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View Full Version : Elvis Dumervil - What do the Broncos do with him?


crush17
02-04-2013, 10:18 AM
I would like to have some intelligent discussion about this subject - seeing as how we're in Offseason Mode and there's not much else going on.

I am curious to get everyone's thoughts:

Should the Broncos actively look to move Elvis Dumervil this offseason?

Don't get me wrong - I love Elvis. I love having him on this team. However, I do not feel that he is currently worth the amount he is getting paid. I am open to this line of thought based on two factors:

1) His production has not improved to where we hoped it would after his string of injuries and his play does not merit the salary he is due to make.

2) The Broncos need all the help they can get money wise if we are going to keep this team contending for a championship for the next 2-3 seasons.

I do believe we have a servicable replacement already waiting in Robert Ayers, and more help can be brought in via draft/free agency.

If we can move his salary AND get draft picks or a good player in return, it is a win/win for the Broncos.

Is it time for the Broncos to persue this move? Should they ask him to re-structure?

ludo21
02-04-2013, 10:21 AM
10 + sacks and a bunch of forced FF.... Im going to say hell no, he is invaluable as a pass rusher, you dont give those kinds of guys away.

but it does deserve a discussion for offseason pruposes..

crush17
02-04-2013, 10:26 AM
Really, for me it comes down to the amount of money his salary is eating up. I just don't know how we pay him, Kuper, Clady, Manning, Bailey, and then Von, DT and Decker when their contracts are due.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-04-2013, 10:28 AM
Move him no, restructure his contract, yes

MagicHef
02-04-2013, 10:28 AM
2011 & 2012 were the high points of his contract, salary wise. He gets cheaper every year from now on. Also, he is one of the 10 best passrushers in the league (or at least was this season).

Keep him.

Requiem
02-04-2013, 10:28 AM
Thanks for starting this discussion.

IIRC -- his deal ends up getting friendlier by two million a year less from here on out until it expires, but regardless I think he should be a candidate for re-structure for the two years over 10 million that still remaine. I can't imagine he gets dealt in a trade with how high his salary is. That is just my personal opinion on the matter. There is a lot to like about what he can do in the pass rushing department, but have always felt his performance against the run was average. However, he seemed to make some plays in that regard this year and did a great job forcing fumbles (6).

There are a lot of good edge rushers in this draft who I would like to have added to our dynamic. I don't think that Robert Ayers is a replacement for Dumervil, but someone we should consider retaining for depth as the future goes on. Jack Del Rio absolutely raved about Ayers when he was coaching at Mobile, so perhaps he will get an opportunity to shine in 2013.

FWIW, I think we clearly need to add another DL with some pass rushing talent to who we have right now. We had some great sack numbers this year, but we could put on some more firepower there. We didn't get much penetration against the Ravens in our Divisional Round loss.

In short. Dumervil should be a candidate for re-structure to save a couple million now and 2014. Don't think we have anyone who could realistically replace his production on top as of right now. Plus his middle name is Kool. Koolbeans.

Gutless Drunk
02-04-2013, 10:29 AM
Elvis, Champ & Manning need to volunteer for pay cuts. 10-20 Million a year is for players who make plays in the big time games.

jutang
02-04-2013, 10:33 AM
I think Miller and Dumerville could be more devestating with a DT that can collapse the pocket. Denver's fierce passrush can be neutralized if the quarterback can step up in the pocket. Keeping Doom is a must if Denver wants to win the Super Bowl in the next two years. With Denver's short window you need to keep all of their best players to have a realistic shot at winning.

spdirty
02-04-2013, 10:34 AM
First and foremost we need to teach him where to line up, and if he lines up offsides it's a penalty and hurts the goal of the team, no matter what happens on that particular play.

Bmore Manning
02-04-2013, 10:36 AM
I think it's interesting food for thought.. I have pondered this myself, there are some really good pass rushers in the draft. Someone like Oakfor may be there @28, and he is solid against the run as well as a pass rusher...

But.. this would largely depend on what we are getting back in return.. To even be considered..

Kaylore
02-04-2013, 10:46 AM
2011 & 2012 were the high points of his contract, salary wise. He gets cheaper every year from now on. Also, he is one of the 10 best passrushers in the league (or at least was this season).

Keep him.

I agree with this. His salary is going to get better as he gets older. If he tries to hold out then that's one thing, but I say let him keep his money. I am not against trading any player for the right price and I would listen to offers, but I don't think you need to go looking to move him.

g6matty
02-04-2013, 10:48 AM
cut him and trade for revis

oubronco
02-04-2013, 10:49 AM
If they would ever call holding he would have the sack record

BroncosfanGuy
02-04-2013, 10:59 AM
I think Miller and Dumerville could be more devestating with a DT that can collapse the pocket. Denver's fierce passrush can be neutralized if the quarterback can step up in the pocket. Keeping Doom is a must if Denver wants to win the Super Bowl in the next two years. With Denver's short window you need to keep all of their best players to have a realistic shot at winning.

I agree with this. Denver still needs a disruptive interior pass rusher to take some of the burden off the edge rushers.

cut him and trade for revis

would probably work in Madden

TheReverend
02-04-2013, 10:59 AM
If you want to see a big drop in pressure from our defense, sure.

Not only will it remove Elvis' pressure, but it will have a large impact on Von's #s as well.

This isn't fantasy football.

enjolras
02-04-2013, 11:00 AM
http://ferringtonpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Mitt-Romney-Sucks-Here%E2%80%99s-Why-Photo-by-2bp.jpg

Heyneck
02-04-2013, 11:09 AM
cut him and trade for revis

What did we achieve with having Champ with no pass rush under the Shanny years get us?

eddie mac
02-04-2013, 11:14 AM
No need to restructure his deal considering there isn't $1 of guaranteed money left. I'd give him a new contract lowering the numbers a bit but giving him more guaranteed money.

mwill07
02-04-2013, 11:15 AM
he's currently the #11th highest paid DE in the league, and was 6th in the league for sacks from the DE position. Depending on how you measure him, he seems to be at least a top 10-20 DE relative to the rest of the league.

link (http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?year=2012&pos=DE&season=reg)

He seems to be playing up to the level of his contract, and as some underpaid guys start making what they are worth and Elvis' contract decreases, his pay relative to comparable DE's will only go down.

Keeping Elvis, even at his high contract level, is probably a value proposition at this point.

crush17
02-04-2013, 11:17 AM
he's currently the #11th highest paid DE in the league, and was 6th in the league for sacks from the DE position. Depending on how you measure him, he seems to be at least a top 10-20 DE relative to the rest of the league.

link (http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?year=2012&pos=DE&season=reg)

He seems to be playing up to the level of his contract, and as some underpaid guys start making what they are worth and Elvis' contract decreases, his pay relative to comparable DE's will only go down.

Keeping Elvis, even at his high contract level, is probably a value proposition at this point.



Good stuff. Makes me feel a lot better about the situation.
I still have concerns about how this team is supposed to be able to pay all of it's core players at this point though.

mustangtoby
02-04-2013, 11:17 AM
I don't understand. You pay good money for good players. So when you have a good player under contract, why would you move him? Makes no sense to me...

Drunken.Broncoholic
02-04-2013, 11:19 AM
His contract wasn't just for future seasons. It was rewarding him for the seasons he overachieved on his previous contract.

Right now only fans are even talking about this. The FO is firm on him. JDR gets another offseason to build around miller and doom. Can't break that up.

2KBack
02-04-2013, 11:23 AM
I'm more interested in getting a DE to play opposite of him so we can keep Wolfe at DT

gyldenlove
02-04-2013, 11:27 AM
There is no incentive to restructure his deal, it gets cheaper every year. All you achieve by restructuring this year is that you have to cut him next year to avoid the cap escalation consequences. We have him at decreasing cap numbers the next 3 seasons.

bpc
02-04-2013, 11:30 AM
Love me some Elvis but his potential is capped in the 4-3. He'll always be an undersized guy that won't be a huge impact with run defense.

If Denver could make a move to sign Paul Kruger closer to home (from Utah) to a mid-level contract ($4-5million) I would be open to trading Elvis. Sounds like Baltimore understands it will not be able to keep PK with their salary constraints.

MagicHef
02-04-2013, 11:41 AM
Love me some Elvis but his potential is capped in the 4-3. He'll always be an undersized guy that won't be a huge impact with run defense.

If Denver could make a move to sign Paul Kruger closer to home (from Utah) to a mid-level contract ($4-5million) I would be open to trading Elvis. Sounds like Baltimore understands it will not be able to keep PK with their salary constraints.

Five times as many missed tackles says Kruger isn't really a better run defender than Elvis.

Also, he is not as good at rushing the passer.

mwill07
02-04-2013, 11:41 AM
I'm more interested in getting a DE to play opposite of him so we can keep Wolfe at DT

I think we've got capable guys on the roster right now that could fill that spot - Hunter was apparently a stud last TC before he got hurt. Then there's Ayers and Malik Jackson.

It's my opinion that the DE opposite Doom is less important anyways, with Von playing mostly on that edge. all that DE needs to do is keep Von clean, and he will do his job.

It's also my understanding that DT is a tougher position to pick up in the NFL than DE is - more gap assignments, stunts, etc to pick up. That's why they had Wolfe playing the outside more in 2012, but the long-term plan on him is to transition him inside.

If we could have a starting line-up of Doom, Wolfe, Vickerson, and Ayers (or whomever) with Von Miller playing behind them in a joker type role - we could be a seriously awesome front 7 defensive team - depending on who we can find for MLB, of course.

g6matty
02-04-2013, 11:49 AM
What did we achieve with having Champ with no pass rush under the Shanny years get us?

add one von miller to duh mix. he himself equals the jets sack numbers total
lulzor.

pick your poisoin man. champ or revis.

there is lots of guys we need to do something with this off season whether its cut or fix there money

dj kuper mays caldwell . dimerville has a few mill to give up with his high ass salary

LetsGoBroncos
02-04-2013, 12:08 PM
I'm def in for getting rid of him if he won't take a big pay cut. I feel like he is pretty average most of the time with an occasional sack.

Powderaddict
02-04-2013, 12:17 PM
With today's NFL, pass rushers are extremely important.

No way we get rid of Doom. He's worth every penny.

bpc
02-04-2013, 12:24 PM
Five times as many missed tackles says Kruger isn't really a better run defender than Elvis.

Also, he is not as good at rushing the passer.

I'm interested to see where these stats are. Could you link it? I watched Kruger play yesterday, and against us, I thought he did a damn good job in the pass and rush department. Looks like he's coming on which is indicated by his sack totals going from 0, 1, 5, 9.5 this year.

2KBack
02-04-2013, 12:25 PM
I think we've got capable guys on the roster right now that could fill that spot - Hunter was apparently a stud last TC before he got hurt. Then there's Ayers and Malik Jackson.

It's my opinion that the DE opposite Doom is less important anyways, with Von playing mostly on that edge. all that DE needs to do is keep Von clean, and he will do his job.

It's also my understanding that DT is a tougher position to pick up in the NFL than DE is - more gap assignments, stunts, etc to pick up. That's why they had Wolfe playing the outside more in 2012, but the long-term plan on him is to transition him inside.

If we could have a starting line-up of Doom, Wolfe, Vickerson, and Ayers (or whomever) with Von Miller playing behind them in a joker type role - we could be a seriously awesome front 7 defensive team - depending on who we can find for MLB, of course.

I agree that MLB should be the number 1 priority to the off season. A good all around mike can keep Von Miller down around the line of scrimmage where he belongs. I would still like another disruptive threat on the line. Maybe Wolfe takes another step, maybe Hunter final got it, Ayers improves every year...but very slowly. I would really like one more guy that needs accounting and can screw up some of the blocking.

MagicHef
02-04-2013, 12:35 PM
I'm interested to see where these stats are. Could you link it? I watched Kruger play yesterday, and against us, I thought he did a damn good job in the pass and rush department. Looks like he's coming on which is indicated by his sack totals going from 0, 1, 5, 9.5 this year.

PFF.

Here's something interesting:

Elvis rushed from the left 117 times, compared to 371 times from the right. However, 7 of his sacks came when he rushed from the left.

bombay
02-04-2013, 01:12 PM
If they would ever call holding he would have the sack record

Agree. I've never seen another player be held with the regularity it happens to Elvis. Never called.

Drunken.Broncoholic
02-04-2013, 01:21 PM
I don't think manning would want him replaced with a rookie that will need time to progress. Manning doesn't have much time left and its win now mode.

cmhargrove
02-04-2013, 01:29 PM
Let's worry about DJ first. I would rather get rid of excess baggage than cut the guys that are actually making a positive difference.

If you could work a blockbuster trade (which is highly doubtful) then go ahead, but otherwise we need him to beat teams like the Patriots. This is a passing league and his numbers are consistent year after year. He has always been a high-performing team player.

A restructured contract sounds perfect, and I don't know why he wouldn't want to help chip in to the superbowl effort.

crush17
02-04-2013, 01:33 PM
As more and more people reply, and I get more research from other sites - his deal is much easier to swallow than I had previously thought and gets more team friendly in the later stages of the contract.

I am glad I posted this here today because it led me to other information and helped to change my thought process.

I now feel strongly that it is absolutely worth keeping him here.

DJ Williams on the other hand....

Bmore Manning
02-04-2013, 01:43 PM
I don't think manning would want him replaced with a rookie that will need time to progress. Manning doesn't have much time left and its win now mode.

Let me play Devils Advocate here for a second.. Peyton would not say you cannot get rid of Doom. He's a player, he's not in personnel, he has to trust in these coaches to put the team in the best position to win. Now, I do think that if they traded Doom for picks and maybe got a player as well, and with that freed up cap space went and got a dynamic piece to add to the offense, that PM wouldn't have bitter feelings.

I like Doom, but.. It's not too far fetched to think that a rookie could come in, like an Oakfor/Anash in the first round, and produce 10 sacks, and actually provide more of a stronger run support presence..

That in no way means I'm implying we are or should get rid of Doom!

Drunken.Broncoholic
02-04-2013, 01:51 PM
Let me play Devils Advocate here for a second.. Peyton would not say you cannot get rid of Doom. He's a player, he's not in personnel, he has to trust in these coaches to put the team in the best position to win. Now, I do think that if they traded Doom for picks and maybe got a player as well, and with that freed up cap space went and got a dynamic piece to add to the offense, that PM wouldn't have bitter feelings.

I like Doom, but.. It's not too far fetched to think that a rookie could come in, like an Oakfor/Anash in the first round, and produce 10 sacks, and actually provide more of a stronger run support presence..

That in no way means I'm implying we are or should get rid of Doom!

It's hard to hit when your picking in the high 20s. If we had a top 10 then I'd be more inclined in your approach here. IMO before he became a bronco manning saw the doom and miller combo and his eyes lighted up.

I don't really see the same thing some others do with dumervil. I believe he's one of the best weapons on our defense. He disrupts so many plays. Rivers can be heard screaming his name in the middle of the night. Nightmares. I think his contract scares people but the worst of it is over. I wouldn't get rid of him at all. I would move him around a bit more. Like someone reported in here he's pretty good from the left.

Bmore Manning
02-04-2013, 02:07 PM
It's hard to hit when your picking in the high 20s. If we had a top 10 then I'd be more inclined in your approach here. IMO before he became a bronco manning saw the doom and miller combo and his eyes lighted up.

I don't really see the same thing some others do with dumervil. I believe he's one of the best weapons on our defense. He disrupts so many plays. Rivers can be heard screaming his name in the middle of the night. Nightmares. I think his contract scares people but the worst of it is over. I wouldn't get rid of him at all. I would move him around a bit more. Like someone reported in here he's pretty good from the left.

I personally think Oakfor could come in and have 10 sacks as a rookie and he plays very well against the run. Now, there's certainly no guarantee that he's available at 28..

As far as Doom rushing from the Left, that's ok with me on obvious passing downs, but surely not during base downs. That completely compromises the scheme if you put Doom as SDE.

MagicHef
02-04-2013, 02:08 PM
Let me play Devils Advocate here for a second.. Peyton would not say you cannot get rid of Doom. He's a player, he's not in personnel, he has to trust in these coaches to put the team in the best position to win. Now, I do think that if they traded Doom for picks and maybe got a player as well, and with that freed up cap space went and got a dynamic piece to add to the offense, that PM wouldn't have bitter feelings.

I like Doom, but.. It's not too far fetched to think that a rookie could come in, like an Oakfor/Anash in the first round, and produce 10 sacks, and actually provide more of a stronger run support presence..

That in no way means I'm implying we are or should get rid of Doom!

Which rookies have actually had 10+ sacks? In the last 5 years:

Von - 2nd overall
Aldon - 7th overall
Suh - 2nd overall
Orakpo - 13th overall

Not to mention one of them (Aldon) is pretty horrible in run defense. So yeah, at #28, it is pretty far fetched.

2KBack
02-04-2013, 02:14 PM
Which rookies have actually had 10+ sacks? In the last 5 years:

Von - 2nd overall
Aldon - 7th overall
Suh - 2nd overall
Orakpo - 13th overall

Not to mention one of them (Aldon) is pretty horrible in run defense. So yeah, at #28, it is pretty far fetched.

not to mention 3 of those played linebacker

MagicHef
02-04-2013, 02:25 PM
I get the sense that people think 11 sacks is normal for a passrusher. Twenty teams did not have anyone with 11 sacks this season. Only 4 teams had 2 guys with 11. Getting 29.5 sacks out of 2 guys is nuts. No other team in the league came close to that.

Bacchus
02-04-2013, 02:28 PM
I get the sense that people think 11 sacks is normal for a passrusher. Twenty teams did not have anyone with 11 sacks this season. Only 4 teams had 2 guys with 11. Getting 29.5 sacks out of 2 guys is nuts. No other team in the league came close to that.

EXACTLY!!!!!

srphoenix
02-04-2013, 02:32 PM
You never get rid of premium pass rushers unless they are past their prime. If heaven forbid Von Miller went down, Dumervil would still be a top 5 capable pass rusher on this team.

DENVERDUI55
02-04-2013, 02:44 PM
Love me some Elvis but his potential is capped in the 4-3. He'll always be an undersized guy that won't be a huge impact with run defense.

If Denver could make a move to sign Paul Kruger closer to home (from Utah) to a mid-level contract ($4-5million) I would be open to trading Elvis. Sounds like Baltimore understands it will not be able to keep PK with their salary constraints.

The 4-3 under that Denver runs is a 3-4 basically. Even in Dooms 18 sack year most of his sacks came with a hand in the dirt. I would take Kruger over him for sure and be open to trading Elvis.

KipCorrington25
02-04-2013, 02:48 PM
Keep... getting ride of talent and replacing them with cast offs was the McCheat model and we see how well that worked.

Bmore Manning
02-04-2013, 02:49 PM
I get the sense that people think 11 sacks is normal for a passrusher. Twenty teams did not have anyone with 11 sacks this season. Only 4 teams had 2 guys with 11. Getting 29.5 sacks out of 2 guys is nuts. No other team in the league came close to that.

Wait a second Chief. Considering the number of snaps Doom played, are you saying its far fetched to think a rookie could get 10 sacks or close to it in our scheme?

Maybe you should look at my post, I am not insinuating ridding of Doom, but I respectfully disagree that a pass rusher can't come in and contribute in our scheme.

Again playing Devils Advocate here..With that extra cap room, we could upgrade other positions to increase depth and effectiveness of the scheme. DT could be one of those positions..

MagicHef
02-04-2013, 02:57 PM
Wait a second Chief. Considering the number of snaps Doom played, are you saying its far fetched to think a rookie could get 10 sacks or close to it in our scheme?

Maybe you should look at my post, I am not insinuating ridding of Doom, but I respectfully disagree that a pass rusher can't come in and contribute in our scheme.

Again playing Devils Advocate here..With that extra cap room, we could upgrade other positions to increase depth and effectiveness of the scheme. DT could be one of those positions..

Extremely far fetched. Find a player taken at #28 or later that has ever had 10 sacks their rookie season.

Bmore Manning
02-04-2013, 03:00 PM
That means we can generate sacks from positions outside of DE and SOLB...

Our DLine had 9 sacks outside of Doom.. That's a problem.

Personally I want to upgrade the pass rush, I'm not as enamored with it as some are. And I don't think cutting or trading Doom helps towards that goal.. But I do enjoy a team concept of pressure much like the Bengals, where the pressure comes from all over the DLine. And they don't have high priced pass rushers at the moment..

Bmore Manning
02-04-2013, 03:10 PM
Extremely far fetched. Find a player taken at #28 or later that has ever had 10 sacks their rookie season.

Wait a second.. If hypothetically we traded Doom, and signed Melton and Knighton with that cap room, and drafted an Oakfor or Anash,

Had a DLine of Oakfor/Anash, Melton, Knighton, Wolfe, Miller off the edge. You don't think with an increase in overall quality, that a rookie pass rusher would stand a better chance in rotated snaps of getting close to 10 sacks?

A DLine of Doom, Vickerson, Bannan, Wolfe sounds better than Oakfor/Anash, Melton, Knighton, Wolfe? Same cap figures..

The idea of this is not top heavy contract players. 11.5 sacks with his 1000 snaps is ok, but throw in that disruptive DT duo and a rookie would look like an all-star.

But we aren't going to trade Doom, so we need to bolster the pass rush another way, either with upgraded DTs, or an upgraded SDE and a more disruptive NT to compliment Wolfe who would be playing DT.

Drunken.Broncoholic
02-04-2013, 03:12 PM
Team concept is what the niners benefited from. When Justin smith went down production as a whole went down for that line. Aldon was playing hurt too I think. But his production dropped big time without Justin smith.


When those TV deals roll through teams have to spend up to that cap. And that cap is going to be huge.

BroncoMan4ever
02-04-2013, 03:46 PM
10 + sacks and a bunch of forced FF.... Im going to say hell no, he is invaluable as a pass rusher, you dont give those kinds of guys away.

but it does deserve a discussion for offseason pruposes..

I agree. We shouldn't move him but I would like to see his deal restructured. Most of his guaranteed money is probably paid out so he would probably be ok with a restructuring tht adds a season or 2 to the deal and makes more of the remaining deal guaranteed

BroncoMan4ever
02-04-2013, 03:52 PM
Another thing to remember is that we may be getting.an upgrade to the DL when we get Hunter back. His offseason was making it seem like he was going to go beast mode before injury. Bookend him and Doom with Wolfe and an upgraded DT In the middle and we have a major upgrade in talent.

Requiem
02-04-2013, 04:00 PM
No more Mack Brown defensive ends.

Bmore Manning
02-04-2013, 05:20 PM
No more Mack Brown defensive ends.

Did they rep bomb you? Cause Oakfor is talented.

MagicHef
02-04-2013, 05:38 PM
Wait a second.. If hypothetically we traded Doom, and signed Melton and Knighton with that cap room, and drafted an Oakfor or Anash,

Had a DLine of Oakfor/Anash, Melton, Knighton, Wolfe, Miller off the edge. You don't think with an increase in overall quality, that a rookie pass rusher would stand a better chance in rotated snaps of getting close to 10 sacks?

A DLine of Doom, Vickerson, Bannan, Wolfe sounds better than Oakfor/Anash, Melton, Knighton, Wolfe? Same cap figures..

The idea of this is not top heavy contract players. 11.5 sacks with his 1000 snaps is ok, but throw in that disruptive DT duo and a rookie would look like an all-star.

But we aren't going to trade Doom, so we need to bolster the pass rush another way, either with upgraded DTs, or an upgraded SDE and a more disruptive NT to compliment Wolfe who would be playing DT.

Melton would be awesome. What cap numbers are you using for him and Knighton? Also, is Knighton really any good? 2 sacks, appears to be a worse run defender than Bannan or Vickerson, got benched in the middle of the season?

However, I hate the idea of spending resources to not improve a position. Especially if it's our first rounder we're using. I'd rather keep Elvis, resign Bannan or Vickerson for cheap, stretch the budget for Melton, and not use our first rounder on replacing a great player. Instead, use it on... MLB for example.

And yes, it is a huge stretch to think a rookie picked at #28 could come in and get 10 sacks. If you could reference such a thing ever happening in the history of the league, maybe it wouldn't seem so far-fetched.

DENVERDUI55
02-04-2013, 05:40 PM
Did they rep bomb you? Cause Oakfor is talented.

He is about the only one that has panned out recently.

KevinJames
02-04-2013, 05:43 PM
Yeah lets move our best pass rusher whos been pretty damn consistent ever since he was drafted!

Hell no Elvis is one of a kind the man eats, sleeps and breathes football, you can't always find someone who plays with the kind of passion Elvis plays with and you can't always find such a unique pass rushing DE.

Don't restructure either his pay is fine, hes lived up to his contract. Think about how many of Von's sacks you seen Doom right there with him, why break up the best pass rushing tandem in the NFL after leading the NFL in sacks?

Bmore Manning
02-04-2013, 09:25 PM
Melton would be awesome. What cap numbers are you using for him and Knighton? Also, is Knighton really any good? 2 sacks, appears to be a worse run defender than Bannan or Vickerson, got benched in the middle of the season?

However, I hate the idea of spending resources to not improve a position. Especially if it's our first rounder we're using. I'd rather keep Elvis, resign Bannan or Vickerson for cheap, stretch the budget for Melton, and not use our first rounder on replacing a great player. Instead, use it on... MLB for example.

And yes, it is a huge stretch to think a rookie picked at #28 could come in and get 10 sacks. If you could reference such a thing ever happening in the history of the league, maybe it wouldn't seem so far-fetched.

Knighton is talented, he's a disruptive two gapper. A change of scenery may do him good, especially reuniting him with Del Rio on a championship caliber team. He would provide more push than Bannan, but he's not going to run plays down like Vickerson. But I like him over Bannan and it's not close, he may come here at 2-3 million a year..

I agree with you that we should keep Doom, and bolster the interior pass rush. I don't see anyway we can afford Melton under our current circumstances, he's going to be a 4-6 million cap hit easy.. The numbers for he and Knighton were hypothets, but combined would cost less than Doom. But I don't want to kick him to the curb. A more productive interior rush will help Doom just like it would a rookie DE and Doom is proven..

I have been advocating a free agent MLB to see what Irving/Johnson/mid round draft pick can do. I like Larry Grant of the 49ers, he's great on special teams, and really flashed when Willis missed sometime last season. I believe the front office feels Irving can still be that guy, so he will get every opportunity. In the draft I would double down on DTs.. Short in the first, Williams in the second. Bring back Bannan and Vick on cheap rentals, integrate the rookies into snaps as the heir apparents.. Or you draft a SDE replacement and a disruptive NT. Either way, you have to spend two picks, because, Bannan and Vick is not going to upgrade the DLine, in theory they would regress because of age, and nowhere to go but down after last seasons career year for Vick..

Play2win
02-04-2013, 11:48 PM
This is even a conversation ???

Taco John
02-05-2013, 12:42 AM
I've been thinking about this one off and on all day trying to figure out what benefit we'd have in moving him - even at this salary level. I couldn't come up with anything. Seems to me that rocking the boat would be pretty stupid. Maybe we restructure him - but for what benefit at this point? If we have a specific player we need the money for, then I could see it. But if we're just trying to save a buck, I think it sends the wrong message to the team.

Doggcow
02-05-2013, 01:03 AM
I've been thinking about this one off and on all day trying to figure out what benefit we'd have in moving him - even at this salary level. I couldn't come up with anything. Seems to me that rocking the boat would be pretty stupid. Maybe we restructure him - but for what benefit at this point? If we have a specific player we need the money for, then I could see it. But if we're just trying to save a buck, I think it sends the wrong message to the team.

This. We don't gain anything from moving an extremely effective player. Even if he's making a little bit more than the Omane thinks he deserves... We won't be able to just replace him, and we NEED him. If anything, the Ravens game showed we need MORE pass rushers.

lonestar
02-05-2013, 01:07 AM
I would like to have some intelligent discussion about this subject - seeing as how we're in Offseason Mode and there's not much else going on.

I am curious to get everyone's thoughts:

Should the Broncos actively look to move Elvis Dumervil this offseason?

Don't get me wrong - I love Elvis. I love having him on this team. However, I do not feel that he is currently worth the amount he is getting paid. I am open to this line of thought based on two factors:

1) His production has not improved to where we hoped it would after his string of injuries and his play does not merit the salary he is due to make.

2) The Broncos need all the help they can get money wise if we are going to keep this team contending for a championship for the next 2-3 seasons.

I do believe we have a servicable replacement already waiting in Robert Ayers, and more help can be brought in via draft/free agency.

If we can move his salary AND get draft picks or a good player in return, it is a win/win for the Broncos.

Is it time for the Broncos to persue this move? Should they ask him to re-structure?

Yoi do realize that his contract calls for a 43 million guarantee. Of which he has received 28 million this past two year. Plus he is owed 1.6 of prorated bonus money. So instead of paying him 12.5 this coming year you want to cut him which would mean about 15 in guaranteed money comes due as well as his 1.6 bonus money all of which hits the cap this year.

Meaning we spend 4 million odd dollars more for not having him on the team?

Smooth move exlax.

elsid13
02-05-2013, 02:36 AM
Less interesting in move Dumervil, then getting him some help to spot him during games. I though the last couple of years he has worn down toward the end of the season and would benefit from someone playing 10 to 15 snaps for him early in the season to keep him fresh.

MagicHef
02-05-2013, 06:54 AM
Knighton is talented, he's a disruptive two gapper. A change of scenery may do him good, especially reuniting him with Del Rio on a championship caliber team. He would provide more push than Bannan, but he's not going to run plays down like Vickerson. But I like him over Bannan and it's not close, he may come here at 2-3 million a year..

I agree with you that we should keep Doom, and bolster the interior pass rush. I don't see anyway we can afford Melton under our current circumstances, he's going to be a 4-6 million cap hit easy.. The numbers for he and Knighton were hypothets, but combined would cost less than Doom. But I don't want to kick him to the curb. A more productive interior rush will help Doom just like it would a rookie DE and Doom is proven..

I have been advocating a free agent MLB to see what Irving/Johnson/mid round draft pick can do. I like Larry Grant of the 49ers, he's great on special teams, and really flashed when Willis missed sometime last season. I believe the front office feels Irving can still be that guy, so he will get every opportunity. In the draft I would double down on DTs.. Short in the first, Williams in the second. Bring back Bannan and Vick on cheap rentals, integrate the rookies into snaps as the heir apparents.. Or you draft a SDE replacement and a disruptive NT. Either way, you have to spend two picks, because, Bannan and Vick is not going to upgrade the DLine, in theory they would regress because of age, and nowhere to go but down after last seasons career year for Vick..

Bannan made $1 million last season. If we're going to spend more to replace him with Knighton (who looks to be about even with Vickerson, talent wise), I'd much rather forget Knighton and spend a few extra million for Melton, even if that meant he was the only change we made to the DL.

I think you might be disappointed with the attention that gets shown to DT this offseason. I don't think it will be a priority.

TonyR
02-05-2013, 07:03 AM
I've been thinking about this one...

TJ, is "Isaac" you?

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/look-for-dumervil-to-stick-around-at-current-pay-lard

Beantown Bronco
02-05-2013, 07:11 AM
I think you might be disappointed with the attention that gets shown to DT this offseason. I don't think it will be a priority.

Why should this year be any different? :)

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-05-2013, 07:14 AM
TJ, is "Isaac" you?

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/look-for-dumervil-to-stick-around-at-current-pay-lard

Sure looks like the OP to me.

TonyR
02-05-2013, 07:20 AM
Sure looks like the OP to me.

Ah, yes, now that you mention it.

Requiem
02-05-2013, 07:28 AM
Did they rep bomb you? Cause Oakfor is talented.

I never argued he wasn't, but after years of seeing Mack Brown DL, especially defensive ends (outside of Orakpo, who is 3-4 OLB) who could not translate to the NFL -- I am very skeptical. None of them have performed. I remember being on Tim Crowder's bandwagon because he had all the athletic potential in the world, but the fact is he never put it together and IIRC, is now out of the league or was shortly after his stint in Tampa.

Okafor had a great season and a tremendous bowl game and really stepped up with Jeffcoat getting injured. He improved over his junior season. I think Okafor is a prototypical strong side DE in the NFL and I just don't see the point in spending a first round pick on a guy who is going to be playing LDE when this draft is loaded with talent on the DL. There are about four other defensive ends I like better than him at this point in time.

Boobs McGee
02-05-2013, 07:38 AM
TJ, is "Isaac" you?

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/look-for-dumervil-to-stick-around-at-current-pay-lard

From that article, take a look at that link...COME OOOOOOOOON PHILLY HOME OPENER!!!!

Boobs McGee
02-05-2013, 07:38 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/strange-true-last-four-super-bowl-winners-played-160300198--nfl.html

Here's the link

gyldenlove
02-05-2013, 07:41 AM
I've been thinking about this one off and on all day trying to figure out what benefit we'd have in moving him - even at this salary level. I couldn't come up with anything. Seems to me that rocking the boat would be pretty stupid. Maybe we restructure him - but for what benefit at this point? If we have a specific player we need the money for, then I could see it. But if we're just trying to save a buck, I think it sends the wrong message to the team.

You are not going to save any money by restructuring Dumervil. He is on about 12 mill this year, 10 next year and 8 the one after that. If you turn say 8 million into bonus this year and prorate it he would be down to about 6 this year but up to 13 next and 11 the one after that, you negate all the savings you get at the end of the deal and since you are paying the same cash you are not freeing up any budgetary resources.

Bmore Manning
02-05-2013, 07:46 AM
I never argued he wasn't, but after years of seeing Mack Brown DL, especially defensive ends (outside of Orakpo, who is 3-4 OLB) who could not translate to the NFL -- I am very skeptical. None of them have performed. I remember being on Tim Crowder's bandwagon because he had all the athletic potential in the world, but the fact is he never put it together and IIRC, is now out of the league or was shortly after his stint in Tampa.

Okafor had a great season and a tremendous bowl game and really stepped up with Jeffcoat getting injured. He improved over his junior season. I think Okafor is a prototypical strong side DE in the NFL and I just don't see the point in spending a first round pick on a guy who is going to be playing LDE when this draft is loaded with talent on the DL. There are about four other defensive ends I like better than him at this point in time.

I can't argue with that. I was being more hypothetical then literal..

MagicHef
02-05-2013, 07:47 AM
Why should this year be any different? :)

Very true. Also, both our HC and DC have histories of not using resources on DT.

Traveler
02-05-2013, 08:06 AM
Bannan made $1 million last season. If we're going to spend more to replace him with Knighton (who looks to be about even with Vickerson, talent wise), I'd much rather forget Knighton and spend a few extra million for Melton, even if that meant he was the only change we made to the DL.

I think you might be disappointed with the attention that gets shown to DT this offseason. I don't think it will be a priority.

What about the kid from Detroit? Sammie Lee Hill is also a FA. He could start for most NFL teams. Much better than Knighton or Melton IMO.

I just want the team to be able to generate pressure both inside and out. We are set on the outside with Dumervil & Miller. Wolfe has shown he can get pressure inside, but still gets pushed around a liitle in the run game. We need a DT that can do both.

Who is the best DT in this years draft? One that is both stout against the run and has shown he can also generate sacks from the interior.

phibacka31
02-05-2013, 08:06 AM
Getting rid of Doom makes zero sense... Another great plan by the mane... I would agree that getting another DL would be great for depth and pass rushing! I'm still holding out hope that Irving comes through. He did look better in his very limited action. I would be all for getting another stud pass rushing DE someone like Datone Jones would be A OK in my book. Or someone like William Gholston later in the draft.

Bmore Manning
02-05-2013, 08:10 AM
Very true. Also, both our HC and DC have histories of not using resources on DT.

I will probably be disappointed. I think it's a position that needs upgrading.. This is difficult, I like Wolfes roll at DE but I think he could be effective at DT..

Bmore Manning
02-05-2013, 08:16 AM
What about the kid from Detroit? Sammie Lee Hill is also a FA. He could start for most NFL teams. Much better than Knighton or Melton IMO.

I just want the team to be able to generate pressure both inside and out. We are set on the outside with Dumervil & Miller. Wolfe has shown he can get pressure inside, but still gets pushed around a liitle in the run game. We need a DT that can do both.

Who is the best DT in this years draft? One that is both stout against the run and has shown he can also generate sacks from the interior.

Hill is not much better than Melton or Knighton..

MagicHef
02-05-2013, 08:34 AM
What about the kid from Detroit? Sammie Lee Hill is also a FA. He could start for most NFL teams. Much better than Knighton or Melton IMO.

I just want the team to be able to generate pressure both inside and out. We are set on the outside with Dumervil & Miller. Wolfe has shown he can get pressure inside, but still gets pushed around a liitle in the run game. We need a DT that can do both.

Who is the best DT in this years draft? One that is both stout against the run and has shown he can also generate sacks from the interior.

Wolfe was a rookie, of course he got pushed around. I wouldn't be surprised if he played inside more, and Hunter/Ayers/Jackson played at DE.

If you are looking for a DT that can provide pressure and stay stout against the run, that's Melton.

TheReverend
02-05-2013, 08:41 AM
Hill is not much better than Melton or Knighton..

WTF...

Hill isn't CLOSE to Knighton's class and not even worthy to breath the same air as Melton.

Bmore Manning
02-05-2013, 09:43 AM
WTF...

Hill isn't CLOSE to Knighton's class and not even worthy to breath the same air as Melton.

I was trying to be nice to Traveler. He said Samie Lee Hill was much better than both of them.. I think it came of like I was agreeing? But deff wasn't.

Houshyamama
02-05-2013, 09:46 AM
cut him and trade for revis

Hilarious!

DENVERDUI55
02-05-2013, 09:51 AM
This is just a made up scenerio but if involving Doom in a trade for Revis and then sign Paul Kruger I would be all for that.

Heyneck
02-05-2013, 10:14 AM
This is just a made up scenerio but if involving Doom in a trade for Revis and then sign Paul Kruger I would be all for that.

Dumb like a blonde. Getting Revis to a long term contract would cost us way more than paying Doom his worth. That Dude is looking to get paid like the top DEF player in the history of the game. You want to pony up another 100 mill contract? or say something close to a 4 year 60 mill contract? Plus the 5-6 mill per year that Kruger will get?

Not worth it. Keep building around our great pass rush. If you have such a big hard on for Revis, we could always dangle our 1st pick and see what else they are asking for. But in no way trade Doom for Revis. We aren't guaranteed at landing the top FA's DE in the market unless we overpay for them. That would mean over paying for Revis and the DE that would come in and replace Doom.

MagicHef
02-05-2013, 11:39 AM
WTF...

Hill isn't CLOSE to Knighton's class and not even worthy to breath the same air as Melton.

What do you think of Desmond Bryant?

DENVERDUI55
02-05-2013, 11:48 AM
You want to pony up another 100 mill contract? or say something close to a 4 year 60 mill contract? Plus the 5-6 mill per year that Kruger will get?
.

Kruger at 5-6 million would be as steal.

TonyR
02-05-2013, 12:07 PM
Detailed post on Doom's contract:

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/broncos-style-why-the-dumervil-contract-is-a-good-one

Bmore Manning
02-05-2013, 12:12 PM
What do you think of Desmond Bryant?

I think they make him a priority, he's arguably the best DT on the roster. Kelly and Seymour will probably both be gone.

DBroncos4life
02-05-2013, 12:39 PM
Something to think about moving forward is 3 teams will be switching to the 3-4..Eagles, Saints, and Bronws and one is going to the 4-3 the Cowboys. That changes how they draft and what they do in free agency.

lonestar
02-05-2013, 02:38 PM
Less interesting in move Dumervil, then getting him some help to spot him during games. I though the last couple of years he has worn down toward the end of the season and would benefit from someone playing 10 to 15 snaps for him early in the season to keep him fresh.

No offense but frankly you do not pay a guy that kind of money to take plays off.

While I'm all for getting him help on the DL other than natural rotation of the guys, spelling him to save him from wearing down late in the season pleeeeeeease

lonestar
02-05-2013, 02:38 PM
Less interesting in move Dumervil, then getting him some help to spot him during games. I though the last couple of years he has worn down toward the end of the season and would benefit from someone playing 10 to 15 snaps for him early in the season to keep him fresh.

No offense but frankly you do not pay a guy that kind of money to take plays off.

While I'm all for getting him help on the DL other than natural rotation of the guys, spelling him to save him from wearing down late in the season pleeeeeeease

BMarsh615
02-05-2013, 03:09 PM
2011 & 2012 were the high points of his contract, salary wise. He gets cheaper every year from now on. Also, he is one of the 10 best passrushers in the league (or at least was this season).

Keep him.

I agree we should keep him but Denver still has to pay him $30M over the next three years, $12M this year, $10M next year and $8M in 2015.

Jetmeck
02-05-2013, 03:11 PM
10 + sacks and a bunch of forced FF.... Im going to say hell no, he is invaluable as a pass rusher, you dont give those kinds of guys away.

but it does deserve a discussion for offseason pruposes..


aCTUALLY this a well deserved discussion.

He is our best pass rushing lineman and he can't get it done regularly and last few games not even when it counted the most.

He needs some d- line help..................

Agamemnon
02-05-2013, 03:37 PM
The very existence of this thread is proof that humanity is too stupid to live...

Bacchus
02-05-2013, 03:42 PM
The very existence of this thread is proof that humanity is too stupid to live...

I so agree, in no way, no matter how you look at it Denver does not get better by cutting Doom.

TheReverend
02-05-2013, 04:47 PM
What do you think of Desmond Bryant?

I like him, but I don't think it'd be much of an upgrade over our current depth and youth tends to cost more.

To put it another way: He's never been a guy I've worried about Denver game planning against, and he'd be a nice addition, but nothing I'd be really excited about.

MagicHef
02-05-2013, 04:47 PM
I agree we should keep him but Denver still has to pay him $30M over the next three years, $12M this year, $10M next year and $8M in 2015.

... and?

Minnesota has to pay Allen $32 million over the next two years.

KC has to pay Hali $39 million over the next three years.

Dallas has to pay Ware $43 million over the next three years.

ThirtyDegrees
02-05-2013, 05:18 PM
Elite 4-3 weakside rushers are among the hardest players to find in football.

Getting rid of Dumervil would be one of the dumbest moves this team has ever made.

gyldenlove
02-05-2013, 05:28 PM
Hell, the Bengals paid Frostee Rucker 13 million for his 4 sacks this season playing the same position.

cutthemdown
02-05-2013, 05:40 PM
10 sack guys hard to find i vote no. Why mess the outside pass rush. Broncos just need some stud inside linebacker types that can stuff the run, drop into the deep middle, and blitx the QB. They may not care if he played or is considered a true MLB.

lonestar
02-05-2013, 05:55 PM
I agree we should keep him but Denver still has to pay him $30M over the next three years, $12M this year, $10M next year and $8M in 2015.

None of which is guaranteed so if he does not perform this year we can cut him loose and only be out 1.5 ( which was already paid ) of the rest of his signing bonus.

Lets hope he only makes a half a million per sack the coming years. Opposed to more than a million he made this past year.

lonestar
02-05-2013, 06:02 PM
10 sack guys hard to find i vote no. Why mess the outside pass rush. Broncos just need some stud inside linebacker types that can stuff the run, drop into the deep middle, and blitx the QB. They may not care if he played or is considered a true MLB.

Ill call John and let him know CUT voted no.

I'm sure he will make his decisions based on that.

Kidding aside every off season we have to wade through stupid threads like this.

How many days till the season starts?

MagicHef
02-05-2013, 06:02 PM
None of which is guaranteed so if he does not perform this year we can cut him loose and only be out 1.5 ( which was already paid ) of the rest of his signing bonus.

Lets hope he only makes a half a million per sack the coming years. Opposed to more than a million he made this past year.

I don't think he'll have 24 sacks this season. Hopefully you won't be too disappointed.

Just kidding, of course you will!

lonestar
02-05-2013, 08:26 PM
I don't think he'll have 24 sacks this season. Hopefully you won't be too disappointed.

Just kidding, of course you will!

But would in not be nicer to have twenty instead of half that number.

He had 17 a year or so ago with basically no help.

24 is not out of the question nor would be 18.

Btw I'm not remotely one of those morons that are calling. To cut him. If yoi rapead any on my posts in this thread it is just the opposite.
Cutting does not save a a dime this year.

Now if he does not produce next year 2013 cutting hgh is time next year saves us about 10 million. And 8 million the year after.

extralife
02-05-2013, 08:33 PM
another day, another lonestar disaster

SportinOne
02-05-2013, 09:30 PM
What did we achieve with having Champ with no pass rush under the Shanny years get us?

I love this.. this is an old-school OM talking point that takes me back.. we used to argue about this very concept ALL THE TIME.. and people still didn't get it.. i've always completely agreed with this concept and it would seem that it's pretty logical.

I think we need to re post the articles about how we were using DOOM this year to feed Von so that people develop more of an appreciation for the guy. No way in hell you get rid of him.

Here's a better question... Doom or Bailey, who do you cut if you have to cut one? And no.. it's not that simple of a question and i'm sorry but Bailey is no longer untouchable.

MagicHef
02-05-2013, 10:22 PM
But would in not be nicer to have twenty instead of half that number.

He had 17 a year or so ago with basically no help.

24 is not out of the question nor would be 18.

Btw I'm not remotely one of those morons that are calling. To cut him. If yoi rapead any on my posts in this thread it is just the opposite.
Cutting does not save a a dime this year.

Now if he does not produce next year 2013 cutting hgh is time next year saves us about 10 million. And 8 million the year after.




Sure. If he got 17 once, he should be able to do it again easily, right?

Do you know how many people have had multiple 17+ sack seasons?

5.

Reggie White, Richard Dent, Mark Gastineau, Michael Strahan and Demarcus Ware.

If Elvis never has another huge sack season again, he will have to live with the eternal shame of having the same number of 17+ sack seasons as known slackers Lawrence Taylor, Bruce Smith, Derrick Thomas and Jason Taylor.

Of course, if he did have another 17+ sack season, it would cement him as one of the best pass rushers in NFL history.

But yeah, he's probably not worth what he's earning.

lonestar
02-05-2013, 11:05 PM
Sure. If he got 17 once, he should be able to do it again easily, right?

Do you know how many people have had multiple 17+ sack seasons?

5.

Reggie White, Richard Dent, Mark Gastineau, Michael Strahan and Demarcus Ware.

If Elvis never has another huge sack season again, he will have to live with the eternal shame of having the same number of 17+ sack seasons as known slackers Lawrence Taylor, Bruce Smith, Derrick Thomas and Jason Taylor.

Of course, if he did have another 17+ sack season, it would cement him as one of the best pass rushers in NFL history.

But yeah, he's probably not worth what he's earning.
Hey twit your the one throwing 24 out there.

I just stated I'd hope to see him make just .5 million per sack.

Nothing disparaging other than I'd love him to have a few more great years.

Your the one bad mouthing him, like he does not deserve his money.

lonestar
02-05-2013, 11:07 PM
another day, another lonestar disaster

Ah another post adding nothing to the conversation other than a personal attack.

An OM special. Only at OM.

MagicHef
02-06-2013, 07:25 AM
Hey twit your the one throwing 24 out there.

I just stated I'd hope to see him make just .5 million per sack.

Nothing disparaging other than I'd love him to have a few more great years.

Your the one bad mouthing him, like he does not deserve his money.

ROFL!

Requiem
02-06-2013, 09:24 AM
another day, another lonestar disaster

The broke the mold with him. The tard mold. Hilarious!

ZONA
02-06-2013, 10:32 AM
I think Miller and Dumerville could be more devestating with a DT that can collapse the pocket. Denver's fierce passrush can be neutralized if the quarterback can step up in the pocket. Keeping Doom is a must if Denver wants to win the Super Bowl in the next two years. With Denver's short window you need to keep all of their best players to have a realistic shot at winning.

I've been saying this very thing for awhile now. In fact, I remember getting grilled by this forum for suggesting Doom has had a good year and not a fantastic year. We do need that rush up the middle and Doom will be that much more effective. Right up the middle is where Broncos need most help (DT, MLB, Safety). We're great on the edges. Just need to shore up the middle some.

Agamemnon
02-06-2013, 11:21 AM
Hey twit your the one throwing 24 out there.

I just stated I'd hope to see him make just .5 million per sack.

Nothing disparaging other than I'd love him to have a few more great years.

Your the one bad mouthing him, like he does not deserve his money.

Err...if he's making 12 million next year he'd have to get 24 sacks for it to come out to .5 million per sack. Not sure why you are calling someone else a twit when you're the one that doesn't seem to be able to do basic math.