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View Full Version : How to get seperation and "beat" Champ Bailey


Taco John
01-14-2013, 11:26 PM
I can't get this to loop, so I'm not embedding it... You can reload the page here to see the gif. Basically, Smith pushed off - big time.

http://i.imgur.com/d2pkR.gif

Taco John
01-14-2013, 11:31 PM
Bottom line for me - there were a lot of non-calls in this game, and that's simply because these refs were going to "let the players play." That means the most aggressive team was going to win. And they did.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-15-2013, 12:12 AM
You can continue to look for some over arching narrative to why we lost, but it's a number of random things, a huge fluke, and bad luck

UberBroncoMan
01-15-2013, 12:18 AM
Bottom line for me - there were a lot of non-calls in this game, and that's simply because these refs were going to "let the players play." That means the most aggressive team was going to win. And they did.

That may be...but then I don't understand the multitude of holding calls we obtained over them.

Mogulseeker
01-15-2013, 12:21 AM
That may be...but then I don't understand the multitude of holding calls we obtained over them.

This. Von was getting mauled.

misturanderson
01-15-2013, 12:49 AM
Bottom line for me - there were a lot of non-calls in this game, and that's simply because these refs were going to "let the players play." That means the most aggressive team was going to win. And they did.

The problem was that they only let the ravens' players play. There were multiple very questionable calls against the Broncos for pass interference and offensive holding and multiple very questionable no-calls in the ravens' favor for the same things.

I guess there were 2-3 questionable penalties against the ravens, but some of them seemed to be make-up calls for things that went against the Broncos a couple plays prior. I don't remember any being as egregiously wrong as the Kuper hold or the Champ PI either.

The fact that I (and several people in the gameday thread) was seriously worried that the Stokely catch would be overturned is evidence to how lopsided the officiating was. Just the fact that they sent Stokely's catch to replay was ridiculous, especially when they blew the next play dead 2 seconds after the snap.

Fedaykin
01-15-2013, 03:37 AM
Bottom line: the Ravens were here to win, and didn't mind playing dirty to get there. Illegal kicking practice, dirty play in the trenches (illegal use of hands rampantly), tripping, pushing off, etc.

Bought off or not, the refs let it happen.

TheReverend
01-15-2013, 04:58 AM
That's not a big time push-off, bud. Things like that happen on almost every play. Champ's one of my favorite Broncos all-time, but it is what it is... and it is a **** performance.

GreatBronco16
01-15-2013, 05:10 AM
That's not a big time push-off, bud. Things like that happen on almost every play. Champ's one of my favorite Broncos all-time, but it is what it is... and it is a **** performance.

I agree. Champ just could not keep up with the much faster WR. He had his way with Champ all night long.

WolfpackGuy
01-15-2013, 05:26 AM
It looked like he was expecting safety help on the first TD and the next long pass that was overthrown which also would've been a TD.

The second TD before the half was a good underthrow and catch, but does anyone yell "Ball!" when the ball's in the air?

I know it's hard chasing a guy all over the field, but I've seen Bailey have trouble from time to time being aware of the ball coming.

elsid13
01-15-2013, 05:32 AM
Champ always seem to have problem with select speed WR. When he was with the Redskins Amani Toomer, Champ would give up big plays all the time and remember Chad Johnson used to do the same thing to him, too. Fortunately the speed WR with enough techinque to break Champ's pressing skills are rare in the league.

CEH
01-15-2013, 05:50 AM
I can't get this to loop, so I'm not embedding it... You can reload the page here to see the gif. Basically, Smith pushed off - big time.

http://i.imgur.com/d2pkR.gif

I want to see the beginning of the play. My bet is Champ did not get his hands on Smith early on and a top 3 speed WR ran right by him several times

socalorado
01-15-2013, 05:54 AM
That's not a big time push-off, bud. Things like that happen on almost every play. Champ's one of my favorite Broncos all-time, but it is what it is... and it is a **** performance.

Yes. Champ was simply torched. It is what it is.
Jeez, guys. I love Champ as much as the next guy but,
deal with it. Accept it. Hes lost a step.
That doesnt mean hes not good.

TonyR
01-15-2013, 05:56 AM
To make myself feel better about champ I'm sticking with the completely speculative theory I've been floating that Champ either had the flu or was recovering from it so wasn't at full strength. I mean, it's possible, right?

TonyR
01-15-2013, 05:58 AM
Yes. Champ was simply torched. It is what it is.
Jeez, guys. I love Champ as much as the next guy but,
deal with it. Accept it. Hes lost a step.
That doesnt mean hes not good.

My problem with it is that he was so good all year, and very good in the first game against the Ravens. Why the bad game in this big spot? While on the other side we killed their DBs in the first game and couldn't separate in this one. Remember how Decker abused that guy in the regular season game against them? And then nothing doing this time around. The whole thing is just weird, and makes one wonder if something was up with Manning or perhaps maybe the cold was really bothering him.

TheReverend
01-15-2013, 06:16 AM
My problem with it is that he was so good all year, and very good in the first game against the Ravens. Why the bad game in this big spot? While on the other side we killed their DBs in the first game and couldn't separate in this one. Remember how Decker abused that guy in the regular season game against them? And then nothing doing this time around. The whole thing is just weird, and makes one wonder if something was up with Manning or perhaps maybe the cold was really bothering him.

Quick, name three big plays.

Bailey got both pro-bowl and all-pro honors on name recognition. Love him to death, but it's two deep safety time with him.

TonyR
01-15-2013, 06:23 AM
Quick, name three big plays.

Bailey got both pro-bowl and all-pro honors on name recognition. Love him to death, but it's two deep safety time with him.

I hear ya, but I guess my point is that he did a pretty good job limiting his man all year. On the whole he played very well this year, and per PFF put up his worst performance of the year in this game vs. his best game of the year against Baltimore in the regular season game.

On the evidence of a full season of play, Bailey had gone one-on-one with the best receiver of nearly every team Denver had faced. And, until Saturday it had worked every time. Bailey had a superb season. We voted him our 2nd Team All-Pro corner (an honor that was replicated in the AP All-Pro team released on Saturday) because he stood out on tape and this was reflected in the numbers too.

In terms of giving up first downs/touchdowns per coverage snap he was ranked fourth overall among corners, and of those above him, no one was given the same coverage responsibilities he had. On balls that traveled over 20 yards in the air he allowed only three to be completed all year, with none of these going for touchdowns. Covering the likes of Vincent Jackson, Andre Johnson, A.J. Green, Roddy White and Brandon Lloyd, Bailey gave up only 17 completions of more than 10 yards and a single touchdown all year. (bolding mine) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130114/peter-king-monday-morning-quarterback-divisional-playoffs/index.html#all

LRtagger
01-15-2013, 06:26 AM
It was a double move but I'm pretty sure he didnt push off

socalorado
01-15-2013, 06:26 AM
Quick, name three big plays.

Bailey got both pro-bowl and all-pro honors on name recognition. Love him to death, but it's two deep safety time with him.

I think it might be a tad early. There not ready to deal with the reality of the situation with Champ yet. This loss is clearly still in its early stages with alot of posters and i am not sure they can take the realization that its time for Champ to go to FS, and draft his replacement.
2 deep safety time. I like the hybrid Charles Woodson role for Champ myself.

ColoradoDarin
01-15-2013, 06:28 AM
Brushing off against Bailey's hand checking isn't pushing off.

ColoradoDarin
01-15-2013, 06:29 AM
I think it might be a tad early. There not ready to deal with the reality of the situation with Champ yet. This loss is clearly still in its early stages with alot of posters and i am not sure they can take the realization that its time for Champ to go to FS, and draft his replacement.
2 deep safety time. I like the hybrid Charles Woodson role for Champ myself.

I don't think Champ needs to be moved just yet, but he can't be left on an island any more and need safety help over the top.

TheReverend
01-15-2013, 06:32 AM
I hear ya, but I guess my point is that he did a pretty good job limiting his man all year. On the whole he played very well this year, and per PFF put up his worst performance of the year in this game vs. his best game of the year against Baltimore in the regular season game.

Holliday and Woodyard are like the only guys that DIDN'T put up their worst performance of the year.

PS. PFF is nothing shy of horrendous with "gray area" determinations. They need to stick to black and white facts where they're an excellent resource.

LRtagger
01-15-2013, 06:34 AM
The problem with that play is it was a direct result of the Tony Carter DPI which I think was ticky tack

TheReverend
01-15-2013, 06:35 AM
I think it might be a tad early. There not ready to deal with the reality of the situation with Champ yet. This loss is clearly still in its early stages with alot of posters and i am not sure they can take the realization that its time for Champ to go to FS, and draft his replacement.
2 deep safety time. I like the hybrid Charles Woodson role for Champ myself.

Whoa whoa whoa, I wasn't saying move him to safety. I'm saying we need to play two deep safeties on the back end to give him and the rest of our underneath coverage more help over the top.

socalorado
01-15-2013, 06:41 AM
I hear ya, but I guess my point is that he did a pretty good job limiting his man all year. On the whole he played very well this year, and per PFF put up his worst performance of the year in this game vs. his best game of the year against Baltimore in the regular season game.

(bolding mine) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20130114/peter-king-monday-morning-quarterback-divisional-playoffs/index.html#all

Tony, you do know that the BALT game earlier in the year was without many of there best players right?
Many of their players were also injured too.
BALT revamped O-line on Sat simply shut down DEN pass rush and because of this, Champ was torched all day. Flacco actually picked on Champ and really stayed away from Harris on bigger plays. Harris is younger and faster than Champ. Flacco wanted nothing to do with him.

The cheesy article by King can simply be reduced to this.
When DEN has its monster pass rush going, Champ looks great. When DEN doesnt have its monster pass rush going, Champ looks ordinary, and is
susceptible to being burned.

Now one might say that this is true of any CB, but it isnt. Revis doesnt need a pass rush. Champ WAS at one time the same calibur of player.
Not anymore. I love him as much as the next guy, but hes a liability against the opposing teams best WR.

socalorado
01-15-2013, 06:49 AM
Whoa whoa whoa, I wasn't saying move him to safety. I'm saying we need to play two deep safeties on the back end to give him and the rest of our underneath coverage more help over the top.

DEN apparently doesnt play deep safeties.
EVER.

I think its time to look at the charles Woodson position for Champ.
It plays to his strengths and his age.
Woodson plays the slot CB and covers TEs as well at the LOS.
He also will move back depending on his assesment of the QB at the LOS and move into a FS position to help or rove.
This allows Woodson to do what he does best, cover bigger,slower possesion recievers and TE's, and more importantly, jump routes.
But as a bonus being at the LOS so much, Woodson can also blitz from that position because like Bailey, hes a physical player that can attack and get to the QB, or also play in run coverage.

TonyR
01-15-2013, 06:50 AM
Tony, you do know that the BALT game earlier in the year was without many of there best players right?


I'm well aware of this, and your point is fair. But why did the Broncos allow one O-lineman to make that big of a difference. Isn't Yanda the only guy who was missing in the first game? Also, as I showed in a post above, Champ had a very good year overall. And any CB is going to have struggles when left on an island and the opposing QB isn't getting pressured.

BroncoInferno
01-15-2013, 06:54 AM
Bottom line for me - there were a lot of non-calls in this game, and that's simply because these refs were going to "let the players play." That means the most aggressive team was going to win. And they did.

Your premise is only valid under the assumption that the refs "let the players play" on both sides. Which they didn't. See the BS 3rd down PI call on Carter on the Ravens first drive (eventually leading to Smith's first TD), the BS PI on Bailey late in the game, etc.

socalorado
01-15-2013, 07:12 AM
I'm well aware of this, and your point is fair. But why did the Broncos allow one O-lineman to make that big of a difference. Isn't Yanda the only guy who was missing in the first game? Also, as I showed in a post above, Champ had a very good year overall. And any CB is going to have struggles when left on an island and the opposing QB isn't getting pressured.

No, thats the whole reason that there is such thing as a
"SHUT DOWN CORNER" He doesnt need any help from anyone at any time.
Champ used to be one of those guys. Darrel Revis, injury free, is 1 of those guys.
And BTW, almost everyone on this team had a good year. They won 13 games. I am sure theres plenty of awards and articles to go around, but the bottom line is, Champ is no longer a premier shut down corner when asked to go head to head regardless of a pass rush anymore.

Kaylore
01-15-2013, 07:15 AM
You can continue to look for some over arching narrative to why we lost, but it's a number of random things, a huge fluke, and bad luck

I said on the podcast that the only way we lose is if there was a perfect storm of failure at multiple levels coupled with critical injuries. That is exactly what happened. It is also why the Patriots will rape the Ravens.

TonyR
01-15-2013, 07:25 AM
No, thats the whole reason that there is such thing as a
"SHUT DOWN CORNER" He doesnt need any help from anyone at any time.
Champ used to be one of those guys. Darrel Revis, injury free, is 1 of those guys.
And BTW, almost everyone on this team had a good year. They won 13 games. I am sure theres plenty of awards and articles to go around, but the bottom line is, Champ is no longer a premier shut down corner when asked to go head to head regardless of a pass rush anymore.

I hear ya. But, mostly for the sake of argument/discussion, the Giants won two Super Bowls in recent years without a "shutdown corner", which they got away with primarily because their front 7 applied enough pressure. Shutdown CB's are a luxury and don't grow on trees. Do the Ravens have one? How about the Pats (Talib?)? If the point is that Champs needs help against elite receivers then I agree. If it's that he's washed up and needs to be replaced I do not.

DENVERDUI55
01-15-2013, 07:26 AM
That's not a big time push-off, bud. Things like that happen on almost every play. Champ's one of my favorite Broncos all-time, but it is what it is... and it is a **** performance.

Rev hit the nail on the head. Bailey does this every once in awhile. I think this is is second worst game ever covering but the worst game when you take in the importance of the game. Jerry Porter in the snow was the worst for me.

WolfpackGuy
01-15-2013, 07:38 AM
Rev hit the nail on the head. Bailey does this every once in awhile. I think this is is second worst game ever covering but the worst game when you take in the importance of the game. Jerry Porter in the snow was the worst for me.

I dunno.

Chad Johnson earlier in 2004 was a pretty ugly performance.

socalorado
01-15-2013, 07:59 AM
I hear ya. But, mostly for the sake of argument/discussion, the Giants won two Super Bowls in recent years without a "shutdown corner", which they got away with primarily because their front 7 applied enough pressure. Shutdown CB's are a luxury and don't grow on trees. Do the Ravens have one? How about the Pats (Talib?)? If the point is that Champs needs help against elite receivers then I agree. If it's that he's washed up and needs to be replaced I do not.

No, dude. Champ is not washed up. Cmon, man.
Hes clearly lost a step. Age.
However, DEN does need to take into consideration
that shut down CBs dont exactly grow on trees and
if they can get one at this point, they should be
considering it. Champ will need to eventually be replaced.
And i agree that if a team wants to draft DE's and Dts and
just go with that philosophy, then by all means do it!
I love the way the NYG have just kept on drafting DE's
even though they already were loaded on the D-line.
But then they do go draft Prince Amukamara in the 1st too
didnt they!?! They still addressed their secondary at CB.

Rohirrim
01-15-2013, 08:08 AM
Only because of Flacco's bad throw did Champ not get torched for a third TD and another 70 yards.

Mediator12
01-15-2013, 08:28 AM
My problem is, why is Champ playing those coverages in the first place?

Everyone is all over JDR and the Job he did this season, but he blew it Saturday in gameplanning, adjustments, and preparation for BAL. Champ did play woefully awful yesterday, but really only on the deep balls. In fact, the defense gave up more big plays in this game, than it did the whole second half of the season. They gave up 4 big plays: 3 passes over 40 yards and one run over 30 yards in the game! If they simply keep BAL from making those big plays, chances are they score 13 or 17 points in this game instead of 38. All four of those big plays lead to TD's as well. No FG's or big stops for the defense this game, and they had their worst 3rd down conversion % since NE.

Lots of blame to go around for this one, but the brilliant second half defensive adjustments they came up with all year were nowhere to be seen. In fact, they got worse instead of better in the second half.

24champ
01-15-2013, 09:05 AM
In this game, there was zero pressure on Flacco when it comes time to throwing a deep pass. The secondary deserves their share of the blame in this mess, but the front seven are just as accountable for it. Von Miller and Dumervil didn't do diddly squat in this game. Half a sack is all Von and Dumervil can muster in this game? Bull****.

DENVERDUI55
01-15-2013, 09:28 AM
I dunno.

Chad Johnson earlier in 2004 was a pretty ugly performance.

Agreed he did make a great pick in that game though so I make that his 3rd worst.

cabronco
01-15-2013, 09:55 AM
In this game, there was zero pressure on Flacco when it comes time to throwing a deep pass. The secondary deserves their share of the blame in this mess, but the front seven are just as accountable for it. Von Miller and Dumervil didn't do diddly squat in this game. Half a sack is all Von and Dumervil can muster in this game? Bull****.


This^ We need to find a player or two that can get push up the middle, especially on 3rd downs. I know they're hard to find but its key to having a great defense. Flacco had a clean pocket almost all day to wait for his receivers to go long. They got pressure on Manning up the middle whcih helped them win the game. Our run defense was very good, now I hope they address a pash rush up the gut !

TheReverend
01-15-2013, 10:56 AM
My problem is, why is Champ playing those coverages in the first place?

Everyone is all over JDR and the Job he did this season, but he blew it Saturday in gameplanning, adjustments, and preparation for BAL. Champ did play woefully awful yesterday, but really only on the deep balls. In fact, the defense gave up more big plays in this game, than it did the whole second half of the season. They gave up 4 big plays: 3 passes over 40 yards and one run over 30 yards in the game! If they simply keep BAL from making those big plays, chances are they score 13 or 17 points in this game instead of 38. All four of those big plays lead to TD's as well. No FG's or big stops for the defense this game, and they had their worst 3rd down conversion % since NE.

Lots of blame to go around for this one, but the brilliant second half defensive adjustments they came up with all year were nowhere to be seen. In fact, they got worse instead of better in the second half.

110% the bold.

If you're going to sell out back end coverage to scheme pressure, then you better generate some ****ing pressure.

BroncoMan4ever
01-15-2013, 12:26 PM
Bottom line: the Ravens were here to win, and didn't mind playing dirty to get there. Illegal kicking practice, dirty play in the trenches (illegal use of hands rampantly), tripping, pushing off, etc.

Bought off or not, the refs let it happen.

This is how playoff football should be played. Let the players play. Baltimore was more physical and played a better game.

OrangeCrush2724
01-15-2013, 12:52 PM
This^ We need to find a player or two that can get push up the middle, especially on 3rd downs. I know they're hard to find but its key to having a great defense. Flacco had a clean pocket almost all day to wait for his receivers to go long. They got pressure on Manning up the middle whcih helped them win the game. Our run defense was very good, now I hope they address a pash rush up the gut !

I can't remember ever Dumerville making a sack with the game on the line. I could be mistaken, but it seems all of his sacks come in garbage time.

razorwire77
01-15-2013, 01:01 PM
I can't remember ever Dumerville making a sack with the game on the line. I could be mistaken, but it seems all of his sacks come in garbage time.

He was basically tackled twice when he had a clear path to Flacco.

Mouth
01-15-2013, 01:31 PM
The three times champ got beat deep, he failed to "bump" even though he was playing bump and run. Watch the plays for yourself. all three times he didn't re-direct the WR at the LoS.

pootz22
01-15-2013, 03:35 PM
I didn't get to watch more than 15 min of the beginning and the end so could someone tell me if Moreno was injured when someone was holding his leg in the pile?