an interior offensive lineman in this draft, he better be an all-world player or there better not be anything at another position worth the pick.

Rascal
02-14-2013, 10:44 AM
I think you spend a early day 2 pick on a guard. At that spot in the draft you can still get a upper tier guard allowing us to address other positions earlier in the draft. Franklin has shown he can play RT in this league and do it well. Koppen is a FA so who knows if he will be back. Walton showed substantial progress last year and has had time to heal. Beadles has continued to progress and should continue to improve. Clady is top 5 LT.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 12:29 PM
I think you spend a early day 2 pick on a guard. At that spot in the draft you can still get a upper tier guard allowing us to address other positions earlier in the draft. Franklin has shown he can play RT in this league and do it well. Koppen is a FA so who knows if he will be back. Walton showed substantial progress last year and has had time to heal. Beadles has continued to progress and should continue to improve. Clady is top 5 LT.

If we spend a second or third rounder, which I would refer to as a premium pick on a Guard/Tackle, where does that put Kuper next season?

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 12:33 PM
It's an interesting situation. Between Kuper and Walton's health, Kopen's age and Clady's contract, there is some need. There is some depth. They have spent some draft picks there. However I am uncertain how good the depth is. Best case is Kuper and Walton both come back and play well. Worst case is neither do and they have to spend higher draft picks there. I did not like Blake from what I saw in camp. That said, if they go higher than a second on an interior offensive lineman in this draft, he better be an all-world player or there better not be anything at another position worth the pick.

Unless Warmack or Cooper fall, I could only see DJ Fluker/Larry Warford being considered as a day one pick for RT/RG.. If one of them was the pick, where do you put Kuper?

DBroncos4life
02-14-2013, 12:37 PM
Just get a damn RB worth a crap and watch the yards pile up. We call this the good player effect. See Manning for reference.

Play2win
02-14-2013, 12:44 PM
Where does Kuper play?

I really wouldn't count on Kuper playing even a snap next year. They need to move on, and plan on next season without him. If he can get healthy to actually play up to a standard, then that's just added bonus. But, I wouldn't count on it.

ludo21
02-14-2013, 12:45 PM
I think if we see a round 1 OL Clady is GONE! does the NFL do sign and trades?

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 12:54 PM
I really wouldn't count on Kuper playing even a snap next year. They need to move on, and plan on next season without him. If he can get healthy to actually play up to a standard, then that's just added bonus. But, I wouldn't count on it.

Then what do you do with Kuper and his contract? $4 million is a substantial cap hit to not play, when free agency and the draft aren't quiet here yet and we could make the necessary moves..

ludo21
02-14-2013, 12:59 PM
did i miss something where Kuper has a more serious injury than we know of? or are we just ASSUMING because he keeps breaking the same thing?

socalorado
02-14-2013, 01:04 PM
Why does DEN have to spend a draft pick on the O-line?
Regardless of the O-line situation depending on health or if the player is good or not, DEN can simply go into FA and get a nice option at OG or C. And no, these guys wont be too expensive.
Louis Vasquez SD (OG)
Brandon Moore NYJ (OG)
Matt Slauson NYJ (OG)
Fernando Velasco TEN (C)

Go get Velasquez or Moore for a modest contract.
Either will want out of a loser team, and be looking to win it all with a contender.
Then you have depth on the line, and DEN can let them all fight it out for a roster spot. DEN will still have enough $$$ in FA after some players re-work their contracts to go get another high-value FA. Relax.

Play2win
02-14-2013, 01:07 PM
Then what do you do with Kuper and his contract? $4 million is a substantial cap hit to not play, when free agency and the draft aren't quiet here yet and we could make the necessary moves..

That's where Elway is going to earn his money. I would hope he restructure to performance based markers. I just don't think he will any meaningful playing time next year. He really shouldn't play until he is fully healed, or he will be hurting the team bigtime.

2014 could be an entirely different story. But, then again, he could just turn into the next Willie Middlebrooks.

Play2win
02-14-2013, 01:11 PM
did i miss something where Kuper has a more serious injury than we know of? or are we just ASSUMING because he keeps breaking the same thing?

His body is breaking down. As soon as he gets somewhat healed from one injury another one happens from added stress/compensation it's under. Unless he takes a whole season off, it's not going to end well.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 01:13 PM
did i miss something where Kuper has a more serious injury than we know of? or are we just ASSUMING because he keeps breaking the same thing?

There's just been speculation that the front office has some general concerns about his long term future with the team because of his health..just putting some food for thought out there..

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 01:16 PM
Why does DEN have to spend a draft pick on the O-line?
Regardless of the O-line situation depending on health or if the player is good or not, DEN can simply go into FA and get a nice option at OG or C. And no, these guys wont be too expensive.
Louis Vasquez SD (OG)
Brandon Moore NYJ (OG)
Matt Slauson NYJ (OG)
Fernando Velasco TEN (C)

Go get Velasquez or Moore for a modest contract.
Either will want out of a loser team, and be looking to win it all with a contender.
Then you have depth on the line, and DEN can let them all fight it out for a roster spot. DEN will still have enough $$$ in FA after some players re-work their contracts to go get another high-value FA. Relax.

SoCal I usually like your ideas and player evaluation. But Vasquez is a very underrated talent and he's not going to sign for peanuts..

socalorado
02-14-2013, 01:33 PM
SoCal I usually like your ideas and player evaluation. But Vasquez is a very underrated talent and he's not going to sign for peanuts..

What do you think Moore or Velasquez will command on the open market?
Neither is getting Carl Nicks $$$. Moore is 30. He wants a ring. I could easily see him being signed to a 3 YR deal worth around 9 MIL. And he would play out 2 years at about 5.5 MIL.
I see DEN when its all done and said, and current contracts have been re-worked and players have been dumped like DJ, aquiring 3-4 players in FA.
Regardless of if they were released or their contract just expired.
RB, S, O-LINE, D-LINE.

Lestat
02-14-2013, 01:37 PM
Beadles season somewhat complicates things. Kuper and Clady were seen as the two guy you couldn't replace on the line to start the season.
now it would be Clady,Franklin and Beadles. so Kuper,Koppen and Walton are the guys up for replacement.
i think the OG talent is better than the OC talent and we need some mauler on the inside to road grade and get us open holes.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 01:57 PM
What do you think Moore or Velasquez will command on the open market?
Neither is getting Carl Nicks $$$. Moore is 30. He wants a ring. I could easily see him being signed to a 3 YR deal worth around 9 MIL. And he would play out 2 years at about 5.5 MIL.
I see DEN when its all done and said, and current contracts have been re-worked and players have been dumped like DJ, aquiring 3-4 players in FA.
Regardless of if they were released or their contract just expired.
RB, S, O-LINE, D-LINE.

Well $3 million seems fair for Moore, Vasquez will probably be around $5 million a season roughly. Don't get me wrong both are good players, but what do you do with Kuper if we signed one of them?

broncocalijohn
02-14-2013, 02:04 PM
If Kuper can't get healthy by the end of training camp, the Broncos have these other four options at RG:
a) Manny Ramirez
b) Philip Blake
c) C.J. Davis
d) Quentin Saulsberry

Worst case scenario is Philip Blake is starting at RG in 2013. I'm comfortable with that. He was playing at RG during last training camp, I'm sure he has been preparing since then. I don't see the Broncos drafting an OL with one of their first 2 picks.

Playing it in training camp doesnt equate to being comfortable. We have the $18 million man back there. Kuper is a question mark on being at 100% or staying at 100%. Blake is a center. I would hope we look at depth from someone who could play guard or both guard and tackle.

fontaine
02-14-2013, 04:46 PM
Just what are we trying to improve here?

Does Manning get sacked a whole lot? NO.
Do our RBs get tackled in the backfield? NO.

I understand the need to improve the OL, but not at the cost of young guys like Franklin, Walton, and Beadles who are only getting better and Kuper is going to be fine as well.

The biggest improvement from this offense needs to come from a RB that can actually break off chunks of yardage against 6 man fronts unlike Moreno/Hillman who couldn't, and better speed from the TE position where Dressen/Tamme are average/good players but not game breakers.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 05:04 PM
Just what are we trying to improve here?

Does Manning get sacked a whole lot? NO.
Do our RBs get tackled in the backfield? NO.

I understand the need to improve the OL, but not at the cost of young guys like Franklin, Walton, and Beadles who are only getting better and Kuper is going to be fine as well.

The biggest improvement from this offense needs to come from a RB that can actually break off chunks of yardage against 6 man fronts unlike Moreno/Hillman who couldn't, and better speed from the TE position where Dressen/Tamme are average/good players but not game breakers.

I think Elway intends for JT/Green to replace the Decker/Dreesen combo.

There is no bruiser back on the roster..

DENVERDUI55
02-14-2013, 06:40 PM
I know it would be a sin here to even mention but what about releasing Kuper saving some money and signing a guy like Brandon Moore or Vasquez for cheaper? Moore played quite well last year and could be a good stopgap for couple years. Draft OG and OT depth.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 08:40 PM
I know it would be a sin here to even mention but what about releasing Kuper saving some money and signing a guy like Brandon Moore or Vasquez for cheaper? Moore played quite well last year and could be a good stopgap for couple years. Draft OG and OT depth.

It was something I mentioned in the OP. $5 million dollars is a serious cap hit..

DENVERDUI55
02-14-2013, 08:49 PM
It was something I mentioned in the OP. $5 million dollars is a serious cap hit..

Is that what the hit would be? I thought if he was cut it would save almost all of his salary. If it is a hit he will be safe.

Bmore Manning
02-14-2013, 09:01 PM
Is that what the hit would be? I thought if he was cut it would save almost all of his salary. If it is a hit he will be safe.

I'm sorry let me say that correctly.. $5 million is a serious cap hit if he doesn't start.. That's too high priced as a back-up or for him to be on IR.